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Marx/Engels: "Agnostics are just shame-faced Atheists."

Actual research: "It's more interesting than that and they have much different internal reasoning and spiritual struggles from each other."

>A new psychology of religion study finds agnostics struggle more with doubt, meaning, and morality than atheists, but also feel more drawn to God. As it turns out, nonbelief has a lot to do with emotions.
so marx and engels were right? lmao

>>776820
>so marx and engels were right? lmao
if anything the part you quoted sounds more like they are shame-faced theists than shame-faced atheists, but even so, that's not the whole picture. The results are more interesting than that. For example, agnostics on average want God to be real more than Atheists do.

Materialism has completely shit the bed on any question of consciousness so I am for the time being agnostic. If you disagree, I have a follow up question, do you think LLMs are conscious?

>>776822
>The results are more interesting than that. For example, agnostics on average want God to be real more than Atheists do.
so theyre even more pathetic than "shame-faced atheists"

>>776823
>science has completely shit the bed on any question of consciousness so I am for the time being agnostic
you sound very very stupid

Up next: the philosophy of children believing in Santa Claus and wanting him to be real. And let's call it actual research too.

>>776824
neuroscience is even more lost than philosophy on this, with serious research thinking that you can recreate thoughts from an EEG. Also answer the second question.

Atheism and agnosticism are midwit beliefs. God probably exists, but you need at least a 140 autism score to understand this.

https://benthams.substack.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-anthropic
https://benthams.substack.com/p/the-fine-tuning-argument-simply-works

File: 1777175028669.jpg (40.55 KB, 736x233, scale of intelligence.jpg)

>>776825
Santa has much higher Kolmogorov complexity than God. God is simply the end point of the universal intelligence spectrum.

https://benthams.substack.com/p/god-may-be-maximally-simple
https://benthams.substack.com/p/10-ways-god-can-be-simple

>>776829
> posting bentham's bulldog.
why are so many neorats flooding the site lately

>>776826
*you* cant even quality as conscious if you think Science(tm) not answering an entirely philosophical issue somehow means god is real lmfao, fucking clown

>>776829
>more philosophy bullshit from substack writers and youtubers
>first image is unironic le wojak I.Q maymay
>whole articles are just tautologies and huge leaps of logic presented as evidence of god
yeah i wouldnt be calling others "midwits" if i were you LOL

>>776830
>AI NRx bullshit now
jfc 2016 called

>>776823
>Materialism has completely shit the bed on any question of consciousness so I am for the time being agnostic
How? I feel like this will start a really long and boring back and forth but the so called "hard problem of consciousness" is mostly semantic imo.
>If you disagree, I have a follow up question, do you think LLMs are conscious?
No, and LLMs if you ask them will say they aren't, and they'll give you pretty compelling reasons why.

>>776824
>so theyre even more pathetic than "shame-faced atheists"
I'm interested in understanding what peoples' actual measurable similarities and differences are, and the research shows: Agnostics are not merely shame-faced atheists.

>>776831
>why are so many neorats flooding the site lately
because we live in the age of the schizo and even normies are fleeing reddit and social media for imageboards

>>776829
Ok but the thread isn't about theists.

>>776829
what kind of god, anyway? i refuse to watch the video since it'll pollute my algorithim with christchud slop

>>776829
I don't know if this is actually true but when I tripped on LSD over a decade ago I came to the "conclusion" that "God" isn't merely the "creator" of the universe but the also the product of the universe. The universe culminates in God, as the ultimate product of the technological development of the trillions of type 3 civilizations that will blossom among the stars, and God's ultimate purpose will be to prevent the heat death of the universe by sacrificing Godself and re-establishing the singularity which existed before the "big bang," which singularity is the actually existing Heaven, btw.

Anyway LSD makes you think funny things. That's what I wanted to share.

>>776841
>pollute my algorithim
big 26 and still logging in to youtube? not bookmarking instead of subscribing? not using tartube? shiggeth diggeth

>>776843
i would if you send me a 2tb ssd :)

i'm an agnostic atheist precisely because i don't believe a god exists but i don't think it could be proved either way

>>776845
This researchers understood that this category of people exist and it gets acknowledged at some point.

