Couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
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The body was too short or empty.
first for utter dismal defeatism
I was at the conference today AMA.
>>2578089Did you feel any iota of optimism.
>>2578091Right at the very beginning. They had a speech from a Liverpool councillor, Lucy Williams, opened the conference. She spoke quite strongly and powerfully about the ability to organise both from the "political pulpit" and from the grassroots. Rooted anti-austerity politics and feminism into a real cohesive vision for socialism. Then I saw them trying to kick out SUTR
during the Corbyn speech lmao.
>>2578092Oh god I only watched the beginning of the stream. This happened during the conference in the conference room?
>>2578095No. So the main hall (where the speeches were had) has an ante room about the 2/3rds of its size with like drinks, food, and a few stalls (only like a dozen btw, which is kinda insane you can easily get that for a small city-level event). The SUTR stall was in the ante-room. There were like 6-7 security around this one woman it was kinda mental. Funny thing is that new people took her place like 15 minutes later from SUTR.
>>2578110Sounds like a nightmare.
>>2578112Honestly far from the worst thing today.
They have totally fucked it up. It is over.
It will be another decade before we get another attempt at a left wing party now, thanks to these ego obsessed, power hungry, clique forming freaks.
>>2578127Go on. I might as well find out before I suffer to watch it.
>>2578089Whats the fuck are the SWPies up to?
Your Party was doomed from its internal contradictions. Social-fascism will never work.
>>2578138demsoc isn't social fascism thoughbeit, allende was no social fascist.
But like the DSA Your Party is filled with like 150 different flavors of "socialist" all competing for the most smallest of program changes. Shits fucked.
>>2578142> filled with like 150 different flavors of "socialist" That would be better than the seeming reality of a few factions organised around chronic failparties.
So now what?
>>2578135They had planned an attempt to force an election of an interim executive committee from the flaw. Utterly batshit stuff, no idea why they created it. Anyways that is what got them purged, which people (correctly) saw as a general attack on Dual Membership since they went after people like James Giles (not SWP at all, just a Sultana supporter).
>>2578145Wait for tomorrow to progress. If it is as bad or worse then start learning chinese.
>>2578133"Working Class is an Ableist term" was unironically said. The general vibes of the Antechamber were horrific. A lady from Venezuela said we should follow Maduro's electoral guidelines (if the press didn't get hold of that it would be an insane mercy). There was a bit where the SWP were defending Dual Membership and then got called rapists. Oh and the aforementioned ban of James Giles who is like legitimately good.
>>2578149>>2578150But I'm shit at Chinese and have only read like 3 chapters of the first edition of The Governance of China…
>>2578151>"Working Class is an Ableist term"I hate the post-left.
>Maduro's electoral guidelines Based? I think?
> There was a bit where the SWP were defending Dual MembershipHow is that an issue? Presumably the SWP will tell their members to vote Your Party anyway. Or maybe not after this fiasco.
>>2578142Corbyn and all the labour / gaza independent grandees are social-fascists (even if they are critical of imperialism). As for the "demsoc" side, maybe they are genuine socialists but they are all utopians or trots. They can't organise anything due to their own structure holding them back, they are idealists who have no drive or discipline. If you want to have a competent movement, you have to embrace Marxism-Leninism Mao Zedong Thought. Otherwise you won't have a disciplined revolutionary organisation, and it will collapse due to sex scandals or transphobia. If the English want to do socialism they have to stop doing this stupid revisionist / trotskyist / demsoc shit. Like they can do it they are just ideologically destroyed.
>>2578155>How is that an issue? Presumably the SWP will tell their members to vote Your Party anyway. Or maybe not after this fiasco.It was more the heckling and counter heckling and them having the weirdest fights imaginable. I also forget the lady that had a poem like speech against dual membership that honestly could have been satire I was so confused i cannot even describe what it was like.
>>2578162The thing is right I think the demsoc movement is the new "thing" for the western left that isn't just reformism. It's the best movement we currently have under the circumstances. A genuine revolution can be brought about from these movements. But only if they keep the revolutionary objectives. Its the sort of vague movement within movements shit Lenin was immersed in and changed from within.
>>2578151Honestly I'm really sympathetic with these hopeful young people, I just really hope they realise democratic centralism + criticism/selfcriticism model + mass line is the only way to have a functioning party, rather than just giving up.
Do you remember when the Russian Social Democrats came to London for their conference and Trotsky got up on stage and said "maybe we shouldn't call ourselves socialist"
>>2578170The young far left isn't hopeful, anon. The young far left is simultaneously growing and losing hope.
Everyone should just drop this Soc Dem farce and join the International Communist Party already.
Every trot can fuck off to hell
I've never heard of the SWP until today but that's probably because I'm younger than 30.
>>2578319Have you ever been to a protest or rally of any kind? If you have, you have undoubtedly run into them or one of their front groups.
>>2578145We see what happens tomorrow. The left groups organising against Corbyn/Murphy clique have agreed to coordinate tomorrow and agitate for bringing forward the disqualified workers wage for MPs motion and put as much pressure as possible on the chair. The conference was pretty restless under the undemocratic standing orders forced on them so might see some more uproar from the floor. Zarah will also be speaking and hopefully will continue to call out the leadership for the expulsions.
On the other hand the people chairing tomorrow will be more hardline Corbyn-loyalists who will be harsher and crackdown on left-wing speakers more. Still they can't shut down the livestream and cut the mic all day long.
>>2578335>Zarah represents the left wing of the partyWhat the fuck is going on. This looks unfixable.
>>2578338Zarah represents herself, but she's been frozen out by the Corbyn/Murphy clique and there's no future for her, so at least for now she's started quoting Lenin, appealing to all the left groups intervening in the party and calling for a party of the whole left with the members in charge. How much she's genuine in her views isn't really relevant, but she's using her platform to protest the dictatorial attitude of the leadership and agitate for socialist motions.
>>2578319I think in some places the Socialist Party or other trots are more dominant, they are the same thing though, they are the same strain of trotskyism and split from the same party. RCP is a different strain for example. But the SWP is the biggest and most cockroach-like.
>>2578361Bzzzt. Wrongo. RCP and SPEW are the same strain of Ted Grant (Labour entryism) and originate from Militant, with the RCP being the ones who kept doing entryism after Militant got purged while SPEW did an open turn, RCP did the same post-Corbyn rebranding to RCP from Socialist Appeal, so you'd think they're the same now but they've diverged over 30 years and SPEW are now just trade unionists mostly through TUSC, while RCP are student-recruiters who now latch onto whatever the latest thing that might get them a headline is.
SWP are a separate tendency originating with Tony Cliff (state capitalism guy) and are historically the 'biggest' group on the left, at least since the old CPGB liquidated, largely off of anti-fascist agitation on a popular front basis, ie. their fronts like Stand up to Racism.
>>2578128
I see you ignored my point that whether the party is pro-trans or not was also submitted for a vote. Trademark behaviour.
workers party gb it is then
A GB News presenter, Lucy White, has stated on her Xitter that no person of Pakistani heritage should be allowed in the UK House of Commons.
Gbeebies being openly racist now and refusing to apologise for it.
>>2578150
As insane as suggesting we simply import China's industrial policy without regard for different conditions.
>>2578375Thanks for the lore explanation, tbh I always found it kind of hard to even differentiate the Socialist Party from the SWP, it took me years to find out they were different orgs, so I assumed they were closely related.
>>2578392For once it wasn't idpol or anything that fucked it up. It was intense leadership division. There were some absolutely embarrassing speeches made about how the word socialism could "upset" people.
I love how anons instantly try to place the blame on that thing, despite even being unwilling to name it.
you're just a bunch of social hitlerites gagging for an opportunity to blame it all on that one thing, to make it a scapegoat so you feel like you're at last free to kick, spit and laugh at those people whom that thing relates too.
please go 5 minutes of your life without thinkng about that thing for marx's sake.
>>2578151> (if the press didn't get hold of that it would be an insane mercy)one of the streamers interviewed and broadcast her.
>>2578319>I've never heard of the SWP until today lucky fucker.
>>2578404No we're not. You just think we are.
>>2578394Lol, at the Your Party 'regional assembly' I went to, a very confused old woman was sold both 'The Socialist' and 'The Socialist Worker' and was asking me what the difference between them was, bless her
>>2578392>>2578395Yeah, the issues are almost entirely of power and control, to a lesser extent its a question of socialist vs soft-lefty hippy pacifist politics.
The faultlines are Corbyn and a small group of advisors around him desperately trying to keep control of what was advertised as a democratic process and denying members the ability to define the structures and direction of the party, trying to enforce a very limited set of options available that don't line up with what's been popular at assemblies and among the members in general.
The question will ultimately be how many people are too checked out and apathetic to care about the details of the party democracy and just want Saint Jeremy to rerun 2015-2019 Labour over again.
Corbyn lost the elections shortly after I became old enough to vote.
Now a decade on all this is happening to the so-called left, meanwhile Farage leads the polls.
I have become thoroughly convinced socialism is impossible on this island. My fellow "countrymen" are beyond help or reason.
My best bet is to move abroad and hope that regime change in Britain is initiated by a foreign Communist force at some long distant date.
>>2578357>Zarah represents herself, but she's been frozen out by the Corbyn/Murphy clique What for?
Sorry I'm ignorant, but I haven't been following this at all since YP started, and I'm unfamiliar with the players aside from Corbyn.
>>2578427Stop being utopian.
>>2578432>What for? Afaik when the party was just in the embryonic stage of Corbyn, his close circle of advisors (most notably his former chief of staff Karie Murphy, wife of Len Mccluskey, and speechwriter James Schneider, whose wife is Starmer's publicist lol) the independent pro-palestine MPs and other left figures like Andrew Feinstein and Salma Yaqoob, there were a lot of high level discussions about what kind of party it should be or even if it should be a party. Originally the discussions were mostly about whether it should be loose community independents alliance type deal or a more centralised party which eventually seemed to win out, despite Corbyn favouring the latter. When Zarah was invited in as she was preparing to ditch Labour, the question turned to leadership arrangements and there was apparently a zoom meeting vote for whether there should be a single leader or co-leaders with Corbyn apparently offering Zarah that he'd be leader for a year or two then hand over to her, while others like Andrew Feinstein apparently favourer co-leadership and called for a vote which was won by the co-leader idea. Corbyn abstained and apparently asked others to abstain in this vote and was privately upset it took place. Following this the original organiser group was purged of everyone who voted for co-leadership and they formed their own group, this was the point where presumably to preclude a split Zarah went public with the party announcement, claiming she and Corbyn would be co-leaders. Corbyn was mad which is why he refused to say anything about it for a few days but ultimately gave in and made up with her publicly.
The tensions were still there though and the two seperate organising groups continued to work basically independently, each getting their own database of signup contacts and donations.
At this point the more political stuff starts popping up with Zarah representing the younger and more left-wing section, being both more militant on palestine, social progressivism and socialism, while the Corbyn wing more concilliatory, seen as more pandering to the landlord/small business owner independent MPs and their social conservative and anti-socialist views. Corbyn is pretty weak and dithering by all accounts, hates confrontations and just seethes privately when things don't go his way, so the conflict was mostly articulated between Zarah and the most outspokenly reationary independent MP Adnan Hussain trading potshots on social media and promising two different visions of the party. With the already existing split in the organising group, Zarah is increasingly frozen out of meetings and decision making, hard to say what the content of conversations at this time was between them.
At some point Zarah starts privately reaching out to groups on the left intimating that the as of yet unannounced founding process for the new party will not be democratic and they will not have an opportunity to get their views across so they should start agitating for what the party should look like, how the conference should be organised, etc.
This culminates in Zarah making her most daring move of trying to secure data and money for her and Feinstein's faction by launching the party membership portal herself without consulting Corbyn and gain leverage over the Corbyn's faction. This is shut down but not before making the news and getting some 10k+ signups making up a substantial sum of member fees.
Zarah clearly hoped Corbyn would accept the fait accompli again but this time he didn't, though it has been claimed the response was actually put out by Karie Murphy without Corbyn's approval as he'd checked out, and Zarah was almost expelled and legal proceedings were launched. After some intense negotiation and severe fallout things were somewhat smoothed over again, Corbyn's faction launched their own hastily put together membership portal and announced how the process running up to conference would look. Zarah stayed in but the feinstein group effectively resigned any role and handed things to her. She seems to have been passing the money over to Corbyn bit by bit so as to remain needed but they were barely on speaking terms at this point.
With the conference announced the left started organising around it and how they could influence the constitution of the party, Zarah started courting them and appearing at various meetings advocating more left-wing positions, quoting Marx and Lenin, and talking about 'maximum member democracy'.
The left-wing groups started getting momentum at all the various meetings and assemblies, probably helped by both the drama and the new Green leader drawing most prospective members away, the 800k who signed up onto the newsletter at the party announcement ended up being barely 50k on the second member portal.
The Corbyn/Murphy clique have been increasingly paranoid and clearly used the feedback from the assemblies around the country to basically identify which topics they need to lock down so conference attendees don't get to have a say on them, the most controversial has ended up being the ban on dual membership which was consistently an unpopular proposal in the proposed constitution, but has been limited to a choice between a blanket ban and a whitelist of permitted orgs which might as well be the same thing, this together with the final version of the proposals changing the options for leadership from 'single leader vs co-leaders' to 'single leader vs collective leadership' has also pushed Sultana further left as her hopes of being leader are effectively dashed anyway, she could try running against Corbyn but likely lose and is no longer going to be the appointed successor, or rally the far left who want to depose the conservative corbyn/murphy clique to her side by endorsing their demands like open factions and collective leadership, and just be the 'parliametary spokesperson' non-leader leader.
tl;dr: she might have sincere marxist views and is revealing her powerlevel or is just burning things to the ground because she gambled on Corbyn being a pushover one too many times in a personal powergrab
>le read theory!
>train with weapons to become a hardcore revolutionary fighter!
A lot of the problems the left faces are caused by plebs thinking this applies to them. All of this means absolutely nothing if you personally aren't in a position power. And to get into a position of power, especially on the left, you need to be university educated and rich.
meanwhile modern british leftism:
>blame it on a trans person!
>train with your keyboard and mouse to become an internet warrior!
I wish I was a theorylet and a historylet and an American. Being a British person who understands any of this shit is a fate worse than death.
My life was ruined the moment my political engagement went beyond liking communism for cool songs and not being the status quo. That ruination was further solidified by getting sucked into caring, briefly, about the history and traditions of the Labour party, then turning that disillusionment into further interest in the real deal… Until it turned out it's all nonsense pushed by chronic wankers and naive yanks.
Is it over for the YP or is it still salvageable?
Just found out my landlord racially discriminates against Indians kek
>>2578637Both factions largely refused to speak to each other, Zarah held a protest outside, SWP had a tantrum and disrupted events by demanding dual party membership, Corbyn said we shouldn't even use the term "working class" because it excludes disabled people (which as a disabled person I find crazy), and the mainstream news even covered how badly it went as a headline story.
>>2578673Seems like both sides aren't going to reconcile anytime soon?
>Corbyn said we shouldn't even use the term "working class"Where did he say that?
day 2 of the conference boys
can't wait (I can wait)
>>2578820
Maintaining discipline is in many senses easier when you've got access to the carrots and sticks that governing the second most populous country on earth gives you. You cannot reward good behavior in a British party by putting someone in charge of a prefecture of eighty million people. You cannot punish good behavior in a British party by sending the person responsible for some "hotel style treatment". Fundamentally you're taking a gang of weirdoes and putting them in an environment heavy on opportunities for ego trips and weak on opportunities for basically anything else.
There is a massive competency crisis across UK politics. I'm not saying there are no lessons to learn, but if you think the answer is to simply duplicate a structure designed for a party of one-hundred million members and applying it to a party that would be lucky to get 1000 members, you're off your rocker. That would be inappropriate even for what, the 8,000 who survived the Long March. A small scale organization can take only very general advice from a large one.
That's before we even get into the issue of whether there should be a party - I'm of the firm opinion that a party is doomed before basic competence is established via other means. Someone used to emphatically make the point that until the left can run a lemonade stand, nobody should start any parties because they're much, much easier to fuck up.
If you can't sell lemonade, it doesn't matter what line you take or what your party structure is: you have a roleplaying org at best and a cult at worse. If you want to make a CPC roleplay society, that's great, have fun, but just be honest about it. Then nobody can laugh at you for wearing the uniforms and instead of debating whether the spirit of the sewell convention has been maintained, you can put the gang of four on trial every weekend. (Organizing such LARPs would, ironically, be better training than setting up a "real" org.)
p.s. I will maintain to my dying day that Oikophobia is a meme that fails to engage with modern conditions. If I hate Keir Starmer it is because he is utterly foreign, not because he is similar.
p.p.s. The left and center-left already basically appeal to the working class. (it helps that being a counter culture casually wins over young people! purely aesthetic do-nothings are much better than party-founding do nothings!) to make it appear otherwise you have to massively massage the data by going "look, the left only has woke nurses and care workers and other PMC scum, we need landlords with comedy regional accents and oil workers on £150k a year!", forgetting that we live in a service economy which very-publicly destroyed its 'traditional' working class. you aren't re-doing the miner's strike in a country with just 267 miners!
p.p.p.s. Zarah isn't the main offender in the running to the Tory press game. do you really think she's the one who told the press the 4 shit name-candidates for the party before the members were told? the ban on social media posting is a good idea (assuming a level of competency in the leadership which is improbable), although it would've saved the skin of the two independent MPs with a foot-in-mouth addiction.
