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Why can’t we just go back to being bros ?

Fool me once.

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>>821708
Because the longer you wait, the more would the USSR outscale you in productive forces.

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>>821885
>wikipedia
Nazi Germany's industrial capacity consistently dwarfed the USSR's. The USSR had to rely on Lend-Lease to fill critical gaps in production for things like high-octane fuel, explosives, motorized transportation, and most importantly food (the Red Army was on the verge of famine in 1941-1942 and very well could've collapsed if it weren't for Lend-Lease food aid).
Germany's military output was partially hindered and lagged behind the Soviets in some areas (mostly tanks and aircraft) because Hitler and the Nazis refused to adequately curtail the domestic civilian economy's supply, something the Soviets didn't give a fuck about. German military production only peaked in 1944, and by that point it was way too late. I think Hitler was reluctant because he was conscious of the fact that Germany during WW1 had collapsed on the home front in part due to the crippling effects of the Entente's naval blockade that immiserated ordinary Germans. Germany was also handicapped from endemic resource shortages for things like oil, copper, and tungsten and had no Lend-Lease equivalent.

>>822255
the point is that the slavs started as a peasant shitholes then the ussr started psychotically developing its productive forces to the point where the nazis wouldnt be able to do their lebensraum if they wated

>>822267
*waited

>>822255
Afaik the historical consensus is that the lend lease helped a lot but wasn't a decisive factor for the war

>>822267
Well, Russia actually began rapidly industrializing in the late 19th century under the reign of Tsar Alexander III and continued under Nicholas II. Look up Sergei Witte and Pyotr Stolypin's reforms. Russia didn't need Bolsheviks to advance its productive forces. All the Bolsheviks did, especially under Stalin's five-year plans and ending of the NEP, was inefficiently rush development that would've happened anyways at a more sustainable pace. This isn't even mentioning the millions of people that needlessly died because of the civil war's violence, war communism, and collectivization.
None of this matters, as Germany always had the upper hand on production. The Germans just chose not to disproportionately allocate that production to the military to the extent that the Soviets did.
>>822279
Yes, that's true. However, consensus doesn't always equal correctness.
If the Nazis had played their cards differently, and Lend-Lease never happens, I think you can make a pretty strong case for the USSR losing. Stalin, Khrushchev, Zhukov, and Mikoyan have all privately admitted this. I don't see why we shouldn't believe them.

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>>822255
Wikipedia uses sources in their articles, you can check them and confirm it yourself.

>Nazi Germany's industrial capacity consistently dwarfed the USSR's

Dwarfed is a wrong terminology. As an example In 1938, Germany produced 200~% the steel Soviets produced, in 1940-41, it was only 110%. Soviets had also already passed Germans in production of machinery tools.
In matter of years, USSR was closing the gap of anything but for some consumer goods such as paper. Soviet factories were deemed productive for a society still had most of its population tied to the agriculture, and many of them were designed by domestic and foreign specialists.

Hitler and other german high command were aware of the massive Soviet scaling, and this is one of the primary reasons they rushed for the war.

>The USSR had to rely on Lend-Lease to fill critical gaps in production for things like high-octane fuel, explosives, motorized transportation, and most importantly food (the Red Army was on the verge of famine in 1941-1942 and very well could've collapsed if it weren't for Lend-Lease food aid).


Lend Lease in general barely arrived in the USSR before 1942.
You are wrong for the food part, lend lease of rations barely arrived to the USSR during 1941-1942 and the union still relied on domestic supply. Even though their agricultural output had slashed 1/3 what it was before. The matter of famine was an internal matter of how rationing would have been made. Food Lend Lease was effective after 1943, which is similar to near all types of lend leased goods. Lend Lease then allowed Red Army to grow in size without putting an extra toll on peasants.

>Germany's military output was partially hindered and lagged behind the Soviets in some areas

It was lagged behind in nearly every military area, and arguably the most important military equipment in WWII is aircraft.

>>822287
>Well, Russia actually began rapidly industrializing in the late 19th century under the reign of Tsar Alexander III and continued under Nicholas II. Look up Sergei Witte and Pyotr Stolypin's reforms.

Over the course of those 30~ years, the "rapid industrialization" didn't achieve much and 90%+ of the population were still tied to primitive agriculture. You can't really compare late Russian Empire industrialization (which was miniscule in scale due to no industrial base at all, but going from 0 to 1 is "massive" i guess) with Bolshevik one, as they were under different material circumstances. Didn't you make a thread about how Tsardom would perform better than Bolsheviks with some "gdp growth" study? I answered you there.

>inefficiently rush development that would've happened anyways at a more sustainable pace.


In no period of NEP was there such a growth in material output under the 5 year plan. How so it is inefficient?

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>>822288
>Wikipedia uses sources in their articles, you can check them and confirm it yourself.
Yeah, and they're usually either garbage sources or completely misquoted. If you're using Wikipedia for anything other than a starting point or basic facts, you need to have your head checked out.
>Soviets had also already passed Germans in production of machinery tools.
This isn't true at all. Germany was outproducing the Soviets even as late as 1944.
>Hitler and other german high command were aware of the massive Soviet scaling, and this is one of the primary reasons they rushed for the war.
Barbarossa was a preventative attack.
>Lend Lease in general barely arrived in the USSR before 1942.
This is meme history and Soviet propaganda cope. Lend-Lease aid began arriving in large numbers before Operation Uranus (the encirclement of the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad). By this point, the USSR was on the verge of famine. Without the aid, they would've starved to death.
>>822290
>Over the course of those 30~ years, the "rapid industrialization" didn't achieve much and 90%+ of the population were still tied to primitive agriculture. You can't really compare late Russian Empire industrialization (which was miniscule in scale due to no industrial base at all, but going from 0 to 1 is "massive" i guess) with Bolshevik one, as they were under different material circumstances.
Counterfactual analysis is common. It doesn't predict the future, but it gives a pretty good idea of where Russia would be had WW1 and the October Revolution never happened. Russia would've been better off without the Bolsheviks.
>Didn't you make a thread about how Tsardom would perform better than Bolsheviks with some "gdp growth" study? I answered you there.
Your answer was retarded and so are you. Read the study if you're going to criticize it.
>How so it is inefficient?
Because it incurred heavy costs in human welfare compared to the counterfactual. Also, millions of people died (which the study purposefully ignored for the sake of argument).

>>822287
>that would've happened anyways at a more sustainable pace
they were preparing to be invaded and that is what happened with the nazis breaking the pact to pursue their manifest destiny garbage. there is the answer to your thread btw maybe ask why the nazis were the ones who decided to invade the soviets then entered a retarded war on two fronts

>>822295
>Yeah, and they're usually either garbage sources or completely misquoted. If you're using Wikipedia for anything other than a starting point or basic facts, you need to have your head checked out.

https://archive.org/details/germany-and-the-second-world-war.-vol.-1-9-1990-2017
Historian Horst Boog's, which seems to be primary source for the wiki page, research book is here.

>This isn't true at all. Germany was outproducing the Soviets even as late as 1944.

Bad comparison. USSR was at a destructive war, lost a portion of its working population, industry, farms & lands. Soviet industry was fully committed to the war, and through the war outproduced Germans in equipment. Prewar trend was that Soviet industry being on a very similar scale in industrial production just before Operation Barbarossa, and if it had not happened, would surpass it.

>Barbarossa was a preventative attack.

Outright Nazi propaganda. (Just like how Poland "declared war" on them while it is just some SS soldiers in undercover blowing a a german radio station. Polish parliament didn't even receive the ultimatum, Germans invaded Poland just a day after they announced it. ) USSR delibaretly demobilized their western border to not antagonize Axis and Soviet diplomats were urging Allied Powers to peace out with Germans before France capitulated. (https://histdoc.net/pdf/A_Statement_by_Stalin_on_Allied_Responsibility_30.11.1939.pdf)

>Your answer was retarded and so are you. Read the study if you're going to criticize it.

I've partially read it, but when you, who probably read the entirety of the study, failed to adress my claims and formalize an argument. The study analsyses Soviet and Russian Empire's economy in GDP metric, which makes no sense at all, Soviets didn't even calculate their economy with GDP, but material balance.

Why you, who was supposedly familiar with the research and how it is conducted, and "why it should be accurate", were reluctant to explain?

>Because it incurred heavy costs in human welfare compared to the counterfactual. Also, millions of people died (which the study purposefully ignored for the sake of argument).

Longevity of life in USSR was always increasing over the course of mass industrialization and mass production of new healthcare goods. More life would be lost to general mortality. Also Western researchers and press had no to little idea what is going on in Soviet Union and its people, and rather fabricated numbers or had their source as some oral confessions of "escaped gulag prisoners"

>>822299
>USSR delibaretly demobilized their western border
holy cuck

>>822295
>This is meme history and Soviet propaganda cope. Lend-Lease aid began arriving in large numbers before Operation Uranus (the encirclement of the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad). By this point, the USSR was on the verge of famine. Without the aid, they would've starved to death.

Primary source of Lend Lease programme's effect on the Soviet war effort is Head of Gosplan Nikolai Voznesensky's "The Economy of the USSR during World War II", which gives the 4% impact figure to the impact of Lend Lease to overall soviet war effort. Other sources of historians rely on rather assumptions and skepticism towards official calculated Soviet data. But ig its all soviet propaganda because all the foreign data regarding the case relying on guesses is more reliable.

Total Lend Lease food sent in tonnes to the USSR amounted 4-4.5 metric tonnes over 4 years, the yearly agricultural output of the Union in 1940 was 95M~ metric tonnes alone. Holy cope

Kruschev's quote is dubious too, would like some sources.

>>822300
Axis amounted 150%+ more in manpower at the beginning of the OP Barbarossa, best Soviet reserves were stationed in Japanese border, Soviets were more cordial with the Axis at that point than Allied powers. I think there is an info going on in internet that Stalin rejected Soviet intelligence reports of german mobilization and kept the bar low just to not antagonize them.

>>822299
>Prewar trend was that Soviet industry being on a very similar scale in industrial production just before Operation Barbarossa, and if it had not happened, would surpass it.
Oh, so now all of a sudden you're in favor of counterfactual analysis.
Also, it's just not true. Soviet industrial capacity was never poised to overtake Germany's.
>Outright Nazi propaganda.
Not an argument.
>USSR delibaretly demobilized their western border
Me when I spread misinformation online.
>failed to adress my claims and formalize an argument
Why should I address your claims about a text you know nothing about? Especially a text that you haven't even fully read regarding a thread that no longer exists? Why do I have to spoon feed retard faggots like you?
>>822301
>Total Lend Lease food sent in tonnes to the USSR amounted 4-4.5 metric tonnes over 4 years, the yearly agricultural output of the Union in 1940 was 95M~ metric tonnes alone.
Well, about half of that tonnage was lost by 1942, since Germany controlled the Ukraine, the Volga, and the North Caucasus regions. Also, caloric intake ≠ tonnage so your point is irrelevant anyways.
>would like some sources
It's from Khrushchev's memoirs. No, I will not be spoon feeding and giving you a link. Kill yourself.

>>822296
>they were preparing to be invaded
Stalin ended the NEP and began collectivization in 1929. The Nazis came to power in 1933, and wouldn't share a border with the USSR until 1939.

>>822304
>Oh, so now all of a sudden you're in favor of counterfactual analysis.
It is what Germans thought Soviets would do. Soviet industry was on par with German industry in 1941 for almost all goods just before the war statistically. And 10 years before it was a whole another story)
>Also, it's just not true. Soviet industrial capacity was never poised to overtake Germany's.
Heh, it overtook them in war production already and peacetime values were already close to German ones, and USSR were very recently undergoing 5 Year Plans.

>Why should I address your claims about a text you know nothing about? Especially a text that you haven't even fully read regarding a thread that no longer exists? Why do I have to spoon feed retard faggots like you?

If you had explained with citations and actual argumentations I'd researched more about it. You are just avoiding to discuss, and it is okay if that is your wish. When we are both partaking in a discourse, it is oftenly our intuitive judgements hiding beneath a semblance of universality of truth.

Still it is kinda absurd when you give Russian Empire as an example of rapid industrialization while it achieved very little over the course of decades and also Germany which increased their, like steel production 8~ tonnes in matter of a decade(1930-1940), while USSR did the same number in less than the duration of one 5-year plan, with a way smaller industrial base! Nazi leadership were rightfully afraid.
But at the end, the matter of debating mostly involves with persuasion of an another, rather than pinpointing at the universal truth. And I guess we humans, subjected to our particular natural conditions, are all persuaded in various ways…

>Well, about half of that tonnage was lost by 1942, since Germany controlled the Ukraine, the Volga, and the North Caucasus regions. Also, caloric intake ≠ tonnage so your point is irrelevant anyways.


Most rations had to be still domestically distributed and structured. Of course US help mattered, but again, you can never be sure of its real impact while statistically it is rather small. Food insecurity is a thing too for both domestic production and foreign intake.

>>822304
>Me when I spread misinformation online.
English is not my native, I guess I used demobilization instead of undermobilization(relative to Axis). My mistake there.

>>822295
>soviet propaganda
sure thing adolf, you guys lost

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>>822308
>Soviet industry was on par with German industry in 1941 for almost all goods just before the war statistically.
It wasn't and there's no evidence that it was catching up.
>it overtook them in war production already and peacetime values were already close to German ones
Germany had the Soviets beat on everything, aside from tanks and aircraft. This has nothing to do with Germany's productive capacity per se, but rather the Nazis' political decisions regarding production.
>If you had explained with citations and actual argumentations I'd researched more about it.
I had written a reply in the thread I made on the main board before it was deleted by the jannies for no reason. I don't feel like writing it again, and there's no point in spoon feeding you.
>achieved very little over the course of decades
Russia grew to be the fifth-largest industrial power by 1913 in terms of aggregate output. That's not "very little."
>while statistically it is rather small
The Bolsheviks themselves admitted it was crucial. If I remember correctly, Lend-Lease supplied enough food aid to feed over 10 million Soviet troops for over 4 years.
>>822309
It's not true regardless. Soviet troops were deployed on Germany's border in an offensive formation along the Molotov Line. Mark Solonin talks about this.
>>822324
>no argument

>>822390
Picrel literally proves nothing lol and somehow derives the conclusion that Germany "outproduced", while in important equipment listed in article, USSR is always ahead. In nearly each battle in Barbarossa and aftermath, USSR possessed more avaliable tanks, assault guns, artillery, mortar, firearms, aircrsft.
USSR did not have to produce any locomotives or steam cars, they already overproduced it during their industrialization drive and had a fleet of 28k+ locomotives.
They didn't need to produce trucks too since they were mostly received via lend lease. Car production is more about soviet division composition.

Wartime production numbers can be seen in article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II , wherein most cases USSR outproduce entirety of Axis powers, not just Germany :)

>Germany had the Soviets beat on everything, aside from tanks and aircraft.

False, Germany entered the war with less tanks and aircraft, and the gap remained same while Soviets had substiantial losses of equipment.

>Russia grew to be the fifth-largest industrial power by 1913 in terms of aggregate output. That's not "very little."

It is little for such a vast country, France outproduced them.
And it was second largest industrial power in 1945-1991 :)

>The Bolsheviks themselves admitted it was crucial. If I remember correctly, Lend-Lease supplied enough food aid to feed over 10 million Soviet troops for over 4 years.

1M metric tonnes per year over 4 years is, if we assume that Soviets lost 2/3 of their agricultural output, is 4%~ of Soviet agricultural output. Of course the aid mattered tho.

>>822305
it wasnt just the germans they were preparing for. russia had already been invaded multiple times by various capitalist nations. stalin understood something bad was brewing

>>822395
>Picrel literally proves nothing
Then you're retarded.
Military output isn't limited to just tanks and aircraft. In terms of overall military output, Germany produced more. Production of specific items do not reveal the entire war effort, which is measured in capacity, volume, and expenditures. No point in denying this, other than cope.
>They didn't need to produce trucks too since they were mostly received via lend lease.
They needed Lend-Lease because they literally did not have the industrial capacity to adequately produce their own trucks.
>False
True
>It is little for such a vast country
Cope.
>And it was second largest industrial power in 1945-1991 :)
According to counterfactual projections, Tsarist Russia would've achieved approximately the same results and millions of people wouldn't have died from the civil war and collectivization.
>1M metric tonnes per year over 4 years is, if we assume that Soviets lost 2/3 of their agricultural output, is 4%~ of Soviet agricultural output.
Strawman. A small share of total calories can be decisive if it fills a critical bottleneck or arrives at a specific moment, which is what Lend-Lease food aid was.
>>822423
>stalin understood something bad was brewing
Aliens.

because emotional coddling by our constant 24/7 exposure to on-demand digital content has created a society of fairweather friends who are only capable of taking, never giving; they will use their friends to vent their frustrations or ask for huge favors or talk about some serious issue but the moment their friends try to do the same back to them, they quietly slink away and go hang out with some other friend. it's a whole culture of users and abusers, because nobody can handle inconvenience or emotional discomfort anymore, nobody has the courage or integrity to be straight-up with their friends or have an argument about anything, everyone just wants free entertainment and free emotional validation without having to give anything in return because that's what they're used to getting from their computer or their phone, everyone's forgotten how to be a human being.

