/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2267012
Nope. If history = everything then, progress of history = progress of everything. Still a progress

>>2267014
sure, but progress is opposed to regress, so where can regress be possible in unconditional progress?

>>2267018
Idk, im not a philosopher

>>2267021
well its just logic. opposites (positives and negatives) must be able to define each other. if i make a judgement that something is good, by the same discrimination, something must be evil. but even within a tautology, or self-identity (A=A), there are varying quantities of the same quality. thus, to speak of "more" or "less" progress is to necessitate what progress is and how it can be quantified. what is "more" progressive? communism or fascism? everyone says communism, but how do they qualify that statement. my contention is that progress is associated with goodness, therefore to many people, they become synonyms, so thats how it becomes defined. progress = good. regress = evil.

>>2267031
Start a separate thread

Is leftypol a treat? Are we all treatlers here?

>>2267053
Doesnt feel like it.

1.
2. What is considered "petit-bourgeois" and what isn't?
3. What is the difference between a Vanguard Party and an authoritarianship? Is it supposed to be dissolved once a state achieves socialism/communism, and if so what will the preceding government be?
4. What are fundamental differences in education of an functional AES in comparison to education within bourgeois systems? Is the curriculum more harder and extensive or is it dumbed down?
5. Besides food security and democratic participation, what do you feel are particular significant aspects of the Soviet Union that was omitted by Western education about them?
6. What do you or what does the site feel about imperialism? What line does a country need to cross regarding it's foreign policy to be considered imperialist?
7. What do you feel about Soviet collectivization? Was it wrong conceptually, could it be improved or were they right?

I understand it's not perfect. But I would much rather contribute to their economy than my own. Fuck Screamingeaglesland.

What do I need to do?

>>2266796
>since you are saying it has to happen
well it does, but in the sense thats just cause and effects on a large scale (aka historical materialism).

>justify everything
its not justification, its recognizing a process at work

>how do you determine what is "more" or "less" progressive between two historical tendencies
the one that solve the contradictions of the present historical conditions and move toward a new situation more adapted to the newer system of social production faster than the other. Bourgeois revolution were progressive because they allowed for the new mode of production (capitalism) to develop faster than under the old feudal relation, because they gave the political power to the people who now controlled an increasingly larger part of the total social production (bourgeois), resolving the contradiction between their weak political power and strong economic power (and the inverse for nobles). Which is why monarchic restorations were regressive, because they delayed the inevitable ("necessary") evolution of the superstructure following the new basis of production
Communists see socialism as similarly resolving the contradictions of capitalism, with its tendency toward monopolization and consolidation into larger firms eventually stifling further development on one hand, and the periodic crisis giving opportunity for the exploited masses to seize control of the means of productions and move toward communism, hence "progress" is now clearly a desirable thing. Which is why "progressive" is often associated with "good".
There is also the idea of "advancement of history" where the increase in technology and productive force gives opportunity for more freedom from material constraints and a better social reality for most (which I feel is more debatable, and is more the liberal conception of historical progress)

In school, they teach you "ABC". However, I think they should have instead taught us "IRS"

>>2267608
>well it does
slavery must happen? theres no other way?
>its not justification
it is, because you are saying that its inevitable, therefore its better for it to happen now than later. the justification of historical slavery by marxists is based in this teleological determinism. if instead we said that its unnecessary, it has no justification.
>the one that solve the contradictions of the present historical conditions and move toward a new situation
right, so progress is "change", but as i say, why does change mean a change for the better? what is the value of "progress" if it only makes things worse?
>Communists see socialism as similarly resolving the contradictions of capitalism
so why has it failed where it has been tried?
>"progress" is now clearly a desirable thing. Which is why "progressive" is often associated with "good".
but how do you quantify the incriments of progress? all you are doing is making "progress" synonymous with goodness for rhetorics sake, not as a true inquiry. if progress is change, nuclear war is surely more "progressive" than communism, and progress in this way is absolutely undesirable.
>technology brings more freedom
both marx and j.s. mill see that "labour-saving devices" actually make us more enslaved to labour. where is the freedom? we work longer today than serfs ever did.

