/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>1606134
I see you've updated the MIA wikipedia page. Here are some comments:

* I think rather than claiming a "Trotskyist" bias it's better to state an anti-Stalinist slant. While Trotsky was a major influence for the "old guard" that wrote most of the editorial content (coming out of the 1970s-80s New Left Trotskyist milieu for the most part), you can't really declare them as Trotskyist today; most had left organized Trot activism by the 90s to my knowledge, and some of the people I know wrote a lot of the Encyclopedia entries, like Andy Blunden, are openly skeptical of some Trot hallmarks have a more humanist perspective. Out of the newer writers of editorial content one is a leftcom and another (to my knowledge) is an ML. There's no formal editorial policy but the general rule is to avoid sectarian judgement without rigidly adhering to a false"neutrality".

* Regarding the whole MECW copyright strike situation - mirrors like https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/date/index.htm did not submit to the strike, so you should link readers who want to read a non-broken Marx Engels archive there.

>>1606202
LEFTYpedia page, corrected

>>1606202
You caught my first edit before I was done with the page, lol. I have made an attempt to summarize the MIA History page that you linked, but without yet incorporating the details from >>1602785 this post. (For example, I am obviously a zoomer who does not understand what BBS and Gopher are.) I also managed to dig up that Fortune article.

As for the "Trotskyist bias" section, that language could definitely use some improvement and I will try and work on it, but keep in mind that I am trying to represent to readers what the site actually looks like in its current form, regardless of intent from different editors over its 20-30 year lifespan. A note about the newer editorial content you mentioned would be great if you could provide me some examples of it.

Oh– I have some questions while you're at it. For one: the email from '95 about the site going down says Zodiac *intends* to get mirrors up and running, but the History page implies it was already well mirrored by that time. So which is it?

>>1605793
Sure, the PCP boiled babies and massacred villages for absolutely no reason at all. Just like how Stalin stole people's ice cream with a comically large spoon and Saddam Hussein personally ordered a zillion babies dumped out of incubators, right?

>>1605793
Nice projection, normie

>>1607743
>the PCP boiled babies and massacred villages for absolutely no reason at all.
Don't be cynical, I am asking for the reasons they did it.

>>1607920
Same reason why Stalin stole that ice cream, obviously.

>>1606134 [Me]
Assuming no further input I have been effectively swayed on the issue of Shining Path. Main points that have convinced me so far are:
* Very few parties in Peru actually have the exact same name. "Not to be confused with 'Peruvian Communist Party'" seems fine as solution.
* Leftypedia currently has only this one article for a communist party from Peru, meaning it is the most notable and useful in practical terms
* The name of the article doesn't really matter to me in the long run, this argument has gone on long enough

For a site where we are probably gonna redirect Albania to "People's Socialist Republic of Albania", this shit seems pretty minor to me.

You can weigh in here:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Talk:Shining_Path

Just a thought: on pages which deal with ongoing or recent revolutionary movements in the global south a problem we're going to run into is the issue of a lack of hard sources compared to other pages/subjects which might have an array of books and testimonies associated with them. For example the current activities of communists in Myanmar, Ukraine, or India is hard to give much detail on outside of what's reported in bourgeois media and fragmentary posts on social media by people directly involved.

To account for this, could there be a notice or something at the top of the page warning readers that, as this is a recent/ongoing event, sources on that page should be taken critically with the class interests of those reporting in mind.

motherfuckers out here arguing about parties in the 3rd world while I'm over here just making regular ass theory pages. it's comfy.

>>1616331
Ain't no theory without practice. There's a reason why the pages about actual parties and struggles are the ones which get more argument around them. That's where any theory worth a damn comes from.

>>1578239
>>1580877
Still fucked.

I've been slowly writing more for the MLM page and had a shitload more history written up that I was finishing up revisions on when my computer crashed and deleted it all.

I am in physical pain.

>>1626861
im sorry bud. I'm glad you worked on it though, you are doing good by the rest of us.

