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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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This thread is for the discussion of cybercommunism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and creators. Drama belongs in /isg/

Reading
Towards a New Socialism by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
Brain of the Firm by Stafford Beer
Cybernetic Revolutionaries by Eden Medina
Cybernetics: Or the Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine and The Human Use of Human Beings (1st edition) by Norbert Wiener
Economic cybernetics by Nikolay Veduta
People's Republic of Walmart by Leigh Phillips and Michal Rozworski
Red Plenty by Francis Spufford
Economics in kind, Total socialisation and A system of socialisation by Otto Neurath (Incommensurability, Ecology, and Planning: Neurath in the Socialist Calculation Debate by Thomas Uebel provides a summary)

Active writers/creators sorted by last name

>Paul Cockshott

https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ)
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/
https://twitter.com/PaulCockshott (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/PaulCockshott)
>Cibcom (Spanish)
https://cibcom.org/
https://twitter.com/cibcomorg (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/cibcomorg)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA)
>Tomas Härdin
https://www.haerdin.se/tag/cybernetics.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w)

Podcasts
>General Intellect Unit
Podcast of the Cybernetic Marxists
http://generalintellectunit.net/

Previous threads in chronological order
https://archive.is/uNCEY
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
https://archive.ph/uyggp
https://archive.is/xBFYY
https://archive.ph/Afx5a
https://archive.is/kAPvR
https://archive.is/0sAS2
https://archive.is/jXivP
https://archive.is/Lx8TF
179 posts and 33 image replies omitted.

Brandon Lee responding to the Jacglowbin article on planning

>>2841343
thanks

>>2839910
39 minutes in, Leone Castar says he looks for collaborators do develop a chapter how a postcapitalist judiciary would work. Well, I don’t use Discord or Zoom and I prefer to remain anonymous, so I will just drop my answer in this thread.

JURY SYSTEM

To get inspiration, we start with a brief look at a very simple analytical model: There is a group of people trying to answer some question about reality by voting between two options, one true and one false. Each person in the group got more intelligence than zero, so their chance of picking the right option from the two is a bit better than 50 %. Assume the same percentage for each person, with no particular correlation between people. That’s the model. What follows from this? Three things:
  1. The banal thing: The best approach to finding the truth here is to just go with the option that gets more votes, not requiring a super-majority or people voting for representatives who then vote.
  2. The beautiful thing: We can get arbitrarily close to being correct 100 % of the time if the group is big enough. These two conclusions are known as Condorcet’s Jury theorem.
  3. A tricky detail: If you have a group size that is odd and you just add one person, the probability that the group gets the right decision just stays where it is. So the group size should be odd.

When it comes to punishment, I’m thinking of something a bit more complicated than just two options. I think the topic fits into a one-dimensional spatial model. I think such a model fits because we can think of prison time as a quantity shown on a line, and everybody agrees what more or less means here. This agreement is necessary, but not sufficient for a really good fit. It is also necessary that people see themselves as standing on a point on that line. A counter-example: A parliament discusses different proposals for military spending and there might be consensus on how to order these plans from small to big, but the politicians may not all see themselves as standing on one point on that line, but rather with each foot on one end. On that issue, one may be of the opinion: “Go big or go home.”

The punishment in a criminal case is to be decided not by a judge, but by the interplay of a sortition-selected jury and laws from a sortition-selected legislature.

Each jury member expresses where they individually stand on the line. For the aggregated jury voice we take not the arithmetic mean, but the median. That is, we order the ballots on a line from smallest to biggest stated punishment, and then we walk over the ballots. When we have just walked over half the ballots, we stop, and we have the answer at our feet. A jury majority wants no bigger punishment and a jury majority wants no smaller punishment.

(By the way, there have been some estimation contests, like guessing the weight of an ox or the amount of marbles in a jar, and the median has usually been the more accurate estimate than the arithmetic mean. Francis Galton wrote about this.)