>>2267632
My school taught me bofa

>>2266794
>This is why instead of "progress" and "change" we often see Marxists talk about what is "historically necessary." Historically necessary means something very specific. It doesn't mean "good." For example Stalin said slavery was historically necessary to pull humans out of primitive communism:
You can only say something was historically necessary in retrospect, and only in that it's necessary to produce the present as it is. It's essentially the same logic as the meme about time traveling and moving a chair that causes the present to become radically different. The point is that the specifics of a given time are what determines the future afterward. It does not mean that there's a correct thing that must happen. It's the same issue of being tautological and sterile, because everything that happened in the past was historically necessary to produce the present that we have. It has no predictive power as an "is" nor instructive power as an "ought."

>>2268293
yet somehow communism is predestined…

I don't agree with immigration policies for the west or think immigration can end well under capitalism if Asians and Indians are killed in Africa too, but the soc dems globally walking back on being pro migration and trying to out chud rightoids is a giant red flag that these people could never be trusted to hold a serious belief in economic policies either.

>>2268303
bro is fighting for votes he'll never get

Is the Holodomor generally accepted to be a thing that occurred here?

>>2268615
Depends on what you mean by "Holodomor", and "occured" and even then its probably split 30-70 right down the middle.

>>2268615
Its believed that a famine happened but not not a targeted one.

>>2268615
the famine, yes. the holodomor genocide is not accepted to be a thing anywhere. the academia largely rejects it, with only fringes still supporting it today. nazis are obsessed with it for some reason.

>>2268678
Its because its alliterative to Holocaust and makes their enemies looks at least as bad as they do.

>>2268615
Not really as famine was widespread across USSR instead of some kind of targeted ethnic genocide.

How come governments police to protests ?
Like genuinly whats the point why do they just not let it happen and avoid police violence

>>2184368
Alunya was made 2015ish, I think.

Italian Left Communists are opposed to national liberation movements on the basis that they believe they believe national liberation conflicts are bourgeois revolutions that lead to the development of chauvinistic, right wing nationalism, and also on the basis that they believe it splits the working class into factions for and against the national liberation struggle, when there needs to be a united working class focused on the need for a class war, a proletariat revolution instead.

With that said, what do they believe in regards to the Israel - Palestine conflict? In regards to the ongoing genocide? Because I haven't heard a single on of them speak up about it.
Maybe I've just missed it somehow, but do left coms actually support the liberation of Palestine? In what sense? Or what do they propose in place of it?

>>2267893
>slavery must happen? theres no other way?
it certainly seems so, given so many different human societies everywhere had them. The social reality of early agricultural production seem to lead everyone to slave societies.

>because you are saying that its inevitable, therefore its better for it to happen now than later
thats your judgement, saying it is an inevitable stage of social development (and only for agricultural societies, some human communities stayed hunter gatherers and didnt need slaves, but when agriculture is developed then those agricultural societies eventually take over) is not the same as saying it is better now than later, thats your morale speaking, and morality isnt an objective fact

>right, so progress is "change"
explicitly not, and I even provided you with a counter example with a regression. Similarly, USSR falling and those place going back to capitalism is also a regression.

>the value of "progress"
its not about its "value", its a reality of a historical process, a chemical reaction naturally "progress" but it has no inherent "value"
why we associate progress with good is because communist think for most life would be better under communism than capitalism, hence why progressing beyond capitalism is seen as valuable, but you can make the argument that progressing toward agricultural society at all was disastrous. The thing is it is too late for going back, its not how history of human societies work.

>so why has it failed
by many metrics it hasnt failed at all, what with creating superpowers from feudal shitholes, lifting millions out poverty and ignorance, carrying out massive industrialization, ending colonialism, but the conditions were apparently not good enough yet for the success to last. First french republic was also destroyed at first.
But just compare india and china today to see how effective and successful the communist model still is.

>all you are doing is making "progress" synonymous with goodness for rhetorics sake, not as a true inquiry.
not at all, its not just rhetoric, I sincerely believe implementing socialism would be for the benefit of the vast majority, and thus that all progress towards it is good.

