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/ufo/ - Paranormal and Conspiracies

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Good book on Jesus’ historicity, analysing not just every argument on the historical Christ but also giving a holistic assessment on how Christianity likely came to be, with a vigorous reference section. If you don’t want to buy it on Amazon, it’s available at z-library (link not given to avoid piracy charges).

Inb4:
>Muh Adam Green
>Muh Bart Ehrman
>Muh consensus
>Muh Christophobia

Yadda yadda, I know who Adam Green is, about the Ehrman talking point, and how this subject can be touchy to both Christcuck and e-crusader secularised midwits here, so I’ll be blunt here:

  • Adam Green’s background doesn’t invalidate his broader points on Christianity, the Bible, and Jesus Christ’s existence

  • The “consensus” doesn’t mean much since it’s mostly made up of Christians and Christian-sympathisers who engage in confirmation bias and gatekeeping to discourage any critical opinion on the historical Christ theory. Given that Ehrman himself relies on this very unreliable consensus for his book on Jesus’ historicity

  • Not believing in Jesus’ existence as a historical figure isn’t anti-Christian as many non-mainstream Christian sects like the early Church-era marcionites and gnostics assert the notion of a mythical non-physical Christ. On the top of that, much of Judaism (and by extension Zionism) rests on the notion of the Old Testament as being 100% true and historically accurate text, whilst Islamic doctrine holds the existence of a historical Christ. So by negating the existence of a historical Christ, and by extension undermining the value of the Old Testament as a historical text, Christianity and Islam and Judaism are effectively undermined

With that out of the way, let me be clear that I’m not 100% confident in Christ’s non-existence, but nevertheless I’m not convinced on the existence of Christ as a historical figure for the following reasons:

  1. There’s no evidence for the existence of Christ dating back to when he was canonically alive. Every alleged proof for his existence as a historical figure date back to decades and even centuries after his death.

  2. There’s no mention of a Jesus Christ being crucified in any surviving Roman documents.

  3. There’s far and few in-between evidence attesting to Jesus’ existence beyond the gospels, which are themselves unreliable and of dubious historicity as pointed out by Russell Gmirkin and Robert M Price.

  4. Among the non-Christian sources, none of them are contemporary to the canonical Christ’s lifetime (i.e., the 1st century) despite Jewish concerns at the time being well-documented. And of the ones that exist, most either repeat earlier hearsays about Christ without actually investigating them (e.g., Tacitus and Pliny the younger), ambiguous and subject to heavy debates (e.g., Lucian and Suetonius) or outright forgeries whose veracity rests on Christian interpolation (e..g., Josephus’ passage). But the thing is, all of them either never tried to prove the hearsays in 1st century AD Judea, or were born after Christ’s canonical death (which for the record, was determined centuries after his death, with early Christians themselves disagreeing on when he was born and died), so they aren’t even contemporary sources at all, let alone independent ones, especially as by the time Tacitus and Josephus wrote about Christ he was already dead by then + the gospels were already spreading.

  5. There are no Roman records that mention Jesus. Not only all that, but, there are no Christian eye-witnesses of Jesus. All of the Gospels are anonymous and written by friends-of-friends, and none are written in the first person; also, Paul (who authored 13 of the 27 books of the NT) never met Jesus, except in a vision. They're also written in very competent Greek (the language of later converts), rather than in Hebrew (the language of the original converts, excepting Paul).

  6. Going back to the gospels, they are just fictional tales derived from the Old Testament authored by many people throughout history. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other manuscripts don’t necessarily prove the historicity of the gospels nor that there was just one author, at best it only proves that said tales were already in wide circulation, especially as there’s no evidence of a complete Bible contemporary to Christ’s lifetime. Unless you believe in the resurrection and the miracles and the existence of the biblical floods and the GIGANTIC kingdoms of Israel and that of King Solomon, then the gospels themselves become unreliable as proofs for Christ’s existence as a historical figure.

With that said, maybe there was a thought leader in some Jewish splinter group called “Jesus Christ” or something to that effect, but there’s no compelling evidence that the Jesus Christ that we are familiar with has ever existed at all.

Hopefully this thread won’t devolve into a flame war, I hope.

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>>1216
I sure did, I literally died for your sins by the way.

>>1217
Too bad none of your disciples ever saw you IRL, not even Paul.

