/siberia/ - Off-topic

>abortion is immoral

Fuck outta here with that moralism uygha

I agree. I am not in favor of banning abortion, I think it has a practical necessity, however, pro-choice arguments are dehumanizing and also become vulgar when liberals try to taunt conservatives with it. It may just be a clump of cells, but it’s still a human being, albeit in a early developmental stage. It doesn’t start being a human only once it has a cute face and a heartbeat.

>>775550
>>775556
Are you two vegan?

Retard moralist

It should be illegal to propose legal policy on as vibes-based of grounds as "it's immoral."

Every law founded on morality is time wasted repealing that law, potentially several times over, instead of legislating on important things like bridges or abolishing advertisement.

>Marx is at a communist meeting
>He roars with laughter as a man mentions morality
>Someone informs Marx that his wife was raped by a pack of lumpens
>His laughter stops

How do you reconcile this conundrum without morality?

>>775557
No

>>775559
>important things like bridges or abolishing advertisement
You consider this stuff 'important' only due to your ethical position. Anyone does so, tho.
Change my mind.

>>775559
how is it only vibes based to say it’s immoral to rape a child because you are inflicting physical and psychological damage them besides violating their bodily autonomy?

>>775571 (me)
(Ethics and morality are the same)

>>775573
No it isn’t. Morality is the matter of whether or not certain actions are right or wrong, while ethics is the formalized investigation of morality.

>>775571
>>775572
You're misconstruing morals and ethics
>>775573
Nobeit

abortion is moral honestly, kids are awful, and there's no reason any large mammal species should have a population of over 1 million.
every cis woman should receive free morning after pills mailed to them once a week

>>775574
More like formalized cope

>>775574
No, it replaces morality entirely.

>>775578
It doesn’t replace it just as much as the field of chemistry doesn’t replace molecules.

if men were the ones who got pregnant "anti abortion" wouldnt even be a serious political position btw.

>>775588
True. Like nobody is arguing for stuff like, mandatory giving up one of your kidneys for transplant, that would be an unthinkable violation of bodily autonomy, but when it comes to pregnancy suddenly we have to care about the poor fetus who cant survive outside of womb.

>>775571
>No
So what exactly is your issue with killing unborn children? They certainly cant feel or think any better than animals you eat.

>>775575
It was pretty much the same in that case. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm a esl. That sentence wouldn't be any different if I said 'moral position' instead of 'ethical position'.

>>775592
>So what exactly is your issue with killing unborn children? They certainly cant feel or think any better than animals you eat.
A fetus has the potential to become a thinking human being, animals do not. If something has the potential to become a human being, it should be treated like a human being (only in the case of becoming a human being; for instance, an apple should not be treated like an apple tree)

>>775596
So you think abortions and other contraceptive methods should be outlawed completely? And why does potential to become human being matter?

I think abortions should be allowed until 2 months past birth.

Abortion will probably be seen as wrong far in the future but the current economic situation means it should be allowed.

>>775570
This is the same argument made by religitards as "without God, everyone becomes depraved animals". Criticizing moralism as an idealist mental construction heavily affected by ruling class ideology isn't the same as saying "I don't mind anyone doing anything"

You don't need to invoke moralism to say "I don't want a society where people can freely rape, I want rapists to be punished". This is a statement that is fully moral-free, it is simply an expression of one's desire. Moralism would be instead something like "my holy book said rape is bad so we should punish rape", or "rape is against human nature and therefore should be punished" or "we should follow the maxim of do unto others etc etc". All of those are moralist statements because they invoke idealist constructions like philosophy, religion, "human nature".

When Marxists criticize morality, they bring the real human interests and desires out in the open by cutting off the idealist justifications that mask these desires. The result of doing this is that it exposes the hidden conflicts in society, and these conflicts are hidden by bourgeois society because it wants to maintain social peace so it can peacefully exploit the proletariat.

>>775598
>So you think abortions and other contraceptive methods should be outlawed completely?
No, read the OP-post.

>And why does potential to become human being matter?
Human moral status matters (my axiom). The fetus having the potential to become a human being has this moral status as well

>>775601
>This is a statement that is fully moral-free, it is simply an expression of one's desire
And why do they desire that instead of the opposite?

>>775601 (me)

Take racism for example. Why would one be opposed to it? One reason would be that the person is a target of it and doesn't want to suffer from it. This is a non moralist reason - the person simply wants to eliminate a source of discomfort. Another reason is that even though you're not a target, you have feelings of empathy and feel bad when other people are hated for their race. Or simply because you dislike how racism makes class solidarity difficult.

