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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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 No.1574396[Last 50 Posts]

Leftypedia lived - Leftypedia lives - Leftypedia will live!

Greetings, comrades. Leftypedia, the radical encyclopedia, should be back in a usable state. We have more moderators, which will help with spam from now on, and images are slowly being repopulated for your viewing pleasure. The new domain has been up and running for a while at https://wiki.leftypol.org, and we've imported the vast majority of content that was on the old site while adding a lot of new stuff. I hope that Anons can come back and fill in any content that was lost.

For those unaware, Leftypedia is an original /leftypol/ project dedicated to combating the disinformation of mainstream media and academic sources, as well as discussing leftist history, theory, and practice from a multi-sectarian viewpoint. We welcome additions from different leftist perspectives provided that they are properly sourced and well argued. In addition, we maintain a separate space, tentatively titled "Essays", for more subjective or polemic work.

The original thread is here: >>>/edu/3780
You can find Leftypedia at: https://wiki.leftypol.org
Help for new editors: https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Leftypedia:Community_portal


Very nice


Greetings you have competition



Friendly competition. We have already talked about collaborating in the past


ProleWiki is explicitly M-L focused, so neither need to really compete. And either way, it's all open knowledge, its not like these sites are making money off of users in a zero-sum paradigm. It's digital text, you can literally just link (or even copypaste)


I was hoping for → >>1574408




So shouldnt we just start by copy pasting most articles from other places to consolidate a base as per the guidelines?


You mean the "quantity over quality" thing? I don't know who wrote that or why, but I had enough trouble restoring those old pages that I didn't bother revising them. My take is: quantity > quality in terms of information; quality > quantity in terms of actual page count, editing, and writing. One good article is better than 20 "stubs".
You could also basically just put sources, like good articles or books, in the Suggestion box or even in this thread (or both). And preferably people who like to edit Wikis will come around and synthesize the info.

What kind of pages were you thinking about copy-pasting?


>no Visual Editor


Does this link work?
I don't use the Visual Editor myself, so I wouldn't know where to find the button, but others use it just fine.


Thanks anons, very cool.


Leftypedia is a bit shit, it is not an open wiki project, meaning that all your edits are subject to review before they are accepted, which takes a very long time, this breaks up the editing process to the point it makes it pretty unisable.
If i was you anons i would not waste your time, nothing personal to the project but it will never last or gain a critical mass of editors how it is set up.


I was not around when the policies were set up on leftypedia.org – but I have never had this issue editing. If this is a policy in place I am not aware of it. All I had to do was create an account.


My bad then, I shall try to edit again some time if this is no longer the case.


Onion address is fucked.



File: 1692902057438.webm (8.97 MB, 1280x720, 1689883928743.webm)


Well done comrades. Question : what is the process around submitting / vetting essays ?


If you are a vetted (not banned) user, you can write an essay.

I need to study Wiki policy more before I try to formulate strict rules. Wikipedia wrote their policies over years and years, and I think it would be better to start editing rather than worry about policy right now. But any policy suggestions are appreciated.

Yes, I have asked devs about it and am waiting on a response. Sorry for the inconvenience.



I see . IMO the project has value as a compendium for these kinds of perspectives . There actually are some pretty smart users on this board , with points of view that you really can’t find anywhere else on the internet due to algorithmic suppression of leftist ideas, distraction , or the general intellectual banality of the user base .

I’d invite those maintaining the project to view it more as a compendium to capture that content which is unique to this platform , rather than just another wiki . Which might be the idea all along. This is why I like the Essays feature .


Everything you said is correct. The Essay space is intended to put in one place the gems that now are scattered from Reddit to /leftypol/ and beyond. The main purpose of moderating the Essay system would be to prevent one or two motivated spammers from monopolizing or abusing the namespace somehow.


> (…) put in one place the gems that now are scattered from Reddit to (…)
Oh brother
Thank god I can read wikirouge



Not even a Trotskyist, but come on


Based wiki.


Not exactly surprised the "ML encyclopedia" turns out to be silly and unserious. Trots can be obnoxious assholes but at least they put a semblance of professionalism with wikirouge and marxists.org.


Cool, we got all the kids.


trotsissies in shambles


I was not aware that marxists.org was a "trot" website. Us Marxist-Leninists make great use of Marxists.org.


Maybe he's talking about marxists.com, but the inclusion of anarchists on marxists.org seems like a Trot thing to do.


They explicitly side with the Trotskyist perspective.


Trots bought a lot of domains with "marx" in the 90s. marxists.org is one of them.
However they have still archived the writings of "Stalinists" anyway despite their opposition to it.


File: 1695126471655.png (10.04 KB, 290x150, ClipboardImage.png)



File: 1695130812582.mp4 (553.38 KB, 1280x720, marxists.org.mp4)

another L for MLs


That’s the thing about Trotskyists. They actually organize on a street level. They actually organize on an internet level. They actually meet and run advocacy groups. They actually send each other pamphlets. They actually organize on an international level despite their differences.

The only organized behavior I usually see from Stalinists is their whining about Trotskyists on social media and image boards. Usually when I talk to a Stalinist they read a few good articles from Stalin when he was under Lenin, and haven’t read anything by Trotsky.


Literally all I've ever seen Trotskyists do "on a street level" is whine about getting kicked out of a Pro-Palestine action for preaching two-state solution shit and interrupting a UPS Teamsters practice picket to pass out flyers while actively avoiding conversation with the workers.

I'm not gonna pretend that Trotskyists can't possibly do good work (marxists.org is objectively good work done in tandem with Marxists of other tendencies), or align with the revolutionary struggle when it comes down to the critical moment, but Trotskyism has ultimately failed to produce a vital revolutionary movement capable of advancing past the limitations of Marxism-Leninism, and has instead produced an orthodox Leninism which struggles to find a home outside of the intelligentsia.


Oh really. That’s funny, because I’ve seen Trotskyists work help organize rank-and-file committees on unions, work with university faculty to organize collective action against cuts, organize anti-war demonstrations, setup online Marxist libraries, setup online Marxist classes, and fly overseas to meet for larger international meetings.