>>822433
>Military output isn't limited to just tanks and aircraft. In terms of overall military output, Germany produced more.

1939-1945 Production Summaries
(Germany here also implies output of occupied territories of France and so on)
Tanks & SPGs -> USSR: 119.5k / Germany: 67.4k
Half Track -> Germany: 49.7k / USSR : 0
Other Vehicles -> USSR : 265k / Germany : 159k
Artillery -> USSR : 516k / Germany1 : 73k
Mortars -> USSR : 363k / Germany: 104k
Machine Guns -> USSR : 1.477M / Germany: 1M
Total Aircraft -> USSR: 136k / Germany: 133k
Total Cost of Mutinion Production in US 1944 Mutinion Prices -> USSR : 56.6B$ , Germany: 53.4B$

These are the recorded facts. Notice the only metric Germany have upper hand is half tracks , which USSR didn't have in its divisions

>They needed Lend-Lease because they literally did not have the industrial capacity to adequately produce their own trucks.

They did produce more domestic trucks than Germans. And Soviets used trucks in their mobile/armored divisions instead of mechanized halftracks.

Funny enough, Canada alone produced more trucks than Germany/Italy/Japan combined over the course of WWII.

>>822433
>Strawman. A small share of total calories can be decisive if it fills a critical bottleneck or arrives at a specific moment, which is what Lend-Lease food aid was.

According to published Soviet statistics (https://www.scribd.com/document/843129889/Vov-75-English?utm_source=chatgpt.com#google_vignette) (page 190~)

>Food shipments started to arrive from 1942. The receipt of the canned meat was most needed. In 1941-1944, a total of 4.3 mln. tons of food were received from the USA and Canada. This amounted up to 25% of total tonnage of supplies (slightly more than 10% of its total consumption for the troops needs throughout the war). The average annual supply of grain, cereals, flour, (in grain equivalent) amounted to 2.8% of the annual grain procurement in the USSR.


As stated, foreign lend lease made about 10% of the Red Army's food consumption. Nowhere near to your overexaggeration.

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>>822255
>The USSR had to rely on Lend-Lease
God you pseudointellectuals are so retarded its gone from funny to annoying. I've had to address this in some braindead variant 3 times in 3 months; e.g. https://archive.ph/v9pSp#801438

>German production dwarfed

False. The only economy to dwarf the USSR was the USA's AT THE TIME. This was primarily because the USSR lost nearly half of its production capacity at the start of the war and had to dedicate manpower to fighting on their own territory whilst the mainland USA remained all but unassailed. Germany meanwhile had the industrial backing of the entire European Continent and some foreign investment from the USA for the first few years to boot. The fact that the USSR's tank and air force numbers outsized Germany's before and throughout the war is proof enough.
Tank Production
>Soviet Union:
1942: 20,727 plus 4,582 lend-lease
1943: 28,608 plus 3,798 lend-lease
1943: 28,963 plus 3,223 lend-lease
>Germany:
1942: 4,800
1943: 11,800
1944: 17,800
(Source: M Harrison, Soviet Planning in Peace and War 1938-45, Cambridge 1985) Keep in mind that Lend Lease tanks were primarily things like used Matildas and M3s which were both all but useless in muddy and snowy conditions and were of both poor quality and design, particularly for 1941 and after.

At its peak in 1944, Allied aid to the USSR accounted for about 10% of the Soviet GNP. (Note 'Allied' - it wasn't just American aid).

>High-Octane Fuel

Soviet aircraft were flying on lower octane fuels for years, their engines were literally designed to be compatible with almost any fuel type from the start, it's why similar engines were mounted on the T-34. Lower-grade fuel limited ceiling and speed (a little) but that didn't much matter when low-mid altitudes was where the primary usage of aircraft from both sides occurred.

>Explosives

The USSR was producing plenty of explosives but more importantly it always had immense stockpiles, the same for practically all Lend Lease products. Aluminum production was low because the Alcoa (the US corporation) had a virtual monopoly on stockpiles of bauxite (hence one of the reasons Japan was trying to push The Dutch, British and US out of South-East Asia). The USSR had a lower production rate but also didn't use Aluminum in the same quantities and used steel or laminated wood-composites (not literal wood) instead. Furthermore it relied on stockpiles of Aluminum it either produced prior to the war or bought with hard-currency from Alcoa prior to the war. I say this because the same applies to explosives but even more so. The USSR had a massive explosives production stockpile. The USA however had an untouched industrial base and had one of the best chemical production industries in the world, so the help was accepted; it made the war go faster.

>Lend Lease food

320 MILLION tonnes of wheat alone was produced in USSR 1941-1945. Without the lands occupied by nazis. The Total sum of ALL food from Lend Lease was 4.478 million tonnes. 1.4% of just the wheat crops in Soviet Union. And the majority of ALL Lend Lease arrived after 1943, AFTER the Battle of Stalingrad, when Soviet food and other industrial production had nearly recovered from its losses in the prior years and Two YEARS after the USSR stopped the Germans under Moscow with absolutely NO Lend Lease involved at that time. If you're going to bring up canned meat, it made up 10% of Soviet rations during the war.
Food and other strategic deliveries to the Soviet Union under the Lend-Lease Act, 1941-1945: https://histrf.ru/uploads/media/default/0001/12/df78d3da0fe55d965333035cd9d4ee2770550653.pdf
>motorized transportation
This is what you get when you don't know how statistics and industrial production work.
>01/01/42
Domestic russian trucks in service: 317,100
Lend lease trucks: 0
>01/01/43
Domestic Russian trucks in service: 378,800
Lend lease trucks: 22,000
>01/01/44
Domestic Russian trucks in service: 387,000
Lend lease trucks: 94,100
>01/01/45
Domestic Russian trucks in service: 395,200
Lend lease trucks: 191,300
>05/01/45
Domestic russian trucks in service: 385,700
Lend lease trucks: 218,100

A) Note: "trucks" cover any kind of military transport vehicles.
B) Note: By 1944 was 4-6% of the trucks in Russian service were captured from the Germans.
C) Keep in mind that trucks were destroyed in combat so domestic production was not only able to recoupe truck losses but increase the numbers before Lend Lease arrived, and continued to do so until late into the war.

A more compressed version: Red Army Motor Vehicle Park in thousands
Vehicle - Date 22/6/41 - 1/1/42 - 1/1/43 - 1/1/44 - 1/1/45 - 1/5/45
Domestic - 272.6, 317.1, 378.8, 387.0, 395.2, 385.7

% of Total Park - 100.0%, 99.6%, 99.7%, 77.9%, 63.6%, 58.1%
Imported- N/A, N/A, 22.0, 94.1, 191.3, 218.1

% of Total Park - 0.0%, 0.0%, 5.4%, 19.0%, 30.4%, 32.8%
Captured- N/A, 1.4, 3.7, 14.9, 34.7, 60.6

% of Total Park - 0.0%, 0.4%, 0.9%, 3.9%, 6.0%, 9.1%
Total - 272.6, 318.5, 404.5, 496, 621.2, 664.4


IF you take the time to decipher the numbers posted above, you will see that although there is no doubt the LL trucks helped a lot, they were in no way decisive in the outcome of the war (by decisive I mean their absence would have meant a German victory). The Soviets also purposely tailored their production to complement LL materiel deliveries, thus the reduced Soviet truck output from '43 onwards was not a result of their plant being maxed out, it was a conscious decision once it was clear LL trucks would become available in quantity so as to allow domestic production to focus on other areas of industry. On a side note, another little known fact about LL trucks is that about a third of them (119,000 mv) were actually re-assembled in Soviet factories after delivery.

All info on trucks from "Journal of Slavic Military Studies" Vol. 10, June 1997, "Motor Vehicle Transport Deliveries through Lend-Lease" by V.F. Vorsin.

>Germany's military output was partially hindered and lagged behind the Soviets in some areas (mostly tanks and aircraft) because Hitler and the Nazis refused to adequately curtail the domestic civilian economy's supply

Absolute rubbish. German civilian economy was entirely realigned with the military economy including food production. The USSR meanwhile was the first to stop using ration-cards after the war, even when countries like Great Britain were still needing them.
>Germany was also handicapped from endemic resource shortages for things like oil, copper, and tungsten and had no Lend-Lease equivalent.
Germany had the entire industrial and resource might of Europe at its beck and call in 1941 (see the archive.ph link)

The only honest thing in your post was
>Germany during WW1 had collapsed on the home front in part due to the crippling effects of the Entente's naval blockade that immiserated ordinary Germans
Which is why Hitler prioritized seizing the Ukraine.

File: 1789264544270-9.mp4 (6.3 MB, 1280x720, total cheese.mp4)

>>822520
Every person I've encountered who tries to argue against or minimize the USSR's reliance on Lend-Lease ignores that Lend-Lease aid was qualitative in nature, not quantitative. Lend-Lease was never designed to outright replace all aspects of Soviet production, but rather give it the qualitative edge it otherwise lacked and fill in gaps in key areas. Without this advantage and some different decisions taken by German leadership, it's not unreasonable to say that the USSR could've lost to Nazi Germany. After all, Molotov was practically begging President Roosevelt to expand Lend-Lease in 1942, and plenty of senior Soviet officials in the know have admitted its importance in securing victory later on.
>The fact that the USSR's tank and air force numbers outsized Germany's before and throughout the war is proof enough.
I've already addressed why this is shoddy a million times, but I'll do it again in more depth. The usual measurements (i.e. tanks, guns, airplanes, etc.) on which you guys are measuring output are based on a fundamentally flawed assumption. Germany's military output was much broader and spread across many sectors because Germany, unlike the Soviet Union, was fighting a multi-front air, land, and naval war.
The USSR NEVER outproduced Germany in total aggregate military equipment because German industrial capacity simply mogged what the Soviets had at all stages of the war.
Take steel supply. Germany / USSR:
1942: 28,744,000 tons / 8,069,600 tons
1943: 30,603,000 tons / 8,474,800 tons
1944: 25,853,000 tons / 10,886,700 tons
In 1942, German military production consumed 45.7% of steel supply (14,043,000 tons). In 1943, it was 52.7% (16,368,000 tons). And in 1944, it was 53.7% (15,378,000 tons). You can thus see German military production by itself dwarfing what the Soviets' had in supply. The usual measurements, tanks, artillery and small arms, only made up a small part of Germany's overall military output: 12.1% for tanks and half-tracks and 7.4% for artillery and small arms. Germany producing fewer tanks is a result of decisions in production, not because the USSR had a superior industry. If you want a fair comparison, you have to compare whole categories together, not just a cherry-picked selection. Once you do that, Germany actually comes out on top. See pic related here: >>822390
You focus on tanks, but completely ignore half-track, motorized, rail transport, and other equipment all the Germans outproduced the Soviets in. The Soviets gutted these sectors precisely to make room for tank production. Again, this is why Lend-Lease was critical. It filled in critical gaps in Soviet industrial capabilities, which is precisely what allowed the Soviets to focus so heavily on AFV and planes and neglect other sectors.
>High-Octane Fuel
Nobody said planes wouldn't fly on low-octane fuel. The argument is that they performed far better on high-octane fuel, which is something even you conceded, and later model planes all required high-octane. Lend-Lease provided around 60% of the USSR's aviation fuel, so it was definitely critical to the air war. Tetraethyl lead was also supplied to address the USSR's inability to produce its own high-octane fuel.
>Explosives
Barbarossa created severe shortages of explosives. More than half of TNT supply came from Lend-Lease, and Lend-Lease explosives made up roughly a quarter of the USSR's production.
>Aluminum
The point is that they couldn't produce enough. Why does the reason matter? Lend-Lease aluminum was roughly double Soviet domestic production. Half of the planes produced by the Soviets used Allied-supplied aluminum.
>Food aid
Omg. For the millionth time, tonnage ≠ nutritional intake. It was nutrient-dense food that was critical; grain was of secondary importance. Lend-Lease food aid equaled more than 50% of the sugar and vegetables, more than 20% of the meat, and nearly 100% of the fat consumed. The timing matters too. Food aid began flowing in large amounts before Operation Uranus in mid-1942 and peaked after the battle of Kursk in 1943. At that time, the USSR was verging on famine. In 1943, Lend-Lease food aid provided 17 percent of the Red Army's caloric intake. More broadly, the aid was enough to feed a 10 million-man army over the course of the war.
>Trucks
The point is that the Soviets gutted their truck production in order to produce more AFV and airplanes, and thus had to rely on Lend-Lease to fill the gap for new production. Your data proves my point, and even you concede that the Soviets tailored their production around Lend-Lease trucks.
>False. The only economy to dwarf the USSR was the USA's AT THE TIME.
I'm looking at Harrison's data on GDP, and Germany consistently has the USSR beat with the exception of 1940. Besides, Harrison's data only accounts for Germany itself. When the GDP of the countries Germany occupied is counted, the German economy absolutely dwarfs the USSR. Yes, there were significant costs and inefficiencies associated with enforcing these occupations, but the broader point remains true.
>Absolute rubbish. German civilian economy was entirely realigned with the military economy including food production.
Germany did not fully mobilize for total war until 1944, and that's when military production peaked. Goebbels's famous 1943 total war speech was mostly a meme and wasn't taken seriously by anyone in political leadership at the time, including Hitler.
>Germany had the entire industrial and resource might of Europe at its beck and call in 1941
So? Deficits remained. Especially oil and rubber.
>Zhukov quote
Pure Soviet state propaganda. That quote is taken from Zhukov's memoirs, Reminiscences and Reflections, which were subject to strict censorship and manipulation by the Soviet government.
https://moving-the-social.ub.rub.de/index.php/MTS/article/view/7491
Zhukov was much more candid about Lend-Lease in private:
<When we entered the war, we were still a backward country in the industrial sense as compared to Germany . . . Today [in 1963] some say the Allies really didn’t help us . . . But, listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us materièl without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war . . . We did not have enough munitions, [and] how would we have been able to turn out all those tanks without the rolled steel sent to us by the Americans? To believe what they say [in the U.S.S.R.] today, you’d think we had all this in abundance!

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>>822390
diddydolph is mad he lost

>>823137
>diddydolph
Did the Nazis have any nonces equivalent to Beria? Other than Dirlewanger, I can't think of any.

>>823134
>but rather give it the qualitative edge it otherwise lacked
why does this matter within the context of discussion? you have shifted the goalpost

>>823138
Erika is literally a song about a little girl they want to marry or whatever

>>823139
>you have shifted the goalpost
What goalpost have I shifted?

>>823141
Erika is underage? Proof?
The DDR had their equivalent of Erika called Monika.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W-GOsw9y_o

>>823143
>Erika is underage? Proof?
Read the lyrics my guy
<Look at this whataboutism
Neck yourself degenerate

>>823146
>Read the lyrics
OK, just did. Nowhere does it say Erika is underage.
>my guy
Hi Reddit

>>823147
uhm.. it just is, okay.

>>823138
Beria being a rapist was made up by khruschev, but the claim that he was a nonce is straight up conjured by westoids out of nowhere
Westoids projecting their noncery as usual

>>823175
Trump being a rapist was made up by biden, but the claim that he was a nonce is straight up conjured by democrats out of nowhere
Democrats projecting their noncery as usual

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>>823180
>everything is analogous to US politics

>>823330
Staliuyghurs aren’t communist though.

>>823134
>The usual measurements, tanks, artillery and small arms, only made up a small part of Germany's overall military output: 12.1% for tanks and half-tracks and 7.4% for artillery and small arms. Germany producing fewer tanks is a result of decisions in production, not because the USSR had a superior industry.

Your measurement here is flawed in assuming that every kind of productive force in German industry is "capable" of producing a specialized kind of good. You can convert a Tractor plant for the purpose of producing tank chassis, but you can't convert a toy factory to magically produce tank chassis. Germany simply lacked industrial specialization and productive forces to compete against the USSR in military production, and with the historical trend, in industrial growth.

German navy is a nothingburger, USSR still outproduced Germany in domestic trucks, USSR entered the war with an overproduced and vast locomotive and rail car fleet, and didn't need to produce anything domestic.

USSR alone also outproduced Germany (and ITS territories) in Airplanes, Artillery, Infantry Equipment & Clothing, Mutinions, Tanks, Mortars, Machine Guns…

What did Germany outproduce USSR in military manner? Half tracks that Red Army didn't even use in their division composition?

