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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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This thread is for the discussion of cybercommunism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and creators. Drama belongs in /isg/

Reading
Towards a New Socialism by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
Brain of the Firm by Stafford Beer
Cybernetic Revolutionaries by Eden Medina
Cybernetics: Or the Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine and The Human Use of Human Beings (1st edition) by Norbert Wiener
Economic cybernetics by Nikolay Veduta
People's Republic of Walmart by Leigh Phillips and Michal Rozworski
Red Plenty by Francis Spufford
Economics in kind, Total socialisation and A system of socialisation by Otto Neurath (Incommensurability, Ecology, and Planning: Neurath in the Socialist Calculation Debate by Thomas Uebel provides a summary)

Active writers/creators sorted by last name

>Paul Cockshott

https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ)
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/
https://twitter.com/PaulCockshott (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/PaulCockshott)
>Cibcom (Spanish)
https://cibcom.org/
https://twitter.com/cibcomorg (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/cibcomorg)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA)
>Tomas Härdin
https://www.haerdin.se/tag/cybernetics.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w)

Podcasts
>General Intellect Unit
Podcast of the Cybernetic Marxists
http://generalintellectunit.net/

Previous threads in chronological order
https://archive.is/uNCEY
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
https://archive.ph/uyggp
https://archive.is/xBFYY
https://archive.ph/Afx5a
https://archive.is/kAPvR
https://archive.is/0sAS2
https://archive.is/jXivP
https://archive.is/Lx8TF
231 posts and 38 image replies omitted.


>>2917169
thanks anon but learn to use embed next time

>INDEP online Talk with David Zachariah – Socialist Planning as Anticipatory Economic Regulation

>>2915837
When Smith Anon gets assblasted so much he is having a near-death experience, he posts these really short texts in defense of himself in the hope that people can't tell from style that it's him. Love it.

>>2920231
Oskar Lange, Viktor Novozhilov. Yeah nothing new here. David Zachariah makes the point that by allocating labor time explicitly as such to the enterprise, the center reduces incentives at the enterprise level to exaggerate what they require. An allocation of maximally abstract budget goop that can be sliced and diced in a trillion ways (AKA money) can be easily abused for self-enrichment. It is well worth dwelling on that point.

People often talk about incentives to shill for market-like processes. Their rhetoric tends to be very simplistic. When they talk about incentives, they usually disregard any interest individuals might have in the well-being of others. Assuming a hyper-selfish person, the claim is that without direct rewards there is a lack of incentives for doing good. But a situation without these direct individual material incentives for a selfish person is not the worst situation in the world. In a situation without direct rewards and punishments, you are also not punished for doing good. And introducing an incentive system with differential individual rewards usually also creates situations where you get punished for doing good.

An absence of incentives also means an absence of perverse incentives.

>>2920842
I don't think he's talking about personal incentives, but incentives on a firm level

>>2920923
Yeah but I don't see that making a practical difference here.

>>2920842
How would you get workers into an industry that is short on hands without incentives? The Soviet Union had better pay and conditions for people willing to work in the Arctic regions, would this kind of thing not be necessary to ensure proper distribution of workers sectorally and geographically?

File: 1790446468506-2.jpeg (166.28 KB, 720x595, Abuse.jpeg)

>>2920842
>When Smith Anon gets assblasted so much he is having a near-death experience
There is literally nothing of note in the criticism to my post.
The replies are complaints of style, not substance.
>the hope that people can't tell from style that it's him
Why would I disguise myself?
I am one of the few prudent and literate posters on this forum.
As for your own post:
>you are also not punished for doing good
I believe that in any personal relationship, this is considered abuse:
<Look, I didn't hit you today! Aren't you glad?
<Dig the hole… or else.
Else what, in the Communist utopia? What are the "punishments"?
This all says a lot about your psychology.
By the way, I have written on the Soviet economy (1921–28) and the Soviets offered incentives and rewards for different divisions of labour, like how miners only worked 6-7 hours, while others worked 8 hours, leading to higher marginal produce, and thus greater hourly wages. This was far beyond the standards of the West, of course.
You can read my review here: >>2857646

>>2920948
You don't get it.
Anon thinks the only way for a slave to work better is to whip them.