You must not get out of your echo chamber very frequently.


>I’ve seen Trotskyists work help organize rank-and-file committees on unions, work with university faculty to organize collective action against cuts, organize anti-war demonstrations, setup online Marxist libraries, setup online Marxist classes, and fly overseas to meet for larger international meetings.

The trotskyites were only being strategic. They are infiltrating those groups, to maintain their petty bourgeois hegemony for when it is inevitably challeneged further down the line; the best and most powerful trotskyites are full-time wreckers after all, that's how they sustain themselves. This is the theory of permanent counter-revolution in practice.


Hell my good friend’s Trotskyist organization sends me a load of newspapers and pamphlets to pass out twice a month. They’ve connected me with a lot of different people who are doing stuff on a street level. Like I know Trotsky looks weird, and he’s definitely kind of a beta the way Stalin was able to ice pick him like that, but Trotskyists organizations are very active.
>but Trotskyism has ultimately failed to produce a vital revolutionary movement capable of advancing past the limitations of Marxism-Leninism, and has instead produced an orthodox Leninism which struggles to find a home outside of the intelligentsia.
Why haven’t Stalinists or Maoists started the one true bloody Marxist revolution yet? For that matter why haven’t you? Hmmm?


>The trotskyites were only being strategic. They are infiltrating those groups, to maintain their petty bourgeois hegemony for when it is inevitably challeneged further down the line
Sure, all the Trotskyists I know are secretly driven by the motivation to maintain the petty bourgeois status! It all makes sense now thumbs_up.png.


If capitalists are vampires, then trotskyites are just fucking mosquitoes.

All trotskyites start as mosquitoe larvae: an infantile bastardization of marxism; eventually, they're fucking everywhere and they're always buzzing around spreading their noise - preaching their gospel. They suck the life from the people, tricking them into paying their dues, then they leave the people with nothing but fever dreams and malaria. Once a trotskyite has sucked enough and grown to a point they're indistinguishable, fundamentally, from any capitalist. Once they have power, they enthrall their filthy lumpens, those who have the free time, into doing their bidding. Once the host - whatever org they're wrecking - has died, they move onto the next.


File: 1695181701751.jpg (57.6 KB, 500x289, Six Heads ML.jpg)

As someone who actively volunteers for Marxists.org I can fill you in on the whole Trot / Anti-Stalinist thing:

So the whole project started as far back as 1990 when various Marxists on Usenet started sharing Marxist texts in plaintext (most of which, by the way, were typed out by hand instead of OCR scanning, and which are still hosted to this day - albeit with several hard-to-spot errors and tiny editorial changes as a result). The Marx Engels Online Library was founded as a Gopher site in 1993 by a guy called Zodiac who hosted it on a university web server (for another fun fact, the whole project was almost wiped out in 1995 after a Wall Street Journal article mentioned that "even communists have found a home on the world wide web" and enraged porkies had the site deleted). Anyway, the project started to gain many volunteers who wanted to expand into authors other than Marx and Engels - Zodiac acquiesced at first, but later in 1998 claimed that expanding with a Trotsky archive and other authors would lead the site into "sectarianism" and deleted all authors but Marx and Engels.

After this coup, the rest of the volunteers split from Zodiac and founded Marxists.org, which would "always be based on democratic decision-making" (read: a big mailing list where very few votes are taken and volunteers mostly do their own thing). Even though the group remained committed to anti-sectarianism and political independence - however, this didn't apply to Stalinism, and a lot of editorial content was eager to tell readers that true Marxism was anti-Stalinist (fun fact #3: the site was very nearly called MELT.org, for Marx Engels Lenin Trotsky). One vestigial sign of this attitude is that Stalin's archive is located in the "reference" folder - meaning he is sorted with pre-Marxists and anti-Marxists like Bakunin and even Milton Friedman: trotsky.org/reference/archive/stalin The MIA stopped sorting authors into Marxists and non-Marxists in 2007 but the directory structure remains; however, to this day it's in the MIA charter that the Selected Marxists page "will not include Stalin or Mao".

Probably the vast majority of editorial content is 20+ years old now though, and plenty of hardline ML stuff is on Marxists.org today. As for the current political stance of volunteers, I'd say there's a slant towards Trotskyism or especially post-Trotskyism, but very little editorial content is still being written today vs pure archival work. The Trot slant is mostly thanks to the old guard who built the site in the late 90s and are still active today (in particular, it seems there are many ex-Healyites - a "big three" Trot group that collapsed in the late 80s and therefore had a lot of ex-members with a lot of time on their hands).

So after that rambling wall of text, here's the TL;DR: the editorial consensus back when the site was built in the late 90s and early 2000s was anti-Stalinist, but nowadays there are many ML volunteers and the tendency is tolerated, in keeping with the non-sectarian educational mission of the site. If you guys want me to try and get the worst anti-Stalinist lines toned down or rewritten, I can raise them with the Steering Committee. At this juncture I'm guessing they would accept it.


Oh trust me, I'm plenty out of any "echo chamber". Working in the tenant struggle makes sure you never have the opportunity. I feel like I should reiterate, though: I'm not gonna pretend that Trotskyists can't possibly do good work. This isn't personal or anything, I've read plenty of Trotsky and have essentially the same opinion as what revolutionaries like Walter Rodney have laid out: man lost the plot after Lenin died, and it became more about him than the actual movement, and Trotskyist organizations are by and large alienated from the genuine revolutionary movement. Trotskyists aren't fighting in the streets or in the countryside, Trotskyists aren't seizing state power, Trotskyists aren't generating new formations and strategies for making revolution, and instead fell to the same economism and chauvinism that the 3rd International parties would mostly find themselves mired in after Stalin's death. Say what you will about Marxism-Leninism, these parties and revolutionary movements have had the vitality to creatively produce solutions to the particularities of their conditions (Focoism, Protracted People's War, Urban Guerilla War, etc.) and seize state power, while Trotskyism dogmatically attaches itself to the insurrectionary model which so far has only seen success in the Russian Revolution.