>>2578089 (me)
Didnt go again today.
>Corbyn said we shouldn't even use the term "working class" because it excludes disabled people (which as a disabled person I find crazy)
That didn't happen it was a contributor from the floor.
>>2578862probably for the best
Social dems when they try to socially dem
>>2578881Who exactly are meant to be the Communists in this situation if these are all social democrats??
>>2578883Where were all the communists on Kupe's waka when he discovered Aotearoa?
If your answer is "what?" use google. If your answer is "there were none", you hopefully now see how misguided it is to presuppose the presence of communists.
Your Party members voted 52/48 for collective leadership
The LOTO faction have fucked it lmao. That's not a huge margin, if they hadn't been total cunts they could probably have gotten it the other way around…
>>2578898There's some chatter about Corbyn's lot planning to agitate for rejecting the constitution in the final ratification vote because they hate the collective leadership so much, but some think it's a ruse to stop the left from protest voting against the constitution for the undemocratic features which is currently the plan in some groups.
Obviously seems highly unlikely that the constitution won't be ratified with assad margins no matter what happens, plus no one knows what it being rejected would actually entail.
>>2578898LOTO faction are calling for people to vote against the revised constitution overall now lmao. Apparently they had to make the whatsapp chat "broadcast only" becuase people were disagreeing iwth it.
>>2578906Some people in Demsocs think this is a false flag to get the left to vote in favour of the constitution though. I personally wasn't sure and decided to just vote reject cause I had to go to work (the voting window is only like 4 hours lol), guess we'll see what happens
>>2578906Yeah seems to be happening after all. Some left groups now changing their position to voting for the constitution because Zarah is calling for it and they're worried if it's rejected the interim leadership staysin charge forever and Karie Murphy purges everyone ahead of the next conference.
>>2578883Zara is going around quoting Lenin and Rosa and meeting with communist groups but this is probably all just electioneering
>>2578883Corbyn's movement was always a socdem movement. The only reason for communists to pay attention, is there was opportunity to move the Overton window leftwards.
What is happening now, is the political realities of Corbyn's political tendency are being laid bare, causing ideological confusion, and chaos.
I've defended Corbyn in the past [and will do still in historical terms], but it's clear Corbyn's laborism, and ethical socialism has the down sides of historical social democracy's conciliatory attitude to the ruling class. Along with the aristocratic attitude of British parliamentary "socialism".
My neighbourhood gets ruined every few days for the migrant hotel protest/counter-protest. For the whole afternoon the high street is overcome by policemen and vehicles, even undercover police, in a huge operation to keep two dozen people apart hours before and after the event. Many anti-hotel protestors are from other places. They've since started protesting about other things like digital ID and net zero between waxing lyrical about how not racist they are to little avail. I haven't seen any regular faces at either protest side. Sometimes I wish the whole thing would stop and that may have to come from above, which is a worrying thought.
>>2578479>the 800k who signed up onto the newsletter at the party announcement ended up being barely 50k on the second member portal. that form had no captcha or no email confirmation link. A large % would have been bots, webcrawlers, etc.
>>2578862>Didnt go again today.did delegate-anon do a 360 and walk away? Damn, it's so over.
guy just got on stage and said 'my pronouns are gypsy'. Some autistic trans woman is currently up there bickering and shouting. Has it all been like this?
fuuuuck this clownshow. it has to end. democracy was a mistake.
>>2578979 (me)
update: just tuned back in. Some old cunt is singing Imagine by John Lennon.
Actually kill me.
>>2579011You tuned in after the conference closed, it's wrapped up
Lefts dead. Emigrating to Ireland.
>>2579015Bit drastic reaction to what was a mid conference.
So, is it still called "Your Party"?
>>2579031They confirmed it as their official name.
If this doesn't convince all of you electoralism is a dead end, nothing will.
>>2579101Until the working class has no choice but to take hostage the major industries and lifelines of the capitalist economy in this country and thus create the conditions for a real revolution, electoralism is all we have.
>>2579070he would be proud this is what we judeo bolsheviks fought for
Feeling really bad for Sultana right now.
>>2579135>Feeling really bad for Sultana right now.Why? Didn't she get a lot of what she was campaigning for?
>>2579172If Corbyn is a pilot then we are on Germanwings Flight 9525.
>>2579172can someone explain me why collective leadership is bad? seems a good way to avoid becoming hostages of the MPs, such as with the PLP.
>>2579183Look at the new party called Your Party to find out
>>2579172Lemme guess, this broke ass is calling another broke ass a broke ass?
post conf interview.
i keep wondering though is dual membership even allowed in the SWP rules?
>>2579189insightful comment. i understand now.
>>2579183>can someone explain me why collective leadership is bad?Collective leadership isn't inherently bad, but the your party conference has shown the collective leadership is most likely doomed to clique infighting, and lack of seriousness or a better word, immaturity in political conduct, strategy, and ideological matters.
trotsky turning like a propeller in his grave seeing what people do in his name
>>2579199>trotsky turning like a propeller in his grave seeing what people do in his nameDoesn't matter. They are a product of his tradition of being entryist opportunist wreckers.
>>2579200Lenin was an entryist. The only difference was he also had a brain.
YP is such a joke, you just have to laugh at what a shit show the whole thing is
>>2579201>Lenin was an entryistHow was Lenin an entryist?
>>2579198Then isn't it our job to influence the process and make it work instead of awaiting it's dooming to become a SWP piggy-bank?
>>2579200>Doesn't matter. They are a product of his tradition of being entryist opportunist wreckers.They're no doubt rubbing their hands together at this moment thinking about with the coalition of 2nd year humanities students and Crispin Flintoff/Corbynite boomers paper sales are really going to be through the roof next year.
>>2579197>i keep wondering though is dual membership even allowed in the SWP rules?It must be considering they try and do entryism into fucking everything.
>>2579189Your Party thus far has been lead by an unelected bureaucratic leadership under the healmship of one man.
>>2579229>less than half of the party voted to kick the only recognisable leader on the left>this is democracy fighting bureaucracy No this a clique fighting what the party was formed for. Fuck off. Nobody cares.
You're Petty
>>2579172WPB is a Social Hitlerite / Economically Soc Dem organisation.
YP may be an incompetent mess hardly keeping themselves from splitting but George is in no position to speak.
There's so many social Hitlerites ITT too saying everything is the fault of a brown woman and other minorities ruining the party. Get a grip.
>>2579258That brown woman is a socdem tho
>>2579198That's just factionalism, not collective leadership. Remember that the current clique want a single leader (so that Corbyn is the figurehead for all
their choices, rather than having to front their own views or - god forbid - let someone else run things)
>>2579238How is he kicked exactly? He can run for the collective leadership and either way he'll clearly be an honoured figure in the party. It's time to grow up and realise that Corbyn is a weak man who is ruled by a clique of Labour bureaucrat wreckers who just backed the wrong horse, they're not that different from Starmer and co. He didn't even want this party to exist and had to be forced into it by Zara, if he had acted faster the left wouldn't be split between YP and the Greens.
>>2579307>its time to grow up and realise that corbyn is a weak manplease by all means show your alternative
YP needs to disband. It's basically over already.
>>2579198Why would voters, who probably don’t know about ‘collective leadership’, want to support a random nobodies rather then a party with a leader, a coherent platform, party unity, and a strong message?
>>2579238>less than half of the party voted to kick the only recognisable leader on the left>this is democracy fighting bureaucracy That less than half was because voting was open for 16 hours, 8 of them overnight, because the central party picked it that way to avoid actual democracy. Funnily enough when the vote was open for two and a half days turnout was 80%! Weird that! Maybe they would have won if they hadn't tried to ratfuck others!
>>2579308>Waahh we have to follow fuhrerprinzip Brain rotted by postmodernism.
>>2579335Sure anon. I can't wait for literally who #485 to lead with a completely out of touch manifesto arguing about every single detail about party management, until he or she is replaced by literally who #486. Then Reform will win in 2029.
>>2579338Reform is winning in 2029 no matter what you drooling popular frontist moron. The question is can we build a socialist party that can build up an organised working class in any way, not 'stopping Reform'.
>>2578164Please post the poem
Insanely hilarious commentary desu
>>2579380>Reform is Hitlersub-guardian reader tier politics
>>2578357It's her husband. No misogyny, but he's very influential in those leftist groups allegedly
>>2579307>He can run for the collective leadership as far as i understand MP's cannot be part of the collective leadership, at least as far as voting rights are concerned.
Please stop trying to defend the fact the British left has shot itself in the foot. It's embarrassing and unproductive.
>>2578319i feel like this is how the vote was won. All the under 30s literally didn't know what was happening, and all the over 50s were in the swp and there is barely any membership between 30-50
>>2579439i'd say younger are more likely to be the SWPies. it's student party after all. The Crispin watcher and politically homeless corbyn-labour boomers are mostly not in the SWP, i think.
>>2579398IDK how but I found it in 2 minutes. Legitimately people were laughing all the way through it and I think she meant it sincerely.
https://youtu.be/-755kRtHWdw?t=18701 >>2579462Nah the Swappies don't have shit with the youth. They have been eclipsed on the campuses (which is their real home) by the RCP and RCG ages ago. A lot of their societies dont even function anymore.
The RCP would have done a better job if they stormed in instead
Reminder that there is literally nothing wrong with young students and their general political outlook they're dodgy on specifics but so is everyone else and if you feel otherwise: you will never be a boomer communist. You will never live contemporaneously with the USSR. You will always be a bitter channer loser unless you change path now. Which probably involves cultivating real hobbies, not this nonsense.
If they went to Oxbridge they're a wanker though.
>>2579308Collective leadership maybe??
>>2579407Ok fair enough, he will clearly still be a prominent figure though, honestly that is the best place for Corbyn, giving PR support and a spotlight to braver people with better politics than him
>>2579410Literally how? Repeating Labour would have been idiotic
>>2579338Why do you assume regular people (who will be elected mind you so hardly just random uninformed grandma or something) can't actually give good arguments? We need a new kind of political model, if all we can do is emulate Westminster parties then we're already fucked
>>2579566yeah so you've got three paths ahead of you: recognizing that most of the people you went to school with are part of the working class even if they're jerks with bad fashion sense, or wrapping yourself up in the comfortable illusion that there's a "real" working class of 60-70 year old miners from 1985 out there just waiting for a socialist party that doesn't have hipsters and genderblobs and tarty birds ruining the all-important optics.
Or ignoring politics for the remainder of your valuable youth, paying the minimum necessary attention and still - statistically - backing all the right things as if by accident Your mum party.
Actually it's *My* Party, and you're not invited!
Can people give me a run down of how Your Party entered this mess? How we got from Jeremy (reluctantly because the party announcement was literally out of the blue) and Zara saying they're going to create a new unified socialist party to whatever the fuck is going on now?
>>2579883crazy to me that you lot all went from agreeing a member led democratic socialist party to endlessly seething whenever you see any members democracy because it doesn't look respectable enough.
>>2579887But I don't want a member led party. Not without defined organisational rules and discipline. Lenin made this very clear.
Many people are unaware that the UK is littered with countless gas chambers still in active use for murder of innocents.
You see in the UK the law mandates that pigs are slaughtered by gas chamber. It's considered humane.
As of the 2024 data from gov.uk, 90% of UK pigs are killed by the RSPCA approved method of "high concentration CO2 gas".
This takes approximately a minute of intense pain, panic and suffocation before losing consciousness, seizuring, and gradually suffocating.
According to the European Food Safety Authority:
>The high concentration CO2 gas typically used is highly aversive and painful to pigs, and still takes at 47-60 seconds on average to stun them in test conditions. >The pain and distress of high CO2 concentrations is caused by irritation mucous membranes such as the eyes, mouth and airways, distress, and causes pigs to show aversive behaviours such as gasping, vocalization, and trying to escape.
In contrast, 10% of UK gas chambers do not use this "fast acting" CO2 method, preferring a slower and more drawn out suffocation.
Imported carcasses coming from mainland Europe are frequently killed via more brutal and bloody methods.
Stunning (not unconsciousness) is induced via electrocution or blunt force to the skull via machine or by hand. Of course, sometimes the animals will attempt to dodge this, and follow up strikes are required.
The panicked and dazed animal then has it's throat slit and is left to bleed out. Of course, the animals are kept together, and can see what happens to those before as they wait for their turn.
This method is commonplace in Denmark, Spain, Italy, and so forth.
Think about that next time you eat a sausage or some bacon.
These are animals the pass cognitive tests with better results than household dogs. They have the self awareness to recognise their reflection in mirrors and puddles, unlike a dog.
Would you treat a dog like that?
If you don't get the message already, why don't you go vegan, or at least vegetarian, or even just reduce meat when we leave in an era of mass produced alternatives with identical taste and pricing?
Is it the cruelty in particular that you enjoy about it? What other reason could there be?
>>2579228Anyone want to do entryism into the SWP for the bants?
>>2579222thought that was the roll safe guy. lmao.
>>2579197>i keep wondering though is dual membership even allowed in the SWP rules?it isn't
>>2579909>Anyone want to do entryism into the SWP for the bants? based, unfortunately their policies prohibit it
>>2579882this is correct
>>2579882
Obviously Zarah is far from perfect and has her own career ambitions but if you think of all the YP MPs at the moment she isn't the most likely to be disiciplined and follow the party line you're retarded. All the Indpendent Alliance MPs are petty bourgeois/rentier islamists who hate socialism and feel zero obligation or commitment to following the will of the party, and Corbyn is barely better and exclusively follows his individual consience (or what his advisors tell him) and will absolutely do what he wants before following party line, which is why he wanted to be leader so bad so he can set the agenda according to his own social pacifist socdem priorities. Zarah is currently the most likely of the MPs to actually follow the instructions of the party.
>>2579692>and tarty birdsFor the record the tarty birds are the strongest of comrades. The genderqueers dont understand the concept of workers solidarity but someone who goes to the durham miners' gala in a crop top would die for the organised working class.
>>2579867You are (not) in a Part
(You) Party
>>2579882You really don't like Zarah Sultana as though she's the one who (for example) got Corbyn to go out and tell the press the SWP were banned because they're registered with the electoral commission, only for it to be immediately noticed that the SWP are
not registered with the electoral commission.
>>2579883There's a clique of ex-Labour people around Corbyn who want cushy jobs and control over the party. As in 2017 it's supposed to be a sort of vibes-based thing where people mostly follow the leader - and since he's a leader who doesn't lead, that means following whoever has his ear.
Sultana upset this dynamic because (a) she's not part of that circle and (b) she's willing to shoot at an open goal, which makes it hard to paint her as a wrecker when she's the only one pointing out that there are elephants in the room.
>>2579893The idea Zarah is a SWP entryist is laughable. She used to be a Labour MP! Corbyn and the SWP were best mates (not because
he is one of them, but because they both show up to literally every protest), he was chatting to their national secretary on the train to conference! You're telling me that this guy, who didn't even have the force to launch the party, has the cold-blooded killer instinct to sit there chatting away to a bloke while thinking in the back of his head "lol, you're purged, Trot."?
r.e. parties: Party-based campaigning is bad for competency because you either have to focus on the party, or on the issues. A campaign for the federalization of england
independent of a party (it is after all a non-party issue, something the Lib Dems love, something some Labour people - like mayors - might go along with, something YP is likely to endorse, something even the SNP and Plaid might make warm noises about…) might be useful and can even have its success measured via where the issue appears in polls, etc, but making it part of a party just subsumes it to nonsense. Admitting failure is hard, so instead of doing so when the party gets 15 votes at its first election people will turn to praising the fundamental correctness of their line, the graphic design of the manifesto, the number of candidates run (at £500 a pop, down the drain)… And if you realistically want to break into politics, your line winds up being less "a federal england" and more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rubbish_PartyI'm all for only letting people advance if they can demonstrate competency, but it only works in a party that's already got some power, or which is going places. Imagine the CPB adopted these principles - do you think they'd
never advance anyone on the grounds that they're all completely and utterly useless, or do you think they'd start promoting people by hyping up their failures? (comrade, for services to the real movement, having drafted our 2024, 2019, and 2017 manifestos, you're hereby promoted…)
>>2579894In theory, individual consumption choices don't have an impact and so eating meat but campaigning for it to be banned is the rational option. Demand is externally created.
There's a bit more to it than that, details of the specifics of pricing etc, but I'm not particularly interested in arguing it because I've developed the line of thought further and decided that while the substance of the individual-choice based arguments for veganism is incorrect, it is marketable, and marketing is a structural force rather than an individual consumption choice.
(That is to say: while one's individual consumption choices
don't have an impact, the aggregated impact of hostile marketing making meat less fashionable
might because it can move group behavior. Given I'm in favor of this, it's better not to argue against it anymore.)