>if progress is change
already addressed, thats just your strawman

>where is the freedom
I agree and thats why I called it a liberal idealist view. But technology certainly has the potential to improve lives (and in some case, like medicine, objectively does improve lives already), its just even more dependent on social progress and organization (hence why we pursue communism)

>we work longer today than serfs ever did
to be fair, farm work was also back breaking, and their food was kinda shit and not very varied, and they were even more at the mercy of their master. But yes, capitalist society still suck.

>>2268615
no

>>2268823
to discourage protesters, challenge their resolve, train their security forces, and accuse them of violence themselves, and also allow arrests and prosecutions

>>2269731
>they believe national liberation conflicts are bourgeois revolutions
yes they mostly are (although many also had strong socialist elements), but this is still usually a net improvement for the people

>lead to the development of chauvinistic, right wing nationalism
theyd rather have a bunch of explicit comprador doing the bidding of their colonial masters?

>it splits the working class into factions for and against the national liberation struggle
sounds retarded, nothing is as uniting politically as national liberation struggles

>there needs to be a united working class focused on the need for a class war, a proletariat revolution
trying to get this without doing national liberation when its also needed is doomed to failure. You need to sell both.

cant speak for italians leftcoms, but most communist would agree national liberation is a needed first step

Good books that show the reality of living under communism? I mean non fiction books that show how was life under communism, without much moral judgment, just straight facts.

>>2270169
>slavery must happen
have you considered that slavery is often imposed on people without an internal system developing of its own accord? prisoners of war are often made slaves.
>i provided examples of regression
where?
>progress is a determined fact of things
so how do you explain regress?
>socialism never failed
sure, its achievements were bringing capitalism to russia and china
>the communist model still is
so china is communist? how?

>>2270169
You raise a good point. Most Italian LeftComs oppose national liberation on the basis that it's a type of bourgeois revolution, but they ignore even a bourgeois revolution can lead to greatly improved conditions, and they ignore that many national liberation movements are left wing or socialist to a degree even of not full on communists.
It's like they're unable of comprehending that you can have both national liberation and class struggle simultaneously, they think it's a one or the other choose which is a false dichotomy.

Piracy is leftist, yes?

>>2270946
i dont see how it has political content
ethically however, you can make the case

>>2270946
>I’m a leftist
>I pirate
piracy is leftist, yes

How can self employed workers be petit porkies when they dont exploit anyones labor? They get 100% of the surplus value themselves.

>>2271016
if they make profit, they exploit their own labour

how does this work?

>>2271229
what do you think would happen if a third world country, geographically close to india and the strait of malacca, tied to the BRI, declared a proletarian dictatorship?

>>2271242
So what they're just not allowed to be socialist?

>>2271242
So the coward theory vs actually just socdems theory. A lil bit of both really.

What happened to the Cockshott AMA, did he pussy out? I wanted to ask him if he'd fuck Buck Angel or Bailey Jay

>>2276629
You missed it
>>2276372

I tried reading theory, and some of it is fine, but some authors like to show off using lots of big fancy words for the hell of it, and complex terminology that makes me confused and also hurts my tiny little head.
How do I get smarter so I can read advanced, complex theory? Without feeling like i'm developing a migraine / seizure / falling asleep 3 pages deep?
Is there some kind of exercise I can do to increase my intellectual capacity?

>>2276729
use dictionaries. every time you want to get very-well versed in a topic, to the point of their respective professionals, without having a degree, pick dictionaries for such fields.
philosophy isn't that complicated when you get to know the words.
also, put the books in their historical context: Who are they addressing, what event are they addressing; that also works.

are salesmen, who make some base salary but also earn a commission per sale, proletarian? should salesmen unionize?

>>2276960
gonna repost those in the PDF thread if they aren't already there, thanks

Is market socialism a good idea and it is compatiable with communism?

>>2280683
Lenin himself created it so its in line with Marxism-Leninism.

I remember reading about an african revolutionary that got killed by southafrican mercs in a movie like scene, of finding him with pot in the attempted coup. Can't remember who it was.