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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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This thread is for the discussion of cybercommunism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and creators. Drama belongs in /isg/

Reading
Towards a New Socialism by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
Brain of the Firm by Stafford Beer
Cybernetic Revolutionaries by Eden Medina
Cybernetics: Or the Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine and The Human Use of Human Beings (1st edition) by Norbert Wiener
Economic cybernetics by Nikolay Veduta
People's Republic of Walmart by Leigh Phillips and Michal Rozworski
Red Plenty by Francis Spufford
Economics in kind, Total socialisation and A system of socialisation by Otto Neurath (Incommensurability, Ecology, and Planning: Neurath in the Socialist Calculation Debate by Thomas Uebel provides a summary)

Active writers/creators sorted by last name

>Paul Cockshott

https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ)
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/
https://twitter.com/PaulCockshott (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/PaulCockshott)
>Cibcom (Spanish)
https://cibcom.org/
https://twitter.com/cibcomorg (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/cibcomorg)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA)
>Tomas Härdin
https://www.haerdin.se/tag/cybernetics.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w)

Podcasts
>General Intellect Unit
Podcast of the Cybernetic Marxists
http://generalintellectunit.net/

Previous threads in chronological order
https://archive.is/uNCEY
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
https://archive.ph/uyggp
https://archive.is/xBFYY
https://archive.ph/Afx5a
https://archive.is/kAPvR
https://archive.is/0sAS2
https://archive.is/jXivP
https://archive.is/Lx8TF
132 posts and 28 image replies omitted.

>>2811640 (me)
*too high

>>2811640
You are the one who is bestricken. Democratic Centralism is not Democracy. Recall is good. There is no such thing as bourgeois democracy. The people will vote to recall selected citizens they don't want to serve. Randomly selected citizens who have a stake in management decisions will serve to make those decisions. Voting by phone will not be a high bureaucratic hurdle. Random selection is progressive because it moves to eliminate the class distinction between managers of systems and those affected by them. Recall is progressive because it gives those affected by management decisions a collective veto over randomly selected citizens.

>>2811897
how to stop The People (tm) from collectively deciding to dissolve random selection and recall out of spite and laziness?

>>2811902
Epsteinite talk.

>>2789841
I have trouble following the Manhattan thing he talks about. Anyone have some insight into this?

The "logic" of the last couple posts:
<Hey guys, what if we first draft two people by lottery and then select one of them?"
>Bourgeois, reactionary, you are basically Epstein for thinking this.
<Hey guys, what if we first draft two people by lottery and then deselect one of them?"
>Based, revolutionary, you are the dialectical Einstein.

>>2811934
Look at a square grid on paper. Think of the lines as streets. Mark a point at one crossing roughly in the middle of the paper. Go a couple blocks North, a couple blocks East, and mark another crossing. Let's pretend the world is flat, then: Euclidean distance = air distance = the shortest line connecting the two points. Manhattan distance means following the streets.

If we move 3 units North, 4 units East, then the Length of the trip is…
…for a bird: N² + E² = L²
3² + 4² = 25
L = 5
…on foot: N + E = L
3 + 4 = 7
L = 7

Think of using all of a given budget for obtaining various quantities of two commodities, X and Y. You can graph all the possibilities on paper. A bundle gets a point with an x-coordinate representing the amount of commodity X in that bundle and the y-coordinate representing the amount of commodity Y in that bundle. One extreme would be spending all on X, the other extreme would be spending all on Y. All the other possible spending-all-the-money bundles lie on the straight line connecting the two points.

Look at the origin of the graph (where x and y are = 0). The bundles we are thinking about are equal in money terms, but have different air distance from the origin. So this equality is not captured by Euclidean geometry.

>>2811934
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicab_geometry
It's a heuristic method. You can ask AI about these things, it's pretty good when it comes to explaining mathematical concepts and why they work to predict outcomes.

>>2812787
Thank you for your acknowledgement, but I have a sense that you still don't fully understand. Election is an aristocratic function and recall is a democratic function.
From Cockshott:
>It was quite clear from classical political theory that election was an oligarchic or aristocratic principle. It involved the deliberate selection of the 'best' people, the aristoi, to high office. And who are our 'betters' but the upper classes, the more educated, the more wealthy, etc. Any system of election is inherently biased against the lower classes and favours the upper classes. Elections are inherently oligarchic and elitist.