I also think it needs to be said that while all of what you listed can be great work, rank-and-file union committees are simply not the same as organizing alongside the labor movement towards revolution. The labor movement in the west, and especially in the United States and UK, is completely reformist and the communists involved economistic. Trotskyism has done nothing to resolve this beyond entryism. University and education union organizing likewise (and I'm saying this as a teacher) only has a thin veneer of greater radicalism.

The most advanced anti-war and anti-imperialist action that Trotskyism has produced is that outlined by Sam Marcy, and his practice led to a break with the SWP and resulted in parties which have all seen success distancing themselves from Trotskyism, rather than embracing it. Even then, the militancy of these demonstrations is entirely rhetorical. They might even call back to the phrase "by any means necessary", but frankly I haven't met a single Trotskyist in my organizing that would go beyond saying those words. There's no room in their revolution for the insurrection and violence they speak of.

As I previously stated, marxists.org is objectively great work. That being said, though the website's originators are Trotskyist, that team of people haven't done everything on that site. For example, the Encyclopedia of Anti-Revisionism On-Line was a collaborative project that wouldn't have been possible without the active involvement of people who were entrenched in the history covered by that archive. It's also notable that outside of the impressive example of marxists.org, there aren't any projects of even close to comparable effort or notoriety. To talk of "libraries" as a plural is a bit of an exaggeration then, no?

Literally everyone does online marxist classes. I've done online marxist classes. These are possibly the simplest, easiest form of political education you can engage with, and unfortunately the one with the least impact on real organizing. Where I'm at, we've had far greater success with communist political education as part of leadership development between tenant union and party work.

International meetings are all well and good so long as they have a point. Trotskyists have a reputation for endlessly founding new "Fourth Internationals" for a reason. International meetings like the IMCWP, ICOR, ILPS, etc. all involve parties far more involved in active revolutionary struggle which tackle active points of disunity among Marxist-Leninists and Maoists with the hopes of achieving unity through struggle, rather than declaring new internationals to rally toward before unity is achieved (as an aside, the "Principally Maoist" ICL has made this identical error)

>Why haven’t Stalinists or Maoists started the one true bloody Marxist revolution yet? For that matter why haven’t you? Hmmm?
Laziest criticism possible. This can be equally levied at any Marxist tendency. There will never be ONE TRUE socialist revolution just as that has never happened with any previous mode of production. There will also never be just one true prophet of the revolution, regardless of how Trotskyists demand we dogmatically view Lenin and Trotsky. Continuity-rupture of one stage of a science into a new one is a collective effort, one which Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc. alone couldn't possibly hope to accomplish alone. If you disagree with what I've stated, fine. Actually engage with it like an adult and defend or adjust your position. This engagement is part of that collective effort, and I'm happy to take part.


I am sorry but not all trots are entryist and many urban guerilla groups were trotskyist


>not all trots are entryist
Sure, but Trotskyism as a tendency has repeatedly led to entryist practice in Trotskyist parties worldwide, something which you may not have observed firsthand, but I have. That Trotskyism has a reputation for this within the Communist movement independent of you or I, and an issue discussed even by Trotskyists, is further evidence to me of this consistent trend.
>many urban guerilla groups were trotskyist
And yet when conversations of urban guerilla groups arises they aren't the ones to come up, are they? No. In those conversations we talk about the Black Liberation Army, the Red Army Faction, the New People's Army, the People's Liberation Guerilla Army, the American Indian Movement, Weather Underground, etc. I don't dispute the existence of Trotskyist guerilla projects, I dispute their significance and effectiveness.


Interesting post, thank you for your service comrade


Going to ignore the shitflinging in this thread.

I saw this but didn't know how best to fix it as I am not an anarchist. Regardless I have made an attempt to organize it better.

A similar problem exists at the following page, where my ignorance of Maoism makes it hard for me to organize the different Maoism-s:
My understanding is that "Maoism" as a term refers to several contradictory tendencies that are all derived from MZT, and that the word itself, when used in English, most often refers to pre-Sendero formulations such as that of the Panthers, Naxalites etc. But I have no sources to cite in this regard. I do not believe that Maoism most often refers to MLM and I support making "Maoism" back into a disambig page.

The main source of the weaknesses of this site is that very few editors use it at present, mainly myself. I am neither a Maoist nor an anarchist and therefore these pages have not been improved since they were slapped together on the old Leftypedia. I invite more knowledgeable users to contribute to the relevant pages if they feel that pages are biased.


This post would make a good addition to the MIA page.

>the whole project was almost wiped out in 1995 after a Wall Street Journal article mentioned that "even communists have found a home on the world wide web" and enraged porkies had the site deleted)

Do you happen to have an archive of this piece? The archives only go back to '97:


As a Maoist I'll try my hand at editing things. For those who might start some shit, no I'm not going to glorify Maoism or introduce "bias" or whatever, but I'll do my best to clarify different tendencies based on my understanding of things. Also I'll suggest an edit to "Shining Path", as the Communist Party of Peru doesn't refer to themselves as that. "Shining Path" was a name produced by the Peruvian dictatorship to make them sound scary and cultish.


>As a Maoist
Glad to have you. Don't worry about bias too much, if something is biased the role of other users is to try and work it out. My hope is that the adversarial method will help us arrive at something approximating the consensus of this website, and that an impasse will result in some nice Essay arguments.

Would you mind weighing in on the Maoism discussion? It was started by a Hoxhaist of all people:

"Your post was probably submitted" bruh I don't see no fucking post


Made the edits. I'll hopefully be able to also elaborate on the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement in its own page as it's basically impossible to discuss the PCP and the formation of MLM as we know it today without talking about RIM.


I'd like to weigh in on the talk page but I'm not seeing the button to reply like in Wikipedia's talk pages. I'll do it via editing source but just wanna say here this is the only method I'm seeing for doing it so it doesn't come off as vandalism.


Comrade can you also point out that there are today different lines within MLM, as a results of the decades of praxis it has already had? I saw you are aware of the ICL debacle by your comment up here >>1602798
It would be great if this gets broader understanding among new Marxists, young communists.
As far as I can tell there are three. Gonzaloists, CPP+CPI(Maoist)s and Maoists who operate in the imperial core and have to adapt their praxis more to classical Leninist methods (for lack of better terms).

