givas ceasefire or
givas death edition.
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>>2587023Evidence of the influence and origin of neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine
https://archive.ph/44B9Qhttps://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323637https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323658https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323663https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323688https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323729https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323733https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323731https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323735https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323740https://azovlobby.substack.com/https://banderalobby.substack.com/—————————————————–
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577 posts and 139 image replies omitted.>>2600780Because they are trying to obfuscate class relations with the traditional opium now that the liberal thousand year reich dream is fading.
>>2600836uh, isn't that just russia becoming capitalist again?
>>2600837Yes I do believe that's the point
>>2600846So you are teaching people here that capitalism has been restored in Russia in 1991? They do not already know that? Or did you just want to suck Unruhe's retarded cock?
>>2600848Neither. I'm asking what you make of his post. Why are you suddenly so angry and defensive?
Seeing as you seemingly didn't understand - he's stating that it doesn't make sense for communists to support capitalist factions in wars, be it Ukraine/NATO or Russia.
He's therefore extrapolating that people who identify as communist but support Putin and Russia are not genuinely communist but actually motivated by other, socially reactionary ideological views.
Do you understand it now? I'm merely asking the thread what people make of that position, whether they agree, or else what they find to be wrong it. Is that a crime?
>>2600851>sitting inside the West>condemning the enemies of the WestI'd ask when his own list is dropping, and when is he going to write anti-communist dreck, like Animal Farm.
Unruhe is an anarcracker westoid treatler
>>2600851>>2600851 Not taking sides is tantamount to supporting the USA you fucking retard
Nobody thinks they are 'supporting communism' when supporting Putin's Russia. We support Russia because it decreases (ever so slightly) America's totalitarian grasp over the world.
The anti-campist stance is a luxury for comfortable white bois.
>muh hegemony
Faking gramsci man
>>2600866If you live in a NATO country then there's functionally no difference between a pro-Russian and an anti-campist position as long as you are promoting revolutionary defeatism against your own government.
As long as the miner's heart beats in the chest,
And the blood of sons runs warm within that heart,
I want the song to be the coal-cutter's friend,
To forge the steel and lead deep into the shaft,
To rivet cages, and to raise up buildings,
And on the scaffolds of great creation
To be an example of the highest valor.
Donbas shall live! Siren calls to siren
The steel good news of miners' friendship:
No one has brought Donbass to its knees,
And no one ever shall!
And there is no land more beautiful, more inspired,
Where all is created by the people, the makers.
No one has brought Donbass to its knees,
And no one ever shall!
And there is no Fatherland purer or more sacred
Where all hearts merge into one…
And this heart is blessed by Lenin
The great beacon of our dear Party!
>>2600890There is aboslutely zero revolutionary defeatism being promoted in NATO countries. Leftcoms and anarchists are the biggest nazi cheerleaders for NATO. Fuck them and fuck you.
>>2600866Only a fucking American could be this detached and isolated from geopolitical reality as to hold such a backwards position.
Because if you lived anywhere else in the world the notion of direct risk of interference from Russia is just as real as the risk of it from the USA, they are both trying to fuck us.
You live in the only country where Russia is some abstract entity you don't have to consider the concrete actions of.
Russia has a very strong grasp over lots of countries but your dumb yank ass probably never even heard of them.
It goes without saying you can't be a communist and support Ukrainian NATO Bandera Hitlerite blood and soil nationalism.
You also can't be a communist and support Russian blood and soil imperialist conquest and mass kidnapping of children to be put up for sale in Russia.
Read up on revolutionary defeatism dumb American "MList" Duginite Nazbol Russian blood and soil revanchist ass theorylet.
>>26013241. I’m not American.
2. I do not give a shit about countries in Russia’s sphere of influence. Russia’s grasp on them is still weaker than America’s grasp on Europe, Japan, SK, Taiwan etc.
3. All that matters is the weakening of American hegemony. No matter how many Navalnys, or Pussy Riots, or democratic NGOs rot and die in Russian prisons. I piss on them. To quote Bertolt Brecht, “The more innocent they are, the more they deserve to die.”