>>2920970
>You can read my review here:
good post. have you ever read RW Davies? his epic tomes of soviet economy got dumped here:

>>>/edu/24318
>>>/edu/24319
>>>/edu/24320
>>>/edu/24321

>>2920970
>I am one of the few prudent and literate posters on this forum.
I am sure your girlfriend ChatGPT tells you that every day, but your "critique" of post >>2915426 is "Your argument rests on the assumption of utility being a type of social knowledge", which means your reading comprehension failed you already at the title of the article, which explicitly distinguishes modern utility and classical use-value concepts, as does the entire rest of the article, whereas you conflate.

If you don't want to disguise yourself, use a name.

>>2920948
>How would you get workers into an industry that is short on hands without incentives? The Soviet Union had better pay and conditions for people willing to work in the Arctic regions
Strictly speaking, there is no need for that, because people can be drafted to work at this or that activity in this or that place. IIRC Trotsky was a big fan of that, though I am not. (A drafting procedure could still take into account what the drafted people actually want to to, e. g. people fill out forms ranking activities from more liked to less liked and then the forms are processed in random order or by some order of merit like school grades.) There can be remuneration standards for that, I just wouldn't want them decided at the enterprise level.

Suppose the administration of an enterprise is not all its workers. These administrations communicate with the center. The center makes decisions about allocating resources to the enterprises. If the center gives money to the administration of an enterprise, that's a very flexible resource for the administration, too flexible'. If the center gives management that sort of freedom, they will likely just do the short-term thing and enrich themselves. With an electronic accounting network that the check clocks are linked up with, the center can compartmentalize a local administration's budget or even use completely distinct circuits of play-money for things like remuneration. Aaron Benanav speaks of that.

The less universal and abstract, the more compartmentalized and specific, the requests from the enterprise administrations to the center are, the less room an enterprise has for bullshitting, but it also gets kinda tedious.

>>2920930
it depends on how often we can re-plan things. if it can happen instantly then there is no issue. but if there's a three-month delay to re-plan for you to get a necessary spare part, then it makes sense to have a monetary budget with which to order parts until the plan catches up. that way you keep "spontaneous" spending in check. without a budget you run into issues associated with soft budget constraints

>>2920975
I'll check it out; thanks.
>>2920992
>drafted to work
Literally slavery.
What happens if a worker exiles his commander? Court Marshalling?
>>2920985
>A type of social knowledge
Read: >>2915426
<In classical economics and Marx, the use-value of something is what it is useful for due to its known aspects. Known by whom? - Most adult people living in society. Even though this knowledge changes over time (Marx gives the example of magnets), for a given time and place this knowledge is taken to be something fixed and objective.
I have interpreted anon's meaning perfectly.
I thus critique this naivety by adding how to Marx, use-value was still contingent, even in the presumption of social knowledge. It is true that in the general classical view, supply created its own demand, but Marx permits error on the part of suppliers; especially in the larger thread of crises of overproduction. If use-value was a known factor, all markets would achieve equilibrium. We see Malthus as early as 1800 comment on the "glut" of markets, which in Smithian terms, exceed effectual supply, and so become waste-products. Another Malthusian, Senior, also sees that there is overproduction, which can only be solved by redistribution. Rodbertus finally saw that overproduction is coincidental of underconsumption, although Marx was earlier in the Manifesto, diagnosing this issue. If we take even the earliest classical economists like Boisguilbert in France, we see how the contradiction of value-formation impresses itself on the value of wages; e.g. where food is "overproduced", this cheapens labour, and so the excess food becomes wasted, unless it is traded abroad, which was Boisguilbert's free trade solution, which nonetheless distracted from a commercial confrontation of the limits of capitalist production. So, use-value as a type of social knowledge has always been limited, especially as it concerns the "paradox of value", described as early as in Aristotle's time.
>use a name
Why would I be a namefag?
This is [8chan], not plebbit.

File: 1790497820538-0.jpg (213.4 KB, 1280x720, those who don't work.jpg)

>>2921323
>>drafted to work
>Literally slavery.
>What happens if a worker exiles his commander? Court Marshalling?

