🗽UNITED STATES POLITICS 🦅
<Hail Caesar Edition🏈 💵Thread for hellish discussion of the Dying Burger Reich and the pedophile Hitlerite-Zionist clique of the American bourgeoisie and its iron grip upon the greatest bigliest country McGod™ ever gave McMan™ on the face of the McEarth™🌭 🍔
>Things are going to continue to happen in the stupidest ways possible that no one really takes seriously, where every single person compulsively reacts with either cynical grifting or useless panic and appealing to a political system of liberal democracy that is entirely dead and irrelevant. things will continue to get gradually worse, more people will lose their jobs and homes, the most destitute and marginalized will be oppressed by state-backed domestic terrorism, but the decay will simply continue and everyone who isn't actively being imprisoned and forced into slavery or outright exterminated will simply ignore it and maintain a cognitive dissonance of believing a civil war is happening while living their lives in a mostly normal fashion. The death of the United States will be slow, painful, and insufferably annoying and stupid. <Death to the scourge of the earth, the destroyer of nations, the father of fascism, the enabler of ethnostates, the treatlerite tyrant, the protector of pedophiles, the exporter of ecocide, the captain of capitalism, the king of coups, the sultan of sanctions, the emir of the embargo, the autocrat of austerity, the doge of deregulation, the baron of busting unions, the prince of privatization, the lord of loan sharks, the patron-saint of proxy wars, the sponsor of settlers, the guarantor of genocides, the invader of islands, the Divided $nakkkes of Amerikkka™ 🛠️ Strike Tracker ⚒️https://striketracker.ilr.cornell.edu/🇺🇸 Deeds of the Burger Reich 🇺🇸https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/us_atrocities.mdhttps://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list📺 Glowie News 📺(sponsored by the Burger Eagle Freedom Institute (formerly USAID))
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>>2569800Remember to filter mass tor baiters, feds, and trollsNot reporting is bourgeoisViolators will be launched from trebuchet>Zohran Mamdani tells NBC he still believes Trump is a 'fascist' and 'despot' after White House meeting
>>2571263it's ok, trump gave him permission to say it :^)
>>2571050he hesitates because the same argument applies to him. the only thing worse than fascist is the fascist dick rider.
>Socialists in Europe haven't caught up.healthcare status??
<Carney Says World Can Move on Without US, Stresses New Ties>Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney said the world can make progress on a range of issues without the US, and that consensus reached at a Group of 20 leaders’ meeting in Johannesburg this weekend carries weight despite a boycott by President Donald Trump’s administration.>South Africa, the G-20 host this year, defied the US by releasing a declaration from the meeting. Trump ordered the stayaway after repeating a debunked claim that White Afrikaner farmers in South Africa are being subjected to a genocide, and Washington said only a chairman’s summary could be released from the gathering in the absence of the US.>The summit “brought together nations representing three-quarters of the world’s population, two-thirds of global GDP and three-quarters of the world’s trade, and that’s without the United States formally attending,” Carney told a press conference in Johannesburg on Sunday. “It’s a reminder that the center of gravity in the global economy is shifting.”>Carney took office earlier this year after running a campaign that pushed back against Trump’s imposition of tariffs on its northern neighbor and suggestions it could become part of US territory. Carney has focused on reducing the Canadian economy’s reliance on the US.>At the press conference, he detailed his attempts to strengthen ties with nations ranging from South Africa to India and China.After a Nov. 20 meeting in Abu Dhabi with United Arab Emirates President Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, the Gulf country committed to investing C$70 billion ($50 billion) in Canada, Carney said, without providing specific details. That’s the biggest investment pledge Canada has ever received.
“We’re signing new deals and finding new investors to fuel our plans for Canada’s economic ambition,” he said. “We’ll expand trade and catalyze investment in increased partnerships across a range of areas from AI to energy in the Indo-Pacific and Europe.”
>Carney met with South African President Cyril Ramaphosa on Saturday, congratulated him on holding a successful G-20 summit, reiterated Canada’s support for his presidency of the bloc and pledged to build closer economic ties, according to a statement.>The Canadian leader said he was due to meet with Narendra Modi, India’s leader, in Johannesburg on Sunday and they are working on improving strained relations. In 2023, Canada said Indian agents may have been involved in assassinating a Canadian citizen of Indian origin on its soil — an allegation New Delhi rejected.>Carney emphasized that he won’t have his agenda dictated by Trump.>“I’ll speak to him again when it matters,” he said. “I don’t have a burning issue to speak with the president about right now. When America wants to come back and have the discussions on the trade side, we will have those discussions.”https://archive.is/20251123152744/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-23/carney-says-world-can-move-on-without-the-us-stresses-new-tieshttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-23/carney-says-world-can-move-on-without-the-us-stresses-new-ties >>2571263Then why is he riding his dick though
>>2571277Didn't Trump said he won't send ICE to NYC?
>>2571279Yup, all it took was Mamdani breaking out the wholesome smile and natural Indian charm and Donnie's heart melted before his new Bubba
>>2571277I mean I wish her all the best. I don't think her plan would work but I can admire her willingness to fight for it.
>>2571273Trump is riding his dick. Trump is a bottom
>>2571281She's intensifying class struggle. Her failure will not signal defeat, but a need to be more militant.
From a concrete analytical position: USA has no chance, no? Call it "diamat" if you want (continental tradion in Marxist philosophy), but.the US has no fucking chance of a DotP, etc.
The /USA/ is literally stuck in getting more incompetent and morr nazi. That's it, right?,
>>2571294
>jews telling catholics what their religion is
>>2571295>The /USA/ is literally stuck in getting more incompetent and morr naziThis is exactly *why* we have a chance. No revolution was ever brought about through friendly and competent state administration
>>2571259reading this article, this guy sounds almost quasi-Marxist, but then he falls into this kind of trap of equating US imperialism with Russia and China, and using "great many theory" and "dark triad traits" which are both psychobabble:
>Kemp says his argument that Goliaths require rulers who are strong in the triad of dark traits is borne out today. “The three most powerful men in the world are a walking version of the dark triad: Trump is a textbook narcissist, Putin is a cold psychopath, and Xi Jinping came to rule [China] by being a master Machiavellian manipulator.” >>2571307never mind. i gave him too much credit. now he's going off about "citizens' juries" (instead of workers' councils) and rambling about capping wealth at 10 million, which seems completely arbitrary, and also besdies the point.
BREAKINGchuds are converting to orthodoxy en masse because of bearded priests
>Across the country, the ancient tradition of Orthodox Christianity is attracting energetic new adherents, especially among conservative young men. They are drawn to what they describe as a more demanding, even difficult, practice of Christianity. Echoing some of the rhetoric of the so-called manosphere, new waves of young converts say Orthodoxy offers them hard truths and affirms their masculinity.
>One night this summer, the young adults of All Saints Orthodox Church in Raleigh, N.C., gathered at a bookshop and bar on the city’s north side. At the event’s peak, there were a mere handful of women present, and more than 40 men. The men noticed, and believed they knew why.
>Orthodoxy “appeals to the masculine soul,” said Josh Elkins, a student at North Carolina State University who was chatting with other young men.
>“The Orthodox Church is the only church that really coaches men hard, and says, ‘This is what you need to do,’” said Mr. Elkins, 20, who casually quoted a second-century martyr and rattled off terms like “monarchical episcopate” in conversation. He beamed as he talked about the weekly worship service known as the Divine Liturgy, an hourslong affair at which attendees typically stand the entire time, rather than sitting in the pews or kneeling.
>Orthodox Christians in the United States are younger and more male than many other Christian groups here. More than 60 percent of them are men, compared with 46 percent of evangelicals, according to the Pew Research Center. Orthodox Christians are also much younger, with 24 percent of adult adherents younger than 30, compared with 14 percent of evangelicals. The gaps are the same as those between Orthodox Christians and Catholics.
>Some converts report approvingly that Orthodoxy has a more masculine feel than other traditions. Priests, who must be male and can marry, often have large beards and big families. Orthodoxy asks practitioners to make sacrifices like fasting, rather than offering them emotional contemporary music and therapeutic sermons, which critics describe as the typical evangelical megachurch experience.
>The online influencers that many young men credit with introducing them to Orthodoxy speak directly about politics and culture in a way that parish priests more often avoid. They tend to share an unbending social conservatism, with a particular interest in the “traditional family” and what they describe as the threats of feminism, homosexuality and transgender identities. They are also generally opposed to the state of Israel.
>Certain corners of the Orthodox internet are not just conservative or traditionalist, but openly racist and antisemitic, with several far-right figures converting in recent years. In the South, there is a strain of neoconfederate Orthodoxy that marries white supremacy and Orthodox practice. Matthew Heimbach, who organized the notorious Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Va., in 2017, had been excommunicated from the Antiochian Orthodox church but joined another branch. https://archive.is/3vGE1 >>2571312Why don’t they convert to Islam?
>>2571313Too brown. Sad! They would have enjoyed it more.
>>2571312It is also a fact that many orthodox churches glow, half of them even recognized the Ukrainian Banderite church explicitly made just to say "fuck you Russia" before the president announces that they will celebrate Catholic Christmas anyway. I am not an expert on ROCOR or other orthodox churches to give you the saucy CIA details though
>>2571312Kinda thinking of going to churches as a curiosity thing tbh
>>2571285You dont get a goddamn thing. Social democracy is the left wing of fascism. Ziohran is dick riding fascist to best serve imperialist ameriKKKan. Ziohran will work with white house. The orange dick is deeply in his ass
>The New York City mayor-elect said that while he does believe Trump is a fascist, he still plans on working with the White House on New Yorkers' behalf. >>2571318>>2571313I mean Himmler did consider Islam to be a "warrior faith" and lamented the fact that Germany wasn't Islamic.
Anyways these people have no genuine convictions other than the desire to appear aesthetically "trad", and Russian Orthodoxy is basically the closest you can reasonably get to the platonic ideal of a Deus Vult My Little Dark Age Crusadermaxxing church. At least until they find out that Orthodox Christianity doesn't condone racism, then they'll convert to some bastardization of neo-paganism
>>2571326>At least until they find out that Orthodox Christianity doesn't condone racism, then they'll convert to some bastardization of neo-paganismThat or they'll convert to Islam
>>2571331Most of the time they're too deep in racism to do so, like you have to remember these types of people genuinely with their whole chest think that only Aryans have souls and that the other races were created alongside the animals on the 5th day, or that they're a product of deevolution or alien experimentation, while Jews are literally the spawn of Satan. There's a scant few who are able to do the introspection necessary to adopt even a white supremacist form of Islam
>>2571336>Also side note, the black sun is not a symbol of Norse/Germanic Heathenry but something entirely invented by the SS. The "ancient traditions" Wotanists call back to are shit that's a couple hundred years old at mostYes, I learned that a while back. It seems that a lot of "trad" stuff is of recent vintage. They try to create a future miserable for everyone because they yearn for a past that never existed in the first place.
>>2571341
>While it may seem to be a smart money move, it can result in a costly productivity and innovation lag…
ok
>…for the economy.
lmao
>>2571312its honestly crazy how the same mfers that spam memes about NPCs and escaping the matrix have a pathological need to be absorbed into somekind of ingroup be it a religion,nation or military. Funniest part is DnD groups at the FLGS have more an actual organic community than all these dipshits converting for what amounts to twitter aesthetics.
>>2571312Dudes literally converting to try to chase some dream of le heccin' trad family that they just aren't gonna get.
Like unironically rather than going "trad" if they want to start a family they should just get involved in youth groups or some after-church activities and meet people there. I can absolutely guarantee that some Protestant Parish where a reverend wears Khakis and plays guitar mass has a way higher chance of having some young women involved than Conservative Orthodoxy or some TradCath churches.
Then again these guys want to LARP that they're worshipping the God-Emperor from 40k. I think they cant be Prots like their Boomer grandparents 'cause it isn't "serious" or "based" enough.
>>2571321Yeah but Trump is objectively a bottom
>>2571341
You can't even hold on to phones that long because the security updates stop coming and then scammers steal your money.
>>2571341
make a new phone with headphone jack, microsd card, removable battery, and gnu/linux, and i will buy it immediately
>>2571349providers will never extend service to such devices. if they own the network infrastructure they can exclude anyone not buying the "official" hardware. they'll phase out dumb phones soon too
>>2571312my understanding is that the antiochian orthodox church that these chinlets are going to is primarily christian arab orthodox but for various reasons its easier to convert to than greek or romanian orthodoxy
>>2571351I have a pinephone pro running debian with an open source firmware that i flashed on the modem. It works, but it's very slow
>>2571341
>WHY DO YOU STILL HAVE THE PHONE
>WHY HAVEN'T YOU FILLED THE JUNKYARD WITH DEVICES WHOSE MINERALS WERE MINED BY AFRICAN CHILDREN
>WHY DO YOU STILL HAVE THE PHONE
>OUR FORCED UPDATES LITERALLY SLOW IT DOWN
>PLANNED OBSOLESENCE AND ARTIFICIAL SCARCITY WAS SUPPOSED TO GUARANTEE US PROFITS EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T PAY YOU ENOUGH TO BUY A NEW PHONE
>THIS IS THE WORST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO US
>PLEASE DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES EAT THE TARRIFF AND BUY A MORE DURABLE CHINESE PHONE INSTEAD
>>2571352> but for various reasons its easier to convert to than greek or romanian orthodoxyInteresting. Why is it easier?
always be purity testing
>>2571346TradCaths and Orthodoxy have higher quality women then the born again virgin protestants.
also protestants are intolerable
>>2571356I think longevity in design is a really underrated aspect of Socialism’s efficiency over Capitalism.
Like I’ve used this example before, but Farmers are getting fucked over by newer models of tractors that have smart features specifically because capitalists want to make them impossible for an average person to repair. Apple is obsessed with getting people to buy the latest smartphone to the point of sabotaging older models.
I think there should be a “socialist theory of design” that involves—among other things—being as easy to repair for the average person as possible, specifically reduce the need for “specialty” tools wherever possible. Something designed to last long and provide as much value to the individual as possible.
>>2571356from what i've seen of soviet consumer electronics, it'll probably bundle a hefty user manual, repair schematics, the works documentation-wise
>>2571386seeing that stuff always makes me so sad.
What we could have had. :(
>>2571389i once watched a video of a USSR toy synth and watching the guy go through the schematics, and how the toy itself was put together, and the pretty sound it produced, it legit tore something inside me
>>2571259not reading that. the amount of assumptions you have to make to make such a statement confidently with the usual mainstream academic bias on top means you're better off reading tea leaves
>>2571384>>2571384>socialist theory of designthere is such a thing. it's just the normal philosophy of good design than any engineering student in any field is taught. statistical quality control is literally taught in every bachelor engineering curriculum. ironically private interests pushed for it to be introduced to public education in the first place. now they want it forgotten.
>>2571400meant for
>>2571396 which I guess got deleted and re-written
>>2571365Because those other churches function more like a social club for those communities, they're tight knit ethnic networks, not really open for outsiders.
>>2571384Apple really is the fucking worst at these planned obsolescence scam and specialty tools that are incompatible with anything else in the market. If it wasn't for the EU they'd still be selling their expensive as hell chargers.
Genuinely baffling that such a greedy and anti-consumer company is still making billions in profits every year.
