The Graham Platner case is living proof that most Leftists who say that morality is spooks dont believe in that. If you truly believe that morality is spooks your first instinct shouldve been to bunker down and run a disinformation campaign against the women that's testifying against Platner rn because him getting a seat is much more strategically important than his victims getting closure
And because i know half the anons here are functionally illiterate no im not making this post to defend Platner
The leftists attacking him are not the ones who claim morality is a spook
>leftism
>liberal electoral politics
>trans flag
Houston we have a retard
>>804027I always just see the "morality is a spook" talking point as an argument against things you can't actually give a reason for why they're wrong, not just "nothing is true, everything is permitted"
It's bad for optics
Yes we should strategically defend mass murderers nazis rapists until enough democrats are in office so they can push the revolution button
>>804027I don't think that standing up for fucking Graham Platner was some lefty litmus test considering his history as a multiple tours of duty soldier in the Middle East into Blackwater mercenary.
That said, it IS a bit disturbing to me the efficiency with which the political establishment is able to crush potential opposition political figures with flippant sexual assault allegations. And we know that they were trying to do this to him because the New York Times tried to do an exposé on him, only to completely bungle it. Then they come out with another, also highly suspicious accusation, but remembered to actually do their homework in their little frame-up and cross all their Ts and dot their Is and this network of leftoid hypemen who had been in the saddle for this open Blackwater merc suddenly completely abandon ship and disavow him and everyone starts demanding that he step down. Even though, let's be honest here, even if this little date rape accusation was true (and it's basically "he had sex with me while I was drunk, but I kept this fact in absolute secrecy except for the minimal number of confidants needed for this to be regarded as a "credible" accusation, here's some easily faked correspondence"), it's still a lesser crime that the shit he probably got up to as a Blackwater merc, if not as a multiple-tours soldier. The whole point of these fucking mercenaries the US hires is that they do the highly questionable shit the formal military wants to keep its hands clean of.
If you've already decided that you're going to put moral qualms away and have a former Blackwater mercenary as your representative candidate, you ought to have at least a little pushback and debate over flippant accusations. Especially """credible""" allegations of an actual crime that took place within the statute of limitations, yet there is no discussion whatsoever of potential arrests or criminal proceedings.
>>804042In the story, Platner is the one who is drunk not the woman. Speaking electorally, Platner would need to run up the numbers with this exact demographic of older women to win in Maine so disparaging the victim would cause permanent reputational damage to the left-wing movement and likely an embarrassing loss regardless. Even if you firmly believe the woman is lying it's just bad strategy.
>>804042problem with twitter is that the website is designed in a way where you need to yell the loudest in order to get any attention, so most of the userbase is forced to post edgy ragebait or constantly virtue signal in order to get those precious imaginary internet points
like, take an actual issue that exists in the real world, transphobia. on twitter, they will start witchhunts over the tiniest issues, and the problem is that it just minimises the actual issue, because when you see a clueless but ultimately harmless old person getting painted as a hateful transphobe for misgendering a trans person, the word transphobia loses its original meaning. every little err is turned into the ultimate sin, twitter users need to understand that life is not black and white and there are degrees to things
I feel like I have more misogynistic takes in theory than in person. I feel a lot for his victim who came out to tell her story even though I’m constantly complaining about women.
>>804042>If you've already decided that you're going to put moral qualms away and have a former Blackwater mercenary as your representative candidate, you ought to have at least a little pushback and debate over flippant accusations. Doesnt that work both ways? If you consider him a war criminal, then you should assume any accusations against him are most likely true.
>>804048>Doesnt that work both ways? If you consider him a war criminal, then you should assume any accusations against him are most likely true.No? Why would that be the case? Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean that every accusation made against them is true. I wouldn't accept a claim that Hitler regularly beat and raped Eva Braun that had no evidence behind it just because I don't like Hitler.
>>804027I heard about this guy on /leftypol/ like yesterday. Why waste time on candidates who have skeletons like this in closet? Not because of morality but because winning elections.
Platner sucks since he is the white male version of AOC, but the rape allegations against him are absolute bullshit. You have to be lobotomised to actually believe in it ffs.
https://xcancel.com/jeremykauffman/status/2074455720083288345https://xcancel.com/mtracey/status/2074278131762938310https://xcancel.com/mtracey/status/2074306787579179247https://xcancel.com/richardbspencer/status/2074529377115922722If even chuds can see through the lies, I don’t see why you can’t. Honestly the American left is screwed if some asinine MeToo-style BS allegation is a bigger dealbreaker than the fact that the guy they’ve been supporting was some Blackwater merc with a dirty laundry.