>>823804
>Your measurement here is flawed in assuming that every kind of productive force in German industry is "capable" of producing a specialized kind of good.
But it did. When you're not cherry-picking the type of military equipment and look at military production in the aggregate, Nazi Germany beats the USSR. The fact that Germany allocated less of its military production to tanks than the Soviets proves nothing.
>Germany simply lacked industrial specialization and productive forces to compete against the USSR in military production, and with the historical trend, in industrial growth.
Having more output in steel, coal, machine tools, and electrical; more skilled engineers (per capita); and better chemical, optical, and electronics industries than the USSR is lacking industrial specialization and productive forces? Kay.
>German navy is a nothingburger
The point is that Germany had to allocate a significant portion of its military production to sectors the USSR had basically no use for. This is because Germany fought a two-front war. Ignoring these sectors when measuring aggregate military output is disingenuous. Something that doesn't get talked about enough is just how much the Western Front drained Germany's resources that it could've used in the East.
>USSR still outproduced Germany in domestic trucks
lol
>USSR entered the war with an overproduced and vast locomotive and rail car fleet, and didn't need to produce anything domestic
If I remember correctly, about half of it was destroyed over the course of the war. Moreover, the Soviets gutted their production to focus on AFV and airplanes, not because it "didn't need to produce anything domestic."
>What did Germany outproduce USSR in military manner?
See pic related. It should also be noted that German Army fielded more land vehicles and ammunition than the Red Army despite being the smaller force (at least during the second half of the war). Thus, on a per capita basis, the average German division was much more motorized and had superior firepower than its Soviet counterpart. This makes sense, as the Germans maintained a 3:1 K/D ratio and a 2:1 ratio as late as 1944 and 1945 respectively, despite defeat becoming inevitable at that point.
One last point about the air war. While it's true the Soviets produced more planes, they also made much less sorties per plane because of fuel constraints. The Germans also outproduced the Soviets in avgas by a large margin until the Allied oil bombing campaign in 1944.

>>822300
except they won

>>823986
What is the source for "poopoo.png" , I can't really tell if it is any accurate.
I'd use this source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
As a more reliable one
1939-1945 Production Summaries
(Germany here also implies output of occupied territories of France and so on)
Tanks & SPGs -> USSR: 119.5k / Germany: 67.4k
Half Track -> Germany: 49.7k / USSR : 0
Other Vehicles -> USSR : 265k / Germany : 159k
Artillery -> USSR : 516k / Germany : 73k
Mortars -> USSR : 363k / Germany: 104k
Machine Guns -> USSR : 1.477M / Germany: 1M
Total Aircraft -> USSR: 136k / Germany: 133k
Total Cost of Mutinion Production in US 1944 Mutinion Prices -> USSR : 56.6B$ , Germany: 53.4B$

Your poopoo.png overexaggerates everything.
Also, where did the 20k tanks produced in 1944 go? To Ruhr pocket? To Army Group Centre?

Your other source is only counting military deaths lol.
Military death statistic counts military deaths in captivity as well, Soviets captured 4.5M German Soldiers, 600k of them died.
Germans captured 4.1M Soviet Soldiers, around 3M of them died.
Actual K/D is >1 for USSR post-1943, applies for any Soviet offensive during and after Bagration.

>Having more output in steel, coal, machine tools, and electrical; more skilled engineers (per capita); and better chemical, optical, and electronics industries than the USSR is lacking industrial specialization and productive forces?

USSR was producing more machine tools, only few M tonnes less of steel, similar amount of non-lignite coal with a 10%+ yearly output growth. Literally proves nothing when Soviet industry is more specialized on War and Heavy industry.

>than the USSR is lacking industrial specialization

Yes, German War Industry couldn't compete with Soviet War Industry and severely underestimated it. Production statistics pinpoint on that.

>a 2:1 ratio as late as 1944 and 1945 respectively

False? You are counting starving captives in the k/d ratio… also you can't reduce the entire war into a statistic of such simplicity, Operation Bagration had more tactical depth, coordination and harmony of combat divisions than the Operation Barbarossa, the first faced the war hardened German Centre Army Group and destroyed it, the second faced ill-organized, ill-structured Soviet Army.

>less sorties because of fuel constraints.

Would like a source, because Soviet combat airplane losses is way higher than the Axis even though in each theatre Soviets using more airplanes, perhaps due to Soviet pilots being inexperienced and German air tactics being more efficient.

>>823142
before it was oh soviets were always behind now it is lend lease was super important

>>822433
>Aliens.
why are you even posting here? we all know hitler was the one that broke the pact to fight a retarded war on 2 fronts but you want to hoi4 larp

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>>823134
>the USSR's reliance on Lend-Lease ignores that Lend-Lease aid was qualitative
Absolute codswallop proven by the fact that on paper the Tiger and Panther tanks were "better quality" than the T-34-76. This means nothing IRL because the German production was gummed up by overcomplicated tech being rushed into service with teething issues rather than focusing on mass production. The USSR had a T-34M in 1940 but put it aside because it would delay production when tanks were critically needed, instead incrementally integrating improvements.
> fill in gaps in key areas.
It did not as I pointed out. The totality of Lend-Lease food production wouldn't feed a division for a week, let alone the whole country. This is even more laughable because the majority of Lend Lease came at the end of 1943 and only actually got into use in 1944 onward, by which point Germany had lost several major battles of a scale the USA never fought during the war. D-Day, the Normandy offensive and Battle of the Bulge were some of the largest land battles the Western Allies fought in the war, yet would be considered a large skirmish on the Eastern front.
> Without
Conjecture. It is more than evident that the Germans would have lost from the outset. The only reason the war began in the early 40s and not later was because Germany needed resources and was eating itself trying to supply the warmachine, hence gambles like Anschluss, remilitarizing the Rhineland and the Division of Czechoslovakia. Hitler was gambling on Poland joining Germany, but had to use force triggering the official declaration of war by France and Britain, however neither country did much for months in the Phony War while Germany increased its military and then proceeded to capture Continental Europe with ease, Paris fell in the same period of time it took the Germans to capture a city block in Stalingrad.


>I've already addr

No you have not.
>Germany's military output was much broader and spread across many sectors because Germany, unlike the Soviet Union, was fighting a multi-front air, land, and naval war.
Fuck off. Germany had millions of men from across Europe, captured thousands of war-machines and countless weapons and the factories that produced them. They captured a third of Soviet industrial and agricultural production on top of that. They also had the advantage of not needing to uproot their industrial base and shift it thousands of miles. Britain had to acquire resources from over-seas and lacked manpower in both industrial production and military fighting to effectively compare to German forces. Germany's failure against Britain boils down to having an underprepared Navy because they accidentally started the war too early for their own good, and lacking heavy bombers because their doctrine was shit for a war against a true peer opponent willing to fight. France had the resources and manpower and just fucking gave up and lost due to tactical stupidity and general lack of willingness to fight, save for the brave few of the Resistance and folks like De Gaulle. Britain had an island to stay safe on.
And don't pretend Germany didn't have Japan and its considerable military tying up British and American forces in the Pacific.
The USSR kept a permanent, massive military contingent on their Eastern Border with accompanying supplies as a shield against Japanese treachery through the entire war. The USSR wasn't fighting Germany it was fighting all of Europe.
>The USSR NEVER outproduced Germany in total aggregate military equipment
Wrong. Unlike Germany it could afford to do more. The distribution of the rolled steel production in USSR looked as follows in millions of tons (this is only ROLLED steel):
  • Year/Total consumption/Military sector/ Percentage of the military consumption

1940 12.41/1.6/12.8%
1941 10.96/2.4/22.2%
1942 5.55/2.7/49.2%
1943 6.02/2.8/ 46.4%
1944 7.77/3.6/ 46.2%
1945 8.59/1.7/20.2%

  • Compared to Germany for total steel distribution

1st 1940 924/911/1835/50.4%
2nd ……. 979/905/1884/52.0%
3rd …….. 909/976/1885/ 48.2%
4th ……..1024/1180/2204/ 46.5%
1st 1941 1058/1200/2258/ 46.9%
2nd……..1033/1342/ 2375/43.5%
3rd ……. 1167/1352/ 2519/ 46.3%
4th………932/1377/ 2309/ 40.4%
1st 1942 1154/1490/2644/43.6%
2nd ……..1174/1603/2777/42.3%
3rd ………1100/1117/2217/49.6%
4th……….1253/1358/2611/48.0%
1st 1943 1414/1240/2654/53.3%
2nd …….. 1475/1421/2896/50.9%
3rd………1298/1133/2431/ 53.4%
4th ……..1269/1102/2374/ 53.5%
1st 1944 1338/1224/2562/52.2%
2nd …….1363/1237/2600/52.4%
3rd………1246/1082/2328/53.5%
4th ……..1179/875/2054/57.4%

Germany had 5x more steel distributed to the military and used at its peak 10 million tons of steel after taking soviet mines and factories in 1941-42. Soviet production prior to the war was higher than German war-time production ever was and was more than double Germany's pre-war production. If you're not understanding this translates directly into immense stockpiles of ready military equipment on the soviet side, meaning less overall output required. It also is important about what sorts of weapons are produced. The MG-42 was inefficient and ate too much ammunition, meanwhile troops were primarily using carbines rather than automatic weapons. The USSR meanwhile primarily used automatic PPSh and later PPS Submachineguns supplemented by rifles and both heavy and light MGs.

>You focus on tanks, but completely ignor

I am not ignoring, I gave an example of the USSR comparing to German production despite being at a major disadvantage and having a much larger stockpile of military equipment available and that Lend-Lease had little to no impact. You're shifting the argument into a completely different area.
<halftracks
the USSR did not use or need half-tracks nearly as much as you imagine, nor did the Germans who used horses more than the USSR did.
>The Soviets gutted these sectors precisely to make room for tank production
1) I already demonstrated that production for transport was reduced but still quite large
2) I already pointed out why this happened and why this is meaningless when millions of rollingstock are already in existence and war machine production is priority.
> It filled in critical gaps in So
No, it boosted existing Soviet military production because the USSR specifically built factories with such a dual-purpose in mind and specifically spent the pre-war period rapidly building up stockpiles.
>Nobody said planes wouldn't fly on low-octane fuel.
<The argument is that they performed far better on high-octane fuel
That is not the argument, the argument is that this fuel was critical to the USSR's fight against Germany, and is a lie because mildly better performance at altitude does not change a war, one man is not an army, nor is one plane or even a hundred planes. Furthermore you ignore that The Eastern front was primarily fought at low-medium altitudes, high octane fuel is important for high-altitude performance, having minimal influence otherwise. The USSR HAD a solution for high-altitude performance in the MiG-3, they specifically stopped production because it was not necessary.
>Lend-Lease provided around 60% of the USSR's aviation fuel
No they did not. They provided 37% of domestic production of Soviet aviation fuel according to Mark Harrison, Accounting For War (2002) and according to Soviet internal documents Справочник внешнеторговых операций в период 1941-1945 гг. it is even less. Furthermore AGAIN most of this arrived in 1944, after the USSR had won the war and it was simply a matter of how long they would need to fight. See pic rel
>More than half of TNT supply came from Lend-Lease
You're being deliberately disinegenuous. 23% of TNT was provided by Lend Lease. 37% of Tuolene as separately provided, which allowed for SOVIET FACTORIES TO MAKE TNT. The USSR processed acquired resources. Furthermore, again almost all of this arrived in 1944. Furthermore this also doesn't take into account that the USSR lost 2/3rds of its pre-war production in 1941 and again HAD STOCKPILES.
>The point is that they couldn't produce enough
And they supplemented with other materials, the point is that aluminum is 'critical' yet most military and civilian production didn't use aluminum including aircraft.
>Why does the reason matter
It matters because context is important, you troglodyte.
>Half of the planes produced by the Soviets used Allied-supplied aluminum.
No they did not, because the majority of Soviet aircraft weren't made of aluminum. The Yak-3 and La-5 were made of Delta-wood and steel. Even in 1944 most Soviet aircraft were made of partial aluminum construction mostly in the engine blocks.
>food aid
<tonnage ≠ nutritional intake
The nutritional intake of a few million cans of spam is fucking zilch compared to a hundred million loaves of bread, not to mention diary products.
>At that time, the USSR was verging on famine
<1943
Broad, meaningless statement, and in the context of your LL food aid (again arriving mostly after the worst of things passed in 1944) its a drop in the bucket, one that made things fractionally easier, yes (I did not say otherwise) but which were not decisive or critical.
>Soviets gutted their truck producti
You're just straight up making shit up at this point.
>Germany consistently has the USSR beat
No, Germany and all of combined Europe that it controlled, including captured Soviet production. The overall Soviet economy however was larger seen in the military allocation of resources in the USSR was still smaller for most areas than Germany and having much larger stockpiles, allowing for reduction of production in non-critical spheres.
> there were significant costs and inefficiencies associated with enforcing these occupations, but the broader point remains true.
<BUT
LOL
>Germany did not fully mobilize for total war until 1944
Germany's economy was already mobilized by 1943, before said speech, are you nuts? 1944 was the peak of it yes, but that's because they were ramping up.

>That quote is taken from Zhukov's memoirs

I am aware, I translated it verbatim to find an english version. I have that memoir on my bookshelf.
>Pure Soviet state propaganda
<subject to strict censorship and manipulation by the Soviet
Not an argument, nor true, you wikipedia surfing faggot. The memoirs or Zhukov are very much critical of the Soviet military in the war, such as, but not limited to issues in communication during the Battle of Moscow.
>When we entered the war, we were still a backward country in the industrial sense as compared to Germany
1) This is a misquote of something attributed to Zhukov, supposedly in a KGB report. This was first seen in 1994 in Journal of Slavic Military Studies by a notorious anti-Soviet writer Sokolov, whose article is riddled with poor citations and outright misinformation, and was later replicated by Albert Weeks in his 2004 book
2) the quote itself is questionable in nature as the document it supposedly comes from is basically hearsay, as is the quote itself.
https://crithis.quora.com/Was-Zhukov-right-about-Lend-lease-saving-the-USSR