>>2571411>Genuinely baffling that such a greedy and anti-consumer company is still making billions in profits every year.because the devices are "simple" and made for dumb people who don't want to learn anything. I don't mean to be condescending, but there are certain kinds of people don't want to learn linux command line, they don't want to even learn windows keyboard shortcuts. I have been on a dev team that was making a super complicated application for an engineering firm, and we kept having sprint meetings with high level employees of that engineering firm, and on a much less regular basis, the actual people who did the work. The people who did the work wanted command line interfaces and keyboard shortcuts, while the executives and board of directors kept getting mad that the app was "too hard" to use and demanded that everything be done through left mouse click only. The idea of having to learn a keyboard shortcut or even supply the application with information about what you want to do by typing out a few words was too much for them. They wanted everything to be "magic" and "one click away" not realizing that this is physically impossible because all labor is
context sensitive and requires
human input to establish the context. These are the kinds of people who use Apple devices, because everything "complicated" is abstracted away. They don't even care about the proprietary nature of everything and are willing to put up with it because they can just throw the device away when they're sick of it and don't care about "right to repair" or anything like that. These are the same kind of people who drive a car for 2 years and trade it in the moment there's any sign of trouble.
>>2571376I mean I think anyone whose involved in the heavily conservative aspects of religion, at least any white person, is just a little touched in the head or "weird". Now settling down with a nice Hispanic girl you met through a regular Catholic Church is about as close as you can get to this conservative fantasy without dealing with a lady who thinks you have to resist the urge to shit because it's sinful or whatever.
honkoid status?
>>2571419that x axis scaling difference between the israel and palestine column…
>>2571419why are they polling groypers but not leftists
>>2571426leftists are irrelvant
>>2571329You speak of leftist infighting. Imperialism isnt leftism. Dick riding orange man isnt leftism.
>>2571384>I think there should be a “socialist theory of design” that involves—among other things—being as easy to repair for the average person as possible, specifically reduce the need for “specialty” tools wherever possible. Something designed to last long and provide as much value to the individual as possibleThis right to repair petite bourgeois minded imperialist whines for better treats and calls this some kind of socialist theory. The imperialist weeps for the amerikkkan farmer and the iphone owning amerikkkan. Socialism is not when imperialists get better treats. Socialism is entirely new mode of production
>>2571427not outside of america, but of course this cannot occur to somebody who says "america first"
>>2571428You're just marginalizing yourself and making yourself irrelevant. There's real politics happening and you have to play the game.
>>2571430what he's saying only gets you marginalized inside of america. the rest of the world exists.
>>2571429It's a poll of Americans posted in /USApol/
Fuck off
>>2571430also moderating your message to avoid "marginalization" is called tailism. the reactionaries never moderate their message
>>2571431Nah saying “it’s actually imperialist to want to be able to repair what you own yourself” is pretty retarded anywhere.
>>2571432it's a poll designed to shill groypers, which is a reactionary psy op to siphon people into yet another reactionary movement that appears counter-hegemonic on the surface but really isn't
>>2571434i was talking about the part of his post that said imperialism isn't leftism. I presume saying that gets you "marginalized"
>>2571430just ignore the schizo they can't be reasoned with
>>2571433Yes they do. They know when to push the envelope and when to dial it back. Leftists put purity spiralling ahead of strategy.
>>2571438>purity spiraling is demanding americans oppose american imperialismok
>>2571438>muh purity spiraling>muh centrist moderation of the message>muh civilityThe Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch04.htm >have zero leverage
>come up to Americans
>make demands
good luck with that
>>2571436No one here has some “pro-imperialist leftism”, it’s literally all one sided accusations based on hyperbole.
Wth is this video OP, i'm way too high for this
>>2571424yeah that was weird
95% of "treatlerite" posters quit posting right before something productive is accomplished
>>2571444>No one here has some “pro-imperialist leftism”America First shills and MAGA communists show up here every day
all my niqqas heil treatler
>>2571444what is this supposed to mean:
>>2571443 other than "might makes right, suck it up thirdies"
>>2571455Deal with it, idealist.
>>2571456>didn't answer the questiontelling on yourself
>>2571455It means the stunning, radical statement, that if you just go up to people and start ordering them around like you've got some power over them you're going to be treated with contempt. Somehow you extrapolate "Grr, I hate the third world!" from that which kind of reinforces my point that this is just insane hyperbole.
>>2571453We've got a Fuentes poster who usually gets told to knock it off and I don't see much in the way of MAGA coms beyond people ironically saying Trump is a based retard. Like no one takes the "JDPON Don" shit seriously.
>>2571464>if you just go up to people and start ordering them around like you've got some power over them you're going to be treated with contemptyou mean like gunboat diplomacy, sanctions, coups, embargoes, invasions, etc.?
>>2571461i met a DPRK refugee once who claimed in the UK and decided to go back
>>2571461Living in the UK does
>>2571468yeah but this guy got deported. the state drew first blood against him, but he is still loyal to that state. inb4 some fuentoid burgersplains that amerikkka first isn't actually nationalism or something.
>>2571467where did anyone argue for gunboat diplomacy?
>>2571467those were actually backed up with force
>>2571471one can conclude that the UK sucks quite easily without remaining slavishly loyal to the empire
>>2571473You can be loyal to a country without being loyal to the regime
>>2571480yeah but these people never make that distinction because they know that if they do, they'll lose all their bloodthirsty nationalist reactionary chauvinist allies who are in fact, uncritically, unconditionally, loyal to the regime, especially when it reinforces the particulars forms of discrimination they prefer.
>>2571479He probably got deported for posting something critical of Israel. The regime is Israel First not America First.
>>2571461there some mexican retard that got deported or fled back to mexico because of a drug trafficking conviction and is now a correspondent for bannon's podcast and one time showed laura loomer around mexico's southern border with guatemala to show the "migrant invasion"
>>2571441>Lenin over Marx As hilarious as it is ridiculous
>>2571483that guy's parents came on a tourist visa and overstayed and never registered him officially or something.
>>2571486Okay but what actually alerted him to the authorities
>The regime is Israel First not America First.
Yeah that's the problem with Americans. They perceive that american IMPERIALISM has become "israel first", and they want american IMPERIALISM to go back to being "america first", like in the heyday of the monroe doctrine. their main issue is who the imperialism is being done for, not the fact that it exists in the first place. that's why "MY COUNTRY FIRST" is just a slogan of chauvinists who want to restore imperial glory, and they specifically choose that slogan instead of another one, because even if some of them have anti imperialist sentiments, they don't want to put those at the FRONT, because then they would lose their reactionary and chauvinist allies. how is this not perfectly clear to you?
>>2571277Well yeah but that's sabotaging the two party system by challenging Trump in a manner incompatible with the Democratic party with looks to radicalize a lot of people. Making trouble at the heart of empire.
So you'll get sensible #resistance instead. Until Trump runs out of term, and then you can look forward to a decade of well-deserved celebratory brunch at home.
>>2571488I don't personally know, and neither do you, therefore we should investigate further instead of doing confirmation bias.
>>2571467>Completely ignore the entire point of what the comment was saying just to huff "WEST BAD!" again.See that's once again proving my point. You don't actually engage with people, you bark orders and throw around insults and threats, then when they point out how dumb that is you filibuster the point by talking about something unrelated and pull some "woe is me, they're all chauvinists" card after.
>>2571495Literally the entire point of the deportations is to remove critics of Israel from US soil. That is barely concealed and has been reported on profusely. It's a reasonable assumption to make.
>>2571494
why is their slogan not "end imperialism". why is their slogan "america first"? because for them, the primary issue, is america's dominance over other nations, rather than other nations dominance over america. it's not a question of the phenomenon of imperialism itself, but who is "first" in imperialism. You can't face this, so you dismiss me with thought terminating cliches and sarcasm.
>>2571499Yeah why is there slogan "Christ is King" and not "trans right are human rights"
That is so fucked up man….
>>2571500i keep talking about imperialism, and you keep deflecting with idpol. the slogan of the fuentes movement is "america first" because they want america to dominate the world. their slogan is "christ is king" because they uphold their particular form of abrahamic brainworms over the islamic and jewish forms of abrahamic brainworms.
>>2571497you attack me harder than the fuentes shill. why is that?
>>2571498the america first crowd wants to increase deportations, even though you are alleging they are the primary targets of ICE.
>america first is a reactionary nationalist slogan that seeks to restore the american empire because their primary issue is not imperialism itself, but that israel has taken over the control room of american imperialism
<ooooooh so you're calling me antisemitic
> no i am saying america first is a reactionary nationalist slogan that seeks to restore the american empire because their primary issue is not imperialism itself, but that israel has taken over the control room of american imperialism
<heh christ is king you fuckin trccn
this guy has no real arguments
>>2571501>the slogan of the fuentes movement is "america first" because they want america to dominate the world. No it's because they want to remove the vast foreign influence network and the current "Israel First" regime.
>>2571504Not for criticizing Israel. Nick Fuentes said on multiple occasions that if we're only going to target Israel critics and he's prefer no deportations at all.
(Reactionary) >>2571491>>2571492Revisionists being childish morons as per usual.
>>2571498if you think about it, the deportations only remove keffiyeh-wearing anti-imperialist criticis of israel, while leaving the "america first" critics of israel in the borders for the most part. the black guy who got deported to the UK is the exception, not the rule. they are filtering the anti-israel movement to remove the actual left elements of that movement, which is why the fuentoid above so smugly declared leftism is "irrelevant" to the anti-israel movement. notice I say anti-israel movement, because, for the left elements, it is an anti-imperialist, anti-genocide movement, while for the right wing elements, it is a movement to restore american supremacy and american control over its own imperialist institutions.
Important announcement:
groypers = smelly greasy faggy social rejects led by mexican halfbreed midget
>>2571507>No it's because they want to remove the vast foreign influence network and the current "Israel First" regime.yes, because their main problem with america's imperialist institutions is that americans are not controlling them, not that they exist int he first place. this is why they want to restore the monroe doctrine. primarily it is the left wing anti-genocide anti-apartheid anti-imperialists protesters of israel who are getting deported, and it is primarily not the fuentoid america-first christian nationalists who are getting deported.
>Not for criticizing Israel. Nick Fuentes said on multiple occasions that if we're only going to target Israel critics and he's prefer no deportations at all.I don't uncritically believe that guy because he is a reactionary nationalist who courted the MAGA deportation crowd for years.
>>2571434You dont get a goddamn thing, boy. You are tailing the petty bourgeoisie by parroting their nonsense.
>>2571502See? This is the “woe is me” thing I’m talking about. I’m not talking to the Fuentes dude because he’s a bore arguing a dumb point.
>>2571516>faggy>halfbreedmy favorite thing is when "leftists" attack the right by appealing to racism and homophobia. i know this is an imageboard but come on. have a real argument about why they are wrong which is what I'm doing.
>>2571521so you let the reactionary have a podium while attacking me instead. any amount of collaboration with empire meanwhile is justified because of "muh realpolitik" and "muh leverage" while people much more vulnerable and much more poorly armed than us fight half-starved in the bleakest conditions in Gaza.
>>2571511truth nuke that the haters will filter
>>2571524Hes a fascist. He thinks proletarians repairing their own iphones is socialism and not imperialism and poverty
>>2571524>”Not responding to an internet Nazi does five genocides!”See, you’ve got idealism on display right here.
>>2571519“You shouldn’t be able to repair anything under communism because that’s reactionary!”
Left-Communism.
>>2571526>”Not responding to an internet Nazi does five genocides!”That's not what I said and you know it.
>>2571531You’re accusing me of collaborating with Empire, you’re a silly man claiming he’s a martyr being “attacked” for mild pushback
>>2571518>yes, because their main problem with america's imperialist institutions is that americans are not controlling them, not that they exist int he first place. Why wouldn't it be? He's never pretended to be an anti-war leftist. Where's the own here?
>I don't uncritically believe that guy because he is a reactionary nationalist who courted the MAGA deportation crowd for years.So you think Fuentes would be happy with a deportation policy that only targets critics of Israel?
>>2571535>”Words are collaboration!”Idealism.
>>2571529>Left-Communism.?????
>>2571533Remember the conversation began with this exchange between two other anons:
>Dick riding orange man isnt leftism.< There's real politics happening and you have to play the game.that was the original topic of discussion, whether collaboration with empire is justifiable on the grounds that "you have to play the game." meanwhile we have literal "America Firsters" who come in here crying because America only became a problem for them after the Israeli lobby gained prominence, as if the 1.5 centuries of slavery, genocide, and monroe doctrine meant nothing. They want to restore THAT. I see "MAGA Communists" and "America First" working together, while the actual anti imperialists, anti capitalists, and anti imperialists are the ones who get oppressed by the state.
>>2571536>Why wouldn't it be? He's never pretended to be an anti-war leftist. Where's the own here?Then why Burger-Firsters struggle so hard when I point out to them that they simply want restore America's grip over the steering wheel of imperialism? Why do they constantly act like the REAL anti-imperialists and deflect with random bigotry and idpol instead of answering very basic questions about the nature of the ideology?
>So you think Fuentes would be happy with a deportation policy that only targets critics of Israel?No he would be unhappy with it obviously, not because of the deportations, but because of who it targets, just like he is fine with imperialism, as long as Americans are in control. Stop pretending to be confused by this when I have been perfectly clear 10 times.
>>2571538He's calling anon a Bordigist.
>>2571542>He's calling anon a Bordigist.I know, just confused as to why
>>2571458(and he never did)
>>2571529The proletarian demanding the "right" to repair their own cell phone with scavenged parts is poverty, not socialism. Right to repair is a petty-bourgeois demand. The proletarian does not own tractors. The prole says the farmers can get fucked. In no country do Communists fight for right to repair. In Communist China, there is no right to repair because the mechanisms of the Communist market system ensure all things you want here
>>2571384 but you never get this until imperialism is destroyed.
>>2571542>this person who calls himself a nationalist seems to be acting like every other nationalist everThe only person struggling to understand is you
>>2571549They won't admit they are nationalists because their entire thing is co-opting anti-imperialism. I am pointing this out and you are pretending I am the confused one. Notice how you dont' answer my questions either, you deflect and use the same deceptive conversationa tactics as them.
>>2571551You think they want to bring back slavery. You are extremely confused.
America: Where the bar is so low it makes the core of the earth look like heaven!
>>2571554
>violent firebug
Orkin can handle it.
>>2571553>lying againI said
they want to restore America's control over imperialism. They perceive that the American imperialism has been taken over by the Israelis. They want to
restore American control over imperialism without destroying imperialism. I want them to confess this but they deflect, because their political project depends on deceiving people. You say this is obvious and that I am "confused by them." I am not confused, I see right through them. I am pointing out what they are and you are fighting me harder than you will ever fight them.
>>2571554
nobody likes mentally ill criminals but you can throw all the mentally ill criminals in jail that you want. you can execute them for all I care. but your society will continue to generate more of them because your society is structured in such a way that it produces mental illness and crime. your prisons are also torture dungeons ran by supremacists and gangs which turn bad people worse.
Wow my post got deleted for asking that question and I got banned. Asking if 72 arrest is too much is reactionary according to most. You guys are insane
>>2571562According to mods*
>>2571558They think america is winning though. In their minds Russia is losing
>>2571538It’s absolutely infantile to claim “being able to repair products you use is imperialism”.
>>2571543Again, you’re acting like an idealist purity spiraling over nothing. There’s literally nothing wrong with saying a guy should be able to repair a tractor with his own tools. That you’re fighting on this and declaring it “fascism” or “petite-bourgeois” or some other offense to the senses is showing a total infantile politics.
