/siberia/ - Off-topic

Nelson Mandela was a nice man.

>>798146
Dude, he literally was like one dude out fucking what? Dozens of other major African leaders most of which werent advocating for letting the boer population off easy or wanting integration compared to explicit culling?

Zimbabwe actually did allow the whites to stay. Most fled but there are still plenty of whites in Zimbabwe including landowners (cringe). You're repeating Rh*desian propaganda.

>>798148
“Allow”
Yeah on paper. Im pretty sure any indigenous African that had to live through that shit isnt going to have the patience or even unreasonable to want the population that just made their lives legit shit and their dignity dragged either or dead or removed

Besides, Mugabe men were literally deporting people and shooting stragglers (mainly over civilian killings given that the Rhodesian light infantry was notorious for that shit but not much media attention is given to that)

>Zimbabwe, Zanzibar, Haiti, Angola, like a fuck ton of miscellaneous other African countries didnt grant the right of letting their invaders live.
Yes they did. Most of them left of their own accord since they lost their privileged status and a lot of their property was redistributed. They weren't forced out as a matter of policy.

Please god, be a false flag instead of being a leftist this dumb. You do realize Africans aren't soulless goblins who just want to kill everything for fun or revenge right? Also like >>798165 said, most of those countries DIDN'T just mass murder white people after they won like you are trying to imply. As for why, there was no reason to kill them all, most of them left on afterwards and the ones who stayed had little influence on on the country afterwards anyways leaving the morality issue aside, I guess you could try to argue the revolutionary leadership becoming a new comprador class was possibly related to them getting connections through the settlers but I can't see how thats the case.

>>798174
Never did. It just doesn’t make any sense given historical context for a government with as many atrocities on its list as the apartheid era government to not end up in the state Israel is today. Ironically your idea that somehow peace and cooexistence after all that evil shit from shooting children in broad daylight to denying people rights to basic dignity and standards of living over race theory makes any fucking sense
>>798165
The way you right makes you think that this was done out of mercy and not out of pragmatism to conserve military forces and extract whatever was gained from those that didnt die in the fallout
The majority of the invaders werent left to live because that’s fucking stupid on a conceptual level to late the same asshole that just terrorized your population off the hook for no reason beyond morals

>>798175
>The majority of the invaders werent left to live because that’s fucking stupid on a conceptual level to late the same asshole that just terrorized your population off the hook for no reason beyond morals
What's the reason to persecute them beyond morals? I've never understood the mentality of Westoids who rage and seethe that actual third world national liberation movements aren't carrying out their ethnic cleansing fantasies. Anyways, whatever you do don't read articles 16 and 17 of the Hamas charter or the PFLP's plans for a one state solution.

>>798175
Also
No, they didnt just “decide to leave”, if it wasn’t just the fact that there political power was explicitly stripped openly from them, plenty were straight up forced into deportation with accounts from interviews. I wouldn’t even say that’s unreasonable. Like fuck

If Palestinians today forced the IDF out of power, do you think anyone there would have the patience to let Israelis stay in the country and just “let them leave on their own”? Especially in mass numbers?

>>798178
>plenty were straight up forced into deportation with accounts from interviews
Yeah and if you read accounts from Ukrainians in the 1930s Stalin arrived with the Big Spoon and ate all the grain. You realize this is literally just settler propaganda that you're trying to convince us is actually good right?

>>798177
Western? That shit actually happens pretty consistently

Ignoring African examples, there’s plenty of real documented cases of indigenous peoples seizing their dignity and privacy back by force because it the best decision to make. Vietnam against France, North Korea against the Americans, Cuba against the Americans also, a lot of random violence with the British empire in the Middle East I could keep going.
That assumption thag a real person isnt tolerating their life being put to shit over morality or “being the better person” is more dehumanizing and stripping of agency since it can buu into the belief that such oppression goes consequence free. Like fuck, you know how much myth is in the USA are promoted to believe that slaves werent actively sabotaging and sometimes actively killing their captors so other governments would keep funding slave traffickers?

>>798180
“Good guys”
Dude, only already established pro americans are going to feel the slightest of pity for an active and known invader with a comedically long list of crimes against humanity. The proof is there, that doesnt fucking mean anyone has to or did necessarily feel shit for the people that werent killed or deported violently over settler violence.

>>798182
>Vietnam against France, North Korea against the Americans, Cuba against the Americans also, a lot of random violence with the British empire
None of those were settler colonies. They didn't have large, permanent civilian populations of people descended from the colonizing countries. Obviously throw out the colonial administrators, the foreign soldiers, the capitalists, etc. That's not the same thing as rounding up random people with no direct connection to the colonial state apparatus just because they share an ethnic origin with the occupiers.
>Like fuck, you know how much myth is in the USA are promoted to believe that slaves werent actively sabotaging and sometimes actively killing their captors so other governments would keep funding slave traffickers?
I know that "if we give the natives equality they'll kill us all" has been the basic propaganda narrative of every apartheid and settler colonial system in history. Idk why any supposed socialist or anti-imperialist would want to spread this narrative instead of exposing how it's always been a lie.