>Let's look at the principle of recall… it is mainly of use in dealing with manifest incompetence or corruption. Individuals who are manifestly incompetent or corrupt can be replaced. The reason why it is of limited use is that in order to effect the right of recall you actually need to get an awful lot of signatures [votes…] That may be worthwhile, it may be of some advantage, but my contention is that wherever this exists it doesn't radically change the class character of the political system. It's mainly a control on corruption.

>>2812796
>Election is an aristocratic function and recall is a democratic function.
The quoted snippets merely say that recall does not fix elections and do not praise recall to high heavens. Elections and recall are both methods of sorting people into the deserving and undeserving. Recall is a type of election.

My actual position is that the qualities of election methods are dependent on scale in such an extreme way that it feels kinda fraudulent to even use the same names. One may write two texts to describe two election methods, one to be used by eleven people to choose one among them and another to be used by eleven million people, and one may choose to make these texts identical except for a few numbers. One may then use the same name for the methods (that's what everybody is doing and isn't that intuitive?), but the two very different scales will work out in very different ways.

At a small scale, elections work out okay-ish or better (there are some interesting alternative voting methods); at big scale elections are horrendous. With sortition it's the opposite. Imagine filling a single position instead of a committee… And this is why you are jumping at the opportunity to add some electastic sauce to sortition, doing this in the form of a recall mechanism. Understandable, but you seem to have a taboo or weird mental block against saying the sauce is what it is.

>>2812840
no one deserves anything, least of all you.

>>2812790
>You can ask AI about these things, it's pretty good when it comes to explaining mathematical concepts and why they work to predict outcomes.
I've done that before but I always get scared I'm tricking myself into thinking I understand but really I'm just making myself even dumber and more confident at the same time

what do people in here think about liquid democracy?
>you can give/retract your endorsement of a representative at any time
>endorsing someone essentially gives them your voting power
>you can retract your voting power on any issue and vote on only that issue directly
here's one implementation: https://liquidfeedback.com/en/ one trait of this particular implementation is that there is no voting secrecy. personally I see this as a positive. secret ballots are liberal cowardice

>>2813032
this is aristocracy (elections) not democracy. Secret ballots are a fundamental right long established to protect citizens' right to vote freely without reprisals. Honestly read a fucking book before you come in here attempting to invert reality with your newspeak.

>>2813055
>voting freely without reprisals
no. stand for your fucking opinions

>>2813060
>he thinks politics is about opinions

>>2813032
LD is a good system but it needs a pretty heavyweight bit of accountability behind it otherwise it'd be very prone to corruptions and scandal.

What LD needs is a serious online interface so you can actually manage where you're delegating when and where, I do not want to have the same guy managing my vote on tech subjects as the guy I would delegate to on alcohol law and i want to vote myself on gun control.

>>2813032
also i dont think abolishing voting or delegation secrecy is a good idea. There's been plenty of open-source software examples of why seeing names on github etc. can cause problems

>>2813349
Interesting PDF, thanks!

>>2813388
in that case you'll have to ditch any kind of computerized remote system, because there's no way to guarantee voting secrecy that way

>>2813713
why not?

>>2813032
Already discussed in the older /cybercom/ threads:
https://archive.is/xBFYY
https://archive.ph/Afx5a
ctrl-f liquid

>>2813799
>why not?
it's the standard position in CS

>>2813799
if you have a system connected to the network, it's an inherent security risk

I think some of the sortition fans in here place too much stock in Paul Cockshott Thought. democracy can only be won after the population has been appropriately indoctrinated. to institute "democracy" in the USA for example, where a sizeable part of the population are MAGA, would be disastrous. I do not want to give MAGA people any kind of power. we must reeducated the people first. only then can we possibly speak of democracy. to think freely is great. to think correctly is greater

>>2814034
The video is realistic, given the absolute state of current tech, yet i feel not all of the pessimism is entirely warranted. If bitcoin can digitize currency, so would a sufficiently clever voting scheme be able to work. Here's my crack at it:
  1. Voters get issued two keys over a secure channel or from their local seat of government.
  2. The first key is used to symmetrically encrypt and sign a message containing the vote.
  3. The second key is an access token to a public gateway server, that anonymously forwards the message to a secured counting server and expires the token in case of success.
  4. The counting server then identifies and decrypts the message.
The necessary infrastructure could be spread out over multiple counties. This does not assuage fears about infected end users, but it does makes intrusion harder, provided the gateways are well cared for. It would also enable the creation of large-scale digital marketplaces for votes…