>>1626861
That hurts. Sorry to hear it. I guess this is why Jackbarn saves his edits after like every word. Maybe you need to be a save scummer if your PC is unreliable.

>Countless Israeli officers have admitted that the attack took them completely by surprise and was only possible due to a number of errors on the part of the Israelis. Analysts have cited a number of factors in the failure of Israel to prevent the incursion, including a successful military and political deception by Hamas, the present division of Israeli society due to the ongoing political crisis, tensions surrounding the status of the Jerusalem al-Aqsa Mosque, and a form of complacency or even "hubris" towards the Gaza conflict and the capabilities of Hamas.
>Several analysts have argued that the ongoing annexation and settling of the West Bank was a major factor in the Hamas operation's success. They stated that the Israeli government and military had been too focused on the annexation of the West Bank and had moved too many troops there to properly defend the Gaza frontier, a factor which Hamas was evidently aware of and successfully exploited.
>Israeli and international analysts agree that Hamas succeeded overwhelmingly in misleading Israel about its intentions, its readiness and level of military training, and its operational security. Hamas openly trained for the operation and even constructed a "mock Israeli settlement" for training purposes, even filming their own exercises. Speaking to Reuters, one anonymous source said that "Israel surely saw them but they were convinced that Hamas wasn't keen on getting into a confrontation." In addition, years of rocket attacks left Israel unprepared for a ground assault. It remains unknown how Hamas was able to train for the use of motorized paragliders and other complex elements of the operation.
From a new short article on the events in Israel/Gaza. Read or expand it here:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_war

>>1626861
write your edits in a desktop application that autosaves and has recovery
>>1627836
>Jackbarn
This guy seems like bad news. I was looking at recent changes today and read his bio. His contributions also seem sus. A lot of contributing antisemitic quotes form marx. Is he a bourgeois wrecker and concern troll? He seems like he has too much free time. Granted I've been contributing a lot too, but mostly after work…

>>1631107
/pol/ fuckhead. This is what happens if you allow them to fester.

>>1631363
I've been contributing a lot to this wiki lately. Granted only one article. But if this bozo starts fucking with my shit I'm done. I'd rather just write a book and do my own research than have it sabotaged by self-aggrandizing /pol/yps from defunct incelwikis that moderators fail to oppose.

Harry, time to euthanize this dog

>>1631107
>>1631363
>>1634240
>>1634245
My response is up. I was busy yesterday.
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Talk:On_the_Jewish_Question
In short, I explained why his edits were lazy and uninteresting. I was more restrained about it than I wanted to be. This guy is weird because I found his contribs at the Donald Trump article to be useful, and he also apparently >>1631107 has some sort of history with /leftypol/??
The heart of the issue, as you can tell by his bizarre RatWiki addition, is that his (publicly linked on his page) RationalWiki account shows at least a dozen edits to the Marx page about the antisemitism thing. He hadn't touched the page until I made a couple edits to it. And unsurprisingly, he's not even a Marxist:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Karl_Marx/Archive1
>>1634240
I want to be clear that these kind of edits are not accepted at Leftypedia and will be reverted or deleted. However, I honestly think we need a page about the antisemitism thing, and I am going to start that page separately.
>>1634245
He's on thin ice. His use of "leftist politically incorrect" in particular is so disingenuous.

This is a good time to remind everyone that the old leftypedia.org never had a set of rules to aid moderation and we still need one. I will post a draft version here if anons would be interested in discussing it.

Interesting new and WIP article: Reserve army of labour, an exhaustive page being worked on by Sankara's Strongest Soldier (good username):
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour

>>1634270
>Interesting new and WIP article: Reserve army of labour, an exhaustive page being worked on by Sankara's Strongest Soldier (good username):
>https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour

Thanks. I'm Sankara's Strongest Soldier. I've been working on that one. I'm trying to trace the idea historically and in particular find instances of the bourgeoisie supporting it, both before and after Marx. I was happy to stumble onto Malthus admitting to it in 1807 (without using the term itself), and what inspired me to make the article was this clip.

