CPUSAnon is a Strasseeite faggot.
Ethiopian Glowie is a narcissistic schizo who thinks he can read in people's brains and is at the origin of everything.
Sabo-anon is a shitlib kkkanakkkuckkk.
Leftcoms as a group are hitlerites.
This thread has a severe lack of actual communists.
>>2695254
>you have cheap gas because you gave iraqis birth defects you reactionary freak.
No, we have cheap gas because the Saudis are selling it to us at a loss in exchange for not letting the Houthis overthrow their evil and laughably incompetent monarchy. Iraq primarily benefited US oil and gas companies and weapons companies, not really consumers, since American companies are still selling us Iraqi oil at the same price the market dictates(the highest price they can get away with). For consumers to be benefiting, that would imply companies like BP, Exxon, and Shell are keeping oil prices artificially low to idk, win US consumers to their side or something, when the reality is quite the opposite; they're trying to maximize profits from oil by periodically spiking the price with the knowledge it will be obsolete in the next 2-3 decades. also, the recent decline in oil prices in the US has basically nothing to do with the middle east and everything to do with fracking and offshore drilling from the Trump/Biden admins because we decided having an environment is cringe and gay or something idk.
>you have cheap fruit because your CIA overthrew socialists on behalf of united fruit
no, the vast majority of fruit consumed in the US is grown here. ironically the US exports a ton of fruit and vegetables to asia and latin america.
>you have cheap computers because CIA-backed warlords enslave african children to mine cobalt
also wrong, our computers aren't even cheap in fact they're in line with the prices the rest of the world pays. PC prices are FUCKED because AI companies bought all the RAM, hard drives, and graphics cards on the market and the global supply is fucked until at least 2028 or whenever OpenAI collapses, whichever comes first.
(reposting for new thread)
>>2695287You’re a digital djinn, get ye gone, you have no power here
OP pic: CPUSAnon with his Warhammer toy soldiers which he shoves in his ass like a degenerate yank while he thinks of Joe Sims' kkkollaborating bald head.
>>2695295I CAST YOU AWAY IN THE NAME OF ALLAH
>>2695293Excuses. Always bitching and moaning.
The yank is the greatest victim in history. Oh! How the fat yank suffers while his B52 drops a bomb over my hut!
>>2695287>Sabo-anon is a shitlib kkkanakkkuckkkSurprised you've got an issue with that last part considering your Anglophilia.
>>2695301Soon the suffering American masses will swarm over Mauritius to deprive them of their ill-gotten treats.
>>2695301However free the chagos islands and close the base at diego garcia
New thread, new reminder: That VAST majority of Americans are WILLING and GLEEFUL collaborators.
>>2695306felix why havent you done anything to stop ICE yet? other people are getting arrested for burning down detention centers and you haven't done SHIT. are you some kinda collaborator?
>>2695306With time on USApol, I realised 95% of what Felix said is completely TRUE. It is a shame mods hate him so much.
>>2695301>high income economyAn engineering graduate here earns 500dollars a month.
Sure, that is very 'high income'.
>>2695305>who will only join the revolutionary movement that is already in place and appears to be capable of winningThat's most people in any civil conflict Anon. IIRC during most slave revolts in the US only around 25% of the slaves in the affected area participated, simply because most didn't believe these uprisings had a chance of success. If we were to apply TWist logic then we would have to conclude that the complete lack of any successful slave revolt in America can only be explained by the slaves and masters having class interests in common.
>>2695311>I realised 95% of what Felix said is completely TRUEAbout himself , hes just as treatler and inactive as the people he hates but he has some delusions of grandeur
>>2695313You have it better than people living in detriot oakland ,and new orleans just on crime alone
establish basic succdemery despite being rich
Honestly its great i hope the whole african continent could be like that with education, social services and the absence of violence im happy you guys made it
>>2695318And Mauritius isn’t even an entirely unique case in Africa of this, Cape Verde is similarly well off, they get the tourism, natural beauty, and service but not the hurricanes that plague the Caribbean.
>>2695313If you’re not going to leave at least tell us about Anerood Jugnauth or something, clearly we need to learn from our political betters
>>2695311what is the 5% you disagree with
>>2695328If you think about it America is also the purest form of AES because they have apparently abolished class differences within their society.
>>2695318Bullshit
Your treat-addicted lumpen gladly rape women and bully locals in the countries your imperialist regime occupies. They get know sympathy for me.
>>2695330That colonialism started capitalism. That I disagree with.
I am not even sure it was Felix who held this opinion, other anons were insisting that it is him.
>>2695332Most people who enlist are actually middle class, tho
>>2695332You're just mad they aren't bullying you and beating up your bussy.
>>2695330I also disagree with the fact that he concentrates his vitriol on crackkers, and often implies that native americans and black americans are part of the oppressed.
I wholeheartedly disagree. All yanks are guilty. Black americans and native americans would gladly behead a third world girl and piss in her severed neck if and when given the chance. Their kkkulture is the same fascist kkkulture as crackkamerikkkans.
>>2695332Also doesnt change the fact that many major cities in the usa have more violent crime than you
>>2695331ah but only gorbachev withered away the state
>>2695340that sounds like more than 5% tbh fam
>>2695336Most, not all. Your detroit cockroaches are as guilty as the cockroaches of Beverly Hills.
None of you are victims. You are the enemy of the world proletariat.
>>2695341So? That is your baboon behaviour. You are not a victim. You are the one chimping out violently because you are a shityank. A disgusting stooopid violent degenerate creature.
>>2695346You don’t actually believe that, if you did, you wouldn’t bother talking, you’d be shooting. Your limp wrists couldn’t handle a weapon anyway.
>>2695314The people desperate enough for a revolution don't have to be s majority, yes.
They just have to be the right people. And I don't think middle class mom & pops looking forward to retirrment and their leftoid kids for whom marxism is just an intellectual game are them.
You need insane and desperate mfs like john brown, or those 25% among the most oppressed who don't care if they die in a civil war any more.
Correct strategy for communists in the belly of the beast is of extreme importance because if they fail to bring the castle walls from the inside, it really is going to be "kill all kkkrakkas" in the sense that the third world will have to attack tbe US from the outside dirrctly, triggering WW3 and most likely resulting in nukes going off
>>2695311How do you not see the felix is the same narscistic american that you hate?
>>2695350>You need insane and desperate mfs like john brownhe was a middle class business owner though. people forget that about him.
>>2695350It’s not going to be the teamsters and the longshoremen that’s for sure
>>2695348Yeah i guess your life is harder than the guy i knew from la who got shot and killed outside his house at 25
I bet if he had it as rough as you he would spend hours on the interent calling people names like how all the oppressed do?
I bet he would have loved to have gone to college but instead he worked in the sun for below minimum wage.
I’m gonna make curry from chicken liver tomorrow
>>2695358Sounds like a treat
>>2695358Which is politically and economically relevant because it’s the only protein I found for under $2, it’s that and tinned sardines
>>2695357Was he an immigrant?
>>2695361If youtube shorts is to be believed it’s a Palestinian recipe
>>2695363Nah a black guy from the ghetto
>>2695360The indonesian name for these guys literally translates to Dutchman iirc
>>2695364>>2695364Post recipe, the only curry i know lf the middle east is alexandiran koshari
The glitch in the matrix earlier was for targeting what tptb consider speech crimes.
>tfw no treatlerite gf that buys you funkos
political economy theory for this feel?
Great apes have to be loved from a distance, gorillas are emotionally fragile, chimps have all our cruelty and sadism with the strength of ten of us, same goes for orangutans, they’re in the middle of figuring out basic tools rn, bonobos are walking sex pests
>>2695317I think anon was saying that they're not pretending, but they are first worlders who live in the first world. Like Black Hammer cultists basically.
>>2695352>narscisticThe irony of this twink faggot who makes every single thread about himself calling anyone narcissistic. I mean he literally unironically says things like:
>Shityank scum! I am real Bolshevik Chagossian superior to Amerikkkan treatlerite.Or whatever string of broken English nonsense.
>>2695382I don’t think seven spice is available at the grocery store but i think all the ingredients are, it’s fine, cooking is a labor of love I don’t care if that makes me a treatler
>>2695301why does it anger you that people outside the US have semi decent living conditions?
>>2695384Yeah but to him americans are narcist except the guy who admitted he wants otherpeople to fightvand die so he can be the next lenin?
>>2695388It doesnt but it is a little ironic that he hasnt better that alot of people in this thread
>>2695392The internet is the ultimate treat, it’s like the weaponized film from Infinite Jest
>>2695396>it’s like the weaponized film from Infinite JestThe Samizdat
>>2695287>This thread has a severe lack of actual communists.So what makes you an "actual communist?" Everything you say is retarded as hell no offense.
>>2695371Ethiopian house uyghur of his yank master calling others monkey
Incredible
>>2695406Not fleeing to the empire and lick the master's ass is a good start, askari.
>>2695414Chagos always has to make every USA thread to be about Mauritius. Very interesting…….
>>2695419That was not me, moron.
More than one person hates Amerikkkans.
>>2695416>>2695414The thread will be free of Chagos once your faggot pedo army gets the fuck out of Chagos, you hyperzionists.
https://www.twz.com/news-features/final-pieces-moving-into-place-for-potential-attack-on-iran
>A large wave of American airpower is heading toward the Middle East to bolster forces already there as U.S. President Donald Trump considers an attack against Iran. Online flight trackers are showing F-22 Raptors, F-16 Fighting Falcons, E-3 Sentry radar planes and a U-2 Dragon Lady spy plane either in transit across the Atlantic or newly arrived in Europe. In addition, a seventh Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer, the USS Pinckney, has recently deployed to the U.S. Central Command Area of Responsibility (AOR) as well, a U.S. Navy official told us.
>While we don’t know whether Trump will decide to attack Iran, these are exactly the movements we’ve been expecting, but so far not seeing, in advance of a sustained operation, both defensive and offensive. The U.S. aircraft heading east represents the most intense phase of a force plus-up that began after Trump started threatening Iran over its harsh treatment of anti-regime protesters. Taken together, the force now assembling in the Middle East, combined with the Israel Air Force’s capabilities, including hundreds of fighter aircraft, as well as USAF ‘global airpower’ bomber flights, would be enough for a major operation that could last weeks not days. We will likely see additional assets deploy in the coming days.
>This intensifying buildup comes against the backdrop of another round of peace negotiations between Washington and Tehran that wrapped up Tuesday morning Eastern Time with future discussions being planned. You can read more about that later in this story.
>Online flight tracking data shows that at least a dozen F-22s have left Langley Air Force Base in Virginia at about 5 a.m. Eastern, heading east. Their first destination is most likely Lakenheath Air Base in the U.K., a major transit hub for aircraft moving between the U.S. and Middle East. However, we don’t know that for sure and CENTCOM has declined to talk about aircraft, ship and troop movements.
>F-22s are primarily America’s most capable air-to-air fighter, but they can also be used to destroy enemy air defenses and strike other ground targets. Raptors helped protect B-2A Spirit stealth bombers during last June’s Operation Midnight Hammer attack on Iranian nuclear facilities. It should be noted that four days before Midnight Hammer, F-22s made a similar transit across the Atlantic and took part in the mission.
>At least 36 F-16s appear to be on the move toward the Middle East as well. This reportedly includes 12 each from Aviano Air Base in Italy, Spangdahlem Air Base in Germany and McEntire Joint National Guard Base (JNGB) in South Carolina. As with the Raptors, these jets could be used in a defensive air-to-air role against drones and missiles or in an air-to-ground role. There are a limited number of USAF F-16s already in theater.Looks like Trump is getting ready to attack. They've just been going round and round the same points in the negotiations. I think at this point, one side has to walk away from the negotiations a loser or Trump is going to attack.
Third-worldism means I don't have to do anything cause the third worlders are gonna do it, right?
>>2695443As long as you feel bad about it. Always remember that one poor anon in Mauritius you are driving to madness every day you exist.
>>2695443Actually, since you benefit materially from imperialism and so forth it's your Marxist duty to help
stopping the third worlders from getting up to something.
>>2695428Is this the hysterical neurologically challenged individual that wanted to deport Zohran?
>>2695473Is it tho? He really has never offered one good reason he should be so aggro all the time. I mean I get along with the Russians on this site and our country is currently supplying weapons and intelligence to kill their countrymen. Why should Chagos be so upset? He just has a personality disorder.
But I know what you mean, for some reason I end up pitying him even though he does nothing but call us subhumans who should all die painful deaths. He's got a power to him.
>>2695360that's a polish monkey actually
>>2695473Chagos simp is never far behind
Also, I want fried chicken gizzards
>>2695483there are actually, unironically, anons on this website who say there is "no evidence" epstein was mossad when this bitch's dad was literally mossad
>>2695485i feel the initial urge to say "fuck this retarded treatler, fafo", but correct strategy demands that we pick up those wounded trump boomers and chuddes, wipe the diarrhea off their asses, put our arms on their shoulders, and promise them that everything gonna b okay bbygurl, here's why this stuff is happening, and how to organize to fight it
such indignity
>>2695540hi kyle when will you stop shilling for democrats
>>2695485it's baffling how much burgers are obsessed with lowering taxes, both in succdem terms of "tax the rich" (as if that's all that needs to be done) and in lolbertarian terms of "I don't care if my boss takes half of my labor power's contribution as surplus value, but I will shit my pants and call for insurrection if the government raises my taxes by 1%"
>>2695562i don't like kyle i just saw this linked in another thread and reposted it because I thought the solar fisheries were cool. democrats can burn in hell.
>>2695565burgers are very petit-bourgeois brained, they worry about taxes more than rent taking more than half your income a month. Someone making $40000 a year gross could pay zero taxes in all things and they will still be broke.
>>2695615do workers own their own property in a communist society?
>>2695595>>2695615This doesn't work because you're trying to use the idea that the individual worker is merely being "scammed" out of their surplus, while not highlighting that the "shape" of the capitalist system deprives humanity of far more than just personal wealth: it subordinates humans to an inhuman logic.
