/siberia/ - Off-topic

You're a good kid Franklin

People who joined the Nazi Party felt that way too.

>>818174
Ok next you should join a cult and feel way more satisfied with yourself.

>>818182
commie parties are way closer to a cult tho

>>818191
Yeah but clearly OP is not submerged enough

>>818174
Any person who bases their beliefs not on any rational deduction of the truth of that belief, but on the social implications of various beliefs and the perceived social status of the people who hold them should be stripped naked and thrown into a cage in the zoo to be gawked at like the fucking chimps that they are by actual sapient human beings.

>>818208
This is why I remain a schizo leftist despite being portrayed as a weak they/them incel by the media.

>>818174
>meet normal well adjusted employed people
sounds like hell

>>818208
Sorry but this is an omega-autistic take.
You are never going to have a movement where everyone is 100% ideologically committed. There's always going to be incentives that appeal to self-interest. The Black Panthers' mutual aid programs for example were essential.
Yes movements should have social appeal.

>>818253
I'm not even talking about politics and ideology, necessarily. I'm talking about ALL of your beliefs.

If your opinion on whether the earth is flat or the earth is round is based purely on how much you like flat-earthers vs how much you like round-earthers, and what cultural signaling you think your position might create, you belong in a zoo.

>>818174
>actually do praxis
such as?
>feel accomplished
what did you accomplish?

>>818233
Irony is most western commie parties are composed of do nothings anyway.

>>818174
>is communism just fucking stupid?
Kinda yeah lol. Look at every AES country. What do they have? They have basic social democratic policies that will never go away and are enshrined by the constitution, even though the working class still has to do wage labor. The SOCIALIZATION of all these services, makes their basic needs a human right within that society even if it isn't explicitly stated. At worst, it's highly highly subsidized by the state as in China for their medical coverage (with plans to improve this).
Bernstein and kautsky were more correct than hardline marxists will give them credit for (and I like marx, who doesn't??). The USSR collapsed, we never had a communist mode of production, but in a sense we actually do have lower stage socialist production (because input/outputs in AES countries basically makes it so that most of your surplus actually does go into things you voted for).
In western Yurop, this is also kind of the case but to a lesser extent. Socialism kind of actually is when the government does stuff. Except that stuff the government is doing has to be beneficial for the people within and without the State.
Take the normal pill. It's nice.

>>818174
Communism the idea is fine, and directionally it appeals to a more extreme and perhaps more neurotic version of socdem psychology.
Communism as in actually existing communist orgs, the things communists say to theorywash their underlying emotional instability, the dumb shit /leftypol/ weirdos (who also have imageboard user mental illness) etc, is fucking stupid. It is the dumbest thing imaginable. Look at your SocDem org and notice how it can handle basic things like "recruiting new members", "getting someone elected", "distributing leaflets around an entire area", "governing a municipality", now contrast the average cargo-cult communists who distribute a handful of newspapers making "demands" they have no capacity to enforce, on behalf of a working class which has never heard of them, to people who're only buying out of social awkwardness.

And they have no plan to change this! It's LARP! It's LARP all the way down! It's enough to drive you to madness if you really sincerely believe in communism. They will deflect and go "oh, but elections are pointless anyway" - yeah, sure, true, but in the absence of electoral performance as a proxy for competence you better have some fucking measure of progress you can show to demonstrate you're not worthless, and you don't have that because you are!

>>818208
The trick is to do both. Socially acceptable analysis in public, real analysis in private.

>>818233
Ironically the students are closer to the actually existing working class of 2026 than the dated theoryLARPers, but that's a matter for another post.

>>818208
but anon, similarity signals, commitment signals, and coalitional signals form the basis of socialized ritual, which is how human evolved to signal their loyalty to ingroups through costly action rather than empty words long before class society even developed. I used to feel like you, then I realized that people engage in credibility enhancing displays and pure dedication to abstractions like truth is seen as a rare behavior from either outcasts or leaders depending on whether the person exhibiting the strange behavior has already signaled commitment and sacrifice through costly action.

>>818174
beware the mark of the antimarx

>>818174
Seems like upholding status quo gets you a stable life.

>>818323
Marx was such a pseud for calling utopians "utopian" when a chunk of them actually put their ideas into practice, rather than presupposing revolutions that still haven't happened. (All "AES" states have been an alternative path through industrial capitalism rather than "actual" socialism)

>>818330
Addendum: by trying little experiments, failing, and learning from them the "utopians" were far more scientific than the "scientific socialists" who even now will tell you straight faced that the USSR was a success because of this or that little detail of daily life there, ignoring the major point that it collapsed.