Picture yourself as a jury member who believes to know better than the others what the proper size of punishment should be. If the arithmetic mean were taken as the aggregated jury voice, you would have an incentive to estimate the votes of the others and then to strategically exaggerate your difference on your ballot to get a result closer to your ideal. Not so with the median. (Aside: If the number of voters were even, there would be the need for an extra rule to deal the two middle votes in order to avoid exaggeration incentive, like flipping a coin or always taking the lower one.)

When the legislature designs a law describing some kind of wrongdoing, the people in the legislature vote with two ballots, one for the recommended minimum sentencing and one for the possible maximum sentencing. We don’t want that the legislature can easily turn the juries into a powerless appendix, so we use super-majorities here. We saw with Condorcet’s Jury theorem that the majority has a special meaning. Requirements for super-majorities usually seem rather arbitrary, but here we use something meaningful. We order the ballots for the minimum recommendation, and walk from the end with the biggest stated value towards the other end, stopping once we have passed over ¾ of the votes. Likewise the other way around: We order ballots for the possible maximum sentencing and walk from the smallest stated value towards the other end, stopping once we have passed over ¾. These super-majorities of over ¾ have their basis in protecting an “ordinary” majority: Doing the two counts this way, over half the people voting will see both their voted values included within the two aggregated values.

For either act of voting in the legislature a voter not stating a value that is equal to the aggregate answer will either land on the lower-value or the higher-value side; and when we counter-factually assume a scenario of that voter voting with a ballot exaggerating the difference to the aggregate result, we can easily see that such behavior would not have changed the aggregate result, just like with the jury’s median aggregate.

What punishment does the defendant receive in the end: The jury cannot make a harsher sentence real than the possible maximum set by the legislature, but the jury can always make real something below the minimum recommendation of the legislature, even zero punishment.

The issue of the received punishment is not quite identical to what the jury can express: The jury can always express a wish for a harsher sentence than the maximum set by the legislature, even though the actual punishment gets capped at that maximum. This is valuable feedback for the legislature to re-evaluate things. If the jury’s aggregate voice going out of bounds happens often enough with a particular type of wrongdoing, the update of the recommended minimum and possible maximum could even be automatic. (But an increased maximum cap for a particular type of wrongdoing should not be used to retroactively increase sentencing.)

Is the question of punishment really always about an amount of an obvious “punishment substance” expressed as cardinal data though? Why is it that a one-dimensional and highly abstract approach to punishment was so obvious to me in the beginning of writing this? Perhaps it is because I am living in capitalist society where almost anything is measured in a one-dimensional abstract way. Perhaps a new society with more focus on concrete use-values will also react to the many different ways of wrongdoing with many different concrete approaches, and more focus on what offenders should do for their victims. An intriguing thought.

The voting procedures that use scales can actually handle combinations of different types of punishment if these are expressed as a ranking of punishment bundles, with a bigger bundle compared to a smaller bundle always containing it as a strict subset. But people on a jury might come up with rather diverse ideas that don’t fit into an obvious ranking.

How about this: In addition to using the scale procedure described in this essay, a jury dealing with a concrete case can also discuss alternative ways and vote with an approval ballot for these. Any alternative proposal that gains approval by a majority of jury members is then submitted to the defendant together with the scale procedure’s result. The defendant chooses.

And with that addition we will also have more feedback data and a really self-critical system.

>>2845941
you should email your thoughts to him, since I don't think he's aware of the threads
I thought "wall of text"-anon was Leone since it's kind of his posting style but your post directly contradicts this

new cock
>On uniting the left
<Why is the left so split, and are the splits of any contemporary relevance?

>>2566230
oh nonononono ultras won…

How the fuck is the latest video generating zero discourse ITT?
Have I missed the exodus?? Where'd y'all go?!?

>>2865251
I'm not part of this club per se since this thread moves too slowly but I popped in because Google fed me that video.

The answer to your question has nothing to do with the video. Frankly I think cybercommunism is too hopeful for /leftypol/because technology may be on the cusp of enabling it to actually happen. It's easier to just ignore it and doompost about how everything will only get worse and why bother trying. This place is full of grumbling, seething Cold Warriors who refuse to move on.