The natural response to this "ur being scammed" point is to want to band aid the system so that workers get all the surplus, but thevsystem remains capitalist.
Because you haven't made a critique of capitalism, you enticed the worker with a bigger share of the pie. Of course they'd then just say "ok, I just want a bigger share of the pie then", while not questioning the bakery
>>2695633so i can buy and sell peoperty, then?
>>2695623why cant workers own the bakery and have the pie?
>>2695641i am posing a rhetorical question to show how communism is inherently repellent to workers since you are telling them theyre not allowed to possess the fruits of their labour.
>>2695645it's a shit question bro
>>2695645I could tell. But I still wanted to answer in good faith anyway. Why do askers of rhetorical questions get upset when you answer them in good faith?
>>2695645>communism is inherently repellent to workersI agree!
>>2695647im a worker interested in communism. the banks own my house and force me to pay a mortgage. my boss steals my labour to enrich himself. will you help us finally be free by owning what belongs to us?
>>2695648>good faithits a yes or no. just say no.
>>2695642Because labor is socialized, it's impossible to quantify all the labor that went into a single pie.
Capitalists appropriate the surplus of an entire society's labor by sitting at the "exit point" of the commodity like a bridge troll, it doesn't make it better if a worker appropriates it instead.
The point is to stop giving a shit about who is entitled to what, and socialize the entire thing, meaning that the surplus of all labor will get pooled and then redistributed back into society, not that every individual worker will literally own the shit they make. That's not socialism, that's artisanship.
>>2695656>its a yes or no. just say no.I said "no" with my image. I showed you Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, all saying "no" but I also wanted to explain how some self described communists disagree with me, and cite, for example, articles of the North Korean constitutino.
>>2695659>The point is to stop giving a shit about who is entitled to what, and socialize the entire thingbut you are saying that everyone is entitled to an equal share, no? you are being contradictory.
>That's not socialism, that's artisanship.if workers dont own their houses, who does?
>>2695661>i said nookay, so workers will not own their own houses in a communist society. so why should workers give a shit?
>>2695663you've already admitted your questions are rhetorical, and you ignore most of what we tell you and only quote part of it, so maybe I should stop engaging with your ragebait.
>>2695662> equalnever said it has to be equal. read critique of gotha programme, read poverty of philosophy
>if workers dont own their houses, who doesthere's no ownership in the first place under communism, meaningless question
>>2695664NTA but if you cant answer why should workers give a shit you are NGMI
>>2695664no, im being deadly serious.
why would workers give a shit about communism if theyre not allowed to be free? youre just a slave master from the other end of things.
>>2695666>never said equalokay, so the pie is unevenly shared. what determines the proportion of this sharing except what workers were entitled to? you spin a long web here.
>>2695669>>2695671do not engage, they will say they are serious but they admitted earlier:
>>2695645>I am posing a rhetorical question to show how communism is inherently repellent to workers >>2695638Something like a bicycle or radio or a used refrigerator yeah, real estate no
>>2695674>workers are not allowed to own their stuff<why?>SHUT UP!infantile.
>>2695675so who owns all the land, then?
>>2695663Why should workers give a shit about "owning a house" any more than they should give a shit about "owning a drill" in itself.
You're describing a landlord, not a worker. Worker needs places to live, not ownership of property.
>>2695671>what determines the proportion of this sharing except what workers were entitled toThings aren't handed out to individuals, they're invested into society in general, such as roads, infrastructure, dams, science, the arts, and, yes, production.
In this case it's also impossible to tell how much a worker is "getting out" of walking on a public road, such a calculation is pointless.
Which industries and endeavors to invest into the surplus is determined the way humans determine things when they are free: by thinking about the problem really hard and discussing among each other.
In other words, humans become finally free to determine how to manage society, rather than being hamstrung by the imperative of accumulating profit.
>gets answer
>quotes half the answer
>admits he is rage baiting
>asks more bad faith questions anyway
>nobody bites
>pretends he is being told to shut up
>>2695679> Worker needs places to live, not ownership of property.exactly. to put it even more succinctly, nobody gives a shit about "owning" food. They want to eat food, not own it. They want to drink water, not own it. Circulation of necessities to those who consume them to survive is more essential to society than hoarding resources until they rot. The obsession with ownership is petty bourgeois at best.
>>2695675The difference between personal and private property is made up, there's no clear line, the only difference between a toothbrush and a factory is that nobody gives a shit about a toothbrush and doing economic calculations on individual toothbrushes are infeasible.
But in principle, under communism you wouldn't be entitled to a toothbrush either. If it turns out that some specific material or tool in the manufacturing of toothbrushes has a shortage and needs to be allocated elsewhere, it's entirely feasible that toothbrushes will stop being manufactured.
Or if for some contrived reason it becomes extremely important to distribute toothbrushes elsewhere, it's totally possible that toothbrushes will be expropriated just like houses.
It's possible, but not probable, because nobody gives a fuck about toothbrushes.
>>2695679>Why should workers give a shit about "owning a house"security, equity, legacy, utility
think of it this way, what stops a landlord from evicting a family? nothing. can a homeowner evict himself? only if he gets the equity of the property in return. here's a better question - if the worker is NOT ALLOWED to own his property, then who does own it?
>In this case it's also impossible to tell how much a worker is "getting out" of walking on a public road, such a calculation is pointless.but where does food, shelter and so on come into it? you are just describing the existing public sector.
>In other words, humans become finally free to determine how to manage societycan humans decide to allow for personal home ownership? if NOT, then what is deciding this?
>>2695683why cant workers own their own home? who decides?
>>2695691no you don't understand. the nurses just want to own the catheters and IV bags LOL
>>2695695>You don't own a factory to survive. You own a factory to profit from the labor of the people who begged to get a job there. It's the difference between C-M-C exchange and M-C-M' exchange.are houses means of production?
>>2695693I told you Marx says no private property, but under some AES like North Korea, property is enshrined in the constitution. Why can't you accept that answer?
>>2695689>security, equity, legacy, utilitywhat kind of bourgie nonsense is this?
>>2695698>Marx saysso its ?arx is deciding?
what if the workers disagree with marx?
>>2695697>are houses means of production?to George Washington it is. To George Workaton it is not.
>>2695701is George Workaton allowed to own his own home, then?
>>2695699if workers arent allowed to own homes, who decides?
>>2695704>so be itso workers could possibly own their own homes, then?
>>2695700They'll have to make a better argument for why they're correct, and demonstrate in practice that it works better.
Ultimately everything is subordinated to to the authority of Reason, that we can grasp by studying the world.
It's not that marx decides, it's just that if marx is correct, the correct thing is correct regardless of whether who said it.
Read engels dialectics of nature
Read lenin's materialism and empiro-criticism
Read lenin's conspectus on hegel
Read mao's where do correct ideas come from
>>2695703>is George Workaton allowed to own his own home, then?In the current system? only if he makes enough money to pay off mortgage and interest. Under communism? He is allowed to live occupy his home until he moves into a different one or dies, but he is not allowed to own it or derive profit from it.
>>2695703>if workers arent allowed to own homes, who decides?Wait so workers now own the homes under capitalism?
>>2695705in North Korea and China they often do. What do you want?
>>2695705under developed communism, no
Under the socialist transitional period, depends on the particular circumstances of any given country, time and economic situation, which one will get us to communism without fucking up along the way.
But it's not guaranteed. If circumstances change and it becomes necessary to expropriate the houses, it will have to be done.
>>2695706>They'll have to make a better argument for why they're correctagainst whom? i thought the workers ruled themselves. or is someone besides workers in charge?
>if marx is correctits not a scientific question, its a political question.
>can workers own their own homes?<"marx says no">okay… so marx gets one voteno?
>>2695708>workers cant own their own homeswhy not? and who decides?
>>2695710so… yes, workers can own their own homes?
>>2695712who decides that workers cant own their own homes?
>>2695293Wrong. Everything you say is wrong because. Amerikans stole the gas. All gas amerikans have was stolen. All oil. All gas. All things. All things amerikan have is stolen
>>2695714>against whom?Against reality
>its not a scientific question, its a political question.politics is a science
>who decides that workers cant own their own homes?The workers themselves, in one sense. In another sense, the circumstances decide, because if they fuck up their policy strategy, they'll fuck up their society.
"Freedom is insight into necessity". That is, freedom is not about deciding to do whatever you want, freedom is about understanding the world, and having the tools necessary to change it.
Freedom is not about doing whatever you want, someone who is truly free to do whatever he wants is a naked man in the wilderness who will freeze to death in 3 hours.
A truly free individual is someone who doesn't have to die from dysentery
>>2695706>Ultimately everything is subordinated to to the authority of Reasonadvanced spookery
Prices are still fuk’d, ai is a bubble, ICE is rampaging, and Trump’s trying to pass the most repressive voting ID bill in the country. I’m absolutely certain that the lead up to midterms is gonna be filled with political violence.
>>2695293amerikan says imperialism does not make their gas cheap. They then explain why imperialism make their gas cheap failing to mention the trillions of gallons stolen past 6 month
>>2695645Bolshevik support was strongest among factory, why are straight up lying?
>>2695721and yet you're using reason to claim this :^)
>>2695726im using my fingers to type this actually
>>2695720>The workers themselves decideokay, so if the workers decide to allow themselves to own homes, no one could stop them? not even "marx"?
>A truly free individual is someone who doesn't have to die from dysenterydoes a wage worker owning a house after a 25 year mortgage cause people to die from dysentery?
>>2695722Do you have any real wage data to prove if amerikan lives are actually getting worse? Real median wage indexed to bread loaf shows amerikans get cheaper bread despite nominal cost increase
>>2695728>okay, so if the workers decide to allow themselves to own homes, no one could stop them? not even "marx"?Yeah, I mean the USSR abolished itself and became a shithole full of child prostitutes overnight, so yeah, nobody is stopping them, just like nobody is stopping you from slamming your penis with the car door right now.
>does a wage worker owning a house after a 25 year mortgage cause people to die from dysentery?Quite literally yes. See: america.
>>2695728your turn to answer a question. is it more important for a person to own food or eat food?
>>2695730there's more to it than bread. rents are going up as a portion of wages.
>>2695731>yesokay, so the only proper answer to the question of "can workers own their own homes in a communist society" is "yes - if the workers decide so".
this appears to contradict previous comments from your comrades that a worker cannot own their own home in a communist society (unconditionally), so it just leaves me a bit confused why theres all these different answers to a basic question.
>>2695733you have to own food to eat it, since otherwise youre stealing it.
>>2695731The caveat is that other workers might try to stop them because they don't want their daughters to get sex trafficked.
And your autism handler might stop you from approaching a car for the safety of your penis.
Who is more free, a schizophrenic who cuts his own face off because the aliens told him to , or one who gets forcefully treated?
>>2695736see how you went from "it's a yes or no question just answer it!!!!!!" to now becoming le gentlement of nuanced answers yourself? I gave you an alternative and you rejected the two alternatives and gave me an answer that was neither of the alternatives.
>you have to own food to eat it, since otherwise youre stealing it.under capitalism, yes. under communism, you just eat food. you don't own it.
>>2695736Because it would no longer be communism then, and the new landlords would no longer be workers.
Mixing up cause and effect there
Society sucks, people aren’t meant to be organized past communities of maybe 100, that’s the amount of names you can keep in your head anyway. No more society, tear it all down.
>but that’s reactionary
Don’t care, I want primitive communism, it’s the only communism that’s ever actually existed. Marx was a zionist anyway.
>>2695738>Who is more free, a schizophrenic who cuts his own face off because the aliens told him to , or one who gets forcefully treated?freedom to act unwisely is the former freedom.
freedom from harm is the the latter freedom.
you have juxtaposed two different forms of freedom and asked which is more free. That is besides the point. Freedom from harm is better for society than freedom to act unwisely.
>>2695740>you dont own itso "personal property" doesnt exist in communism either? who owns my toothbrush?
>>2695741>it would no longer be communismokay, so communism cant be when workers rule themselves, so what is it?
>>2695741You’re not a landlord just by owning a house, you have to rent it out or rent at least a room to be a landlord. Jesus christ.
>>2695743I agree, with the caveat that the former freedom is abstract and illusory and doesn't exist in practice and has never existed.
>>2695742>Society sucks, people aren’t meant to be organized past communities of maybe 100, that’s the amount of names you can keep in your head anyway. No more society, tear it all down.welcome back maggie
>people aren’t meant to be organized past communities of maybe 100, that’s the amount of names you can keep in your headperson A knows person B
person B knows person C
person C knows person D
[…]
person Y knows person Z
person A and person Z don't know each other but it doesn't matter because they're connected by a network. that is society.
This is all ridiculous when you know communism is the abolition of the working class, none of our lives are supposed to be defined by work by time we get there.
>>2695752The only actual human beings on this earth are in the Amazon and North Sentinel Island, only they have a sustainable lifestyle and future, industry is poison, nation states are poison. Marx calling these things progressive proves his zionism and fake opposition.
>>2695697Strictly speaking no since you cant really use them to produce commodities, but they could still be private property if they are used for commercial purposes (e.g. flipping, renting, etc.) Socialist countries typically had higher rates of home ownership anyways.
>>2695756anprims are giga retards
>>2695756go be naked in the woods then and stop posting
>>2695760They’re correct
>>2695762Only if you come with me
>>2695753>none of our lives are supposed to be defined by work by time we get there.no?
marx says labour will be "life's prime want":
<In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm>>2695757so personal property doesnt exist in communism?
>>2695758>Socialist countries typically had higher rates of home ownership anyways.so when workers gain political power they choose to own their homes?
>>2695748Communism is when no classes. The fact that when there are no classes, no class rules is just a consequence of that.
If workers decide to bring back land ownership, then they have created a class of land owners who now rule them.
Analogy under capitalism: you are free to sign a contract that says you can no longer sign any other contract with a competitor.
You were free to sign a contract, and then freely became unfree to sign a contract. The whole time, you ruled yourself.