The Chinese I can give more credit to.

>>818330
the term wasnt used pejoratively, though. engels described it as a natural development given the conditions of its time
>This historical situation also dominated the founders of Socialism. To the crude conditions of capitalistic production and the crude class conditions correspond crude theories. The solution of the social problems, which as yet lay hidden in undeveloped economic conditions, the Utopians attempted to evolve out of the human brain. Society presented nothing but wrongs; to remove these was the task of reason. It was necessary, then, to discover a new and more perfect system of social order and to impose this upon society from without by propaganda, and, wherever it was possible, by the example of model experiments. These new social systems were foredoomed as Utopian; the more completely they were worked out in detail, the more they could not avoid drifting off into pure phantasies.

and despite their limitations, utopian socialists brought about actual results which are also recognised by engels
>At this juncture, there came forward as a reformer a manufacturer 29-years-old – a man of almost sublime, childlike simplicity of character, and at the same time one of the few born leaders of men. Robert Owen had adopted the teaching of the materialistic philosophers: that man’s character is the product, on the one hand, of heredity; on the other, of the environment of the individual during his lifetime, and especially during his period of development. In the industrial revolution most of his class saw only chaos and confusion, and the opportunity of fishing in these troubled waters and making large fortunes quickly. He saw in it the opportunity of putting into practice his favorite theory, and so of bringing order out of chaos.
>He had already tried it with success, as superintendent of more than 500 men in a Manchester factory. From 1800 to 1829, he directed the great cotton mill at New Lanark, in Scotland, as managing partner, along the same lines, but with greater freedom of action and with a success that made him a European reputation. A population, originally consisting of the most diverse and, for the most part, very demoralized elements, a population that gradually grew to 2,500, he turned into a model colony, in which drunkenness, police, magistrates, lawsuits, poor laws, charity, were unknown. And all this simply by placing the people in conditions worthy of human beings, and especially by carefully bringing up the rising generation. He was the founder of infant schools, and introduced them first at New Lanark.
>At the age of two, the children came to school, where they enjoyed themselves so much that they could scarely be got home again. Whilst his competitors worked their people 13 or 14 hours a day, in New Lanark the working-day was only 10 and a half hours. When a crisis in cotton stopped work for four months, his workers received their full wages allthe time. And with all this the business more than doubled in value, and to the last yielded large profits to its proprietors.
>In spite of all this, Owen was not content. The existence which he secured for his workers was, in his eyes, still far from being worthy of human beings. "The people were slaves at my mercy." The relatively favorable conditions in which he had placed them were still far from allowing a rational development of the character and of the intellect in all directions, much less of the free exercise of all their faculties.

>>818319
Of course, you can pretend to have more socially acceptable opinions for the public and then different opinions in private, but that's fundamentally different from letting your perception of reality be dictated by the whims of various social games.

>>818321
But these people are chimps who belong in a zoo, you understand.

>>818455
>But these people are chimps who belong in a zoo, you understand.
But anon, for better or worse, you are describing the behavior of a majority of humans of all backgrounds. how is a small minority going to imprison the vast majority of humans in a zoo unless… oh my God… society was the zoo all along!!!!!!!!!

ZOO IS LITERALLY A PLACE WHERE YOU KEEP DOMESTICATED ANIMALS AND HUMANS WERE THE FIRST DOMESTICATED ANIMAL BECAUSE HUMANS DOMESTICATED THEMSELVES

What praxis bruh, what are you talking about??? Israel is getting away with genocide, the imperial core is still getting fatter off the suffering of the global south, something that social democracy both needs in order to work and even activaly partake in, madame, dsa, bernie, all of this shit, its fake, its just a tempoary realese valve, jingeled to gulible people when the contredictions become too visable, you getting the bare minimum of a social life is not a replacement from proof, evidence, a social life that the average gazan has been deprived or never had the chance to have, entire family and social circle killed during an airstrike coneucted by a ”state” whose founders themselves were ”social democrats”, a state that people like bernie still defends the existance off, with a token concession about ”them going too far” here and there, remember rosa, remember what they did to her

>>818462
>the imperial core is still getting fatter off the suffering of the global south
it literally doesn't have to be that way and you know it

>>818174
I hope you're reading the vibes in this thread because it should give you a pretty straight forward answer lol

>>818455
A lot of elements of your perception of reality can't help but be shaped by these games. We are a social species.

>>818462
Rosa was a victim of LARP. She knew the attempted revolution was premature and went along with it out of sheer obligation, and she was right that it was premature. Spare a thought for Liebknecht, if only because he's condemned to permanently be the #2 figure of a third-rate attempt.