>>2579920The Tarty Birds of today are the Susan's and Tahira's of tomorrow!
Got a Shen Yun brochure in the mail. It has quotes from famous celebrities and politicians telling people to watch this cult-run reactionary garbage.
>>2579172He is such a liberal lmao
>>2579944It's wild how they're allowed to advertise that garbage basically anywhere completely unrestrictedly.
I remember seeing these big advertisements everywhere in the Paris subway when I was over there last year.
>>2579955Because the Fulan Gong is literally funded, or was funded, by the US Government for a while because of their anti-chinese media.
People forget these guys believe gays and blacks are not going to any positive afterlife, or that they believe the Chinese Communists harvest their organs because Fulan Gong members are at a higher sphere of humanity than normal people. They don't mention that explicitly in their innocent little Chinese opera, though. Because then people would think they're batshit insane.
>>2579956They're basically completely insane creationists who believe in magic and think their leader is a divine spirit that can levitate read their minds
From what I remember they do have those messages in their operas though, people went there and were really surprised by all the creationism and homophobia when they just expected a fun chinese musical lol.
They're everywhere, my friends have received those pamphlets about organ harvesting as well in my country. They do generally not mention that they think it's because their organs are magical though lmao
>>2579962That's what I mean they show it but they never say it's because they're spiritual super men.
>>2579975Don't say Marxism it's REALLY scary guys uuuhuuuuuuuu
>>2579975>>2579977 (me)
Seriously I am trying work out what the fuck this is in reference to
68/31 for trans liberation going in the party's constitution
that opens up a viable route to winning the next election: just promise that if elected, your party will use the leadership clique's boiling piss to spin a turbine and get electricity bills down.
>>2580010either some nobody'll have mentioned it at conference, or he's referring to Sultana roleplaying as lenin, or he's just posting unhinged nonsense because that's his well-established hobby.
>>2579938>blaming others for one's own retardation.Sad.
>>2579975After watching conference I'm totally convinced this lot of freaks jumped before being pushed, poisoning the well on the way out for good measure.
>>2580015The purpose of language is to communicate concepts. You failed to do so by using what I assume is some community in-joke.
>c-can we not call ourselves socialist w-w-we might s-scare the electorate
>can we not say "working class" w-what about the disabled that can't work
For once the Trots are the sensible ones in this scenario.
>>2578084Pretty much all the vote results are out now:
>pre-set motions decided by Karie Murphy<member submitted motions that were allowed to be voted on
>Should the party say it's socialist?Yes (good)
>Should the party say it's working class?Yes (good)
>Should the party say it wants to create the broadest alliance?Yes (bad)
>Leadership: single or collective?Collective (good)
>Dual membership: blanket ban or whitelist?Whitelist (both permitted options were bad)
>Quorum for branch formation?20% (good but still too hight tbh)
>Branch spending autonomous or decided by regional bodies?Autonomous (good)
>CEC elections: national list with reserved seats for scotland and wales or distinct english region constituencies plus scotland and wales?Distinct english region constituencies plus scotland and wales (absolutely terrible)
<No bribes or second jobs for MPs?Yes (good)
>Party name?Your Party (all options bad but this one at least saves everyone a rebrand, can hopefully change later when boomer hippy wreckers are out)
>Trade union commission?Yes (bad)
<Commiting to trans liberation? (x2)Yes (x2) (good)
<SPEW/TUSC anti-austerity people's budget in local elections? (x2)Yes (x2) (bad)
>Support indepdentent socialists in 2026 elections or only own candidates?Support independents (good)
>Term limits for officials?Yes (good)
>Target specific seats or stand everywhere in 2026?Target specific seats (good)
>Local policy developed by branches and assemblies or online submissions?online submissions (bad)
>Motions brought to conference by branches or by online submissions?online submissions (bad)
>Conference attended by branch delegates or mix of delegates and lottery winners?mix of delegates and lottery winners (retarded as fuck)
<Party officials recallable by simple majority at member meeting?Yes (good)
>Voting at conference for delegates only or online for all members?online for all members (awful)
<Add 'anti-oppression' to socialist and anti-imperialist principles?Yes (retarded)
All in all it's a shitshow. The leadership letting everyone vote on this shit was always going to make it difficult to get them to vote against online voting, but it's going to make shit so easy for the right and completely disempower local branches. There might as well never be a conference again because it will just be a repeat of this one for ever, a meaningless rally. Delegates might as well not bother showing up.
The collective leadership being elected in undefined 'english region' constituencies also means it will basically just be by fptp and end up filled with local grandees who get a selfie taken with Corbyn or Sultana, making it difficult for the left to get much authentic representation on it.
Also, if you want to know the real scale of the ineptitude on display, several of these motions which were member submitted (such as duplicate pro-trans, anti-oppression, recall motions) were only included for a vote because the chair/presentation maker fucked up and showed one unintentionally and some people went to protest it in the standing orders room (which was basically a busybox to get dissenters to leave the hall) and they just gave in and posted all the member-submitted motions between the top one and the one that was shown. Clearly they literally only had a list of all the motions ordered by number of endorsements and didn't even bother to composit them or make them fit for voting because they were never intending on putting more than a single one up for a vote.
Final interesting tidbit, in the 12-month strategy document votes, the two SPEW/TUSC motions were brought forward and put for a vote despite them not having even been close to the two most endorsed motions for that doc. Pretty solid evidence SPEW made a backroom deal with Corbyn/Murphy to have TUSC's operation get integrated smoothly in YP. Some parties clearly don't get purged, even when these ones actually are electoral unlike the SWP.
>>2580026the party voted to call itself socialist and, while i assume it will have voted to call itself working class, there's an opening for not using the term in britain specifically because it causes more confusion than it solves. (working class landlords with the right comedy accents, "middle class" tesco employees in shithole towns because they've got a sociology degree and a yankee twang from too many youtube video essays.)
I feel like trots would improve drastically If thry introduced the concept of self-criticism into their politics and meetings and whatnot.
>>2580024Adnan Hussain never cared about anything apart from Palestine. People like Shockat Adam and the deputy mayor for Tower Hamlets do care about about poverty and shit and are behind it.
Call it something better than "Your Party" and then I'll join.
>>2580031"working class" makes more sense than "service proletariat" even though we are a mostly service proletariat
>>2580030Cheers anon. <3
I don't really understand the point of branch meetings if a lot of things was voted to be online. Will there be online discussion forums created to hash things out? There are not many worlds where I don't see this going badly.
><SPEW/TUSC anti-austerity people's budget in local elections? (x2)Why bad? As a filthy casual I tend to think TUSC are okay.
You shouldn't expect randos essentially to make your manifesto for you. Surely you should make a manifesto and have it tweaked by the membership instead.
>>2580038Why do politicos always get the most clearly autistic and generally weird/offputting people (like the lady who got up and started shouting at everyone near the end of yday) as their tokens to represent trans stuff at these things btw? Basically every trans person I've ever known in my almost 40 years has essentially been normal people trying to live their lives.
Why dont tou get normal people? You wouldnt get the most slovenly and unsocialised members (who generally act and talk like filthy amerikkkans) of any other demographic to represent them, would you?It's almost as if they want to force the issue and do trans people a disservice. For thst matter why do thry even say yes? At least some will have a sense of self awareness. l
Not saying I could do a better job, but ain't nobody telling me to get on a stage and embarass myself.
>>2580038Yeah it's really damaging to deliberative democracy, to the autonomy and power of the grassroots. 'One member, one vote' plebescitary voting destroyed the trade union movement in this country when it was enforced by Thatcher for that very purpose, and did the same thing to Momentum in more recent history.
With a weak and disempowered conference made up of people who don't actually make the decision and don't have a strong democratic mandate from their branch, there's no way to challenge the leadership and set the agenda of the party. The people who formulate the questions and decide which ones get published in the first place decide everything, then an apathetic mass membership votes on their phones and everything is reduced to a 'get out the vote' campaign. It's poison and reinforces the power of conservative bureaucracies.
>Will there be online discussion forums created to hash things out?No one knows, except the unelected people at the top who will be setting it all up as suits them.
The only hope is that despite the obstacles, thanks to the clique at the top being inept and not winning themselves much love over the past months, the CEC election next month will get a good number of solid left-wingers standing on denouncing the undemocratic sham of the conference and putting forward a comprehensive review of party democracy to be put to a conference next year before the threshold for amending the constitution moves from 50% to 2/3 majority and we fix this bullshit.
>Why bad? As a filthy casual I tend to think TUSC are okay.Maybe it's an overreaction, TUSC are fine for what they are but I personally oppose the idea of standing candidates for the next local elections at all because we need to work out a proper party programme first and find reliable people who will be disciplined party line following representatives. At the moment my concern is whoever they get as candidates are just gonna be the hippy boomer localists aligned with Corbyn who are not and never will be the sort of people a socialist party needs in office, so its best to save ourselves the effort of rooting them out later. Also with this whole shitshow and even if it was much smoother with the elections so close it won't even be an accurate barometer of popular support, we'll do poorly and be demoralised. Better wait, organise, plan, get our name out there, let Reform destroy Labour on their own to deny the right the ammunition that we're splitting the vote and letting Farage in, etc.
Also as mentioned, I suspect they've made a deal with Corbyn/Murphy and got to skip the line while more popular motions were unheard so the undemocratic stitch up to get their entirely uncontroversial anti-austerity stand is just off to me.
We are now the official Your Party forum.
>>2580063
Oh boo hoo the radlibs lost
>>2580038Local branches campaign locally, online voting for whole party activities, its one part that actually makes a lot of sense
>>2580066
Trans people are a fact of our material reality, anon. They are not going anywhere. So long as we don't reach Die Linke levels of stupidity, the trans issues raised are perfectly valid.
Your party if you want to.
>>2580030I voted for most of these things, apart from dual membership.
I voted against the trans liberation thing, not because i don't believe in it, but because it now going to be a wedge by which the radlibs further alienate large amounts of people for daring to suggest we don't go along with absolutely 100% of what the lobby says. ( I believe in 80% of it)
Voting online for all members is good, provided the local branches also act as a discursive space AND there are proper general forums set up for discussion.
Its 2025 we do not need to be in the same room to communicate with each other, on top of that, i hate everyone in the party, so I don't trust any delegates.
>mix of delegates and lottery winnersis actually good. When it was all lottery winners, that was dumb, but this serves to blunt the power of delegates and mitigate chicanery and fuckery to some extent by halving their overall power- but you still get that function where people back somebody who is good at communicating and arguing for things. Its actually kind of good
>anti oppression yeh means literally fuck all so i voted for it as a middle ground on the trans thing
when you lay it all out its really not that bad besides the dual membership thing. We need to campaign for a SWP purge, the rest can stay for now i suppose
and as an example of the trans issue causes problems: we have already at one conference had one literal sex offender take the stage under the guise of trans rights and the trots supported her. This sort of stuff has to stop, dead. It is complete succour for the reform lot.
This is like that DSA clip (you know the one) with the exact same context. The DSA is much more centralised and socialist now and the party environment less liberal but that won't stop that clip being posted. The fact people voted against most of the dumb things being said will not stop people posting the dumb things being said.
>>2580074
I'm sure the Nazis said similar things.
>>2580066
Socialism is on the platform though? It was voted through by majority
>>2580078He's obsessed, anon.
I'm sure all the TERFs who demanded everyone stick to the party line will refrain from wrecking now that the line is trans liberation, right? Discipline and all that. :)
>>2580087yeh well i hope Charlie the bus driver approaching retirement gets kicked right out in an incident that becomes a national scandal, and trans activists sent him hate mail and threats, for saying "hmmm not so sure about that one" when trans activists suggest children as young as 3 should be given mind and body bending drugs and extensive surgeries brewed by large pharmaceutical companies on the off chance they might later feel like being trans
>>2580099
ok bro
>>2580070>Its 2025 we do not need to be in the same room to communicate with each otherNo one says branch meetings can't be online. The important thing is that meetings happen and people discuss and convince eachother, take votes and give a mandate to delegates. Decision making exclusively taking place based on onloine referendums and polls only atomises and reinforces the conservative apathetic tendencies of people without providing weapons to fight those tendencies.
>i hate everyone in the party, so I don't trust any delegates. this is a you problem. Grow up and engage with people. If you genuinely believe this supporting online votes only makes it so that you will forever remain in a party of people you hate, until you finally cancel your membership and add it to the big list of leftist fails we're all curating without having done anything to prevent that outcome in your myopia.
>We need to campaign for a SWP purgeabsolutely retarded, if you think it will stop at the SWPies you might as well give up because anyone who isn't a hippy boomer socdem localist is getting purged sooner or later. The only thing to do now is campaign against the ban, elect a CEC that refuses to enforce it and repeals it altogether at the next conference because this one wasn't even given no bans as an option because of the stitch up from the top. Our literal only hope is a mass party with open factions because the only alternative is closed secret factions and an eternal witchhunt against actual communists of every stripe in the name of placating the media, which will never, ever happen.
>>2580098why would you hope for these things? it is not good to wish ill on others. why waste your wishes?
>>2580063
alright glinner, settle down
You're* party
>>2580102>trotskyist detected
>branch meetings i think local branch meetings are good and should be in person and also streamed online with a chat for maximum accesibility. I believe in a member lead, discourse lead party, within strict limits to actually defend that ethos.
>this is a you problem.actually its not, im a very engaging person, members of the swp who become irate if you mention their party while pretend they are not themselves in it, are not.
Currently, the party is full of people i hate - left wing activists of the liberal and trotskyist variety.
I hope that it becomes a vehicle for mass public engagement, people i do not hate. It is in fact your fault for being liberal or trotskist but demanding to be in control and also being a dreadful person who is bad at socialising and bad at socialism.
>absolutely retarded, if you think it will stop at the SWPiesnobody is calling for anybody else to be kicked out. The SWP themselves do not allow factions or dual carding why do you think that is? They latch onto and destroy everything they can, it is what they have always done, trot.
>anyone who isn't a hippy boomer socdem localistthis is the politics of the SWP just they dress it up in revolutionary language. Who else do you think attends stand up to racism marches, trot?
> Our literal only hope is a mass party with open factions because the only alternative is closed secret factionsno, the alternative is a functioning democracy where the factions aren't pre existing parties. You kick out every single SWP member you will lose probably 1000 people. Well worth it for the ruckus they will cause.
I have no problem with factions in a mass party that have arisen due to the parties application of a mass line, i have a problem with an infiltration, you are just pretending, trot, that isn't what it is, because you people, fundamentally, are completely dishonest, on every level, and its so FUCKING annoying because the only people you manage to trick and the uninitiated and you use them to sell everything else down the line its disgusting.
>and an eternal witchhunt against actual communists i am an open communist in the party so are many others. You, trot, are not representative of every communist, it is merely your specific wrecker brand that anyone has a problem with and wants gone.
I feel no fear of purge, because i am not acting in a subversive manner, trot
>>2580104being sarcastic, but that is what will happen i give it 2/3 months before the first incident
>>2580112
what went wrong in your life that this is how you spend your Sunday afternoon?
in full candor: what went wrong in mine is that I failed to cultivate enough friendships with others when it was easy, a mistake I am now rectifying. it is in the spirit of so-doing that I ask you the question. none of this matters.
>>2580074
>Pedophiles and serial killers are also part of our material reality, should they get special privileges too?
Argument ad le bad
>>2580072Are 'the trots' supposed to do a full background check before they clap for anyone? Dumb MF.
>>2580098>just dreaming up things to be mad about>>2580113The vast majority of the people who wanted more democracy in YP are not in the SWP, maybe you could call them 'trots' if you want, because that's the dominant tendency of the British left, that doesn't mean they're cynical entryists, this party was advertised the whole time as a democratic, socialist party where the members would decide things.
Also maybe the SWP don't allow dual membership, I don't know, but the leadership also kicked out people from Counterfire which isn't even an electoral party in any way. They just want to root out the organised left.
>You kick out every single SWP member you will lose probably 1000 people. Well worth it for the ruckus they will cause. They couldn't even get 2000 people to come to the founding conference, the number of people who actually voted online was what, I doubt even 10,000? They can't afford to just kick out everyone who doesn't agree with the leadership.
The question of whether the SWP should be kicked is not the same as the question of whether the SWP can be arbitrarily kicked on nonsense grounds.
Boot them out for being rape trots, sure, but you can't just go "nonono you're a member of another registered party" to people who are not, in fact, part of a registered party!
>>2580146>Are 'the trots' supposed to do a full background check before they clap for anyone? Dumb MF.Its not just about clapping, but sharing on social media etc, which, yes, you should do. "who is this person i endorse" is a good idea.
>just dreaming up things to be mad aboutimplying puberty blockers aren't real.
>The vast majority of the people who wanted more democracy in YP are not in the SWP,yes, indeed, i am one of them.
>maybe you could call them 'trots' if you want yes because they are members of trotskist organisations and advocate trotskyist politics
> this party was advertised the whole time as a democratic, socialist party where the members would decide things.which is correct, however, it should still defend itself from the manipulation of democratic processes, such as by organisations like the SWP.