>>2695765>so when workers gain political power they choose to own their homes?Yes, which is why anybody who tells you that owning a house that you personally reside in disqualifies you from being a proletarian is an idiot.
>>2695766>The fact that when there are no classes, no class rules is just a consequence of that.so who is in charge, then?
>>2695769The absolute spirit
>>2695768You can use the equity of your house for more credit, having access to credit makes you bourgeois but everyone with am address gets dozens of credit card offers in the mail a month so no one is proletarian anyway
>>2695748>who owns my toothbrush?the toothbrush is collective consumptive property. it comes into your possession as a result of a claim on the collective stock of social products. you have control of it, and can exclude others from its use in as much as you have exclusive need of it. you cannot sell it. you have no title of ownership over it.
>>2695770sounds religious. i thought communists were atheists.
>sabo still trying to pysop people into thinking middle class treatlerites are proletarians
lol
>>2695772Would you use a used toothbrush?
>>2695774Are Chinese workers who own their homes (at a much higher rate than American workers do) bourgeois?
>>2695773it's obviously a facetious answer because you've been JAQing off for 100 posts while you slowly try to get people into the homesteading principle, Smith Anon. I wonder how much of /usapol/ knows about your prior exploits.
>>2695771>having access to credit makes you bourgeoisTurns out the desperately poor third world countries getting IMF loans were the real bourgeoisie all along.
>>2695774Any time workers organize themselves for higher wages and win they become middle class treatlers, this is why Marx was wrong about the proletariat being a revolutionary class
>>2695768Ackschually home ownership under xapitalism and socialism are different legal constructs and not comparable.
Socialist home ownership is more like "ownership for use", not ownership of property in the bourgeois srnse.
It's more limited in that you're not allowed to speculate with it as an asset for example
>>2695775not if i didn't have to. that's exactly why the problem of who owns a toothbrush after the abolition of private property is a stupid question to begin with.
>>2695778Something something micro credit peasant suicides
>>2695775nobody is going to use a used toothbrush. you're missing the point. you get to use a toothbrush, then throw it out when it's done. you don't get a title of legal ownership or to profit from selling it. you are playing dumb on purpose
>>2695772>it comes into your possession as a result of a claim on the collective stock of social products. you have control of it, and can exclude others from its use in as much as you have exclusive need of it. you cannot sell it. you have no title of ownership over it.you are describing ownership but saying its not ownership. if i claim something in my possession, and have the rights to exclude its use, it is taken out of the commons and becomes my private property. also, where does "personal property" come into this?
>>2695777who is actually in charge in a communist society?
why does it take so long to get simple answers?
>>2695781>Socialist home ownership is more like "ownership for use", not ownership of property in the bourgeois srnse.So then how is a person that owns one house that they live in bourgeois?
>>2695780you should be throttled
>>2695778Yes, their states taking imf loans are bourgeois states, where's the contradiction?
>>2695788The contradiction is that usury is inherently exploitative and plays a major role in trapping both people and entire nations in poverty. Declaring that access to credit makes you bourgeois when it's more often than not a source of further immiseration is beyond ridiculous.
>>2695787I only speak the truth, workers have way too much to lose, capitalism is flexible to the point of being an evolutionary dead end. Any time workers win, they lose and are no longer workers. You can divide workers endlessly along so many different axes it’s impossible for them to coordinate or even form a unified political line.
>>2695780i think the problem here is liberal democracy becoming too efficient at appesing the movement more than proletarians not being the revolutionary class but yeah
>>2695785>you are describing ownership but saying its not ownership.I am describing to you what current legal elements of ownership remain from the individual's perspective in collective ownership and which elements are abolished along with private ownership. the main thing is to be rid of the right to disposition, namely the right to sell as commodity.
>also, where does "personal property" come into this?it doesn't come into my analysis, hence why i didn't use the term.
>>2695792Workers themselves want to be middle class or rich, not live in communism
>>2695793if i have the right of exclusive use, how is this not a form of property?
>the main thing is to be rid of the right to disposition, namely the right to sell as commodity.if two workers decide to voluntarily sell things to each other, who is the third party which intervenes and penalises them? clearly you have invoked a legal concept, so then its the state which decides how things go. but WHO is in charge of the state? we havent quite got to this yet. i thought it was workers, but apparently not.
>it doesn't come into my analysisbut arent you just reproducing the dichotomy anyway?
>>2695792In the long run its a moot point because capitalism's need for growth always outstrips its ability to provide it, forcing them to claw back any concessions they've granted. You can't believe in the possibility of a permanent compromise between labour and capital without rejecting basically the entirety of Marx's analysis of how capitalist economies work. Eventually it reaches a point where its not capable of sustaining any further compromise or concessions.
Revolutions only happen in semi feudal semi colonial countries that don’t have established liberal democracies, there isn’t a single instance of wokers overthrowing a liberal democracy, on the contrary communists always rally to the defense of liberal democracy against “fascism” and “imperialism” because organizing legally is the only thing they know how to do.
>>2695786Because they can still use it as a speculative asset under capitalism.
Like how afactory manager in socialism and an early industrialist who manages his factory, pays himself a managers salary and reinvests the rest into the factory have identical functions as far as *using* the factory goes, but it is the *potential* of the latter to sell, speculate and profit off the factory that makes them bourgeois.
The latter is quite a close description of a petty booj, so no surprise that you think that petty boojs are "proletarians", being one yourself
>>2695801Doesn’t matter if you can no longer compromise because there’s a thousand other means of counter insurgency
>>2695789Does the USs trillions of debt make them "exploited"? What about every corporation that is always in debt to some bank or another corporation?
Debt is just a financial tool, why are you mystifying what amounts to a ledger?
>>2695809
Almost like they’re just fickle and thinking of them as revolutionary is stupid
>>2695797>Workers themselves want to be middle class or richwhat the masses of workers want at a given moment can change drastically in a few years
>>2695735>>2695735Wrong. Nominal Rents are down YoY nationally.
https://www.apartmentlist.com/research/national-rent-dataSo the real wage growth amerikans have obtained from imperialism is understated in fact
>>2695799You have a right to use, not to profit off of it, because profit is appropriation of other peoples time, therefore making those you exploit less free.
Are workers free not to be profited off of? Why do you keep centering to hypothetical exploiter and not the hypothetical exploited?
>>2695804If i work a job long enough I get a 401k that I can borrow against same as home equity, am I only proletarian for the first six months of having a job?
>>2695814Almost like calling them revolutionary is dumb
>>2695816So those of us who are actually class conscious fully support imperialism, good to know
>>2695818You never been one because you had a job that paid enough not only to reproduce your existence but also accumulate reserves
Are ceos proletarian? Are sports stars?
>>2695822Yes, the bourgeoisie have class consciousness, duh.
>>2695823I’m a fucking steel factory worker, I got a 401k after 9 months and health insurance after a year
>>2695823If you look at value generated vs salary Lebron James, Christiano Ronaldo, Messi, and Shohei Otani are the most exploited people of all time despite the millions thrown their way
>>2695804>Because they can still use it as a speculative asset under capitalism.You can do that with practically everything. There's a thriving collectors market for Disney VHS tapes from the 90s. They can sell for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Does owning them make you bourgeois? What about baseball cards, beanie babies, rare coins, WW2 memorabilia, antique furniture? All of these could serve as speculative assets. Simply having these things doesn't negate your proletarian class character unless you're drawing your livelihood from them.
>>2695808I'm not mystifying anything. I'm just saying it's absurd to call somebody bourgeois just because they have access to credit when debt has historically been one of the main tools of justifying exploitation. Who knew that indentured servants were actually members of the ruling class?
>>2695823>because you had a job that paid enough not only to reproduce your existence but also accumulate reservesCan you tell me why having reserves alters your position in the relations of production? How does it eliminate the class antagonism between yourself and your employer? How does it eliminate their imperative of maximizing the surplus value they extract from you?
>>2695825So anyone in the US with a job is only a prole for the probationary period
>>2695817>you have a right to usenot just a right to use, but a right to exclusive use by the extraction of an item from the commons, converting it into a form of property.
>profitdoes barter create profit?
also, who is in charge of the communist state?
>>2695799>if i have the right of exclusive use, how is this not a form of property?it is a form of property. collective property like I've been saying. your right to exclusive use isn't because you have an individuated title of ownership, it's because you have a claim against the total social product predicated on demonstrated and democratically recognized social need.
>if two workers decide to voluntarily sell things to each other, who is the third party which intervenes and penalises them?what are they going to sell? and what are they going to buy it with? the means of production are collectivized, and there is no money. claims on social product are non-transferable. any black market commodity trade would have to be done in barter.
>WHO is in charge of the state? we havent quite got to this yet. i thought it was workers, but apparently not.there is no state. a state is an instrument of class domination. there are no classes in communist society, therefore no material basis for a state. leaving aside semantics, my answer is that workers organize and administer communist society democratically. so yes, it would be the workers.
>but arent you just reproducing the dichotomy anyway?not to my mind, no. if the phrase has meaning to you, by all means use it. i personally see no theoretical use for it. seems just to muddy the waters.
No matter how much you guys post i will never be convinced that i have same class interests as the ceo of haliburton,
Like in these peoples mind the ceo of haliburton calls the president and is like
> what country do we invade so we can get people who work part time at walmart cheaper gasoline
The elite dont see other people as human even american citizens.
>>2695830>imperative of maximizing the surplus value they extract from you?Surplus is extracted from third worlders, westetn workers consume above the value they produce, becausr they're the global management class.
Just like how the board of directors, the ceo, the VC and HR are all on the same team
Friends friends! There is no need to fight over the potential for a revolutionary change that isn't coming. Sit back and enjoy the collapse.
>>2695830People with the things you mentioned have more to lose than their chains, a proletariat is someone with
NOTHING TO LOSE BUT THEIR CHAINS, that’s why I came to the conclusion long ago that the proletariat doesn’t exist and hasn’t existed outside of European captials in Marx’s time
>>2695839>Surplus is extracted from third worlders, westetn workers consume above the value they produceProve it.
>>2695837>agrees with the Nazis that German workers and German capitalists have the same interestsThe german workers also agreed, hdnce why the raped their way across eurasia for lebensraum
>>2695835Wow people were racist in 1800s i am really a piece of shit you showed me
>>2695839Bro I’m a factory worker, I’m not managing shit
>>2695844>The german workers also agreedThat must be why the Nazis only ever got 1/3 of the vote, and had to ban the worker's parties and trade unions, and throw all their leaders into concentration camps. That must also be why they cut wages and benefits and privatized a bunch of stuff.
>>2695844The nazi party only ever received a plurality of support, never a majority, and the people that voted for them were petit bourgeois, land owning farmers, and foremen
It is quite strange (To someone that isn't me) that the collapse of people's respect for zoomer men happened right. Nobody really gives a shit about them as a demographic, there is no particular think pieces or even much sympathy given to them from both republicans and democrats and their various political cadres. Like last year everything was about the male loneliness pandemic or whatever the fuck but now nobody gives a shit about it.
Quite frankly I think that zoomer men will prove to be even more cringe than Millennials, at the very least being into more obscure media is a pretty honorable thing but zoomer male obsession with sale charts, steam charts and other metrics of popularity gives away just how phony they were. Maybe millennials were also phony but that fakery was in being more abstract and intelligent than they are. Zoomer men fake being masculine when even your average soyboy is more manly than your average zoomer and they have to take steroids to even gain muscles
>>2695850Until you have power you’re nobody, the strong do as they will and the weak will suffer as they must? Want to change this? Get strong
>>2695848and used literal slave labor
>>2695836>it is a form of property>collective property>your right to exclusive useits either collectively owned or is personally owned. make up your mind. i thought communists supported "personal property", but suddenly theres all these mental gymnastics.
>you have a claimyes… a claim to the right of exclusive use; e.g. ownership
>claims on social product are non-transferable. any black market commodity trade would have to be done in barter.is barter allowed?
>there is no state […] so yes, it would be the workersare workers not a class? and again, you say workers are in charge, so how can you know what the workers want?
>seems just to muddy the waters.its better than saying "no one will own anything, but [people will own things]." you seem confused.
>>2695837Are you understanding now why a communist revolution in the imperial core is an impossibility? Your “communist” parties agree with the Nazis on all major policy points except the precise definition of who gets to benefit from the imperial loot
>>2695838Well yes, there's class antagonisms between petty bourgs and haute bourgs, but neither are proletarian.
But even if you don't believe it, just look at the facts: trump, aoc, mamdani, rubio, Clinton, obama, bernie, biden, peter thiel, every ceo, every gusano and the average american voter all agree on the US foreign policy. That's shared class interest right there
>>2695853I generally agree with this yeah.
>>2695857Communist revolution has proven impossible in the third world too, how many decades of running around in the jungle do CPPNPA m, Naxals, and ELN have to do? The liberal democracy founded by Nepali Maoists got overthrown without any resistance.
> chagos poster
Lives somewhere were he has access to more government services and lower violent crimethan many in the usa
> yanqui chimp poster
Lives in japan
> felix
Lives in portland oregon will never do any of things he advocates for
Who else am i missing?
>>2695849And the vast majority of the German proletariat lined up to commit genocide on Russians the moment they got the opportunity to
>>2695848>>269584930% is quite enough
I mean the 10% bourgeoisie rule with an iron fist, a class doesn't have to be a majority to rule
>>2695858Over 40% of Americans don’t vote at all
>>2695864>a family with less than $192,000 is in the bottom 50%burger stats be like
>>2695850I've been expecting a rebound to come by means of re-instate mandatory military service and leaving that as the only socially rewarding expression of "masculinity". Eventually the USA will have to do that, even if the cold war is mostly fought by proxies. Someone has to occupy allies, man the military industry and crush the inevitable revival of the labor movement as they squeeze the workers to keep the profits up during all of that.
>>2695861100 million members of the CPC might disagree with you, but we both know the golden billion only considers their glowie terrorist groups aka “Maoists” to be the real movement in the periphery
>average american voter all agree on the US foreign policy
Most people were against the invasion of venezuela
Most people wanted an end to tge gaza genocide
We live in oligarchy where we are not asked.