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>>826919
>Absolute codswallop proven by the fact that on paper the Tiger and Panther tanks were "better quality" than the T-34-76. This means nothing IRL because the German production was gummed up by overcomplicated tech being rushed into service with teething issues rather than focusing on mass production.
Irrelevant to Lend-Lease's qualitative nature. Even if German tanks were superior on paper, that says nothing about whether the USSR needed Allied aluminum, fuel, trucks, or explosives. Category error. The quality of German tanks versus Soviet tanks is a separate question from whether Lend-Lease provided crucial qualitative inputs to the Soviet war economy.
>The totality of Lend-Lease food production wouldn't feed a division for a week, let alone the whole country.
Incorrect, and bobody said the aid was supposed to feed "the whole country."
>This is even more laughable because the majority of Lend Lease came at the end of 1943.
And? The aid in 1942, while not peak levels, was still critical. Operation Uranus relied on Lend-Lease, and its success was exacerbated by the fact several German mechanized divisions were diverted to Western Europe. Regardless, contrary to most perceptions, the Soviets were not "winning" in 1943. At best, 1943 was a bloody stalemate with the Soviets taking abysmally high casualties. Lend-Lease absolutely gave the Soviets enough of edge to just barely halt Germany's onslaught, and then eventually crush them when the aid came in full force by late 1943 and early 1944. In the first quarter of 1943, Allied food supplies supplied 17% of the total calories consumed by the Red Army. To claim this played a negligible role in holding the Germans back is disingenuous. A lot of the Red Army's operations from 1943 onwards, including Kursk and later Soviet offensives, were heavily reliant on Lend-Lease and even with them the Soviets took at least 3-4 times the losses the Germans did. Take Kursk for example, which is often cited as a Soviet "victory." The causality ratio reached as high as 1 to 12 (1 to 4 on average) in favor of Germany, which is almost unheard of. The Red Army performed so poorly that they would spend the entire Cold War covering up their abysmal performance by inflating German casualties and deflating their own. Consider the myth of Prokhorovka, which Soviet propaganda aggrandized as one of the largest tank battles in military history that resulted in heavy German losses. In reality, the Soviets lost over 200 tanks while the Germans lost around five. This is why I'm deeply skeptical of Soviet sources. These fuckers just habitually and brazenly lie about everything. Keep in mind, this terrible Soviet performance was against 60 percent of the Heer and less than 50 percent of the Luftwaffe. To claim that the Western Front played no role in bailing the Soviets out warrants deep skepticism. Really, the Germans could've potentially won the Battle of Kursk had Hitler not cancelled Operation Citadel because of the Allied invasion of Sicily, which required diverting additional manpower to the OKW fronts. The Red Army wasn't able to fight on after the losses of Stalingrad and Manstein's Masterstroke during the Third Battle of Kharkov (25k German casualties versus 250k Soviet casualties). The large influx of Lend-Lease aid in 1943 kept the USSR in the fight by allowing them to fight Kursk, and then launch a bunch of largely stalemated, attritional offensives with major losses in late 1943. Operation Bagration in 1944 is when the Soviets actually started "winning" the war, and by this point Lend-Lease was at its peak.
>D-Day, the Normandy offensive and Battle of the Bulge were some of the largest land battles the Western Allies fought in the war, yet would be considered a large skirmish on the Eastern front.
Not really true either. The casualty rate per division per day on the Western Front during the summer of 1944 was often higher than in the East.
>Conjecture.
Funny you say this and than offer your own conjecture that Germany "would have lost from the outset." By the end of 1941, the Soviets lost about 40% of its population, over half of its steel, coal, and aluminum production, and about half of its railway network. How is that evident of a German loss "from the outset"?
>They captured a third of Soviet industrial and agricultural production on top of that. They also had the advantage of not needing to uproot their industrial base and shift it thousands of miles.
Yes, exactly! Another very good reason why Lend-Lease was critical!
>And don't pretend Germany didn't have Japan and its considerable military tying up British and American forces in the Pacific.
Not really comparable. The UK and US forces in the Pacific Theater were largely naval and air; ground troops were a much lower portion. Even air force wasn't that much in the Pacific, it was mostly the US Navy. The US Army Air Forces and the British RAF's carpet bombing was almost entirely concentrated on Germany. Compared to over half the Luftwaffe being diverted to OKW theaters, as well as around 40 percent of the Heer. This comparison is dumb.
>The USSR kept a permanent, massive military contingent on their Eastern Border with accompanying supplies as a shield against Japanese treachery through the entire war.
The Soviets knew the Japanese were never going to honor the Tripartite Pact and attack via Richard Storer, which actually allowed some divisions to be freed up and used in the Battle of Moscow. Comparing the peaceful Soviet-Japanese border to Germany's multi-front OKW theaters is also dumb. The costs between the two don't match up.
>Unlike Germany it could afford to do more.
Your interpretation is wrong. The USSR's steel production was concentrated on military needs, while Germany's was spread across a broader range of military and civilian production. That's a decision of production, not a capacity of production. Germany chose to prioritize civilian production more than the Soviets did. The Soviets had a higher percentage of its steel to the military because it had far less steel to allocate, and because Stalin unironically cared less about his people than Hitler, as the latter worried about a civilian morale collapsing as what happened in Germany during WW1.
>If you're not understanding this translates directly into immense stockpiles of ready military equipment on the soviet side, meaning less overall output required.
Speculative and incorrect, again. A huge portion of this "stockpile" was destroyed during Barbarossa. The USSR had to replace the vast majority of its pre-war equipment while simultaneously evacuating its industry.
>The MG-42 was inefficient and ate too much ammunition, meanwhile troops were primarily using carbines rather than automatic weapons. The USSR meanwhile primarily used automatic PPSh and later PPS Submachineguns supplemented by rifles and both heavy and light MGs.
You're comparing apples to oranges. The MG-42 was a squad-level support weapon; the PPSh-41 was an individual infantry weapon. Also, the Soviets primarily used the Mosin-Nagant, not the PPSh.
>I am not ignoring
But you are, haha. If you want to compare total military output, you can't cherry-pick tank production, while ignoring motorized, ammunition, navy, etc. You have to look at everything Germany produced and everything the Soviets produced.
>the USSR did not use or need half-tracks nearly as much as you imagine
The point is that the you have to count half-tracks if you're going to compare total military production. The Soviets didn't produce half-tracks, but it absolutely used the ones they received from Lend-Lease.
>the Germans who used horses more than the USSR did
Factually not true in absolute terms. However, the Soviet reliance on horses decreased as Lend-Lease grew larger and larger.
>No, it boosted existing Soviet military production because the USSR specifically built factories with such a dual-purpose in mind and specifically spent the pre-war period rapidly building up stockpiles.
It was never sufficient to replace the losses from 1941. Most of those stockpiles were destroyed. The Soviets survived in 1941 because of their manpower, landmass and climate, an improvised industrial evacuation to the Urals, and a nascent Lend-Lease (moreso British Lend-Lease, rather than American).
>That is not the argument, the argument is that this fuel was critical to the USSR's fight against Germany, and is a lie because mildly better performance at altitude does not change a war, one man is not an army, nor is one plane or even a hundred planes. Furthermore you ignore that The Eastern front was primarily fought at low-medium altitudes, high octane fuel is important for high-altitude performance, having minimal influence otherwise.
Dude, how are you managing to be incorrect about literally EVERYTHING??? High-octane fuel's primary benefit is enabling higher boost pressures, which increases power at all altitudes where the supercharger can provide boost. This includes combat zones like sea level and low altitudes.
>The USSR HAD a solution for high-altitude performance in the MiG-3, they specifically stopped production because it was not necessary.
No, they stopped production because of a critical engine shortage.
>See pic rel
Highly misleading. Comparing total tonnage, pretty much all of which was cheap low-octane trash, to the decisive qualitative edge of high-octane is retarded. Besides, why are you focusing on aggregate production and not what the VVS actually consumed? The 58% and 37% figures are better measures of critical military capability and what the VVS actually used. Soviet low-grade fuel was often blended with Lend-Lease's high-grade, and the US supplied tetraethyl lead to facilitate this process.
>23% of TNT was provided by Lend Lease. 37% of Tuolene as separately provided, which allowed for SOVIET FACTORIES TO MAKE TNT.
This doesn't refute what I said. The 50% number comes from finished TNT plus imported toluene.
>HAD STOCKPILES
Which were insufficient.
>And they supplemented with other materials
Yes, inferior materials were used as substitutes because they had a shortage, correct. Lend-Lease provided the qualitative edge. You are literally making my argument for me.
>the point is that aluminum is 'critical' yet most military and civilian production didn't use aluminum including aircraft
It absolutely was critical, haha. The engines required aluminum alloys.
>No they did not, because the majority of Soviet aircraft weren't made of aluminum.
This only applies to the airframe, and this was only the case because of the shortage. What do you think the engines were made out of? Wood? lol.
>The nutritional intake of a few million cans of spam is fucking zilch compared to a hundred million loaves of bread
Lolwhat? Bread is low in fat, micronutrients, and certain amino acids depending on the type of flour used. You think the Red Army could've survived on just bread, you silly boy? No, they obviously needed the fats, animal protein, and sugars that Lend-Lease food aid supplied alongside domestic production.
>diary products
Dairy production dropped in half between 1940 and 1942.
>Broad, meaningless statement, and in the context of your LL food aid (again arriving mostly after the worst of things passed in 1944) its a drop in the bucket
Repeating yourself. No, it was definitely not a "drop in the bucket" for the Red Army soldier's diet. The strategic timing of the food aid, 1942 and 1943, was indeed one of its most important features. It helped keep the Red Army fed after major losses in the USSR's agricultural heartland, as well as droughts in the Volga, the North Caucasus, and Siberia.
>not decisive or critical
It absolutely was critical, haha.
>You're just straight up making shit up at this point.
???
>Soviet truck production:
<68,391 units in 1941
<23,591 units in 1942
<20,049 units in 1943
<20,940 units in 1944
<24,788 units in 1945
Soviets gutted truck production to focus on AFV and tanks, and relied on Lend-Lease to fill in the gap.
>Germany and all of combined Europe that it controlled, including captured Soviet production
No, Germany alone had the USSR beat economically and industrially. The German-occupied territories were an additional economic resource on top of that.
>Germany's economy was already mobilized by 1943, before said speech, are you nuts? 1944 was the peak of it yes, but that's because they were ramping up.
The point is that Germany did not gut its civilian production as early and as drastically as the Soviets did. 1944 was the peak of German mobilization towards total war, but even then it wasn't comparable to what the Soviets did much earlier.
>Not an argument
The argument is it's not a reliable source.
>nor true
It absolutely is true, lol. There was pressure on what Zhukov could and could not write. Soviet censors basically forged parts of the memoirs themselves, resulting in omissions and fabrications. It is not a reliable source.
>The memoirs or Zhukov are very much critical of the Soviet military in the war, such as, but not limited to issues in communication during the Battle of Moscow.
Critical in a way that's politically acceptable. No different from how American military or CIA memoirs are critical in their own sanitized way. For example, Zhukov's criticism of the Great Purge's effect on military leadership was entirely deleted by Soviet censors.
>1) This is a misquote of something attributed to Zhukov, supposedly in a KGB report. This was first seen in 1994 in Journal of Slavic Military Studies by a notorious anti-Soviet writer Sokolov, whose article is riddled with poor citations and outright misinformation, and was later replicated by Albert Weeks in his 2004 book
>2) the quote itself is questionable in nature as the document it supposedly comes from is basically hearsay, as is the quote itself.
Meh. Hearsay in this case is more reliable than some state-curated memoir; this isn't a court of law where hearsay is inadmissable. I don't rely on that Zhukov quote to prove my point. I just used it to push back on your uncritical swallowing of Soviet propaganda. Regardless of its accuracy, it corroborates the facts and contemporary accounts of others.

>>827167 (me)
>Third Battle of Kharkov (25k German casualties versus 250k Soviet casualties).
My bad, this is for the Fourth Battle of Kharkov.
Casualties for the Third Battle of Kharkov was 11k for Germany and 90k for the USSR. My broader point remains true.

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>>827167
>he aid in 1942, while not peak levels, was still critical. Operation Uranus relied on Lend-Lease, and its success was exacerbated by the fact several German mechanized divisions were diverted to Western Europe. Regardless, contrary to most perceptions, the Soviets were not "winning" in 1943. At best, 1943 was a bloody stalemate with the Soviets taking abysmally high casualties. Lend-Lease absolutely gave the Soviets enough of edge to just barely halt Germany's onslaught, and then eventually crush them when the aid came in full force by late 1943 and early 1944. In the first quarter of 1943, Allied food supplies supplied 17% of the total calories consumed by the Red Army. To claim this played a negligible role in holding the Germans back is disingenuous. A lot of the Red Army's operations from 1943 onwards, including Kursk and later Soviet offensives, were heavily reliant on Lend-Lease and even with them the Soviets took at least 3-4 times the losses the Germans did. Take Kursk for example, which is often cited as a Soviet "victory." The causality ratio reached as high as 1 to 12 (1 to 4 on average) in favor of Germany, which is almost unheard of. The Red Army performed so poorly that they would spend the entire Cold War covering up their abysmal performance by inflating German casualties and deflating their own. Consider the myth of Prokhorovka, which Soviet propaganda aggrandized as one of the largest tank battles in military history that resulted in heavy German losses. In reality, the Soviets lost over 200 tanks while the Germans lost around five. This is why I'm deeply skeptical of Soviet sources. These fuckers just habitually and brazenly lie about everything. Keep in mind, this terrible Soviet performance was against 60 percent of the Heer and less than 50 percent of the Luftwaffe. To claim that the Western Front played no role in bailing the Soviets out warrants deep skepticism. Really, the Germans could've potentially won the Battle of Kursk had Hitler not cancelled Operation Citadel because of the Allied invasion of Sicily, which required diverting additional manpower to the OKW fronts. The Red Army wasn't able to fight on after the losses of Stalingrad and Manstein's Masterstroke during the Third Battle of Kharkov (25k German casualties versus 250k Soviet casualties). The large influx of Lend-Lease aid in 1943 kept the USSR in the fight by allowing them to fight Kursk, and then launch a bunch of largely stalemated, attritional offensives with major losses in late 1943. Operation Bagration in 1944 is when the Soviets actually started "winning" the war, and by this point Lend-Lease was at its peak.

I wasn't going to address this because it's so blatantly false as to be laughable, but then I said fuck it, lets ball. Between your sourceless infograph texts and a claim this blatantly false, its obvious that you're arguing in bad faith. Your entire rant is literal Wehraboo apologia and isn't even worth addressing because even German data disagrees as does Western historiography which is notoriously anti-Soviet.
>At best, 1943 was a bloody stalemate with the Soviets taking abysmally high casualtie
<Source: infographs you took from a Medium article paraphrasing Sean McMeekin's faggot revisionism
Fucking laughable. Lend-Lease accounted for only about 5% of Soviet Gross National Product (GNP) in 1942 according to Mark Harrison, and he's far from a pro-Soviet. I already posted Lend-Lease truck numbers in detail which demonstrate that they in no way or form had significance in 1943.
>The Soviets knew the Japanese were never going to honor the Tripartite Pact and attack via Richard Storer
<Richard Storer
Wut. Also LOL no, they did not know this because the Japanese kept a permanent and massive military presence in Manchuria and had spent years attacking the Soviet and Mongolian borders and getting their asses kicked until Khalkin Gol wherein Japanese losses were so decisive that the military refocused on IJN operations in the South-East Pacific, such as acquiring IndoChina with the blessing of Vichy France and then attacking the USA when it began embargoing them for infringing on British and Dutch colonies. Furthermore Soviet presence in the East also forced Japan to maintain and spend resources on the millions of men sitting in Manchuria, men that could have fought the USA at any point in the war.
>allowed some divisions to be freed up and used in the Battle of Moscow.
According to the archives only 10% of Soviet forces at Moscow were made up of forces from Siberia, a fraction of the Soviet East contingent which was 1-1.6 million men through the entire war, 3,200 tanks, over 4,000 aircraft, and 46,000 motor vehicles. Literally 1/5 of German forces.
>peaceful
LOL doesn't change the fact that these were men, tanks, aircraft, rifles, ammunition and food that were kept out of the fight.

>comparable. The UK and US forces in the Pacific Theater were largely naval and air;

Japanese forces captured and denied enormous swathes of resource-rich colonies and tied up significant military forces that could otherwise be used to hunt U-Boats, protect convoys and free up guns, fuel and ammunition for fighting the Germans. Fuck off.

>Loss Ratios

  • For the defensive phase (Citadel), the Red Army suffered 177,874 casualties. The German Wehrmacht suffered 54,182 casualties. This is a ratio of roughly 3.2 to 1, not 12 to 1.
  • When factoring in the entire 50-day campaign—including the Soviet counter-offensives that permanently broke the Wehrmacht's back—military historian Chris Bellamy calculated the overall ratio at roughly 1.5 to 1.

A 3-to-1 loss ratio are normal for defenses that use counter-attacks, particularly against a concentrated armor spearhead. Labeling this a "poor performance" ignores the basic operational realities of breaking a massed armored assault. (Germany and the Second World War, Volume VIII by Karl-Heinz Frieser)
>The Soviets lost over 200 tanks while the Germans lost around five
General Rotmistrov’s 5th Guards Tank Army suffered a tactical disaster, losing roughly 350 tanks on July 12 due to a botched charge into an unexpected anti-tank ditch.
The II SS Panzer Corps recorded only a handful of total write-offs (Totalschaden) on that exact afternoon, their operational strength records roughly 60 to 80 tanks severely damaged, knocked out, or disabled during the fighting. Soviet and German casualty counting differed in methodology. A t-34 if it can’t run or shoot will be considered “loss” in Soviet loss counts (which also means tanks that got stuck will count too) so you can see a tank counted as a loss to be fighting to the end of the war. While the Germans only put a tank in the list of casualties if it’s completely destroyed. Thus comparing loss statistics without this nuance makes it appear that the Soviets lost tanks to the Germans 8:1 or more, when that is not the case. This is true of ALL German statistics, the Krauts only counted professional soldiers as casualties, so most volkssturm didn't count nor did civilians, meanwhile the Soviets took Partisan casualties into account so of course in a war where SS units were wandering around behind the lines burning down random villages with the Hostage Order those "casualties" start to add up. https://www.tankarchives.com/2017/04/on-german-tank-losses.html

>Invasion of Sicily

Originates from Erich von Manstein's memoir Lost Victories, which is another German General trying to pretend that they did no wrong. The reality is the War Diary of the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht), reveals that by July 12 (before Hitler's conference on July 13), the German offensive in the North under Field Marshal Günther von Kluge had totally halted. On the same day the Red Army launched Operation Kutuzov against the German rear at the Orel salient. Von Kluge explicitly informed Hitler that he could not continue Citadel because he had to divert his forces defensively to prevent his own armies from being encircled by the Soviets, and this happened before Sicily was even a consideration. Furthermore only one major division (the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte) was actually transferred to the West AFTER the battle, and without their heavy armor, leaving it on the Eastern front. If anything Kursk kept the invasion of Sicily and Italy from being even more bloody than it was.
>The Red Army took 250,000 casualties versus 25,000 German casualties and couldn't fight on.
Literal lies. The entire Red Army contingent at the Third Battle of Kharkov was 200K men, were they necromancers? The origin of that number of total men was estimates of the contingent by Fremde Heere Ost, it was incorrect. Krivosheev’s data pulled directly from the Central Archives of the Russian Ministry of Defense (TsAMO) gives the exact numbers for the Kharkov Defensive Operation losses (March 4 – March 25, 1943):
  • Irrecoverable Losses (Killed, Missing, Captured): 45,219 men.
  • Sanitary Losses (Wounded, Sick): 41,250 men.
  • Total Soviet Casualties: 86,469 personnel.