>>2865251
kinda feels like nothing is happening in the sphere

Eric Meier interview
>Thinking about planning with INDEP

>>2865688
as opposed to… where? what are you even saying? did you even see the damn video?


New video, follow-up:
>Reply to comments on Unity
https://youtu.be/NsDKvsTfyj0

File: 1784202106014-6.png (291.53 KB, 1112x1916, cockshott harry.png)

>>2867597
>9:34
uh oh does Dickblast have a loicense for expressing support for Palestine Action?
also that facial expression

File: 1784379920241-0.png (69.05 KB, 1771x298, ClipboardImage.png)



someone ITT with a yt acc for the love of labor link it to him:
>>2869663
>>2869669

>>2867124
<Socialist Planning in the Era of Climate Change
<David Zachariah and Tomas Härdin

Two questions which may look a bit self-contradictory:
Page 12:
<For final orders, the shadow price per GWh of electrical power supply is the additional amount of worker-hours required to increase the order by one unit.
What's a unit? When not talking about an object like a bicycle, how a unit is set can be quite arbitrary. Best examples for this arbitrariness are water and electricity… which are exactly the examples the authors use! Wouldn't it make more sense to set the unit in a way related to what we are trying to do, like 1 % of the plan-target quantity of the thing in question?
Page 13
<…the resource constraints for the final demand are rebalanced, such that the sum of percentage deviations from the goals (10 GWh, 30 kilotonnes, and so on) is minimized.
What about goal similarity? Shouldn't similar goals be grouped together and treated together as potentially compensating for each other's shortcomings to a stronger degree than with dissimilar goals?

And another thing, page 15
<…when there is only a single cement or insulin producer. If left unchecked, such an enterprise could squander labor and hoard resources. It is therefore advisable to assign the sectoral investment boards the task of investing in parallel capacities for cement or insulin production
Very unimaginative to propose dealing with the social issue of concentration of power with the technical approach of building up parallel capacities. As if that wasn't squandering labor when there are regulation tools available. Let's analytically separate people and machinery of an enterprise: If the issue is that a group of people gains power through being tiny, look for ways to reduce that power. If we can significantly expand the group of people skilled for these tasks without building up facilities elsewhere, we can just do that. The group already working there doesn't have the monopoly on who else gets hired there, I would hope. We can set higher transparency standards. More inspections. And also: Look into MAP (Market Anti-Inflation Plan) by David Colander and Abba Lerner, a proposal to treat price-raising as pollution and to implement trading pollution permits for that.

(Nitpick: I think it's a mistake to engage at all, however critically, with Ackerman, Grünberg, Sunkara. These are all very stupid people. I also have no use for Hickel and his bizarre quasi-physical metrics to "measure" third-world exploitation.)

Every economy is already solving the distribution problem without needing a big red computer

The problem has always been political organization and class struggle, not calculation

Theredore cybernetics is pointless and is nothing but a tech-fetish.

QED

>>2870401
every modern economical apparatus use computers what is this ragebait

>>2566230
If he really believes in it then he can start giving away his money for charity and stuff like that.

No? Oh, mmkay.

File: 1784453297050-0.png (36.37 KB, 625x626, 1390094314381.png)


>>2870122
>What's a unit?
it says GWh right there. it probably doesn't matter what units are used. 1000 hours per GWh = 1 hour per MWh

>>2869702
I tried replying but it's not showing up when I refresh

>>2870410
Yeah, it means there's no cybernetics "problem", it's just excel. Nobody needs " cyberneticists" or "implementing cybernetics"

Economic planning is a solved problem and the task of socialism is not to simulate the law of value on a computer

>>2870401
>Every economy is already solving the distribution problem
What planet are you from fellow leftychud?

>>2870969
Every economy is already planned top down, this isn't the gilded age

It's funny how people will bring this up as an argument for the viability of central planning not realizing it means that "cybernetics" as a field is already pointless.