>>2695842World economy is a closed system in equklibrium.
Average global monthly salary is ~$2000 usd. Westerners work the least hours and earn most.
Therefore, anyone who earns more than 2k a month is a net appropriator of the rest's labor time
>>2695813>>2695819the revolutionary character of the proletariat has nothing to do with their subjective convictions, it resides exactly in this "fickleness" you mention, which is rooted in their economic conditions, they are volatile because they are desperate and have nothing to lose, but together have the leverage of being the ones who basically keep the entire system going on
but all this potential goes nowhere if the communist party either doesnt exist or is not up to the task for whatever reason
>>2695801>You can't believe in the possibility of a permanent compromise between labour and capitalwell yeah when capitalism finally finishes destroying the world and everyone dies then the compromise wont be possible anymore
>>2695867It’s not possible or desirable to bring back the draft, most Americans are either too fat or too mentally ill for military service and if you did it makes foreign policy have a tangible effect beyond what commodities are available and that’s a big no no, you don’t want a repeat of fragging in Vietnam
>>2695869If they were against either of those things they wouldn’t have happened. Most of America’s capacity to rape and exploit the imperial periphery is sustained by a small handful of factories, even one of them being sabotaged could have saved Palestine from genocide. Yet despite being repeatedly begged, BEGGED by people of Gaza as their children were being turned into red mist by American weapons to open a second front, all you did was vandalize some coffee shops and organized orgies among wealthy college students. There’s a fine line between stupidity and active complicity and you’ve long crossed it
>>2695857>Your “communist” parties agree with the Nazis on all major policy points except the precise definition of who gets to benefit from the imperial lootWhich Westerj communist parties support imperialism?
>>2695842>>2695827Let's do some math just for funsies. I also worked in the steel industry for a while. At my last steel job I was at the final stage of the production line, packaging coils the coils for shipping. I got paid $23/h to do this, and on average I probably completed about 5 coils every hour (on average). According to DeepSeek, the dollar value of the sort of coils we were working with (roughly 20mt automotive grade steel) was about $20k a piece (rounding down) meaning that I processed $100k worth of merchandise every hour. The plant had around 50 people per shift, and assuming uniform productivity, this means that each worker produced about $2k worth of revenue every hour. Since I got paid $23/h, I generated $1977 worth of profits for my employer each hour I worked. I'm quite certain I didn't consider more than I produced.
>>2695875PFLP and hamas called for protests and civil action and an awareness campaign and that’s what they got
>>2695875I bet you live in 1st world and havent done any of that either
>>2695878They begged for direct action and you sat on your hands and watched them die
>>2695871>Therefore, anyone who earns more than 2k a month is a net appropriator of the rest's labor timeNot if they produce more than $2k of commodities in a month. You can't look at hours worked exclusively because that takes no account of productivity differences caused by varying levels of automation and industrial development. The only test of whether or not a person is exploited is whether they can buy what they produce in an hour with their hourly wage. If they can't then they're exploited because they are being paid less than the value of what they produce.
>>2695875how many factories you blew up bro
>>2695865In other words about 60% of americans share class interest with peter thiel
>>2695883Sure Langley, let me just fax you my home address too while I’m at it
>>2695881No they didn’t, they called for BDS, the Palestine movement has been against military actions outside of historic Palestine since the disasters surrounding Abu Nidal and Carlos the Jackal
>>2695887Lets just assume 0 like felix
>>2695884And the remaining 40% aspire to share class interests with Peter Thiel
>>2695890>>2695884> voting changes your class characterMost marxist 3rd worldists everyone
>>2695888I must have missed the part where Hamas told you that wealthy college students setting up camps full of sex and drugs would be vital to their struggle against Zionism
>>2695893They did, they called those in the university sit ins “people of the free world”
>>2695856>its either collectively owned or is personally owned. it's your precept that exclusionary use of individual consumptive means is an element of "personal ownership" as opposed to collective ownership, not mine.
>yes… a claim to the right of exclusive use; e.g. ownershipwe are in agreement on this point. you just disagree with the way i'm saying it. you are a part of the collective which owns the toothbrush. in that capacity, you are enabled to requisition what means of consumption you need from the total social product. your control of these means of consumption are conditioned upon terms dictated by the collective democratically. no ideologically committed natural rights proprietarian would ever recognize what i'm proposing as a simple recapitulation of bourgeois property relations.
>are workers not a class?when everyone is a worker, it ceases to be a class. that's why we say that communism is the end of historical class society, because by bringing everyone into one class, there are no other classes to either rule or be ruled by, thus ending class antagonisms and class society as such.
>is barter allowed?maybe, maybe not. it would probably be on a case by case basis. the limiting factor here is that all productive means and natural wealth are collectively owned. people would just be bartering with goods requisitioned from collective storehouses. hoarding and arbitrage would be signs of systemic collapse, because it means the public economy is failing to meet social needs, which is the primary object of economy under communism.
>its better than saying "no one will own anything, but [people will own things]."maybe you would have a point if I said that, but I did not. I said property is collectivized. private property is abolished. simple as.
>you seem confused.no u
>>2695874>you don’t want a repeat of fragging in VietnamVietnam had orders of magnitude more casualties than Iraq. And Iraq/gulf war was perfectly able to practically raze the place and set up MENA for half a century of misery.
The USA just needs bodies to *manage* the military, the local collaborators who do most of the fighting, and occupy it's allies(the maintenance of which is paid by said allies). The USA just needs bodies, not fighters.
And the military is a very nice alternative to re-distributive policies that will eventually be in high demand.
>>2695893I mean considering how much they were repressed if they campus protests were nothing how come they didnt just let proformative do nothing orgy fizzle on its own?
>>2695893Hamas and the PFLP issued a number of statements thanking people for the displays of solidarity and demonstrations. Do you actually listen to what third world revolutionaries say or do you just close your eyes and pretend they agree with you?
>>2695882Productivity doesn't affect wages according to marx.
Third world office workers are using the same computers and phones for work as american managers. Third world proles use westetn made equipment. The oil refineries in kazakhstan were built by siemens and lockheed or whatever else, operated by local workers.
Value is measured in labor time.
To say that you "deserve" higher wages because your employer gave you a more advsnced tool despite doing thevsame 8 hours is nonsensical petty bourg mentality.
A better argument would be to highlight the difference in cost of reproduction. But "reproduction" for a first world worker means a 401k, a car, and benefits of accumulated social capital. For a third worlder it means a t shirt and a roof.
You are usingbthe same reasoning as to why capitalists "deserve" their surplus
>>2695896Vietnam was also the last war fought by US conscripts, people that didn’t volunteer to be there
>>2695899But have they condemned chinese imperialists?
>>2695900Reproduction in the US does necessarily mean a car and a pension of some sort, even the highly automated factory jobs we do have break your body down, you can’t continue that type of labor until you die, though two thirds of my coworkers are trying. I’m sure you’re preemptively sick of anyone bitching about car dependent infrastructure.
>>2695869They say whatever.
In practice they guilt trip you into voting for "socialist" mamdani who said some vague pro palestine things, but when elected and starts being mask off zionist, they no longer care because they got their bodega subsidies
>>2695895>it's your precept that exclusionary use of individual consumptive means is an element of "personal ownership" as opposed to collective ownership, not mine.okay, so define the difference between personal property and collective property for me.
>your control of these means of consumption are conditioned upon terms dictated by the collective democraticallyso if i want a toothbrudh i have to gain the consent of 8 billion people?
>when everyone is a worker, it ceases to be a classokay, so what does being a "worker" mean, then?
>thus ending class antagonisms and class society as such.okay, so who is actually in charge? do we need 8 billion votes to get planning permits for public parks?
>maybe, maybe not. it would probably be on a case by case basiswho decides? workers, or the state? see how there is an inherent difference to be politically considered?
>maybe you would have a point if I said that, but I did notyou must then determine the difference in definition
>>2695900>Third world office workers are using the same computers and phones for work as american managers. Third world proles use westetn made equipment. The oil refineries in kazakhstan were built by siemens and lockheed or whatever else, operated by local workers.So you're denying that there is a difference in industrial development between the first and third world? You're claiming that uneven development doesn't exist?
>Value is measured in labor timeYes but surplus value is the difference between output and compensation. If your output is higher than your compensation, then you are a victim if exploitation. If a burger flipper can't buy the number of burgers they make in an hour with an hour's wages, they are being exploited. How could it be any different? Without this relationship there is no profit. If first world workers weren't exploited then every commercial undertaking in the West would lose money.
>To say that you "deserve" higher wages because your employer gave you a more advsnced tool despite doing thevsame 8 hours is nonsensical petty bourg mentality.I didn't say that. I'm saying that higher productivity caused by greater automation means that workers in more developed countries can be paid much more even if they are exploited at the same rate.
>>2695899Not to be too cynical but when the Palestinian resistance eventually concedes to the ghastly deals in front of them, at the point of a gun. Will that too be a valid standpoint? If the USA makes them accept the unelected rule of the PA forever and sign on to the re-settlement of Gaza and disarmament. Will that too be "listening to third world revolutionaries"?
Did they accept because it is reasonable (and say so, in writing) or because the entire world guaranteed that that their wholesale extermination would be an acceptable outcome nobody would do anything about?
>>2695907I don't see how those two things are related at all. Nothing compelled Palestinian resistance forces to thank the international displays of solidarity. They did it because they genuinely appreciated it. How is that in any way comparable to being forced to accept a deal when the alternative is extermination?
>>2695869Burgers can't even point to those spots on a map. Most cheer on the murder of third worlders for cheaper funk pops
>>2695903Well yeah, wealth doesn't mean QoL. In fact, better public infrastructure & services and QoL *reduces* the value of assets.
That's the tragedy of it all, americans rape the world and waste humanity's labor time for shitty cardboard houses, thirsty lawns, 4 hours of commute a day, mexiocre healthcare, shit infrastructure, etc. Flushing human lives down the toilet.
But they don't want public housing or public transport or public hospitals because they might have to see a uyghur, so they clutch their gilded pillories with genocidal fervor, because at least the pillory is their private property.
>>2695910Shrodinger's burger: simultaneously so ignorant they can't find the countries they're bombing, but also has a sophisticated grasp of global imperialist economics over which Marxist economists can't even agree.
>>2695910Here’s where you’re wrong, the US people who are completely ignorant about a place would rather leave it alone, it’s those who are at least half educated or college educated who are the aggressive imperialists
>>2695913Yes these contradictions are resolving as we speak.
The US is fucked.
>>2695916People thought this in the 70s, they thought this in the 30s, until a military coup or canceled elections happens I’m skeptical
>>2695914trvth samson option
>>2695905>okay, so define the difference between personal property and collective property for me.i don't think the term "personal property" as distinguished from private property is very meaningful in the first place. that's why it's you insisting on using it, not me.
>so if i want a toothbrudh i have to gain the consent of 8 billion people?some level of international democracy would be involved in setting socially necessary standards of living which would form the basis of the collective plan for allocation and distribution by which you would receive your claim on the toothbrush, yes.
>okay, so what does being a "worker" mean, then?a human that does labor to produce socially necessary product.
>okay, so who is actually in charge? do we need 8 billion votes to get planning permits for public parks?there would undoubtedly be some level of federalism. trying to answer these questions with any degree of certitude is utopian.
>who decides? workers, or the state?workers. there is no state.
>you must then determine the difference in definitionsee above.
>>2695906I'm saying the difference is exaggerated. Not every western worker is an engineer at a chip fab. Some of them dig ditches but still earn a lot.
And hoarding technology *is* an imperial policy, it's deliberate. Its part of the weztetn priveleges.
Besides, the west owning the advanced technology doesn't necessarily mean its all westetn workers using the technology. The west owns mines in africa, with all the advanced equipment. African workers use those machines. Ssme with patents snd copyright. The chinese manufacture electronics, west owns the IP
>workers in more developed countries can be Can be.
There is no mechanism in capital that makes this a direct economic necessity to make surplus, its6 a political necessity to do so. Effectively it constitutes a voluntary handout on part of the capitalists, a bribe
Chinese workers have the tech capacity to produce a bajillion electronic circuits a second on their epic factories. The western procurrment office worker who places the order on their 2012 dell office pc earns more than thrm.
Who is more productive?
>>2695919Not all contradictions resolve into revolution.
Instead of sharpening of contradictions we are seeing a bludgening of them. Dulling them until it reaches a pile of slop.
This slop empire we see is the land of young people klarnaing doordashed slop bowls and funk pops to their shitty jobs.
You won't see bullets in the street, you will see delivery drivers and Wendy's bags blowing jn the wind
>>2695921>cant define the difference between collective and personal propertyright, so we are only left with my definition
>some level of international democracy would be involved in […] your claim on the toothbrush, yes.so in other words, 8 billion people have to decide who gets a toothbrush. sounds very efficient! if only we had a bunch of central planners and distributors to allow for the collection of products by labour vouchers… but that seems too complicated for you.
>a worker is a human that does labor to produce socially necessary product.so who is everyone working for?
>there would undoubtedly be some level of federalismwow, we're finally getting somewhere. so a state apparatus would exist and would delegate authority and responsibility, including the superintendence of labour?
>workerswhat if workers wanted property, money and commodities? what if workers didnt want communism? would you see workers as your enemy?
>>2695923>And hoarding technology *is* an imperial policy, it's deliberateOf course but that's a separate question from whether the workers in imperialist countries are exploited.
>There is no mechanism in capital that makes this a direct economic necessity to make surplusYes there is. Without surplus a firm would be unprofitable and go out of business. Don't you realize how badly you have to butcher Marxism to get this third worldist nonsense to fly? You're here downplaying uneven development even though Lenin argued that this was the entire economic basis of imperialism. Now you're saying that profit is not an economic necessity under capitalism? Come on, you're denying this most basic principles of the Marxist analysis of capitalism here.
