/siberia/ - Off-topic

I am quite conflicted with this.
On the one hand, yes.
I believe that the real “bourgeoisie” are the middle class.
The actual bourgeoisie aren’t all living it up in mega mansions. Or rather even if they were, it’s not like they can just sit on their asses and lounge about all day.
The middle class while not being the richest, seem to consume a lot more resources than they would ever care to know.
In fact, it’s because of the middle class that the bourgeoisie is able to live comfortably.

Yea sure, peasants/serfs/slaves are the ones who do all mining and harvesting. But when it comes to the manufacturing, shipping, handling, stocking?
That’s mainly middle class people doing those jobs.
It’s mainly the middle class people who are doing all these protests, mass shootings, and other scandals mainly.

However on the other hand, if we got rid of the middle class, it won’t get rid of the problem. It will mean more for the proles and lumpen to shamelessly consume and become emboldened to power scale their transgressions.

Lumpens are the second biggest stain in society.
And no, I don’t mean homeless people.
I’m taking about mofos with houses who don’t wanna work. The bitches and pinks that wanna solicit at corner stores all day and start harassing their fellow civilians for not “checking in”.

Dude the actual middle class have been mollested out of existence in 2008 you are fighting ghosts.

>>807419
Idk man. The middle class still exists although they aren’t as loaded with money as before

>>807392
>But when it comes to the manufacturing, shipping, handling, stocking?
>That’s mainly middle class people doing those jobs.
those things are done by workers still. the middle class is an unproductive parasite that makes society worse simply by existing

>>807386
The middle class professionals dismantled the New Deal. Their Soviet counterparts dismantled the USSR. Will they dismantle Socialism with Chinese Characteristics also? Are they the actually existing revolutionary class?

>>807424
A lot of those workers are middle class. Middle class people aren’t doing nothing.
They’re the ones working those jobs.
Also, I think we should really define middle class by salary, not by type of dwelling place.
Apartment dwellers can be middle class.

>>807386
the middle class can only exist beneath a framework of nobility, who dictates to them what is and isn't permissible. whatever problems you have with the middle class are problems that originate from the upper echelon of society. it's "trickle-down degeneracy" if you want a fancy term for it.

>>807386
>middle class,
No such thing.

Life is the problem generally. It's not a gift but more of a curse that you have to endure or find a way to find to endure.

>>807447
how is someone working in a market or a factory middle class? these are low income jobs

>>807419
they run shit in my town, and most of the towns around it

The middle class is another illusion created by the bourgeoisie and they are footsoldiers for the capitalist agenda

>>807491
in america, if you make between 35 and 80k you are considered middle class, more than that and you're starting to inch into upper middle class territory. most factory jobs will be anywhere between 15 and 25 dollars an hour, and this range is the same for various blue collar work as well. non-unionized truckers, plumbers, electricians, roofers, and the like, all make somewhere in this range, maybe more or less depending on where they live and their level of experience.

80k a year is a weekly paycheck of 1500 bucks, sans taxes. it might seem like a lot of money to someone living in the global south, but if you lived here you'd see that it's, in fact, not a whole lot at all, and really, it's hardly enough for a single person to scrape by. if you want kids, one income alone needs to exceed 100k, but usually both partners work and combine their incomes to reach that annually.

>>807386
Middle class is a floating signifier that doesn't mean anything. It covers everyone from the lower end of the obscenely wealthy to the only sane people in the world (those not so poor that it has damaged them, but not so wealthy that it has deluded them.)
In general terms, however, the vast majority of people who identify with any particular class group are pricks.
>But Anon, what about the Working Class™
The average person who identifies as working class is some kind of lumpen (the chinese are why I do heroin all day! it's Muslims fault I haven't moved out of a town that hasn't had any prospects - of any kind, not just employment - since the mill closed following WW1!) petit bourgeoisie (No you don't get it, I work with my hands as a plumber so the fact I own my own business and earn more than the average office worker means nothing. No, you don't get it, I have a silly accent and my dad was a plumber so the fact I'm a literal landlord means nothing…) or middle class with a chip on their shoulder (No you don't get it, I may now be a head teacher / NHS manager / Labour MP, but my dad was a toolmaker! I'm entitled to all I can take!!)