Also could be worth pointing out the many clear connections between Mao Zedong Thought, Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution on the theory of the (here) influential creative Marxist economist/computer scientist Paul Cockshott (from what I can tell he's not a strict MLM today, but, if one were to place his theories on a spectrum it would definitely be closer to Maoist concepts than those of a lot of other theorists today outside MLM, but there are also clear council communist leanings too for sure).


Feel free to reply to the discussion, I would be glad to have more info on the topic - but you have already answered my question by confirming that MLM is the most common usage of the term.


Personally I see two real lines within Maoism, "Gonzaloism" (a term I would strongly urge we not use on Leftypedia as, like "Shining Path", it's largely a pejorative) representing the left tendency of the movement and a more centrist line expressed by the non-ICL parties engaged in people's war and those who have expressed similar statements that the ICL is premature (unity isn't yet achieved). There is a rightist tendency as well, which I would vaguely place people like Cockshott into, but they're extremely marginal within the wider Maoist terrain and hold more influence within the rightist "anti-revisionist" ML parties like the CPGB-ML and PCUSA.

This all being said, this can all go into the actual MLM page, rather than the disambiguation. Additionally, as a critique of the project so far, on these pages I see a lot of editorializing and few, if any, sources. Though for pages like for the Communist Party of Peru we'll have the issue of few english-language sources and fewer primary sources from the party, that's no excuse for it to be in the state that it's in. It's not difficult to find well-sourced critiques of the PCP from Maoists such as https://maoistcommunistunion.com/red-pages/issue-3/a-critical-evaluation-of-gonzaloism/, so if editors want to take a critical tone, at least be well researched about it.


My bad, it was actually Fortune magazine, not WSJ, and the quote wasn't a direct quote. I don't know the exact article but it was "recent" as of June 16th 1995, see the original source; https://www.marxists.org/admin/intro/history/newsgroups/1995-06-16.htm

My original post, by the way, came mostly from my recollections of the MIA's own site history section, which is linked here: https://www.marxists.org/admin/intro/history/index.htm


>Personally I see two real lines within Maoism, "Gonzaloism" (a term I would strongly urge we not use on Leftypedia as, like "Shining Path", it's largely a pejorative) representing the left tendency of the movement and a more centrist line expressed by the non-ICL parties engaged in people's war and those who have expressed similar statements that the ICL is premature (unity isn't yet achieved). There is a rightist tendency as well, which I would vaguely place people like Cockshott into, but they're extremely marginal within the wider Maoist terrain and hold more influence within the rightist "anti-revisionist" ML parties like the CPGB-ML and PCUSA.
Of what use is the "left", "center", "right" designation among these groups other than for Gonzalo Thought:ists to self-congratulate (saying that they are the "left" line, against more "right-wing" lines)?
I conceptualize [given tendency's] correctness based on the effectiveness of their praxis. The GT tendency is theoretically weak and its peoples struggle has been crushed. The Indian and Philippine experiments are clearly more successful in both practice and theory, they do not contradict but rather cite Mao, they do not lag behind with dogma, but apply materialist dialectics creatively to new obstacles. What warrants them the label "to the right of the [failed] PCP", which was itself mired in numerous petty-bourgeois errors? I think it's clear that the narrative is merely GT rhetoric, resting on very shaky grounding.


>Of what use is the "left", "center", "right" designation among these groups other than for Gonzalo Thought:ists to self-congratulate
Because that's their position in relation to each other's politics, regardless of correctness. Keep in mind I don't align with the "principally Maoist" line, so my designation of them as the left of Maoism isn't meant to be "congratulatory". To have the most left line isn't a sign of correctness, at times it can be another form of opportunism. In the process of history what was once the correct left line can also become an incorrect line if its internal contradictions aren't resolved (negation of the negation). This is what happened with the PCP. Their initial correctness and strengths in their people's war were eventually liquidated (after the capture of its Central Committee, not just Gonzalo) into an ultra-left commandist line marked by an incapability to face those same internal contradictions.
>I conceptualize [given tendency's] correctness based on the effectiveness of their praxis.
I wouldn't disagree with this, though I'd add the caveat that the most effective praxis can only come from the most correct line (noting that perfection of either is impossible, just "most" relative to others). This leaves room to recognize the historical PCP as a genuine revolutionary force as part of RIM which the center-Maoist parties are in direct sequence with. The CPI (Maoist) likely wouldn't exist at all without the lessons of Peru and Nepal. That the CPI (Maoist) and CPP are to the right of the ICL and current PCP isn't an insult, it's a sign that they're carrying the torch RIM and the PCP lit and are correctly navigating the space between ultra-left commandism and ultra-right opportunism.


There is no such thing as Gonzaloism. The only reason that term exists is a because the stupid crackers in the Northern Hemisphere don't know how to analyze their local conditions with any originality (this is mostly towards those Austin Red Tards, that've sadly tainted the movement in the US). The Peruvian experience is definitely valid in Latin America and it sucks that true revolutionaries there are being slandered by libs thanks to the fuckin whites


Which material conditions in S. America make it a place where the worker/people's struggle is advanced by boiling babies alive and massacring whole villages? I'm thinking I might become a MLM, if I find the appropriate conditions. I have a cauldron already.


Discussion about the title of the "Shining Path" article is still ongoing:

I invite Maoists, Latin Americans and others to weigh in. I have stated my position there: we should, if possible, use whatever name Peruvian leftists from other groups use, regardless of whether some consider it to be a pejorative. The party's self-descriptor "Communist Party of Peru" is, I would say, unhelpful, but if the (several) other parties of similar name truly are completely defunct and irrelevant, then I assume the Peruvian left must refer to the group as the one and only Communist Party, resolving the issue. If not, then there needs to be some discriminator.

Thank you for the link. I will use it to expand the MIA page.