>>2571542This conversation between the two of us is on the topic of hyperbole and how you’ll claim just about anyone is collaborating with or pro-imperialism if they disagree with you. And every time we have a point where we can get to the crux of that matter—such as you falsely accusing an anon of saying “might makes right, the third world can get fucked”—you dodge the question and move on to some unrelated topic. I point out that the anon in question isn’t saying anything that can be misconstrued as that unless you’re intentionally acting in bad faith and you make some unrelated tangent about “well what about all the bad stuff America did.”
Which gets to the topic we’re discussing, or rather I’m trying to and you’re dodging: you’re not remotely acting in good faith. You’re pointing at others on the Left and saying “actually you’re the enemy”—and don’t try to dodge again by claiming “I’m not pointing to anyone on the left, just imperialists and chauvinists”. Sure someone who actually reads and understands Marxist theory can brush you off as silly, but the new and the naive might make the mistake of taking you seriously and being pushed out by actions, or God forbid you gain some purchase in the movement and push it towards even greater irrelevance.
Theres no compelling evidence that there are armies of conscious imperialists and chauvinists that, through clever rhetoric, seek to change the content of Leftism fundamentally. Theres plenty of evidence of people purity spiraling over harmless issues.
The CIA wants you to repair your own tractor. Don't fall for it.
>>2571312I live not far from one of these Orthodox churches. Not a large one, but was walking my dog past it around Easter and saw a group of young guys who looked like that hanging around. Not a large group, like 4-5 guys.
>>2571418Knew one guy who actually converted to Orthodoxy and "weird" would be a good descriptor. He had been doing some crazy syncretic LARP stuff (just bouncing around left and right-wing groups like a game of pong) while also struggling with severe depression. He told me had attempted to rope multiple times. He had also traveled to the Middle East and joined the Kurds (the Iraqi ones) to fight ISIS, which was true (I've seen a pic) but not sure what happened there, or whether he did any actual fighting. Wars attract crazy people and many of them get kicked out. I was a bit concerned about him, and he made me nervous, but I came to the conclusion he was really just lost. Hope he's doing okay.
>>2571319I wander into them occasionally, even though I'm not religious. One of the last ones was this German Catholic church in the nowhereseville town of Lindsey, TX which has neo-Byzantine architecture. There's basically nothing in the town, not even a grocery store (other than a Dollar General) but there's this impressive church. But people from the surrounding larger towns go to it.
>>2571510Well there's also being anti-Israel and then there's being pro-Palestine, and usually those things are intertwined, but that's not necessarily the case for these right-wing types. There's the Palestinian diaspora as well. The few times I've really seen pro-Palestine stuff in the U.S. first hand, it was those people who give the movement their language, and then left-wing activists.
>>2571561Is America first against American imperialism? No! Are they against American imperialism controlled by Israelis? Yes! What do they want? To restore American imperialism under American control! Did I explicitly say they "want to restore slavery?" No. I said the era of American imperialism prior to Israeli influence is not something they have a problem with. i.e. it doesn't bother them. The reason it doesn't bother them is because during that era, American imperialism was under American control.
fixed typo >>2571571>>2571571>Did I explicitly say they "want to restore slavery?" No.Yes, actually. You said that.
>>2571567>Theres no compelling evidence that there are armies of conscious imperialists and chauvinists that, through clever rhetoric, seek to change the content of Leftism fundamentally.This is literally what the MAGAcom and groyper psy ops are all about, to channel growing anti-imperialist sentiments into nationalist movements for the restoration of American control over American imperialism. They deliberately misdiagnose the problem as "Things got bad once Israel started puppeteering us" instead of "Imperialism must be stopped, regardless of which nationality is in control of imperialism."
Communists oppose both imperialism and Israel.
Groypers oppose Israel without opposing imperialism.
MAGAcoms literally tail reactionaries.
DSA tail reformist collaborationists in the Democratic party.
You say there is no large sentiment, but I see American youth gravitating towards what Engels called "Reactionary socialism" in the case of the groypers and MAGAcoms, and towards what he called "Bourgeois socialism" in the case of the DSA. (pic related from Principles of Communism, 1847)
This is a movement to restore american supremacy and american control over its own imperialist institutions, not a movement to oppose imperialism! That is what I am fighting, alongside the narrative that collaboration is justifiable in the name of realpolitik.
>>2571575Answer my question:
Do groypers want to abolish american imperialism, or do they simply want end Israeli control over American imperialism?
My point, stated in about 20 posts so far, is they only want to restore American imperialism to American hands, not get red of imperailism altogether. You are semantically getting hung up on one post instead of answering any of my questions because you are acting as a defense attorney for these reactionaries. You will not answer anything I say that ends in a question mark, instead attempting to "turn the tables on me" through short deflective posts that you hope people will read because they are shorter and more "to the point" than my posts. reactionaries always rely on these tactics: oversimplification, accusation, deflection, false dichotomy.
>>2571587They never claimed to seek to abolish American imperialism.
>>2571589yes, because their whole thing is to misdiagnose the problem, to siphon growing anti-imperialist sentiment into a nationalist reactionary movement.
>>2571587>you are acting as a defense attorneyI will not tolerate this lawyerphobia
>>2571562I answer your question here:
>>2571560 >>2571591Their whole thing is to misdiagnose the problem, to siphon growing anti-imperialist sentiment into a nationalist reactionary movement.
>>2571593The anti-war movement has been dying on it's ass for almost 20 years now.
Given that it didn't accomplish anything then it's safe to assume it won't accomplish anything in the future.
>>2571554
I've seen one start a fire on the tracks of the subway. The conductor had to come out with a fire extinguisher.
Don't have a car so I'm on public transportation all the time, it really does feel like a rolling homeless shelter.
But jails are overcrowded as it is, how are you going to do that for all of them?
>>2571597therefore, what?
>>2571614Therefore you mourning whatever "siphoning" you think is happening (it isn't) is pointless
>>2571615Are you "America First" or a communist? Be honest.
>>2571621I'm just as communist as you are
>>2571612lay off the babble and say what you really mean
>>2571622Are you
>implyingwe're both communist
or are you
>implyingneither of us are communist
>>2571581>This is literally what the MAGAcom and groyper psy ops are all about, to channel growing anti-imperialist sentiments into nationalist movements for the restoration of American control over American imperialism. They deliberately misdiagnose the problem as "Things got bad once Israel started puppeteering us" instead of "Imperialism must be stopped, regardless of which nationality is in control of imperialism."I’ve got no love for the “MAGA com” types but I think their influence is vastly overstated, being a mostly online movement with no real ties to the class struggle. I’ve got no problem if you want to oppose them, my contention is mostly with the tendency on this board to accuse just about anyone of imperialism and chauvinism with slim evidence. If a person says our state puts Israel before the people then I’m inclined to agree, if they’re talking to people who are sympathetic to nationalist rhetoric and say as an aside that we’re funding Israel genocidal campaign while people in this country sleep on the streets then that’s useful rhetorically, it links national issues to international ones. But if they simply dismiss that we’re funding a genocide and make the issue that we’re supporting another nation then they’re not elevating peoples’ consciousness.
>Communists oppose both imperialism and Israel.Agreed
>MAGAcoms literally tail reactionaries.Agreed.
>DSA tail reformist collaborationists in the Democratic party.The collaboration is debatable, I would argue that the DSA can be weighed as being more opposed to Israel than supportive.
>>2571633>if they simply dismiss that we’re funding a genocide and make the issue that we’re supporting another nationThat isn't the groyper argument.
>>2571634the groyper defender has logged back on
>>2571622dodged another question award
>>2571636Do you want to report me to the mods or something? Go ahead. It takes 1 minute for me to change IP.
>>2571637
it doesn't have to be the same exact reactionary socialists engels was talking about, the parallel today is people who seek to reverse the developments which led to the current era and restore and an earlier version of America. The essence of all reaction is to restore an idealized version of the past in the name of an class who have lost their former status, rather than create a new society in the name of a class which never had status to begin with.
>>2571639no I want you to answer my question. If I wanted to report you to mods I would have already done that.
>>2571643
>Reactionary ""Socialists"" were simply anti-capitalists who hated Capitalism because they basically wanted Aristocratic/church power instead and saw Capitalism (and in general industrialization) as a corrupting force
yeah and America First is led by a tradcath catboy who says Christ is King and wants America in the hands of a Christian theocracy instead of a zionist bourgeoisie. do you not see the parallels there?
>>2571643
A chunk of people in this thread hates ACP due to personal animosity towards Haz going back years when he used to lurk here
>>2571652it's not personal animosity, he's a reactionary whose positions include:
>conservatives are the real revolutionaries>leftists are neo nazis and degenerates>women should be divided, not united>having sex should make you feel sick>ethical landlords are allowed into the ACP>being gay makes you imperailist>being a lesbian makes you imperialist>being bisexual makes you imperialist>being trans makes you imperialist>"MAGA" communism>Marx was a monotheist>Dialectical materialism is Islamic>Christians, Muslims, and Jews should team up with Communists against degenerate AtheistsHe is not a Marxist-Leninist, but a religious and reactionary cult leader whose uses the Aesthetics of Communism as a window dressing for an ideology that is fundamentally Nationalist and Heidegerrian by his own admission.
>>2571640To expand on what this anon said, Not only are they always going to bat for the national and petty bourgeois that have been feeling the squeeze since around the middle of last century, they, like the moronic strain of third worldism they claim to oppose, love trotting out a version of the "the US has no class of proletariat" meme except with the twist of claiming that only a vague "culturally conservative" section of tradespeople and "self employed contractors" constitute the proletariat.
>>2571654Really begs the question, why do so many reactionary cult leaders choose to co-opt Communist aesthetics and language, despite the clear mismatch between their cults' openly and radically idealist, religious, socially regressive, economically liberal views?
Furthermore, why do so many gulluible suckers fall for such "communist" cults like Haz's ACP, the Avakian Revcoms, and the British CPGB-ML? I simply do not get it.
>>2571660
>Yeah and they're not woke which much of Leftypol (including the mods) absolutely adhere too over actual Socialism and/or Communism.
it's more than that they're "not woke" and I explained above what their explicitly reactionary positions were but you selectively ignored that post.
>>2571559
Everything you say is a lie. You dont care about american workers. You are libertarian. You've already spoken for the kulaks. Workers dont care if american kulaks get scammed. The struggle for american bourgeois to purchase proprietary tools and parts is innately a fascist struggle(stop being hysterical)
>>2571666At the end of the day I do sort of think people falling into this shit can in part be blamed by other organizations failing and/or being destroyed
>>2571669
>I think you have to take this stuff with a massive grain of salt. Haz is first and foremost a edgy streamer doing streaming content to appeal to gymbros.
he's also the leader of an ostensibly serious "communist" party which you are actively defending, and go on to defend in the very next sentence:
>Also even if they are the ACP positions. Who cares?
Because communism isn't about "ethical landlords" and he answered the question about whether ACP members could be "landlords" in his capacity as chairman of that party… and also why are reactionary gymbros and small business owners and landlords his audience anyway if he's a "communist party" leader? Why is his comrade Jackson Hinkle going on podcasts and saying women should listen to their husbands and only be allowed to vote the way their husbands tell them?
>The Western left is a dead counter culture.
That's a problem to fix, not a problem to exacerbate by going over to reactionaries posing as communists.
> As long as the ACP have decent economic positions, which they do,
"it's ok to be a landlord in the ACP" is not a "decent economic position," it's thoroughly reactionary and you know it.
> I could not give a shit about what they say about gay people or islamic bullshit
Marxism is materialist, it is not religious. Lenin fought religion. And no, gay people are not automatically imperialist just for being gay, which is his position… you are saying you essentially don't care if he uses reactionary identity politics to scapegoat people as long as he has "decent" economic "positions" such as "landlords can be in the ACP."
You are a reactionary defending reactionaries.
>>2571680
>Western Socialism is entirely a counter-culture. That is the reality. There is no serious Western Socialist/Communist movement. The only politics the vast majority of Western leftists actually care about is Identity Politics
you are doing identity politics yourself when you say you don't care if the ACP scapegoats people on the basis of their identity as long as they have "decent economic positions" (which they don't, they say small business owners and landlords can be "communist" party members).
You are a reactionary taking a reactionary situation and saying it is destined to get more reactionary because "the left is dead." You are declaring the left dead because you WANT the left to be dead. you want to kill what remains of the left and elevate the right so you are pushing that narrative. it is evident in who you defend/endorse and who you attack/dismiss.
>>2571666>Furthermore, why do so many gulluible suckers fall for such "communist" cults like Haz's ACP, the Avakian Revcoms, and the British CPGB-ML? I simply do not get it.Cult like social tactics are difficult to scale and replicate beyond a handful of devoted members because the leader, group and it's personal invasiveness often has limited appeal to average people. Normal political parties also don't want to bother dealing with controlling member every thought and action because it's cost lot of energy when they are trying to accomplish something beyond the cult itself. Problem is leftist parties and activities are actively sabotaged in the west so the only ones who survive are the smaller cults.
>>2571687yep, and the cults themselves are used by the feds to break up the real parties. which is why larouchites would go to the meetings of other parties and start fist fights back in the day, to get the police called on the meetings and break them up.
>>2571680
>I mean for crying out loud, even here, half the shit you're criticising the ACP for has nothing to do with Socialism at all and are just bog standard "progressive" liberal moralist nonsense
I'm criticizing them for doing idpol. they are doing reactionary idpol. they scapegoat gay peple and say they are automatically imperialist for being gay. that's not true. that's just idpol.
ok buddy
Is it worth it for burger proles to reproduce anymore? Between the massive expense and financial/political/ecological collapse?
>>2571587After having done my own investigation into the issue, Groypers see America as being controlled by Israel, so any victory for america is really a victory for Israel, they cite Israel getting bigger over time and America getting browner over time as proof of this.
The surprising part is they believe in a kind of Defeatism, they think America needs to take a tactical loss followed by a period of civil unrest in order to transition away from "jewish control" to "something else".
>>2571643
>they basically just treat left activism as their own hobby scene that they desperately want to gatekeep
That may be true, but the ACP is just as extreme with making "communism" out to be some kind of personal lifestyle/culture identity, but they're just doing it from a different direction.
>>2571660
>I think Infrared are extremely unprofessional streamers with the brains of teenagers. But I don't think of them as a psyop.
Well then we might disagree about them in some ways, but can also reach some common ground about them in other aspects.
>>2571660
>Like I said before, I don't think Marxists are super psyoped much at all, it's more that Western leftism is just mostly lifestylism/counter-culture movement that is controlled by a cartel of "acceptable" predictable LARP parties who do activism as their hobby, and they move very quickly to terf out opposition. They don't want competition at certain demos and whatever.
I think there's some truth in this, but it also varies a lot locally. In my own area, this wasn't so much of a problem, and there was only one group (some culty Trots) who everyone else agreed to freeze out of any coalitions (and there were reasons for this). But generally everyone got along, but the whole scene was very small and everyone more or less knew each other, because there just wasn't that many people. Like literally a "party" locally would have members in the single digits, maybe two digits at best, which would be really good with the DSA being the biggest of all.
>I know for fact anarkiddies glow, but I think this is because they engage in property damage which makes them much more of a target, same with the Environmental movement which basically all Environmental direct action is considered literally "Eco-terrorism" in law these days. So Anarchists and Environments basically come under survellience as terrorist groups, rather than the cointelpro of the past.
I think that's pretty common, and it appeared to be the case when I've seen them in person. They weren't "feds" but they were being tailed by feds wherever they went.