>>2814106
anon people much smarter than you have already thought about this problem very hard and concluded that nothing beats pencil and paper if secrecy is a concern. 1) and 2) in your scheme ensures the state knows exactly who voted for what. it also doesn't guarantee votes are actually counted correctly since the actual counting is inscrutable
a lot of these issues go away by abolishing secret votes. that doesn't mean we might not want to use secret votes for some things. but importantly, it is practically impossible to do correctly with computers

>>2814274
>anon people much smarter than you have already thought about this problem very hard and concluded that nothing beats pencil and paper if secrecy is a concern.
Probably, but thinking about it is fun regardless.

>1) and 2) in your scheme ensures the state knows exactly who voted for what.

The anonymity aspect hinges on the fact, that only the department issuing the keys to a specific voter, ideally exactly one person, who prepared then sealed the documents, has ever seen both at the same time. Neither of the keys would later be associated with an identity, since the only information left over is the number of keys in circulation and the number of received votes less than or equal to it.

>it also doesn't guarantee votes are actually counted correctly since the actual counting is inscrutable

What the scheme leaves behind after votes have been issued, is a set of cryptographically verifiable messages. Handling this data would be more complex than ensuring the physical security of ballots, but you still have tons of options involving secure checksums, redundancy and cryptographic ledgers.

This is more or less how i would picture it working:
  1. A central goverment authority prepares a list of keys based on the total number of registered voters.
  2. Your local government securely receives its alloted number of keys and is responsible for giving them out to the voters.
  3. The voters connect to a gateway run by the local government, which forwards its messages over a secure government netwok, until reaching the central government authority. If you want to leave a paper trail, hook up a line printer to every server along the way, which records a secure checksum of every message.
  4. The program at the end of all this isn't very complex and should thus be easily audible: Get a list of keys and encrypted messages to decode, then sum the votes from the individual messages.

To commit forgery of a vote, an attacker would need have a vote encryption key and either an access key or the ability to inject votes without anyone noticing. Deanonymizing voters would take a large-scale effort to infiltrate local government, record key identities and look them up from the internal voting record, which i think is in the same scope as someone bribing the postal service to deanonymize mail voting.

>>2813032
You can have ballot secrecy but only for non-delegated votes. Delegatees have a higher responsibility and sacrifice their privacy. If you want privacy you can take it back at any moment through an individual vote.

>>2814605
yes a hybrid system could work. but there's another important factor: cost. how often could we feasibly hold secret votes on things? once per year? one per month?

How to deal with gluts and shortages? The obvious way is via price adjustments (also my fav because I'm a bore), but some people propose enacting per-head limits or a combination of mechanisms. Each mechanism is also a measurement of sorts. When just one mechanism is used, how intensely the mechanism is used is also a general measure for the size of this or that glut or shortage, so one can make comparisons across the economy and this helps with prioritizing. But how to estimate excess demand for two products while for one product the price is raised and for the other a per-person limit is applied?

It is possible to use a combination of mechanisms to deal with supply-demand mismatches and still have a measure of the intensity of these mismatches for the whole economy if and only if these mechanisms are arranged into a rigid hierarchy. For an example of how this can be done, take a look at the following monstrosity.

This requires that people do not use cash, but a system of electronic accounts tied to the individual which makes possible to have individualized rewards and punishments. People living together can opt into linking their accounts to a simple algorithm that automatically gives them the result they would get when coordinating perfectly their purchase behavior to maximize the rewards and minimize the punishments and swapping items between them. (This is not the same as a shared budget account as the individual budgets remain firmly in the hands of the individuals.)

The hierarchy distinguishes between 11 cases, these being 5 levels of glut + 5 levels of shortage + the normal case with the normal price.

GLUT LEVEL 1: The price is still the normal price, but payment of ½ the price is deferred to 30 days later without interest charge.

GLUT LEVEL 2: Same as level 1, but there is also a rebate offer for one extra unit per person bought within 3 days of the first unit of just paying ½ the normal price without having to pay the second half later. (This is also applied retroactively.)

GLUT LEVEL 3: Now the price is set to ½ the normal price in general and not just as a rebate. (The rebate effect is not stacked on top of that. Deferred debt from the product obtained at glut level 1 is deleted.)

GLUT LEVEL 4: Price set to 0.

GLUT LEVEL 5: Price set to negative.