Same posting error as before >_>


I see you've updated the MIA wikipedia page. Here are some comments:

* I think rather than claiming a "Trotskyist" bias it's better to state an anti-Stalinist slant. While Trotsky was a major influence for the "old guard" that wrote most of the editorial content (coming out of the 1970s-80s New Left Trotskyist milieu for the most part), you can't really declare them as Trotskyist today; most had left organized Trot activism by the 90s to my knowledge, and some of the people I know wrote a lot of the Encyclopedia entries, like Andy Blunden, are openly skeptical of some Trot hallmarks have a more humanist perspective. Out of the newer writers of editorial content one is a leftcom and another (to my knowledge) is an ML. There's no formal editorial policy but the general rule is to avoid sectarian judgement without rigidly adhering to a false"neutrality".

* Regarding the whole MECW copyright strike situation - mirrors like https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/date/index.htm did not submit to the strike, so you should link readers who want to read a non-broken Marx Engels archive there.


LEFTYpedia page, corrected


You caught my first edit before I was done with the page, lol. I have made an attempt to summarize the MIA History page that you linked, but without yet incorporating the details from >>1602785 this post. (For example, I am obviously a zoomer who does not understand what BBS and Gopher are.) I also managed to dig up that Fortune article.

As for the "Trotskyist bias" section, that language could definitely use some improvement and I will try and work on it, but keep in mind that I am trying to represent to readers what the site actually looks like in its current form, regardless of intent from different editors over its 20-30 year lifespan. A note about the newer editorial content you mentioned would be great if you could provide me some examples of it.

Oh– I have some questions while you're at it. For one: the email from '95 about the site going down says Zodiac *intends* to get mirrors up and running, but the History page implies it was already well mirrored by that time. So which is it?


Sure, the PCP boiled babies and massacred villages for absolutely no reason at all. Just like how Stalin stole people's ice cream with a comically large spoon and Saddam Hussein personally ordered a zillion babies dumped out of incubators, right?


Nice projection, normie


>the PCP boiled babies and massacred villages for absolutely no reason at all.
Don't be cynical, I am asking for the reasons they did it.


Same reason why Stalin stole that ice cream, obviously.


>>1606134 [Me]
Assuming no further input I have been effectively swayed on the issue of Shining Path. Main points that have convinced me so far are:
* Very few parties in Peru actually have the exact same name. "Not to be confused with 'Peruvian Communist Party'" seems fine as solution.
* Leftypedia currently has only this one article for a communist party from Peru, meaning it is the most notable and useful in practical terms
* The name of the article doesn't really matter to me in the long run, this argument has gone on long enough

For a site where we are probably gonna redirect Albania to "People's Socialist Republic of Albania", this shit seems pretty minor to me.

You can weigh in here:


Just a thought: on pages which deal with ongoing or recent revolutionary movements in the global south a problem we're going to run into is the issue of a lack of hard sources compared to other pages/subjects which might have an array of books and testimonies associated with them. For example the current activities of communists in Myanmar, Ukraine, or India is hard to give much detail on outside of what's reported in bourgeois media and fragmentary posts on social media by people directly involved.

To account for this, could there be a notice or something at the top of the page warning readers that, as this is a recent/ongoing event, sources on that page should be taken critically with the class interests of those reporting in mind.


motherfuckers out here arguing about parties in the 3rd world while I'm over here just making regular ass theory pages. it's comfy.


Ain't no theory without practice. There's a reason why the pages about actual parties and struggles are the ones which get more argument around them. That's where any theory worth a damn comes from.


Still fucked.


I've been slowly writing more for the MLM page and had a shitload more history written up that I was finishing up revisions on when my computer crashed and deleted it all.

I am in physical pain.


im sorry bud. I'm glad you worked on it though, you are doing good by the rest of us.


That hurts. Sorry to hear it. I guess this is why Jackbarn saves his edits after like every word. Maybe you need to be a save scummer if your PC is unreliable.


>Countless Israeli officers have admitted that the attack took them completely by surprise and was only possible due to a number of errors on the part of the Israelis. Analysts have cited a number of factors in the failure of Israel to prevent the incursion, including a successful military and political deception by Hamas, the present division of Israeli society due to the ongoing political crisis, tensions surrounding the status of the Jerusalem al-Aqsa Mosque, and a form of complacency or even "hubris" towards the Gaza conflict and the capabilities of Hamas.
>Several analysts have argued that the ongoing annexation and settling of the West Bank was a major factor in the Hamas operation's success. They stated that the Israeli government and military had been too focused on the annexation of the West Bank and had moved too many troops there to properly defend the Gaza frontier, a factor which Hamas was evidently aware of and successfully exploited.
>Israeli and international analysts agree that Hamas succeeded overwhelmingly in misleading Israel about its intentions, its readiness and level of military training, and its operational security. Hamas openly trained for the operation and even constructed a "mock Israeli settlement" for training purposes, even filming their own exercises. Speaking to Reuters, one anonymous source said that "Israel surely saw them but they were convinced that Hamas wasn't keen on getting into a confrontation." In addition, years of rocket attacks left Israel unprepared for a ground assault. It remains unknown how Hamas was able to train for the use of motorized paragliders and other complex elements of the operation.
From a new short article on the events in Israel/Gaza. Read or expand it here:


File: 1697176945131.png (89.72 KB, 779x367, ClipboardImage.png)

write your edits in a desktop application that autosaves and has recovery
This guy seems like bad news. I was looking at recent changes today and read his bio. His contributions also seem sus. A lot of contributing antisemitic quotes form marx. Is he a bourgeois wrecker and concern troll? He seems like he has too much free time. Granted I've been contributing a lot too, but mostly after work…


/pol/ fuckhead. This is what happens if you allow them to fester.


I've been contributing a lot to this wiki lately. Granted only one article. But if this bozo starts fucking with my shit I'm done. I'd rather just write a book and do my own research than have it sabotaged by self-aggrandizing /pol/yps from defunct incelwikis that moderators fail to oppose.