>Also maybe the SWP don't allow dual membership,they dont
>but the leadership also kicked out people from Counterfirewhich is a split from the SWP
>They can't afford to just kick out everyone who doesn't agree with the leadership.it isn't everyone, but a select group of known trouble makers and subverters. Conferences have limited sizes. Many people were turned off by the specific actions of such trotskyists.
The votes were sitting around 22,000 people actually
>>2580153i don't give one single shit about the electoral commission why the fuck would i give a fuck about british state legalism, i don't care at all, not one bit, you shouldn't either and the fact they'll lean on this shows how incoherent they are.
I don't care what charge they have to Trump up either. Sometimes you have to get criminals on taxes. Whatever.
>>2580161>The votes were sitting around 22,000 people actually 23k eligable voters, turnout was between 6k and 10k for almost all votes, the exception being the name which was 16k and was open the longest.
My fines got sold off to a debt collection agency because the idiotic fine company sent all their letters to my old address and now I have to pay it off in 3 months or they will like come to reposess all my stuff and probably rape me or something
>>2580161How is it a 'manipulation' for the members to want more socialism? It's not as if 'dissolve YP and merge it into SWP' was on the ballot. Why shouldn't we accept people from various parties? Uniting the left is the biggest possible achievement. By the way - TUSC people clearly did some kind of backroom deal to get their 'anti-austerity budget' shit on the agenda even though it wasn't anywhere near one of the most endorsed motions so who is doing the manipulation here?
If you watch the conference you can see/hear that the mood of attendees was overwhelmingly with the 'trouble makers' whenever they tried to break from the format.
>>2580161It's the clique who tried to expel the SWP who hide behind british state legalism. You should very much care that (a) the people you're empowering to arbitrarily expel others are doing so, and (b) that they can't trump up a better charge. Should we perhaps expel the SWP for the Kennedy assassination, or for drawing up Liz Truss' budget, or for teaching Adnan Hussein how to use Twitter?
>>2580113>i think local branch meetings are good and should be in person and also streamed online with a chat for maximum accesibility. I believe in a member lead, discourse lead party, within strict limits to actually defend that ethos. Then you should support decisions being made by and in branches, not on online referendums sent out to atomised members.
>actually its not, im a very engaging personGreat, then you should have no problem being active in your branch, engaging with your fellow party members, gaining new members, discussing and voting on issues and electing or being elected a delegate. You're delusional if you think a party where decisions are made by online poll and conferences are just rallies with no power can be the vehicle for socialist and democratic politics.
>nobody is calling for anybody else to be kicked out.What do you think the rule stating dual membership is banned means for every other socialist/communist party, trot or not? Do you think that you can make a socialist party exclusively from the mythical unorganised, sect-of-one socialists who aren't in any group?
>The SWP themselves do not allow factions or dual carding why do you think that is?Because they're a sect and they have terrible politics. Further I will say that if you truly, truly, hate the sects, whether it's the swp or whoever else for their practices, culture or politics, and you want to see them gone and destroyed, the most effective way to do that is keep them in the room with us and make this party a success.
Because the only thing that can dissolve them is common work and communication within a wider sea of the left. If they leave the room they'll persist on outside for decades to come being shit.
I wish I was an American in the DSA
Not active, mind you. Fuck that, if I was an American I'd be out being cool. But I'd have been memed into joining half a decade ago and forgotten to cancel my subscription despite teetering on the edge of money troubles at all times because I'm a dumb American.
Instead I get to sit and read this shit. Bleak.
>>2580177>How is it a 'manipulation' for the members to want more socialism?its sentences like this that make you lot so annoying.
"we just want more socialism, if you don't agree with us on everything it means you want less."
No, I want socialism, and every example of AES every has had to deal with subverters and perverters. That is the socialism that works.
>Why shouldn't we accept people from various parties?The option that actually went through allows for this, but still allows us to get rid of bad actors. The SWP are bad actors. No matter how much you all want to talk around it, and try and make it about something else, they are bad actors, and should be got rid of.
>uniting the left. The left is not very big. I'd prefer a party that can unite the whole working class, i'm not that bothered about uniting with problem groups on the left. As it stands, most of the left can indeed be members, just not this one problem group.
>other people are doing manipulation i am also against it.
>>2580178like i said, i don't care what they are hiding behind in order to expel the SWP or its analogs, i don't care if they are registered or not. If it helps to get rid of them, cool.
>arbitrary. it isn't, they are being expelled because they are known wreckers. Its funny nobody is even trying to deny it, they are just saying "we should let the wreckers in anyway" and then give some entirely liberal reason as to why. The fact is, there is no reason, wreckers out, simple as.
>>2580180
>Then you should support decisions being made by and in branches, not on online referendums sent out to atomised members.if the members are in branches they are not atomised.
>You're delusional if you think a party where decisions are made by online poll and conferences are just rallies with no power can be the vehicle for socialist and democratic politics. this is a very long run on sentence that makes zero sense could you tidy it up a bit
>Do you think that you can make a socialist party exclusively from the mythical unorganised, sect-of-one socialists who aren't in any group? that is most socialists in the UK for the precise reason that all you sectoids are toxic and anti social
>Because they're a sect and they have terrible politics. and yet you want them shaping your party. It isn't their lack of dual carding policy that makes them a sect with terrible politics lmao.
> the most effective way to do that is keep them in the room with us and make this party a success.maybe, but i think that would all be a lot easier if there was a preexisting body that wasn't so heavily and fundamentally influenced by them. It will now be very difficult to keep them in line. They have been greatly energised you can see them all getting wide in group chats today.
> If they leave the room they'll persist on outside for decades to come being shit.theyll persist on the fringes of society where nobody gives a shit as they do now.
>>2580189you're a moron you should be beaten
>>2580192in case you hadn't noticed UK dsa just formed
>>2580055Thank you for your considered reply, anon. I think i agree wrt standing candidates. Also very worried that if it is the bare minimum online voting system without serious and organised discussion (i don't mean doing the boomers favorite thing, that is endless zoom calls, btw) i feel it's going to be low-turnout, rife with dodgy practices or, at best, merely a thoughtless box-ticking exercise for the faithful. Not sure if this can sustain itself, let alone replicate itself and grow.
>>2580214If they were expelled for being known wreckers then Corbyn wouldn't have been chatting to their secretary on the train. The clique was fine with the SWP to start with and then changed their minds later.
Which, again, tells you that the clique are total liabilities! If your line is that we can sacrifice everything to stop them, our first sacrifice should be the clique who were perfectly fine letting a cuckoo into the nest until it turned out it wasn't just Zarah Sultana's food it would steal…
>>2580222
Have you read the actual essay? It's incredible, the average post here has a more mature writing style.
In America you can turn in middle school level prose at uni, and you don't even have to have Norman ancestry. Greatest country on earth bar none.
>>2580227Yeah I accidentally posted it in the wrong thread, my b
>>2580218Exactly. Some people acting as if Corbyn didn't make the SWP circuit, appearing and promoting YP at their meetings, their Marxism festival, doesn't attend every SUTR demonstration with them and isn't chatting with their leaders on whatsapp. He used the SWP for their manpower and their channels to promote the party, then Karie decided to make a high-profile purge on the eve of conference, which hugely backfired since half of conference was everyone booing the chair over all this shit.
>>2580218>The clique was fine with the SWP to start with and then changed their minds later.yes because in the week leading up the SWP were in group chats all across the country talking about "storming the conference" and forcing emergency votes on party leadership, with of course, the various trot parties as the only organized factions who could feasibly field candidates at zero notice. The benefit of the doubt was given, and guess what, they immediately began coup plotting.
If I wanted to join the SWP I would have. Nobody does though, wonder why.
>Which, again, tells you that the clique are total liabilities! Yes, they are. I still would rather have them than the SWP.
>If your line is that we can sacrifice everything to stop thembut that isn't my line. We would have had to sacrifice literally nothing to stop them, the only thing we would have lost is max 1000 SWP. Which is actually a gain.
>>2580231 ^^^ They were given a chance to act like normal people, they did not.
>>2580287Why do you think the people objecting in the conference hall are SWP? They literally were not allowed to enter.
>>2580290i see you've stopped answering point for point. Some key members of the SWP were purged but not all members of the SWP. On top of that various other trots were not purged and the SWP became a lighting rod for them. Prior to this they had been agitated on the back of other non trot groups who just wanted more democracy in the party.
Using this, they tried to force the emergency election detailed above, leading to the whole debacle. There was, until this point, no problem. Kind of glad it happened now though, things out in the open.
They literally did entryism on the entryists and then couldnt contain themselves long enough not to cause a scene.
You try speaking to them, any even slight crit of the SWP will result in them getting emotional and aggressive, all the while pretending they aren't in the SWP, aren't a trotskyist, etc etc. They literally just lie and scheme.
It sounds mad, but one day you will experience it and realise why they elicit the rancor they do
Your Party have voted 68.46% in favour of explicitly mentioning trans liberation as a party policy, with 31.54% against.
>>2580066
>No the radlibs won, hence why “trans liberation” is a platform but socialism isn’t
If you actually cared in the slightest you'd know YP have enshrined that they are an explicitly socialist mass party of the working class.
But you are just another culture war warrior, a reactionary idpol obsessive to whom bashing the queers matters more than class.
You're more than welcome to join your fellow radlibs and social hitlerites in the CPB, WPB, etc.
>>2580294wtf is the "SWP" all I know is that they are a tiny trot party in the US
Strategic victory for the Sultanist faction. Now that the party has an internal structure and a constitution it is much harder to pull any shenanigans, without the capturing key posts. Praise allah.
>>2580322They're a Cliffite/Trotskyite party that sells newspapers and hands out placards at counter demos.
Used to be fairly sizable until it was revealed in 2013 they has a massive rape problem within their ranks that was covered up.
Since then they've just been waiting for a new left wing party they can infiltrate and turn into a Trotskyite group.
>>2580392
voting reform uk then my lad?
>>2580392
Comparing Your Party to the Nazis because they didn't exclude trans people is wild. I hope you get the support you need.
>>2580214The UK is too aesthetically bleak to have a DSA. When americans act ridiculous, it's in their nature. A yank with a fagcent pretending he's the next Stalin (surrounded by jazz-hands libs in a Democrat fanclub) is charming in a way that a gormless arrogant English twat droning on to an audience of bored coffin-dodging TERFs, people who actually sell newspapers on a drizzly weekend, and bearded Owen Jones cosplayers never will be. You can't even have fun being ridiculous in Britain because the people sneering and ridiculing you will be Britons. It would be less galling to be judged by a slug.
>>2580407>If Your Party looks like pic related in 4 years time I'll be genuinely surprised.Make it happen
>>2580407Having Maoists, MLs, Trots, LeftComs, Eco-Socialists, Libertarian Socialists all part of the same organisation is totally fucking wild from a British perspective.
Such a thing could never happen here. It wouldn't last 30 seconds.
>>2580414>>2580415Someone else has to make the official You Party Maoist caucus. I am too affraid.
>>2580416That is the Revolutionary Communist Group. They are Maoists (really Hoxhaists) who act like trots.
>>2580479
posturing poseur.
your metaphor isn't even good: why the NSDAP and not the SPD, particularly on /leftypol/ where both are equally damning?
>>2580340Oh dear Lorrrd, imagine explaining to our American comrade the hilarity of the AWL et al.
There hould be a sticky of all the lefty groups and a description
What should be done with the mentally ill and the unemployed, and so on?
Is it worth engaging with them and trying to get them politically active? Are they just another part of the lumpenproletariat?
>>2580618>What should be done with the unemployed, and so on? Give them jobs
>>2579072Popular Alliance was cooler tbh
So is Your Party salvageable?
so is it YORP, or YP. what's the officialest contraction.
I think it's very weird how Shen Yun, the propaganda arm of Falun Gong, which is an extreme right wing neo-fascist conspiracy theorist anti-vax anti-medicine cult, is allowed to promote their shows on TV adverts.
Their "performances" literally show Marx as some evil demon destroying China complete with storm clouds and tsunamis ffs LMAO
>>2580703>Marx as some evil demon destroying China complete with storm clouds and tsunamisthat's kinda awesome, he's like Moses in a way
>>2581067
yfw any party that implements collective leadership keeps voting for pro-lgbt because your reactoid freak position on it is a severe minority
Should have been a straight sortitionist party instead of trying to have any other policy position. Trans-rights? Immigration? Taxation? What was Jez thinking? The common British people need to be uplifted into power, but in typical fashion, instead they are losing the ancient right of juries. A clown show indeed!
>>2581159
if you do i'll never report one of your posts again. "scouts honor" as the yanks say.
>>2581159
please for the love of god do this
Are there any political parties that have actually found success with a 'collective leadership' model?
>>2581199Isn't the collective leadership thing just a big cope about not wanting to be seen as le ebil authoritarian leftists? I really don't see the point of it
>>2581208only the anarchist federation does it
>>2580030>Conference attended by branch delegates or mix of delegates and lottery winners?I like the idea of elected delegates from branches and some sortioned members too. In the Labour party you'd get factions like the SWP always trying to stitch up the delegate vote to conference and then not bothering to vote in line with their branches wishes.
A small percentage of sortitioned people helps keep the factions in check to an extent and makes sure that when they do their political education they target everyone not just their sect members.
>>2581208Le democracy is good, therefore, the more democracy, the more gooder your movement is. Who cares about proles when we can vooooot
>>2581183As if we don't have enough british lolcows
juries to be scrapped in england and wales for crimes of less than three years
>>2581217We can only reach the proles by giving Jeremy Corbyn, Jenny Formy, and Karie Murphy power.
Wonder what Marx would've made of all this
So, is Your Party is just a mental asylum for people who want a British DSA equivalent?
Juries will be scrapped for all trials where the "likely sentence", whatever that means, is less than 3 years.
Now all those pesky Palestine Action protestors can be fast tracked to sentencing by an untrained volunteer magistrate with no right to argue their case before their peers!
>>2581505Actually existing Posadism.
Trans and intersex girls will now be banned from Girlguiding organisations such as Brownies following the latest EHRC guidance.
Another glorious victory for Britain!
>>2581538Dick Blast coming in for the resecue to protect our queen. based.
>>2581538I also thought marginally better of Ali than to join the pile ons.
>>2581463>there were people here actually defending this wankerlol
and i say this as someone basically unsympathetic to most nationalisations in the short-medium term. britain's massive institutional rot is anomalous even in capitalist terms and will be easier to tackle when the state isn't marking its own homework… you could make it work if you imagine a foreign country sending in millions of experts with a perfect understanding of british conditions, but that isn't going to happen… >>2581527at least we can live in abject poverty without those stupid transhumanists bothering us! thank you sir keir!
>>2581159
Absolutely based
After a weekend of despair i've decided your party is actually going to be cool we just need to struggle against Trots and such
>>2581856'The trots' are literally the ones who have secured collective leadership and everything good so far, but ok.
Can't purchase violent, sexy or scary games on Steam in the UK anymore despite being an adult in my 30s, all because of the damn internet safety law.
Why is our government like this??
>>2581856>After a weekend of despair i've decided your party is actually going to be cool we just need to struggle against Trots and suchbased. Thinking of joining but want to let it all pan out and for the factions to form first, to know what i'm getting into and who to align with, so to speak.
>>2581878for entirely self-interested reasons.
>>2581878Collective leadership will mean little in reality, it was already ruled by committee, that committee was always going to end up elected.
More or less everyone wanted more democracy in the party, you didn't invent member lead calm down, all you did was introduce a back door to the swp with the dual carding thing.
>>2581913nah mate if you're cool join now and start shouting loudly. There is a lot of whack stuff happening it needs to be challenge before it can procreate
>>2581915Okay, fair enough, i'll join in the week.
>>2581527Another trune L, time to rope I think xixters
>>2581145>ruling class tries to abolish juriesThey are afraid. A spectre is haunting Britain. The spectre of sortition.
>>2582118
> I hope the Greens whoop them.
hobbyist who has no desire for radical politics.
>>2582113
>>2582118
You underrate the importance of staking out a general vibes-based position. Reform got away with obviously-not-happening economic policies (and Farage's recent "oh yeah there won't be big tax cuts after all" speech is the final forewarning that they're an establishment party, not an anti-establishment party) because they stake out the right general direction for some of the people they're trying to appeal to.
If every other party is saying you can't nationalize anything, there are merits to saying "nationalize everything" over saying "um, maybe renationalize the railways… like labour have already claimed to do… uhh…. you know if it's not too much trouble, we used to have public water too… maybe… oh… the bond markets don't like that? nevermind then…", you help drag the overton window in a direction where "nationalize something" is a sensible compromise rather than deranged ultraleftist wilsonite deviationism.
The left will not be taken seriously by the press whether it goes for option #1 or option #2. 1, however, is much easier to defend so long as you don't really care that you're bullshitting or going for a headline-catching maximallist "in 100 years" type demand because you know what you're really holding out for in 2029 is making a referendum on parliamentary sortition your condition for entering into coalition with the greens. It gives you the hammer that magically turns things into nails.
yeah yeah she's just running her mouth and not thinking it through, but the actual president of the USA uses the same strategy. maybe it'll crash and burn, but at least it's crashing and burning in a new way compared to re-running 2019.