4. I do not give a single fuck about Russian neonazis, Dugin, Orthodox Church weirdos etc. All that matters is weakening of American hegemony. If a Russian Hitler benefits from this, SO BE IT.
5. Do not ever call me American again.
>>2601329Russia just existing next to its neighbours…. menacingly.
>>2601339Honestly, I don’t actually recall anyone ever giving specific examples of Russia’s interference with its neighbours. It’s just taken as a given that Russian interference is a thing, with the invasion of Georgia and Ukraine being pushed as “if they were willing to invade then they must have been interfering in other countries’ politics as well”.
Beyond that any scandal that happens in any of Russia’s neighbours also gets blamed on Russia. Like Russia’s existence is to blame for Kallas’ husband doing business with Russia, the Georgian equivalent of the Foreign Agents law is a “Russian” law, the Ukrainian leadership’s theft of state money is a thing apparently because the Russians taught and inspired them how to do it, etc
>>2601159>There is aboslutely zero revolutionary defeatism being promoted in NATO countries. If that's the case then it must apply to pro-Russian people too, in which case there's still zero meaningful difference between anti-campists and pro-Russians. Cheerleading the Russian war effort doesn't make you more objectively anti-imperialist than somebody who doesn't take a side if neither of you are actually doing anything.
>>2601360>that’s not revolutionary defeatism, that’s just cheerleading for RussiaIncredible take
>>2600303That's not the even the funniest part. Apparently Lukashenko kept them all in an information blackout while they were in prison, with the exception of the occasional state-tv broadcasts, so they literally had no idea what the fuck was going on and when asked who started the war/whose fault the war was was they had to resort to "war is bad mmkkkk both sides are wrong" standard answers for their Ukrainian audience which really pissed off the Ukrainians. Maria was so surprised that she was asked a question in Ukrainian by a reporter that she automatically requested a translation into Russian which again really made the Ukrainians mad. Top tier trolling from Lukashenko. And Babariko's son is still in prison as a hostage.
>>2601363I'm saying that if all you do is cheerlead for Russia instead of engaging in revolutionary defeatist *action* then you aren't any more anti-imperialist than a both sideser who does the same. Similarly, a both sideser who does engage in revolutionary defeatism is more objectively anti-imperialist. All that matters is engaging in revolutionary defeatist praxis.
>>2601369No lies detected.
>>2601370>Similarly, a both sideser who does engage in revolutionary defeatism is more objectively anti-imperialist. All that matters is engaging in revolutionary defeatist praxis.The point is that will never happen if both-siders think *ACTION* stands to benefit Russia, by virtue of Russia and the US being perfectly balanced on the imperialism scale and countering each other's imperial ambitions perfectly. That any
ACTION that would result in defeat for NATO would be merely to destroy that balance and I guess hand world domination over to Putin.
Please don't downplay the takes on this thread as mere cheerleading, because if there ever were to be actioned revolutionary defeatism, that starts at having an awareness of why the west ought to lose in the first place.
>I think our enemies should lose first, then we can work on losing as wellis not the start to action, it's the start to complacency.
>>2601385>The point is that will never happen if both-siders think *ACTION* stands to benefit RussiaThat simply isn't true. I've participated in joint actions with individuals and parties who considered this an inter-imperialist conflict. In fact some of the most active and committed anti-imperialists I've ever met fit into this category.
>That any ACTION that would result in defeat for NATO would be merely to destroy that balance and I guess hand world domination over to Putin.According the that logic they shouldn't want a defeat of Russia either.
>is not the start to actionThe start of action is recognizing the necessity of working with people you disagree with on things which are in the grand scheme of things irrelevant.