File: 1697311336433-0.png (109.96 KB, 791x418, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1697311336433-1.png (177.31 KB, 771x549, ClipboardImage.png)

Harry, time to euthanize this dog


My response is up. I was busy yesterday.
In short, I explained why his edits were lazy and uninteresting. I was more restrained about it than I wanted to be. This guy is weird because I found his contribs at the Donald Trump article to be useful, and he also apparently >>1631107 has some sort of history with /leftypol/??
The heart of the issue, as you can tell by his bizarre RatWiki addition, is that his (publicly linked on his page) RationalWiki account shows at least a dozen edits to the Marx page about the antisemitism thing. He hadn't touched the page until I made a couple edits to it. And unsurprisingly, he's not even a Marxist:
I want to be clear that these kind of edits are not accepted at Leftypedia and will be reverted or deleted. However, I honestly think we need a page about the antisemitism thing, and I am going to start that page separately.
He's on thin ice. His use of "leftist politically incorrect" in particular is so disingenuous.

This is a good time to remind everyone that the old leftypedia.org never had a set of rules to aid moderation and we still need one. I will post a draft version here if anons would be interested in discussing it.

Interesting new and WIP article: Reserve army of labour, an exhaustive page being worked on by Sankara's Strongest Soldier (good username):


>Interesting new and WIP article: Reserve army of labour, an exhaustive page being worked on by Sankara's Strongest Soldier (good username):

Thanks. I'm Sankara's Strongest Soldier. I've been working on that one. I'm trying to trace the idea historically and in particular find instances of the bourgeoisie supporting it, both before and after Marx. I was happy to stumble onto Malthus admitting to it in 1807 (without using the term itself), and what inspired me to make the article was this clip.


Not completely retarded approach, congrats.
Any word on when onions will be able to at least view the page?


I am still talking to the devs about it. They're not sure what the issue is. Can you tell me when you last were able to get it to work?

Has anyone been able to get Onion to work at all since the domain name changed to wiki.leftypol.org?


Wild guess, but the wiki. prefix might not be supported.


Onion link should now be fixed!


I'm the cunt bitching about this for the past x months: it works now, thank you :)


What's new:

I overhauled the article on "Liberalism":

Short stub about the 2014 Ukraine coup I hope to help expand:

I have been trying to keep "Israel-Gaza war" up to date but it's hopeless given how fast news is moving. In any case, my hope is that the Wiki format will enable us to create a serious alternative to Wikipedia and other disinfo.

And several other contribs by a new user. Hope to see the new pages grow.


Wat mechanisms do you have to ensure a plurality of tendencies and not fall to sectarianism the first time their is a disagreement?


TL;DR For now, policy is to have a third party judge and reconcile, and try to focus on facts and sources.

As a rule of thumb, I try to reconcile two versions into one text, usually allowing each viewpoint their own section or paragraph. Relying on quality sources, typically written by leftists, also helps to eliminate liberal viewpoints which are not encouraged on the site. While this has not actually been tested in the most extreme cases (Kronstadt, IWMA, Trotsky, Great Purge, you name it) it seems to have worked well for disputes over issues like Dengism, COVID policy and the like. Wisconcom quit the site recently after a sectarian dispute, but he was clearly in the wrong and I think the case is actually a good example of the site's fair but strict policy.
When facts are disputed, either a third party should help evaluate the sources, or the two different sources should be cited with a precise page number or website so that a casual reader can check both and draw their own conclusions. It is clearly naïve to say that all disputes of fact can be resolved in this way; this is where discussion should go to the Talk page and a compromise worked out. If both users are unhappy with the compromise, I have no issue with creating separate pages to write out disagreements, as I did in the case of Marx and his "antisemitism". Theoretical examples include "Trotskyist critiques of Stalin", "Nature of Chinese capitalism", "Confirmed Stalinist atrocities", "Personal character of Leon Trotsky" (MLs would go nuts for this one). The point is that the reader should know they are getting into something spicy.

The only users who have taken issue with this policy have been cranks. But I am open to discuss it. Do you see any potential flaws?



a potential area for original research


Any time I edit the wiki, it gets stuck infinitely loading, and then all my other browser tabs stop working too, and I have to restart my browser. This only happens with the wiki. Did something change?


reserve army of labour article has been updated with sections detailing the subject matter's treatment in volume two and volume three of capital. Also a list of synonyms have been supplied since Marx likes to use synonyms to analyze a subject from various standpoints (which can make it hard to find terms when searching).


Thank you for your explanation and clarification, anon. I just thought it was important information for potentially people being involved in the project.
I have no big potential flaws i can see, i think a willingness to [ut energy, thought and process in this is a very good thing.


Man, one of the few times I decide to use Visual Editor and it crashes and deletes everything. I'll have to try again later to update the Gaza article.


Why are we using basic citations? can we not install whatever is needed to use wikipedia-esque citations with also the auto-generation?


I'm not sure what you're talking about. The best way I know of to make citations is listed at https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/Help:Editing_Leftypedia under "Citing sources". The "Citer" tool makes citing sources ten times faster and is probably what many Wiki editors use. I am not aware of a better tool used somewhere on Wikipedia.


In the wikipedia editor citations are auto generated and in a different format to these crappy 'basic' citations that you are using.
it's hard to explain better, for an example just go to any wikipedia article, edit it and go to make an citation.


I see, you want the citation template generator to be part of the Visual Editor itself. I never edit Wikipedia so I had no idea. I'll look into getting the devs to do that, but there is a backlog of things they haven't fixed yet. To be honest, I've used the web tool with the VEditor myself and I find it probably takes less than two extra seconds to tab out, paste the link, and copy-paste the new citation. I tested a couple links with both, and the output that Wikipedia generated was almost identical to the output generated by the tool. Wikipedia also has its own page with links to various citation tools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Citation_tools
I understand this is just one more issue that gets in the way of people's editing workflow. And I do get that those add up. So, although I don't expect a response from the devs, I'll bring it up with someone anyway. In the meantime, I hope you can still edit comfortably with the fixes I suggested.


Thanks, pretty sure I have this feature on my personal install of mediawiki, so it should just be a case of downloading a extension into the folder, but i could be wrong, i'll have a look later. :)
>I hope you can still edit comfortably with the fixes I suggested.
I can, i just hope nobody gets to anal about not doing citations very detailed like i normally would on WP. :)


Oh, i think a lot of it comes from templates, here is an example of how wikipedia does it, and imho, much better because it creates a standardization rather than 'basic' citations which really vary a lot depending on who made them for obvious reasons.