Even if you round up that's 90K. Furthermore you utterly omit the context, wherein the Soviet forces had pushed the Germans from Stalingrad all the way to this point and overextended their supply lines. Having taken a bad loss, the Soviet forces stopped and reconsolidated their forces, building up fortifications to fend off the German counter predicted that culminated at Kursk.
>Only 60%
The absolute highest-quality, most heavily equipped mechanized units of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS were concentrated on the Eastern Front and in July 1943, nearly 75% of all operational German panzers and the vast majority of their elite division components were committed to the East. The forces in the West were largely static, under-strength infantry divisions or rebuilding formations. Germany deployed 60 divisions on the Western front, vs 200 against the USSR. For context German intelligence estimated the Red Army could field around 200 divisions. Through the mobilization of the interior reserves (raised from Central Russia, the Urals, and the Volga), the Soviets created or reconstituted over 800 division-equivalent units in 1941 alone. The only reason the Germans got to Moscow at all was because Soviet forces were spread across the country at the time of invasion and it takes time to move millions of men and activate reserves, it's why Nuclear bombs are a problem, not because it will destroy an entire country but because it can behead all communication and command structure, leaving military and civilian forces disorganized and vulnerable.
In 1941 Axis forces (German and its allies) amounted to 3.8 million personnel (with around 3.2 million being German Wehrmacht troops) organized into 152 divisions, backed by roughly 3,300–3,600 tanks. They faced 2.6 million Soviet troops on the frontline with a mostly successful first strike, yet the Germans lost 25% of their forces by the time they reached Moscow and by October 1941, German frontline infantry divisions were operating at only 50-60% strength and lost a large number of experienced officers and troops. For perspective, on October 1, 1941, People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs Vyacheslav Molotov, British Minister of Supply Lord Beaverbrook, and US Special Envoy Averell Harriman signed the First Moscow Protocol, initiating the expansion of the lend-lease program to the Soviets. Meaning that prior to Lend-Lease even being sent out (let alone arriving and being deployed) the USSR had blunted the German advance significantly, while also having massive reserves.
The German 45th Infantry Division suffered more casualties in the first week at Brest than it did during the entire campaign in France. According to the German 45th Division's after-action reports, the fighting at Brest accounted for over 5% of all German fatalities across the entire Eastern Front during the first week of Operation Barbarossa. There was no Lend Lease there. 75-80% of The Heer was kept on the Eastern Front and 75-80% of German casualties occurred there.

The total number of troops through the war for the USSR was 34,476,700 and Germany’s was 21,107,000. Of these, the “irrevocable losses” (the number of soldiers who were killed in military action, went MIA, became POWs and died of non-combat causes) was 11,285,057 for the USSR, 6,231,700 for Germany, 6,923,700 for Germany and its occupied territories, and 8,649,500 for all the Axis forces on the Eastern Front. Thus, the total ratio of Soviet to Nazi military losses was 1.3:1. The majority of Soviet military KIA are primarily those POWs tortured to death in the Camps, which further skews the data. (G. I. Krivosheev in Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses). During the Second Front, the US and UK lost 2.3 million soldiers over 338 days, during which time the USSR only lost 1.8 million.


>offer your own conjecture that Germany "would have lost from the outset.

This isn't conjecture, it's a historic fact. The German assault stalled at Moscow because they literally pushed as rapidly and as hard as they could, regardless of losses and not only lacked the supplies to keep up the forward momentum but lacked the manpower to take the losses they suffered. The USSR at that time had a permanent military contingent in the East and reserves in Siberia that they pulled forward to Moscow.

Germany entered the USSR with severe shortages in rubber, oil, and rare alloys, it was part of the reason they invaded in 1941 rather than 1943, before they had completed the Wehrmacht's modernization (hence why the Kriegsmarine lacked capital ships in the numbers needed to properly challenge the British surface fleet and allow for Operation SeeLowe to be realistic. They had virtually no winterized lubricants, antifreeze, or cold-weather gear because their logistical planning completely assumed the campaign would conclude before autumn and they only had supplies for a Summer campaign. At one point it took the 7th Panzer Division two days to advance 90 kilometres purely because they couldn't get through the muck with the narrow-tracked tanks they operated, as they got stuck in the mud and snow. I also point out that 80% of The Heer used horses for transport; the Ostheer invaded the Soviet Union with a total of 625,000 horses of which half died before 1942.

Environmental factors can be prepared for, but Germany lacked the economic cohesion to do so even in 1941 when it began full militarization. The Russian Winter is one of the "Three Alibis" along with "Hitler didn't listen to me!" and "the Soviets just had vast numbers but no skill" common in the so-called "exculpatory memoirs" of German commanders written after the war to excuse their failure such as Tippelskitch and Halder. It is more appropriate to say that the Ostheer was in no condition to enter Moscow at all by the winter of 1941, and faced savage urban warfare that probably would have been worse than Stalingrad was in real life. There was certainly no possibility of forcing Stalin to negotiate, certainly not when Hitler's vision of victory was the annexation and genocide of all Russia West of the Urals. Even if the Ostheer had magically taken Moscow, it can't be said that that would have led to a Soviet collapse: most of the capital's functions had already been relocated to Kuybyshev (Samara) further East, and it was planned to be destroyed like when Napoleon came. Leningrad would still be besieged and The Heer's struggles in Crimea despite overwhelming naval and air superiority at the time wouldn't change if Moscow had fallen.
The Germans never came close to Moscow and never went past Leningrad's surrounding areas despite Finnish help. Stalingrad was the only major advance they had (out of pure desperation for oil located at Baku which they failed to reach), and this is in spite of huge numbers of resources and manpower being pulled in from all of Europe and from captured Soviet territories being thrown into the fray.

TL;DR: The Germans definitively lost the moment they failed to take Moscow and frankly they failed to take Moscow because they lacked the resources to reach it and take it before Barbarossa began (and this is with over a year of preparation - Operation Otto was drafted by Halder in 1940) - and an extra month delay from May to June). Furthermore even taking Moscow would not have meant victory, as even if that had happened, they again lacked the resources and manpower to hold it.

TL;DR: Fuck off Wehracuck.

>>827167
LMAO
https://archive.is/euWr6
>qualitative nature
LOL, LMAO even. The Locomotives sent were older than the USSR, being basically decommissioned garbage the USA had in storage like the E7s. The tanks were the same thing being mostly garbage. From Stephen Zaloga's "Red Army Handbook": "One of the less popular lend-lease designs provided to the USSR was the M3 Lee medium tank, the ancestor of the better and more successful M4 Sherman. Its archaic design and turreted 37mm gun and its thin armor led to its caustic Russian nickname, which translates as "a coffin for seven brothers". The Matilda was beyond useless as were all British and US tanks except for the M4s and those were in so few number that it was laughable. The Spitfires and Hurricanes were outdated models that the Red Airforce refused to fly in combat after a few attempts because they were inferior to German planes of 1941 and were predictable to the Luftwaffe. The Aircobra was a happy accident and was neither the best performing aircraft on the Soviet front nor the most common, nor did it arrive until later. It was only sent because the USAF rejected it and chucked it to the USSR where it's poor high-altitude performance turned out to not be an issue.
Secondly again, quality does not matter in war, quantity does and actual NEED.
>Even if German tanks were superior on paper, that says nothing about whether the USSR neede
It was an example you cretin. The point is that your qualitative bullshit is nonsense because A) The quality was questionable and B) didn't change the outcome of the war.
>bobody said the aid was supposed to feed "the whole country."
It is implicit. I already pointed out how meat and especially the sort provided by Lend Lease did not make up a large portion of Soviet rations, soldier or otherwise and that compared to other food-stuffs Lend-Lease food isn't even a blip. Therefore your argument about nutrition is meaningless twice over. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13518046.2025.2585687
>Dairy production dropped in half
1) Source needed. 2) And? As I pointed out with Wheat Production this was still larger than the combined food deliveries from Lend Lease. It doesn't matter how many more calories meat may have when it's not even 1% of food consumed in the USSR in that time-period.
>strategic timing of the food aid
LOL, LMAO even. The majority of losses for food supplies came in 1941 when the USSR lost a massive part of its agricultural sphere to occupation, so you're dead wrong.
>Bread is low in (X nutrients)
No shit you speed-reading FAGGOT that's also not what I claimed, but you wouldn't be a lend-lease cuck if you weren't shifting goal-posts and arguing with strawmen. A can of spam doesn't compare to a hundred loaves of bread is the point, and no matter how you slice it that's the facts of it. Pure fat contains 9 calories per gram, Wheat carbohydrates contain 4 calories per gram, however it is much easier to make a loaf of bread than it is to get meat.
>Allied food supplies supplied 17% of the total calories consumed by the Red Army
The only source I've seen for this is the National WWII Museum, based on post-war economic calculations that are basically guessing about who consumed how much.
It is a questionable statistic at best. A better one is the raw tonnage data of meat production in the USSR compared to Lend-Lease, comparing Soviet Central Archives (TsAMO) and Lend-Lease shipping records;
Soviet Domestic Meat Production 21,900,000 tons 94.5%
U.S. Lend-Lease Meat Shipments 786,000 tons3.4%
Mongolian Allied Meat Deliveries 500,000 tons 2.1%
Over 80% of that 786,000 tons of American meat arrived after the summer of 1943.
You also ignore how rations are distributed at all. Internal record-keeping of the Main Procurement and Supply Directorate of the Red Army (Glavnoye Upravleniye Prodovolstvennogo Snabzheniya - GUPS), preserved within the Central Archives of the Russian Ministry of Defence (TsAMO) records demonstrate that daily operational distribution rations were handled under a strict two-tier prioritization system:
  • Active Combat Front (Peredovaya Line): Under NKO Order No. 312 (issued by the People's Commissariat of Defense), frontline soldiers engaged in direct tactical combat were allocated 3,450 to 4,000 calories per day. The logs from the Voronezh, South-Western, and Central Fronts in 1943 show that Lend-Lease canned pork (Tushonka), lard (Shpik), and sugar were concentrated almost exclusively here. Because these high-calorie concentrates had negligible water weight, they were optimized for tactical movement over destroyed infrastructure.
  • Logistics and Garrison Rear (Тыл): For rear-area garrisons, backup reserves, and factory workers, the logs show that 99% of rations distributed were purely domestic. They consisted of rye bread, buckwheat groats (Kasha), cabbage, salted fish, and potatoes.

The internal ledger reports of General Andrei Khrulev (Chief of Logistical Services of the Red Army) specifically confirm that while a frontline assault division might have Tushonka accounting for up to 30% of its meat ration during a fast-moving, 10-day offensive operation, the macro distribution logs for the wider military show that over the course of the whole war, domestic grain and bulk food remained the baseline.
So again your claim about food being critical is false. It was a drop in the bucket and easily supplemented by air-dried and salted meats as had been done before 1944.

>Hearsay in this case is more reliable than some state-curated memoir

Unsubstantiated dismissal, not an argument.
>I don't rely on that Zhukov quote to prove my poin
>it corroborates the facts and contemporary accounts of oth
Irrelevant and No it does not. It does not corroborate either American or Soviet calculations of Lend Lease which at its peak placed it as 10% of the Soviet war-effort (the American report) and 4-5% total in the Soviet report, nor numerous quotations about the war by Western and Soviet and German military and political figures that corroborate the Soviet impact on the war. 10% is fucking laughable considering the percentage the USSR LOST during the war and kept fighting on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgNqUtHJKzo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_87E9aprwc Literally discusses Zhukov's quotes and which ones would be more or less accurate with actual primary sources, so your dismissal is garbage.
>The argument is it's not a reliabl
No that's an attack on a source, which is a fallacy when you have no proof to the contrary other than a very questionable claim with no actual primary citation.
>Critical in a way that's politically acceptable
Irrelevant non-argument.
<No different from how American military or CIA memoirs are critical in their own sanitiz
LMAO fuck off.
>Zhukov's criticism of the Great Purge's effect on military leadersh
Source and Citation needed. According to documents which have since been declassified, between 1934 and 1939, the Red Army's command lost over than 56,000 people, 10,000 of them arrested. Another 14,000 were dismissed for drunkenness and 'moral degradation'; the rest were dismissed for other reasons – illness, disability, etc. In the same period, 6,600 of the officers previously dismissed were reinstated after further proceedings. These repressions were not without reason Part of the reason the USSR lost initial fights was because several commanders did not destroy key large sections of the soviet infrastructure before retareating, giving the Nazis an easier path and available resources, these were not light mistake especially in war time. In 1937, Marshal Kliment Voroshilov said that, “the army had a total of 206,000 persons in the command structure”. The total size of the Red Army in 1937 was 1.5 million men at the time. Incomplete training of the commanders of the Red Army was a problem in the 30s, but not one caused by repression * but rather the rapid increase of men in the armed forces something noted by Zhukov and pointed out by the likes of Zemskov, J. Arch Getty and Rittersporn. In 1939 the army had grown to 3.2 million men, and by January 1941 – to 4.2 million. By the beginning of the war the command staff amounted to nearly 440,000 officers and staff but training of officers is longer than of ordinary soldiers and thus it was out of proportion. The country was preparing for war, the army was growing, undergoing rearmament, and the training of officers had not finished when the Germans struck. The purges were still more successful than not, as not only did German Diversants have difficulty conducting diversions and sabotage but also the Soviet officer education was increased; 29% of Soviet military personnel had a higher education before the repressions. After them, the number became 38%. By 1941, the number had risen to 52%. Note that for the decade before the repressions, the number had remained stagnant at around 20-30%. https://archive.is/7erPD

>Soviets gutted truck production to focus on AFV and tanks, and relied on Lend-Lease to fil

You're just outright lying at this point. I provided a more detailed breakdown of Soviet vehicle numbers with sources that prove that Lend-Lease trucks only became significant in number in 1944 and only the capacity that they supplemented the existing Soviet car-park, not replaced them. Fuck off.
>ignoring motorize
Already addressed multiple times, Fuck off faggot.
>the decisive qualitative edge of high-octane
Holy fucking copium.
>High-octane fuel's primary benefit is enabling higher boost pressures, which increases power at all altitudes
It is negligible at low and mid-altitudes because of the limits on speed at higher air densities at those lower altitudes I never said it had NO impact on performanc. Most soviet aircraft flew on 70-78-Octane fuel through most of the war, the rest of it arrived in 1944 after the Luftwaffe had been heavily depleted in both experienced pilots and aircraft. The primary users of High-Octane fuel were the lend-lease aircraft like the Aircobra because unlike Soviet engines which used alternative methods to boost engine power, they would literally break down using anything that was 74-Octane and below. This was not an issue for soviet aircraft. Furthermore the limited impact on Soviet aircraft capability is demonstrated in the post-war airfleets. Soviet post-war variants of WW-2 aircraft like the La-7 and Yak-9 demonstrated even higher flight characteristics than they did during the war, and yet during the war they and the preceding Yak-3 and La-5 compared well to the Bf-109's and Fw-190s in speed, turn-radius, climb-rate and so on.

On the eve of the war in 1940–1941, the absolute majority—over 95%—of this native Soviet aviation fuel was low-grade base stocks, primarily B-70 and B-74 (70 to 74 octane). Soviet military planning already knew that they could not produce enough higher-Octane gas, and so all aircraft were designed to operate on these low octane fuels. The highest native grade the USSR could reliably manufacture at the start of the war was B-78 (78 octane, chemically pushed to 87 octane).

But wait there's MORE. Section 35 of the Soviet Foreign Trade Archives (1941–1945) and the U.S. Lend-Lease Report to Congress reveal some fun things:
  • Total Soviet Oil and Fuel Production (1941–1945): ~18.4 million tons (total Soviet AvGas production was 5,539,000 tons)
  • Total Allied Lend-Lease Petroleum Products Received: ~1.655 million tons

the absolute maximum contribution of Allied fuel products to the total Soviet oil economy was only 9%.
Based on Soviet Purchasing Commission ledgers. In 1945, the fuel breakdown of Allied shipments shows that only about 20% to 22% of the tonnage consisted of finished high-octane aviation gasoline. The remaining percentage was distributed across
  1. Low/Mid-Grade Motor Gasoline (MT-80): To fuel the expanding fleet of Studebaker trucks.
  2. Kerosene and Diesel Fractions: For mechanized transport and armor.
  3. Chemical Components (Tetraethyl Lead - TEL & Toluol): Shipped in bulk so Soviet refineries could blend and stabilize their own low-octane fuels (which the USSR had been doing long before that). Less than 6% of the war's total petroleum aid arrived before the Summer of 1943 when Stalingrad concluded, and Kursk was a defensive operation and therefore not fuel-critical. 22% of 1.6 million tons of petroleum product is 352000 tons. That's a lot sure, but between 1942 and 1944, Baku managed to compress its yields to supply roughly 1,000,000 tons of B-78 base gasoline directly to the front lines over those three years combined—averaging roughly 330,000 tons per year. Including the production from 1945 and 1941 this comes to roughly 1.1 million tons of High(er) Octane fuel (78-87). Making High Octane Fuel deliveries roughly 40% of Soviet stocks, and primarily after 1943. The USSR made do without for several years, further proving my point that Lend-Lease deliveries shortened the war, but were not decisive to victory itself, nor Soviet survival of German invasion.


>doesn't refute
Yes it does, you're just shifting goal-posts. You said that 50% of TNT came from Lend Lease, this is incorrect. Tuolene still needs to be processed and then afterwards put into shells and torpedoes and bombs. That's not forgetting that bullet and small-caliber shells and AP-shells don't use any TNT and used cordite and RDX which has no relation to Tuolene. Furthermore I don't think you understand what 53% means in the context of Lend-Lease. 50% of Soviet explosives means that Americans supplied the Soviet Union with 1/3 of the explosives used in the war; 296,000 tons Lend Lease while the USSR produced 558,000 tons. Never mind that the USSR kept a massive amount of almost everything in reserve while the Germans did not. As an example at Kursk the Soviets had nearly 20K mortars and cannons at eve of battle with over 7.5K more in reserve. Meantime the Germans collectively had 10K of all artillery, and none in reserve. Take away American TNT and at worst you get the same 20K and simply a lack of reserves. Not great but certainly not critical to the outcome of the battle.