>>2582211This is kinda what I think about it.
Also the right has a broad smorgasboard of options to choose from for every indentation on the spectrum right from "hmmm dunno about those small boats, maybe unregistered people shouldn't be arriving in large numbers with no real processing mechanism" all the way to "send back everyone who can't trace their ancestry to william the conquerer, and then send them back as well, because he was french"
like that, they can energize different groups of people at different levels of radicalisation and get them engaged.
We've got our own centerists - the labourites, unfortunately, then you've got your well meaning normies with the right idea - the greens.
Now we've got the mass militant base - your party
and then the various sects provide the hardcore ideological debates that the rest don't engage with but are influenced by.
We've been missing that your party link between the normie base and the autists for a long time, which is why I am now entering bloomer era.
>>2582211Im exactly agreeing with this anon, we should be saying what we mean and fighting back against those who doubt we should nationalize everything.
Let the people who are against it show who they are, enough of the sidestepping around what we actually want.
>>2581913This is a pretty good post about the democratic socialists and I believe the author was one of the writers of their model constitution.
The problem is he's really idealistic about the Democratic Socialist faction and claiming they aren't going to fall into the same traps as other left sects, when they literally allied with the SWP before conference.
https://exmultitude.substack.com/p/towards-a-vanguard-without-vanguardism >>2582280Thing is, aside from a long off goal, it is clear from the history of socialism that "nationalise everything" while desirable, and in many cases, effective, is not always achievable.
Particularly in the UK economy which is 1 million financial advisors in a trenchcoat, buying 3 properties each, and the people that serve them Pret a Manger
we'd have to have some major industries to nationalise first, or it is literally just nationalise greggs and don't get me wrong, i believe in the national greggs service however it will not be the backbone of a modern socialist economy
>>2582290love it when a serious political crit starts
"As a teenager, convinced of my own superior taste in obscure punk and emo bands"
>>2582301Thing is we all get that 'Socialize everything' isnt just a button we're going to press, but the end goal of a several decades long project - but it is the end goal.
It was a hit piece by the lib pos zionist owen jones, nothing more.
>>2582301I'm not saying YP should do it, but it would be really funny for someone to draw up proposals for a socialized financial industry. Not on a traditionally left-wing model (prioritizing social investment goals over profits, etc.), but something more like Temasek in red paint. That is, a gigantic multinational finance conglomerate owned by the state, trying to make a profit for the state, completely at ease with the global financial system.
Including such fun policy dilemmas as: how do you nationalize these firms without obliterating the international confidence needed for them to succeed. How do you explain to the abstract concept of the market that you're
not trying to destroy it, you're trying to get socialism a piece of the pie…
>>2582308Corbyn/McDonnel had a fully worked out proposal for a state national investment back btw
>>2582211Basically what I've been thinking. The right can promise the world and its oyster, why can't we? Even generating conversation about nationalism besides this meek shit of infrastructure only, maybe, if the markets and the press sign off on it,.
>>2582294<Zarah bad le uppity wöman!Kindly go back to /pol/. Cheers.
Fdpd
>>2582301If there isn't industry, why can't we build it? China didn't have industry until they built it. Russia didn't have industry until they built it. Socialists in the UK are comparitively in a much better position since we already have all people with the technical know-how to make it work. We already have engineers and scientists. Restarting industry would literally be as easy as building the factories and then paying factory workers slightly more than service workers.
>>2582486>since we already have all people with the technical know-how to make it work. I seriously doubt that tbh. I'd assume those with (prob outdated) skills that were relevant for our old manufacturing output have either, or a combination of: died, reskilled, emigrated or retired.
Just assumng though, what do I know, am not a fancy man with a degree and all this.
it makes absolutely no sense why the buses and trains in this country arent nationalised. things dont feel very "efficient" as it is, so could it really get any worse?
>>2581538nationalising tesco and morrisons is still a silly idea
nationalisation only makes sense with an industrial policy, which i never see communists promote for whatever reason.
>>2582499offer those that emigrated more money to return that we can afford because we seized everything and taxed boomer hmo landlords 100%
Is Polanski a zionist plant meant to disrupt the growth of the biggest socialist party the UK has seen in decades?
Forget industry and indulge me: what does a socialist service economy look like?
Do not take this too seriously, but think it over. Starting from the assumptions of comparative advantage, and accepting that Britain does not have a comparative advantage in commodity manufacturing, how does one organize things then? There are some easy gains to be made in freeing up resources that are tied down by inefficient capitalist practices (for example: our tax system is woeful, so lots of smart people are employed as tax-dodging assistants), but you've still got to decide where to reallocate them.
The best starting points i've got are: culture/media, tourism, academia and research, and some design work which is then manufactured elsewhere. Perhaps, being a bit cheeky, with a bit of socialist consultancy work, where you can bring in some uninterested third parties from the Karl Marx Proletarian Group to read over your 5 year plan and tell you whether it's a goer.
>>2581944That amendment basically empowers the corrupt union bosses that are already part of the problem with Labour
As for the pic, the leadership obviously isn't happy with collective leadership so they hope that they will get another go at removing it in 2 years lol.
I live in a hyper-deprived SHITHOLE and yet the county council by-election here was a 2 horse race between Reform and Tories.
We truly live in a Hitlerian society.
>>2582660Do you think the UK is incapable of manufacturing things anymore? We don't need cheap commodities if we can build them ourselves. Competitive advantage doesn't matter because a socialist UK would be basically decoupled from world economics anyway. Or at least there would be no particular advantage to shipping everything in from China.
We could focus on our domestic needs and primarily just export culture and technology and that kind of thing.
>>2582669>As for the pic, the leadership obviously isn't happy with collective leadership so they hope that they will get another go at removing it in 2 years lol.do they have wiggle room before that? Seems like it's just going to roll up until they get their way then.
>>2582772Honestly, i've met some chinese who are absolute britaboos, i reckon we can just beg them up in return for letting them build things and give more of the poshfag universities to them for their children, just make oxford town chinese territory or something.
>>2582772for the purposes of the question the entire world economy is socialist, though still nationally divided.
the advantage in shipping things from China is that China is very good at making things. The nature of comparative advantage is that even if we could make things better than china, it may still make more sense for us to focus elsewhere if we're even better at something else.
(This is easier to understand in individual terms than national terms: Einstein may well have made a good patent clerk, but having a worse patent clerk frees him up to specialise in research…)
>>2582891What mechanism do you think makes China inherently 'better' at building things than the UK? I mean maybe right now that is the case but we could improve our capacities and it's not like Chinese people get a racial bonus to their production of cheap electronics or some shit.
>>2581944>What was the contention on this?Basically that it is going to replicate the Labour "Affiliation" model for trade unions; which produces a bunch of perverse incentives that doesn't help anyone except anti-militant union leaders and politicos who only care about unions as far as they can sponge money off them.
>>2582891>>2583002I also just think it's better for things to not be shipped halfway around the world without good reason. If all our appliances were made in the UK it would be much easier to send them in for repairs and so on. Besides it's hardly like 100% of people can work in the culture industry, there's probably about as many people in the UK who are 'best suited' to be factory workers as there is for any other country (per capita)
>>2583002more centralized planning, a more stable political system (no push/pull of two shitlib parties starting and cancelling large infrastructure projects, for example HS2) and most importantly low housing and medical costs, which means they can pay labor less money and get shit built more.
I like Jeremy Corbyn
>>2583121Seems like this is made by a man called simon glass, former BBC employee who made documentaries for BBC 3/ iplayer about sex, dating, celebrity life.
Now it looks like he's making a mockumentary about British ML parties? Bit of a weird choice of subject given the current climate and when you could just talk to the CPGB-ML in real life.
>>2583148Why let the cpgb-ml speak when you can speak for them?
>>2583002There need not be any mechanism, although the fact they're already doing it and already meeting a huge chunk of the world's needs is a factor.
If you and I are equally good at building chairs, it's nevertheless more efficient for me to specialise in making the various pieces (legs, seat, back, etc) and you to specialise in assembling them, or vice versa.
>>2583016Shipping is basically free and repairs are more of a design problem than a distance one.
In any case, we're getting side tracked from the question. For argument sake let's say a magic computer provides all the manufactured goods we could ever want: how, then, does one structure a socialist service economy?
They can just decide no one gets a trial by jury in Bongistan huh?
>>2583106Ok but we're talking about a socialist Britain here where these issues wouldn't be a problem. Lower currency value is irrelevant if we're not interested in global markets.
>>2583175Individual people aren't the same as countries though. It's more efficient to use mass production yes but it's also more efficient all else being equal to have the chair leg factory next to the chair assembly factory. It also is, I feel, socially beneficial and less alienating for some kid to be like "oh yeah my dad helped assemble your washing machine!"
As for your second question, surely people would just work at their local service place to serve others. Like if you love ice cream you can work at the ice cream stand. Or if you want less hours and more free time you can work a 'harder' and/or more unpleasant job like being a plumber. I'm not sure what question you're exactly asking.
>>2583148Sex, dating, celeb slop
Tbh a comedy targeting communists is actually pretty consistent for a guy producing petit-bourgeois interest television lmao
Presumably his next show will be “Help! hubby got me an Evoque but my friend has a Velar!”, whether that’s a comedy or a tragidrama, well that’s up to his creative mind
>>2583407
I remember everyone saying Chiha was going to become dominant in the snooker 20 years ago, maybe eventually, but still didn't happen yet though.
watched the new adam curtis series and I'm demoralised again
Some cryptobro gave £9 million in donations to Reform UK. That's more than all over UK political parties combined have received in the latter half of 2025.
>>2583438I found it perked me up, the opening was so blunt as to be hilarious and the way it played off his previous late USSR/early capitalist Russia documentary was fun and reassuring in a "well, at least this horrible machine is going to fall to bits" sort of way.
(If you haven't, you should watch the Russia one. /leftypol/ will tell you it's cringe anticommunism because he's glib with his subtitles, but it's good.)
>>2583397
Do you really think so? I think it's probably a lot more effort to get paid for being a magistrate than just going to work lol. And I doubt you've got very much decision-making power in the first place.
>>2583488I already watched the russia one. Every documentary from Curtis is totally nihilism educing. He's an expert in making the world look totally irredeemable. He's great at that.
>>2583500an issue with curtis though is that he appears to have no concept of history before the 20th century. he's enthralled in the status quo post-war malaise and sees it as a terminus.
>>2583732These videos just cherrypick the people who don't get the answers right and don't include how most of people get them right.
>>2583744true, but even in terms of absolute metrics its still shocking.
>>2583313
>Honestly the UK left could easily take over the lower rungs of the judiciary if they actually knew anything about how British institutions actually function.
Good idea
>>2583740>an issue with curtis though is that he appears to have no concept of history before the 20th centuryOther than perhaps extending this to 19th century for industrialisation, how important do you really think history before that is for influencing present day?
Isn't that one of Curtis's main messages? That our obsession with the past, or rather, a mythological past, is what's keeping us from coming up with new ideas?
Not a britbong, but I just hope you're all aware that any group, organization, or individual who participates in the Your Party fiasco is going to end up as utterly embarrassed and politically discredited as the people who participated in the DSA over here in the states. Hope you all steer clear of the mud
>>2584241>as the people who participated in the DSA over here in the states.Damn, Zohran must feel very embarrassed now getting elected mayor in one of the most important cities of the planet.
>>2584245Get back to me in a year or even just six months and tell me if you're still on board the Zohran train.
How many fucking times do the Dems have to roll out the "young, pretty, charming, social media-savvy left-wing progressive who's changing the system from the INSIDE" routine before you goldfish-brain nitwits realize it's a con and stop falling for it.
>>2584241Being as embarrassed and politically discredited as the DSA would be a major improvement from the level of embarrassing and politically discrediting that the 'left' in this country has been till now. We can only hope that we're able to achieve the level of respectability and political sophistication the american comrades are operating at in this miserable shithole.
>>2580322The SWP (U.S.) is different from the U.K. one and I don't think there's any relation. The American one kind of had a moment in the 60s but it's been a really Jehova's Witness-style sect of old Jewish ladies for awhile under a guy named Jack Barnes. The British SWP has been more of a thing on the left there for years, like they actually organize demos and shit, but
>>2580340 has more details.
>>2580401Beautiful. Like a praying mantis is beautiful, but still.
>>2580415That's interesting. Off the dome, my guess is that it's because the DSA in reality operates more like a loose confederation of local chapters rather than a single national organization. The role of the national organization is really overstated. NYC-DSA (which is the largest chapter) is practically its own organization and National DSA can't really tell them what to do.
Part of it might be that the U.S. is just so large, it makes it impossible to enforce such a thing, even if the National DSA wanted to. Also there's really nowhere else to go anyways so everybody piles into it. Because what the fuck else are you going to do? It's all very local. Like in my city, there's not that many socialists / communists anyways and everybody knows each other and more or less cooperates (except with the three old SWP members, again, the U.S. version, because they're crazy), although a Maoist group broke up recently in some infighting. They were nice though. Like maybe you get some anarchist wreckers who form a sort of local sect. But there's some DSA thing happening in Florida, that's happening in Florida and has little if any relevance on what a DSA group in Colorado is doing.
>>2584241I STG a lot of you yanks on this site dont want a better world, all you people are interested in is a counter-cultural identity that is still subversive in your country.
>>2584340Your SWP sounds like our 'spartacists'. Some crazy old ladies.
>>2584340>The British SWP has been more of a thing on the left there for years, like they actually organize demos and shitThey organise the most pathetic demos possible that consist of walking around town centres yelling slogans and holding up placards that do nothing to build class consciousness.
They also actively hijack movements with better praxis and then lie to them.
Good article on this:
https://livesrunning.wordpress.com/2025/08/21/working-with-stand-up-to-racism-the-good-the-bad-the-deeply-annoying/
>The SutR people in the room all insisted on speaking (at what was billed as a short meeting with an absolute time limit of 1 hour). Their speeches copied one another. They made boring, generalised, interventions of no relevance to our immediate situation. Yes, racism and fascism are bad: the people in the room didn’t need to be told it, that’s why they were in the room.
>What we got on the Saturday though was an SutR presence which took the form of familiar, routine, chants. They took control of the PA, refused to allow one of the agreed musicians (Orchestrated Discontent) to perform. They accepted some speakers from the agreed set list, imposed others which no one had agreed and who’d played no part in the campaign but belonged to the SWP’s lost of its long-term allies (eg the People’s Assembly). A number of SWP/Sutr stewards wouldn’t take direction from the non-SWP chief steward, but stood passively at the front of the march doing nothing as the police brought out their batons
>The other Islington activists saw with frustration that the protest had become exactly what our meeting had argued against, a left mobilisation done on muscle memory, led by people from outside the borough, shouting “fascist scum” over and over again at a right-wing protest in which there were, as far as the rest of us could tell, no actual fascists, certainly none anywhere near the leadership of that protest.
>At multiple points, two Stand up to Racism and SWP leaders (Paul Holborow and Weyman Bennett) lied to other people in the coalition.
>Bennett promised he hadn’t been asked and wouldn’t speak to the cops. Bennett wrote to activists, “I’ve not had contact re police.” I’ve got the screenshot in case any friends need to see it.
>But when negotiators finally spoke to the police, two days later, they reported back on the three conversations Bennett had already had with them – the times he’d spoken to them, and what he’d said. The gist of which was that our numbers would be fewer than they were (“no more than 500”) , we wouldn’t get in the police’s way and we’d be happy to leave as early as the copes wanted. He’d signed up already to a vision of a protest in which everyone on the left would shelter in pens. NHS is falling apart. Anecdotally I've spent 2 months trying to get hold of my meds, made about 10 phone calls, and had my appointments cancelled 3 times.
How do we fix it?
>>2584429option 1: give it more money. the UK spends a relatively low amount per head on healthcare compared to other first world countries (it's italy/spain tier rather than germany tier, important to remember whenever some dickhead says "why don't we copy germany's system?")
option 2: give it more money and reform NHS England to be organized more like NHS Scotland. NHS England had a lot of basically pointless reform under Blair and Cameron while NHS Scotland didn't. By most measures NHS Scotland is as good or equal to NHS England. (That's why, when proving otherwise, people cheat and compare population health rather than the NHS itself. Scots are less healthy for a variety of reasons, but the NHS treats them just as well.)
option 3: more stupid Blair style reform that sucks up time and money and doesn't do anything but does let the government indulge its fetish for cosplaying blairism
option 4: abandon the basic principles of the NHS and introduce some kind of pay-to-play insurance system for middle and upper income groups which will no doubt have an arbitrary cutoff area where you're suddenly a lot poorer for no real reason, and probably some nonsense like the unemployed not getting any insurance unless they're on benefits, only because this is britain there remains chronic underinvestment and the government won't let you import 15 million doctors and nurses so costs skyrocket while waiting times remain basically the same
option 5: as above but somehow overcome britain's institutional dynamics so that costs go up but service quality also goes up because market dynamics operate the way they would elsewhere. it's ugly and it gets rid of the last remaining possible reason to have any pride - or indeed belief - in a nation called 'britain', but the upside is that if it works you might actually get healthcare from the healthcare system.
option 6: (sneaky, evil) move existing funding around so that emphasis is put on giving healthcare to working age people without pointless waiting and gatekeeping while creating bureaucratic nightmares that leave people above the average life expectancy unlikely to receive treatment, since costs basically increase with age.
option (191)7: as comrade sultana says, nationalize the entire economy. communism salves all ills.