>>776846
how do they rank them, anyway

I am a secular gnostic.

>>776829
This video mostly sucked. Waste of time. Here are basically his points that I took notes on as I watched so you don't have to watch. I will not counter argue, just present them:

He says belief in God, defined as a perfect and unlimited mind, is reasonable because it is simple and explains many features of reality. He starts by laying out a general way to evaluate theories. For him, a good theory should be simple, meaning it has few assumptions and no arbitrary limits. It should also have high prior probability, meaning it is plausible even before looking at evidence (e.g. the existence of Julius Caesar), and it should explain a wide range of phenomena. He argues that theism meets all of these criteria.

He then claims that God, understood as a single unlimited mind with no limits on knowledge, power, or goodness, is a very simple hypothesis. In his view, simplicity is not about how many things exist, but about how many fundamental unexplained entities a theory requires. A single unlimited mind counts as one fundamental entity and has no arbitrary restrictions, which he sees as an advantage over theories that involve many separate physical laws or constraints.

Next, he explains why such a being would also be perfectly good. His reasoning is that a being that fully understands what is good and has no irrational limitations would always act in accordance with the good. So an unlimited mind would naturally be omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect.

He then argues that theism provides better explanations for several features of the universe. First, he says the existence of a physical world is more expected if there is a creator, while atheism does not strongly predict that anything should exist at all. Second, he argues that the presence of laws of nature is more likely under theism, since a rational creator would impose order, whereas atheism could just as easily result in a chaotic or inactive universe.

He also claims that the fact these laws produce complex and interesting structures is unlikely under atheism. Most possible sets of laws, he argues, would produce nothing interesting or stable. He connects this to the fine tuning argument, saying that physical constants fall within a very narrow range that allows for life, which he sees as unlikely without design.

He then turns to consciousness. He argues that it is difficult to explain how subjective experience (hard problem of consciousness) could arise from purely physical processes, while it would be more expected if a conscious creator intended to produce conscious beings. He also introduces the idea of psychophysical harmony, meaning that our mental experiences line up in meaningful ways with our physical behavior. He claims evolution explains behavior but does not explain why experiences themselves are structured in a meaningful way.

He continues by arguing that our ability to know moral truths and abstract truths such as mathematics and logic is surprising under a naturalistic worldview. If our beliefs are shaped mainly by survival, then there is no strong reason to think they would be true. He suggests that theism provides a better explanation for why we have reliable access to these kinds of truths.

Finally, he presents a more speculative argument about existence. He claims that if more conscious beings exist, then your own existence becomes more likely. From this, he argues that we should expect a very large or even infinite number of conscious beings, and that theism predicts this better than atheism.

He concludes that theism is a simple theory with high prior probability that explains many features of reality, so it is reasonable to think that God probably exists. His overall claim is that a single unlimited mind provides a better explanation for existence, order, fine tuning, consciousness, morality, and knowledge than atheism does.

I will add nothing to his arguments or counter argue. This is just a presentation what he said. I will say however that I have heard most of these before, and a long time ago, too, back when atheism-vs.-theism type shit was much more popular in the Bush era.

>>776847
rank? in what sense of the word.

>>776844
you should not give me your address no matter what promises i make

>>776837
just my current thoughts on the landscape:

I don't think consciousness/subjective experience/qualia can be so quickly handwaved away like Dennet does. I'm skeptical of the type of emergence people say builds consciousness and if you believe in something like panpsychism that's just being an idealist but using terms you find more agreeable.

I mentioned LLMs because I've noticed a few Marxists that have been interested in semiotics and structuralism where something like a vector field in a language 'space' can confer meaning, but answering the chinese room issue is still mostly cope. I think this is probably the most consistent materialist explanation atm tho, which is why I've been meaning to read Umberto Eco soon.