>walls of text
TLDR pls

>>827517
<Posts wall of text
>Waaaah wall of text!
I had to read your bullshit, so either read a book or fuck off

>Germany alone had the USSR beat economically and industrially
>Your interpretation is wrong
LOL, which is why it had to buy its oil, grain and other resources frantically in the pre-war and early-war years? The USSR sold them a million tons of grain in 1939 (not even their 5th largest import BTW), barely 0.3% of Soviet grain production and yet it was 5 months worth of food for the Germans, and they only traded with the USSR because they got embargoed and had been previously buying massive amounts of oil from Western countries like the USA, I posted some of the numbers.
Soviet production outproduced Germany in actual tangible results by almost 50% more in many industrial areas despite the fact that they were diverting plenty of resources to the reconstruction of their industrial base, much of which was uprooted and rebuilt during the German advance. Meanwhile the Germans most prominent diversion of industrial resources was the Atlantic Wall and Kreigsmarine.
"In the Soviet case 8 million tons of steel and 90 million tons of coal in 1943 were translated into 48,000 heavy artillery pieces and 24,000 tanks; Germany in the same year turned 30 million tons of steel and 340 million tons of coal into 17,000 tanks and 27,000 heavy guns." - Richard Overy, Why The Allies Won, Page 182, W. W. Norton & Company; Reprint edition (May 17, 1997)
>The MG-42 was a squad-level support weapon
<you're comparing apples to oranges
You're an idiot that missed the point or is deliberately shifting goalposts. I KNOW they're different classes of weaponry, I specified that when I point out one is an LMG and one is an SMG. The point is that the MG-42 and its predecessor was inefficient for its role because its rate of fire ate ammunition prohibitively, wore out the barrel quickly and was prone to jamming. It also failed to make up for the lack of automatic weaponry in the overall squad formation compared to the Soviets.

The Soviets understood that a precision built bolt action rifle with sights graduated to 1200 yards was an expensive option and one that required considerable time and resources to train huge numbers of troops on. The Mosin–Nagant of which they made 37,000,000 (not counting millions more in reserve from decades past and the Empire) was a good weapon but one that only a small percentage of their infantrymen could use to its maximum potential and as with all bolt guns was cursed with a slow rate of fire and a limited magazine capacity.

The soviets realized sooner than anyone else that 90% of infantry combat takes place at close range (>200 meters) where full power cartridges like their 7.62mm X 54R were over powered and the bolt action rifles that fired such heavy hitters had a low rate of fire. Soviet doctrine demanded that in meeting engagements their troops should be able to establish direct fire superiority quickly and then maneuver under the cover of that high volume of fire. This is why SVT-40 and other semi-automatic and automatic rifles were low-priority compared to SMGs in Soviet arms development.

Of course the Germans wanted the same capability but were too slow to implement the changes required in time.
The German Solution was to place light belt fed machine guns with high rates of fire such as the MG-34 with its ~900 round/min rate of fire with infantry platoons. Thus the German squad armed predominantly with bolt action rifles/carbines and a few SMGs was centered around its base of fire the MG34. Elite units would sometimes get more SMGs.

The Soviet Solution (s):
•On one level the Soviets adopted the same solution with the 7.62mm X 54R DP-28 drum fed light machine gun acting as the base of fire and the rest of the unit armed with bolt action rifles.
•Another Soviet solution was the creation of SMG battalions where the predominant weapon was the easy to manufacture PPSh-41 sub machine gun (1000 rounds/min) that was supported by DP-28 LMG and designated marksmen armed with either Mosin–Nagant bolt guns or SVT-40 semi automatic rifles. These units could send clouds of lead at German troops while in the attack at a dead run.

So a unit of ~20 Germans with 1 MG-34, 4 MP-40s and 15 bolt action rifles facing ~20 Soviets with 2 DP-28s, 6 SVT-40s/Mosin-Nagants and 12 PPSh-41s. The German unit is over matched with respect to the volume of fire it can deliver. And it take less time and effort to train a sub machine gunner than an effective rifleman.

Germany's economy was heavily propped up by the West, it did not initially achieve its production numbers on its own and was bordering on collapse without the parasitism of other countries, see Adam Tooze's works on German 'economic miracle' (pdf rel).
The company Standard Oil supplied millions of barrels of oil to the Nazis. In the Canary Islands in general, a filling station was set up for German submarines which provided them an ample base for the Battle of the Atlantic allowing them to easily extend their range South. In addition, this corporation owned a patent for tetraethyl, which was part of the fuel for aircraft.
https://newrepublic.com/article/104346/standard-oil-axis-ally

The International Telephone and Telegraph (ITT) established a supply of components and even entire ready-to-use units for the V-missiles which bombarded Britain. According to the contract, ITT conscientiously supplied Germany with special communication equipment, high-frequency equipment, selenium rectifiers, fuses to artillery shells (30,000 each month), radar equipment, telephone sets, switches and many, many others. The International Telephone and Telegraph Corporation maintained close ties with leaders of Nazi Germany from 1933 until the end of the war in 1945, according to Anthony Sampson, the author of a forthcoming book, “The Sovereign State of ITT,” to be published by Stein and Day. His charge is based on a study of U.S. government records in the National Archives that have been ignored until recently.
https://www.jta.org/1973/04/24/archive/disclose-itt-had-nazi-ties

IBM was yet another friend of the Nazis. IBM, supplied computing machines, spare parts for them and special paper for concentration camps. Apparently, as the contingent of death camps replenished, the Americans increased the supply of IBM, which helped the fascists quickly calculate the population of those yet to be exterminated. While individual members of departments making those instruments may not have been aware of their purpose (though it is doubtful anyone would admit to such an atrocity now), The higher ups of IBM most certainly were aware, considering how close they were to Hitler.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ibm-and-nazi-germany/

The Rockefeller enterprise eventually agreed to pay a minor fine “for having betrayed America” but was allowed to continue its profitable commerce with the enemies of the United States. A tentative investigation into IBM’s arguably treasonous activities in the land of the Nazi enemy was similarly aborted because the US needed IBM technology as much as the Nazis did. Edwin Black writes: “IBM was in some ways bigger than the war.” Both sides could not afford to proceed without the company’s all-important technology. “Hitler needed IBM. So did the Allies.” (Black, 333, and 348) Uncle Sam briefly wagged a finger at Standard Oil and IBM, but most owners and managers of corporations who did business with Hitler were never bothered at all. The connections of ITT’s Sosthenes Behn with Nazi Germany, for example, were a public secret in Washington, but he never experienced any difficulties as a result of them. Meanwhile, it would appear that the headquarters of the Western Allies were keen to go as easy as possible on the American-owned enterprises in Germany. According to German expert Hans G. Helms, Bernard Baruch, a high-level advisor to President Roosevelt, had given the order not to bomb certain factories in Germany, or to bomb them only lightly; it is hardly surprising that the branch plants of American corporations fell into this category. And indeed, while Cologne’s historical city centre was flattened in repeated bombing raids, the large Ford factory on the outskirts of the city enjoyed the reputation of being the safest place in town during air attacks, although some bombs did of course occasionally fall on its properties. (The Myth of the Good War: America in the Second World War, revised edition By Jacques R. Pauwels, Billstein et al, 98-100)

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers-willing-business-partners/303146/

http://nationalpost.com/g00/news/how-six-months-before-the-second-world-war-britain-gave-hitler-9-million-in-gold-that-belonged-to-another-country/wcm/3c1b3aa0-3bfe-4e57-83e9-8eefeec7cc52?i10c.referrer

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

https://fort-russ.com/2016/05/hitler-was-financed-by-federal-reserve/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/profits-ber-alles-american-corporations-and-hitler/4607

This didn't stop with Corporations either. The people and governments of many European countries supported the German war-effort, including volunteering to fight. The German author of the book “Results of the Second World War” (1953), K. Pfeffer wrote,
"Most volunteers from Western Europe went to the Eastern Front only because they saw this as a common task of the West … Volunteers from Western Europe, as a rule, were attached to SS units and units …"

The English historian A. Taylor wrote about the two “neutral” countries least of all dependent on Nazism, Switzerland and Sweden, that they “could bring Germany more benefits than if they were in the position of vanquished. Germany received iron ore from Sweden, precision instruments from Switzerland. Without this, she could not continue the war.” Almost every third fascist projectile was made of steel smelted from Swedish ore, and almost all the necessary tungsten came from Portugal.

Professor Richard Kaczmarek, director of the Institute of History of the Silesian University, author of the book “Poles in the Wehrmacht” claims that roughly half a million Poles served the German army during the war. In 1942 alone, the Poles made up 40-45% of the personnel of the 96th infantry division of the Wehrmacht, about 30% of the 57th division, about 30% of the 11th division (together with the Czechs), about 12% of the 110th division. The French also had their contribution with 220,000 volunteers serving in the 33rd SS division Charlemagne alone.

In 1940, Ford factories began mass production of trucks and other vehicles for the Nazis such as the Maultier. The Ford plants in Europe also worked, supplying the fascists with cars of various purposes, tires, aircraft engines, auto parts and much more. A Ford plant in 'neutral' Switzerland also repaired German trucks.
http://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_english/Motor_Vehicles/Germany/Ford/Ford_V_3000_S-SSM/ford_v_3000_s-ssm.html


The relationship of Ford and GM to the Nazi regime goes back to the 1920s and 1930s, when the American car companies competed against each other for access to the lucrative German market. Hitler was an admirer of American mass production techniques and an avid reader of the antisemitic tracts penned by Henry Ford. "I regard Henry Ford as my inspiration," Hitler told a Detroit News reporter two years before becoming the German chancellor in 1933, explaining why he kept a life-size portrait of the American automaker next to his desk.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm?noredirect=on


Primary examples of investments in the German economy.
"Ford" - $ 17.5 million.
Standard Oil of New Jersey (now Exxon Mobil Corporation) - $ 120 million.
General Motors - $ 35 million.
"ITT" - $ 30 million.

And that's ignoring the fact that the Red Army was more mechanized throughout the war than the Germans EVER were with 80% of transport being horse and cart. https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-wwii-german-army-was-80-horse-drawn-business-lessons-from-history/

Not getting lend-lease would mean perhaps fewer T-34s and more stressed supply lines, (so no different to 1941-43) But the difference is not enough to tip the war in favour of the Germans. The war might have lasted to Autumn 1945 or even Spring 1946, and the western allies might meet the Soviets at the Oder, or even the Vistula instead of the Elbe. But the German Reich was doomed.
“Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken 12 to 18 months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht.” (David M. Glantz & Jonathan House, ‘When Titans Clashed’, 1995, p. 285)
''Once, during a conversation with Mikoyan, we again raised the topic of strategic lend-lease supplies to the USSR. «Take, for example, the supply of
vehicles» - he said. «We received, as far as I remember, about 400 thousand first-class machines such as «Studebakers», «Fords», jeeps and amphibians. All our army was actually on wheels and what wheels! Well… - Mikoyan mused. Without Lend-Lease, we would probably war another year or two…»'' G. Kumanev, Next to Stalin: frank evidence, meetings, discussions, interviews, and documents. Moscow., 1999, p. 38.
Since you're copy-pasting Medium.com articles: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/lend-lease-saved-countless-lives-but-probably-didnt-win-the-eastern-front-77715c4ce0b9

Sending supplies is also a lot less meaningful than actually fighting on the front. The Lend Lease was not critical but ended the war early and the USSR earned every penny of it in blood, so fuck off.

PS
On the subject of Aviation fuel again: https://crithis.quora.com/Lend-lease-and-Soviet-fuel-in-World-War-2-Analysis
Also on the subject of metal; The USSR provided enormous amounts of Chrome and Manganese ore - 429,138 tons and 204,386 tons respectively - to the USA, the latter of which is heavily used in the making of armor alloys and fuses such as the Mk-21 fuse used in the USN and which was key in the Pacific Theater. The USA used 9 million tons of Manganese in all war-time uses, and had imported large amounts from the USSR since before the war.

Or lets talk about Boots. Yes Lend Lease boots were a massive percentage compared to Soviet PRODUCTION DURING THE WAR, however in 1940 alone the USSR produced over 69 thousand pairs of boots and another 44 thousand in 1941, and had millions more produced or available from years prior. And types of boots mattered as Lend-Lease boots did not last long compared to their Soviet counterparts. https://archive.is/phOzA

>>827169
>Casualties for the Third Battle of Kharkov was 11k for Germany
No, it was 11,500 and only for Paul Hausser’s II SS Panzer Corps between the 11th and 15th of March, during Urban battles. This comes from their medical logs. The total losses for the Third Battle were 40K for the Germans and 86K for the Soviet forces, this was only achieved because the Germans threw their reserves forward for a 7 to 1 numerical superiority in tanks, including the first mass operational use of the Tiger tank which had been sparingly used since Leningrad in the winter of 1942. Given that they were up against the logistically exhausted Soviet offensive that began months ago this is much less of a feat than you think.
>the Fourth Battle of Kharkov
These numbers are even more incorrect and nonsensical because you're just running a GPT script.
Soviet KIA for the Voronezh front were 48 339 and for the Steppe front were 23 272, 71K total. German losses are poorly documented but between Glantz's work and Valeriy Zamulin's analyses, the German losses are estimated at 30K with 1/3 being from Army Group Kempf. Soviet losses were 250K only if including injuries and the overall casualty percentages had Germans lose 28% of their forces compared to Soviet 22%.

>>827519
I posted in this thread once.

>>827521
If you're not the person I was replying to, then I apologize.

TL;DR:
  • Lend-Lease food was a drop in the bucket.
  • Lend-Lease High Octane Aviation Fuel was beneficial to the USSR but like most other items arrived mostly in the summer of 1943 or in 1944 after the decisive battles of Moscow and Stalingrad had been won and the Germans were on the retreat.
  • Lend-Lease trucks arrived also after these major battles and Soviet production was reduced for the sake of efficiency rather than an inability to produce things.
  • The claim about the Kursk and Kharkov battles including loss ratios is pure wehraboo fantasy and Soviet losses were much lower than claimed.
  • Soviet industry was producing more arms than Germany.
  • The USSR would have won against Germany with or without Lend-Lease, the latter only hastened the war's conclusion.
  • Germany recieved massive amounts of help and resources from both allies, conquests and Western sympathizers.
  • The claim that Zhukov said Lend-Lease was critical and the USSR would have lost without it, is questionable at best and contradicted both by actual statistics and other quotes that can actually be proven to belong to him
  • Germany's resource shortages prompted it to attack the USSR early and is the reason they were fated to lose.
  • Japan contributed a lot to diverting Allied resources from fighting Germany (both US and Soviet).

>>827522
Looks biased to me, but I think I won't get into it.