>>2584429Bern thinking tbis today too. How do we begin to generate analysis and a program for wide scale NHS reform?
Are there convos about this going on in YP?
>>2584422Yea. Every city has similar horror stories with the SWP. I remember once they asked the local antifa anarchists to protect their meeting but then phoned the fucking police when the fucking fash turned up.
>>2584408>Your SWP sounds like our 'spartacists'. Some crazy old ladies.Yeah I've run into the Sparts once, and I'm sure they're linked to the U.K. ones because that's how they roll. A Trot friend of mine who was in a Cliffite org (ISO, which iirc was fraternal with the U.K. SWP, later dissolved into the DSA) said they got violent outside their annual conference. The SWP here is an odd group, they're very pro-Cuba but also pro-Israel. I swear they don't have a member under the age of 60. I've only seen them turn up with their card table selling books and their newspaper at labor events but nobody else on the left wants anything to do with them.
But yeah, the ISO would've been the closest equivalent of the U.K. SWP until it dissolved. It was "big" on college campuses in the 2000s. It was like the main student socialist org back then.
>>2584422>They organise the most pathetic demos possible that consist of walking around town centres yelling slogans and holding up placards that do nothing to build class consciousness.That does sound like the old ISO.
>>2580598>Oh dear Lorrrd, imagine explaining to our American comrade the hilarity of the AWL et al.Oh yeah. I'm not sure we have an equivalent of them. Probably "Solidarity" and the journal "New Politics."
>Even Communist Party writers now accept that the ice-pick wielded by Stalin’s agent Ramon Mercador stopped Trotsky’s brain from functioning, but opinions differ on the reasons for the malfunctioning of his followers’ brains.
kek
>>2583732>you should have to complete an exam to be able to vote.>voteLib
>>2583488>was fun and reassuring in a "well, at least this horrible machine is going to fall to bits" sort of way.Really? Because TraumaZone implies the USSR was dissolved by people who wanted to do away with Communism for entirely selfish reasons, 90s Russia and Thatcherite Britain are both the desired “horrible machine” and our current system isn’t going to “fall to bits” because unlike the Soviet Union of the 1980s, the people in charge of Britain today are pleased as punch with how the machine works and will maintain it, tune it and run it thusly
Tbh it’s such a cliche now to relate the dysfunction of the late Soviet Union to “late stage” capitalism as though we can sit nice and pretty while waiting for capitalism to collapse as communism in Europe did.
But the resurgent bourgeoisie of the Warsaw Pact countries intentionally mismanaged Communism into dysfunction with breadlines to justify a return to Capitalism where stuff like breadlines are no longer considered dysfunctional but just movements of the market. The only difference being the narrative that *you* as an individual may rise above the breadlines to be the one selling the bread.
The “dysfunction” of “late stage” capitalism is nothing of the sort and therefore will never result in the collapse of the state in the way the USSR did.
>>2584459The people in charge aren't really happy. They don't want to give up their privileges, which is what fixing anything would demand, but they aren't happy. They want radical change and they want someone else to suffer for it.
Starmer got in because the people who run the country had two hopeless hopes: 1. That Starmer had a secret plan to fix things (he didn't, which is perhaps his most contemptible trait.), or 2. That Starmer, an experienced civil service, could control the machine better than the buffoonish Conservatives. In these hopes, they did everything they could to weigh the dice in his favour and the best they could turn out was a lower vote than in 2019, when they'd been doing all they could to stop Labour. They know how to destroy but not how to build. They'll probably put Reform in next, but Reform seem more like the last dying gasp of the whole delusion than the people who're likely to actually tear the lot apart. (Though in their blundering I suppose they could Yeltsin it.)
The odd thing about post-Thatcher Britain is that it's more like the late-
USSR than anything else, despite the 90s-Russia seeming blundered privatizations.
I mean look at the gas, electricity or water markets. They're exactly the kind of demented scheme Gorbachev would've overseen: stupider than mediocre central planning, shittier than mediocre free markets. A sort of cosplay economy for people who can't run real private companies, invariably dependent on state subsidy to bail them out of their own messes and state price-fixing to stop them doing something asinine. An excuse for would-be lower-upper-ranking civil servants to enrich themselves pretending to be businessmen. Railways were (and in part still are) the same, but are now being belatedly re-centralized.
What comes next will probably be worse, of course. But different. They can't drag 2008 on until the 2050s…
but of course, in 2017 i'd have said they can't drag it on until 2025… >>2584547She got raided again? Madnesss
>>2584547She retweted an image comparing Dresden to Gaza lmao. Nationalism is the fascists turf. No ammount of communist tailism will change that.
Bet Churchill wished he could have bombed Baku. Oh he was so fucking close, and all.
>>2583959you cant an historian if you think we live in a post-historical world. curtis is a victim of the spectacle.
>>2584673Curtis is only half-submerged in the spectacle. He argues against the spectacle whilst believing that all aspects of the modern fearful reactionary world has to do with our "fear" of the past. Which is itself a nostalgia fuelled spectacle.
>>2584682he just appears too idealist to me. even the end of "cant get you out of my head" was an obtuse plea for radical "imagination", as if we are ensnared in a system of ideas rather than structural violence based on wage labour. he is a fan of mark fisher, so what can you do?
>>2584794That's as far as the British Media lets you go, by no means do I think Curtis or Fisher are intentionally holding back a true opinion, but they wouldn't let anyone who has a solution be published in Waterstones or given a spot on the BBC.
A housing estate and 200+ homes in Derby have been evacuated for over 24 hours with bomb disposal squad still on the scene.
Police aren't being very open about it all yet but seems 2 Polish neo-nazi white nationalists living in the area had made a bunch homemade bombs and had planted some at a Pakistani cultural centre.
Since those explosives were detonated by bomb squad yesterday, I don't know why bomb squad are still here? Unless they're searching their property or checking other areas for more explosives?
Furthermore, afaik this hasn't even made national news yet? Like how normalised is this crap that nobody even cares anymore?
I'm just so tired of living in interesting times. I don't want a society where this is normal.
>>2584429Sometimes I hear stories from the NHS, and particularly the way doctors treat people, look down on people, don't believe them, gaslight them, and its kinda got nothing to do with funding because it would be cheaper to listen to them the first time rather than do follow up appointments where you are subsequently told the last guy misdiagnosed you, and sometimes, along with many other things I get this thought that it is actually cultural.
Not in a racist way nonononono but actually british people are among the most class concious people in the world, in a bad way, we are so status driven and oritentated, take such great joy in looking down on people and shitting on people are just cunts, that doctors being cunty is a product of the fact everyone is a cunt here
>>2585128in my dark phase of thinking anyways
>>2585128>the way doctors treat people, look down on people, don't believe them, gaslight themthats just a common problem with doctors (at least on the other side of the channel its a common criticism as well). They're well educated, high status, paid well enough, which is normal because they do deal with people health and life threatening situations, but it also obviously go to their head a bit. They're also very hierarchical and used to being obeyed (often by women), and used to being the sole responsible of the medical decision, and have petty bourgeois mentality (being their own boss). All of which tend to not punish bad behavior
And their material incentives is to do quick diags without paying too much attention to details, statistically its the most efficient use of their time (people misdiagnosed will come back and pay again anyway), even if of course, from the pov of the patient, its awful and can lead to real damage
>>2580153The SWP is a detail, the bigger question is really: Why is factionalism such a danger for party democracy? And the answer is that the combo
winner-takes all elections + delegates voting for delegates makes it very easy for a tiny and well-organized minority to completely dominate everything.
>>2580070>>mix of delegates and lottery winners>is actually good. When it was all lottery winners, that was dumb, but this serves to blunt the power of delegates and mitigate chicanery and fuckery to some extent by halving their overall power- but you still get that function where people back somebody who is good at communicating and arguing for things. Its actually kind of goodYeah makes sense.
>>2585128>>2585262Playing devils advocate perhaps, but isn't it possible that people generally only go to the doctor when they're either in pain or fear for their health or both and are upset because a professional who sees people believing themselves to be on the verge of death all day every day, aren't showing the same level of concern as they themselves are?
>>2585128While you're not wrong, a small part of this
is funding. Britain loves to be penny wise and pound foolish: it may be trivial to treat you now, but that would mean spending a few pounds when it's not necessary. Once you're at death's door, however, then you can be taken seriously.
>>2585262Never forget the doctors opposed the NHS. Even today they are not properly integrated under the state as they should be.
>>2585276Even if you have to provide care to people every day there's no excuse for being callous. At least nurses can genuinely complain of a horrible workload, what is the excuse of (non junior) doctors?
>>2584842>but they wouldn't let anyone who has a solution be published in Waterstones or given a spot on the BBC.Who do you think has the solution but is not allowed to publish in Waterstones or speak on the BBC?
british historian david starkey has suggested a motion of "the great repealment", where as opposed to statutory revision, common law would take the place of endless legal entanglement. this is not intended to be an absolute gesture, but rather a counter-revolution to the contemporary constitution of the UK (e.g. the human rights act, 1997). other figures on the right such as peter hitchens also often points to lawfare as the scene of political struggle (e.g. the chartists), stating that blairism has concluded britain's "abolition" (beginning in 1914). particular to his discontent is the EA2010, which has also become problematic to the radical left, since it has effectively overturned the GRA2004.
if we are to erase such parliamentary history, then we may for example, re-implement oliver cromwell's commonwealth acts (1653-9), which made britain into a republic ("the protectorate"), abolishing both the monarchy and house of lords. what is interesting in the legal and political disputes of the UK however is that edward coke's "petition of rights" (1628) is not an appeal to a new law, but an old law, the magna carta (1215/97), which sought to protect the "ancient liberties" of the land, including habeas corpus, or protection from false imprisonment. the ancient liberties themselves are alluded to by william the conquerer in his "william writ" (1067), belonging to the city of london. so then, we are always looking back when we are going forward, which adds to starkey's own rhetorical legitimacy.
starkey has in particular looked at henry viii as an example of success, seeing that what works is a loyal parliament in conjunction with a king who is respectful, owing to the original purpose of a parliament or "council", as partners in decision-making, and not competitors. this is a fantasy however, since the magna carta established an original edict for a council, but only by the means of pressure from the barons - so then, power was only shared at the behest of a competition, which eventually led to war. the result of the english civil war is more appropriate, since if legitimacy belongs to a people, who find representation in commoners, then parliament has succeeded the king in their right to rule. a composite we may call a "tyranny" or dictatorship, which in classical thought maintained political representation for the people of a territory.
some compare a prime minister to a dictator, since in them is the absolute power of government, by the sovereignty of legislation. it was once said that in parliament anything was possible, except making a man into a woman - now even this threshold has been crossed. the fetish for executiveship in royalty appears perfectly sufficient in the prime minister, along with a democratic pretense, and the procedure of power, rather than spontaneity. the conflict of starkey's position then is in seeking a return of ancient liberty, or legitimate nobility, but this cannot be found in the 'norman yoke' of the aristocracy. hitchens approaches this more appropriately by stating that he is a monarchist but not a royalist. we return to the benevolent dictator, not as superman, but as an arch loyalist to his people; a real and good tyrant; a "lord protector" of the realm, perhaps?
whats old can be new again. abolish the united kingdom and establish the british protectorate.
Sick to the bastard death of this media enforced cult of faux-Britishness. And it is always the most intense around Christmas.
It's all so london-centric, upper middle class, petit bourgeois. Stuff made by people who shop at Waitrose for those who also shop there.
They love the monarchy, love anything with Alexander Armstrong, vote Lib Dem or Tory, and are ardent worshippers at the cult of Paddington Bear.
I swear if I every get a grain of power I'm eradicating all memory of that fucking Bear that they're all so utterly obsessed with.
>>2585928what should a british christmas look like, exactly?
>>2585937Devout prayer in the church
>>2585937There is no one way it should look. Which is why is detest that it's always presented in that very curated way.
Victorian London, Paddington Bear, the Royal Family, some stop motion short film about a bourgeois family's child/ a talking animal encountering some minor difficulty.
>>2585937lots of weed and curry
FUCK OSWALD MOSELY for giving the government a reason to ban political uniforms…
>>2585884I'm not to know that, am I?
owen jones status?
>>2586023political uniforms are gay
they only stop being gay when the revolution enables you to put on a a full red-leather budenovka outfit on horseback with a sabre
Abolishing Christmas. Renaming it "crimbo".
>>2586736
The solution is for doctors to just hand over those diagnoses faster rather than getting pissy at people for asking. Having a GP gatekeep them is retarded anyway. (The GP has about as much - perhaps less - specialist knowledge of these things as you do and relies entirely on giving you 20-questions always/sometimes/rarely/never homework)
Particularly for personality disorders, DID, and autism where there are no real subsequent costs to the NHS because they don't require medication. though even for ADHD, the ultimate solution is to just make the medication available all-but-over-the-counter. perhaps even OTC.
Using GPs to ration treatment, particularly cheap treatment (and free diagnoses!) is the worst part of the NHS by far.
>>2586777
You're such a liar bro. There's no evidence of ritalin etc reducing life expectancy, I'm not gonna bother looking up anything else you said. Go try get a job as a Labour staffer, Wes Streeting would love you.
>>2586575why is being "gay" a bad thing? 🤔
>>2586738are you from liverpool?
thats what some scousers call it.
>>2586796Gay in the gay way. Not gay in the kissing boys mwah mwah cute boys way.
>>2586796everyone calls it crimbo
>>2586031It seems like an imperious phrase to use against Curtis and Fisher.
I'm not familiar with Fisher, but I agree Curtis doesn't offer a solution except the Left did a new narrative to present to people (with no suggestion of what this narrative should).
That's a limitation of Curtis. But it seems a limitation of anyone - I've not heard of the trv solution. Even if I were to look outside of BBC and Waterstones, I don't think anything definitive jumps out.
Perhaps BBC and Waterstones wouldn't publish the 'solution' (though if there's money to be made in the promotion, when has Capital failed to capitalise on it) but if there isn't actually a solution to publish then its a redundant critique.
Went to Waterstones. They did NOT have Lenins State & Revolution millions of Waterstones shops must burn.
>>2586810
thats right old man
>>2586818the british uniform is a suit.
>>2586848its obviously a mixture of both
>>2586849well it says 'mainly'
>>2586848anyway nvm they're cringe. sad how people can be sheepdogged into war so easily
>>2586777
The DWP have their own disability assessors (who're generally speaking, stricter than the NHS), needing a sick note from your GP is just a time-wasting exercise. I may give a fuller reply later, but this is an essential point to make. The NHS don't in any meaningful way serve to stop PIP and the welfare system coming crashing down. The DWP want a sick note, sure, but a diagnosis counts for very little.
Cluster B people are going to be cluster B people whether or not you label them as such.
>I mean lets take your one to the end, why not just legally allow self diagnosis then? Why even have GPs at all?
This is, in fact, my line on a lot of it. People can make their own risk/reward trade offs (perhaps subject to some kind of trivial test of competence to filter complete reprobates) because there are a good chunk of conditions where although you really should be competently medically assessed, what actually happens is that the NHS sticks you on a long waiting list, then makes a cursory check that it won't immediately kill you for liability reasons, then sends you on your way - and in those cases you're getting the same result with the added harm of a pointless wait.
p.s. Freddie The Bore
He's not actually that bad, I read him occasionally, but it's a bit sad that he's fallen into the "left-but-hates-the-left" niche. He's said a few times - iirc - that it's basically against his will, but he's still clearly partially audience captured. The internet is harsh like that.
oliver cromwell established the first written constitution of england, the "instrument of government" (1653), wherein he establishes himself as "lord protector" of the british commonwealth, as a substitution for the royal executive. he states that a council of peers between 13-21 members shall advise him, and that he will have privileges to pardon people for crimes (barring murder and treason). parliament would summarily resume, with minor regulations setting the maximum number of MPs to 400 for the english parliament, and 30 for the scottish and irish (as far as i know, parliamentary expansion only saw a landmark case by means of "the great reform act" of 1832, where representatives of government were expanded with a greater number of voters). in my own time, i have preferred the idea of a smaller house of commons.
cromwell also says that all those who acted either (i) in favour of the irish rebellion or (ii) against the parliamentarians during the civil war, shall be disabled from gaining election in parliament, which he now describes as being triennial (occuring every 3 years, as opposed to our current 5-year system). clause XVII is particular amusing, where he writes that only those who are known to possess integrity, piety and "good conversation", shall be elected, so long as they are 21 or above. i may also be interpreting this incorrectly, but it appears that in clause XVIII, cromwell says that only those whose property is worth at least £200 (£40,000 today) may be eligible to either appoint or elect MPs - this appears to bear relation to the USA's own policy in 1776, where voting rights were granted to male property owners of the protestant faith. this is not different from a classical democracy of course, where a member of the "demos" (citizenry) was registered by his status as a property owner. i have suggested the efficacy of this conception, but in relation to universal property (aristotle suggests something similar, but only within a framework of slavery - equally american). relating to the great reform act, a movement called the "chartists" petitioned for a "people's charter" from 1832-48, which would expand the franchise to workers, but not women - this is only fulfilled later with the feminist movement, which began as something bourgeois, with the first female member of parliament, nancy astor (1919), being an aristocrat elected by the tories. so then, parliament has always been the scene of political and class warfare (with marx himself stating that britain can even allow itself a peaceful and legal revolution).
clause XXIV is interesting, since cromwell appears to say that though the executive power of the lord protector may disagree with bills passed by parliament, they shall become laws nonetheless. thus, cromwell retains ultimate sovereignty in legislation. clause XXVII says that the minimum budget for the treasury should be £200k (£40 million). clause XXXI states that all former royal property will become the personal possession of the lord protector and his successors, the revenue of which is also his own possession. clause XXXII states that the position of lord protector shall be democratically decided by the council (of 13-21), who will elect him, so long as this heir is not of royal lineage. clause XXXIII states that within the current judgement, cromwell shall be lord protector. the final clauses (XLI and XLII) states that the council and lord protector shall take a solemn oath toward the nation.