>>2695927>Who is more productive?That's an apples to oranges comparison since it's cutting across different occupations and industries. The answer is that the office worker can be more productive if their work contributes to a higher hourly output than the factory worker. What's your argument exactly, that somebody working at a computer can't be more productive than somebody working in a factory? Seems like you're basing it more on vibes than anything else. Anyways it's a increasingly a moot point since Chinese QoL has already surpassed the US in many areas and continues to do so.
>>2695938Reread it, I'm saying that there's no direct necessity to increase worker wages in response to higher productivity, because higher productivity *is* more surplus at the same work hours, the surplus is already captured, the labor time slready performed, the commodities produced already the property of the capitalist and being sold.
That already extracted surplus going back to the worker is a conscious political move by the capitalist
>>2695940It's neoliberal policy where you try to force homeowners to sell and downsize, putting more homes on the market, raising supply, lowering price. God forbid a social democrat implement iunno rent control.
>>2695935>right, so we are only left with my definitionyou haven't given any definition. you've said that communists are always talking about personal property, and for some reason i'm supposed to care. what i said is i don't see any distinction between personal property and private property. I reject private property. I've told you how I distinguish collective property from private property. it's for you to give me a definition that not only distinguishes personal property from private property, but also isn't covered by my definition of collective property. if you can't, then the term "personal property" is analytically meaningless for the purpose of this conversation.
>so in other words, 8 billion people have to decide who gets a toothbrush.no, 8 billion people do not have to be individually consulted for every individual economic transaction. you are being intentionally obtuse.
>so who is everyone working for?no individual person. your questions are all malformed.
>a state apparatus would exist and would delegate authority and responsibility, including the superintendence of labour?no, collective and delegated decision making by consensus and soritition is not inherently statist.
>what if workers wanted property, money and commodities? what if workers didnt want communism? would you see workers as your enemy?yeah. i advocate communism because i view it as the only mode of production consistent with continued human subsistence on the planet. i would view attempts at capitalist restoration as tantamount to attempted mass murder-suicide on a societal level.
>>2695944>Reread it, I'm saying that there's no direct necessity to increase worker wages in response to higher productivityOkay, but the fact that they isn't a necessity to do so doesn't mean these people aren't exploited. You're moving the goalposts. The original question was whether Western workers were victims of surplus value extraction.
>That already extracted surplus going back to the worker is a conscious political move by the capitalistYou're moving the goalposts. The original question was whether Western workers were victims of surplus value extraction. You argued that they were not, but now since its impossible to make that case without mangling Marxism beyond recognition, you're changing the subject. Yeah sure, Western capitalists may pay their workers more than they strictly need to, and in many cases this was a deliberate choice intended to pacify them (Henry Ford being a famous proponent of this). In most other cases these were hard won concessions that only came about because of decades of bloody struggle, and the ruling class expends huge effort to claw these wages and benefits back. In either case it doesn't alter the fundamental relations of production and the antagonisms contained therein. All it does is mitigate them, but it can only ever do so temporarily due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, and the need for capitalist growth always outstripping its capacity (which is also the main driving force behind imperialism). It's also correct that these concessions are only possible because of imperialism, however that just means workers need imperialism if they want to maintain both high wages and high profits for their bosses. What you are failing to demonstrate is why they should want the latter when their interests are still irreconcilably opposed in the long term. They could simply hang their bosses and still vastly improve their lives without imperialist superprofits.
Since the only definition of 'productivity" in marxism is surplus extracted, how does it even make sense to say that western workers earn more because they are more productive? This is contradictory. In fact, higher productivity should REDUCE the value of one's labor time.
This is like saying that western workers earn more because they earn more = they are more productive because they are more productive.
Substituting incompatible concepts.
Or are we using the proudhonist definition of "productive"?
What is the mechanism by which higher proportion of constant capital affects the value of variable capital?
>>2695940Didn't his approval rating spike from 48% to bein in the 60%?
>>2695956It's really simple Anon. Somebody who produces $10k worth of goods in an hour and is paid 5% of that will make a lot more money than somebody who only makes $2k worth of goods and is paid 5% of their output. They're both exploited at the same rate, but the difference in productivity (here referring to output per hour of SNLT) makes one much higher paid than the other.
>>2695909>Nothing compelled liberal
>>2695951>definitionproperty is when a person has exclusive rights to the use of something by its enclosure from the commons.
>no, 8 billion people do not have to be individually consulted for every individual economic transaction.okay, so this negates your previous comments. now tell me, how do i receive my toothbrush?
>no, collective and delegated decision making by consensus and soritition is not inherently statist.so again we return to the 8 billion member direct democracy. will some people have more power than others due to their elected positions?
>yeahokay, so you hate workers. say it loud and proud.
you are an enemy to the working class and their interests. they dont want communism but you do.
>>2695955The sleight of hand is that while western workers get their surplus extracted, the concessions they get more than make up for it, taken from the share of the surplus extracted from the third world.
While yes, locally in the firm western workers get exploited, the net effect after the bribes is that they accumulate.
I agree that this alliance is a temporary mitigation, but we don't have enough time for this contradiction to "naturally" resolve itself by class antagonism between western pacified workers and western bourgs, the planet is going to burn up before that.
In light of this I think a different tactic is needed. You can't play this game of advocating for workers to "stop being exploited at the firm" because they, in the short term, see it as a fair trade to receive their bribes later. They do have something to lose: their bribes.
So you have to agitate in a different manner: positioning them not as scammed workers, but as operators of a machine that's headed towards human extinction, this framing makes the bribes worthless, and centers the long term over the short term.
>>2695959But surplus isn't extracted in percentages, but in flat differences between cost of labor power and value produced. Capitalists don't say "oh, I'm going to pay 5% of my revenue to my workers", capitalists say "I'm going to pay the worker for 8 hours of labor time, and pocket the rest".
Isn't this the whole point of introducing the concept of labor-power, an innovation Marx made over ricardo and smith?
>>2695964What bribes are you talking about? There are third world countries with more robust social welfare systems than some Western ones, especially the US. Even the robust Western European welfare state is largely a thing of the past.
>They do have something to lose: their bribes.Are you saying that a socialist state would have a weaker system of welfare and benefits than a capitalist one?
>>2695966>Capitalists don't say "oh, I'm going to pay 5% of my revenue to my workers"Do you think capitalists don't calculate and budget for what percentage of revenue they intend to spend on labour?
you are going to war with Iran
Each day this thread is stupider than the previous
>>2695967Their bribes come in the form of gilded pillories.
Shitty cardboard houses in the middle of the desert with 1 mall and 10 parking lots that cost millions of dollars vs an apartment in an urban center with public transport and cultural centers etc.
Yes, the latter is more comfortable, higher QoL, but it is also worth less as an asset.
Same with personal cars vs public transport, and so on.
The problem with telling workers with such peasant consciousness that they're merely getting gypped by the capitalist is that they think "oh great, I'm going to fight the bourgeoisie so I can get the full value of my work so I can have a better cardboard house"
Tactically I think it's better to tell them that their properties and ideas of isolationist freedom and home ownership are crap, and it's better to fight for better QoL at reduced pay and reduced wealth. "You will own nothing and be happy", in a way, kek.
>>2695971They calculate the percentage after having already paid for X hours of labor time, then plan for next quarter. The order of operations is reverse.
>>2695976there has been a concerted effort to drown out any relevant conversation with meaningless bullshit
>>2695979yeah i noticed. you think people would get better at ignoring it
(clicked wrong post the first time)
>>2695963>property is when a person has exclusive rights to the use of something by its enclosure from the commons.that is one element of common law property rights. there are other elements. we have already been over this, despite how badly you want to make me repeat myself.
>okay, so this negates your previous comments.no it doesn't. you have made up a caricature to argue against which bears absolutely no resemblance to anything I've been saying.
>how do i receive my toothbrush?the toothbrush is a collectively owned social product. the plan says everyone is allotted x amount of social product to satisfy socially recognized basic needs. within this allotment, you are requisitioned y amount of toothbrushes for time period z. you take some form of personal identification to the storehouse, requisition your toothbrush, and it is deducted from the total social product as well as your individual claim on the social product.
>will some people have more power than others due to their elected positions?to some degree, maybe. i prefer soritition juries over elected representation, but my opinion is just that.
>okay, so you hate workersi am a worker. i oppose class society because i view it as opposed to my interests as a worker. if a critical mass of workers decided to voluntarily bring back class society, then i am opposed to that mass of workers. i am opposed to the workers today that uncritically support anti-communism.
>you are an enemy to the working class and their interests.sure.
>>2695955>that just means workers need imperialism if they want to maintain both high wages and high profits for their bosses.When you tell an american worker that, isn't it natural to conclude, "oh, we need to overthrow the haute bourgeoisie and set up cooperatives while maintaining imperialism so that we can get our surplus back AND benefit from imperialism"
Seems like a losing strategy.
https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/us-and-iran-just-weeks-away-from-conflict-1771435541.htmlUS and Iran just weeks away from conflict, Axios says
>The administration of US President Donald Trump could be on the brink of a large-scale war in the Middle East. Escalation could happen imminently — the timeline is counted in "weeks," Axios reports.
>According to the outlet, citing sources, a potential US military operation against Iran is being considered as a multi-week, large-scale campaign that would look more like a full-scale war rather than a limited strike.
>The actions are expected to be joint, involving Israel, and would significantly surpass previous episodes of confrontation, with serious consequences for the Iranian regime and the entire Middle East region.
>Such a development could impact the remaining years of the Trump presidency, while discussions in the US Congress and public space about potential intervention remain limited. The President himself is reportedly losing patience.
>In early January, Trump was close to deciding on a strike against Iran. However, after missing the window of opportunity, the White House shifted to a dual strategy — combining negotiations over Iran’s nuclear program with an increase in military presence.
>At the same time, prospects for a deal are considered unlikely. Presidential advisers Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff held talks in Geneva with Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi.
>Despite statements from both sides about some progress, key differences remain, and Washington has shown little optimism about overcoming them. Vice President JD Vance said the talks produced partial results, but Iran is not ready to agree to the key conditions of the US. >>2695985a losing strategy for the third world that is, but a winning one for the first world workers
This is why third worldists get triggered when western workers fight for "socialism in one country" and workerist benefits in a way that doesn't at all challenge imperialism, while pretending that such workerist measures will somehow "advance the cause of socialism" and "trickle down" to the third world, and that third worlders should cheer them on in their efforts.
But third worlders recognize that this is a betrayal of international solidarity.
>>2695987looking forward to the MLoid vs bordigger shitflinging threads when it happens
>>2695987BUT at the same time…
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/2/18/irans-araghchi-hails-good-progress-in-nuclear-talks-with-usIran says ‘good progress’ made in nuclear talks with US in Geneva
>Iranian Minister of Foreign Affairs Abbas Araghchi has said that “good progress” has been made in indirect nuclear talks with the United States, as Washington warned that military action remains an option if diplomacy fails.
>The talks, mediated by Oman, were held in the Swiss city of Geneva on Tuesday against a backdrop of increased military flexing by both sides in the Gulf region.
>“Ultimately, we were able to reach broad agreement on a set of guiding principles, based on which we will move forward and begin working on the text of a potential agreement,” Araghchi told state television after the talks.
>“Good progress” has been made, compared with the previous round in Oman earlier this month, he said, adding, “We now have a clear path ahead, which I think is positive.”
>He acknowledged that it “will take time to narrow” the gap between the countries, and said that once both sides come up with draft texts for an agreement, “the drafts would be exchanged and a date for a third round [of talks] would be set”.
>In Washington, DC, US Vice President JD Vance also appeared to indicate that his country preferred diplomacy, but painted a more mixed picture.
>“In some ways, it went well; they agreed to meet afterwards,” Vance said in a Fox News interview.
>“But in other ways, it was very clear that the president has set some red lines that the Iranians are not yet willing to actually acknowledge and work through,” Vance told The Story with Martha MacCallum programme.
>“We’re going to keep on working it. But of course, the president reserves the ability to say when he thinks that diplomacy has reached its natural end,” Vance said. >>2695991So there may be a chance that both are "true".
The last airstrike against Iran in 2025 was literally kayfabe, the USA and Iran agreed on everything ahead of time allowing Iran time to move their uranium out of the facilities. Then they allowed a symbolic strike from Iran into Qatari airspace and the USA base there (which was of course intercepted), and everyone clapped.
I wonder if they're trying to do the same thing again.
>>2695940>Tries to raise taxes on the wealthy<Governor says no>Raises property tax insteadHis decision to not endorse a primary challenge of the governor is showing itself to be tactically unsound—though I doubt that an increased property tax is going to hurt him all that much; I think most of the property owners in NYC wouldn’t be the people who voted for him in the first place.
Course a big problem is that Dems as a whole have a kind of battered-spouse syndrome. Their internal dynamics tend to prioritize “keeping the peace” and that’s also reflected in a lot of their primary votes. Just compare how Republican primaries are brutal slugfests vs Dems tripping over themselves to thank their opponents.
>>2695991i hope their minister of foreign affairs' optimism does not reflect the general attitude of the Iranian government. modern USA
is just like Nazi Germany. appeasement will not work. they need to understand this.
>>2695994 USA has moved so much military equipment to the vicinity of Iran, and activated so many pro-monarchy "protestors" around the world. Israel is exerting unprecedented pressure on the USA to do something
>>2695991What's the point of even trying to talk to the burger government.
>>2695983>that is one element of common law property rights. there are other elements. such as?
>i rent the toothbrush from a store using social creditoh, so like now, but even worse
>to some degree, maybedo you know what "delegation" means?
>if a critical mass of workers decided to voluntarily bring back class society, then i am opposed to that mass of workers. communism IS a class society. thats the big secret ive been trying to tease out. its when the government officials tell the public what they can own and what they can do. again, think about this for half a second - WHO decides all these stupid rules you keep bringing up? the bureaucracy; the intelligentsia, the vanguard, that you keep imagining yourself part of. you do not believe in worker democracy and you do not believe in freedom. as a friend of the working class, you are my enemy and an enemy of humanity.