Idealism has it's own issues with this too (dualism lol), so I probably lean towards the lame sentient sand explanation (panpsychism or neoplatonism)

But anyway I'm curious what your thoughts are. No one really has an answer imo so it doesn't need to get all that heated.

>>776854
my thoughts on this matter are simple and boring.

consciousness is physical, and subjective experiences emerges from the combination of multiple information processing systems behaving together in linked network where they cannot be cleanly separated from one another. I do not think the brain is an antennae. If you kill me I'm gone. If you hit me on the head hard enough my personality becomes different, and I become less smart. If you take my eyes I am no longer able to see. If you fuck up both my cochlea I'm deaf. I experience material reality filtered through my imperfect senses and I have no indisputable proof that the world around me is real, but I clearly have a strong incentive to believe it is because I will still move out of the way if something is about to hit me, and I like to avoid all sorts of pain if possible. as for why there is "subjective" experience at all I think that's mostly semantic. any system that processes information, maintains memory, develops and updates its own context sensitive model of reality, could potentially be conscious, there's nothing special about biology except perhaps how squishy, pain-prone, and shaped by millions of years of evolution and survival incentives we are, whereas we could hypothetically create forms of intelligent life much more resilient than ourselves by removing the ability to feel pain, the ability to have emotions, etc. but these lacks might prove disadvantageous for those forms of life, but nevertheless we could make them not care about that anyway.

>>776852
in the sense that they are different from atheists and other types of agnostic
>>776853
i wouldn't, don't you worry sunshine

>>776851
a very odd argument but one that's typical, these sorts of arguments run into problems when we ask questions about what type of god's can exist in this universe

>>776823
llms aren't conscious because they have yet to develop artificial equivalents of elements necessary to form a consciousness

>>776855
Do you like Penrose btw? Like I said I'm not super convinced by the whole emergent thesis (namely because the type of strong emergence vs weak emergence like magnetism required doesn't actually exist in nature) but his theory of a quantum conscious superstructure is the only recent theory that tries to offer an explanation of how experience could arise.

>>776859
I'm probably too stupid to understand Penrose to be quite honest with you.

>>776851
Thank you for summarizing. I already noticed several sleights of hand:
>He then claims that God, understood as a single unlimited mind with no limits on knowledge, power, or goodness, is a very simple hypothesis.
This is an unabashedly idealist argument and hinges on the fact, you won't find it more likely, that we can eventually arrive at a more accurate explanation, by what we already know about the material world through a long chain of replicable experiments and verified theories.
>His reasoning is that a being that fully understands what is good and has no irrational limitations would always act in accordance with the good.
This draws from the Christian conception, that nature is inherently good and is therefore moot for everyone else.
>atheism does not strongly predict that anything should exist at all
>atheism could just as easily result in a chaotic or inactive universe
This implies the potential existence of a substanceless or chaotic universe, as well as implicitely a time before the universe's existence, which is mythological cosmologist bullshit.
>fine tuning argument
Classic, that is instantly debunked by the mere notion of statistics.
>abstract truths such as mathematics and logic is surprising under a naturalistic worldview
Logic is the movement of thought and mathematics is the logic of space. 'nuff said

>>776861
>Classic, that is instantly debunked by the mere notion of statistics.
it's also debunked by the fact we don't even live in an ideal universe, if we lived in a universe that did match a perfect condition for advanced life, or a near perfect one, it might have some substance, we live in a sub-optimal universe instead

I'm still quite confident that atheism is an evangelical christian psyop to make otherwise non-religious people continue to think about the question of weather a god exists or not repeatedly until they give in.

If one were confident that there won't be any evidence of deities, then seeing the question as unworthy of investigation until such happens would be obviously more firmly anti-religion than insisting on an unknown like atheism does.

>>776867
take your meds

>>776823
>Materialism has completely shit the bed on any question of consciousness
lmao
Give me a non-materialist explanation for alzheimers.

>>776867
>If one were confident that there won't be any evidence of deities
What do you mean "won't"? There ISN'T, currently, in the present time, right now.