File: 1790516614643-2.pdf (4.45 MB, 165x255, 1746760094530-1.pdf)

>>2920975
>>2921323
I'm through 2 chapters of the second volume, and the word "tome" is apt. I will not be continuing, since it's not befitting of a novice to be so acquainted with this dry economic history. Here is my own summary:

Chapter 1 deals in the general situation of the kolkhozy, or the collective farm, which began to develop in 1925, in smaller form (Ch. 1C), but which by 1930 had grown in size to encompass dozens of households. By 1930, there were 113,000 kolkhozy in the USSR - jumping from only 57,000 in 1929 (Ch. 2), expropriating hundreds of thousands of kulaks (Ch. 1A); a struggle notoriously culminating in the Holodomor (1932-3), and so the class struggle between peasant and state ended. The drive for collectivisation was simultaneous of the application of "laws of industry" to all sectors (Ch. 1A), necessarily meaning centralising authority in line with investment (e.g. mechanisation). It was suggested in November 1929 that the kolkhozy be managed in the style of the state-owned sovkhozy, or "grain factory" (Ch. 1A), but this was too costly.  Along with the kolkhozy was their union in the kolkhozsoyuzy, which was sought to be joined with the agricultural cooperatives, or the koopsoyuzy, further centralising authority. Enthusiasm for the kolkhozy displaced the traditional power centres of mir and skhod, and even overshadowed the soviets - along with intrusive plenipotentiaries. Major features of the kolkhoz system established in 1929-30 endured until Stalin's death, and for some time after it (Ch. 1C). So, the basis of collectivisation was firmly planted in this era.

Chapter 2 deals with Machine-Tractor Stations (MTS). In terms of ownership, by Spring 1929, the sovkhozy only possessed 100 tractors, while large 147 kolkhoz owned 800 tractors, and 57,000 small kolkhoz owned majority of the 20,000 available tractors. By October 1929, no tractors remained in personal possession. Technology for agriculture was suggested to be joined in a "unified organisational centre" to provide investments to places most requiring it, and so on. Markevich rejected a policy resuscitated by Khrushchev 30 years later, that each kolkhoz-village should possess its own tractors, and so insisted upon MTS monopoly. For this, representatives of the MTS would supervise production performed from the hire of machines; the peasants would then pay out a charge per hectare - an example is from Shevchenko, where a village would pay up to 1/3 of its harvest to the MTS, which thus induced incentives for more produce. Markevich sought to separate tractors from kolkhozy by exclusive state monopoly, which was criticised by many, seeing how independent contracts were already given from people. After a lot of intense detail, we see that from January to July 1930, kolkhozy no longer simply collectivised harvests, but all "commodity branches of agriculture" including draught animals and implements. With this too, all MTS were divorced from cooperative control, and instead deferred to the state and kolkhozy - which also acted as a rival to local and soviet powers, implicitly on behalf of state interests. By September 1930, the Traktorotsentr took over all cooperative MTS.

From what I gather in this process of collectivisation, the cooperatives were an obstacle which was defeated, and as Davies adds, there were common grievances by inefficiencies of the MTS system, such as 40% of all labour being repair of tractors. As I put it in my review, collectivisation has its dekulakisation during 1932-3, momentous of these earlier steps in the five year plan. The very short preface also gives a good picture of it:
<The collective farmers were remunerated for their work on the collective lands-in principle, though not yet in practice-in 'labour days'; these were proportionate to the quantity and quality of work, though they were paid only after the harvest, by sharing out what remained after state and collective needs were satisfied. In this compromise between state and peasant interests, the state predominated, by its power and its material advantages. The collective product was firmly con-trolled by state collection agencies, and, after a lengthy controversy, available tractors and other modern machinery were transferred to state-owned Machine-Tractor Stations, each of which served and controlled a number of kolkhozy.
Here, we see a class struggle at work, between bureau and peasant.

2026sep28
>>2921323
>I have interpreted anon's meaning perfectly.
Can you give a summary of >>2915426 in your own words.

>>2921698 (me)
Yes, I do put my text entries like that in one gigantic .txt file before I post them here. (If you instead post first and then copy-paste you introduce the possibility of the forum software crapping itself and also lose formatting.)

>>2921699
oh hey it's .txt autism anon. how's life been treating you?