And now to the shortage levels.

SHORTAGE LEVEL 1: The normal price still exists, but individuals who buy a second unit within 3 days have to pay 2× the normal price.

SHORTAGE LEVEL 2: The price is set to 2× the normal price for everyone.

SHORTAGE LEVEL 3: Keeping the price at 2× the normal price and there is a limit per head within a 30-day period.

SHORTAGE LEVEL 4: Taking all the crap from level 3 and adding a waiting list or lottery.

SHORTAGE LEVEL 5: Production canceled.

Any idea what we should name this? I feel pretty meh about it, so I would like a name that reflects that. Don't overthink the details in the above, a lot of these choices are arbitrary. The point is, if you want a measure and you mix mechanisms, then you need to have a hierarchy.

>>2814920
>SHORTAGE LEVEL 5: Production canceled.
wut, shouldn't you increase production instead? by say investing in MoPs

>>2815223
yeah but why would you stop production when demand is non-zero?

>>2815300
How would you then define a situation of being in a persistent maximal shortage of something then? If "it's not produced anymore" is not part of that description, then adding these words makes the description sound more extreme, no? So without these words, the situation is not at the most extreme.

This is supposed to classify gluts and shortages. The levels are not a set of instructions what to do. ("When we are at level _, you will do __.") Note what is not described: buffer stocks, inflows and outflows, even though that would make a lot of sense. So this is classification by actions. ("When we are doing __, this means we are at level _.")

>>2817188 (me)
Ahem, FUCK AUTOFORMATTING.

>>2817188
>it's not produced anymore
if something isn't produced then there is nothing to do. I'm not sure I understand how this is even a problem. people could put in investment proposals for MoPs to produce that thing. but perhaps it is a thing that is not to be produced, like say nuclear waste?

>>2817207
>but perhaps it is a thing that is not to be produced, like say nuclear waste?
It's a classification scheme for shortages of goods and shortage level 5 means shortage of the most extreme type. And you ask this. Do you buy nuclear waste at the store.

>>2817210
>Do you buy nuclear waste at the store.
I can buy smoke detectors which contain a form of nuclear waste

Vivek Chibber is one of the most influential nominally socialist writers in the US. He is one of the founders of Catalyst, a theory journal of Jacobin. Here is an interview (or "interview", as the other person sounds more sycophantic than ChatGPT and just agrees with everything) where Chibber argues against central planning, doing the usual sleight of hand of equating decentralized with market mechanisms:
https://jacobin.com/2026/05/central-planning-soviet-union-socialism
Actual quote by him from that:
<Normally in capitalism, what do managers do? They want to make profits. The way to make a profit is by trying to sell, at the lowest price possible, the best-quality good that you can.
This is false. The goal in capitalism is to maximize profits, which is very different from trying to maximize output while breaking even.

<That planner has to get everybody else to follow his directions because it only works if they listen to what he is saying.

He talks of "the central planner" as if that were a single person.

<When you start with saying, “We need so much steel,” in order to make that steel, you have to know everything that goes into making steel. And it’s all integrated. In order to have all those things go into the steel, you have to ask, “Well, how many blast furnaces do we need?” For the blast furnaces, you have to ask, “How much coal do we need?” For the steel to be made, you have to ask, “Okay, once all that steel is made, where’s it going to go? Who’s going to use it?” Trains, automobiles, and so on.


<In economics, these are called complementarities or linkages. Everything is linked. If you screw up one of those links, it radiates all across the economy. So you have to be able to handle complexity at a level that just boggles the mind.

In economics, complementary goods are goods that go well together with other goods, the opposite case of competition. E. g. If you are got a stand selling pretzels and Coke and you make the pretzel cheaper, demand for your Coke goes up. Anyway, the connections that Chibber speaks of are very much visible in the input-output tables of a planned economy. This is a strength of the planned economy.

<As it happens in the Soviet Union, everything went wrong all the time.

🙄

<Because of the uncertainty and the possibility of breakdown in the provision of inputs, manpower, things like that, managers have an incentive to lie when they give the information to the planners.

The same issue exists between departments of all but the very smallest companies.

<In a planned system, when the needed inputs, raw materials that every enterprise needs are not forthcoming, planners cannot be shielded from the responsibility of that enterprise or workplace not delivering and coming through. That means planners are in a difficult situation where they can’t come and say, “I’m going to let you fail.” Because now in that region, every worker, and every worker in connected enterprises who will suffer from yours being shut down is going to turn around and get really angry at that planner, at the planning bodies, and so on. You could have a constant civil war going on.