This system reaches its dumb and codified apotheosis in the UK, where nurses are considered middle class on like £25k/year while a train driver on £60k/year is working class, and where government hiring then discriminates on this asinine basis.
e.g. the civil service summer internship is restricted to people who had parents in "lower socio-economic backgrounds", only this takes no account of income and rests on the NRS social grade system, which is entirely vibes based. If your parents are both nurses and you're desperately poor? Sux2bu, should've had a Tube driver (£71k/year rising above £80k/year with overtime, against a national average more like £35k/year), oil worker (£60-100k at the engineering end), or petit bourgeois plumber/gasman/electrician/for a dad.

>>807491
Factory wages vary wildly. In the US big 3 automakers, for example, an assembly worker can make $83k/year, the average US factory worker makes $76,350 (and up to $106,691 when factoring non-wage benefits), the average food-processing factory worker makes $33,159/year, and the national average across all occupations is ~$65,000. The idea of the oppressed and low-income manufacturing worker in a cool industry (like cars, shipbuilding, manufacturing "real" goods and not stuff like chicken sandwiches) is the ghost of a long-dead past. Meanwhile on the flip side, a chunk of nice (traditionally) middle class jobs have been proletarianised.

>>807491
They make more than customer service work

>>807503
>In general terms, however, the vast majority of people who identify with any particular class group are pricks.

This.

And it’s usually they’re trying to make themselves sound more hardy and humble than they really are.

Everyone works, even the lumpen.

>The average person who identifies as working class is some kind of lumpen (the chinese are why I do heroin all day! it's Muslims fault I haven't moved out of a town that hasn't had any prospects - of any kind, not just employment - since the mill closed following WW1!) petit bourgeoisie (No you don't get it, I work with my hands as a plumber so the fact I own my own business and earn more than the average office worker means nothing. No, you don't get it, I have a silly accent and my dad was a plumber so the fact I'm a literal landlord means nothing…) or middle class with a chip on their shoulder (No you don't get it, I may now be a head teacher / NHS manager / Labour MP, but my dad was a toolmaker! I'm entitled to all I can take!!)

This. What these people you mentioned don’t realize is that they’re not all special.

>>807483
This. Even in the animal kingdom there’s social division

>>807497
I earn the equivalent to 300 USD monthly in my junior tech office job lol.

I was going to post this to QTDTOT but its more relevant here, does anyone else know why middle classers are so fucking obsessed with muh personal choice, its like there go to cope. If someone is suffering than it doesn't matter because "they chose to do so" or something to that effect and if someone implies that being a member of a post agricultural society might mean they have to actually be do something like not have open sewage out in the streets or be treated equally under the law all the sudden its a personal attack on their "freedom of choice". I've had middleclassers tell me saltwater intrusion into groundwater isn't a problem because "they chose to live there" or that trains and clean water regulations on bad since it limits their personal freedoms. Is it just the usual vulgar liberalism and prosperity gospel or is there more too it?

>Sensitive fern unrelated

>>807639
Middle class people don’t care about personal choice.
If anything, personal choice is treated as some license of psychopathy to be outlawed

They think that everyone else’s flaws/nuances are gonna leak into their lives.