>>2921698
Summary:

From the 20th century onwards, utility is understood as something singular to individuals, and very difficult to estimate. In the Classical and Marxist view, however, use-value is something known by most adults living in a particular society. This is implicit in exchange, since to have the confidence to sell something means to have a foreknowledge of possible utility for others. Since use-value differs in terms of potential and actuality, those who possess much in potential may never realise them. Since wealth is a realisation of use-values, expropriating potential use-values from those who possess them is not a subtraction of wealth (e.g. taxation subtracts at a margin of income which may be better economised for greater ends). So, then, redistributing potential wealth increases actual wealth, in effect.

Property privilege is not merely direct ownership by appropriation, but is statutory, and so a product of law. For this sake, one may have a claim to property without being able to use it. A contrary "use privilege" would be different, since ownership would be contracted upon useful appropriation (e.g. Locke's Homestead Principle). Such things as monopolised estates or intellectual property would cease to exist under this system of law; establishing a "new society" (e.g. Classical Liberalism).

>>2915426
>>2921954
>From the 20th century onwards, utility is understood as something singular to individuals, and very difficult to estimate. In the Classical and Marxist view, however, use-value is something known by most adults living in a particular society.
Yes.
>This is implicit in exchange, since to have the confidence to sell something means to have a foreknowledge of possible utility for others.
Use-value is far more specific than estimating something is probably useful to someone. The shoe seller does not just merely know that shoes are useful to people, the shoe seller knows what shoes are. Even a person born without legs very likely also knows.
>Since use-value differs in terms of potential and actuality, those who possess much in potential may never realise them.
May? Use-value only becomes real through actual usage, actual consumption. Those who don't make use of a use-value by definition don't realize it. "Realizing" here does not refer to something happening in the head ("I realized Kevin from HR is an asshole"), it means "making it a reality" (the calories in the pudding in my fridge will add to my body only if I eat the pudding, before that they are a mere potential). Usage can be observed.
>A contrary "use privilege" would be different, since ownership would be contracted upon useful appropriation
This is very confused phrasing. The article describes ownership as it exists in law ("property privilege") and does not propose a development of that concept, but a reduction of its application to niche cases, and proposes a different concept with its own label: "use privilege".
>(e.g. Locke's Homestead Principle)
Totally different concept. That one is about nature becoming yours because you are mixing your labor with nature. (Aside: Modern readers of Locke virtually all take that to mean the labor of the lone individual, but did Locke actually mean that? People had servants.) Look at the example given in the article: Nature didn't make bicycles by itself. To what extent people relate to bicycles as makers doesn't even come up in the article, because it is irrelevant to the concept it presents.

>>2921954
>C4SS
ancap garbage

>>2876480
that made me sad. I didn't know he had a nonverbal autistic son. :(

>>2922342
>the shoe seller knows what shoes are
So a thing in itself is a use-value? This is confused.
A use-value is only relative to what may be useful to people.
That's why even if we know what rubbish is, its still waste.
>Usage can be observed.
You aren't quite grasping the nature of potential. The post provides the distinction: "The use-value of something not in use is only a potential, the thing's use-value becomes real through use." This is what I wrote.
>does not propose a development of that concept
Yes it does; "having use privilege in something means you having a legal title granting you power to use that thing." Thus, ownership is transferred from the property holder to the useful expropriator. The "niche" has a very wide brush; "somebody has hoarded a huge pile of things that the hoarder logically cannot possibly all use […] suppose there is a new regulation stating an individual now can own only up to three bicycles." From a "huge pile" to "three" is a big difference, and this is all based upon the homestead principle; of excluding property from a common stock by useful appropriation. The argument against the hoarder is that he cannot effectively mix his labour with all he has.
>did Locke actually mean that?
Locke's personal feelings are irrelevant to the principle itself.
We may respect a man's ideas while seeing the man as a hypocrite.
>To what extent people relate to bicycles as makers doesn't even come up in the article
Fair enough, but where a thing has become wasted, we say that it has become part of the commons, and property by Lockean principles is established by privation from the commons. Thus, a thing comes into ownership where it has been claimed apart from a state of nature. The complaint of hoarding is that a thing exits society, and so loses its contractual basis. This is why I emphasise taxation. The most just tax policy redistributes wasted money for useful ends, and so society claims its right of appropriation of this produce.