>>2695994trying to smuggle my kayfabe past the Israelis, but I'm dummy thicc, and the clap of my asscheeks keeps alerting Mossad
>>2696000>communism IS a class society. thats the big secret ive been trying to tease out. why did you wait 200 posts to reveal this
>>2695994I saw something at the time saying that the missle landed and killed something expensive but who knows whats true anymore
>>2696000>muh democracy muh freedomMods ban this nafoid and gulag all his loved ones
>>2696000>communism is when gubbermint does stuff>stalin was world's richest man because he owned the whole USSR>new boss same as the old boss, literally 1984 big brother broliberals, man….
>>2695751>freedom from harm doesn't exist and never will… ok then go live in the woods naked like your ancestors 300,000 years ago. I'm sure that will be a safer state of affairs for you since safety from harm cannot exist
>>2696000anarchists proving themselves to be just as ardent anti-communists as fascists
what the fuck do you think a worker's democracy looks like in practice? do you imagine a complete lack of bureaucracy of all kinds? is bookkeeping and logistics unnecessary in anarkiddie land? your ideology is a complete joke with absolutely no historical precedent or even an empirical approach to analysis or problem solving.
YES COMMUNISM IS A CLASS SOCIETY
IT IS THE CLASS DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT OVER THE BOURGEOISIE
>>2696008What's up with this places reading comprehension man
>>2696009Ai ought to do most of the administration work. To think otherwise is outdated.
>>2696009DOTP is not communist mode of production. Communist mode of production is literally classless yes. You're both complete retards
>>2696000Socialism is when the government does stuff and when the government does a lot of stuff now that is COMMUNISM.
>>2696009>YES COMMUNISM IS A CLASS SOCIETY>IT IS THE CLASS DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT OVER THE BOURGEOISIEwhy do you have to fuck it up in the last two lines. the dictatorship of the proletariat liquidates the bourgeois class into the proletariat. in doing so it abolishes class society. it is the political precondition for communism, not what communism is as a mode of production.
>>2696002i asked WHO decides that workers are NOT ALLOWED to own their own homes. the implication is clear.
>>2696009why arent workers allowed to own their own homes if they are in charge? BECAUSE THEY ARENT IN CHARGE
>>2696017damn i haven't seen that meme since like 2009
>>2696015why aren't the national bourgeois allowed to murder each other if they are in charge?
>>2696010that is literally the implication of his post. read the conversation in its full context.
>>2696019>murder each otherthey murder poor people, not fellow rich people
>>2696019They are way more class conscious.
>>2696024that was the anon's point
I am going to guess that hazbin hotels might actually have a bit of potential when it comes to being "Cool" again, they seem to be genuinely pissed off while the right mostly just seems desperate to come off as cool and impressive.
While I don't think democrats will ever be as cool as they were in the 90s and late 00s there is still a bit of potential there in their end of the spectacle.
If the bourgeoisie are in charge, why are they not allowed to nationalize private property?
WHO????? Is disallowing them?
(Entirely typical anarchist position - it is the state that apparently rules the bourgeoisie by stopping them from acting against their interests. Scary thing, this state. We should abolish it before sbolishing capitalism)
>>2696031>communism abolishes the state<but being against the state is badmore contradictions
but anyway, the reason why the working class reject communism is because it is against their interests. i have sufficiently demonstrated this and so that will be the final word.
>>2696031The state is not typically run by the bourgeoisie itself, it's run by the representatives of the bourgeoisie, who depend on campaign support from a wide swath of bourgeois doners, so they have a wider interest than just the interest of one company.
>>2696031Smith Anon (the one who has been JAQing off ITT) is not an anarchist but an honest to god liberal. He used to haunt the political economy threads. On the one hand he makes impressive effort posts with lots of sources, on the other hand he is a liberal and very grating. Not even an Anarchist.
>>2696034>i have sufficiently demonstrated this and so that will be the final word.i have investigated my self and found myself innocent type declaration. my source? it came to me in a dream.
>>2696034>communism abolishes the state<but being against the state is badNo contradiction.
Communism abolishes class war.
But being against class war is bad
>>2695384Like a good house uyghur askari faggot, you are so proud that you speak the language of the master well. That, ladies and gentlemen and faggots, is the great African revolutionary!
The ys doesnt need reeducation camps as mich as edication camps cause zoomers are retarded and cant read.
>>2695475>why should I hate people who ethnically cleansed my whole archipelago just to have their fascist base their? Why is he not a good house uyghur like me, the great son of the revolutionary, and lick the master's ass? Keep sucking yank cock, askari, eventually they will accept you, hopefully… one day
>>2696050
Okay i wrote that fast anyways the point is i know how to read and write.
>>2695959> Somebody who produces $10k worth of goods in an hour and is paid 5% of that will make a lot more money than somebody who only makes $2k worth of goods and is paid 5% of their output.omg omg. brooo. sabocat, my friend
wage workers don't get paid in percentages of revenue. that's the whole definition of a wage worker
you have destroyed the very definition of a wage worker, subverted marxism at the root
it is the fellow bourgeoisie, co-owners, investors, founders, etc. who get paid in percentages.
by saying that workers get paid in percentages, you are ironically claiming that workers are injured parties in a bourgeois co-ownership of the means of production. which is a much stronger charge than the third worldist one of western workers being bourgefied due to imperial spoils
no wonder you keep veering into strasserism. you start out from the premise that workers and bourgies are parts of the same body. and when you agitate based on this premise, no wonder all you can imagine is promising workers 100% rather than 5% of revenue in their joint imperialist project. it all makes perfect sense now, it's perfectly consistent with your initial wrong assumption.
according to your model there really is no reason for workers to abolish capitalism, let alone imperialism, other than some vague moral one, so no wonder all you can promise workers is more wealth if only they take the place of the bourgeoisie at the helm of capitalism.
scary how you can make one mistaken assumption and then build an elaborate mound of shit on top of it without realizing your mistake. hope it never happens to me.
>>2696054btw this will actually happen
the USA will become "socialist" as in a national worker owned imperialist cooperative, they'll abolish their haute bourgeoisie and build a 100% petty bourgeoisie co-op empire
anarchists will love it. libertarians will love it. "socialists" will love it. fascists will love it. the contradictions will resolve, the american reich will reach its historical apotheosis
>>2696000>communism IS a class society. thats the big secret ive been trying to tease out. its when the government officials tell the public what they can own and what they can do. again, think about this for half a second - WHO decides all these stupid rules you keep bringing up? the bureaucracy; the intelligentsia, the vanguard, that you keep imagining yourself part of. you do not believe in worker democracy and you do not believe in freedom. as a friend of the working class, you are my enemy and an enemy of humanity.>democracy>freedomsmartest liberal, btw how did not anyone notice that guy is a retard early on, he was constantly begging the question.
>>2696062i'll be sure to write to my congressman about it just for you. might as well say a nightly prayer for you too for all the good it would do.
>>2696054the truth nuke that destroyed sabotard and all his crypto-chauvinist bs for once and for all
>>2696066Shoot your congressman. You are a yank. You are a violent animal. Put it to good use.
>>2696062I hope america leaves the island but theres not much i can do as one person
>>2696056This scenario is only real in your mind
>>2696056That is the logical conclusion to Ziohranism-Plattnerism, the highest stage of Proudhonism.
Yousa thinkin weesa people gonna start a war???
I have created the /indopol/, /satafrikapol/, and /francopol/, but it is all useless. /usapol/ faggotry must be annihilated first, only then the civilised peoples' threads will flourish.
>>2696080The only people bringing up platner are you guys i dont know anyone on here who even likes him
>>2696054>wage workers don't get paid in percentages of revenueAnon wtf does this even mean? If you get paid a wage, and produce an output, then your wage is equivalent to a percentage of your output. A worker who produces $100/h and is paid $20/h is being paid 20% of their output. It's just basic math. This is a direct measure of your rate of exploitation because it tells you what proportion of your produced value is being taken as surplus by the capitalist. I legitimately don't understand you're objection here. Percentage is just a way to express what proportion of output is distributed as wages and what proportion is appropriated as surplus. Would you prefer to use fractions instead? It wouldn't make a difference.
>by saying that workers get paid in percentages, you are ironically claiming that workers are injured parties in a bourgeois co-ownership of the means of productionNo? What? I'm claiming that workers only recieve a fraction of the value that they produce and therin lies the source of profit and surplus extraction. How does this imply ownership of capital?
>according to your model there really is no reason for workers to abolish capitalismAgain, I have no idea how you figure this. Workers have an interest in abolishing capitalism because it exploits them by paying them less than the value of what they produce, and the laws of profit accumulation demand that this compensation be squeezed at every possible opportunity. How does expeessing exploitation asbpercentages figure into that?
>>2696083Midterm arent here yet. But that didnt stop dick riders 6 months ago. So we are free to criticize dick rider. When midterm here we will see if platner the nazi is still the most progressive dick they ride
>>2696089maybe he isn't really chagossian and/or he is but his job is to shitpost for the CIA
>>2696093Nah, his shtick is way too niche. He definitely does it for the love of the game.
>>2696089Harrass? He will stop breathing soon, fed.
>>2696090You Agent Kochinskiite faggot. The vast majority of Chagossians are Mauritian citizens. The slaves of the Yanks, the Brits, say that the Chagossians can 'apply to become Brit citizens'. But they will only approve a handful applications, only for the most loyal house negros (like ethiopian son of the revolutionary).
And that is good. The revolutionary Chagossian does not beg for British citizenship. We are peoud Mauritians. We have no use for citizenship of a monarchy vassalised by the Yank baboons.
We will bury you.
>>2696099Because it is not historically progressive to do so
>>2696098What do you think about chagossians who say they dont trust mauritious?
>>2696099The few, true American communists have been permabanned from this place, so that Ziohran cocksuckers, Plattnerist asslickers, dickriders of the lowest grade can turn this place into the left wing of imperialism.
Free Evan Reif
Normalise anti-Americanism
>>2696101>>2696099Forget deepseek you can just read the books and find irl people to discuss and do things with
>>2696102They are askaris
Uncle toms
House negros
Saboteurs who deserve the sams fate as yanks: the Red Bayonet suppository
>>2696099labor aristocracy mentioned!
>>2696107I guess go a head and atorphy your brain pretending a llm is your friend?
>>2696107no way this isn't cherry picked
are amerimutts actually this retarded
>>2696099All that is irrelevant to the whole point of the discussion, which is that first world workers are not only exploited, but that they can be much wealthier even when exploited at the same rate. At the end DeepSeek even agrees that the rate of exploitation would be the same if the ratio of surplus to wages remained the same. The point of using percentages was just to illustrate how this could be the case. What this is quibbling over is the reasons why such a scenario might emerge, e.g. the higher cost of the reproduction of labour power in a given society, political considerations, etc. If you want to talk about the particular reasons why Western capitalists might pay workers more when they could theoretically exploit them at a higher rate, then that's a great discussion to have. However it's separate from the question of whether or not they're exploited at all.
>>2696084just take the L bro
>>2696114I'm gonna be real with you Anon, I dont think you understand what the convo was even about, which is why you're bringing up unrelated things.
>>2696095True revolutionaries annouce their plans on the clearnet where feds can read it
and do nothing Will the revolution bring cog?
(Chagossian occulied government?)
>>2695691lol manufacturing is down
>>2696107meh, that's b8 engagement. all those videos where people say the capital of Europe is Paris, it's basically the worst people they could find.
>>2696113I think we three (me, you and deepseek) agree on the fundamentals, but disagree about what ig means and cinsequdntially tactics and strategy.
You can be exploited but at the same time be a net recipient of others' labor time.
I just think it's not good to agitate for net recipients of labor time to then demand more of the surplus as well, it's not internationalist and heightens the contradictions between first and third world lsbor rather than recknciling them.
You should be agitating for reducing the first world workers cost of reproduction, which improves their QoL without throwing the third world under the bus
I think a big part of the reason why the western left fails and say the chinese (For whatever issues people have with them) succeed is that the chinese are just there for trade and parlaying. While we may not have capital, we can generally be present elsewhere. I just think that we have a bit of a snooty attitude towards things, both on the woke and anti-woke left.
>>2696101Who are the hotties?
>>2696131>If you produce $100 and consume $120 worth of goods, you are a net receiver Do you not see a problem here comrade? How are you going to spend more than your income? How can somebody who only has $100 spend $120?
Glowie rumour mill is saying the US and Israel will launch an attack on Iran in the coming week.
Do you believe it?
I don’t believe anything until I actually see it
>>2696134I mean for one I’d say the Chinese left is intensely focused on internal/domestic issues and since the Cold War the western left has basically taken the role of serving the interests of foreign states.
>>2696151>the western left has basically taken the role of serving the interests of foreign states.lol imagine believing this
>>2696146Converted to hours worked, it means for every 1 hour worked, someone else must work extra 12 minutes beyond their reproduction to make your shoes
>>2696153It’s both historically and presently true. Only thing is people whine like children that it’s never enough or come up with hackneyed nonsense to say “actually they’re chauvinists”. Lord knows I think we’d be in a better position if we actually focused on issues domestically.
>>2696056Brutal Truthnuke, a “communist” America would by necessity be the Fourth Reich to the imperial periphery and is the primary reason we are so opposed to an American color revolution to install national socialism. We want your empire of nightmares to sultry contained to its own hemisphere, not prepare itself so it can genocide the Russians and enslave the rest of the periphery as your communists want
>>2696147it will happen on friday.
t. knower
>>2696056>>2696158>Retarded third worldists so fucking brain broken they think “upholding socialism” is gonna be the casus belli of invading China.Literally goes to show they’re just enemies of the working class out here. They’re more offended and unrealistically obsessed with a near moribund American socialist movement than the actual reactionaries in power.