>>2601385>by virtue of Russia and the US being perfectly balanced on the imperialism scale and countering each other's imperial ambitions perfectly That's not what the both-siders are scared of. It's clear that a faction of the American bourgeoisie, under Trump and the Republicans, wish to quickly reconcile with Russia, write off Ukraine, and form an alliance to contain China, in a reversal of the Sino-Soviet split. Likewise, there is a section of the Russian bourgeoisie who openly wish to push for such an alliance as well. This is why all the hate against "both-siders" is totally misguided. It is clear that should Russia and America conclude some sort of agreement that the Russian Federation, rather than continuing to be an anti-imperialist outpost and rallying front for all the oppressed nations, would join into the Western imperialist bloc and become yet another obstacle for socialists everywhere. Putin may not opt for such an alliance, but Putin is getting on in his years. Who is to say his successor wouldn't?
>>2601391Even if such an alliance was somehow made real, it would be merely setting the clock back a few years until the Democrats are back in power and start making demands of Russia again. Why on Earth would Russia opt for that over an alliance with China, which requires no concessions?
>>2601390>anecdotal evidence and self-promotion about undisclosed actionsOkay cool, I’m very impressed by yourself and the people you know
>bothsidists shouldn’t want Russia to loseI think people can agree based on all we’ve seen over the years ITT and the dearly departed anti-campist thread, the idea is that Russia’s invading of Ukraine is an as-yet-unsuccessful attempt at harming that balance while NATO expansionism wasn’t.
>be willing to work with people you disagree withYou’re the one who’s come out swinging with the accusation we’re just cheerleaders for Russia lmao
>>2600836I respond thus: Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, bruh, I just like when Nazis get shot. I don't worship the person pulling the trigger.
>>2601412>You’re the one who’s come out swinging with the accusation we’re just cheerleaders for Russia lmaoI came out criticizing the notion that you have to support Russia to discharge your duty as an anti-imperialist in a Western country.
>>2601458No one ITT says that, it's the hysterical that claim this thread can't possibly be SO anti-NATO without being motivated by a strong and sincere support for Russia and its state in general.
>>2601369>Putin hopes for dialogue with Europe, but it is unlikely with its current political leadershipNothing really to criticize there except that he's still pretending that Europe isn't doing precisely what America wants it to do. There's still no sign of post-Blumpf clarity. This is why Blumpf was a mistake and why I wish Biden had won - then Putin wouldn't be able to parade these illusions.
>>2601477 (me)
Or Kamala rather. Whatevs.
>>2601467The post I initially responded to said that not supporting Russia meant supporting the US, and such sentiments are pretty common ITT.
baker
>>2601536The post said not picking sides in this conflict is essentially picking the US because that’s true, this conflict was a result of NATO’s expansion that the US has been pushing since the 90s, despite voicing that they wouldn’t do that and against Russia’s request for the goodwill the Cold War was ended on be upheld. The post doesn’t even claim Russia is a motivated and pro-active anti-imperial force, just that Russia currently acts to thwart the US’s imperial ambitions and that’s where their support for Russia derives from.
Then you started yelping about cheerleaders for Russia.
>>2601655I think his point is that if someone is declaratively both-sidedist but their praxis is anti-NATO they are net anti-imperialist and there is no point in attacking or demonizing them. Which is entirely fair. Even the likes of KRPF and RKRP positively cover KKE's praxis despite their everyone-badist position, for example:
https://msk.kprf.ru/2024/03/26/250415/ >>2601677>declaratively both-sidedist but their praxis is anti-NATO they are net anti imperialist and there is no point in attacking or demonizing themKind of like a nun who spends Friday nights hooking on a street corner? My first reaction would be to marvel at such a curiosity, not to attack or demonize.
>>2601677That is fair and not the part I disagree with tbh. I disagree with the accusation that, to think neutrality is misguided in such an obviously US/NATO provoked situation, makes one a cheerleader for Russia.
Sum1 bake
Nah, what is this thread even for at this point? To be repeatedly asked our own equivalent of
>But do you condemn October 7th?
for years and years?
>>2601927to inform people that comes in, also to counter propagandized people. yeah.
>>2601885not little pigs, but underpigs.
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