Moralist reasons on the other hand would be saying things like "Jesus said love all neighbors", or "all human beings are equal and should be treated equally" or "the Constitution says we shouldn't be racist".

>>775602
>No, read the OP-post.
I did. But if potential to become human is the key thing here, then what difference is there between a zygote and 3th trimester fetus?

>>775604
They don't enjoy getting raped and don't want their loved ones to be raped. Punishment is a deterrence against rapey behavior.

>>775604
The fact that you tried to ask this question shows how philosophy is as brain rotting as religion. All of these idealist constructions should be destroyed from your mind - philosophy, religion, morality - in order to think scientifically and understand material reality.

>>775550
To be honest its idpol and has nothing to do with class struggle.

>>775550
Abortion is murder objectively but to say it's good or bad is a moral judgement.

>>775611
https://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/kollontai2.htm
>>775600
Unlikely. A life full of memories and relationships is worth protecting. A life that has not even entered the world is worthless.

>>775550
>1. life is suffering, and more people suffer than those who are privileged enough to live a prosperous life under capitalism
life is temporary, so spending it in subjugation to an exploitative economic paradigm that masquerades as a boon for society is a torture that bears no justification. of course, if you're lucky enough to be born into wealth, then this doesn't apply to you, but the rest of us will continue to be exploited until there is a revolution that begets change, which itself will be bloody and for which we will all needlessly suffer (but for a better tomorrow). politics aside, mere existence is suffering. in the grand scheme of things, humans are weak and easily thwarted by nature; you are prone to infection and disease, the vicious instincts of your fellow humans (psycho-sexual murder, imperial conquest, pointless brutality), and the ruthlessness of nature (natural disasters, aggressive and/or venomous animals, exposure to the elements).
<the universe is hostile, so impersonal, devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been
>2. there are 10 billion people in the world and counting, we are not short up for people
more people means more competition, as is the nature of capitalism. we are not in harmony, but instead divided by a number of denominations; nationality, race, gender, age, etc. to be thrust into such competition without first being aware of what's at stake and without consent is a form of suffering. you cannot escape society, only try and move as far away from it as possible, but you will always be bound to its regulations and the perception of others.
>3. the world has a limited amount of resources to extract and utilize for human endeavors, adding more to the population puts strain on utilization of said resources
because life is suffering, and because we operate under an inherently competitive system, and because we are divided by a number of denominations, we are prone to in-fighting. because we are prone to in-fighting, and because there are a limited amount of resources upon this mudball of a planet, the wealthy undertake imperialist campaigns around the globe to seize said resources for themselves and for the lowest prices possible, so as to secure their own well being and continued existence. thus, war and strife and atrocity after atrocity made in the name of progress are part and parcel of existence.

but, it's not all bleak, right? there are raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens, right? there's good in the universe, right? yes, of course. the question is: is life worth imposing on a person, so they can experience such things? the answer is no. you may feel differently, but I'm here to tell you that the good far outweighs the bad. no, I'm not an anti-natalist, I just think that they make some good points that most people simply disregard or are unwilling to even acknowledge. if you want kids, you should be free to have kids, but you should also really assess your own situation and determine much of an advantage your kid will have if you bring them into it. while it's true that the human race would go extinct of nobody was popping out babies, it's also true that the vast majority of people aren't capable of providing an adequate life for their babies.

stew on that motherfucker.

the good is far outweighed by the bad**
you knew what I meant.

>>775601
>>775605
You just have no idea what morality is. You either came up with a concept personal to you or are reciting an esoteric opinion from your political spectrum and present it as more general and self-evident thant it is. Morality is a psychological faculty of human beings as a social species. It allows for socialization to make you believe and feel that certain actions are inappropriate and refrain from doing so which is realized with emotions such as guilt, shame, fear or empathy.

>This is the same argument made by religitards as "without God, everyone becomes depraved animals".
If you don’t have morality then this is the case. The most comparable thing we have is anti-social personality disorder. Most people with ASPD lie, steal and are violent. Among them the only exception are high functioning psychopaths who don’t want to go to jail, which presupposes a moral society to keep them in check to begin with. I’m certain someone like Benjamin Netanyahu is a psychopath in the clinical sense of the word.

>Criticizing moralism as an idealist mental construction
“Moralism” is an ambiguous buzzword that many Marxists can’t properly explain and shifts in its meaning depending on who you ask. It’s a poorly constructed term by Marxists who chose to throw out the baby with the bathwater when the ruling class makes up moral codes as a form of manipulation to maintain class oppression. But that ignores that morality will continue to play a role in a socialist society.