>The idea that shit like the ACP or even CPUSA, DSA etc are "glowies" reeks of leftist narcissism at this point.
Well it's a way of trying to discredit other groups. The ACP seems to be pretty transparently trying to find sponsors to get money, and they have looked to Russia for that. But I feel it's less "psyoppy" than grifter behavior. Helali for example strikes me as a con artist more than anything else.
>>2571680
>Western Socialism is entirely a counter-culture. That is the reality. There is no serious Western Socialist/Communist movement.
I think the basic problem is that there's just no social-revolutionary movement to begin with. People think parties make revolutions, but it's actually people in a nation that make a revolution, and that's what provides revolutionary parties with a mass base. It wasn't the "Communist Party of China" that was the primary historical agent that made the revolution happen, y'know? It was the Chinese people making a revolution during a state of crisis in the society. The party then emerges and can shape or guide it at critical moments, but a lot of people get the order or causal sequence flipped around.
Actually the ACP people think America is ripe for a revolution. They've openly talked about this and apparently it's MAGA that has convinced them that this the case, so they should adapt communist ideology to MAGA people and mixing in right-wing things into their ideology. That's also why they moved into this party formation. A lot of this is also based on their podcast audience. They think that's the way you appeal to people to organize them. But I find this highly dubious because you're basically a consumer of a cultural commodity or aesthetic style, and it fits perfectly with capitalist politics because one just sets oneself up with an audience and then tries to turn that into a political movement.
>>2571697
>Who cares, Idpol should not be on any Communists radar about anything. Trans, gay people can get thrown into asylums for all I fucking care if I get a Socialist economic system.
I think you're expressing frustration and it's understandable. But to get a "real movement" going (I mean socialist or communist), you need people who have different styles, and different tastes who are simply not going to agree with either the idpol-type stuff *or* ACP at that aesthetic level. The left is going to need to cut across the existing cultural divides that the capitalist parties play up. As a subsection of that statement, people also don't give a rat's ass about the big differences between these miniscule leftist parties or the "failure of Bernie Sanders" or whatever. Like you have to blame capitalism, yes, but people have to pay rent and their wages stink.
Marx BTW criticized other radicals in his time because Marx believed in drawing attention to the *undeveloped* state of the German proletariat while others flattered "the national feeling and the status-prejudice of the German artisans in the crudest possible way — which, admittedly, is more popular."
You also look at Morena in Mexico, they went the complete opposite direction of everything I've just described. They built a movement first BEFORE moving into a party. The party's name is an abbreviation for "National Regeneration Movement." They were taking over the country and then formed a party because they reckoned they could win. I don't just mean a city council somewhere, but the presidency. Some of the older people in it were communists who lived in a situation in the 1970s where they risked being grabbed, shoved into a helicopter and given a "free helicopter ride" over the ocean (for real).
>>2571700Or… they follow whatever Fuentes says and he's an opportunist/asset and the contradictions account for his and his handler's interests in shaping the acceptable limits of antisemitism.
>>2571693
I seriously doubt your claim is correct, and you have to prove your claim. I do not have to prove it wrong. That's how proof works. If I make a claim like "I have 10 legs" I have to prove that claim, nobody else has to disprove it. But what's the use of appealing to the "characteristics" of another country's socialism? America has gone through struggles to recognize the rights of gay people and those struggles should not be reversed and gay workers should not be ostracized from communism. You say you are against "idpol" but being against idpol means being both against the liberal forms of idpol, which is interclass, and the reactionary forms of idpol, which seek to scapegoat groups and excommunicate them on the basis of their identity, which is exactly what Haz does with gay people when he claims they are imperialist by default.
>>2571697
>There is no serious communist movement in the west lmao.
OK then that's a problem we have to fix. but earlier you said the ACP has "decent" economic positions, but they don't. They accept landlords into their "communist" party. You have yet to say what is "decent" about that. Meanwhile you said you don't care if he scapegoats gay people, but there's a difference between rejecting liberal idpol, and being indifferent to the reactionary act of scapegoating people on the basis of their identity alone. He's not even going exclusively after bourgeois gay people, he's just claiming that all gay people are bourgeois. that is just as heinous as claiming all people of a certain race or religion are bourgeois. It objectively is idpol, and if you do not reject it, then that means you accept certain forms of idpol, namely the reactionary, discriminatory and scapegoating forms of it. Marxism is also materialist, and not religious, so you "not giving a shit" that a self described "commuist" party is dragging the communism through the mud and confusing people about what communism is seems fishy to me. You say you don't care because "there is no REAL communism in the west" but you simultaneously defend ACP revisionism and landlordism as "decent." That is suspicious!
>Because Communist parties have always been built on the back of class traitor bourgiousie. Pretty much the entire CPSU and CPC were made up by petite bougies, former aristocrats, landlord families etc. Engels himself was a factory owner, Marx himself said that Communists should be finance bros.
There's a difference between making exceptions for class traitors and actively encouraging landlords to join, but you already said they weren't communist so why are you using this argument to defend them? Suspicious!
>Could not give a shit about social issues. Not Communism.
Mao said "women hold up half the sky."
Hinkle says "women should obey their husbands"
you shrug and say "this is a social issuee. Teehee!" your indifference to their reactionary bullshit is telling. Communists have always sought equality between men and women since the time of Marx and Engels.
>Their economic program is 1000x better than any major western party today, which is the only thing that matters.
They are not communist but you support them because their economic program of letting landlors into their party is "1000x better" than other parties? suspicious!
>So was Engels not a real Socialist?
Not what I said, you are deflecting by comparing Engels to a party you have already said is not even communist. Suspicious!
>Like anybody here actually engages in materialism and not fucking christianity rebranded under a red flag.
You have to back that accusation up rather than simply making it in defense of a reactionary cult.
>I mean you're complaining about "boo they hate trans people" literal anti-materialist pomo gnostic wackadoodle then crying about not following materialism.
They actively scapegoat people and say they are automatically bourgeois based on their identity alone. How is that not reactionary and a deliberate attempt to miseducate people about what class fundamentally is. They are literlally turning class consciousness into identity politics by saying people are bourgeois on the basis of their sexuality rather than their relation to the means of production. And you support this scapegoating by dismissing it as unimportant or irrelevant or claiming that it's "liberal idpol" to care at all about reactionary scapegoating and miseducating people on what class fundamentally is. They let in landlords and they keep out gay workers. That's reactionary.
>I doubt this is what he actually believes, most likely Haz believes that the LGBT movement works largely as an arm to push Western Imperialism. Which it literally does. They literally drop rainbow bombs on Gaza and Yemen and "muh lgbt" crap is used all the time to attack global south countries with massive liberal support.
the neoconservative christian bush administration dropped bombs on iraq and afghanistan and liberal bourgeoisie who happened to be gay also did it. now you pretend ONLY they liberal gay bourgeoisie do this, and somehow this justifies scapegoating gay workers and saying "they are imperialist for being gay"
>>2571703 (me)
And currently that means dropping the gas-the-jews attitude and the other retarded, terminally online stuff what built his audience, in order to appeal better to normies and leech from left antizionism
>>2571703>they follow whatever Fuentes saysthat is what nick says
>>2571702> Some of the older people in it were communists who lived in a situation in the 1970s where they risked being grabbed, shoved into a helicopter and given a "free helicopter ride" over the ocean (for real).did that happen in mexico?
>>2571711
>But those struggles occurred under Capitalism and were fought under a Capitalist regime for Capitalist rights given to the LGBT community by the Capitalist power structure of the Capitalist regime.
That's a shaky argument. It's like a "genetic fallacy" where something is seen as invalid simply because of where it originated. Also, every socialist movement in history has also had organize inside capitalist societies. Capitalists have also granted demands that were often made by socialists like collective bargaining rights. Not saying gay rights are incompatible with capitalism or is inherently "revolutionary," and you're not saying gays should be discriminated against.
But there are people who we run into on the internet (anyways) who are like "well that happened under capitalism so therefore it's capitalism and therefore it's not socialist." But then they'll make an excuse for billionaires existing in China. Reminds me a bit of Salafists who are like "well that's Western so it's haram."
>>2571706The antizionist left accomplished nothing in 50 years.
Palestine would be in much better shape now if the "virulent antisemite" Pat Buchanan had won the Presidency in 1992.
>>2571715I wonder how much the burger and mexican bourg were in communication about butchering that generation of the Mexican left in order to curtail communication between them and the communist leaning section of the Chicano movement.
trump just designated the muslim brotherhood as a terrorist organization.
>>2571721DSAsisters not like this
>>2571724Crazy that the MB is a terrorist organization, while Betar (founded as a Jewish analogue to the Hitler Youth) is telling the White House who to expel from US soil.
But Jewish Supremacy isn't real.
>>2571729
What book are you reading right now
>>2571721is that the fucking Simpsons Fortnite map? they're cleaning? pffffft
>>2571719
>how do you feel about thing that is factually incorrect
2 Texas Men Plotted Coup of Haitian Island to Enslave Women and Children, U.S. Sayshttps://archive.is/20251122230358/https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/22/us/texas-men-haiti-island-takeover-plot.html#selection-501.0-501.83lmfao
this is so fucking ridiculous frankly i'm a little suspicious. i think maybe they're being set up for something else.
>>2571731
That's more of a pamphlet but okay.
>>2571733
>The problem with the thinking of "retaining Capitalist cultural gains under Socialism" is every major "LGBT" organization in America is basically an extension of the bourgeois's interests and cannot be relied upon to actually protect LGBT individuals or be our "allies" during a revolution.
If you're talking about the Human Rights Campaign then I definitely agree with you. That's the one with the blue square logo with the yellow equals (=) sign in it. It's so bourgeois, you really have no idea. They literally have "black tie dinners." Or GLAAD (they've also had some financial scandals recently BTW). But I don't see that as the same thing as being gay or what that movement was as it developed in the 1970s-today. It's a strained analogy but take the category of African-Americans, on the one hand, and Al Sharpton's organization on the other hand. They're not one and the same thing. One is a population and the other is political machine that is based in Harlem. It's not like socialism is about reversing the gains of the civil rights movement, y'know? Like re-segregating the population by race and depriving blacks of any meaningful way of participating in the government? Nobody would say that outside of some weird nazbol freaks. But there are certain progressive aspects of capitalism.
>These organizations actively undermine the interests of workers in order to get closer to Capital and build influence through elevating "pro-Capitalist gays" into positions of power
Just look at the secretary of the treasury (evil chad gay). I don't know if those organizations had a direct role in that… maybe indirect… but I think it does say that gays (especially if you're rich) have been accepted into the superstructure in this country, at this point. Trans people get shit on a lot and they have actually been attacked in an organized and politicized way, and I think leftists need to back them up, but this is why I don't claim that being gay = revolutionary (somehow by default). I don't think being revolutionary is like some ontological "status." It's absurd.
But the Democrats also play up the apparent threat of the Republicans to gay marriage to frighten LGBT people into voting for them, and it's a specific… bureaucratic… part of the Democratic Party that does this. It's the centrists but that ideology from a specific social base and local/state political machines. They try to heighten these fears about identity because they don't want to adopt positions that will alienate the money. But I was telling some of my liberal family members (and also people online) recently that the Supreme Court was not going to do anything. They were, like, the Supreme Court is going to BAN GAY MARRIAGE 4-EVER. And I was like "nah, I don't think so." Or at least I hoped not. Then the Supreme Court told Kim Davis to go back to Kentucky or wherever she's from.
Honestly think that whole thing was about trying to misdirect liberal lawyer groups (ACLU etc.) to get them to waste their resources, while the real weight of conservative legal power apparatus is aimed at immigration. At any rate, they didn't know Bennet is gay. He wasn't praised by the Human Rights Campaign as some big breakthrough because he's a Republican, and it's not like the Republicans praise him for being gay either. They don't care. At the least people at the top don't really care.
>This is why "protecting the rights of marginalized groups" is often US imperialism's go-to excuse for regime change in other countries, and its become a pretty obvious tell among Leftists that America is gonna invade a country imminently if they're suddenly showing "concerns" about that country's minorities.
They do make that excuse from time to time, but it's not required. I haven't heard the Trump administration say that vis-a-vis Venezuela. They're using "drugs" as a horseshit excuse in this case. Now there might be some neolibs who will also be like "what about the gays in Venezuela." I don't know who that will convince now. Also the U.S. is willing to deal with plenty of countries that are much more repressive than China is in terms of sexual orientation. China periodically cracks down on LGBT media, but we sell weapons to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan where homosexual activity is illegal and pretty heavily persecuted by the society.
>I don't think we have to revert the gains made by gay people under Capitalism because they're culturally entrenched at this point, but I also don't think those gains should be projected onto places like China that should develop their own organic LGBT movement with Chinese characteristics.
I'm glad we agree. I don't want to impose my politics on China. Also, I don't think it will work. That said, I'm not Chinese. It's not up to me to reverse or advance whatever gains are happening in China. It's up to them. But I can make up my own mind and can think for myself and try to be responsible for my own politics, and I don't have to defer to the Chinese as some hypothetical Big Other which requires my submission and humiliation.
>To be honest though I'm not very invested in this argument
Well I don't want to argue with you either!!!
>>2571411> Apple really is the fucking worst at these planned obsolescence scamobjectively false, Apple keeps updating iOS for 5-7 years after the device release whiel Android devices get 2-3 versions at best
I'm still usimg my 2017 Macbook Air which is only laggy because of the 3rd party webshit like Slack
I used my 2014 Mini well into 2020 for development
and with M chips Apple shit is the best bang for the buck nowadays, just don't buy the latest model and get 2-3 year old discounted instead
>>2571711
ok but I am talking about a fake "communist" party scapegoating minorities and saying they are inherently bourgeois. That is idpol. It is not liberal idpol to reject that scapegoating. It is no different than Lenin being against the Black Hundreds scapegoating Jews or Mao saying women hold up half the sky. Communists don't go out of their way to scapegoat people who aren't necessarily bourgeois and call them bourgeois, while going out of their way to welcome landlords into their party like the A"C"P does.
>BREAKING: Washington’s State Sentencing Guidelines Commission has voted 7–2 to recommend lighter penalties for adults caught in online child-s*x sting operations.
>>2571746Savings status? Federal debt status? Dividend status?
>>2571746DOGE literally just existed to steal public sector data, give it to the private sector, than disband.
>>2571708Cheyenne were mostly based in Minnesota and Eastern parts of American plains and didn't get fully pushed into Wyoming until after the 1700s. Based off that I'm guessing the rest of that map isn't true and is a projection of modern tribal politics.
My store’s truly showing the efficiency of capitalism here.
They decided to send us extra pallets at night. However they don’t want to pay anyone overtime for finishing everything so instead they started assigning shifts from 3pm to 11pm. Since they adopted this there hasn’t been a single night where we haven’t finished the extra pallets by 10:00pm. So most of us are stuck waiting around for an hour doing nothing but facing product so we can get a full shift (and benefits like healthcare and the like).
Now with Thanksgiving week they decided to give us the rest of the morning crew’s pallets, but does this mean we’re working them until 11pm? Nope! So now we got extra pallets blocking everything and have to tell the customers that we don’t have stuff that we actually do because we can’t work the pallets because “that’s for the morning crew!” So the company is basically paying us to do nothing for an hour but not go home because there might be a possibility we could get overtime and so rather than pay anyone for that we’re going to make the most inefficient shifts in the world to ensure that’s not the case.