>>1634270
Not completely retarded approach, congrats.
Any word on when onions will be able to at least view the page?

>>1634325
I am still talking to the devs about it. They're not sure what the issue is. Can you tell me when you last were able to get it to work?

Has anyone been able to get Onion to work at all since the domain name changed to wiki.leftypol.org?

>>1635906
Wild guess, but the wiki. prefix might not be supported.

Onion link should now be fixed!

>>1639285
I'm the cunt bitching about this for the past x months: it works now, thank you :)

What's new:

I overhauled the article on "Liberalism":
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Liberalism

Short stub about the 2014 Ukraine coup I hope to help expand:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

I have been trying to keep "Israel-Gaza war" up to date but it's hopeless given how fast news is moving. In any case, my hope is that the Wiki format will enable us to create a serious alternative to Wikipedia and other disinfo.
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_war

And several other contribs by a new user. Hope to see the new pages grow.

>>1645126
Wat mechanisms do you have to ensure a plurality of tendencies and not fall to sectarianism the first time their is a disagreement?

>>1646140
TL;DR For now, policy is to have a third party judge and reconcile, and try to focus on facts and sources.

As a rule of thumb, I try to reconcile two versions into one text, usually allowing each viewpoint their own section or paragraph. Relying on quality sources, typically written by leftists, also helps to eliminate liberal viewpoints which are not encouraged on the site. While this has not actually been tested in the most extreme cases (Kronstadt, IWMA, Trotsky, Great Purge, you name it) it seems to have worked well for disputes over issues like Dengism, COVID policy and the like. Wisconcom quit the site recently after a sectarian dispute, but he was clearly in the wrong and I think the case is actually a good example of the site's fair but strict policy.
When facts are disputed, either a third party should help evaluate the sources, or the two different sources should be cited with a precise page number or website so that a casual reader can check both and draw their own conclusions. It is clearly naïve to say that all disputes of fact can be resolved in this way; this is where discussion should go to the Talk page and a compromise worked out. If both users are unhappy with the compromise, I have no issue with creating separate pages to write out disagreements, as I did in the case of Marx and his "antisemitism". Theoretical examples include "Trotskyist critiques of Stalin", "Nature of Chinese capitalism", "Confirmed Stalinist atrocities", "Personal character of Leon Trotsky" (MLs would go nuts for this one). The point is that the reader should know they are getting into something spicy.

The only users who have taken issue with this policy have been cranks. But I am open to discuss it. Do you see any potential flaws?

https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/1649335.html

a potential area for original research

Any time I edit the wiki, it gets stuck infinitely loading, and then all my other browser tabs stop working too, and I have to restart my browser. This only happens with the wiki. Did something change?

reserve army of labour article has been updated with sections detailing the subject matter's treatment in volume two and volume three of capital. Also a list of synonyms have been supplied since Marx likes to use synonyms to analyze a subject from various standpoints (which can make it hard to find terms when searching).

>>1646415
Thank you for your explanation and clarification, anon. I just thought it was important information for potentially people being involved in the project.
I have no big potential flaws i can see, i think a willingness to [ut energy, thought and process in this is a very good thing.

Man, one of the few times I decide to use Visual Editor and it crashes and deletes everything. I'll have to try again later to update the Gaza article.

>>1674685
Why are we using basic citations? can we not install whatever is needed to use wikipedia-esque citations with also the auto-generation?

>>1675672
I'm not sure what you're talking about. The best way I know of to make citations is listed at https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Help:Editing_Leftypedia under "Citing sources". The "Citer" tool makes citing sources ten times faster and is probably what many Wiki editors use. I am not aware of a better tool used somewhere on Wikipedia.

>>1676121
In the wikipedia editor citations are auto generated and in a different format to these crappy 'basic' citations that you are using.
it's hard to explain better, for an example just go to any wikipedia article, edit it and go to make an citation.