>You don't need to invoke moralism to say "I don't want a society where people can freely rape, I want rapists to be punished". This is a statement that is fully moral-free
To state that rape should not be done is inadvertently a moral statement, because morality is about whether certain actions are or are not okay to do.

>Moralism would be instead something like "my holy book said rape is bad so we should punish rape", or "rape is against human nature and therefore should be punished" or "we should follow the maxim of do unto others etc etc".
I think the reason why such debates with Marxists are wholly unproductive is because they drag you into the terrain of their terminology that means a specific thing but then try to conflate that to the more general thing they are referencing when they are not equivalent. What you call “moralism” isn’t morality, yet you try to reject morality as a whole with it. Whenever someone on here responds with a thought terminating
>muh moralism
no one ever mentioned bourgois constructs like you’ve listed. People who complain about “moralism” reject all moral reasoning as a whole it appears.

i think i read a paper positing sub-consciousness that preludes "real" detectable consciousness and the first thing that popped up in my head is prolly that exists in the clump of cells or whatever. dowsnt really change my opinion bc idrc about chuds crying about consciousness, pre or otherwise

>Abortion is immoral, but mustn't be banned
This is also my position.

>>775550
The best option is to lift as many restrictions as possible; the pills should be completely free from any pharmacy no questions asked. Women should be able to request and receive an abortion the same day. This is the best way to eliminate moral concerns about what amount of development is okay or not.

Pregnancy is not easy or fun, and is even risky to your body and health in some cases, why would someone who does not want a child endure 6 months of it for no reason? If someone is getting an abortion after 6 months, that's a baby they desperately wanted to have but have run into some terrible and tragic medical problem, or they were prevented from getting an earlier abortion due to a controlling relationship/family members or other restrictions.

>>775608
>Punishment is a deterrence against rapey behavior
You have a moral/ethical prejudice that a potential rapist is rational and won't commit a crime if they know the result is punishment

>>775610
Lumpen-proletarian post

>>775611
Then nothing does, lmao

>>775607
There's no difference.

>>775617
Tl;dr
Is that post even related to the topic?

>>775596
Fucking stupidest shit I've read
It's a clump of cells
Has no memories, relationships, has not contributed to society in any way. Those are the things that make us human. Not "potential"

>>775666
So why do you argue abortion should be legal up until 24th week and not after?

Abortion is not immoral and for most of the pregnancy the human fetus is just a clump of cells, if you can take a pill and it kills somebody else then that person was never alive. Stop trying to be contrarian!

Most foetuses are better off being harvested for their stem cells to make skin cream than being born

>>775671
It would be more humane if the fetus didn't feel pain during the abortion.

TFD, it the fetus doesn't learn to parry, too bad.

>>775680
You said that doesnt matter, the potential to become human does.

>>775669
>tl;dr
get out of here, illiterate scum.

>>775684
Ableism toward the ESL third worldist

>>775683
Did I? Anyways, the 24 weeks part of the argument is not the main one.

>>775674
Then that means human life doesn’t have value.
Humans are a clump of cells not just fetuses

>>775576
Adults are awful as well. They do more damage than kids

>>775592
Unborn children can feel pain.
Im amazed that people show more respect for dead people over a century old than sentient humans in development in the womb

>>775613
By that logic, no body should be born.
The people who got to have memories and experience were once unborn in the womb

>>775670
If fetuses are not human, then why do all humans begin as fetuses?

Also, born humans are also clumps of cells.
And by your logic, comatose adults and murderers are not human because they don’t contribute to society

>>775650
I do t think abortion should be any developmental stage past the first trimester.
To say fetuses aren’t people just because they don’t move or talk is the equivalent of killing off comatose elderly folk

I am all for birth control pills and even hysterectomy.

>>775596
Animals can think

>>775642
This bit sounds more misopedia than anything. Louis CK says abortion is a last defense against shitty people.
No it isn’t.
Abortion can solve overpopulation but not shitty people. Especially since the shitty people are already born to begin with

>>775617
brutal trvth nvke that destroyed leftypol eternally

>>775633
Marxists love to preach about “morality is a spook” but then whine about “muh pedophilia” in anime or get offended about people voting right wing.