It’s fucking Kafkaesque. I see stuff I can work but instead I have to stand around and not go home because some genius decided 3 to 11s were necessary.
>>2571777Yes, it's not accurate. Several Nations are missing as well (Wyandotte, Apache, Comanche, Lenape, Seminole, Muscogee, etc…) I just grabbed it off a quick image search. Most wouldn't notice but I'm glad you did.
>>2571754Dear enemy, I think you have gotten right yet again. Our only difference remains our interpretation (Roughly speaking, as far as I can tell: Yours leaning capitalist modernizationist & more ambivalent positive, mine leaning capitalist commodification-degenerationist & more outrightly negative)
Capitalism has transformed erotic behaviour not only by being bringing its commodification to new heights (globalized, financialized & increasingly tech sophisticated prostitution), but also by creating & magnifying direct commodification further (pornography, sex toys & accessories).
It furthers this by increasing societal obsession with erotic behaviour in media, news
& advertising ("sex sells"), most obviously amongst the relatively well to do who have relatively money, time & energy to extract profits & attention from (disproportionately in the traditional imperial core but not only. Its a class & income linked thing above all)
Finally it has also managed to turn erotic behaviour into identities & lifestyles that are themselves then commodified and sold (playing both ends, for and against, with moralistic chastisement should their consumption falter too much).
Its why I think of my position as much more hostile towards the lgbt than your typical conservative or religious identity consumer: Because it opposes so called heterosexuality as well, as key instrument in capitalist degeneration
(Spring break as heterosexual pride, do you remember that? It was your idea. And a fantastic one at that).
It is no coincidence that the degradation has gotten so advanced that marriage is collapsing, childlessness is rising, and above all people in the advanced capitalist are not even entering relationships & having less & less sex. So capitalism openly destroys as it is plunders these domains. Enclosure has been extended to love & intimacy itself.
Socialism, when its advent finally comes, must of course bring these catastrophic afflictions to a final end.
>>2571780This reminds me of the bit from Catch-22 where the farmer is driven mad because he is given subsidies to
not grow food (which is of course a real thing that happens to prevent another dust bowl, but it's also used to ensure food prices don't get too low)
>>2571787>Finally it has also managed to turn erotic behaviour into identities & lifestyles that are themselves then commodified and soldexcept these identities existed and were discriminated against and scapegoated before they were commodified.
Kind of /isg/ but I'm a proponent of the patsoc-centrist (lib) horseshoe theory. Yglesias' grandfather was a CPUSA member in the 1940s btw:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_YglesiasBut actually one of these images is re-worked Patriot Front propaganda.
>>2571787>Its why I think of my position as much more hostile towards the lgbt than your typical conservative or religious identity consumer: Because it opposes so called heterosexuality as well, as key instrument in capitalist degeneration>(Spring break as heterosexual pride, do you remember that? It was your idea. And a fantastic one at that).Thanks. I think you're right about sexuality being commodified into lifestyles and identities which are bought/sold.
>>2571787>It is no coincidence that the degradation has gotten so advanced that marriage is collapsing, childlessness is rising, and above all people in the advanced capitalist are not even entering relationships & having less & less sex. So capitalism openly destroys as it is plunders these domains. Enclosure has been extended to love & intimacy itself.this is a byproduct of dissatisfaction with relationships in general, not LGBT degeneration. People don't have time for relationships. Also if you discriminate against gay people and don't let them get married or adopt because that "erodes muh family values" you only have yourself to blame. Cuba's family code is superior to America's, and you guys always cope that somehow the American libs forced them to do that, even though the American libs can't get that in America.
>>2571708>This looks shopped.yes, it's shopped. it was originally trump putting a redditor over the wall.
>>2571808Sure. I remember the 'this looks shopped' meme but I never saw the original social media post. I've never had any sm account. I don't even have a computer phone.
do these cop summits have any actual purpose? seems more like an exercise in virtue signalling, circle jerking, greenwashing and photo ops
>>2571792No, I want to go home when the work is done, dumbass. Being told I’ve got to stand around for an hour doing nothing but staring at products because there’s a slight chance we might go over the allotted 8 hours if we work our old 2 to 10 shifts is idiotic.
>>2571790The maddening part is that you’ve got this idiotic culture of “You’ve got time to lean you’ve got time to clean”. If you’re getting paid to NOT work it’d be fine if you could just sit back and, I dunno, chat with coworkers or read a book or play some chess, but you’re expected to
look busy. Everyone at every part of this shift knows they’re doing useless horseshit, but we all have to pretend to each other we’re being “productive”. At least when you’re being actually productive you can kind of fall into a flow state and the time goes by; but this is just the longest hour in the store cause you’re doing nothing.
>>2571671
Everything you've said is a lie. You speak of "planned obsolescence" as if it is "easily solved" and not inevitible outcome of imperialism.
You say you dont "cope with long term plans." You have no plan. You just parrot the kulaks against john deere. The worker peasant uses hoe, not million dollar tractor. The proletarian uses huawei, not iphone. You are just another whiner like all of american middle classes. You are petty bourgeois libertarian dick rider because you think the whims of middle class can defy material laws of monopolist production.
>>2571787At some point arguing with people like you isn't worth it and you gotta realize that what you want is fucking stupid, not possible, counterproductive, if you ever said this in public people would call you a piece of shit (you are) and would and should be punched in the mouth for being such an asshole.
You're delusional AND a bigoted piece of shit who deserves actual violence for your opinions. Kill yourself before it's too late and let the rest of the world move on with being normal
>>2571793Note the concept of "sexual orientation" is only a few hundred years old.
The discrimination was part of the process of commodification. First to be commodified was "heterosexuality", with the help of state regulation (perhaps another case of infant industry protection/subsidy).
>>2571813I haven't worked at a grocery store since I was 19. I was just a bagger/cashier/Carts. Not stock. I got out early because I knew that job was a blackhole and I didn't want to be stuck there 10+ years. But I remember when I got cleaning shifts occasionally I was the only one who actually cleaned. Other people who got cleaning shifts would like hide in the bathroom or smoke outside. But I actually liked cleaning, because it got me into the flow. And they would give you 1.5 hours on cleaning in the middle of the shift. So I would take all the trash in the store out, including the deli trash and bakery trash and bathroom trash. I would load it all onto a palette and take it to the trash compactor. And they were super busy so they were thankful I was getting their backed up trash, since it looks pretty bad to customers. But my supervisor got super pissed at me and said "you're not supposed to take their trash out, you're not working for their department!" and I was like "we're all in the same company, we're all in one store, what's the problem?" and she's like "if you run out of things to do while on cleaning shift, go rearrange the shelves by the cashier" which is the stupidest and most pointless fucking task. I'd rather run around like a madman taking all the trash in the store out. They also got on my case for bringing too many carts back. The mindset drove me nuts. People say nobody wants to work and everyone's selfish but I loved helping people when I could and the system they had in place actually prevented that.
>>2571819>Note the concept of "sexual orientation" is only a few hundred years old.that particular term is, the concept itself is not.
>>2571754you know what kills me about these socially-conservative "communist" guys who insist on scapegoating gay people and trans people and calling them imperialists? I'm literally everything they want. I'm a straight white guy with a family. And most of them are just single gym bros who disgust a lot of left leaning women because they're reactionary pigs. And when I push back on their discrimination they always fall back on arguments like "i bet you're a trccn" or "vaxxed?" and other weird shit like that. and that's before they start twisting themselves into pretzels and saying actually it's idpol to be against discrimination and it's anti-idpol to discriminate.
>>2571809it's obviously bernie
>>2571807Its clear you did not understand what I was getting at: Lgbt (the ideology & organizations) is part of overall process of capitalist degeneration of all human relationships: Their identitarianization & commodification.
A part of the process that perhaps comes in towards the end, when process is already quite advanced. Its not a unique or seperate degeneration of its own.
—
I will add that a hint of what socialist future might look like with respect to this is the DPRK, wherein the very notion of sexual orientation does not exist, and therefore, neither does discrimination, prejudice, violence, grifting, etc. on this basis.
—
Anyways, I should take my leave from this thread. I never peaked into it before and it was mistake to fo so now.
Marg Bar Amrika / Θάνατος στην Αμερική.
>>2571821You remind me of me. Staying busy made time fly by, so to speak. Nobody ever told me to slow down, tho. They always came to expect I was willing to bust my ass. Of course, to advance in capitalism depends on who you know, not what you know.. and often who you do, not what you do. They call this brown-nosing meritocracy now. Heh..
>>2571336Yeah they had spoked wheel symbols but the black sun was distinctly nazi christian gematria nonsense.
>>2571830I know exactly what you mean. Thanks for the reply; I don't got much to add to that.
>>2571336Not only that but the very concept of Vril actually comes from a Science-Fiction story of the same name called "Vril: The Power of the Coming Race".
>>2571780>So the company is basically paying us to do nothingAnd you say youre not bourgeois imperialist exploiter
>>2571814>The worker peasant uses hoe, not million dollar tractor. The proletarian uses huawei, not iphone.No, the true people use their hands to dig and their voices alone to call. You are clearly a Vietnamese glasses wearing intellectual who needs to be made into fertilizer.
>>2571814>>2571855>farmers, who own fucking land, are proletarianspeak leftoid
>peasanti think the easiest tell of a massive retard is still thinking theres a peasantry today
>>2571821>>2571830Actually having shit to do at work is a life saver. It’s crazy how Capitalism punishes efficiency. You finish 8 hours worth of work in 8 hours and you get paid for 8 hours. You finish 8 hours worth of work in 7 hours and you get paid 7 hours but with the added expectation you maintain that level of work.
>>2571819>>2571823>Note the concept of "sexual orientation" is only a few hundred years old.if i had to guess, i'd say the concept itself is a consequence of heterosexual normativization. there was no need to even name or describe such a concept if it was deemed "normal"
>>2571843The voice actually makes her look less annoying and aggressive
>>2571843i love these subtweet-esque tiktoks that are meant to address someone or something in particular but it just leaves me guessing at whatever she fucking meant with her lowkey academic lingo. like okay, i'm now acknowledging minorities lived experiences, i dont know whose experience or which minority but trust me, i am doing it.
>>2571356This notion that soviet cell phones would be built to last is ahistorical. The krushchevite and brezhnevite revisionists reinstated capitalism which meant an excess of faulty low quality goods for the people. The soviet union was a technologically stagnent revisionist capitalist monopolist fascist imperialist empire with no mechanism to systemically raise consumer technology. The lack of competition from social fascist monopolism meant zero innovation. There was no consumer soviet smart phone for the same reason there was no consumer soviet pc. This imaginary soviet smart phone is a square circle. That is why the social fascism died and left it to the capitalists to innovate and commercialize cell phones.
>>2571817It's pointless because you get emotional and don't argue the substance of the argument
>>2571864Several books in the New Testament of the Bible explicitly condemns it. So at least in the west, the heterosexual normalization is at least two thousand years old.
>>2571843>>2571869>acknowledging minorities lived experiencesBasically it means you can not question anecdotal evidence when a minority declares something as fact.
>>2571880>Several books in the New Testament of the Bible explicitly condemns it. So at least in the west, the heterosexual normalization is at least two thousand years old.this ignores the centuries of synchretism and slow adoption of christianity. christianity a thousand years ago would have been unrecognizable to you, and the current accepted biblical canon is much more recent than christianity
>>2571880>Basically it means you can not question anecdotal evidence when a minority declares something as fact.well if similar anecdotes keep repeating themselves multiple times from different people belonging to the same minority group, then i'd say there's probably something to it
>>2571559
this is a very silly, panicky mindset that doesn't seriously approach this as an attempt to overhaul the system.
Improving people's lives under capitalism is nice but only useful insofar as it builds legitimacy towards telling people we need a new system. It has no other purpose for us.
>>2571891It’s pure moral purity spiraling. Fucking Marx supported the right to free press despite that in practice being “petite-bourgeois”. But these are idiotic moralists looting Marxist terms.
>>2571882He really doesn't have the sauce anymore.
>>2571885Full adoption of Christianity in the west took time but it become the Roman state religion by 380 while the Catholic Church in 382 held the Council of Rome which created current cannon. Based on that we can assume heterosexual normalization was gaining some traction by the 400s at least.
>>2571890Maybe. But if something is true then there tends to be more evidence than just anecdotes. For example we can see that black people receive higher sentence than white people for the same crimes. That is supporting evidence of racism, at least in the court system.
However, using the same criteria we would be able to see if women get higher or lower sentences for the same crimes as men. That would give support to the theory western women are discriminated against, at least in the court system. Turns out they get lower sentences on average showing preferential treatment.
We really need to wonder why a white western women would promote the idea her "lived experience" is more important than other forms of evidence…
Can someone TL;DR me on why we’re talking about sexual orientation?
>>2571892the issue i take is that it's only a useful thing when it convinces people that they can work together to build a better future, against the will of the current ruling class. If lives are improved in a way that intensifies class antagonism, then it is useful, if lives are improved in a way that reinforces liberal frameworks, then it's not useful.
How come magacom schizo and Felix never fight why does Felix try to shoehorn everyone as a closet American nationalist execpt him?
>>2571418no people who are engaged in religion are the only sensible people.
Its the atheists who have a incoherent world view
Damn! H Rap Brown (Former head of SNCC during its short merge with the BPP) died in prison today after being stuck there since the early 2000s under dubious charges.
>>2571843I'm glad China bans liberals on their social media
>>2571843Most here are racist treatlerite chuds larping as based socialist dengists, so yeah
>>2571916Cancer got him.
As for his charges, long story short some Georgia cops went to arrest him for not showing up to court for two phony charges, these cops get shot by someone driving up to them in a vehicle, Brown flees. Cops claim that Brown shot them and was wounded in the firefight, but the prints didn't match the weapon and Brown wasn't actually shot. Later on while Brown's awaiting trial another guy claims he shot the cops and that he was shot by the police.
Even if Brown did shoot these two Georgia officers, I find it suspicious that he was shuffled off to ADX Florence after a few years in the Georgia state system. Yeah they did eventually move him to one of the specialized federal prison hospitals when his cancer appeared but one wonders if the supermax was intended to keep him out of the picture for the 2008 crash.
>>2571921Is outing Trump as gay how the bourgeoisie will get rid of him much like they did with Ernst Röhm?
>>2571859The Daily Wire people say the same shit. It's not gay people they want to get rid of, it's the "ideology." Like there's a gay ideology. (Maybe all of them are?) But they'll say "transgenderism" as opposed to "transgender people." It's the -ism. It's some ancient gnostic ideology that has cropped up again…
I think one of the ACP guys, Eddie? He said recently that he was a Daily Wire fan and then he was into Bernie and now he's a communist. But maybe he's the same guy! They mimic these people topo, like putting a card table on a college campus with a sign that says "Marxism is not woke, change my mind."
But the reason they do this is because it makes numbers. It gets clicks. Or maybe it does, I dunno. The culture war is the only shit these people care about. But what they're talking about is not actually a big deal for any particular agenda whether conservative or communist. It's perverse.
>>2571933Mao and Castro weren't interesting in talking to those hoes they just fucked them
>>2571801I'm getting Liberty or Death tatted soon. Also want something inspired by Tecumseh
>>2571934>I think one of the ACP guys, Eddie? He said recently that he was a Daily Wire fan ah yes, eddie, midwestern marx, the one reactionaries on here repeatedly insisted to me was "worth listening to" and "isn't as bad as haz and hinkle."
he was more clever than them, for sure, but the reactionary BS is still there.