>>>2586736
MY doctors is always full of oldes there to talk to somebody because they're lonely and have little else.
>>2586752>though even for ADHD, the ultimate solution is to just make the medication available all-but-over-the-counter. perhaps even OTC.Just because current system is dysfunctional doesn't make handing out amphetamines like the Yanks a good idea..
>>2586943the green party line is to legalise all drugs - the same twaddle promoted by russell brand back in the day. theres a part of the left that sees privatisation as the only way to mend social ills; capitalist realism.
>>2586946Legalisation is not necessarily related to what we're taking about, at all.
>>2586950the option promoted is that GPs are evil middle-men stopping you from getting drugs, so you should be able to buy them from distributors. the same thing is said sbout HRT, where a black market of drugs is promoted by the left as a solution to bureaucracy. i see an absolute continuity in the green party platform.
>>2586954Okay then. Have fun with that.
neema parvini made a video on contrapoints, showing the failure of the left to counter the discursive fascism of "debate", which undermines liberal norms and values by "vice signalling". the dynamic here is what steven pinker refers to as "common knowledge", or what i would say is the implicit or connotative semiotics which bind society together (such as custom, manners, etc.) contrapoints is obviously correct that beginning to engage in "debate" with fascists leads to a sinister dialectic, acting as a rhetorical prison for the victim. parvini plays the fool in his commentary, stating that merely appealing to authority is "not an argument", which may be true in itself, but its also the right of people on the left to disengage from the right-wing format. zizek has discussed this before, that one cannot accept the terms of debate for a fascist, since it confuses form and content. as zizek has said elsewhere (such as in his recent pussy riot interview, he says that "truth" is not a matter of fact. truth is not objective, but subjective). to give charity to this philosophically is to see how german idealism posits subjectivity as the form by which objects appear - thus, it is the subject which creates the content. so then, it isnt wise to debate fascists in any case. no argument is necessary.
I'm not watching that
>>2586979have fun with what?
its a canonical aspect of the british left to deregulate medicine and cosmetics to allow for personal freedom. adam curtis included the example of a british transsexual who traveled to thailand to get a procedure in one of his documentaries. there was a recent scandal about children with gender incongruity being experimented on by medical services in this country, with organisations like mermaids being fundraised by various aspects of the left, undercutting NHS ethics.
>>2586736>>2586777Again, you're just indistinguishable from a right-winger. Like this is tory shit, putting the blame on the patients rather than the underfunding.
>>2586818'British' culture is entirely made up by upper class imperialist tory nonces as a phony nationalism to spread false-consciousness and as way to culturally solidify the imperial dominion over the oppressed nations on the British isles. I couldn't be happier to be un-british.
>>2586984>have fun with what?I don't know what you're on about tbh mate, I just don't think we should be handing out strong, danelgerpid and life altering medications without even a doctors sign off. I think you lot only reallyeant rhis becausein your capitalist warped minds itll make prodictiviry go up and peoductivity go up = good.
>>2586943The question is not necessarily what's a good idea, but what's a less bad idea.
>>2586954GPs are
expensive middle men wasting their valuable time (which could be used on healing people who've got problems they can actually help with!) liaising between you and the people who're actually there to stop you getting drugs, usually in the form of sticking you on a waiting list.
HRT isn't a black market, it's a grey market, and even then little serious harm would flow from making it a regular market. At least in the case of HRT the stupid gatekeeping system will give you a blood test before prescribing (wow, I bet boots could never…), when it comes to ADHD meds they don't even do that - you are stuck on a waiting list and given assessments any determined individual will cheat, at great time and expense, for what? so that a professional can, if you're lucky, read you the same list of warnings they put on the leaflet that comes with the pills anyway? Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
You can seriously hurt yourself gobbling paracetamol, should we perhaps require a GP appointment every time you've got a headache?
>>2586984NHS "ethics" are no such thing. The NHS's primary concern is avoiding getting sued. Healing people with critical care needs ("hit by car" tier) next, then, if there's any time left, people with stuff that's easy and routine to deal with.
If you wouldn't reify the DVLA, don't reify the NHS.
>>2587011right, so you would prefer a privatisation of pharmacies which would allow them to decide their distributors, rather than the medium of prescriptions from a GP.
>>2587009Ritalin is less dangerous than paracetamol which you can freely buy (other than a limit of two boxes only at once) for 30p
>>2587013The NHS giving prescriptions as now while pharmacies are free to sell things patients want but the NHS doesn't want to provide would be the trivial policy implementation.
>>2587022Paracetamol isn't extremely addictive, amphetamines are.
>>2587027So are smokes and vapes, so taxes, warning labels, no showing them at the counter… You're still up on the status quo and you don't even have to deal with second hand smoke.
>>2587027we cant help but deal in a cultural double-standard. we promote alcohol but prohibit cannabis; thats just the way it is.
>>2587052We can at least criticise these established norms and not have a Telegraph columnist in our brain ranting about 'loony lefties' like this poster evidently does
>>2586777 >>2587074well, he is our resident village fool
throw tomatoes at him whenever you like
the introduction of the metropolitan police force by robert peel in 1829 was a response to rising crime in london. it replaced previously unorganised men by a professional and centralised police force. along with the parliamentary act was also an essay on the "principles of law enforcement" (1829), which laid out the "instructions" of police officers to the public. the first principle given is that the purpose of policing is not the punishment of criminals, but the prevention of crime itself. in the further principles, peel states that the police may only act with co-operation with public respect, and that this respect declines in proportion to force used by the police. peel wanted "policing by consent", by the decision of communitoes. of course, the respect of the citizen from a policing body has always been part of english tradition, from the time of the magna carta (1215) stating the right of habeas corpus (protection from false imprisonment). peel gave further reforms in the justice system with his gaols act (1823) which focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment, something consistent in his ethos, such as the ninth and final principle of law enforcement; that the perfection of policing is the absence of crime, not the appearance of the punishing of crime.
of course, what became of the police was a gang of intimidating thugs, alienated from communities, more concerned on imprisoning people than helping them. an american conservative, samuel francis, describes this predicament perfectly in his often cited article, "anarcho-tyranny" (1994). his central claim is that the purpose of the police is like any other business; to create customers. he looks at cases of legal entrapment to see how the police will commit crimes to stop "criminals". the notion of an "undercover cop" has become part of a prevailing modern narrative all the same. the point in stating this is that where there is no crime, there is a lacking demand for police, and so the purpose of policing is to create crime rather than prevent it. part of the idea of "anarcho-tyranny" is also the imprisonment of people for minor offences while those guilty of serious offences are thought of leniently. the murderer is given a softer sentence by reforms, while the dissident is humiliated by maximum penalties. its not that the law ceases to exist, but that it inverts. as edward snowden once said, "When exposing a crime is treated as committing a crime, you are being ruled by criminals." something similar is said by maximilien robespierre (1792):
<Regretfully I speak this fatal truth, [the king] must die because the nation must live.https://revolution.chnm.org/items/show/526thus, revolutionary terror becomes the correction of law, rather than its suspension. and to exist in an inverted law is to be oneself a criminal, whilst being guilty of a false law is to be virtuous. this is not new, but is rather central to our very cultural mythology, where Christ was a criminal, tried to death - as yet, vindicated by his followers as embodying justice. so then there is a paradox - the police do their job when there is no crime, yet the police can only exist where there is crime, and eventually, the law itself becomes crime.
anglo-saxon militias ("fyrd") resembled the german "hundreds", as citizen "armies", tasked at rooting out lawbreaking, and also the mercenary protection of estates. it was considered part of common law tradition that an able-bodied men may at any time be called to be part of a fyrd. militias were maintained into the norman era, with early modern representation by parishes in the 17th century, which would survey local populations for men and weapons. there was an elementary form of training and regimentation, but it remained unprofessional. overtime (e.g. after the acts of union, 1707), the militia was incorporated into the army reserves, where it has remained ever since. the militia plays a role in american history too of course, with it being stipulated in the second ammendment of america's constitution (1789-91). the american militia also became part of the army reserves, especially with "the national guard", after the militia act of 1903. the militia is not to be confused with national service (1949-63), which is a concept even present in ancient greek culture, as we might read in plato's politeia (375 BC), where he considers military training as part of general education; something shallowly continued in "physical education" made compulsory in schools (1988).
not a brit
can someone please summarise what happened to YOUR PARTY (corbyn-sultana) since the official founding of the party a few months ago?
>>2586980fuck honkypointSS
>>2587339>>2587339Tl;Dr- stuff happened. Nothing really happened.
>>2587339Hard to answer simply but basically, internal power struggle over who has access to money/data with Sultana and co being sidelined by the Corbyn team. Both sides tried to sue/report each other, idk if those efforts are still ongoing. Then there was the conference last weekend which was an undemocratic stitch-up where Sultana basically postured against the leadership. Seems like the CEC elections will probably decide which one of them leaves the party in the end.
>>2587412From an outside perspective, I don't understand how any serious person can have even the barest traces of faith in a party that has Corbyn and Sultana as its two figureheads. I understand the left is in a rough state right now and people are reaching out for hope wherever they can find it, but it doesn't take a Nostradamus to predict that this thing is going to crash and burn.
>>2587597The point is that this party has managed to capture the attention of a large amount of people, obviously the politics are highly flawed and struggle is needed but I don't see how we can just give up on it at this point.
>>2587597Come to think of it actually, probably the closest and most recent American parallel was the "People's Party" of 2017:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_(United_States,_2017)Read this and see the dark future that awaits you, my British comrades.
>>2587604I sincerely wish you good luck but this reeks of middle class silliness to me. I just don't see this clown show turning into a serious political vehicle of any sort, but I'd be very happy if I'm proven wrong.
>>2587593Down with Conrad, uphold the Tina line
.>>2587608
"Middle class silliness", what does that even mean? As if it's relatable working class to only work in some ideologically pure sect of 5 members?
>>2587612>"Middle class silliness", what does that even mean? As if it's relatable working class to only work in some ideologically pure sect of 5 members?No, as in it's dominated by middle class careerists and intellectuals with no visible authentic working class base. I don't understand the obsession with "popularity" for its own sake. Plenty of "popular" things are bad. I would unironically take 5 serious socialists over that type of organization because the 5 serious socialists might conceivably end up joining or starting something good.
>>2587608>I sincerely wish you good luck but this reeks of middle class silliness to meSir. This is the party of Barbara and Tahira, not Beatrice and Tabitha.
>>2587621I unfortunately don't know who those people are, I'm not a Brit. Just a helpless American who sees my British friends apparently making similar mistakes that have been made over here.
>>2587619Anon, we want to be part of a movement that might conceivably actually achieve something.
>>2587640I understand. I do too. But it's a bad idea to let that practical desire wrap you up in trainwrecks like this.
>>2586980>contra points >steven pinker>zizek >pseud philosophy babble hahahaha
and again
ahahahahahahaaha
>>2587663And you might accuse me of being a sectarian or an ultra or whatever but this comes from a place of genuine bitterness for me. I was excited about Sanders when he ran in 2016. I was excited when the DSA started exploding in popularity. I felt like socialism becoming "popular" could only be a good thing and I was excited about the future. Then Sanders, AOC, the "Squad", etc. all showed their true colors before long and I realized I was duped. I don't want other well-meaning people to get duped.
>>2586736
>Every time I have to go to the GP, I always see people trying to make like 50 appointments for all these ailements they are making up on the spot for god knows what reason. I ALWAYS get fucking stuck behind these cunts in line as well where they stand there literally for 40+minutes trying to come up with new things to bullshit to the nurse about to get new appointments.
this literally isn't how you book an appointment with the NHS at a local GP. This simply did not happen. Nice ghost story though bro v spooky i am afraid
>If you read GP/Medical subreddits,
i don't, because i don't read reddit, because you can't trust reddit, because "the most reddit addicted city in the world" is Eglin Airforce base Florida, where they research and release papers on social media manipulation
>Something like 40% of people at oxbridge and stanford and Ivy league colleges etc these days are reporting they are severely "disabled" lmao.
did you also read this on reddit or do you have actual info to back it up?
>Same with GPs. This is why finding a good GP you jive with is so important. Basically I have 3 which I will genuinely wait months to get an appointment with.
sounds like you go to the doctor a lot anon, are you sure you're not ahypocondriac bullshit artist zoomer? I'm questioning if you are really ill maybe just have some over the counter medicine and book again if it gets worse?
>>2586777>>2586881we got boomer tory health takes versus total commie-lolbert multiple personality disorder free at the point of self diagnosis drugs for anyone who wants them
I can't decide which is more absolutely fucking ridiculous.
>>2587697im a member of your party and not team corbyn and shes fucking cringe.
allying with the trots is cringe.
going on question time and whining about "pay their fair share" is cringe.
>>2587697What has Zarah done?
>>2587698Communism is about freedom anon. Legalisation is communist.
So now on youtube you an just upload yourself gaybashing / assaulting leftists and screaming dirty islamists at people while threatening assault.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA1Vzua4_ysYou cunts are probably ok with this as well. Truly a hellhole country.
>>2587619most of the 'middle class' are working class in marxist terms. engage with modern conditions.
>>2587723Wtf the local crackeads and repros are having YT channels now? Mad fucking world.
>>2587737Income is not a trivial factor. Once you reach a certain level of affluence and stability you have a material vested interest in not rocking the boat too much. Even Marx and Engels acknowledged that more well-off workers tended to be more conservative and anti-revolutionary in their outlook, and they were speaking of workers FAR less privileged than the upper middle class today.
>>2587698My position is more ridiculous in that it's uncommon, but more sensible in that it's a cost-benefit analysis more than anything else. one that invites you to see the status quo as extremist and, even if not endorsing all my points, move in my direction.
>>2587766This is very true, but the 'lower middle class' get minimum wage plus cultural capital.
>>2586881>he's fallen into the "left-but-hates-the-left" nicheFreddie DeBoer is a high school teacher who wrote a book about eugenics, the same class position as Jeffrey Epstein whose worldview was also motivated by eugenics. Its a very "American Century of Humiliation" thing to be writing an education slop book based on proto-fascist Victorian genetic rationality
recent news about Epstein's eugenics:
https://bylinetimes.com/2025/12/05/how-epstein-channelled-race-science-and-climate-culling-into-silicon-valleys-ai-elite/>>2586946>capitalist realismthe podcast Game Studies Study Buddies did an episode on that book recently and pointed out how similar Mark Fisher's vulgar critique of Big Pharma is to that degenerate RFK Jr who vaguely alludes to "too much medications". Neoliberals simply want more babies to not survive their difficult childbirths, they want to deny fever medicine like Tynenol to prevent autistic children from being allowed to survive (with chronic disorders) as they have in the modern age.
>>2587991
Since alcohol is already legal I don't see the point in gatekeeping other drugs.
>>2587723We have a whole ecosystem of these up in Manchester anon. Started with the wife beater Charlie Veitch, and now you get these cunts attacking even lib environmentalists; have a habit of going out of their way to concuss women.
>>2588004Honestly we need to get better at street fighting. Or at least be tooled up to beat these cunts. Maybe a nice extending baton type thing.
>>2588006Issue is you try that with any of these and they have footage from several angles and you are getting nicked no matter what. Its an effective strategy that is why they do it. Also GMP are scared of these cunts because of a few lawsuits.
>>2587948His views on Education aren't that bad. You don't need to be a eugenicist or a particularly strong geneticist to believe that education cannot solve
relative problems of inequality. The "why" is not so important as that practical lesson.
I mean as he puts it himself
>1. In any given population, the ability to excel academically (whether or not you call it “intelligence”) is, like almost all other human abilities, plottable as a normal distribution: that is, a few people will be really bad at it, a few people will be really good, and the majority will be somewhere near the middle.