>>2696158Trvthnuke, the only socialism possible in the West is national socialism complete with a genocidal campaign against Russia and/or China, and 99% of western workers including on this very website will approve of it
>>2696161yes joe sims faggot, how dare the third worlders be mad at the impotence of the 'socialist movement' of the only imperialist entity in the world? the imperialist entity which has by far surpassed nazi germany in its savagery
>>2696158It’s already the fourth reich now and has been since the end of WWII, the disruption and vacuum of power that would happen from this coup or revolution would necessarily give the third world enough breathing room to build forces to counter an America that comes back trying to be Mao’s cartoon caricature of the Soviet Union under Khruschev and Brezhnev
>>2695945Proletarianizing the petty-bourgeoisie is based. Fuck rent-control. Nobody should own a home.
>>2696162So clash of civilizations is real and we might as well be a separate species
>>2696158'communist america' is an oxymoron. communism implies the absence of amerika, a dead amerika.
what is strasserism? it is simply nazism. no need for hair splitting.
>>2696155Your deepseek response also states talks about German worker who buys food grown by migrant workers who are paid "below subsistence". Except that if they were paid below subsistence they wouldn't be able to reproduce their own labour power, the cost of which forms the floor below which wages cannot decline. In other words it's presenting a hypothetical scenario which doesn't adhere to the laws of capitalist economics described by Marx. This is the problem with relying on LLMs for stuff like this, they don't actually do any thinking or analysis. They just string words together that sound plausible and tell you what it thinks you want to hear. Tell me, what prompt did you use for these? Did you ask it to provide you with evidence that Western workers are net exploiters? Because if you did its basically starting from a conclusion and working backwards to justify it, which I shouldn't have to tell you is the opposite of logic.
>>2696161Maybe because the reactionaries in power aren’t frothing at the mouth at the chance to slaughter Russian and Chinese “orks” while your liberals and leftists are. Not that Trump was ever particularly reactionary to begin with
>>2696166Thats pretty much the rational conclusion of third worldism, yeah. History isn’t driven by class struggle but national/civilizational struggle. And if you come to the conclusion that means the only rational move is to uphold “your” nation or civilization or whatever they’ll shit themselves and go “nuh-uh, that’s not true!”
>>2696166we are separate species. Homo sapiens were bifurcated a few centuries ago.
One small branch became more violent, greedy, and degenerate, they are known as yanks today.
The other branch, the overwhelming majority, continued on the normal anthropological evolution of the homo sapiens: the non-yanks of the world.
amerikans in this sense are a freak mutation. a mistake of nature. for the religious, they can be seen as a punishment from the evil god.
>>2696169Imagine actually believing that shit. You’re genuinely retarded.
>>2696166Human history has been defined by the conflict between Thalassocratic Atlanticism and Tellurocratic Eurasianism, even before class society was a thing these two mutually exclusive currents have been competing for dominance
>>2696169>Maybe because the reactionaries in power aren’t frothing at the mouth at the chance to slaughter Russian and ChineseWhatever you think of liberals aside, this is absolutely delusional take.
>>2696170class struggle applies to people.
among people, there is no clash of civilisations. there is no clash between the 'european civilisation' and the 'african civilisation' or the 'chinese civilisation'. these are unmarxist.
but yanks are not people. yanks are cancer mutations which must be exised mercilessly, for the actual people to not go extinct.
>>2696173amerikkkan 'leftists' are objectively much more russophobic and sinophobic than the non-'leftists'.
that is a fact.
>>2696174You stole that from the Assassin's Creed games which stole that idea from Lyndon Larouche
>>2696177Not true, I have Black Myth Zhong Qui on preorder and a bottle of Stoli to enjoy it with
>>2696166Just stop wanting to kill me and we can work on overthrowing the bourgeoisie together. I know it's hard, but I believe in you :)
>>2696175Is it? Did the Ukrainian coup happen under Obama or Trump? Did the genocidal campaigns against Russian speakers happen with MAGA’s blessing or the establishment liberals and conservatives? Did the Gaza Genocide happen under Trump or Biden?
>>2696169>>2696169>>2696169>Russian and Chinese “orks” while your liberals and leftists arThese people arent leftist
>>2696182Obama isnt a leftist retard everybody on this board hated him and biden when they were power
>>2696181I’m too tired from my job and chores tbh
>>2696182>Did the Gaza Genocide happen under Trump or Bidenyes
>>2696178It’s literally in the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita and countless other sources, not sure what some zoomy zoom vidya slop has to do with it
>>2696176You are as rational as hippies talking about the age of aqaurius, its all just vibes and innaction and a power fantasy where people you hate die
>>2696181the yank savage lights you on fire, rapes your wife, beheads your daughter, all while moaning that you are not showing solidarity with him for the hypothetical, mythical, fictional overthrowing of his bourgeoisie
which he willingly and enthusiastically serves >>2696184Yes you hated Biden so much that during 2020 you used the death of a fentanyl addict to launch a campaign of terror across major American cities in an orgy of violence on the behalf of his candidacy
>>2696190your yank brain will not be spoon fed, cancerous subhuman. what I say follows from basic scientific understanding of the world. marxism 101.
>>2696191The alternative is homelessness and death if you don’t have the means to escape, which if you did would mean you’re raping third worlders even more just to leave, there’s no winning, all you can do is eat your chicken liver with stolen spices and try to recover from how draining the day is.
>>2696192I mean i wasnt part of the portests (a regret)
But it had nothing to do with biden.
People just hate cops and for good reason
>>2696168Wages fluctuate around subsistence for the whole economy, yes, if they trended downward the stock of proletarians would slowly deplete til extinction.
But in concrete cases wages can fall below subsistence, doesn't mean the worker drops dead right there, they'll just didle earlier than they otherwise would have, and live shittier lives.
On country level it means life expectancy goes down, population goes down and everyone is miserable, but the country doesn't disappear overnight. Might take decades for total collapse while living below subsistence.
90s russia or slaves in congo for example.
This means that bourgies can "short" the labor market by exploiting people currently in crisis, or causing the crisis themselves in the first place.
>>2696194Muh humans vs.orcs likes its fantasy novel shut up you dont know shit
>>2696195the alternative is growing a spine and acting like a communist by bombing wall street and pushing for a few nuclear oopsies near dense urban centres in yanklandia you defeatist demoralising treatler faggot
>>2696192day 20 of /pol/ not fucking off back to their mossad board
give it up for day 20
>>2696161>Literally goes to show they’re just enemies of the working class out heresays the democrat shill lmao
>>2696198you are an orc tho
you are uniquely evil
>>2696201disgusting vidya-addict, DNC-dickriding, hollywoodslop-consoooooming, imperalism-apologist, private-school alumni CPUSAnon is too smug for the ignorant impotent lazy faggot that he is
>Bible and the Bhagavad Gita
Hey come when chagos was bitching about me having a unscientific understanding of the world he had nothing to say about the man citing book s hat says a man split the red sea with a stick and that a group of people should have lifetime sentence to pickup trash ?
>>2696206>>2696202You’re an FBI agent and a devil, out with you, no power here
i think we should nuke any part of the world that speaks english
>>2696200The George Floyd riots were a massive win for /pol/ in terms of optics but okay. How’s CHAZ doing?
>>2696209I thought that was the sex manual
>>2696212portland LITERALLY decimated, gone, burnt to the ground at jobiden's hands
>>2696214half of america has been destroyed by george floyd rioters and you want to talk about optics? 200 million people died in the summer of HATRED and SLAUGHTER
If you’re a third worldist shouldn’t you cheer on any riot in the first world no matter what anyway?
>>2696217Not when the result is an imperialist regime providing free aid to Ukronazis
>>2696212/pol/ has never won anything in its life, it just a bunch retards psyoping themsleves and spreading the psyops they believe, while other people act in the story they watch and dissipate the energy into irelevant bulshit
>>2696218That was going to happen no matter who got elected, you think John McCain didn’t have a throbbing vein he blamed on Putin?
>>2696219no it was definitely an optics win for pol, a bunch of neo nazis who hate black people decided they REALLY hate black people now
>>2696218Are one of those trump is peace candidate retards?
,
>>2696056I would find it hilarious if the US decides to declare war to Chynah, because of Chynah is too capitalist, too nationalist or too fascist.
>>2696161>a near moribund American socialistthat's precisely the point, because is moribund, the only revitalizing force will be new reactionaries whitewashing the empire war crimes, and revision of history.
>>2696213Thats the kama sutra
>>2696224stupidpoltards always return when the right is losing don't they
>>2696225I thought that was the chick pea based sauce
>>2696207It’s really not about cool, it’s about the perception of what’s being offered. “Cool” doesn’t factor into it.
The perception of the Left by young men is that it offers them nothing, it’s “for” someone else, not for the “average worker”. This is a perception propagandized by the Right with the help of the Left itself. Like the key isn’t to become “the cool kids” it’s to offer young men something.
>>2696197Yeah but we aren't talking about temporary fluctuations here, we're talking about the basic operation of the global imperialist-capitalist system. The idea that any commodity is produced below subsistence wages in the normal course of capitalist production is directly contrary to Marxism. Looking at the issue more broadly though, your argument (or rather DeepSeek's) would really only stand if productivity in the third world was absurdly low. Taking the shirt example from your pic, it would only make the German a net exploiter if the Bangladeshi garment worker was putting out fewer than ten shirts every hour, since only then would the $5 price tag be incongruent with the output of the German worker. 10 or more shirts means that the outputs are equivalent. A quick query with DeepSeek says that average output per worker per hour in a Bangladeshi garment factory is typically in the dozens or hundreds depending on the factory and the specific article.
>>2696211no. you pennyfag yank freak will not succeed in deflecting your animalistic crimes on other anglos. Other anglos are flawed, they have sinned. But only the yank is beyond redemption. Death to the yank and only the yank.
>>2696209because I know how differentiate between rhetorical tricks and actual retarded antiscientific libtardian faggotry
>>2696231You still didn’t kill that tourist, and you won’t because you’re a digital djinn
>>2696212CHAZ is the best that the left-imperialists can do. Cringe, faggotry, and lumpen-hooliganism. No proletarian to be seen. Enemies of science, ALL OF THEM.
The American worker wants to kill every single Russian, Iranian and Chinese, even though we haven't done anything to them. I want to be comrades with American workers, but they consider me subhuman. It is very sad.
>>2696231english is the devils language
speaking it makes you spiritually aryan-american
>>2696234That wasnt a rhetorical trick he said hes right , and the bible and bragavad gita says he is..
I thought you went to college ?
>>2696235i will oppose you as long as you have this scary creepy avatar.
only a serial killer would adopt such an avatar.
be honest, how many babies did you murder in Iraq?
>>2696240I don’t want to kill you, I’m just a small part of a machine that does, if it were up to me we’d eat cold soup and watch Solaris but that’s not where we are
>>2696241aryan-americans do not exist.
only amerikkkans exist.
white, black, latino etc: they are all yanks. they gotta go. all of em
The Djinn is so weak that The Amazing World of Gumball scares him, imagine what would happen if you showed him season 1 spongebob, he’d probably vanish into the smoke from whence he came
>>2696242you are retarded if you cannot filter the shitposts from actual antiscientifc garbage that you swallow
one talks shit to troll, the other seriously believes in shit
the second must be dealt with
the first is best ignored
>collegecollege is what 11-18 year olds go to here. I dont speak yankish.
>>2696247gumball is yank faggotry.
>>2696246aryan-amerikkkan
sorry i'm still learning maoist
>>2696240>>2696240>The American worker wants to kill every single Russian, Iranian and Chinese,And you want to fuck the chipmunk from alvin and the chipmonks , you say you dont?
Well heres a senario where you take power and make everything a datacenter so you can make a sentient chipmunk to fuck, we have to stop the this senario all costs infact it would be better that we keep current people in power it doest happen
>>2696211you are facetious, but by the reactionaries' logics, every time a nation which speaks a particular language bombs another country, the country that does the bombing has a language that should be banned, ostracized, segregated and genocided.
by that extension, and by the crimes of the UK and now the US, all people speaking English deserve to face the wall.
>>2696251Wallace and Gromit raped the world
they're sending ur ass to iran bruh
>>2696249I got better things to do that argue with your faggot ass goodbye
>>2696253That's crazy, everyone knows Simon gives the best head
you're gonna die in tehran cuz
>>2696257Maybe this will their excuse to go full authorian
Will anti trump libs fall for it and rally round the flag (of pedofile occupied goverment?)
>>2696255i don't subscribe to reactionary logic
i am an anti-reactionary
everyone should just have a beer and chill out
Getting my head blown off by Quds force wouldn’t be the worst way to go, I’d prefer for them to be here instead of the other way but you can’t always get what you want
>>2696207>Maybe for all of his faults Mamdami's general stiff-upper lip and straight-laced vibe is the path to victory. Politics is a popularity contest. It's a bit like high school in that the edgy kids are usually not the most popular or become homecoming king/queen.
There's a great movie called Election about a student government election at a high school. The perfectionist teacher's pet (who is going for a career in politics) winds up being much less popular than a dumb football player and she loses it. But the football player actually likes people, he's nice to everybody.
>>2696254fake news. You fell for classic la Piscine subterfuge
>>2696268Why not dodge?
If you have health care get an adderal perscription and the army says you cant go
(This buys you time to hide better)
>>2696260you got better things to do, like being a mystic retard
>epstine files show the rich dont think anyone else is human
>they invaded these countries for you prole
>>2696275Zohran is indeed implementing Sharia by enforcing the sanctity of private property, specially land, and by protecting old rich perverts against the poor men's outrage.
Dollar-u-Akbar!
>>2696275>>269627Billionaires to. Be arrested for unpaid zakat
>>2696272They’re never doing the draft again and if they do I have an escape route to Europe
Zohran killed Anwar Sadat
>>2696279zaKKKat is quasi-ancapism.
The Ottoman Empire was pretty cool if you weren’t greek, Armenian, or assyrian, let’s larp as that, it wouldn’t be worse than the status quo
>>2696288>>2696290>Credit: Conservative Post555-come-on-now
>>2696082That's cool. I made the /Africa/ General and every other /Africa/ general that has ever existed on leftypol. Sometimes they would slide off the board with me as the last 10 posts after I got tired of posting news nobody replies to. I have made you a /Maurpol/ now too.