>and then he was into Bernie and now he's a communist. But maybe he's the same guy! They mimic these people topo, like putting a card table on a college campus with a sign that says "Marxism is not woke, change my mind."I read Haz's full 100-something tweet "thread" about why "Marxism is not woke," which was more patience than he frankly warranted, but I really wanted to hear him out, and it basically came down to this Heideggerian-Duginist ideology of there being "Civilization states" which have these spooky metaphysical aspects which are eternal, unchanging, and make them different from other civilization states, and you have to respect these civilizational "aspects" even if they represent a discriminatory and reactionary superstructure, otherwise that makes you chauvinist/imperialist, even if you're not advocating that NATO bomb the straightness out of them or whatever. Ironically it's pretty close to the "lived experiences" liberal argument people were making fun of above, only applied to entire civilizations that have changed constantly throughout history.
>But the reason they do this is because it makes numbers. It gets clicks. Or maybe it does, I dunno. The culture war is the only shit these people care about. I only talk about culture war shit if I see one of them advocate in favor of some kind if identity-based discrimination. But they always pretend by the end of the argument that they want nothing to do with that and really want something much more nuanced. It's a strategic retreat every time.
> But what they're talking about is not actually a big deal for any particular agenda whether conservative or communist. It's perverse.Exactly. The Eddie Midwestern Marx guy said he had a chip on his shoulder against LGBT because he and his brother's wrestling pictures were posted nonconsensually to some gay porn site, which, that sucks and shouldn't happen to anyone, but it's not exactly like that is a crime exclusive to non-hetero people. I hypothesize that the most usual victims of nonconsensual pic-publishing are hetero women who get revenge porn'd by their exes. But I admit I have no proof of that, and that would require a real social study to prove.
>>2571937yeah well it was consensual which is more than you'll ever get. it was funny though that you tried to imply that "
involuntary celibacy" is voluntary because you find women annoying. Everyone sees right through that.
>>2571937Jiang Qing was very influential with Mao tho
>>2571942Stop wasting money
>>2571948
stop wasting barter goods
>>2571909because hazcels say gays are imperialist by default and when called out on it they retreat to "actually I'm just talking about the imperial core bourgeoisie LGBT NGO ideology which is used as an excuse to drop rainbow bombs on me" (ignore the fact that imperial core bourgeoisie christian fundamentalists do the same thing)
>>2571911i have asked felix to comment on magacom and he says they are to the left of cpusa but still reactionary
>>2571870>The soviet union was a technologically stagnent revisionist capitalist monopolist fascist imperialist empire Just say "big bad" next time
I've been out on a blank for the past few months guys. Mamdami won I heard. What's happened since?
>>2571970Felix has been losing his mind and some thirdworldists have been seemingly activated to cry here everyday about social fascism or whatever
>>2571780i moved from a big retailer to a small boutique store. in some ways its even more inefficient because its like the fall of berlin where nobody can critisise the fuhrer. they even hired a consultatant to give them advice and after a few months ignored all his recommendations. hence everything goes wrong and the staff get blamed. the staff get even more discouraged and disgruntled and leave. there's a high turnover of staff. the gusano woman cannot think that there's a problem with the business itself. it must be because covid made everyone lazy and nobody wants to work anymore (for a pittance). the only reason that their business made money in the past was because there was no competition. but now that there has been several competitors opening up profits are falling, and yet again its the staff fault for not pushing enough sales.
>>2571976might be a good idea for a project and to somehow show how these problems are systemic. becuase so many times i've heard people make excuses (the owner/the wise king being fooled by his advisors) or that its about scale and big business is inefficient while small business is inherently efficient
>>2571843>lived experienceis there another kind of experience?
>>2571942Begs for rent money and then buys a tattoo. This is why you're broke.
>>2571942Lifestylish trash
>>2572031One of them has a chick so it worked. The other one doesn't so it didn't work. 50/50 success rate not bad I would say
>>2571985<lived experience>is there another kind of experience?It's one of those euphemistic terms that anticipate a retort and signal your belonging to a particular camp, shibboleth like. Like uh, gender "affirming" in contrast with "change". Or "Sensitivity" training, as if to presume the validity of the woke-hustler-instructor and the prejudiced guilt of the instructed, which merely needs to admit to it in the struggle session.
This one, "lived experience" deals with standpoint epistemology and it presumes to enshrine the anecdotal experience (standpoint, when convenient) over conflicting information of a more general nature by labeling a virtuous deed to do so. It's basically the complete reversal of it's iirc origin in critical theory. From correcting the unacknowledged subjectivity in liberal academia, to enshrining subjectivity in its service, as a virtue.
>>2571985the other kind is experience as understood by kant
Revolution status?
>>2571944Calling yourself a volcel makes you sound like a coping loser
Calling yourself an incel makes you sound like jokerfied badass
>>2571721All I'm getting from this meme is that the ACP is jealous that the DSA is beating infracels at their own game (electoralism and tailing rightoids).
>>2572066
>ErikHoudini is going to do the revolution by selling merch at the Goth Night Rave
>>2572068Its more than im doing tbh so I can't hate
>>2572066
>You have to have an extreme amount of integrity,
Like begging for rent and then boasting about your new tattoo?
>>2572082
You know, if you asked for actual payment for your services then maybe you would not have to beg so damn hard on the internet constantly?
>>2572066
>We are taking their frameworks, detourning them, and weaponizing them against the capitalist on a cultural level.
Literally has never worked. Not for lack of trying, obviously, because this is what people were doing all through the 80's, 90's, and 00's.
There are so many groups that organise and so many things to organise around which you patently refuse to engage with makes this whole shtick of trying to organise music subcultures more absurd year-after-year that you are still shilling it.
Look, if you want to put on goth nights in a desperate attempt to sate your porn addled obsession with getting a big goth GF or wtf it is you people say, fine, whatever, but stop pretending that this is ever going to politically amount to something. At this point i'm honestly not sure if it's something you tell us to justify the constant begging us up or something you tell yourself to justify being a constant beg to your own ego. Either way though you seriously need an intervention, this is not going anywhere, not going to go anywhere, (without sounding like a dick) you're not even a good writer for what you are trying to do.
Pick something else, try again. Maybe get a job and organise your workplace/industry, maybe get housed and organise the tenants, maybe start going to the palestine demo's and organise around that.
The world is your oyster and you are stuck hanging on to a losing ticket hoping it will transform in to the kitchen sink.
socialist ebegger spouts "just learn to code"
The jokes write themselves.
>>2572066
bro rediscovered praxist that the anarchists have been doing for the last 30 years
will bro also rediscover why this never works out and you need a political vanguard?
>>2572093>bro rediscovered praxist that the anarchists have been doing for the last 30 yearsAnd this is exactly what drives me up the wall with this guy. It's a new generation clinging on to failed strategy.
Book very much related.
>>2572096>I don't think I've ever once gotten a "Based, glad you're working towards something" from this site.Because we are not children! We have seen this shit fail time and time again! Because we recognise that even if it did work you are not even good at what you're trying to do! Because we see that your writing is meandering and slow to the point it is basically gelatinous! Because we want to win!
Like i good subculturalist you will choose not to see it because you people revel in failure, seeking only a validation-milieu.
READ THE ATTACHED FUCKING BOOK Lenin is the iced drinks of communists
>>2571942at this time having
no tattoos is revolutionary. everyone has one. and when everyone's doing the same, then you are not doing some revol.
>>2571942also, you are broke. stop wasting money on superfluos and superficial things.
>>2571780bruh. what's this nonsense. are you complaining that your company did a poor decision that benefits you and some other workers, as a critique to capitalism?
take it up with HR and get promoted to CEO already.
>>2572163Increased contradictions are causing more disruptions and failures within the capitalist system
>>2572150What should we critique capitalism for if not for the fact that the workers can't command the means of production
>>2572168is it even capitalist, or just feudal? its not surplus value causing such high rents, its forced wealth extraction; basic theft, legally mandated. you could still have a system of wage labor exploitation even with universal home ownership, for example.
>>2572169As if those scenarios you wouldn't have poorly managed decisions.
you truly believe that in socialists, communists, and similar (cooperatives) structures there can't be poorly managed decisions.
idealism.
>>2572176
are you an m-l or a pedant
>>2572175Capitalism includes rent
>>2572175by definition capitalist as the rent is paid in monies from wages and not grain
the problem with rent seeking though is that it stymies capitalist productivity, every dollar paid in rent is not a dollar spent on consumption which is the real driver of the economy
zofran status?
So is Amerigga having a Panama moment? Have they become so anxious about BRICS and their slipping dominance in natural resources that they're resorting to invasion?
>>2572184>>2572187whats the difference between capitalist and feudal rent?
>>2572189>it stymies capitalist productivityno shit; its not producing surplus value from labor, but is a feudal form of wealth extraction. rent cannot add anything as a revenue, but only redistribute funds.
>>2572189consumption of necessities and means of production drive the productivity (by keeping workers alive, in the case of necessities, and by helping worker produce commodities, in the case of means of production)
consumption of luxury goods, which are not necessary, and consumption of the means of destruction (weapons of war) do not necessarily drive producitity, particularly since the latter destroys the productive capacity of societies by killing workers and destroying means of production.
>>2572189paying rent is a form of consumption though, not all consumption is good
>>2572031>>2571933 was not suggesting "using socialism to get laid" he was just responding to a self-described incel whining about "dumb women" who "yap too much" in a now deleted post. The pictures of mao and castro were unrelatd to the argument and were just included to induce maximum seethe from the target.
>>2572046saddest thing I have ever read
>>2572203how does one determine the "value" of rent? it cant be quantified, but only set by monopoly over housing - thus, it suspends equivalence in exchange-value and so counts as robbery.
>>2572203>consumption of luxury goods, which are not necessary, and consumption of the means of destruction (weapons of war) do not necessarily drive producitityworkers creating luxury goods are productive breh
>>2572200
the solution to that problem is doing actual praxis. where they can see that everything they envision, plan, organize, etc. isn't perfect.
Guys, even an opera singer is a productive worker provided she sings in a recording booth.
>>2572214i never uttered the phrase value of rent so I don't know why you are asking me this question. Rent is just part of surplus value, i.e. unpaid labor, like profit and interest.
>>2572216>workers creating luxury goods are productive brehI didn't say they weren't. I said the
consumption of luxury goods doesn't
drive pr'oductivity. I was not commeneting on the production of luxury goods, nor was I saying who is productive, I was saying what drives productivity. Consumption of necessities of life (clean food, clean water, clean shelter, clean air, efficient transit) enables people to wake up the next day healthy enough to keep working. A gold watch or diamond wedding ring or video game or stuffed animal does not. Necessities
drive productivity. Luxuries do not drive productivity. If humankind as a whole stopped producing necessities and only produced luxuries, people would very quickly start dying in massive numbers. I am saying that things which do not help people survive, like luxuries, and things which destroy life, like weapons, decrease the productive capacity of society, while necessities and means of production increase the productive capacity of society.
NOW, mortagages are different than rents, since it is a loan given in the purchase of a concrete commodity (the house), so a mortgage is justified in being paid back, whether at a fixed rate or at interest.
>>2572216Luxury goods are consumed by the bourgeoisie so youre wrong from proletarian perspective. The bourgeois consumption is waste
>>2572225I wasn't commenting on who is productive but on what drives future productivity. see
>>2572232you have to feed the opera singer for them to keep singing.
>Financial Times - Binance founder Changpeng Zhao accused of facilitating payments to Hamaslol trump pardoned this dude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changpeng_Zhao >>2572234this is an outdated perspective. even poor third worlders sometimes have commodities not required for survival like video games. I already provided the correct answer here:
>>2572232 >>2572232>rent is surplus valuehow? profit comes from a surplus product; what is the surplus product of the worker which is in the possession of the landlord? you can claim that a thief also lives on surplus value if you like, or you can call it robbery.
>>2572234poor people buy lamborghinis to impress other poor people
>>2572239>poor people buy lamborghinisread that back again
>>2572241do you know what debt is
>>2572237Those are called compradors.
>>2572246Its how the bourgeoisie buys things
>>2572134I have no tattoos and never intend to get one but this is the most lifestylist thing I have ever read. It is not revolutionary to get a tattoo, nor is it revolutionary to reject getting tattoos. It is an unimportant lifestyle choice that, at best, can only have symbolic political content, like getting a swastika or hammer/sickle tattooed to you.
>>2572244Ok and? If the poor people had that money they would spend even more. We also shouldn't view it as equally economically beneficial to spend money on private yachts and on hospitals
>>2572244this chart still shows the bottom 60th percentile contribute to 50th percent of spending.
>>2572249you must not be american. everyone has debt here, including the bourgeoise yes
>>2572244you seem confused. I was talking about what drives productivity, not what drives consumption.
i keep saying "what drives productivity"
the first time, you chose to hear "workers who produce luxury commodities are not productive" (that is not what I said)
the second time, you chose to hear "drives overall consumption"
I'm not talking about who is productive
nor am I talking about wht drives consumption
I am talking about what drives productivity
what drives producitivity is labor power, means of production, and the consumption of necessities of life (food, water, air, shelter)
>>2572213You're a gay boomer
>>2572254I'm american and I don't have debt because I made sure to never take a loan, after seeing what it did to my parents. I would rather go without or beg for help from people who aren't usurious than take a loan for anything. The only reason to take a loan is because you don't have money, and if you don't have money, that means you can't pay back the loan, let alone the interest. So there's no reason to take a loan except to get yourself into even more debt.
>>2572258shouldn't you be in school right now young man
>>2572254Read engels. The proletarian has no access to credit. A payday loan perhaps but thats nothing
>>2572256Are you keeping yourself warm in a library
>>2572256lol productivity is driven through all consumption, not just 'necessities', how could you possibly have the former without the latter. this is the basis of capital vol 3
>>2572261university loans
>>2572259Unfortunately one must have a credit score to buy a car or rent an apartment nowadays
>>2572232productivity in a socialist society is used for good, productivity in a financialized capitalist society is used to further alienate the population and increase the power of the bourgeoise, which is actually a good thing to sharpen the contradictions.
>>2572256It's really about production costs and profit margins.
>>2572265Productivity is a measure of how much profit or value you create with your labour. How efficient your work is. It's not really about working hard. Things like brand image contribute as you can get a higher mark-up on each widget.
>>2572261contrary to what some on here insist, things did change between the 1890s and now. A lot of things have happened. two world wars, the end of the gold standard, global US hegemony, the rise and fall of the USSR, Yugoslavia, Albania, etc. The rise and fall of the non-aligned movement, the rise of the PRC… Anyways yes, there is a labor aristocracy, as Marx, Lenin, and Engels all acknowledge, who make above subsistence wages, can accumulate savings, have access to credit, and enjoy what would have been considered a "petty bourgeois" life in the 1800s.