>2. Because some people are simply better at school than other people, any pedagogical strategy, practice, or method that improves the performance of the worst students will also improve the performance of the best students; this means that “closing the performance gap” between the worst and best students will only be possible if you use the best strategies for the worst students and the worst strategies for the best ones — and even then the most talented students will probably adapt pretty well, because that’s what being a talented student means. Another way to put it: if every student in America were equally well funded and every student equally well taught, point 1 above would still be true.
>3. Resistance to these two points is pervasive because we collectively participate in a “cult of smart” that overvalues academic performance vis-à-vis other human excellences. That is, because we value “intelligence” as a unique excellence, necessary to our approval, we cannot admit that some people simply aren’t smart. (By contrast, we have no trouble admitting that some people can’t run very fast or lift heavy weights, because those traits are not intrinsic to social approval.)#1 is only eugenicist if you ignore #3 and try to use eugenics to increase intelligence, and you can discard #1 and still agree that (regardless of intelligence) some people are better at school than others as in #2. If you accept #2 and #3, you can start to look more seriously at social problems instead of imagining that education is the answer. (particularly because some of those problems exist even if all 3 points are false. If school can make everyone Einstein, you're still going to have some people making millions while others work in tesco barring other, more necessary social reforms.)
I sympathize partly because I loathed and detested school while loving little more than learning, which I would say school actively hindered. My best year in terms of academic performance - and it was a good one - was the year I had an attendance rate around 50%, which doesn't say good things about the value of the institution… >>2588040
The way the law generally works in the UK is that the police can arrest you for everything and then rely on ignorance and discretion to not arrest you most of the time.
e.g. we get lots of headlines about people being arrested for tweets, but there are far more "offensive" tweets out there than arrests, because in a practical sense the crime is not to post offensive tweets, it is to post offensive tweets that people are so offended by that they call the police. similarly, basically anything can be a "breach of the peace" or cause "harassment, alarm or distress" and the real crime is (a) to be reported to the police or (b) to have the police take a dislike to you.
>>2588039
what is this supposed to show? some dickhead making himself a public nuisance?
>>2588045
what are you even talking about? since when is the left pro-rape gangs?
>>2588004wife beater AND PEDOPHILE charlie veitch
>>2588045
is it really "siding with grooming gangs" to emphasize that elements of the police force took part in the abuse and then told the press what they wanted to hear ("oh yeah, we didn't intervene because we didn't want to look racist lol") to cover it up
so the whole radicalized emphasis is really a right-wing distraction from what is, ultimately, yet another instance of britain's home-grown establishment noncery.
>>2588059this is how they gamed out their comms,
but, this:
>>2588058is the truth of the matter
>>2588071
1. MPs cover for the police, obviously. The MPs are very happy to make certain information (like the ethnicity of criminals) available where it suits a wider agenda.
2. While I have little investment in Islam either way, I have to dispute the idea there are zero positive returns to association with it. Alienating people who get very worked up about Islam is a positive return. Shibboleths are very important. I find ranting and raving about Islam boring, irrelevant to me, and, frankly, low-status. There are more interesting things to talk about, like Your Party being reported to the electoral commission for their silly name by "Labour Against Antisemitism".
>>2588071
>despite having zero positive returns on it.
The biggest marches in the UK since the iraq war have been heavily populated with Muslims. The left itself is heavily populated with second or third gen asian boys with Muslim parents/grand parents
>>2588083
there are actually
>>2588092
How old are you.
>>2588083
Pride Parades are mostly pink capitalist bullshit anyways. Full of scabs.
>>2588004Why don't you just batter them? These cunts wouldn't last two minutes down in the SW. They thrive because you let them.
>>2588083
theres heaps what you on about?
>>2588101Because of this you dumb cunt:
>>2588015"Why dont you attack multiple people filming you" because you are going to prison or they are coming to your house.
>>2588103
>old enough.
Worked that one out by the usage of emoji on an imageboard grandad.
>>2588104
would probably be better with sound no?
>>2588100
The difference is this country didn't spend decades bombing Jewish countries and putting intelligence operatives into synagogues.
>>2588107Well wait until their cameras are off and/or mask and mob up, you absolute mong.
>>2588115
Unless the government actually recognised Israel as a terrorist state this idea is obviously a non-starter so I don't even see the point in bringing it up. Look you can be an atheist, that's fine, but just show some respect as well, we're not teenagers anymore, there's good jews, bad jews, good muslims, bad muslims, christians, hindus etc.
>>2588115
listen my man you seemed okay if slightly aggrieved but you keep repeatedly admitting to being a vociferous reddit poster
>>2588120
Ok well nonetheless the separation between 'Zionist' and 'Jew' is an incredibly important tool for the left which is why Israel and the Zionist lobby in the UK are so keen to erase the distinction. We shouldn't do their work for them and start frothing at the mouth about da joos. Neither should we do that for Muslims. Yes the rape gangs were despicable but it's not as if the left was like "come on, let them off, it's not that bad!". It's the police that are to blame, it isn't the job of the general public to investigate allegations of rape, so yes I remember laughing at that 'muslamic ray guns' guy, fair enough he was right they existed but still no excuse to hate immigrants /Muslims in general.
>>2588126
Obviously I support this woman, however, I'm not sure what she really expected, there's some things you can't do and still expect to have a professional career at the same time.
>>2588121I don't go up north on principle. Like I said, there's a reason they don't try that shit down here.
>>2588133Great, don't talk tough about stuff you won't do yourself then.
>>2588143How would it even be a good idea for guys in the south to come up and fill in your fascists, anon?
If you don't learn to do it yourselves nobody is going to come to save you…
>>2588117They're constantly livestreaming and there are half a dozen of them you don't know what the fuck you are on about.
>>2588114
>Do the same thing back to them.
>Most of these "DEFEND BRITAIN STOP THE NONCES" types have rap sheets 100 pages long filled with all sorts of nonce and other psychotic behaviour.
>Start filming them and list out their criminal offenses lol.
Doesn't work it's well known Charlie Veitch is a wifebeater and nonce, nothing happens. The main "flagger" in Central Manchester was convicted for people smuggling vietnamese into britain. Paul Golding is a convicted wifebeater (of another BritNat activist too!) and yet nobody fucking cares. The general public don't care about these dickheads enough to do something and anyone else will either go to prison or get their house firebombed and these streamers will just come back the next weekend.
>>2588112
Your age "deduces" (wrong usage of the word btw) that you are fucking senile. Lead-poisoned generation that fucked this country.
>>2588163they think these guys are based for beating their wives and screwing underage cuchi and people smuggling is just good business sense
>>2588161Ah yes, sure they're livestreaming on the way to the demo, on the way back, when thry go for a piss, to the shops, etc etc etc.
There are no issues here that other antifa groupings havent worked around 100s of times begore, im sure. Tbh sounds like you're just looking for excuses for inaction. Do you think it stops here with these people? Do you think you and your mates won't become targets?
>>2588229
is she implying that the holocaust didnt happen?
>>2588240Most Muslims don't believe in the Holocaust, but I guess it's probably racist of me to point that out.
Indeed if it was publicised in the mainstream media, then we'd have yet another social crisis to deal with wouldn't we?
It's a bit like how we ignore the overwhelming support for incest amongst Pakistani communities, and that fact the majority of British Pakistanis have first cousin marriages.
Best to sweep that inconvenient fact under the rug for the sake of social cohesion. Probably will be called racist for mentioning that too tbh.
Really though, there's more than enough evidence of Israel's crimes to dismantle Zionism entirely without putting the Holocaust in scare quotes with a trademark symbol. It's just unnecessary and makes people question what angle you're coming at it from.
>>2588294"A report by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research in 2017 found that 10 per cent of religious Muslims say the Holocaust is a myth and 18 per cent that it has been exaggerated."
yet more lies lol
>>2588294she seems to be casting a wide net.
>>2588229
Non of that second paragraph is new its literally just settler colonialism.
1) no different from Rhodesia, the US, Australia, canada
2) Ditto.
Shes a mad anti communist
>>2588100
>I went to Catholic school (despite never being baptised), I was raised among religious nutbags on both sides of my family (Mormon one side, JW on the other)
this explains why you're a whackjob i see it now
So the Royal Navy is going to dump sonars all over the North Sea to stop Ruskis or something. Military industrialists are going to get lotsa money.
>>2588376Whats inside it?
>inb4 sheep kidney jelly >>2588376I for one have never liked them
>>2588376I can't stand mince pies or any christmas food and I hate roast dinners. Bring back the christmas curry.
>>2588361All the UK is anymore is one big 'jobs for the boys' scam.
>>2588376British food is onky bad if you are so racist as to consider non-whites as non-british.
British food isn't so bad. I like a German Kebab, me.
>>2588406what is non-white british food?
>>2588416Curry, (from Balti to Curried Goat to Tika massala). Spag Bol. Rice and Peas. Etc.
English food is disgusting. Welsh food is disgusting. Scottish food is disgusting.
The only nation that has good food in Britain is Cornwall.
>>2588442Fuck off Rick Stein. The Cornish Republican Army will get you.
>>2588443I am the Cornish Republican Army's strongest soldier.
>>2588442British food is taught to new culinary arts students in Italy. If done right it's delicious. If done wrong, it's a bunch of fried slop spilling out of a pizza box
Since we're discussing food, here's your reminder to go vegan.
If you care for ending oppression and violence then animal liberation is essential, all living beings deserve the right to live.
>>2588447Wrong. Animals are all petty bourgeois.
>>2588447It's just realistic to expect 9 billion humans to attain sufficient sustenance from plant based options
>>2588451vegans dont care about human sustainability, which is why they often fantasise about our extinction
>>2588451Growing plants requires far less energy and land area than rearing animals. Not to add all the additional crops necessary for farm animals.
>>2588447>all living beings deserve the right to live.Even bacteria giving you infection?
>>2588454I assume vegans are underage or close to it. It's nearly impossible to sustain 1 human life through veganism, much less billions of lives and you must be very young to endure it
>>2588457Obviously if something is making you ill or killing you that's different. No vegan is saying you shouldn't fight back if an animal attempted to kill you. Also remember vegans do in fact still eat plants and mushrooms and so forth, since it's necessary to live. Please use common sense.
>>2588459Right. I will have a sheep fight me before I make my lamb curry.
>>2588455That's fine for someone who doesn't work using his/her hands, but completely unrealistic to a real worker doing construction for 10 hours a day or swinging a hammer. If we could all graze on veg and lounge at our wfh job sure
>>2588460Just walk through a field and take the one that charges you. Simple.
the proletarian animal colosseum
>>2588463You can be a labourer and veggie/vegan, anon. Absurd to pretend it's somehow unfeasable or unreasonably difficult.
>>2588458>It's nearly impossible to sustain 1 human life through veganismThere's literally millions of vegans living just fine, including countless professional athletes. Lewis Hamilton, Serena and Venus Williams, Novak Djokovic to name a few of the most famous ones.
>you must be very young to endure itThe founder of modern veganism lived to be 95.
>>25884689 billion human beings
Most of whom perform some sort of physical labor job
Spoiled westie boughy decides they don't need or deserve meat, because he doesn't
Vegans cannot help but look silly
>>2588470Professional athletes earning $100 million a year? Wow! That's just like my living situation. I'll buy several personal chefs to wait on my hunger as well.
>>2588475So if athletes and those in manual labour intensive jobs couldn't survive on veganism, that proves it can't work.
But if they can survive on veganism, that also proves it can't work?
Why don't you just accept the evidence of reality that millions of people are living ordinary lives while being vegan?
>>2588472???? Did you just stroke out?
Starting to think you've not worked a physical job in your life.
>>2588479Because the framework includes billions of people. In fact 9 billion people that you're going to feed with beans and lettuce. My question for you is why do vegans feel the need to convince other people to adopt their dietary habits?
>>2588480I've only worked in physical jobs. Factories, restaurants, warehouses, and the like. Someone who has a rigorous physical lifestyle isn't available to post 50,000 post per day lol
>>2588447Farm animals are resources that are dependent on human care and intervention to live in the first place, they would not survive in a "natural" environment
>>2588493>My question for you is why do vegans feel the need to convince other people to adopt their dietary habits?We are opposed to murder, torture, violent abuse, and so on.
We are just morally consistently and apply that principle to monkeys, cows, pigs, and so on.
>>2588502>morallyI would happily eat a monkey if it tasted good. We are not the same.
>>2588506Then why not a human? What's the distinction?
>>2588493Because its funny to watch you all chimp out about it in response.
>>2588509Nta, I personally would but there's a key difference between us and other animals and it's sapiency. If an animal develops the capacity for sapiency then it absolutely should be treated as we treat other humans
>>2588502Well you would be murdering far more than that as the majority of the world's population would starve to death. The cultivation of animals used as sustenance is the reason why the world population has increased significantly over the past several centuries, as human beings became stronger due to the consumption of animal protein.
Another big proponent of eliminating animal protein as a dietary option is Bill Gates. I find it interesting when the objectives of the most greedy capitalists overlap with those of people that are supposed to be of a higher moral standard.
>>2588502 You're fine with the torture and abuse of the people harvesting your food
>>2588514>and it's sapiencyCompletely arbitrary category.
>>2588517You can feed far more people with the same amount of land if you grow crops on it rather than rearing animals. We've already discussed this.
You already need the additional crops to feed the animals, plus the energy to house them, the antibiotics to keep them from disease, the facilities to murder them, etc.
>>2588519No I'm not. What a bizarre straw man.
>>2588528And all of that amounts to absolutely nothing. As I've previously stated the majority of human beings need animal protein because they perform physical labor. It is such a selfish entitled mindset of someone who unknowingly is completely unwrapped in capitalism and it's excess.
>>2588532>proteinMay I introduce you to mushrooms, soya, beans, nuts, etc?
>>2588509cannibalism is a taboo in most cultures, yet meat eating is the norm.
>>2588529another closeted gay fascist - you dont say?
>>2588535No you don't need to because I consume mushrooms, nuts, and beans. Soy is unhealthy for a virile man of my stature.
>>2588544>virileCare to prove that claim?
>>2588551This is a blue board
>>2588559relax bro
you can still be vegan
Infighting on the left within one general on one website
It's so over for us…
>>2588576Obviously you can do physical labour and be vegan, don't be retarded
>>2588496And here I was thinking you were on about being on site. Not being able to handle those jobs on vegetables is more of a self report than anything.
I don't really understand why people want meat and cheese. It's just so disgusting for me.
just had cheese on toast. yum
>>2588035>any pedagogical strategy, practice, or method that improves the performance of the worst students will also improve the performance of the best studentsseems obviously false, once you know and understand something, when you have all the right answers, you cant get a better performance.
>cannot admit that some people simply aren’t smartthats simply false, everyone knows some people are better at certain things, and everyone recognize some people are better academically, but intelligence is a very large and not well understood beast and is not equivalent to academic performance
>>2588176>There are no issues here that other antifa groupings havent worked around 100s of times begore, im sure.These are literally novel issues. I get the seriousness, but if they get a bloody nose they post it to twitter and claim money from randos in fuckign Lincolnshire. Literally giving them martyrbait in order to get more popular/famous/rich.
>>2588891>and everyone recognize some people are better academically, but intelligence is a very large and not well understood beast and is not equivalent to academic performanceThen why put all our eggs in the basket of improving the test scores of those who aren't suited to academia when you could just let them do something they're good at? Why sacrifice them to the cult of schooling?
new thread time soon
>>2588941So what's the solution, anon? Sincerely how are you all going to deal with this nonsense?
They're out here gay-bashing. We're going places even less good in this country.
I do not understand the irrational love you britleftists have for Zultana
BBC News exists for 4 reasons:
>Promote the idea that neoliberal capitalism is the only "sensible" political position (whether that's socially progressive or socially reactionary neoliberalism just depends on the current climate)
>Promote Zionism & defend Israel
>Attack trans rights & protect TERFs/transphobia
>Promote and defend the Monarchy
Is there a timeframe for when the main committe for YourParty will be appointed? Or have I missed that?
>>2589665Was supposed to be elected by the end of January, the timeline and structures for the elections and nominations was supposed to be published yesterday but wasn't. Been radio silence from YP channels since conference.
Leadership seems to have been completely unprepared for some conference outcomes and no one knows what's going on behind the scenes atm so just have to wait until some announcement comes out
>>2589642I think a good left-wing campaign to launch would be demanding that (a) the license fee is abolished and the BBC is directly funded, and (b) the total shutdown of BBC news and current affairs content. It can still do documentaries etc, but the rest of them belong on the dole since (
at best) what they offer is a distillation of what the newspapers are saying.
>>2588987>new thread time soonNo. We shall just wallow here.
>>2589416If I knew I would be telling people to do it wouldn't??
>>2589611shes a lib that is good on Palestine so is Corbyn
>>2590036Fair enough.
A great situationist stunt would be to kidnap them and chuck them in the channel.
Want to do something productive? Go to the Birmingham Bin Strike picket on the 30th of Jan.
https://actionnetwork.org/events/join-the-brum-bin-strike-megapicket-iii-30-january-2026>>2590676we're all in here
>>2588100
ok Christopher Htchens
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