Only short pointers from me. Don't have time to address everything in these gish-galloping walls of text at length. I'm not surprised at all that you're tripling down on the quantitative argument, which is completely irrelevant to Lend-Lease's actual function. You basically have no argument against the qualitative nature of Lend-Lease and how that was essential to the Allied-victory on the Eastern Front, so you have to strawman me into talking about quantities.
>>827510
>Lend-Lease accounted for only about 5% of Soviet Gross National Product (GNP) in 1942 according to Mark Harrison
Not relevant.
>I already posted Lend-Lease truck numbers in detail which demonstrate that they in no way or form had significance in 1943.
The data you posted did not demonstrate that.
>Wut.
Soviet spy Richard Sorge gave intel that the Japanese were never going to attack the Soviets and honor the Tripartite Pact. They diverted critical divisions to the Battle of Moscow as a result.
>According to the archives only 10% of Soviet forces at Moscow were made up of forces from Siberia, a fraction of the Soviet East contingent which was 1-1.6 million men through the entire war, 3,200 tanks, over 4,000 aircraft, and 46,000 motor vehicles. Literally 1/5 of German forces.
10 percent is a lot. Nobody said it was the whole force though.
>LOL doesn't change the fact that these were men, tanks, aircraft, rifles, ammunition and food that were kept out of the fight.
Yes, but it still isn't comparable to Germany's OKW war fronts.
>Japanese forces captured and denied enormous swathes of resource-rich colonies and tied up significant military forces that could otherwise be used to hunt U-Boats, protect convoys and free up guns, fuel and ammunition for fighting the Germans. Fuck off.
Highly exaggerated. It mostly diverted US Navy power. The Allies always prioritized defeating Germany first.
> For the defensive phase (Citadel), the Red Army suffered 177,874 casualties. The German Wehrmacht suffered 54,182 casualties. This is a ratio of roughly 3.2 to 1, not 12 to 1.
I know, retard. Re-read the graph I sent you.
>A 3-to-1 loss ratio are normal for defenses that use counter-attacks, particularly against a concentrated armor spearhead.
The 1 to 12 ratio is for when the Soviets were attacking. That is absolutely a terrible performance. The rest of 1943 was more of the same; Soviets took 3 to 4 times more casualties and
>General Rotmistrov’s 5th Guards Tank Army suffered a tactical disaster, losing roughly 350 tanks on July 12 due to a botched charge into an unexpected anti-tank ditch.
You uncritically swallow Soviet propaganda, and then have they gall to call me a Wehraboo? OK. Literally none of that shit happened. We have the reconnaissance photos so we know this shit is fake. There is no disputing this. The Germans only lost five tanks.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16161262.2019.1606545
>Invasion of Sicily
Sicily absolutely was decisive in Germany's loss at Kursk. Von Kluge's report only solidified Hitler's decision to commit more troops in the Western Front; divisions that were training in France to reinforce were instead sent to Italy. It's really silly to claim the Germans' wouldn't have used troops and air power pinned in the West to reinforce the East.
>The entire Red Army contingent at the Third Battle of Kharkov was 200K men, were they necromancers?
I already clarified that I got the Third and Fourth Battles of Kharkov mixed up.
>Furthermore you utterly omit the context, wherein the Soviet forces had pushed the Germans from Stalingrad all the way to this point and overextended their supply lines. Having taken a bad loss, the Soviet forces stopped and reconsolidated their forces, building up fortifications to fend off the German counter predicted that culminated at Kursk.
Yes. The Red Army performed terribly in 1943. I already know this, and said this. The Soviets were basically exhausted after Stalingrad. Manstein's masterstroke did them in at the Third Battle of Kharkov. Soviet forces couldn't push out, so they coalesced at Kursk. Lend-Lease and the Western Front were very critical for the Soviet's performance at Kursk and the subsequent attritional offensives the Red Army launched afterwards.
>Only 60%
In late 1942, 30% of Germany's armored divisions were in the West. In early 1943, it was 22%. By late 1943, Hitler issued Directive 51 which prioritized armored divisions in the Western Front.
Air Force was even worse. During the Battle of Kursk, less than 50 percent of the Luftwaffe were deployed in the East.
>This isn't conjecture, it's a historic fact.
You say it isn't conjecture, and then offer conjecture.
>The German assault stalled at Moscow because they literally pushed as rapidly and as hard as they could
British Lend-Lease was critical in the Battle of Moscow too, btw.
>Germany lacked the economic cohesion to do so even in 1941 when it began full militarization
Not true at all, Germany had the larger economy and industrial capacity. Sick of having to articulate this fifty million ways, and German mobilization only peaked in 1944. This has been demonstrated to you countless times.
>>827511
>LOL, LMAO even.
No argument, and then you go off on some irrelevant tangent. OK.
>Secondly again, quality does not matter in war, quantity does and actual NEED.
Iraq had more tanks than the United States did during the 1991 Gulf War. By your silly logic, Iraq was the superior military power.
>It doesn't matter how many more calories meat may have when it's not even 1% of food consumed in the USSR in that time-period.
Proven false, time and time again. The Red Army consumed much more than just 1%.
>The majority of losses for food supplies came in 1941 when the USSR lost a massive part of its agricultural sphere to occupation, so you're dead wrong.
So the events of 1941 had no effect on 1942 and 1943? This is silly. The Soviets were dealing with famine-conditions in 1942 and 1943. The food aid came in at a critical juncture.
>No shit you speed-reading FAGGOT that's also not what I claimed, but you wouldn't be a lend-lease cuck if you weren't shifting goal-posts and arguing with strawmen. A can of spam doesn't compare to a hundred loaves of bread is the point, and no matter how you slice it that's the facts of it. Pure fat contains 9 calories per gram, Wheat carbohydrates contain 4 calories per gram, however it is much easier to make a loaf of bread than it is to get meat.
You're just repeating the same discredited argument using different words. Calories are just a unit of energy; fat and carbs are different macronutrients with different roles.
>The only source I've seen for this is the National WWII Museum, based on post-war economic calculations that are basically guessing about who consumed how much.
Even if that were true, it doesn't really discredit it. You're again citing total tonnage, and I've already explained how that's highly misleading. No point in doing it again.
>Unsubstantiated dismissal, not an argument.
>Irrelevant and No it does not.
It was a piece of state propaganda, and thus should be rejected. It's funny how critical you're of Manstein's memoirs but will gargle Brezhnev's propaganda-curated semen. The double-standard is palpable.
>You're just outright lying at this point.
I gave you the numbers. Not my fault you're in denial. Truck production collapsed from 68,000 in 1941 to 23,000 in 1942.
>Already addressed multiple times, Fuck off faggot.
>Holy fucking copium.
No argument detected.
>It is negligible at low and mid-altitudes
High-octane fuel's biggest payoff is exactly at low and medium altitude, dummy.
>Yes it does, you're just shifting goal-posts.
No, they're literally the same statistic just represented differently. The 50% number comes from finished TNT plus imported toluene.
>Never mind that the USSR kept a massive amount of almost everything in reserve while the Germans did not.
It was not enough. Stockpiles were basically depleted from 1941. I've already addressed this numerous times.
>>827520
>LOL, which is why it had to buy its oil, grain and other resources frantically in the pre-war and early-war years?
What exactly does this prove? Needing oil isn't a sign of a weaker industrial capacity. Germany supplied half of the Soviet's machine-tool imports. Now, that's better evidence of a stronger German industry, on top of all the other things I mentioned in this thread.
>Soviet production outproduced Germany in actual tangible results by almost 50%
I already proved this to be incorrect earlier in this thread. This is only true when you cherry-pick the type of equipment, i.e., usually tanks and AFV. Overall, the Germans produced more military equipment when you account for everything.
>I KNOW they're different classes of weaponry
Then the comparison is pointless. They served different functions. You're comparing apples to oranges. One was stronger for range and suppression but costly; the other was easier to mass-produce but weaker at long-range.
>And that's ignoring the fact that the Red Army was more mechanized throughout the war than the Germans EVER were with 80% of transport being horse and cart.
Actually, they were roughly on par until Lend-Lease trucks started coming in en masse in 1942.
>40K for the Germans
No evidence for this.
>overal casualty percentages had Germans lose 28% of their forces compared to Soviet 22%.
Highly misleading. The Red Army suffered over 200,000 more casualties than the Wehrmacht. The percentage is lower only because the Red Army was nearly six times larger.

>>822287
>inefficiently rush development that would've happened anyways at a more sustainable pace.
>at a more sustainable pace
Slower then?
Then in June 1941, your more 'efficient production' would not have reached the scale reached by the 'rushed' one of Stalin?
Then there would be no USSR by 1943.

This is what you morons do not understand about 'sustainable pace', not only when it comes to Stalin but to everything else. A sustainable pace is 'sustainable' and 'efficient' and 'genius' IF AND ONLY IF PEACE IS ASSUMED TO HOLD OVER THAT PERIOD.
THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE WAS TRUE IN THE THIRTIES AND FORTIES

>>827553
>gish-galloping walls of text
<posts a shit ton of text then complains about text
Piss off

> You basically have no argument against the qualitative natur

You have no proof of it. The tanks and aircraft were largely inconsequential. The trucks came when the USSR had already put German forces on the retreat multiple times, the fuel arrived only then as well. The food was inconsequential as I proved with actual statistics and primary sources from American and Soviet sides. It was not essential.
>you have to strawman me into talking about quantities.
As I have proven repeatedly A) The "quality" of the items was not consistent
B) Arrived late in the war and in not enough numbers to have a significant impact. You're the one that started whineing about "muh 50% aviation fuel" which is a QUANTATIVE value. MORON.
>Not relevant.
<Gross National PRODUCT is not relevant to values of imports relative to said product
Your contrarianism is impressive.
>Soviet spy Richard Sorge gave intel that the Japanese were never going to attack the Soviets
No. Sorge reported in September that the Japanese had reconsidered attacking the USSR and were focusing towards easier targets in South-East Asia. He however also added that depending on the situation at Moscow this could change, noting that the Japanese were reinforcing and increasing the military forces in Manchuria. The Tripartite Pact of September 1940 did not require Japan to join Germany in a war against the Soviet Union.
>They diverted critical divisions to the Battle of Moscow as a result.
<10% of the forces that fought at Moscow, a minor percentage of the 1.6 MILLION men still on the Japanese border that stayed there up to 1945. Only 6 Divisions arrived in October, of which only 4 took part in the Defense of Moscow and only 2 of those were from Siberia (i.e. the others were reserves taken from the Mid-East of the USSR). 14 Divisions were transferred to the Eastern front in 1941 and a total of 39 Divisions were moved over the entire war. However again, the USSR maintained PERMANENTLY 1.6 million fully armed men and 40 Divisions on the Manchurian and Mongolian border.
<Critical
Those divisions arrived after the German advance had been halted. Their primary impact was allowing for greater momentum to knock the Germans back harder. You also deliberately ignore the point, the USSR had the reserves to hold the equivalent to an entire German Army Group in permanent reserve and only use the Rifle Divisions to supplement their defense and counter-attack. The USSR kept a permanent contingent of 40 Divisions of 1.6 million men in the Far East.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000261287.pdf
>data you posted did not demonstrate
Yes it does, MORON. major Truck deliveries began in the Summer of 1943 yet by the beginning of 1944 there were only 94 thousand Lend-Lease trucks in service, compared to nearly 400,000 trucks already in Soviet service. Lend-Lease trucks only began to reach higher numbers in 1945 when Bagration had concluded and when the USSR deliberately ramped down production of its own trucks in 1944. Not before.
>reread the graph
I directly contested your claim about losses, read it yourself, backtracker.
>Sicily absolutely was decisive in Germany's loss at Kursk
>Von Kluge's report only solidified Hitler's decision to commit more troops in the Western Front; divisions that were training in France to reinforce were instead sent to Italy.
<Western Divisions continued to operate in the West
This is not what you claimed, and again does not change the numbers indicating that A) The majority of The Heer remained on the Eastern Front, and its most experienced troops too. B) The one major division that was actually diverted from the Eastern front left behind all its tanks and heavy armor on the Eastern Front and was sent AFTER the Germans failed at Kursk. You're goal-post shifting like a motherfucker.
>uncritically swallow Soviet propagand
I posted sources from different sides and directly disputed specific claims by specific people. You have posted nothing but citationless infographs to back yourself. Screeching "propaganda" is not an argument either.
<we have the reconnaissance photos taken by the Germans while they controlled the territory and therefore A) recoverable and repairable Soviet vehicles could not be retrieved by Soviet forces B) German vehicles WERE retrieved by German forces and withdrawn.
Furthermore I already covered the different methods of loss counting for the USSR and Germany that inflated Soviet losses and reduced German ones.
In conclusion Wheatley is deliberately giving the Germans benefit of the doubt while not doing so for the Soviets
https://dupuyinstitute.dreamhosters.com/2019/07/23/tank-losses-on-12-13-july-1943
https://dupuyinstitute.org/2019/07/24/and-elements-of-the-xxix-tank-corps/
https://www.tankarchives.com/2018/11/zamulin-on-losses.html
Christopher Lawrence andthe Dupuy Institute are by no means pro-soviet either. But hey, if you're this deadset on cherrypicking, here's Ben Wheatley talking about the Tiger's failure to deliver a qualitative edge: https://ueaeprints.uea.ac.uk/id/eprint/98147/1/Wheatley_2024_JSMS.pdf
If you apply the same loss calculations as done with the Soviets (taking into account long-term, short-term and permanent losses as casualties) the Germans lost 48 Tanks on July 12th. But wait there's more because German initial assessments changed too, an example Wheatley himself brings up is two LSSAH Pz IVs requiring Homeland Maintenance that were only classified as total losses on 14 July, and therefore did not get added to "losses for July 12"
>Highly exaggerated. It mostly diverted US Navy power.
Japan seized territories containing ~85% of world rubber exports, over half of the world's tin production, and the massive amount of Southeast Asian oil, denying these resources to the Allies, and particularly Britain, which struggled to maintain a presence in the area. It was enough to specifically concern the US forces for resources shortages: https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1940v02/d321
https://academic.oup.com/book/57608/chapter-abstract/469230562
21 US Army Divisions were in the Pacific through the war, 1/3 of deployed US Army forces unable to fight Germany, but wait there's more because this is only for the entire war period. In 1942 8–10 U.S. divisions were committed to the Pacific compared to roughly 10–12 in the European/Mediterranean area which is a near 1:1 ratio of force dispersal, especially as the US had not yet mobilized its troops. Britain in 1942 had to send The 18th Division, originally intended for the Middle East, to Singapore which was captured there. The 70th Division was diverted from Egypt to India, while the 2nd Division was sent from Britain to India, all of which weakened British forces, especially in Africa. in 1944 8 Indian Infantry Divisions and 3 African Divisions were committed to fighting the Japanese.
Pacific Operations also required much larger logistics and resources because of it being on islands, meaning enormous numbers of landing-craft and landing support (such as aircraft carriers) were denied to operations against the Germans. This was especially important because until mid 1943 the US Navy lacked the ASW quantity to properly counter U-Boats while also protecting the Pacific Fleet. https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/world-war-ii/1942/atlantic/overview.html
And you say Navy like its not important; Navy/Marine personnel constituted only 22% of U.S. forces involved against Germany for most of the war meaning 88% were dealing with Japan not to mention 57 Army air groups.
>The 1 to 12 ratio is for when the Soviets were attack
No. Fuck off.
>eally silly to claim the Germans' wouldn't have used troops and air power pinned in the West to reinforce the East.
Lovely reframing, except its the opposite and demonstrably so.
>I already know this, and said th
<performed terribl
You are being deliberately disingenuous in your framing and outright false with your numbers. Manstein's "masterstroke" was the Germans finally stopping an exhausted army after getting their shit-kicked in for months.
>Lend-Lease and the Western Front were very critical for the Soviet's performance at Kursk
Either Kursk was a total failure myth bla bla bla or it was won because Lend-Lease, man the contradictions of your agenda are catching up with you.
>30% of Germany's armored divisions were in the West in 1942
>22% in 1943
<late 1943, Hitler issued Directive 51 which prioritized armored divisions in the Western Front.
And as we see this only involved Divisions already IN the West staying there and a single Division being stripped of its heavy firepower and sent over while the majority of Divisions remained in the East. Did you even read what you wrote?
>less than 50 percent of the Luftwaffe were deployed in the East.
LMAO that doesn't mean much when the majority of actually active forces WERE on the Eastern front, and you're still ignoring the numbers of how many Luftwaffe planes and pilots met their demise on the Eastern front compared to the Western front being higher. Not to mention that this ignores that this only includes planes deployed on the Eastern front =/= forces fighting the USSR. Luftflotte 5 was stationed in Scandinavia and operated against Soviet and Western allied shipping and fleets. Luftflotte 3 was 50% grounded
And finally between May 1942–April 1943 70% of all Luftwaffe losses were on the Eastern front and this percentage roughly applies to the entire war as well. https://studylib.net/doc/28457873/the-eastern-front-1943%E2%80%931944-the-war-in-the-east-and-on-th…
https://media.defense.gov/2017/Apr/07/2001728431/-1/-1/0/B_0012_MURRAY_STRATEGY_FOR_DEFEAT.PDF