Just lost a bunch of progress on the Gaza War article again. I guess I'm going to quit using Visual Editor if I want to make any major edits at all.

In any case, the article is taking shape, even if some of it is outdated


Can't you copy paste or something or make auto-saves?


If someone can tell me how to do either of those, I would be happy to do it. Copy-paste is easy with source editor, but on visual edit a copy-paste would just copy a bunch of unformatted text.


What's new:

Modern Monetary Theory getting more updates:

Someone created a Russian Empire page in Russian… I'm not sure how to deal with it, especially because there is no such page in English. The site is not intended to have multiple languages like ProleWiki, but if people are willing to contribute I don't see why not to move it to its own RU-language section.

Article on the events in Gaza still getting slowly expanded and updated, but missing a lot of key pieces to this huge event:

Started article on Zionism, with intended section on Zionism and its anti-Semitic history:

Continuing with the same topic, "public relations of Israel" includes racist rhetoric, manipulation of anti-Semitism and Jewish history, and use of international organizations like the ADL, WJC, and AIPAC:


>Someone created a Russian Empire page in Russian… I'm not sure how to deal with it, especially because there is no such page in English.
It's a copypasta from Great Soviet Encyclopedia. I wouldn't say it's particulary valuable.


Damn. Maybe it's not worth keeping then, since there already exists an English version of the GSE online… but it sucks that someone went to the trouble of formatting it here.


Our Suggestions box continues to get updated with random bits of info and suggestions for further research. Capuch1n has been regularly expanding their section on the page.


"In 2023, a student at MIT published a statistical language analysis of years of New York Times articles that showed a pervasive use of the passive voice going back to the First and Second Intifadas."

"'Fifteen years ago, as Head of the Southern Command [during the brutal Operation Cast Lead], I came close to breaking the neck of Hamas. I was stopped by the political echelon. This phenomenon will not continue. We will change reality on the ground in Gaza for the next 50 years.'"

"Kalashnikov was a self-taught engineer with little formal education who never profited from the rights to his weapons even after the capitalist counter-revolution, instead living on a modest state pension which allowed him to maintain a comfortable lifestyle. He never supported the dissolution of the Soviet Union and was a harsh critic of Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin. Kalashnikov remained until a supporter of the legacy of the USSR, socialism, and Vladimir Lenin until his death, and expressed regret that he had never gotten to meet Stalin while had been alive. He never regretted his invention and was proud of its popularity until his death."


It would be a good idea to do such summaries like this of related pages on the Zionazi-Palestine thread, and i guess similar in other threads.
Hopefully It will drive some engagement towrards the wiki.

You've probably noticed but i've tried to edit the war page where I can, mostly only posting things I can easily source with webpages, apolagies also for the sections I added and didn't do much with.
I'm pretty busy this week but will try to do more where I can. :)


I want to make a page called "Relationship between Marx and Engels" (or along those lines) that quotes the famous anecdote about the two arguing for hours about obscure points of English (German?) medieval history before coming to an agreement and being in lockstep again. Anyone got the source?

It's a good idea, but I am worried whether the article has enough up-to-date content that people haven't heard of on such a fast-moving topic. Let me know what parts you think I should quote and I will make the post.


the one where they start spooning after? yeah


Ok what does this pedia offer that ChatGPT4 cant distill for me?


Don't use bots. They get details wrong constantly.
Just in general, don't trust algorithms (written by flawed humans) to accurately reproduce texts (also written by flawed humans). Just read with your own eyeballs.
Don't care if this specific post is bait. There are people who actually believe this shit.


Arent you still just getting flawed human stuff then


does anyone have that clip of that russian dude saying comrade stalin(or was it lenin?) was too lenient?



File: 1706309340457.gif (1.26 MB, 320x240, based.gif)


aren't you guys the least bit critical of this very blatant propaganda piece that tries to portray stalin as an evil "literally hitler" "tryant"? really? is it not obvious this is just edited to make russians seem like zealots and stalin look a cult idol … when the reality is that russians know better than else that stalin had actually been a great leader but was not actually a "dictator" like radiofreeeurope might suggest … but we are on so many layers of anticommunist propaganda with RadioFreeEurope that we aren't even speaking to the WHY Russians and many other post soviets have "soviet nostaligia" and that those reasons are fundamentally material and not based on idealistic premises like this video tries to present. the Soviet Union had zero homelessness, higher life expectancy, better healthcare outcomes, everyone had the guarantee of a job, rent could not exceed a certain portion of your income, public transportation was plentiful and clean, the government would literally retrain you and reemploy you as necessary and compensate you if your job was obsoleted and replaced. Gorbachev's capitalist restoration was premised on the assumption that the soviet economy could not advance for as long as workers had the right to a job… but of course it is necessary to ask advance for whom? this was all cover for the capitalist restoration. it was smoke and mirrors and subterfuge and use of force by way of the disbanding of labor unions and the communist party, by way of ripping up the constitution and dissolving the Soviet Union illegally, etc


Uploaded an interesting propaganda image made by the US to downplay the effects of Agent Orange on civilians etc. Can anyone help translate the Vietnamese?



Dead thread but I'll give it a shot. I'll also try the SEA thread while I'm at it. Thanks


I've been away for a while, but here's some new stuff:

"The term Dark Ages in its modern usage properly refers to the relative paucity of written records and histories during the Early Middle Ages. In English history, for example, the era of Germanic colonization is a mostly unknown, or "dark", period in history; such gaps in history also occur in Byzantine records and elsewhere. This darkness is even more evident when studying the histories of Southern and Eastern European languages such as Albanian, not found in writing until 1462, and Romanian, not attested until 1521."

"Classical society reached its zenith with the Roman Empire, which brought vast expanses of modern Europe, Africa, and Asia into one polity, taking its cultural, technological, and economic forms with it. The empire spanned 5 million km2 (1.9 million mi2) at its height in 117 AD. During the third century AD, the empire entered a period of sharp economic and political crisis which ended only with the centralizing reforms of emperor Diocletian (r. 284-305). The contradictions and struggles of maintaining such a large area, compounded by the threat of tribal groups from the North and East, forced Diocletian to significantly transform the Roman imperial system, including by revolutionary new forms of military organization, a revised taxation system, and eventually, an administrative division of the Empire into East and West. In the 5th century, the Western half faced renewed crisis and eventual collapse into regional states, while the Eastern Empire continued to exist for centuries."