In Platner’s defence, EVERY army guy has some dirty laundry, and the red army was no exception.
>>80402
he's the world's most obvious fetterman in waiting and the reason the establishment were able to get him so quickly was because someone already had the information and decided not to report it until after the primary.
him getting a seat isn't as important as it seems since what matters in senate votes is the marginal senator. e.g. in a senate where everyone always votes, if you have 50 extreme leftists, 50 extreme rightists, and the VP is a moderate, the result is a moderate senate because the moderate is the tiebreaker.
>>804054Did you really just unironically link a Richard Spencer tweet on leftypol? You're really admitting that you agree with Richard Spencer? Unironically?
>>804034They use that argument to defend things they like. But when it comes to things they don’t like, they turn into exorcists
>The Graham Platner case is living proof that most Leftists who say that morality is spooks dont believe in that
The people who denounced Platner are obviously not the openly non-moralfag types
>>804061On that one instance in regards to the false rape accusations against Platner?
Да
>>804051This guy already polled high in Maine. He was evidentially much more popular with actual voters than he is with his critics
>>804027I think a disinfo campaign would backfire but yeah American leftists are on the whole strategically fucking stupid. There's also been a suspicious number of non-Americans who've been obsessively anti-Platner. The whole thing was clearly a hasbara smear campaign and if American leftists had any sense they wouldn't keep falling for it. But Americans love to boil down everything into a good vs evil conflict. For American leftists, rightoids must be evil puppy kickers and leftists are good and morally pure.
Granted, the Trump administration has absolutely enabled this dynamic. Trump not only has awful policies but he's also personally repulsive and corrupt, and hires awful people like Kristi Noem, Pete Hegseth, etc. Likewise the DSA tends to gravitate towards candidates who have strong likeable personalities, e.g. Mamdani. It's easy to think it's a fight between mean people and nice people. But it's not always like that. Sometimes you get a Bush or Reagan who was personally likeable but engaged in horrendous policies that led to the death and suffering of millions. Sometimes you get a sleazebag who has a closet full of skeletons but is super fucking effective at promoting and enacting the greater good. MLK was a womanizer and the FBI tried to blackmail him with it. Getting shit done is far more important than personal moral purity.
One of these days hasbara is gonna throw an accusation bomb at Mamdani and we'll see the American left once again engage in a circular firing squad and nullify all the good work he's been doing and then scratch their heads and wonder why nothing good ever happens in this country. Being smug on the internet is now more important than helping real people, for the American left.
>inb4 erm akstually not reel leftistsdon't care lol
>>804076> what difference does it make if you replace an old senile bourgeois zionist with a young, alcoholic, brain damaged petty bourgeois zionisthasbara agents love to muddy the waters don't they
>>804327Even now he's still more popular than Janet Mills in Maine lol.
To the point that I expect a lot of people will write him in and split the vote making Collins win easily.
Democrats seizing defeat from the jaws of victory again and again and again.
>>804076I genuinely don't understand why there's this much arguing over a mediocre social democrat like we haven't had this same exact shit happen with bernard and AOCIA. I just show my fellow amerifats videos on the SPD activities from 1914 to now instead of entertain this bs.
>>804357The real problem is this cult of personality/hero worship/role model dynamic that both the left and right uses.
>Getting shit done is far more important than personal moral purity.I beg to differ. Charity starts at home. How many great leaders hav been found out to be wifebeaters, child neglectors, pederasts,etc?
Being a civil servant means you should have your shit together before fixing other people.
Some personal vices, like weed and booze and porn are fine. But anything that causes harm to others in your private social circles should be dealt with immediately.
>>804357>complains about hasbara>dickrides MLK (zionist)kek
>>804372>I beg to differ. Charity starts at home. How many great leaders hav been found out to be wifebeaters, child neglectors, pederasts,etc?Was that supposed to be rhetorical? A lot of them lol. Now Hugo Chavez is cancelled because I guess he was a rapist too. Maybe something about being a leader just requires rapist energy.
>The real problem is this cult of personality/hero worship/role model dynamic that both the left and right uses.I agree on this point tho but I think it is antithetical to the second point you made. Really doesn't matter once you get past trying to reduce mass movements down to exalting some figurehead.