It's just a fantasy of delegating politics and class struggle to computers

>>2870945
>Economic planning is a solved problem and the task of socialism is not to simulate the law of value on a computer
have you ready any actual theory? because if you did you'd know the law of values becomes more important after the seizure of power, not less. you cannot value aufheben without grasping it firmly first. you may believe it is possible, but that you have only grasped the issue loosely, and not firmly
>>2870991
you can't "delegate" things to computers. computers are not political subjects

>>2870544
>it says GWh right there.

That post wasn't asking what's the unit:
>What's a unit? When not talking about an object like a bicycle, how a unit is set can be quite arbitrary. Best examples for this arbitrariness are water and electricity… which are exactly the examples the authors use! Wouldn't it make more sense to set the unit in a way related to what we are trying to do, like 1 % of the plan-target quantity of the thing in question?

>>2870945
>Economic planning is a solved problem
I would imagine most CS students have heard of the Traveling-Salesman problem and the Knapsack problem. I know of no solution guarantees for bigger instances of these because of combinatorial explosion, only heuristics. These problems are of course only two of the sub-problems of logistics. So if you want to show how you do precise planning you actually have to solve a network of combinatorial explosions linked to other combinatorial explosions, and each link is a multiplier. Do you want to show us how you do that?

Research on approximate solutions is ongoing.


>>2871619
can you express what you mean in terms of a linear program?
in LP, shadow prices are always in terms of small changes in the constraints. if you want to make a large change, which 1% is, then you need to re-solve the program

>>2871633
I'm not reading all that shit. but I did a quick search on "plann" and surprise surprise it repeats Cold War lies about planning

>>2871654
Literally where

>>2871619
There exist efficient fast heuristic algos for the traveling salesman
Already employed in all relevant fields

If you mean solving an np hard problem mathematically, then quit larping, you won't be overcominh the foundations of modern math and computation lil bro

>>2871659
every single mention of planning

>>2871769
A majority of them are talking about fucking capitalist corporations retard so you dont know what you are fucking talking about

This thread is pointless because in a few years AI will get good enough to just run society in general, and from there it's not far to AGI

File: 1784658282627-0.jpg (172.76 KB, 600x569, jenny costanza.jpg)

>>2871930
>This thread is pointless because in a few years AI will get good enough to just run society in general, and from there it's not far to AGI

>>2871619
>I know of no solution guarantees for bigger instances of these because of combinatorial explosion, only heuristics.
>Research on approximate solutions is ongoing.
>>2871661
>There exist efficient fast heuristic algos
>If you mean solving an np hard problem mathematically, then quit larping
Why are half the comments here by people who can't read (or is it all the same guy)?

>>2873946
Do you think the problem with all hitherto economies, including socialist ones, was that there were not even fasterer traveling salesman algorithms?

>>2867864
he said a few threads ago he got some kind of surgery that affected his ability to speak. dude is getting old. it is not fun to be that age. basically your mind starts going and life is one long doctors appointment

>>2870401

"Cybernetics is the science of effective organization " Stafford Beer

>Confront Cantor
also Cockshott revealing perhaps a bit too much about his nonverbal autistic son

>Follow up on Cantor

Childhood is beliving in planning, adulthood is embracing the market.

What I meant by market is a market socialist one, not capitalistic one.

>>2878324
get better bait

>>2878380
When you get older, kid, you will realize that planning is (and was) a failure, and the market (although imperfect) is far better for society.

Since Cockshott thinks that Althusser's ideas have become mystified in the anglosphere due to poor translations, are there any modern, better translations of him? I know Cock does not think highly of Althusser but given that he has felt the need to single him out, it makes me think that maybe there is something to it. He seems to have had an influence on Cockshott's conception of HistMat atleast.

Also whats the relation of Guattari and Deleuze to cybernetics? Is there anything worthwhile to be gained from reading them?

>>2882173
>I know Cock does not think highly of Althusser
How so? I thought he agreed with him on the whole epistemological break thing.

>Second Webinar of “Reviving Central Planning – A Global South Perspective” Series uploaded
https://www.indep.network/second-webinar-of-reviving-central-planning-a-global-south-perspective-series-uploaded/


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