>>1676184
I see, you want the citation template generator to be part of the Visual Editor itself. I never edit Wikipedia so I had no idea. I'll look into getting the devs to do that, but there is a backlog of things they haven't fixed yet. To be honest, I've used the web tool with the VEditor myself and I find it probably takes less than two extra seconds to tab out, paste the link, and copy-paste the new citation. I tested a couple links with both, and the output that Wikipedia generated was almost identical to the output generated by the tool. Wikipedia also has its own page with links to various citation tools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Citation_tools
I understand this is just one more issue that gets in the way of people's editing workflow. And I do get that those add up. So, although I don't expect a response from the devs, I'll bring it up with someone anyway. In the meantime, I hope you can still edit comfortably with the fixes I suggested.

>>1676225
Thanks, pretty sure I have this feature on my personal install of mediawiki, so it should just be a case of downloading a extension into the folder, but i could be wrong, i'll have a look later. :)
>I hope you can still edit comfortably with the fixes I suggested.
I can, i just hope nobody gets to anal about not doing citations very detailed like i normally would on WP. :)

>>1676230
Oh, i think a lot of it comes from templates, here is an example of how wikipedia does it, and imho, much better because it creates a standardization rather than 'basic' citations which really vary a lot depending on who made them for obvious reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_news

Just lost a bunch of progress on the Gaza War article again. I guess I'm going to quit using Visual Editor if I want to make any major edits at all.

In any case, the article is taking shape, even if some of it is outdated

>>1688710
Can't you copy paste or something or make auto-saves?

>>1688722
If someone can tell me how to do either of those, I would be happy to do it. Copy-paste is easy with source editor, but on visual edit a copy-paste would just copy a bunch of unformatted text.

What's new:

Modern Monetary Theory getting more updates:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

Someone created a Russian Empire page in Russian… I'm not sure how to deal with it, especially because there is no such page in English. The site is not intended to have multiple languages like ProleWiki, but if people are willing to contribute I don't see why not to move it to its own RU-language section.
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Russian_Empire

Article on the events in Gaza still getting slowly expanded and updated, but missing a lot of key pieces to this huge event:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_war

Started article on Zionism, with intended section on Zionism and its anti-Semitic history:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Zionism

Continuing with the same topic, "public relations of Israel" includes racist rhetoric, manipulation of anti-Semitism and Jewish history, and use of international organizations like the ADL, WJC, and AIPAC:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Public_relations_of_Israel

>>1689988
>Someone created a Russian Empire page in Russian… I'm not sure how to deal with it, especially because there is no such page in English.
It's a copypasta from Great Soviet Encyclopedia. I wouldn't say it's particulary valuable.

>>1690019
Damn. Maybe it's not worth keeping then, since there already exists an English version of the GSE online… but it sucks that someone went to the trouble of formatting it here.

Our Suggestions box continues to get updated with random bits of info and suggestions for further research. Capuch1n has been regularly expanding their section on the page.

tested

"In 2023, a student at MIT published a statistical language analysis of years of New York Times articles that showed a pervasive use of the passive voice going back to the First and Second Intifadas."
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Public_relations_of_Israel

"'Fifteen years ago, as Head of the Southern Command [during the brutal Operation Cast Lead], I came close to breaking the neck of Hamas. I was stopped by the political echelon. This phenomenon will not continue. We will change reality on the ground in Gaza for the next 50 years.'"
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Yoav_Gallant

"Kalashnikov was a self-taught engineer with little formal education who never profited from the rights to his weapons even after the capitalist counter-revolution, instead living on a modest state pension which allowed him to maintain a comfortable lifestyle. He never supported the dissolution of the Soviet Union and was a harsh critic of Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin. Kalashnikov remained until a supporter of the legacy of the USSR, socialism, and Vladimir Lenin until his death, and expressed regret that he had never gotten to meet Stalin while had been alive. He never regretted his invention and was proud of its popularity until his death."
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Mikhail_Kalashnikov