<So for the planner, it’s easier to say, “Look, just do better next time. I’m not going to let you go under.” This is called a soft budget constraint.

it seems to not occur to Chibber that it is possible to punish a specific manager without taking apart the factory he managed.

He argues for market socialism because:
<Centrally planned economies were built not to have slack.
But are the concepts of central planning and having no slack actually connected by logical necessity, one leading to the other? The answer is no. This felt connection is a very important "argument" for him, he drones on and on about it.

Chibber finishes with this:
<If we’re actually serious about changing the world, people on the Left, Marxist or non-Marxist, but people who are actually trying to fight for socialism, should be the most remorseless and the most merciless when it comes to facts. Unfortunately, we’re a long way from that right now.
I fully agree with that at least.

Cockshott just made a response video to Chibber, gonna watch it now.

>Reply to Chibber
shots fired

>>2819557
>09:44 If the market system was more rational in its use of resources, if its information transmission was more effective as the Austrian school - Hayek, Mises and now Chibber - claim, then the market economies would have raced ahead of the USSR. But actually the opposite is the case!
oh snap


A method for participatory budgeting: BOS+ (This is not for fiddling with the sizes of slices from the budget pie going to a few rather abstract topics, but for concrete project proposals with defined budget sizes.)

>>2825009
great find. thanks.

what is to be done about degrowthers? more than a few times I've had run-ins with people online who seem incapable of understanding that planning means that all technologies are on the table, including whatever tech is their personal pet peeve, be it nuclear or SRM or whatever

Thread archived and migrated:
https://nukechan.net/social/thread/1438.html

<INDEP online Talk with Leone – On Defining and Measuring Human Needs with Democratic Planning
>This is a recording of our online event with Leone on Defining and Measuring Human Needs with Democratic Planning, which was held on June 9th 2026.
>You can find the description below:
>Meeting social needs with democratic planning requires that we learn how to see and define those needs, and that we institutionalize such learning processes in postcapitalist governance. In this presentation, Leone explores some meditations on the politics of measurements and their role in planning processes in a postcapitalist world, with a focus on democratic investment planning. The essay upon which this presentation is based seeks to articulate some of the core political problems around measurements which we must design real-world interventions to solve. He invites scrutiny and feedback on his current essay draft, which can be found on the discord server of the Econophysics community: https://fbi.gov/invite/9jZYkRYYWA
>INDEP - The International Network for Democratic Economic Planning
our website: https://www.indep.network/
>We are an international network of workers, students, researchers, and activists, who share the common goal of advancing a post-capitalist economic system based on democratic economic planning.
>You can join INDEP as a member (as individual or as organization), subscribe to our newsletter, share news and events from the world of democratic economic planning. If you are interested in organizing an event with INDEP yourself or want to get involved otherwise feel free to reach out to us via [email protected].

>>2839910
>wordfilter changed discord link to fbi.gov
lel

Brandon Lee responding to the Jacglowbin article on planning

>>2841343
thanks

>>2839910
39 minutes in, Leone Castar says he looks for collaborators do develop a chapter how a postcapitalist judiciary would work. Well, I don’t use Discord or Zoom and I prefer to remain anonymous, so I will just drop my answer in this thread.

JURY SYSTEM

To get inspiration, we start with a brief look at a very simple analytical model: There is a group of people trying to answer some question about reality by voting between two options, one true and one false. Each person in the group got more intelligence than zero, so their chance of picking the right option from the two is a bit better than 50 %. Assume the same percentage for each person, with no particular correlation between people. That’s the model. What follows from this? Three things:
  1. The banal thing: The best approach to finding the truth here is to just go with the option that gets more votes, not requiring a super-majority or people voting for representatives who then vote.
  2. The beautiful thing: We can get arbitrarily close to being correct 100 % of the time if the group is big enough. These two conclusions are known as Condorcet’s Jury theorem.
  3. A tricky detail: If you have a group size that is odd and you just add one person, the probability that the group gets the right decision just stays where it is. So the group size should be odd.