Morality is a spook in the sense that it's an idea rather than a physical thing but it really doesn't matter at all. We have already agreed on a lot of moral things and it works really well. We all agree that raping and killing people is bad, we agree that pedophilia and racism is bad. Who the fuck cares if it's objective? It works. Religious assholes do the same thing there's nothing against marrying a 15 year old in any major religious text yet if you say that you're doing that to a religious person they'll freak out. We're all hypocrites and it doesn't matter. We have a good thing going, everyone just needs to shut the fuck up about moral philosophy and we'll live in a much more peaceful world
>>804377>Now Hugo Chavez Cesar, damnit, I corrected myself after looking up the pic in the middle of the post but forgot to correct the text.
>>804358nothing muddy about it. it is perfectly clear that plapler married into an aipac family after a life of serving capitalism, zionism, imperialism. he is not meaningfully different from susan collins except for being 41 instead of 73. you just want to replace old zionists with young zionists and cry "hasbara" at anyone who notices.
>>804361he's not even a social democrat. he's just a democrat. it is not the "exact same shit" it is the "exact same shit but even more absurd." instead of finding someone better than bernie and AOC they managed to find someone even worse.
>>804379Tell that to these anti-shippers and other neopuritans who get upset over cartoon porn or erotic fanfiction with "non-vanilla" elements.
>>804377>Was that supposed to be rhetorical? A lot of them lol. Now Hugo Chavez is cancelled because I guess he was a rapist too. Maybe something about being a leader just requires rapist energy.Then you shouldn't have any problem with Epstein
>>804372>Charity starts at home.Fuck no. Why does individual good have equal weight to the collective good?
Or are you naive enough to believe that personal shortcomings are reflective of larger politics? Surely no "clean" politician has ever done evil things.
>Being a civil servant means you should have your shit together before fixing other people.This is unironically Jordan Peterson conservative logic.
The end result is nothing happens because no one has their shit together. At least no one capable of positive change. And it gives the establishment capitalists a massive advantage because they have far more resources to cover up or downplay their own misdeeds.
We don't live in a "marketplace of ideas" where everyone has an equal voice and is treated with equal merit. We live in a consolidated corporate media landscape that advances the interests of its owners. They will attack their enemies and protect their allies. Any purity test will result in an automatic double standard.
So essentially you are advocating for endless circular firing squads while suffering from external bombardment.
>>804375MLK was just an example of someone who had major progressive political influence that had skeletons in his closet. The idea that he should have just given up when the FBI started blackmailing him (even demanding he commit suicide) is ludicrous.
I do give mid-20th century Zionists slightly more leeway than modern Zionists because they were more naive about how things would go and they had a different understanding of Zionism back then. For example Einstein called himself a Zionist but he didn't actually support a state of Israel (which modern Zionists don't want you to know).
Hasbara operations have absolutely advanced significantly since MLK's day. Hell they just got a ton of new funding (hence the concerted attacks on Platner).
>>804379>Morality is a spook in the sense that it's an idea rather than a physical thing true
>but it really doesn't matter at all. false
>We have already agreed on a lot of moral things and it works really well. true
>We all agree that raping and killing people is bad, we agree that pedophilia and racism is bad. true
>Who the fuck cares if it's objective? it's about upholding the needs of the living collective over the needs of the individual and/or the dead.
>It works. true
>Religious assholes do the same thing true
>there's nothing against marrying a 15 year old in any major religious text yet if you say that you're doing that to a religious person they'll freak out. true
>We're all hypocrites and it doesn't matter. it matters a little in certain situations. our socially constructed subjective systems of morality begin to collapse if a critical mass are openly hypocritical. this is why systems are upheld by "credibility enhancing displays" (look it up, there's research)
>We have a good thing going, it could be better and if we try it might actually get better
>everyone just needs to shut the fuck up about moral philosophy and we'll live in a much more peaceful worldfalse. debating, reforming, and overthrowing our old hypocritical moral systems is how we create new and better ones. Want to go back to Might Makes Right? Doubt it.
>>804381It's muddying the waters because you're pretending like there hasn't been a massive hasbara + AIPAC opposition to Platner. Do you know something they don't? They obviously believe he would be meaningfully different in terms of policy from Collins or Mills.
And yes it is a hasbara tactic to pretend that all sides are equally bad, because it's designed to demotivate, and where does that lead to? The status quo, which benefits Israel.
>platner pulls out after the democratic party (which is not left wing) makes clear it won't materially support his campaign
>somehow this is left-wing moralists fault.
people love to imagine they have agency
bait thread
>>804389is platner meaningfully anti-israel in any way?
>>804386>Fuck no. Why does individual good have equal weight to the collective good?Collectivism is made up of individuals.
>Or are you naive enough to believe that personal shortcomings are reflective of larger politics? Surely no "clean" politician has ever done evil things.Tbh it both is and isn't. Personal shortcomings aren't always directly from individual preferences.