>No argument

You have not provided an argument and I disputed your qualitative bullshit several times.
>repeating the same discredited argume
I provided statistical data from actual sources, you provided no sources and inflate statistics.
>fat and carbs are different macronutrients with different roles
Shifting goalposts again. The majority of meat production and the associated macronutrients did not come from Lend-Lease, I provided the sources to that end, you have not.
>Soviets were dealing with famine-conditions
<in 1942 and 43
< food aid came in at a critical junctu
Ah yes, especially when Lend-Lease deliveries halted entirely in that period because the Allied Navies could not provide sufficient defense for convoys against German forces, in part because Japanese forces tied up potential fleet escorts. OH WAIT.
>it doesn't really discredit
It is a tertiary statement without actual statistical proof, and does not hold up against actual primary statistics.
> I've already explained how that's highly misleadi
You haven't explained shit, you're just dismissing it because of the magical "qualitative" nature you've made up in your head.
>a piece of state propagan
Not an argument, your argument is fallacious.
> critical you're of Manstein's mem
Manstein was a Nazi General and among the many well known to be authors of the Clean Wehrmacht myth and whose words directly contradict his own and others' reports during the war. Zhukov's reports during the war and the actual data about lend-lease are not contradicted by his memoir. Your false equivalency is blatant projection.
> gave you the numbe
No I gave you numbers. Your truck production numbers ignore existing truck stockpiles and the fact that truck production rose significantly right after, before Lend-Lease even delivered the first 22,000 trucks in Janurary of 1944. I posted that number at the start and with sources. Fuck off.
>No argument
You have none, yes.
>igh-octane fuel's biggest payoff is exactly at low and medium altitude
No, its biggest payoff is in better performance at higher altitudes because of the superior fuel quality assisted the turbo and superchargers in countering the thin air which leads to power reduction. At lower altitudes aerial drag means that a higher octane fuel makes a difference of perhaps a dozen km/h in speed which is meaningless when you cannot turn at full-speed anyway and most fighter aircraft are all flying around 590-650 km/h where 50km/h is rarely a big enough difference to matter. It mattered with the I-16 because the Bf-109F that it faced was heavily upgraded compared to the Me-109s of 1938, but that gap was closed by 1943 with the La-5 and Yak-7 and Yak-1 the latter 2 of which only lost out to the Bf-109 in HIGH ALTITUDE. Again, the majority of high-quality AvGas delivered by Lend-Lease arrived in 1944 and only started arriving in decent numbers in mid-1943. The La-5 and Yak-3 got a boost in performance from this but they were already breaking even with the Germans before this.
>literally the same statistic just represented differentl
No it isn't Tuolene doesn't convert 1:1 into TNT. That's like saying 1 million tons of crude oil can be converted to 1 million tons of gasoline. That's not how it works, especially since it takes a multi-stage nitration process to convert that Tuolene into TNT.
>Stockpiles were basically depleted from 1941
You have not addressed this or demonstrated any sources to that end.
>What exactly does this prove
It proves my point that German's economic might was not its own, which is my point. The numbers you show for production don't take into account that this is done unsustainably and could not be sustained without foreign imports. Soviet production numbers could maintain themselves without foreign imports, Lend Lease was merely a beneficial additive that boosted numbers rather critical.
>Germany supplied half of the Soviet's machine-tool imports
And? That was done before the war and was supplementary to existing Soviet machine-tooling which by 1941 had surpassed German production.
>better evidenc
No it is not, because as I demonstrated with Manganese your argument could be used to say that US economic might was lower than the USSR, which is untrue.
>proved this to be incorre
No you did not. You ignored the caveats and cherrypicked specific categories.
>the comparison is pointless
Only if you're a retard. It's not about the weapons but about the tactical usage and equipment.
>One was stronger for range and suppression but costly; the other was easier to mass-produce but weaker at long-range
Again you miss the fucking point that the German weapon was inefficient for its role and was a poor substitute for a lack of short-range automatic weaponry when the Soviet's had both LMGs and HMGs for that on top of both long-range rifles and short-range automatic fire.
>they were roughly on par until Lend-Lease trucks started coming in en mass
No they were not. The Soviet military in 1941 was about 55% horse-based and 60% in 1943. 20% is a massive difference. Furthermore these numbers are skewed because of the high numbers of horses used in cavalry units and the 1.6 million man army deployed permanently in the East. Not to mention that the Soviet army primarily used tractors for artillery towing during the early stages of the war, something that does not fall under automotive transport.
>No evidence
Its in the German 10 Day loss reports.
>ed Army suffered over 200,000 more casualti
You're counting all casualties including injured against only the dead for Germans
>the Red Army was nearly six times larger.
There were 900K forces against 300K forces, 600K vs 200K if discounting logistics forces, You're blatantly lying at this point.

>>827643
>German 10 Day loss reports.
Specifically BA-MA RH 2/1343 (Casualties of the German Army on the Eastern Front, 1943)
and BA-MA RH 20-11/ (War Diaries and Appendices of the 11th Army / Army Group South) cover the losses of that time period. The 11K number applies to Panzergrenadier-Division Großdeutschland during the urban-warfare stage.

>>827643
><we have the reconnaissance photos taken by the Germans while they controlled the territory and therefore A) recoverable and repairable Soviet vehicles could not be retrieved by Soviet forces B) German vehicles WERE retrieved by German forces and withdrawn.
>Furthermore I already covered the different methods of loss counting for the USSR and Germany that inflated Soviet losses and reduced German ones.
>In conclusion Wheatley is deliberately giving the Germans benefit of the doubt while not doing so for the Soviets
>https://dupuyinstitute.dreamhosters.com/2019/07/23/tank-losses-on-12-13-july-1943
>https://dupuyinstitute.org/2019/07/24/and-elements-of-the-xxix-tank-corps/
>https://www.tankarchives.com/2018/11/zamulin-on-losses.html
>Christopher Lawrence andthe Dupuy Institute are by no means pro-soviet either. But hey, if you're this deadset on cherrypicking, here's Ben Wheatley talking about the Tiger's failure to deliver a qualitative edge: https://ueaeprints.uea.ac.uk/id/eprint/98147/1/Wheatley_2024_JSMS.pdf
>If you apply the same loss calculations as done with the Soviets (taking into account long-term, short-term and permanent losses as casualties) the Germans lost 48 Tanks on July 12th. But wait there's more because German initial assessments changed too, an example Wheatley himself brings up is two LSSAH Pz IVs requiring Homeland Maintenance that were only classified as total losses on 14 July, and therefore did not get added to "losses for July 12"
Additionally the USSR never claimed 200-300 German tanks destroyed on the 12th of July. The 5th Guards Tank Army report of 17 July: claimed 298 German tanks destroyed, including 55 Tigers, during 12–16 July for the entire frontline at Prokhorovka, counting both totally destroyed and repairable German tank losses, not just the small portion where Rotmistrov's forces hit a tank ditch. The claim that Rotmistrov said 300-400 tanks were destroyed is hearsay extrapolated from this report.

aint nobody readin dat shit
look if da booj say stalin and hitler loved each other i just nod
no more thinking or reading needed

>>827643
><posts a shit ton of text then complains about text
>Piss off
I replied to your 3-post Great Wall Text of China with one or two sentences for each claim. You're clearly gishgalloping by repeating the same points that have already been addressed. Moreover, you are still arguing a strawman by focusing on quantities.
>You have no proof of it.
Plenty of proof has been provided. You are just in denial of it and would rather misdirect the conversation towards quantities.
>The tanks and aircraft were largely inconsequential.
Actually, British heavy tanks were critical in the Battle of Moscow; Lend-Lease tanks were even used in Uranus (although Lend-Lease motorized was by far the stronger deciding factor). Aluminum was also critical for plane production. You had to cope about the Soviets using wood (which only proves how badly they needed aluminum), neglecting that the engines required aluminum alloy. Indeed, without the Lend-Lease aluminum, Soviet aircraft production would be half of what it was.
>The trucks came when the USSR had already put German forces on the retreat multiple times, the fuel arrived only then as well.
False. The aid in 1942, while this isn't peak, it was still critical. Uranus relied on Lend-Lease's superior motorized.
>The food was inconsequential as I proved with actual statistics and primary sources from American and Soviet sides.
Also, false. You continue to ignore the timing of it, how much the Red Army actually consumed of it, and its nutritional value.
>The "quality" of the items was not consistent
Also false. The trucks, explosives, types of food, fuel, etc. were all generally better quality than what the Soviets domestically produced.
><Gross National PRODUCT is not relevant to values of imports relative to said product
>Your contrarianism is impressive.
GNP is a quantitative measurement, so yes, it is completely irrelevant to my argument about Lend-Lease's qualitative decisiveness.
>Sorge reported in September that the Japanese had reconsidered attacking the USSR and were focusing towards easier targets in South-East Asia. He however also added that depending on the situation at Moscow this could change, noting that the Japanese were reinforcing and increasing the military forces in Manchuria.
Yeah, that's the more detailed explanation. The point is still the same though: the Soviets knew they were safe in the Far-East if they focused on beating Germany in the West.
>Their primary impact was allowing for greater momentum to knock the Germans back harder.
So it was critical. The Winter Offensive is what ended Germany's hopes of capturing Moscow.
>You also deliberately ignore the point, the USSR had the reserves to hold the equivalent to an entire German Army Group in permanent reserve and only use the Rifle Divisions to supplement their defense and counter-attack. The USSR kept a permanent contingent of 40 Divisions of 1.6 million men in the Far East.
Nobody ignored that the Soviets had the numerical manpower advantage in 1941. The point is that the Soviets' Far-East is a poor comparison to Germany's OKW fronts. You have still not proven otherwise.
><Western Divisions continued to operate in the West
They were destined to reinforce Citadel, but Operation Husky redirected them to Italy.
>A) The majority of The Heer remained on the Eastern Front, and its most experienced troops too.
Majority in the East doesn't mean the OKW fronts weren't a major drain.
>B) The one major division that was actually diverted from the Eastern front left behind all its tanks and heavy armor on the Eastern Front and was sent AFTER the Germans failed at Kursk.
Misleading, again. The division from the II SS Panzer Corps was sent to Italy was just one example. Many other divisions were shifted from East to West later on after the battle. Sicily changed the entire course of the Eastern Front.
>I posted sources from different sides and directly disputed specific claims by specific people.
No serious historian takes the Soviet propaganda's inflated casualties seriously. The Soviet myth at Prokhorovka has been entirely discredited.
>Furthermore I already covered the different methods of loss counting for the USSR and Germany that inflated Soviet losses and reduced German ones.
Who cares about the methodology the Germans and Soviets used to count tank losses when we literally have the reconnaissance pictures from right after the battle? The Germans only lost about five tanks.
>In conclusion Wheatley is deliberately giving the Germans benefit of the doubt while not doing so for the Soviets
No, he isn't, haha.
>Allies in the Pacific Front
Still selective. The Germany‑first strategy explicitly gave Europe the larger share of US and UK Army divisions, air groups, and shipping tonnage. The drain of the OKW fronts for Germany is a terrible comparison.
> No. Fuck off.
So Dupuy Institute is only a valid source when you cite it? OK. Good to know you have no argument.
>Lovely reframing, except its the opposite and demonstrably so.
You have not demonstrated anything.
>You are being deliberately disingenuous in your framing and outright false with your numbers.
False. The Soviets' abysmally high casualties is substantiated. So much so that by 1943 they ran into severe manpower issues. The upping of Lend-Lease in 1943 was thus critical in sustaining the Red Army's mobility, and allowed the Soviets to focus exclusively on tank and air production, the latter of which was highly dependent on Allied alumnium imports. Even Glantz admits the Soviets' wouldn't have been able to launch its sustained, attritional offensives without the aid.
>Manstein's "masterstroke" was the Germans finally stopping an exhausted army after getting their shit-kicked in for months.
Meh. If anything, Manstein's masterstroke proves Stalingrad exhausted the Soviets more than it exhausted the Germans. It thus makes sense that the Soviets were only able to go on the offensive post-Kursk once Lend-Lease swelled in size in 1943. Casualties were simply too high and manpower was dwindling. But even with Lend-Lease fuelling the offensives in autumn 1943, the Soviet casualties and losses were still abysmally high.
>Either Kursk was a total failure myth
Strawman. Nobody said Kursk was a failure for the Soviets. They performed abysmally and Lend-Lease was critical, but they still ultimately won the battle because of Sicily.
>And as we see this only involved Divisions already IN the West staying there
Critical divisions in the West that could've been used in the East.
>LMAO that doesn't mean much when the majority of actually active forces WERE on the Eastern front
We're not talking exclusively about active forces.
>I disputed your qualitative bullshit several times.
You have not sufficiently addressed it. You mostly strawman by arguing quantities.
>The majority of meat production and the associated macronutrients did not come from Lend-Lease
17% of caloric intake in 1943? 50% of the fats consumed by the Red Army? Enough food feed a 12,000,000-man army half pound of food per day for the duration of the war? None of that is significant?
>especially when Lend-Lease deliveries halted entirely in that period because the Allied Navies could not provide sufficient defense for convoys against German forces, in part because Japanese forces tied up potential fleet escorts. OH WAIT.
Only the Arctic route was suspended. The Persian and Pacific routes continued. Also, the Japan angle is overstated. The immediate causes were the German naval threat in the North Atlantic/Arctic and the diversion of Allied escorts to the Mediterranean theater for operations like Torch and Husky.
>does not hold up against actual primary statistics
The statistics you cite do not conflict with anything I've presented.
>You haven't explained shit, you're just dismissing it because of the magical "qualitative" nature you've made up in your head.
Strawman.
>Not an argument, your argument is fallacious.
Are you thinking straight? How can the argument be fallacious if it's not an argument? Lmfao you're seething, brother.
>Manstein was a Nazi General and among the many well known to be authors of the Clean Wehrmacht myth and whose words directly contradict his own and others' reports during the war. Zhukov's reports during the war and the actual data about lend-lease are not contradicted by his memoir.
Autobiographies and memoirs in general aren't the best sources, as people are generally self-serving and will typically write to present themselves in the best possible light. However, Zhukov's memoirs were a product of Soviet censorship, pressure, and forgery. This isn't even up for dispute at this point, as we now have Zhukov's original manuscripts (which were still influenced by political pressure btw) which differs greatly from what was originally published.
https://moving-the-social.ub.rub.de/index.php/MTS/article/view/7491
>No I gave you numbers.
The numbers you cite do not undermine my argument.
>Your truck production numbers ignore existing truck stockpiles
By the way, much of those were licensed copies of old Ford trucks.
>truck production rose significantly right after
Demonstrably false.
Soviet truck production:
<68,391 units in 1941
<23,591 units in 1942
<20,049 units in 1943
<20,940 units in 1944
<24,788 units in 1945
>Lend-Lease even delivered the first 22,000 trucks in Janurary of 1944
Huh? British deliveries started as early as November 1941, while American deliveries began after January 1942.
>No, its biggest payoff is in better performance at higher altitudes because of the superior fuel quality assisted the turbo and superchargers in countering the thin air which leads to power reduction.
You remain mistaken. The benefit of high-octane fuel is it allows the engine to run more manifold pressure (boost) without detonating. If the engine is knock limited, high octane helps by allowing more boost, regardless of the altitude. At high altitude, the limiting factor is usually how much air the supercharger can send to the engine. If the supercharger is out of breath, then higher octane won't magically restore power. If it can still make boost, then high octane helps but that's true at low and medium altitude too. For most WW2 planes, the maximum boost is at low-to-medium altitudes, where knock was the limiting factor. At higher altitude, the compressor was often the limit.
>No it isn't Tuolene doesn't convert 1:1 into TNT. That's like saying 1 million tons of crude oil can be converted to 1 million tons of gasoline. That's not how it works, especially since it takes a multi-stage nitration process to convert that Tuolene into TNT.
None of this is relevant to the 50% figure. The 50% figure was the combined amount amount of finished TNT and Tuolene sent by Lend-Lease.
>You have not addressed this or demonstrated any sources to that end.
Meh. I've been writing to you while I'm at work, so this is just entertainment for me. Too lazy to spoonfeed you, but it's common knowledge that Barbarossa decimated stockpiles because of the Red Army's forward deployment.
>It proves my point that German's economic might was not its own, which is my point.
How does Germany's resource needs prove the USSR was economically and industrially superior? Germany was more technologically advanced, had a higher efficiency per worker, and a stronger in precision manufacturing, chemicals, and electrical sectors.
>Soviet production numbers could maintain themselves without foreign imports
Demonstrably false. I already talked about high-octane Avgas, trucks (including the GAZ-AA based on the American Ford Model AA), aluminum, etc. Imported copper was 3/4 of Soviet production; the Americans also sent 3 million tons of steel, as well.
>supplementary to existing Soviet machine-tooling which by 1941 had surpassed German production
Another false statement. Germany had more than double machine the tools: both the production of new machine tools and the total number of machines available.
>No it is not, because as I demonstrated with Manganese your argument could be used to say that US economic might was lower than the USSR, which is untrue.
Manganese is a raw resource; machine tools are a finished product in precision manufacturing. The comparison is not valid for measuring industrialization.
>You ignored the caveats and cherrypicked specific categories.
Projection.
>Again you miss the fucking point that the German weapon was inefficient for its role and was a poor substitute for a lack of short-range automatic weaponry when the Soviet's had both LMGs and HMGs for that on top of both long-range rifles and short-range automatic fire.
Meh, you're overstating things anyways. MG-34/42 were excellent suppression weapons. You're comparing a specialized Soviet SMG unit to a standard German squad. Typical Soviet squad was one DP LMG, a couple of PPSh, and mostly Mosins. Typical German squad was one MG-42, one or two MP-40s, and Kar98k. In a typical firefight, the MG-42 was a massive advantage over the DP-28. The real German weakness was late-war production and attrition. None of this matters regarding output capacity, as these are all decisions of production.
>No they were not. The Soviet military in 1941 was about 55% horse-based and 60% in 1943. 20% is a massive difference.
OK, thanks for the percentages. All I knew was that the Red Army was also primarily on horseback, and that appears to remain true although less than Germany. This kind of makes sense, given Germany's lack of domestic oil reserves (Romania wasn't enough).
>You're counting all casualties including injured against only the dead for Germans
No, total German casualties were 25k at the Fourth Battle of Kharkov.
>There were 900K forces against 300K forces, 600K vs 200K if discounting logistics forces, You're blatantly lying at this point.
Depends on the methodology. Most give a figure of 1,144,000 Soviet versus 200,000 German.
>>827656
>11th Army
Huh?? 11th Army was disbanded in 1942, way before the battle.
>>827659
>Additionally the USSR never claimed 200-300 German tanks destroyed on the 12th of July.
They absolutely did, lmao what?
>The claim that Rotmistrov said 300-400 tanks were destroyed is hearsay extrapolated from this report.
It's not hearsay. He wrote directly says this in his also state-curated memoirs.

wow these replies are so long, i didn't know leo tolstoy and david foster wallace were having a flamewar in here


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