>>775617
This is the only good defense of abortion on here. Most others are pro abortion due to misopedia

>>775550
Are you upset about abortion or are you upset about whose deciding it? I'm Kirkingly asking, because my go too argument is "abortion should be left up to a professional. Like a judge, a doctor, or a man"

It's cheeky and illustrates how the conservative argument isn't so much it's wrong as whose deciding it is wrong. So let's say some woman did get pregnant, who should get to decide? In a perfect world it'd be you as you're the one perturbed but in the real world it isn't you dealing with the responsibilities of a child. While we can argue she shouldn't have been a whore, I'd agree, or that isn't the child's fault, also agree, taking care of a child sucks. Especially with no money, no support group, no sympathy, no family structure.

I'm not even saying be prochoice. It's fucking based just saying it's illegal now and making libs cope and seethe. But that's reality.

>>775755
Humans are clumps of cells that can think and feel and have impacts on other things, I said it before and ill say it again, anything that dies if someone else takes a pill is not a living thing in the first place.

>>775770
what if i took a best friend killing pill and you died

>>775770
>>775770
Then humans are not living things.
Just because fetuses are dependent on their mothers bodies doesn’t make them non living.
By that logic, fruit is non living

>>775770
Then, a shrunken adult human being being killed by stomach acid in someone else’s body isn’t living

The people in this thread that are pro abortion, why do take offense to population control?

>>775770
You shouldn’t have a problem with eugenics then

>>775676
Then what about elderly, comatose and paraplegic?

>>775768
It’s always children who end up paying for adult mistakes.

>>775774
>>775778
You guys are just making up hypothetical situations like 2nd graders

>>775776
Fruits just like a human fetus are not valuable because they bring nothing to the table because they cannot think and feel, by your logic since every sperm is alive you basically commit genocide whenever you throw away the napkin.

>>775784
What the fuck does eugenics have anything to do with what I said?!?!

>>775788
Fruit is valuable because it fuels your body with nutrients. Also, sperm is not sentient.
Fetuses are.

>>775789
Because you all take offense to the idea that earth is over populated and think that stopping developmental disorders from being passed down is eugenics therefore bad.
Yet, abortion is the closest thing to actual eugenics

>>775787
How is what we said wrong?
If you don’t have a problem with killing unborn kids because they’re biologically dependent on their moms bodies, then how can you truly claim to cherish life?

>>775787
You are the one who gets upset about loli which is purely hypothetical

>>775790
> Fruit is valuable because it fuels your body with nutrients. Also, sperm is not sentient. Fetuses are.
Fetuses are not sentient, they cannot think depending on what stage they are in, they certainly aren’t sentient after conception.
>Because you all take offense to the idea that earth is over populated
No I don’t
>and think that stopping developmental disorders from being passed down is eugenics therefore bad.
It is
>Yet, abortion is the closest thing to actual eugenics
In it’s not, Abortion has always existed and it is no different from extracting a tooth.
>>775792
I don’t know which one you posted but it was rage bait
>>775793
>You are the one who gets upset about loli which is purely hypothetical
Whataboutism, but either way Lolicon is not purely hypothetical because it normalizes sexual attraction to children.

>>775797
> Whataboutism, but either way Lolicon is not purely hypothetical because it normalizes sexual attraction to children.

That’s like saying violent video games normalizes murder/gore

> In it’s not, Abortion has always existed and it is no different from extracting a tooth.

So was murder of disabled people and slaves

> Fetuses are not sentient, they cannot think depending on what stage they are in, they certainly aren’t sentient after conception.

If that’s the case, then how do you explain that we feel pain and think in birth?
Do you not see how inconsistent your logic is?

> It is

Explain how it’s bad. Stopping developmental disorders is bad to you but killing fresh able bodied fetuses isn’t?

>>775797
If abortion isn’t the closest thing to eugenics, why then did enemy states encourage abortion of ethnic minorities?
Yet you think stopping disabled adults from breeding is eugenics?

>>775797
I’m seriously trying to under your logic.
Like really.
I do t get you.
How can you be ok with killing fetuses but not ok with preventing disabled adults from breeding

Abortion should be limited only to fetuses who turn out to be disabled.
Everything else should have preventive birth control pills

This is why I advocate to harvest eggs from prime age women and put them in cryogenic storage

>>775556
This is the thing that leftists don’t understand nor want to understand.
Personhood is given to the dead and disabled but somehow unborn babies are excluded