>>1218
Paul is dead. He died in a car crash and was replaced by William

Most experts agree Jesus was real. Wikipedia said so. I'm Hindutva btw, if that matters.

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WHERE MY CAESAR'S MESSIAH SCHIZOS?

i feel like bringing up the historicity of christ to christians is kinda pointless. these are people… some of them at least… think the devil put fossils in the ground. like this isn't a level playing field. they don't believe in empiricism or even materialism. matter and energy are fictions. only god's mind and the devil's temptation and christ's forgiveness is real to these people. so evidence doesn't matter to them really. that's why it's called faith.

>>1222
The real problem is that these people use metaphors and allegories far too much
They also personalize God despite regarding God as beyond human understanding

>>1222
Most Christian’s don’t really believe in God they just hope that God is real

Their religious beliefs are shaped by ethnocultural biases


>>1224
yeah i know but they aren't going to say that out loud. instead they are going to say silly things to display loyalty to the ingroup and avoid shunning. sometimes this can escalate all the way to persecuting secularism or other religions.

>>1216
>There’s no evidence for the existence of Christ dating back to when he was canonically alive
Well, the problem is that we don't apply this standard to most historical figures. Old philosophers like Heraclitus and Parmenides are attested only in much later references and quotes, yet we treat them as if they did exist.

>>1227
To expand on this a bit more: documents from antiquity may survive or not survive for a myriad of reasons, not all of them correlated with their importance to us. Ultimately you have to go with what's more plausible: did someone really invent a mythological figure whole cloth and managed to spread it far and wide enough that within a century multiple independent sources attested his existence, or is it more realistic that said figure did exist? In the case of Jesus I'd say the evidence isn't super strong in either direction but the latter is a bit more likely.

>>1216
L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon, Joseph Smith, and Muhammad existed, but Christ didn't? They're the one cult that didn't have a charismatic founder?

>>1227
>Well, the problem is that we don't apply this standard to most historical figures. Old philosophers like Heraclitus and Parmenides are attested only in much later references and quotes, yet we treat them as if they did exist.
not if we're consistent we don't.

>>1229
>They're the one cult that didn't have a charismatic founder?
They had a charismatic founder. His name was Paul.

>>1230
Applying the same criteria to the existence of old pre-Socratic philosophers as we do to 1st century Jewish messiahs is consistent.

>>1231
We don’t talk about Paul
Some Christian sects regard him as a heretic

>>1227
>>1230
Already addressed in this video. Listen closely: https://xcancel.com/more_amalek/status/1926663278907785562

>>1229
Moon and LRH are literally our contemporaries, there’s plenty of independent evidence attesting to The Prophet Joseph Smith’s existence, and so that of prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).

The issue with Jesus Christ is that the gospels are literally our only source for Christ’s existence, and even then the gospels contain many mythical elements (such as the resurrection) on the top of being contradictory due to how the Bible consist of many documents authored by different people across centuries. Among the independent non-Christian ones, none of them are contemporary to Jesus’ times and not even Christ believers agree whether said documents are referring to Jesus himself (e.g., Pliny, who briefly mentions a certain “Christus” which could refer to any number of Judeans with such name).

Basically, there’s more attesting to Gaius Julius Caesar’s existence than that of Jesus Christ as portrayed in the Bible, the Quran or the Talmud.

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>>1216
This is such a stupid fucking hill to die on. We even have solid evidence that Pontius Pilate (the governor of the fucking province) existed until recently.

There was this thing called "The Fall of Rome" and a ton of Roman records were destroyed. One of the many dark spots this created was, unfortunately, the Levant. However, there are pagan Roman sources that we do have that would have had access to these Roman records and none of them cast doubt about Jesus's existence or crucifixion. In fact, the crucifixion was used by the pagans as the most popular evidence against Jesus's godhood, since the crucifixion story ran counter to pagan Roman conceptualizations of both divinity and morality.

>>1234
Not gonna watch an hour of this without timestamps, but the Twitter post accompanying it makes it sound like a waste of time. Comparing Socrates and Alexander the Great to Jesus is nonsense, because both were prominent figures *in their lifetimes*. Jesus, if he existed, was not. He would have been one of many preachers in Judea (and one of many cult leaders in the Roman world) and would have kept only a small amount of followers right after his death. Very different from a guy who was public enough to have a well-known playwright write an entire play mocking him, let alone a guy who literally built an empire.
That's why in my post I mentioned Heraclitus and Parmenides, not Socrates.


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