>>818295
in order to have red social democracy thoughever you still need a revolution first. that's why burgers will never have social democracy

You have to start with socdem to achieve communism, because these are modes of production. You materially can't just hit the "do communism" button during capitalism, but there is a "do socialism" button that lets you start making the "do commuism button"

>>818348
>These new social systems were foredoomed as Utopian; the more completely they were worked out in detail, the more they could not avoid drifting off into pure phantasies.
Oh yes, it’s better to just give ephemeral sketches that people will guess about for hundreds of years.

>>818275
no responses chek

>>818253
Okay but OP's argument is "I made friends and felt accomplished", he didn't even name any actual accomplishments.

>>818491
Existing modes of production didn't need anyone to write a full "Here's How Society Should Be Organized" document for everyone to follow before they could exist, they emerged slowly from historical circumstances. If communism really is the mode of production that follows the full development of capitalism, there's no reason for it to be different.

>>818520
Liberalism and capitalism had a lot of people writing about its development and how it should be organized politically. Like the School of Salamanca or Montesquieu.

>>818320
this is a misrepresentation of anon's point, anon is providing an argument *against* OP's implication that feeling these things makes a political party or group more correct than another

>>818520
This is true as it goes, but then it makes the work of communists mostly pointless. Go out and get a bourgeois economics degree and push capitalism to its final conclusion. All minor reforms (of the sort Utopian socialists would hit on, or that "AES" regimes might implement while clearly still pushing through the capitalist stage in practice) can take the form of policy papers and lobbying groups, all major reforms and visions of communism in the here and now are "Here's How Society Should Be Organized, Please Implement It For Me.pdf" and can be overlooked except as idealistic visions.

This sounds like a bad faith suggestion but I am increasingly coming to the belief that this is the correct path. At least in theory, obviously in practice "communists endorse Abundance Liberalism" is one of the lamest sentences in the world. since actually-existing communism is mostly LARPers and poseurs, this is really a question of how a communist should orient himself - ostensibly as a lib but with a longer term vision - than what communists should do in aggregate. Useless communists can only hurt themselves and liberals by trying to pair the two openly.

>>818520
>Existing modes of production didn't need anyone to write a full "Here's How Society Should Be Organized" document for everyone to follow before they could exist
Because their whole point wasnt establishing political control over economic activity. Not to mention, revolutions need a vision of society to be established.

>they emerged slowly from historical circumstances
Passive voice obscures the fact things dont just emerge on their own, they were made by conscious effort of people existing within those historical circumstances.

>>818470
I don't completely disagree with this tbh. Because like, say what you will if you're a parent anti-campist neoleftcom and you screech about muh red fascism or whatever… They had full blown revolutions and the communist party dictatorship over their economies makes it so these "social democratic" redestributive policies are cemented. They never have to fight against their mortal enemies in a stupid fucking election cycle every 4 years just to keep basic shit like this.

So yeah, if a bloody revolution is what it takes just to get basic improvements for workers quality of life and compensation/actual universal social programs, then we in the west are fucked. Which is also why it's retarded to be a LARPing anti-social-democrat USSR worshipping, WW2 obsessed "communist" who never participated in mainstream politics out of some accidental reinvention of the wheel in regards to Kantian ethics, because… You're literally getting nothing done but patting yourself on the back because you aren't commiting any sins (autistic for deontological precepts and a refusal to embrace gray areas).

>>818586
>Conscious effort
Muh great man theory…

But seriously you can't just expect that the problem with communist endeavors of the past were felled by a LACK of effort, there has to be a degree to which the thing you're trying to do is feasible within the confines of the human social essence, whatever that may be. At some point, you need to try and find an economic and political program that makes decisions and production *easier* than capitalism, or else all you have is moralism which no one, especially not the masses, gives a flying fuck about, even if it means their "liberation" and "freedom".

>>818610
Election cycles are only rarely a mortal issue. Most of the time changes in ideas take place across the party system, for better or for worse. (e.g. during the postwar keynesian period even parties of the right oversaw welfare states, during the present period even parties of the left oversee blackest "right populist" reaction.) Even in China (the most successful and smartest of the "AES" regimes) you see welfarism wax and wane over time.

>>818611
Those regimes made a lot of effort, but a lot of it was utterly misplaced. e.g. vast human effort directed into trying to avoid trade-offs rather than analyse them properly / "Hurrah planning"

The real distinction here is whether your economic and political program needs to rearrange the totality of society, or just some tractable piece of it. It isn't great man theory to say that the Starbucks union guys' efforts have been better placed than all the efforts of LARPers combined.