>This is unironically Jordan Peterson conservative logic.Nah, Jordan Peterson wants you to grovel to his impression of masculinity.
>The end result is nothing happens because no one has their shit together. At least no one capable of positive change. And it gives the establishment capitalists a massive advantage because they have far more resources to cover up or downplay their own misdeeds.Sohen you admit that we as a society are wrongfully gatekeeping young people from their own prospects with all this talk about "maturity" and "development".
Discouraging marriage and childrearing in the early twenties because "they're too unstable" while older people are allowed to their sex and offspring without much criticism.
>We don't live in a "marketplace of ideas" where everyone has an equal voice and is treated with equal merit. We live in a consolidated corporate media landscape that advances the interests of its owners. They will attack their enemies and protect their allies. Any purity test will result in an automatic double standard.So essentially you are advocating for endless circular firing squads while suffering from external bombardment.
Then, all this woes about education being "dumbed down" because of any lack of "intellectual diversity" is laughable.
Both the left and right complain about their political opinions being persecuted in schools, accusing liberalism of "ruining everything".
>>804388>false. debating, reforming, and overthrowing our old hypocritical moral systems is how we create new and better ones. Want to go back to Might Makes Right? Doubt it.Anons on here are more drawn to "might makes right" but with leftist aesthetics.
>>804389> there hasn't been a massive hasbara + AIPAC opposition to Platner. they oppose him for not being reactionary enough. it's that simple. they cry even when they win.
>>804389i don't talk shit about platner in real life. I only do it on here. that's what is funny about you assholes. you screech hasbara at anyone who criticizes platner, no matter the context. he's dropped out and you're still defending him. it's not even a matter of strategically supporting him against collins. collins dropped out and it was still "you're hasbara if you notice this guy is married into a family with AIPAC connections."
now he's dropped out and the stakes are lower than ever. not that the stakes were ever highy to begin with. it was never about this stupid ass senate race in maine. it was never about voting for another fucking shitlord democrat. it was about you cucks punching left and upholding people who spent their entire lives supporting everything shitty.
why should i believe kayfabe? why should i believe a blackwater merc suddenly had a change of heart? what is this? a christmas carol for children?
>>804396We're at the stage of capitalism where not privatizing things fast enough makes the bourgeoisie cry about communism
>>804397you're being anti-semantic
>>804399Just like when the right rationalizes Trumps association with Epstein
>>804400>>804402We've been dealing with that since the 1940s
>>804405>muh heckin NAZI tattooof course zionists want to make him out to be a nazi
but he is a zionist
it is simple
why? because happily and voluntarily killed arabs for 20 years on behalf of israel. it really is that simple. actions speak louder than campaign trail rhetoric. burgers of course don't care about arabs so they got more offended at him raping white women stateside than being a prison guard at abu ghraib.
>>804405>Have you done zero research on this?yeah i've been pretty tuned out since he just looks like your standard dem candidate. did he actually do anything of note?
>>804408the establishment is mad because a petty bourgeois populist was running instead of the usual ancient big bourgeois ghoul, so retards on here latched onto him as some kind of anti zionist anti capitalist messiah
>>804396So… there is a difference after all. Good to know!
>>804399>he's dropped out and you're still defending him…He's dropped out and you're still attacking him.
This is too funny. Calling you hasbara is actually complimenting you because it's saying that you're being paid to be retarded and aren't just being this retarded for free.
>it was never about this stupid ass senate race in maine.This is a perfect crystallization of the arguments against the OP: This entire thing was never about material reality. It was always about moralism, being smug and judgemental on the internet.
>it was about you cucks punching left??????
I really should have screencapped the number of posts that brought up Platner unprompted on /USApol/ over months and months, all while ignoring the numerous other openly Zionist political candidates and existing politicians. That is not organic. That's not people simply having concerns. It was a coordinated campaign across the internet, by a well-funded government operation. And yes this shit still matters because it worked. It's been happening and it will happen again, and again, and again. I can at least call it out while it happens.
>>804407>>804408>couldn't even watch THE FIRST FUCKING FIVE SECONDS OF THE CLIPI'm amazed at how lazy modern internet users are.
>>804410>spend months spamming anti-Platner posts>now act like it was a one-sided defense of Platner the whole timeYou know, this place is just as bad as 4chan, same anonymous cowardice taking advantage of the site's ephemeral nature to engage in revisionist history.