Cockshott got a new book out titled VECTOR: Programming as Geometry. I suppose having a grounding in that will make input-output matrix math more easy to approach.

>>2922693
>"The use-value of something not in use is only a potential, the thing's use-value becomes real through use." This is what I wrote.
Smith Anon going full schizo 😭

>>2922716
input-output is useless for planning. move immediately to LP

>Kim Moody Article In Tempest Critiques Vivek Chibber’s Pro-Market Socialist Arguments
https://www.indep.network/kim-moody-article-in-tempest-critiques-vivek-chibbers-pro-market-socialist-arguments/
>Workers will fight for their self-interest
>A response to Vivek Chibber on planning, market socialism, and the necessity of rupture
>Kim Moody assesses some recent writings and interview by Catalyst editor and podcaster Professor Vivek Chibber on state planning, market socialism and the transition to socialism. Moody argues that Chibber misidentifies the roots of the contradictions that led to the fall of the Soviet Union and other eastern European states. Chibber’s argument in favor of market socialism not only rests on a mistaken analysis but leads to a mistaken downplaying of the necessity of a revolutionary rupture in the transition to socialism. A mistake with deep and tragic roots in the socialist movement.
https://tempestmag.org/2026/09/workers-will-fight-for-their-self-interest/

>>2924157
some thoughts:
the biggest problem I see with the piece is Moody's anticommunism. here are some relevant quotes:
>While the Soviet Union promoted itself as socialist and in the transition to a classless society, it was anything but. It was, in fact, a highly stratified and bureaucratized society.
>[The USSR] was, in a real sense, a totalitarian society.
there's even more Trot nonsense like this, including outright Trotsky quotes. like look at this:
>Stalin, apparently, was not averse to new capitalist technology
no shit Stalin wasn't averse to new tech. only a moron would think otherwise
the text is correct in pointing out a ruptural break is necessary, and rightfully criticizes Chibber's revisionism. bringing up the Meidner Plan is a good move, as it is probably the most based thing any social democrat has ever come up with. despite that, Palme ultimately didn't believe in it and the plan floundered as a result

>>2922718
>input-output is useless for planning. move immediately to LP
Bullshit. They are both useful.

>>2921446
To a certain extent collectivization was a necessary prerequisite for war as Philip Faymonville wrote to the US embassy in the 40's, but at the same time it was a contradictory policy. It's like Walmart monopsony for agriculture.

>>2924340
explain one (1) case where IO is more useful than LP

>>2924485
I didn't say one was useful than the other, I said they were both useful. You get technical coefficients from IO tables and plug them into an LP matrix.

>>2924486
>You get technical coefficients from IO tables and plug them into an LP matrix
no you don't. this is completely backwards. IO tables are part of national accounts. they are highly aggregated and useless for planning. Stalin rightfully criticized IO as "juggling with figures"

>>2924486
How does this work when LP is by definition a hypervolume in a substitutable space and IO gives you factorio style non substitutable stuff

>>2924486
to add to what >>2925424 is saying, a central issue is the choice of production methods. in national accounts electricity production is just one column. in reality we have a whole plethora of electricity production methods. so you are faced with questions like how much gas to burn and when. or whether to schedule production around the weather. or whether to invest in PVs or nuclear. questions like these cannot be solved with IO

>>2924351
Collectivization may be more economically inefficient and there is some data supporting the notion that private agriculture produces higher yields with less workers, but there is something to be said for how collectivization creates a support bloc that helps stabilize communist governments and inculcates a pro-state attitude in the peasantry that you wouldn't find in a fully privatized agricultural sector.