>>2695494I'll be following the plight of the Chagossian freedom fighters who are already on Chagos reclaiming their land.
>>2696270well in real life the perfectionist teacher's pet ends up being your Karl Rove type. Your gray eminence behind the cocaine fueled dumbass the people want to have a beer with
>>2696082if anything, burgershit just wins by default because imageboards are a waste of time and we're the best at being time wasters
>>2696298These askaris who are on chagos are not reclaiming chagos. They are house uyghurs for the british reform party (far right of uk). They are against the handing over of the islands to mauritius and say 'god save the king, god bless the usa'.
That mongrel Mandarin will be beheaded with a sugar cane soon.
>>2696297It's like you guys are immune to humor. I'm just laughing at this whole situation about these Chagossians that this obsessive anon has forced us to talk about everyday for months when in the entire world, the population of Chagossians(10,000) is 1/7 the population of the suburb I live in that none of you have ever heard of. Of all the things in the world I don't really care about, this is high on the list.
>>2696308>It's like you guys are immune to humor. i laughed … as I posted 555-come-on-now
>>2696309Why would it engage in military adventurism when the whole point of wanting socialism in America is that imperialism takes money away from social services?
>>2696308Ethiopian faggot still obsessing over the population size.
I piss on your neighbourhood.
Your masters are occupying my island and I will oppose them, full stop.
So because we are small we are supposed to take it in the ass without complaints?
You enjoy licking yank ass, not me.
Faggot Ethiopian would rather parrot Reform Party and Tory askaris in order to drown Chagossian anti-imperialism instead of opposing his fascist regime.
A good slave of the yank you are. How sweet their asshole must taste, for you to so passionatelt defend your masters.
I for one wish to make the mauritiean economic miracle happen here, in my neighborhood
>>2696167>'communist america' is an oxymoron. communism implies the absence of amerika, a dead amerika. it implies that absence of the american empire, not a giant hole in the map where the burger reich used to be. Just like tsarist russian empire died and was replaced by the soviet union.
Based on core Marxist theory and the analysis of related scholarly sources, the answer is a definitive no. A genuine dictatorship of the proletariat in America would necessitate the dismantling of imperialism, not its maintenance or expansion. The exploitation of foreign nations is understood to be a fundamental feature of capitalism, and a socialist system would need to break from this dynamic entirely.
🧠 The Capitalist Foundation of Imperialism
To understand why a workers' state would oppose imperialism, we must first understand why capitalism requires it.
The Capitalist Drive for Expansion: Critics argue that US foreign policy is not merely a series of strategic errors but is driven by the inherent needs of capitalism. To sustain a profitable capitalist economy, there must be a continuous expansion of markets and an increase in consumption . This imperative has historically shaped a foreign policy of invasion, resource extraction, and neo-colonialism, often hidden behind a rhetoric of spreading democracy .
The Mechanism of "Super-Exploitation": Marxist dependency theory, particularly the work of Ruy Mauro Marini, explains how wealth is transferred from poorer to wealthier nations. This happens through the "super-exploitation" of labor in the Global South, characterized by wages paid below the real value of labor power, extreme working hours, and intense work to the point of exhaustion . This system allows imperialist countries to enjoy a higher quality of life and fund social programs, not through superior efficiency alone, but through this unequal exchange and value transfer from dependent nations . The prosperity of the imperial core is thus built on the underdevelopment of the periphery.
🚩 The Logic of a Dictatorship of the Proletariat
A "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a Marxist concept referring to a transitional state where the working class holds political power, typically after a revolution that overthrows capitalism. Its fundamental goals are antithetical to imperialism.
Smashing Imperialism, Not Building It: From a Marxist-Leninist perspective, the fight for a dictatorship of the proletariat is inseparable from the fight against imperialism. The establishment of such a state in a major imperialist power like the U.S. would be, by definition, the "beginning of the end of world imperialism" . Its goal would be to break the chain of exploitation, not to create a new link.
Socialism Cannot Be Built on Exploitation: The logic of a workers' state is to reorganize society based on need and common good, not private profit. Funding social programs through the continued or expanded exploitation of foreign workers would be a direct contradiction. It would mean simply recreating the capitalist dynamic of an "us" (Americans) who benefit at the expense of a "them" (the rest of the world) . The theoretical basis for genuine internationalism lies in workers in the Global North recognizing that their relative privilege is tied to the super-exploitation of workers in the Global South .
Foreign Policy as Solidarity: A leftist foreign policy, as envisioned by progressive thinkers, would be fundamentally reoriented. Instead of seeking primacy and hegemony, it would focus on promoting economic equality, reducing the global military footprint, and building genuine international cooperation . This is a shift from exploitation to solidarity.
In summary, the very purpose of a dictatorship of the proletariat is to transcend the capitalist mode of production, which is inherently tied to imperialism. Therefore, such a system could not logically maintain or expand imperialism to fund itself, as that would perpetuate the class and international divisions it aims to abolish.
>>2696324mooooooodddddds
kill this ai user
>>2696327Look man if even the Chinese AI agrees that communist America would be a good thing and not imperialist then maybe y'all should put the breaks on this idea that an American DOTP would necessarily be imperialist because something something treats
Goodnight yank savages
I hope when I wake up tomorrow you have dismantled your faggotic imperialism
>>2696329No need to get homophobic about it man
>>2696329goodnight comrade. don't dream about us ok?
>>2696310Sorry, I think Chagos puts me in the frame of mind where everything I say will be taken literally no matter how humorously I put it.
>>2696317It was a joke you autistic sperg.
>>2696314Yeah dude, it's a big world. A lot of people are dying en masse and going through real suffering and you expect the world to focus their attention on whether you get to live on one tropical paradise or another. Why don't you form your own Chagossian militia and go behead Mandarin yourself?
>>2696334He should move to Cape Verde, seriously
I don't know how Richard Wolff keeps his sanity. He's been ranting about the evils of American capitalism for the better part of a century and even when it's gotten this bad, most are still not willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, we might need to get rid of it.
>>2696343>I don't know how Richard Wolff keeps his sanity. well he's 80 so he won't have to live through the worst of what's to come lol
>>2696343he's basically a trotskyist, and they get off on being miserable. they want a world that they can bark at, he's more at home with his sorrow than without it
>>2696343I don't get how "marxists" can observe just how exceptionally reactionary the american working class is for 100 years, and not adjust their priors or try to get to the bottom of such a phenomenon
>>2696343>I don't know how Richard Wolff keeps his sanity. He's been ranting about the evils of American capitalism for the better part of a century and even when it's gotten this bad, most are still not willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, we might need to get rid of it.People repeat memes and phrases mindlessly I think. I've had coworkers who've unironically done the "Communism works great in
theory but not in practice" line a million times. Customers blamed hard seltzers on Communists. Many,
many people just repeat what they've heard. Hell in Russia you had Red Army conscripts cheering Bolshevism while simultaneously booing Communism.
So I don't think many of the people who mindlessly uphold Capitalism will actually fight for it if push comes to shove.
>>2696356>exceptionally reactionarylol there's insanely reactionary people all over the earth, they just don't have the power and their insanity isn't constantly broadcast around the world
>>2696329>he goes to sleep at 2AMzomg he's literally me
>>2696356people have faith in all kinds of things.
>>2696356Maybe because you actively want to believe that the American working class is "uniquely reactionary" and then look for evidence to "prove" that rather than trying to analyze things neutrally? And people who actually treat theory seriously don't come to the same conclusions?
>>2696359>lol there's insanely reactionary people all over the earth, they just don't have the power and their insanity isn't constantly broadcast around the worldUnironically you read news in the developing world and some of the shit you'll come across is baffling and backwards. Only thing is third worldism has an inbuilt excuse of declaring anything reactionary in the third world is some artificial imposition by Westerners while anything reactionary in the first world is "the true face of the entirety of the first world revealed."
>>2696359There's photos of apple cheeked american boys with cadillacs and american gals in sundresses, citizens of the most advanced and wealthy country in the world, posing, smiling for a photo in front of a charred corpse of a lynched black man.
Such things happened not in medieval times, but in living memory.
And every group america takes under its eings does the same things: isis, latin american contras, zionists
>>2696355>Decap strikes on iran with tactical nukes in the next 24 hoursbig if true
>>2696366>i bet you didn't know about lynchingsyes, kid. I knew all this shit for decades.
>And every group america takes under its eings does the same things: isis, latin american contras, zionistsyeah, proof of what i said. there's reactionaries all over the world. congrats on reaching the same conclusion. and america does support reactionaries around the world. but it doesn't always create them. sometimes they just exist and america gives them weapons, money, training etc.
>>2696355he is going schizo… the tankiepill is inevitable
>>2696365It absolutely is all downstream from america.
Palestinians, the most abused people in the world, ones who are most deserving to be angry, who get bombed to the stone age repeately, comprized almost entirely of people with childhood trauma, don't cut babies out of pregnant womens' bellies.
But new jersey jews in the IDF do
>>2696368My country never had a lynching in 100 years of its existrnce
>>2696366Fucking called it on "All the evil shit is just because America did it!"
>>2696370America didn't mind control certain Islamic states into stoning women to death for getting raped. Secondly you're playing a rhetorical game where you take a broadly sympathetic group, such as the Palestinians, and use them as a shield because Israel floods the field with atrocity propaganda (a massive majority of which is fake) and so if there's a case in which "Palestinians" as nebulous as that'd be do something "bad" then in turn you can flip the conversation around to "Well you're doing Israeli propaganda now."
another fine night on /baitypol/
>>2695416Mauritian Occupied Thread
>>2696376>America didn't mind control certain Islamic states into stoning women to death for getting rapedAmericans and Brits did in fact help in promoting wahhabism as a weapon against secular pro-Soviet arab regimes
>>2696356Anon less than 30 years ago Yugoslav proles were murdering each other because the mfs from the village next door spoke a with a funny accent. Syrian proles last year cheered the fall of their anti-imperialist government in favour of one that practically thanks Israel for bombing them. If there's one thing that the end of the Cold War and the global death of socialism has taught us, it's that there is nothing uniquely reactionary about America.
>>2696376stop biting the bait designed in a lab to get you to sound like you're defending imperialism even if you aren't. they've perfected the bait. they even have done trials on how long someone reads before they stop reading and find out exactly when to time their posts so that theirs get read and people get tired by the time they get to yours so they zone out halfway through and see you as the morshu explaining meme
>>2696376Ok, name 1 time shen someone in kazakhstan cut a baby out of a prrgnant womans belly and stomped on its head
(It's a muslim country btw)
Such things only occur in america and smerica-affiliated groups
>>2696382Both these countries were swatming with american glowies and american funding for reactionary groups wdym
>>2696376>America didn't mind control certain Islamic states into stoning women to death for getting raped.why are there islamic states in the middle east instead of socialists?
>>2696381>Americans and Brits did in fact help in promoting wahhabism as a weapon against secular pro-Soviet arab regimesYeah and they had extensive cooperation from the Saudi Arabians and other local reactionaries. America and Britain were global sponsors of reaction because they were the strongest reactionary powers. In the mid 19th century Marx argued that this title belonged to Russia and vocally supported Britain against them in the Crimean War for this reason. The only thing special about America is that its the most powerful and globally influential reactionary state. If they were to fall without socialism supplanting capitalism, then or another bourgeois state would simply take their place and we'd have to listen to you people ramble about how India or Brazil or wherever is uniquely reactionary and must be destroyed.
>>2696389And did the American glowies zap those people with mind control rays? Did they kidnap them all and MKUltra them into doing what they did? No, they simply put out reactionary propaganda and these people believed it, because they were reactionaries.
I swear to god all of you are bad at framing your points correctly.
CPUSAnon and Sabocat's point should simply be framed this way: burgers don't create reactionaries from whole cloth, they find already existing reactionaries and lend them more power than they would otherwise have. i.e. America isn't exceptionally reactionary, it's just exceptionally powerful, and able to empower reactionaries around the world.
new thread, exceptionally reactionary burger chuds
>>2696386new thread, exceptionally reactionary burger chuds
>>2696386new thread, exceptionally reactionary burger chuds
>>2696386new thread, exceptionally reactionary burger chuds
>>2696386new thread, exceptionally reactionary burger chuds
>>2696386new thread, exceptionally reactionary burger chuds
>>2696386>>2696393>America isn't exceptionally reactionaryamerican right wingers consider hitler a leftist lmao
>>2696393Exactly. The irony is that these reactionary alliances are simply the bourgeoisie and landowners of the world acting in class solidarity. You'd think that the solution to this problem is for the global working class to demonstrate similar solidarity, and yet we always have people showing up to tell use that we should under no circumstances work towards this. Very curious.
>>2696395Only because they want to distance themselves from him and accuse their enemies of being Nazis.
>>2696395in 18th brumaire Marx joked that right wingers accuse each other of being socialists. it's not a new phenomena.
>>2696395>american right wingers consider hitler a leftist lmaowow… conservatives taking bribes from AIPAC called hitler a leftist? tell me more.
>>2696389Ok, better example: the US takes the reigns of fucking Iran after the British empire collapses. Do the proles react with a socialist revolution? No. The socialists JOIN the revolution, thinking they can co-opt it, but the proles instead hitched their wagon to medieval-tier reactionary theocrats who think secular society of any kind was a mistake. Their solution to being fucked by American capitalists was to submit themselves to being fucked by book-thumbing geezers screeching that everyone they don't like needs to be hanged because God says so or whatever.
>>2695615You're letting the discussion drag on for too long and get away from what matters: surplus-value is theft. Why should I be mad the government takes 30% of my salary when my boss takes 90% before that? In fact, the government takes only 3% of what I produce.
>>2695722I never got why voting ID is even an issue to you burgers. Just pass a federal law requiring SSN to vote and be done with it, one less political football for the uniparty culture wars.
>>2696647That’s how it already is, you need a SSN and address to vote. So our system already disenfranchises the homeless, the republicans push for this voter ID shit so they can add as much bureaucracy to voting as possible.
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