"'And while professors thus disagree, the ideas that there is a necessary conflict between capital and labor, that machinery is an evil, that competition must be restrained and interest abolished, that wealth may be created by the issue of money, that it is the duty of government to furnish capital or to furnish work, are rapidly making way among the great body of the people, who keenly feel a hurt and are sharply conscious of a wrong. Such ideas, which bring great masses of men, the repositories of ultimate political power, under the leadership of charlatans and demagogues, are fraught with danger….'"

I'm aware of the glaring lack of current events. History is happening so fast right now WRT the Middle East that I haven't even been tried to keep up with it. I'm not sure what to prioritize but in any case the site is always open to people who want to add little sources, facts, arguments that need more coverage.

Also: we have a real spam filter now. Upside is that we won't get raided; downside is that new edits will not show up immediately. Hit me up with any questions or concerns.


I need input on where to take "Views of Karl Marx on Jews". I only created it as somewhere for Jack Barn (no longer very active) to put his whining (see >>1634270), but he never took me up on it. I had hoped it could become a page for acknowledging the attacks on Marx with a balanced discussion - an inoculation, if you like.

Should it be (a) turned into a large quote mine, (b) written as a discussion in paragraph form with citations (i.e. "he also made some statements about Lassalle[2][3][4][5][6][7][8]")… or simply deleted?


>I need input on where to take "Views of Karl Marx on Jews"
to the trash


I don't think so. Marx being antisemitic is a common smear and having a page of ready sources to debunk that wouldn't hurt.


File: 1709033359117.png (116.79 KB, 1200x630, ClipboardImage.png)

But your article didn't debunk anything. I think the only way you could do that would be to get the specific quotes people consider antissemtic and then refute those specifically.


nta but what is there to refute? those quotes (like the one you posted) are fake, marx never wrote that


File: 1709056498749.pdf (15.09 MB, 182x255, marx-eastern.pdf)

Page 600 idiot.


waiting from the pivot from "Marx never wrote that" to "actually it's based and correct."


>an apocryphal letter


An article he published in a newspaper you illiterate retard later compiled into that book by his daughter.


I'm open to alternative explanations tho. Let's keep working through the rationalizations.

So we've already determined that:
A. It was not a letter but a news article
B. His daughter has ascribed it to him

What is our next rationalization? She was just mistaken?


>your article
I wrote the entire article, not that anon.
>the only way you could do that would be to get the specific quotes people consider antissemtic and then refute those specifically
Exactly, that was one of the options I offered here >>1765859 namely:
<(a) turned into a large quote mine
Your description could also apply to (b), where it would be basically the same but boiled down (and with all quotes exhaustively cited, but in the footnotes only). The choice I am offering is between a long tedious article, a short paraphrasing article, or no article.

I do not care if you decide to portray him as based or cringe but I at least want a space for people to argue against the unoriginal right-wing spam, as >>1771973 says


>But your article didn't debunk anything.
It's not my article, I just think there should be one.



Wiki is in the process of being upgraded (or something, I'm not /stem/) Edits may not be working for the time being


Leftypol-LLM-GPT, give me a leftypedia article about this person and all their spooky connections, drawing from the every known text, audio and video source.
Leftypol-dumbGPT/algorithm, check the veracity of the article your sibling just wrote.
Is that how this shit works?


This is a weird post but anyway I made some starter pages for you:

"A member of the notorious Kagan family, Nuland has played a role in neoconservative imperialist US foreign policy since at least the 1990s."

"Members of the family have had a tremendous influence on neoconservative thought and US foreign policy since the turn of the century, including through the Project for the New American Century, an instrumental group influencing the imperialist program of the George W. Bush administration; advocating for the Iraq War troop surge of 2007; sustaining US involvement in Afghanistan; supporting US intervention in Syria and Ukraine under Obama, as well as the successful government overthrow of the latter; and continued weapons shipments to Ukraine."

good luck getting a GPT to write anything but glowie shit


What happened to the reading general?


>I made some starter pages for you:
You're a gem anon, appreciate the reply.
>This is a weird post
I was kind of talking about the idea of having several different discrete GPT/AI/LLM/Algorithms/whatever checking each others work when completing a task like writing wiki entries. Instead of having one entity like chatGPT in the cloud doing all the work, separate and discrete local and cloud programs would search, sort, assign weight, check veracity, and then a separate language model would write the wiki article. It seems safer than allowing one glowing cloud black box to do all the tasks. Someone in the other thread mentioned the leftypedia so I posted here, kind of realizing later that its off topic for you.
>good luck getting a GPT to write anything but glowie shit
For sure. It seems like the only trustworthy AI is something local that you've trained yourself.


Why not contribute to ProleWiki?


So if the only source I can find for a data point is audio, like a 45 min lecture, is it possible to upload it to a specific page after converting to ogg or whatever?


Yep, should work! OGG, MP3, probably others too. See if it works for ya:
I will add that YouTube embeds are also a newly restored feature that, I'm told, should be easy to use.


File: 1712436196083.png (392.97 KB, 1209x1239, ClipboardImage.png)

RedParabola is a new user who's been making great contributions to the site's general look, including the front page and the Vector skin itself, as well as finally implementing a Featured Page functionality. We hope to keep customizing the way the site works and looks and are open to feedback. Thanks also to the Devs for their help in making this possible


Thanks mate, we appreciate the work


File: 1715218563769.png (3.65 MB, 1471x1789, ClipboardImage.png)

Hello folks, I was hoping someone could give me some decent literature on the Babiy Yar massacre in English, I wish to send it to a friend for them to study. It's hard to find anything non-Russian on the subject that doesn't insert anti-communist drivel into it and unfortunately, unlike myself, she cannot read Russian. Help a comrade out.

Unique IPs: 87

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