File: 1791150297629-1.jpg (187.98 KB, 1080x1350, boomer.jpg)

https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2026/10/04/on-my-expulsion-from-the-communist-party-of-britain/
>ON MY EXPULSION FROM THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF BRITAIN
>[…]
>Support for the American Communist Party.
imagine being expelled for supporting Haz' LARP org
>I did not make an audio or video recording; I produced a transcript.
Paul seriously thinks he can language lawyer himself out of taking notes during meetings of an organization that ultimately seeks to overthrow the Crown
>Rule 15(c): Members should improve their political knowledge and understanding of Marxism-Leninism, participate in discussion and formation of Party policy, win support for Party aims and policy, and recruit new members.
this one is extremely funny, I'll give Paul that. the idea that a published author and dedicated Marxist academic has failed to study Marxism-Leninism is very silly
>The investigation also alleged that I had breached Rule 2(c), which requires members to: “work for the removal of all unfair discrimination based on race, colour, sex, sexual orientation, gender reassignment, age, disability, marriage, civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, religion or belief.”
Paul proceeds to language lawyer again, not realizing that perhaps the big fat GENDER section on his blog and its contents might perhaps be construed as violating this rule

>>2926050
so they expelled the most important marxist economist alive (laibman is a hack) over gender shit

>>2926181
Paul seems to think it's over the "antisemitism" stuff. there's no way to tell

>>2926184
it's not just what he thinks, they listed that as a reason, that he supported "antisemitic conspiracy theories" because he doesn't buy the official explanation for the Nth israeli false flag attack
then there is the gender thing

imo the strongest point they have against him is the acp shit: he apparently liked and retweeted some of their stuff. on the other hand, he has made more than one video condemning and disproving acp nonsense, like his iconic video explaining that baristas are, in fact, NOT bourgeois:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEsuQyyv5hc

he clearly doesn't agree with them on anything, old man just saw the word "communist party" and smashed the like and retweet button. it's insane that they would expel someone over any of this, let alone someone of his caliber. this feels like some clique inside had a grudge against him and just decided to throw shit at the wall and see if it sticks

like, all the other british marxist authors from the last ~30 years are, at best, verso-books fodder

>>2926199
>"antisemitic conspiracy theories"

>>2926050
Heinrichchads winning

>>2926273
Another banger from that channel.

>>2926273
>the fucking anti-vaxx stuff near the end
am I missing something here? is he implying that Fauci was underestimating the amount of time (two weeks) it would take to get the pandemic under control?
>>2926199
>like, all the other british marxist authors from the last ~30 years are, at best, verso-books fodder
it could just be that the CPB has been infiltrated by glowies

>Socialism after AI | LSE Event
>The old socialist calculation debate asked whether markets or planners could allocate resources more rationally. But neoliberalism long ago shifted the terrain from calculation to creativity, experimentation and worldmaking — and AI now radicalises that shift by enclosing the infrastructures of knowledge, culture, judgment and imagination. This lecture, by Evgeny Morozov, argues that AI exposes a deeper blind spot in socialist thought: the absence of a robust theory of technologically-mediated action.
>The Left has struggled to grasp how human capacities, state power and technical infrastructures make one another inside the capitalist world-system — and how that same process might become a path from dependency to emancipation. From Europe’s search for AI sovereignty to the Global South’s long experience of technological dependence, the question is no longer only who owns the machines, but who controls the infrastructures through which societies learn, create, remember, govern and make worlds.
>Speaker: Dr Evgeny Morozov
>Chair: Professor Lea Ypi

>>2931008
I'm seeing a lot of "AI" crap in the planning debate recently and it is starting to get on my nerves. dumb. no one sits down and learns linear algebra. no one learns actual control theory

New book about the details of actual accounting in Parecon by Anders Sandström ("The Participatory Economy: Adding Realism to Democratic Planning"). Interview:
https://participatoryeconomy.org/interview-anders-sandstrom-on-adding-realism-to-democratic-planning/

Central planed economy is always brutal, bloodly, and harsh to begin with.

>>2926345
>is he implying that Fauci was underestimating the amount of time (two weeks) it would take to get the pandemic under control?
yes; and I don't think that qualifies as antivaxx on its own, especially not in the strongest sense of the term

>>2934029
>yes; and I don't think that qualifies as antivaxx on its own, especially not in the strongest sense of the term
yeah that's fine. I wouldn't trust porky's functionaries to tell the full truth. especially when they were all "we need everyone to get back to work!"
>>2933988
>Central planed economy is always brutal, bloodly, and harsh to begin with.
I'm already on board, you don't need to sell it to me


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