> What, indeed, is agnosticism but, to use an expressive Lancashire term, "shamefaced" materialism? The agnostic's conception of Nature is materialistic throughout. The entire natural world is governed by law, and absolutely excludes the intervention of action from without. But, he adds, we have no means either of ascertaining or of disproving the existence of some Supreme Being beyond the known universe. Now, this might hold good at the time when Laplace, to Napoleon's question, why, in the great astronomer's Treatise on Celestial Mechanics, the Creator was not even mentioned, proudly replied "I had no need of this hypothesis." But, nowadays, in our evolutionary conception of the universe, there is absolutely no room for either a Creator or a Ruler; and to talk of a Supreme Being shut out from the whole existing world, implies a contradiction in terms, and, as it seems to me, a gratuitous insult to the feelings of religious people.
I don't think "internal reasoning" or "spiritual struggles" change this in any way.

>>776818
Im agnostic about unicorns and tooth fairy existing.

>>776870
Won't = will not. (I know the o is in a weird spot but it's from the n'o't I'm pretty sure)

As in, something that has not yet happened simply isn't going to happen, implying the present doesn't differ from the future.

>>776823
>do you think LLMs are conscious?

Human: Receives 'sensory' inputs from 'nature', processes them in a huge neural network via electro-chemical feedbacks, after all yields a complex output

Machine: Receives 'sensory' inputs from 'nature' , processes them in a huge network of transistors via electrical feedbacks, after all yields a complex output

What makes us 'conscinous' and them not is a mystery for me, yes, we can 'modify' / 'alter' the thought patterns of the machine by changing their conditions, but ain't it the same for us? Even though we may have the feeling of being victorious over the nature, at the end, we are too subjected to the same nature and its conditions just like the machine.

You can always give the same input to a person with Alzheimer and each time the output will likely be the same, that persons bevahiours will be alike to a combinational circuit with higher complexity.
You can cut off the connection between left and right brain, which will directly affect that persons bevahioral and thinking patterns.

Similary, a person can't hold an access knowledge of which he didn't capture via an instrument, can we think of a colour we never had seen/captured? The nature seemingly limits our thought.

File: 1777198541529.jpg (168.16 KB, 576x1280, invention universe.jpg)


>>776905
Aren't the first three metaphors

File: 1777221612280.png (65.96 KB, 736x233, ClipboardImage.png)


File: 1777221624284.png (86.57 KB, 1635x215, ClipboardImage.png)

>>776969

>>776829
>ai generated slop

Fine tuning argument is just the anthropic principle combined with the sharpshooters fallacy

Also, the idea of 'god' has no explanatory power because what created god? If you can say "well god is self evident, he created himself", ok I can just make that same argument about the universe then.

>>776867
> atheism is an evangelical christian psyop to make otherwise non-religious people continue to think about the question of weather a god exists or not repeatedly until they give in.
Marx and Engels were part of an evangelical Christian psy op?
>atheism insists on an unknown
the point of atheism over agnosticism is you don't have to be agnostic on every question for which there is no evidence provided. I can assert that there is a giant purple dragon named steve who is floating beind YOUR head and YOUR head only at all times. He is invisible to everyone but me, and is not made of matter or energy. you cannot observe steve because he evades your observation, I insist…. are you obligated to be agnostic on the question of steve's existence, or does it make more sense to go through life assuming I am full of shit unless I provide evidence? The latter is the atheist position.

>>776961
that's the joke. humans take their own metaphors literally sometimes, and over-use whatever they have invented most recently in their theology and metaphors.

File: 1777239317849.png (49.62 KB, 891x621, ClipboardImage.png)

>>776823
>If you disagree, I have a follow up question, do you think LLMs are conscious?

File: 1777239491041.png (47.92 KB, 823x630, ClipboardImage.png)

>>776823
> do you think LLMs are conscious?
part 2 just in case you're still skeptical and think they are

>>776818
arguing atheism vs agnosticism is textbook metaphysics, it's irrelevant to marxism

>>776823
Undialectical Empiricist retardation. Won't even bother responding.


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