Most of these decolonial movements werent actually vengeful toward their non-indigenous managerial population. That narrative is a retcon from the butthurt people that left because they didnt wanted to be ruled by the indigenous majority or narcissistic diasporas living in the old colonist home country trying to aura farm. Though it is true many whites/indians that chose to remain got caught in violent political crossfires and instability like in Zimbabwe or Zair. There is also the fact that these delocolonial figures were cultivated man very well versed in western european ideals and culture due to being students of western institutions, oftentime raised by catholic/anglican authorities, even a tryhard reactionary revivalist like Mobutu was all about western culture personally.

>>798194
[everything above the second quotation]
Sure, I can believe that a person just gaining freedom that’s never been in independence wars obviously doesnt have the time to want their occupiers dead instead of just trying to live. What I do doubt is someone that was in that violence and had to deal with their friends being killed to gain control over their lives will have absolute zero contempt for the invading populace.

“if we give the natives equality they'll kill us all”

Well I’ve heard of this shit so you’ll have to explain this to me. Never heard of an idea this stupid. Pretty sure slave owners and invaders would be regardless of what the law says *for being slave owners and invaders*

“ it's always been a lie.”
There was a fucking book written by frantz fanon, explicitly who fought for Algerian independence on the idea that people under occupation obviously want their freedom back and will fight for the sake of it which was explicitly against narratives of docility and compliance with the western system promoted by NATO throughout the book. It was “the wretched of the earth”, it’s a pretty good read and had a bunch of good points on troubles post colonization governments go through

>>798200
>What I do doubt is someone that was in that violence and had to deal with their friends being killed to gain control over their lives will have absolute zero contempt for the invading populace.
Then your doubts are misplaced because this is very often exactly what happens. The entire complicating factor in settler colonialism is that eventually it becomes impossible to really call the settler population "invaders" anymore since they may have been established there for multiple generations. They essentially become part of the fabric of the whole population and the only way you can reject this is by resorting to blood and soil nationalism that could be used in any number of absurd ways. Should the English go back to Germany so the Welsh can take over? The Turks back to Central Asia so the Greeks can take back Anatolia? This way of thinking rapidly descends into incoherent nonsense, which is why third world revolutionary movements consistently reject it.
>Well I’ve heard of this shit so you’ll have to explain this to me. Never heard of an idea this stupid.
It's pretty much everywhere you see settler colonialism. Israelis say they can't have a one state solution wherein they coexist with Palestinians on an equal footing because if they do, the Palestinians will kill them all. American slavers used to say that if the slaves were emancipated, they would rise up in a race war and kill all the whites. The same was said of Black people in Rhodesia and South Africa. Its the oldest colonial propaganda trope in the book.
>the idea that people under occupation obviously want their freedom back and will fight for the sake of it which was explicitly against narratives of docility and compliance
He's talking about the legitimacy of violence in the course of a national liberation struggle, i.e. as a tool to smash the colonial military and administrative apparatus. He wasn't talking about generalized violence against a civilian settler population that amounted to ethnic cleansing. Algeria actually offered citizenship to the Pieds Noirs but most rejected it and chose to go to France instead.

>>798207
>your doubts are misplaced because this is very often exactly what happens
Either you’re telling me freedom fighters committed to fighting an organized force larger than themselves have the most enslaved mentality ever towards winning or youre making shit up not just about the soldiers but how people work in general.
The average person isnt a saint when it comes to dealing with people that actually fuck them over in life and I think that’s a fine and fair trait.

>>798211
>>798207
Also, how the hell is that colonial propaganda you brought up supposed to make me feel bad about the occupied populations. If anything, it would make me feel relieved that they wouldn’t tolerate that shit from the invading force and would drive them out if they had the capacity too instead of letting such oppression continue without consequence.

>>798211
>Either you’re telling me freedom fighters committed to fighting an organized force larger than themselves have the most enslaved mentality ever towards winning
Those fighters are part of revolutionary armies with military discipline and political leadership. That's who ultimately decides the policies, not random soldiers, and they have the good sense to understand why generalized ethnic persecution is a bad idea.
>The average person isnt a saint when it comes to dealing with people that actually fuck them over in life and I think that’s a fine and fair trait
So if you're wronged by a person then you think it's acceptable to take it out on everybody who shares their ethnicity?

> Those fighters are part of revolutionary armies with military discipline and political leadership. That's who ultimately decides the policies, not random soldiers, and they have the good sense to understand why generalized ethnic persecution is a bad idea.

Fair enough of an idea. It actually makes sense

> So if you're wronged by a person then you think it's acceptable to take it out on everybody who shares their ethnicity?
When said ethnicity writes actual laws to fuck over me and everyone related to me while forming an explicit ethnically driven class while gaslighting the shit out of the occupied population

At that point mass deportation and explicit revolutionary violence is fair game. Israelis, boers, rhodesians, and any other force of settler oppression genuinely had it coming.