When it comes to punishment, I’m thinking of something a bit more complicated than just two options. I think the topic fits into a one-dimensional spatial model. I think such a model fits because we can think of prison time as a quantity shown on a line, and everybody agrees what more or less means here. This agreement is necessary, but not sufficient for a really good fit. It is also necessary that people see themselves as standing on a point on that line. A counter-example: A parliament discusses different proposals for military spending and there might be consensus on how to order these plans from small to big, but the politicians may not all see themselves as standing on one point on that line, but rather with each foot on one end. On that issue, one may be of the opinion: “Go big or go home.”

The punishment in a criminal case is to be decided not by a judge, but by the interplay of a sortition-selected jury and laws from a sortition-selected legislature.

Each jury member expresses where they individually stand on the line. For the aggregated jury voice we take not the arithmetic mean, but the median. That is, we order the ballots on a line from smallest to biggest stated punishment, and then we walk over the ballots. When we have just walked over half the ballots, we stop, and we have the answer at our feet. A jury majority wants no bigger punishment and a jury majority wants no smaller punishment.

(By the way, there have been some estimation contests, like guessing the weight of an ox or the amount of marbles in a jar, and the median has usually been the more accurate estimate than the arithmetic mean. Francis Galton wrote about this.)

Picture yourself as a jury member who believes to know better than the others what the proper size of punishment should be. If the arithmetic mean were taken as the aggregated jury voice, you would have an incentive to estimate the votes of the others and then to strategically exaggerate your difference on your ballot to get a result closer to your ideal. Not so with the median. (Aside: If the number of voters were even, there would be the need for an extra rule to deal the two middle votes in order to avoid exaggeration incentive, like flipping a coin or always taking the lower one.)

When the legislature designs a law describing some kind of wrongdoing, the people in the legislature vote with two ballots, one for the recommended minimum sentencing and one for the possible maximum sentencing. We don’t want that the legislature can easily turn the juries into a powerless appendix, so we use super-majorities here. We saw with Condorcet’s Jury theorem that the majority has a special meaning. Requirements for super-majorities usually seem rather arbitrary, but here we use something meaningful. We order the ballots for the minimum recommendation, and walk from the end with the biggest stated value towards the other end, stopping once we have passed over ¾ of the votes. Likewise the other way around: We order ballots for the possible maximum sentencing and walk from the smallest stated value towards the other end, stopping once we have passed over ¾. These super-majorities of over ¾ have their basis in protecting an “ordinary” majority: Doing the two counts this way, over half the people voting will see both their voted values included within the two aggregated values.

For either act of voting in the legislature a voter not stating a value that is equal to the aggregate answer will either land on the lower-value or the higher-value side; and when we counter-factually assume a scenario of that voter voting with a ballot exaggerating the difference to the aggregate result, we can easily see that such behavior would not have changed the aggregate result, just like with the jury’s median aggregate.

What punishment does the defendant receive in the end: The jury cannot make a harsher sentence real than the possible maximum set by the legislature, but the jury can always make real something below the minimum recommendation of the legislature, even zero punishment.

The issue of the received punishment is not quite identical to what the jury can express: The jury can always express a wish for a harsher sentence than the maximum set by the legislature, even though the actual punishment gets capped at that maximum. This is valuable feedback for the legislature to re-evaluate things. If the jury’s aggregate voice going out of bounds happens often enough with a particular type of wrongdoing, the update of the recommended minimum and possible maximum could even be automatic. (But an increased maximum cap for a particular type of wrongdoing should not be used to retroactively increase sentencing.)

Is the question of punishment really always about an amount of an obvious “punishment substance” expressed as cardinal data though? Why is it that a one-dimensional and highly abstract approach to punishment was so obvious to me in the beginning of writing this? Perhaps it is because I am living in capitalist society where almost anything is measured in a one-dimensional abstract way. Perhaps a new society with more focus on concrete use-values will also react to the many different ways of wrongdoing with many different concrete approaches, and more focus on what offenders should do for their victims. An intriguing thought.

The voting procedures that use scales can actually handle combinations of different types of punishment if these are expressed as a ranking of punishment bundles, with a bigger bundle compared to a smaller bundle always containing it as a strict subset. But people on a jury might come up with rather diverse ideas that don’t fit into an obvious ranking.

How about this: In addition to using the scale procedure described in this essay, a jury dealing with a concrete case can also discuss alternative ways and vote with an approval ballot for these. Any alternative proposal that gains approval by a majority of jury members is then submitted to the defendant together with the scale procedure’s result. The defendant chooses.

And with that addition we will also have more feedback data and a really self-critical system.


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