>>775803 >>775804
>If abortion isn’t the closest thing to eugenics, why then did enemy states encourage abortion of ethnic minorities?
Yet you think stopping disabled adults from breeding is eugenics?
Forced abortions done without the consent of the mother is different from women of all races having the right to abort their fetuses, one is racially motivated government overreach done to decrease an ethnicity while the other is individual liberty, and a part of individual liberty and bodily autonomy it that any disabled person who is mentally capable should be allowed to reproduce without the state telling them not to.
>>775802
>That’s like saying violent video games normalizes murder/gore
It can, depending on how much and what developmental stage watching too much violence without a positive message can seriously mess people up, but there is justified killings in real life which is why there are in media but there is no justified pedophilia so there is no justified lolicon.
>If that’s the case, then how do you explain that we feel pain and think in birth?
Do you not see how inconsistent your logic is?
AT BIRTH. A fetus is not a newborn a fetus is a fetus, you act like the thing is ready to jump outta the pussy and play legos when it's just a clump of cells!
>Explain how it’s bad. Stopping developmental disorders is bad to you but killing fresh able bodied fetuses isn’t?
Which the exception of extreme disabilities such as high support needs of down syndrome or autism where having sex with someone that disabled is just abuse, people should be allowed to make their own choices with their bodies without state repression.

>>775810
> Do you not see how inconsistent your logic is?
AT BIRTH. A fetus is not a newborn a fetus is a fetus, you act like the thing is ready to jump outta the pussy and play legos when it's just a clump of cells!

And again, feeling pain and thought happens in the womb.

It doesn’t just happen immediately in birth.
That’s like expecting a genie to poof a rock into a dog

> It can, depending on how much and what developmental stage watching too much violence without a positive message can seriously mess people up, but there is justified killings in real life which is why there are in media but there is no justified pedophilia so there is no justified lolicon

This post sounds like a rationalizing for simulated violence.
Violence is never justified, it’s merely encouraged.
Most violence in media is just characters being provoked into a fight to prove their worth.
Very rarely justified.

Also loli con is fictional. Rarely involves any real life kids.


> Forced abortions done without the consent of the mother is different from women of all races having the right to abort their fetuses, one is racially motivated government overreach done to decrease an ethnicity while the other is individual liberty, and a part of individual liberty and bodily autonomy it that any disabled person who is mentally capable should be allowed to reproduce without the state telling them not to.

Yet, people will agree that elderly people or mentally I’ll folk who want medically assisted suicide are being treated as expendable fodder and therefore shouldn’t be allowed to be killed.
There are a lot of adult humans whom are comatose and senile and they’re given persona hood.

Again your logic is inconsistent

>>775810
> Forced abortions done without the consent of the mother is different from women of all races having the right to abort their fetuses, one is racially motivated government overreach done to decrease an ethnicity while the other is individual liberty, and a part of individual liberty and bodily autonomy it that any disabled person who is mentally capable should be allowed to reproduce without the state telling them not to

Make this make sense

Why should unborn babies be killed for the convenience of adults but disabled adults should be allowed to pass their defective genes to the next generation?
If we encouraged disabled people to breed, we would see an uptick of babies needing to be aborted
Even if a disabled person is mentally capable, their qualities of life is drained, which means their offspring will suffer the same fate

>>775810
> It can, depending on how much and what developmental stage watching too much violence without a positive message can seriously mess people up, but there is justified killings in real life which is why there are in media but there is no justified pedophilia so there is no justified lolicon.

This is such shitty rationale.
“It’s ok to have excessive fictional violence because there are these outlier incidents where justice is served”

>>775810
If fetuses are unalive, why do they kick?

>>775817
A fetus con only feel pain 24 weeks in which is when I think abortion should not be legal.
>Violence is never justified
Tell that to the soldiers who used violence to liberate concentration camps in ww2
>Also loli con is fictional. Rarely involves any real life kids.
It does not matter it normalizes sexualization of children and it is very creepy that someone who is defending illustrated cp is advocating against bodily autonomy for women and disabled people.
>Yet, people will agree that elderly people or mentally I’ll folk who want medically assisted suicide are being treated as expendable fodder and therefore shouldn’t be allowed to be killed.
The only people who get assisted suicide are physically ill people with incurable diseases, anyone else should not be put to death.

>>775819
>It does not matter it normalizes sexualization of children and it is very creepy that someone who is defending illustrated cp is advocating against bodily autonomy for women and disabled people.

Loli isn’t pedophilia tho
You want to equate it to that because you don’t like it

>Tell that to the soldiers who used violence to liberate concentration camps in ww2

Probably after they raped and pillaged some peasants

>>775819
>It does not matter it normalizes sexualization of children and it is very creepy that someone who is defending illustrated cp is advocating against bodily autonomy for women and disabled people.

Yet nobody gets upset about gore or S&M and rapeplay

>The only people who get assisted suicide are physically ill people with incurable diseases, anyone else should not be put to death.

Then you have conclude then that abortion is murder