>>798145
>Zimbabwe, Zanzibar, Haiti, Angola, like a fuck ton of miscellaneous other African countries didnt grant the right of letting their invaders live.
The peacuful solution was military integration of black population.
>Werent there like multiple countries directly bordering apartheid South Africa preparing to invade that place?
Even post-mandela military could destroy anything aimed at them.

>>798222
>When said ethnicity writes actual laws to fuck over me and everyone related to me
"That ethnicity"? Did they all do it? Do workers write laws in bourgeois states?

>>798223
>Even post-mandela military could destroy anything aimed at them.
The Cubans BTFO the apartheid military thoughever.

>>798224
Are workers living in settler colonies thousands of kilometers from the imperial core?

>>798226
Not necessarily because some settler colonies are part of the imperial core lol.

>>798227
Youre failing to make a coherent argument

Im going to cut this conversation short
Occupied civilians dont have to feel an ounce of pity for invaders and slave owners and they’re completely justified in having those pieces of shit killed or deported and stripped of any political power if it means gaining back dignity and autonomy
Whoever the fuck said such populations are docile is ignorant of history (ffs, there’s a song called kill the boer sung by South African soldiers), and genuinely less in touch with how actual people respond to imperialist violence than some actual colonial invaders
South Africa not being ripped to shreds doesnt follow the same historical pattern much of the world under NATO occupation during the Cold War did and there aren’t a lot of clear reasons on why

What would have been the point of that? They lost all political power and were a tiny irrelevant minority these states had much more numerous and bigger problems to deal with.

>>798231
>Occupied civilians dont have to feel an ounce of pity for invaders and slave owners
After apartheid ended they werent invaders or slave ownerd any longer just ordinary citizens.

>>798231
>Occupied civilians dont have to feel an ounce of pity for invaders and slave owners and they’re completely justified in having those pieces of shit killed or deported and stripped of any political power
Sure, but you're conflating things here. "Slaver" is a class position, i.e. a person who owns slaves. As such it can't be extended to an entire population on the basis of race. "Invader" is an incoherent term to refer to a settler population because it necessarily comes to rely on ethnonationalism and blood and soil thinking. Again, are the English "invaders" in England because they came over from Germany 1500 years ago and drove the native Britons into Wales and Scotland? This line of thinking either forces you into absurd positions like claiming the English are not native to their own country, or else creating random arbitrary cutoffs after which point invaders become natives. I'd go for a simple and rationalist position which is that if you are born and raised in a country then you should have the right to live there.
>Whoever the fuck said such populations are docile is ignorant of history
I never said they were docile, but it's simply a fact that as a rule, such liberation movements didn't seek to ethnically cleanse the settler population.
>>798232
This. Colonialism is a socioeconomic relationship, and the struggle against it is the struggle to dismantle that relationship (i.e. a class struggle). It isn't a clash of civilizations or a race war.

>>798232
Fair enough

>>798174
>You do realize Africans aren't soulless goblins who just want to kill everything for fun or revenge right?
There’s nothing wrong with killing colonizers and that’s just your framing of it. If they had stayed then they should have been slaughtered in mass.

>>798232
>What would have been the point of that?
Punishment. Of course it eludes the whitoid why people would hate those who dehumanized and humiliated them because you aren’t on the other end of it.

>>798237
>There’s nothing wrong with killing colonizers
If you dismantle the colonial apparatus and economic relationship then they cease to be colonizers.
>>798238
>Of course it eludes the whitoid why people would hate those who dehumanized and humiliated them because you aren’t on the other end of it.
You keep saying this and yet fail to grasp that in virtually every case, the revolutionaries didn't actually take revenge on the settler population, at least not as a policy. You seem to want colonized people to be more bloodthirsty than they actually are.

>>798238
Punishment for what? 90% of them were just regular people.
>ofcourse it eludes the whitoid why people would hate those who dehumanized and humiliated them
You dont actually care about racism inequality or opression do you? You just want to be the opresser instead of the opressed.

>>798239
> If you dismantle the colonial apparatus and economic relationship then they cease to be colonizers.
That doesn’t invalidate their crimes or their effects of their crimes

>>798241
>That doesn’t invalidate their crimes or their effects of their crimes
Then you can prosecute the individuals responsible and judge them accordingly?

>>798241
If any of them are actually guilty of crimes relating to specific acts of colonial oppression then let them be arrested and punished, if they are found guilty in a fair trial. If they served in the colonial military or administrative apparatus etc. However, sharing the ethnicity of the colonizing country isn't a crime.

>>798245

>>798244
You think the fighters didnt realize ts. That’s what the fuck they did. That’s why I even went to clarify that invaders and other agents of imperialist violence explicitly are fair game. Hell, actually getting that vengeance wouldn’t be possible if they didn’t have to data to know who to target

>>798256
But again the white government surrended so there was no point or need to do that