Marx also talks about the "Crude Communism" of people who want to "level everyone down"
<A house may be large or small; as long as the neighboring houses are likewise small, it satisfies all social requirement for a residence. But let there arise next to the little house a palace, and the little house shrinks to a hut. The little house now makes it clear that its inmate has no social position at all to maintain, or but a very insignificant one; and however high it may shoot up in the course of civilization, if the neighboring palace rises in equal or even in greater measure, the occupant of the relatively little house will always find himself more uncomfortable, more dissatisfied, more cramped within his four walls. An appreciable rise in wages presupposes a rapid growth of productive capital. Rapid growth of productive capital calls forth just as rapid a growth of wealth, of luxury, of social needs and social pleasures. Therefore, although the pleasures of the labourer have increased, the social gratification which they afford has fallen in comparison with the increased pleasures of the capitalist, which are inaccessible to the worker, in comparison with the stage of development of society in general. Our wants and pleasures have their origin in society; we therefore measure them in relation to society; we do not measure them in relation to the objects which serve for their gratification. Since they are of a social nature, they are of a relative nature.- Karl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital (1847), Chapter 6
<The thoughts of every piece of private property as such are at least turned against richer private property in the form of envy and the desire to level everything down; hence these feelings in fact constitute the essence of competition. The crude communist is merely the culmination of this envy and desire to level down on the basis of a preconceived minimum. It has a definite, limited measure. How little this abolition of private property is a true appropriation is shown by the abstract negation of the entire world of culture and civilization, and the return to the unnatural simplicity of the poor, unrefined man who has no needs and who has not yet even reached the stage of private property, let along gone beyond it. (For crude communism) the community is simply a community of labor and equality of wages, which are paid out by the communal capital, the community as universal capitalist. Both sides of the relation are raised to an unimaginary universality – labor as the condition in which everyone is placed and capital as the acknowledged universality and power of the community. […] The first positive abolition of private property – crude communism – is therefore only a manifestation of the vileness of private property trying to establish itself as the positive community. […] By reducing the worker's needs to the paltriest minimum necessary to maintain his physical existence and by reducing his activity to the most abstract mechanical movement. In so doing, the political economist declares that man has no other needs, either in the sphere of activity or in that of consumption. For even this life he calls human life and human existence. By taking as his standard – his universal standard, in the sense that it applies to the mass of men – the worst possible state of privation which life (existence) can know. He turns the worker into a being with neither needs nor senses and turn the worker's activity into a pure abstraction from all activity. Hence any luxury that the worker might enjoy is reprehensible, and anything that goes beyond the most abstract need – either in the form of passive enjoyment or active expression – appears to him as a luxury.- Karl Marx, Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts, Third Manuscript, Private Property and Labor (1844)
lel
>>2572200
>trots
>anarchists
>ultras
so ml pedant it is
>>2572278forgot to add
>western >>2572265>lol productivity is driven through all consumption, not just 'necessities', if humanity, as a whole, stopped producing necessities and means of production, and only produced luxury goods, it could not survive. It is the consumption specifically of means of production and necessities which drives productivity. The consumption of luxury goods cannot drive productivity. if all society made was commodities which were neither necessary for survival nor means of production, then humans would start to die off, and productivity would decrease. You can appeal to the authority of volume 3 all you want, my argument is ironclad.
>>2572265But productivity does not require consumption in a 1:1 sense, you can increase productivity without increasing consumption by improved tech, better education, reorganized workflow, automation, government r&d. In a socialist society, productivity is even less dependent on consumer driven consumption and more dependent on planning, investment, and tech development.
>>2572201>whats the difference between capitalist and feudal rent?Feudal societies were extremely diverse and their economies aren't compatible with a comparison to capitalism in the first place
>>2572282>you can increase productivity without increasing consumption by improved tech, better education, reorganized workflow, automation, government r&dautomation and improved tech IS increased consumption. It is productive consumption of the means of production. See
>>2572280Only consumption of necessities (which enables people to keep working) and consumption of means of production (which increases the productivity of people working) can "drive productivity"
People keep getting derailed from the original discussion of what "drives productivity" and getting it confused, variously, with other questions like what drives consumption, who is productive, and whether consumption and productivity scale 1:1. Those are all different but related questions.
>>2572284Answer anon's question. They asked what is the difference between capitalist and feudal rent, not whether feudal economies are diverse.
> their economies aren't compatible with a comparison to capitalism in the first placeNot true. Marx compared various modes of production which all operated on exploiting various forms of surplus labor, like slave labor, serf labor, and wage labor. All 3 forms of these labors have coexisted in society for a long time, but the mode of production determines which one is the most common. Wage labor existed under feudalism, for example, as artisans. But they were not the most common type of labor. Serf labor was the most common.
>>2572282>you can increase productivity without increasing consumption by improved techonly possible under socialism
>>2572285>automation and improved tech IS increased consumption. It is productive consumption of the means of production.productive consumption is an input to production, individual consumption is an output of production, so productivity growth comes from investment, not increased individual consumption.
marx himself says exactly this:
<Productivity of labor increases through changes in the means of production and production techniques, not through individual consumption.you were originally talking about everyday consumer consumption, don't mix it up.
>>2572291
Marx shows the production process is a circuit not linear, you are trying to answer the chickeuygh problem by pretending a circuitous process is linear when it is circuitous. You can arbitrarily pick any step in the production process as the starting point, but it will remain a circuit. So, when you say
>productive consumption is an input to production,
the answer is yes. But it is also an output of production.
and when you say
>individual consumption is an output of production,
the answer is yes, but it is also an input of production. If a worker does not eat today, they do not go to work tomorrow. an individual's consumption of necessities enables the production of labor power, which is commodified labor sold to the capitalist. and meanf of production are themselves commodities which are outputs of industry.
This is why Marx treats the production process as a circuit not a line, and shows the circuit of capitalist production from different arbitrary starting points, by adopting various perspectives or standpoints within the production process.
>>2572293>you were originally talking about everyday consumer consumption, don't mix it up.1. you deleted
>>2572291 and wrote
>>2572293 but I already replied here
>>2572295 (by the way I meant to say chicken AND egg problem, for some reason if don't include "AND" i get false positive from the N word filter)
2. I entered the conversation here:
>>2572203 >>2572284feudal rents existed as a means to pay for the maintenance of the land and so served a productive purpose (by employing labour), hence physiocrats and classical economists linking the rate of rents to the produce of the land (rents here count as a wage fund) - rents to marx has a capitalist character related but distinct, where rents charge from the value produced by private enterprise, and so are subtracted from profit (this function today is fulfilled by various taxes, so this analysis must be discarded). the private landlord today gives the commodity of useful space in exchange for money; however, space is in itself not a product of labour and so cannot be said to possess value (thus, the "consumption" of space cannot remove the value of space). so then, charging rents is putting a price on what is free, essentially, like charging a toll to cross a bridge, which is a form of theft (like a gangster taking his "protection money" from people).
>>2572295>Marx shows the production process is a circuit yes, outputs become inputs. that’s not in dispute. however, circularity of the production process does not imply that every element of the circuit drives productivity equally. marx’s circuit is about value flows and reproduction, not about what determines productivity growth. marx uses a circuit because inputs and outputs reproduce each other, but he still distinguishes which parts add value, which parts transfer value, and which parts raise productivity. constant capital increases productivit, variable capital does not. or to put it another way, reproduction is circular, causation is not.
in capital vol 1, he talks about how (paraphrasing), productivity rises through changes in the means of production, not through changes in the means of subsistence.
he is
explicit in this.
you confuse the circuit with determinants of productivity growth. only specific moments of the circuit determine productivity. increased consumption of wage goods does not raise productivity. that’s marx’s entire argument in the chapters on relative surplus value.
>>2572266What your graph shows is the debt repayment pressure, i.e., how expensive a household’s debt repayments are in relation to its income. Total household debt however is higher than ever.
>>2572317I just came here and posted this vid blind,
>>2572278>>2572200 >>2572317Well he didn't say anything wrong. Except maybe the bit about conservatives if it's meaning he's one
>>2572320I'm sure you and this other small child really got it all figured out.
>>2572317Other than that bit about reaching conservatives where's the lie?
>>2572321Why make fun of someone for being a kid that is smarter than 95% of adults
>>2572317the future really is bright
>>2572306I think we've gone off tracks from my original point which was very simple. Consuming necessities keeps workers alive, so it drives productivity by producing and reproducing labor-power. Consumption of the means of production drives productivity by augmenting the speed of commodity production, when accompanied by the labor power of those operating the means of production.
But consumption of luxury goods does not drive productivity because it does not enable the creation of future labor-power, nor does it augment the rate of commodity production. These are objects which are merely consumed. They do not augment production when they are consumed, and they do not keep workers alive. That is why Marx separated them in his models of departments. He also treated weapons as being in the same category. When more and more of your society's labor power and means of production is dedicated to producing luxury commodities, those luxury commodities do not feed back into the system to enable the creation of more necessities, labor power, or means of production. They are merely consumed for fleeting enjoyment. This is why I have said, over and over, that it is completely unsustainable to run a society where means of production and necessities are not produced, because all you would have are luxury goods, and people would start to starve very quickly. Luxury goods do not drive productivity. They are consumed, but they do not consumed in such a way that enables future labor power or future means of production or future necessities to be created. They have use value. They have exchange value. They required production to create, but they do not feed back into the circuit in a way that augments production. Therefore they do not drive productivity. Remember, I entered the conversation here:
>>2572203There is another anon arguing with you differently from me in a way I do not agree with.
>>2572328
All the dude did was make a video suggesting that if the president starts telling soldiers to massacre civilians maybe they shouldn't listen to it and the Republicans are calling for his execution over it, shit's crazy
>>2571787You are a reactionary socialist who wants to preserve the remnant of feudalism in the family.
I'm not dying for Venezuelan oil.
>>2571295>Death to the scourge of the earth, the destroyer of nations, the father of fascism, the enabler of ethnostates, the treatlerite tyrant, the protector of pedophiles, the exporter of ecocide, the captain of capitalism, the king of coups, the sultan of sanctions, the emir of the embargo, the autocrat of austerity, the doge of deregulation, the baron of busting unions, the prince of privatization, the lord of loan sharks, the patron-saint of proxy wars, the sponsor of settlers, the guarantor of genocides, the invader of islands, the Divided $nakkkes of Amerikkka™ Most of the Proletariat in the US are deeply reactionary. They'll support capitalism to the end thanks to their brainwashing.
It would take something like Yellowstone having a caldera eruption or something else that would severely weaken the state, and then have communism forced upon the US as it was in Poland or Hungary. That's the only chance for a DotP in the US.
>>2571957Yknow the obsession about “muh gays” in socialism always fails to account for the fact that you get the culture from your base, and I imagine there are a lot of minorities (sexual or otherwise) who were open to socialism when it was still a dirty word because their lives were considered “dirty” or “bad” already so what’s one more “bad” thing on top of the others?
If they want to change the culture they’ve got to actually make the effort to recruit a base from the people they want. Thing is these guys don’t recruit, instead they see it as a purely passive thing that people stumble onto after encountering some culture online. So they consider it incredibly important that the “wrong” people are excluded, not because these people are doing anything necessarily “bad” because they think their aesthetic or culture is a threat to the passive kind of recruitment they imagine is the primary form of growth.
It’s all very “new YouTube content creator” coded. You put something out and hope people gravitate towards it.
>>2572340well aren't most of these guys basically just social-mediabrained people anyway? it's a logical extension of that thinking
>>2572326>consuming necessities keeps workers alive, so it drives productivity by producing and reproducing labor-power.reproducing labor power is necessary for production, but it does not increase productivity. reproduction and productivity are different categories in marx. it's categorical confusion. keeping workers alive is a precondition for production, not a determinant of productivity. marx explicitly denies this.
>rest of your texttrue. that was basically my orignal argument, however this only speaks to the sustainability of reproduction, not to productivity growth.
>There is another anon arguing with you differently from me in a way I do not agree with.yeah they're wrong lol
>>2572315okay gotcha i was confused
GENTLMEN IM GOING TO INVEST IN PENNY STOCKS
THIS SHIT is 0.030 per stock
https://www.sunhydrogen.com/IS THIS A SCAM
>>2572330Can't have second-guessing amongst the grunts in a killing force, now can we?
>>2572349>reproducing labor power is necessary for production, but it does not increase productivity.once again, we are talking about what "drives" productivity not what "increases" productivity.
"drives" = enables
>. reproduction and productivity are different categories in marx. it's categorical confusion. keeping workers alive is a precondition for production, not a determinant of productivity. marx explicitly denies this.Ok but my argument is very simple. I am just saying that consumption of luxury goods does not "drive" (enable) production because it does not keep workers alive. Only consumption of necessities does that. Means of production does increase productivity as well as enable productivity. Luxury commodities are neither necessities, nor means of production, so they do not enable production. They are merely a product of past production without any use value that enables further production.
One thing the bourgeoisie use luxury commodities for is price stability and preventing crises of overproduction. If everyone produced nothing but means of production and necessities, the price of those things would drop very low, and then capitalists would get a lower rate of profit on them. By diverting some of society's productive capacity into the production of luxury goods, they divert that productive capacity away from means of production and necessities, thereby preventing the low prices that result from a crisis of overproduction. Part of the control the bourgeoisie has over the proletariat is keeping the price of necessities prohibitively expensive, and eating up most of their wages. With wars which destroy labor power (by killing people) and means of production (by destroying infrastructure and fixed capital), and with production of luxury commodities (which do not drive productin), the bourgeoisie is able to "stabilize" the prices of necessities at a level where it is not so expensive that most people die, but it is also not so underpriced that everyone is able to get what they need almost for free.
>>2572354>>2572317Is this CPUSA anon?
>U.S. THIRD QUARTER ADVANCED ESTIMATE GDP REPORT CANCELED
Are we in the golden age yet?
>>2572354what if this kid is like 30 and has the Andy Milonakis disease
>>2572365>gdp report cancelledoh this tariff data is bad bad
Some vague rumors of ICE agents being shot in Tampa after being mistaken for kidnappers. Anyone hear more about this? Supposedly being scrubbed by censors.
>>2572387
Most people have been brain-wormed by the le ideology meme. Everything HAS to be a convenient pick-n-mix wikipedia listed ideology.
>>2572271>contrary to what some on here insist, things did change between the 1890s and nowThis is called imperialism. You are wrong because describe conditions of imperialist exploiters and ascribe them to proletarians.
>>2572265Credit to the proletarian is but a means to survive. The proletarian gets payday loan to get food and water or electricity or rent. To conflate payday loan to student loan is unscientific. The proletarian cannot eat student loans. Student loans are petty-bourgeois mechanism for the beneficiaries of imperialism
>>2572380I only partly understand this
>>2572361Yes but you've conflated enabling production (a precondition) with productivity growth earlier when you say
>Consuming necessities keeps workers alive, so it drives productivity by producing and reproducing labor-power"keeping workers alives" is a precondition for production. "drives productivity" implies it increases output per unit of labor, which Marx explicitly denies.
>Only consumption of necessities does that. Means of production does increase productivity as well as enable productivity. Luxury commodities are neither necessities, nor means of production, so they do not enable production. They are merely a product of past production without any use value that enables further production.you are again treating s “enabling production” as part of “driving productivity.” While the means of production increase productivity, you again lump necessities under “driving productivity,” which marx separates as a precondition.
>“Drives productivity by producing and reproducing labor-power” this is conflating enabling the labor process with raising output per worker
>>2572396
You are being exactly what you’re accusing this random person of by bitching about cringe.
Being part of the real movement means growing up and accepting you have to work with people you don’t like.
>>2572400That image and green text is dialectical tho, read marx
>>2572380in theory you could but there's more going into gdp calcs than just trade settlement so not sure how accurate it would be
>>2571944>Don't build your economy on constant expansion through warfareHow?