>>804405>joins the US army in the GWOT after 9/11>fights in afghanistan for US imperialism and zionism>fights in iraq to overthrow a baathist who once launched missiles at israel, in a war based on lies made up by mossad agents>fights for a mercenary company owned by betsy devos's brother, who is an evangelical right wing psycho >did all of this because he wanted "adventure" even though his parents offered to pay for his college>married into a family with AIPAC connections>goes shooting with his AIPAC brother in law on his secluded private property>owns a small business>ran as a democrat>used the same campaign agency as john fetterman>dropped out because rape allegations from an american women matter more than bombing non-americans for years on end
<but muh nazi tattoo or whatever PROVES the zionists hate him and DONT WANT HIM TO WINthey prefer collins to platner the same way they prefer a blowjob to a handjob. platner represents a handjob for them. good for them, but they want more.
>>804414buddy I bake and archive the USApol threads. any time I point out this faggot spent his whole life being a goon for zionists i get called zionists. fuck off.
>>804411i'm not watching your gay ass media video because you ignored all my actual arguments about why he spent his entire life serving US imperialism and zionism in favor of spamming some clickbait about a tattoo
>>804404it's simple: Victim is american vs. Victim isn't american. Americans won't admit it but a good deal of them find the rape of one white american woman more objectionable than blowing up an entire school full of children in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, or Yemen.
>>804411>…He's dropped out and you're still attacking him.that's right. and you no longer can complain that I'm sabotaging his all important campaign to defeat someone not much different from him
>>804411>i am shocked at these MORALISTS who find a guy who kills people for fun objectionable, don't you know a democrat needs to win in mainekys
>>804411>So… there is a difference after all. Good to know!not enough of a difference for me to hold my tongue to save a campaign that already ended
>>804027>If you truly believe that morality is spooks your first instinct shouldve been to bunker down and run a disinformation campaign against the women that's testifying against Platner rn because him getting a seat is much more strategically importantits you and all democrat dickriders that do moralism by ignoring class in the name of some le greater good (or lesser evil) like you are doing now, he is a petite porky that was running for a bourgeois party, if you are a prole ultimately there is no reason for you to "bunker down" and defend him
>>804027>most Leftists who say that morality is spooks dont believe in thatdo you not know what Marxists believe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Stirner#Karl_Marx_and_Friedrich_Engels<"The number of pages Marx and Engels devote to attacking Stirner in the unexpurgated text of The German Ideology exceeds the total of Stirner's written works.<In the book Stirner is derided as Sankt Max (Saint Max) and as Sancho (a reference to Cervantes' Sancho Panza). As Isaiah Berlin has described it, Stirner "is pursued through five hundred pages of heavy-handed mockery and insult." The book was written in 1845–1846, but it was not published until 1932.<Marx's lengthy ferocious polemic against Stirner has since been considered an important turning point in Marx's intellectual development from idealism to materialism. It has been argued that historical materialism was Marx's method of reconciling communism with a Stirnerite rejection of moralityBourgeois morality:
>"J Street liberal Zionists are anti-Zionist. Platner is a committed anti-fascist for SMASHING THE STATE in Iraq etc"Proletarian leftists rejecting spooks:
> "the morality of J Street is Baal worship child murder but they care about LGBT"the difference between illusion and material reality could not be more clear
>first instinct shouldve been to bunker down and run a disinformation campaignthat is exactly what anarcho-neoliberal Zionists have done just like Stirner and all his anti-Marxist followers would have wanted (wikipedia lists Derrida and Foucault and Deleuze and Lacan, Gabriel Rockhill's description of the "compatible left" remains undefeated in its explanatory power)
>>804030>no im not making this post to defend PlatnerOP you believe that "There is no such thing as society, there are only individuals making their preferred rational economic choices as they navigate the marketplace" You are 100% aligned with the neoliberal ideology of the Epstein cabal, even moreso than Platner is despite his years of loyal service in SMASHING THE STATE for Zionist finance imperialism
>>804389>pretending like there hasn't been a massive hasbara + AIPAC opposition to Platner.Platner and other J Street cadndiates are also Zionist baby murderers but they say trans rights, this is just a fascist gang conflict between two sects of pedos, nothing more.
>>804054<Kauffman is also a member of the Libertarian Party's Mises Caucusmore satanic Baal worshippers than Jeffrey Epstein ✅
also Michael Tracy literally believes that Jeffrey Epstein was an innocent who was victimized by evil Lolita teenagers, you can't get more bourgeois morality than a PMC who is basically Humbert Humphrey
>>804462lets be real leftoids love using stirnerite language of "spooks" while also pretending to be marxists
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