The fact that you’re framing “personal choice” as the same as “NIMBY” is especially telling

>>807639
You're not thinking of the middle class at all, you're just thinking of liberalism with the occasional tinge of yankee selfishness. Anyway, I'm going to be contrarian and go to bat for liberalism:
Life always entails trade offs, and individuals are generally the best at making those trade-offs for themselves. Living on an airport approach path and being exposed to airplane noise is bad for you, but crucially, I am better placed than you to know how well I will tolerate airplane noise. If I want to take a discount on my house because it's under an approach path, this is a much better situation to one where you intervene to ban people from living under airport approach paths (and thus reduce the supply of housing and perhaps nudge us into a situation where I cannot afford a house at all.) Additionally, if I misjudge then I am the one to suffer while everyone else (save perhaps my family) is fine, while if you misjudge at scale then many people will suffer. (e.g. in the case of banning housing under approach paths, that's obviously going to be more than one house off the market.)

There are of course cases where you can intervene and straightforwardly improve things for the better, but someone usually winds up paying. (e.g. you could keep housing supply constant and remove airplane noise by closing the airport, but that's obviously going to hurt travellers. You could build a new airport, but quite apart from money that's going to take time, resources, land, etc… and then the city will probably expand out to the new airport until there are houses under its approach path too.) Interventions usually work best when you leave people a choice, but tilt the scales somewhat. (e.g. Japan's car taxation system encourages most people to buy small, sensible cars while still allowing you to buy something more excessive if you really want to.)

I will even be contentious and put the case against trying to legislate equality. It is all well and good to have a law saying that your business cannot discriminate against minorities, in theory, but the UK shows that the state cannot always be trusted to enforce such a law in good faith.
The "Equality Act 2010" intended as an anti-discrimination law has now been stretched by truly ludicrous judicial interference so that businesses are obliged to discriminate against transgender people and prohibited from discriminating against anti-trans activists. ("discrimination" here including stuff like "not letting them use your comedy club to go on stage and whine about transgender people")
This is manifestly a worse situation for equalities than even the most vulgar libertarian "let the business owner set their policy and let the free market sort it out" approach. It is the sort of situation that a libertarian would dream up as a ridiculous strawman of state interference, but, nevertheless, it is what has happened.

>>807497
so how the fuck is it middle class if its not enough to go by?

>>807656
>The fact that you’re framing “personal choice” as the same as “NIMBY” is especially telling
FWIW the Train/clean water regulations rejection wasn't even for NIMBY reasons but the concept of them not being in full control of when a train leaves as opposed to a car.

>>807665
well there's a reason I said "vulgar liberalism" and not just liberalism in general since I recognize that libs that actually read their own theory(lowkey a dying breed) are perfectly capable of coming up with justification other than "well they just made bad choices mmmkay". I find the "scale-tilting" you speak of intriguing since the US almost has the opposite tilting where massive fucking ford trucks receive substantial benefits from protectionism. Also something similar is happening on American college campuses where DEI and diversity initiatives are being enforced in a such a manner that random conservatives get special treatment because of "ideological diversity". sounds like your typical instance of well-meaning liberal reforms back firing since they're blind to the economic base on principal.

Biggest realization is that the American poverty draft is a meme, and if you come across at current soldiers on their social media accounts that are active(they love oversharing), and if you dig back during their recruitment phase or before joining, they come from the suburbs with whose caretakers/parents have mcmansions/houses. The volunteer military is there to serve the interests of the not only the bourgeoise but the petit bourgeoise(usually inspiring/avoiding downward mobility) too.

>>807802
Tbh I think the poverty draft was a thing in the past but not so much nowadays

In fact if anything, I wouldn’t be surprised if the military are now restricting acceptance of inner city/ trailer park kids because of potential PR issues

OP here, this thread is once again a perfect example that almost everyone on this site never leaves their home and just repeats shit they hear and see online like a bunch of clapping retards. Get your head out of your asses you fucking autists.

>>807858
I'm sorry I'm too angry because of the heat , I love all my comrades

>>807858
No offense but it seems to me that the people you’re describing seems to be you

You’re the one assuming that middle a class people are pharaohs who don’t do any work at all
I will admit that they’re a massive drain on resources but to say they don’t do any dirty work at all is a major stretch.