>>2572393
>uh, yeah? you convince people that communism is the path forward, through its scientific method and studies of the historical materialism.
yeab but marx is also saying 'to convince people,' the contradictions must be sharp enough in society and the historical moment has to be ripe enough for that to happen. you don't just convince people, history has to convince them as well
>>2572407
<Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established
But his criticism of other socialists is they didn't live up to his standards of what communism was supposed to be. Or do you defend that by saying they weren't ideals but discovered through scientific investigation of capitalism. Then what would you call them instead?
Also if communists wonder why they're losing for 150 years maybe they should stop believing they don't have to convince anyone? I dunno sounds kinda dumb.
>>2572418>Also if communists wonder why they're losing for 150 years maybe they should stop believing they don't have to convince anyone? I dunno sounds kinda dumb.See
>>2572416<the contradictions must be sharp enough in society and the historical moment has to be ripe enough for that to happen. you don't just convince people, history has to convince them as wellThe moment mist be ripe. The moment may not be ripe for another 150 years, but our day will come. A specter is haunting the world.
>>2572421The ancient slaving owning mode of prouction lasted for a millenia, feudalism was around for 600 years, modern capitalism like 300 years. Marx is right that capitalism revolutionizes the productive forces faster than other modes of production so it should be take less time than before
>>2572413>You do not convince people to be communist. It's possible
> It is class that makes you a communist or an enemy of communism. Communism was founded by bourgeois class traitors Marx and Engels, and contributed to by non-proletarians like Lenin, Mao, and Castro.
> The only thing to do is to win the war against our class enemies.Your understanding is incomplete, the "enemy" is not a person or people, it is capitalism itself as a system. Bourgeoisie can on rare occasion be bourgeois class traitors, and workers are sometimes labor aristocrats, opportunists, careerists. Dialectical materialism recommends you constantly re-evaluate the real circumstances for new and unexpected developments, rather than relying entirely on metaphysical dogmas or eternal truths.
>>2572405>>2572407>>2572413It depends what you mean by “convincing”. The flaw of liberal thinking is believing in some war of ideas and that if you have enough debates and go individual by individual bringing them around to your way of thinking eventually you create change merely by the placid acceptance of one idea or another—example: “75% of people want universal healthcare so we will get universal healthcare because of that.”
It’s not about ensuring people placidly have “the right ideas” in their head. It’s about getting people to act on ideas. Like, you had some particular reactionary peasants that would put up pictures of Lenin next to the Tsar, Kerensky allegedly claimed he saw graffiti when fleeing from the Bolsheviks that said “Down with the Jew Kerensky, long live Trotsky!” It’s not that people had “the right ideas” in their head, it’s that they were acting on behalf of a socialist vanguard.
>>2572317The alphas really are alpha
>>2572387>>communism can be achieved by convincing peopleWhy do ultras believe people will magically and instantaneously become communist though means of invisible psychic influence? It's as if they do not understand that human communication is also a part of the materiel conditions that move the world forward.
>>2572435"you can't convince people of things!!!"
(said while appealing to lenin's authority to convince people of things)
>>2572443That's not what the quote says dummy
>>2572430I mean depends on the location. Lots of places were still in the slave mode of production when colonizers arrived. And like at least 1 billion people are still subsistence farmers today. I think due to the global nature of capitalism change may take longer than we think.
>>2572449How is this relevant to the quote I posted?
what's new in the free world
>>2572454Gemistry of the highest calibur
>>2572450>it's really weird!!!He lost the sauce
>>2572450God these things, especially the AI pictures of him being "Da God-Emperor" are extremely pathetic.
>>2572317This kid might be American Lenin but because he's a child
now retards are talking shit.
>>2572444
>a PROLETARIAT can be a supporter of communism and the communist party
And how can a communist party exist if you don't use words do designate that a particular group of people are a communist party? Words spoken aloud are air, a material thing. Words printed are material, Posters are material.
I'm not saying you need to convince everyone through a le epic debate to become communist but you still need to convince some people to join a communist party at the least. How else could a party exist, establish a state and seize power?
>>2572444
>communism is when a party calls itself communist
is this uigga serious
>>2572450>would you support the idea of foreign born citizens being barred from running for office??<posts picture of the somalian guy who ran for office in minnessota <doesn't post picture of, for example, governor Schwarzeuyghur hmmmmmmmmmm really makes you think
>>2572413>It is class that makes you a communist or an enemy of communism>Mao never talked about class-collaborationyou really need to stop larping at Maoism.
>>2572464
And how do you organize the people holding those arms? How does the working class class coordinate it's use of arms? You need words. You need to convince party members to do specific actions necessary for class struggle.
>>2572467
The RM?
>>2572465>but because Russia, China and Iran.well, hopefully Russia, China and Iran remove US presence elsewhere around their hemisphere, too.
>>2572470>"vaccines do not cause autism" is not an 'evidence-based' claim.so, the opposite is that they have 'evidence-based' results that prove that vaccines cause autism. 'does not rule out'=/=evidence-based.
damn, RFK Jr. knows this. I bet he has all his children vaccinated.
>>2572468Mao liquidated the national bourgeoisie though
>>2572482He turned them into a star in a flag, ancient greek myth style.
>>2572483
The Real Movement is composed of humans that talk to each other. It's not magic.
>>2572435Didn't he have a quote about how we must never tire of educating people.
>>2572499The point is not that you shouldn't educate people
>>2572503It says right there in your article. It's the law that you have to declare the money you're bringing over the boarder if it's more than $10k
>>2572504Imagine defending this shit. Kill yourself. People should be able to carry around their own money how they want
>>2572505>Imagine defending this shit. Kill yourself. People should be able to carry around their own money how they wantWhy? We all have to pay taxes. I don't have any sympathy for you trying to evade taxes and all that bullshit while I have to pay. Seethe about it more.
>>2572508Go suck a border agents cock loser
>>2572510>Go suck a border agents cock loserT. underage and never paid any tax besides sales tax
>>2572513You are an unironic border patrol shill kill yourself
>>2572511>haha gayare you 12
>>2572511the trump o-face at the end got me lol
>>2572365Iirc they're hiding the job reports from October as well.
>>2572271Nobody's gonna read all that shit, bro
I did tho, and I agreed w u btw >>2572299flame status: carried
name honor status: honored
>>2572313Houdini is officially America's Most Wanted
a workers state should control the flow of currency crossing borders.
in a capitalist state we should have less restrictions so that revolutionary orgs can carry cash around without hindrance from the state
>>2572536They clearly are if the Feds wanna arrest you for them
>>2572543
Libertarians are fascists
have the left… found their Joe Rogan???
>>2572505Proletarians dont have surplus money or grain
>>2572503Google "civil forfeiture", the cops (in many places) can and will steal any significant amount of cash they can find on you and they get to keep it. Legally.
Imagine how much worse traffic and vehicle law would be handled if cops could fine you for any cash, which you have to pay to them personally on the spot, for a completely subjective hypothetical offense and they got to keep the money. The perverse revenue incentives of fining people handled less like a bureaucratic body and more like a gang doing shakedowns, street by street with the higher-ups getting a cut.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States >>2572486The chinese national bourgeoisie and the urban petty bourgeois had historical role to destroy the imperialism and compradors. The american middle classes have no such role. Their historical purpose is to be destroyed. They get no star on flag.
>>2572576Did you think I would suddenly support this because china retard?
>>2572566>They get no star on flag.Unfair. They should get a participation star too.
macro rubio
>>2572478Poor ape
RIP in piece
>>2572669What are domestic workers as distinct from white/blue collar? Like people working in or from homes?
>>2572672>>2572674like for example, imagine a maid
>Trump has decided he wants to speak directly with Maduro, sources say. There is now “more talk about talking and less talk about bombing,” according to officials - Axios
>>2572681thank you for the recommendation
Yknow I’m starting to wonder how America is gonna grapple with, well, continuing to slide downhill. Like I don’t really feel like I’m working “toward” anything in my job personally, I know a lot of people that feel that listlessness. This country sacrificed community in the name of commodities but pure consumerism likely isn’t affordable for vast swathes of the country. So we’ve got a shitty economy where useless commodities are cheaper but actual necessities are growing out of reach, how the fuck does that even work 10 or 20 years from now?
>>2572672>What are domestic workers as distinct from white/blue collarblue: machinery
white: behind a desk crunching numbers.
>>2572710domestic worker: maid
Scoop: Trump ready to talk with Maduro over Venezuela drug strikes
President Trump has told his advisers he's planning to speak directly with Nicolás Maduro, even as the U.S. designated the Venezuela president Monday as the head of a terrorist organization, administration officials tell Axios.
Why it matters: Trump's decision is an important milestone in his gunboat diplomacy aimed at Venezuela — and could be a sign that U.S. missile strikes or direct military action on land are not imminent, those sources say.
"Nobody is planning to go in and shoot him or snatch him — at this point. I wouldn't say never, but that's not the plan right now," according to one official familiar with the discussions.
"In the meantime, we're going to blow up boats shipping drugs. We're going to stop the drug trafficking."
At least 83 people have been killed in 21 separate missile strikes on boats that allegedly were carrying drugs during the U.S. military action in the Caribbean known as "Operation Southern Spear."
Driving the news: Word of Trump's interest in talking coincides with the State Department's decision Monday to label an alleged drug cartel in Venezuela as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization," which provides the U.S. more of a pretext to take military action in and around the South American nation.
Also Monday, Gen. Dan Caine — the military brains behind Southern Spear — visited Puerto Rico, where as many as 10,000 troops, sailors and pilots are stationed.
The big picture: Officially, Southern Spear is a drug-interdiction force. Unofficially, it's about regime change in Caracas, which Axios first reported before Trump returned to office in January.
"We have covert operations, but it's not designed to kill Maduro. It's designed to stop narcotrafficking," a White House official said. But "if Maduro leaves, we would not shed a tear."
Zoom in: No date has been set for a Trump-Maduro call, which is "in the planning stages," one U.S. official told Axios. No one would hazard a guess as to what Trump will say to Maduro or how he plans to say it; the cliché "all options are on the table" applies.
"Maduro is a narcoterrorist. Always lead with that word if you want to represent the president's thinking," the administration official said.
"The diplomats tell us that Maduro is going to say, 'Trust me. I'll have new elections in three years. You can come and have all the oil. I'll stop sending it to Russia.' He has said many things like that over many years and he never keeps his promise. So the diplomats tell us we should be suspicious."
Zoom out: Oil-rich Venezuela has long been an opponent of the U.S. and has helped prop up Cuba's dictatorship, which furnishes security that helped install Maduro in 2013 and keep him in power. Venezuela also is an ally of Iran, China and Russia.
Part of the challenge of persuading Maduro to leave, U.S. officials say, is that his Cuban handlers might execute him if he yields to American pressure and quits.
In Trump's first term, in 2020, Maduro was indicted by the Justice Department as a leader of the group called Cartel de los Soles, or "Cartel of the Suns." Maduro has denied the charges and said the group is a fiction.
Venezuela's leaders and military have publicly been linked to the group since at least January 2007.
Reality check: Critics of Trump's Venezuela policy repeatedly have tried to blame Secretary of State and National Security Adviser Marco Rubio for the military buildupup. But administration officials say Rubio was put in the twin positions because he reflects what Trump wants.
"The hawk in Venezuela is Donald Trump, followed by [White House Deputy Chief of Staff] Stephen Miller, followed by Marco Rubio," a third U.S. official said.
In 2019, when Trump was considering military action in Venezuela after Maduro stole Venezuela's presidential election, Rubio talked the president out of it by saying there weren't enough military assets in the region to effectively pressure Maduro.
Today, Trump has that option. Officials say Rubio and Caine, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, have stitched together an operation to "preserve optionality for the president." Rubio has purged and minimized the State Department and national security bureaucracies of personnel who object to Trump's aggressive style on foreign policy.
The timeline: Before launching Southern Spear, Trump played good-cop/bad-cop with Maduro by appointing adviser Ric Grenell to act as a friendly envoy to Venezuela.
Maduro offered up his country's riches to the U.S., The New York Times reported in October, which Trump said was a sign that Maduro realized "you don't want to f**k around with the United States."
But Maduro wanted to remain in power. And that was a nonstarter for Trump, officials say.
Last week, after more entreaties from Venezuela, Trump said he "may be having some discussions with Maduro, and we'll see how that turns out."
What's next: Since then, the president has made up his mind to speak directly with Maduro, the sources said, and there's more talk about talking and less talk about bombing.
"I see a diplomatic solution as being very likely," one Trump adviser said.
"Donald Trump hasn't said this in as many words, but he wants his legacy to be that he did everything he could to stem the flow of illegal drugs into this country
https://www.axios.com/2025/11/24/trump-maduro-talks-meeting-venezuela-boat-strikesIt's pretty crazy knowing that Rodney King was beaten close to the home of someone I know in the SFV and that there was actually a protest shortly after the acquittal of the cops in that incident, considering how suburban that part of the valley is.
Theres a lot of californians here including me. very telly
>>2572707Americans will be forced into Blackrock ran slave camps assuming they are able produce more value than the cost of just shooting them.
>>2572713>Part of the challenge of persuading Maduro to leave, U.S. officials say, is that his Cuban handlers might execute him if he yields to American pressure and quits.no one can be that lazy in creating propaganda, lmao.
after the revolution what will we do with gaben
>>2572734Socialize his assets
>>2572707>how the fuck does that even work 10 or 20 years from now?well, americans elected a guy who promised a return to the good old days by ramping up violence abroad, in order to collapse industry in the periphery by killing an untold number of people, so i assume that's the solution you guys are going for
>>2572681I liked the surprise ᴉuᴉlossnW cameo
>>2572672>What are domestic workers as distinct from white/blue collar?they're either unpaid or informal positions, people like wallerstein are right to distinguish them from proles, seems like a pretty crucial concept
>>2572725
>>2572743
Didn't rap just fall off the charts? Younger people just aren't into it
Hello Americans. When was the last time you shouted "Yeehaw!", fired a gun, then drove your pickup truck to go buy a burger at the drive thru?
>>2572707Just wait until they're forced to abolish retirement cuz nobodies having kids. life expectancy finna drop like a rock
>>2572745It's not disappearing completely but it's falling out of the mainstream and is once again becoming a subculture associated with gangs:
https://www.avclub.com/no-rap-songs-billboard-top-40-first-time-35-years>>2572753from the article:
>Per Billboard, this is in part due to recent rule changes regarding recurrence; descending songs are removed from the chart after falling below certain thresholds (below number five after 78 weeks, below number 10 after 52 weeks, etc.). “Luther” fell victim to the recurrent rule after falling to number 38 last week after a very respectable 46 weeks on the chart, and seven other songs were removed as well. While this could’ve opened up the playing field for other rap songs to rise, there are other factors at play. For instance, all 12 songs from Taylor Swift’s The Life Of A Showgirl have stuck in the Top 40 since the album’s release, which leaves limited slots for everybody else. >>2572708
Ah shit man, I’m sorry about that. Admittedly getting close to some folks on leftypol is kind of sketch to me—not saying you’re sketch, just I kind of want to keep distance from this site and IRL usually.
Leaving the state might be a smart move at this point.
>>2572761
1600 pensylvania ave
>>2572770
I remember my street getting locked down and like two helicopters overhead cause some dude mugged a guy in broad daylight and then tried escaping through peoples yards. Tried going to work and some cops had their guns drawn and yelled at me to go inside.
>>2572760
>La Costra Nostra
Why would Sicilians say "the our thing"?
It's just "our thing"
The cia added the "la" part.
>>2572776is there a single person under the age of 25 who understands that you're = you are and your = something that belongs to you?
Why did the new USApol thread got nuked lol
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