/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Very happy to help you on your journey but gonna warn you
>Just generally after 18-something years, I'm tired of this crap. These are some of the most useless, in-fighting, bought-out, dogshit people I have ever dealt with
We have plenty of those too. They mostly self-select by hjoining Trotskyist parties but still.

>>2720579
>I feel like they're hard-coded and baked into me. Some aspects I don't fully buy into, but I don't feel like walking away from because I don't necessarily feel like they are not incompatible to me with various aspects of Leftism.
I think that's pretty common. Your cultural background also shapes you, and that's there, and at the same time you can also make up your own mind and think for yourself. Also, in reality, the left is a relative term. It's actually rare in history for organized political movements to be left in every aspect. You can't divide society that clearly into a left and right either, insofar that many people can have a leftist attitude towards one thing while having a rightist attitude towards another thing and those things can even be linked in contradictory ways. It all seems hopelessly confused but people treating each other with mutual respect (basis of solidarity) couldn't hurt.

>>2720591
Believe me, I know. Like I said I've floated a fair amount. I've heard all the smears about
>Rainbow Communism
>Trotskyites
>Third-Worldists
>Soviets Aren't REAL Commies
>Leninists aren't REAL Commies
on and on and on and on, dude.
But I had a sticking conversation as an older guy I was more receptive to. At the same time I don't feel like getting fucking books thrown at me; I've read enough.
Lemme tell you: having a background in Reactionary TradCat Monarchism and reading Kapital and seeing Marx go
>"Yeah it's the Protestants who ruined everything, Catholic Christendom had a Based economic system"
caused me to put the book down and just stare at a wall for a while while I contemplated how many lies I'd been told.
Hate to say it to y'all but I had the same reaction when I read, "Mein Kampf," the first time.
Like I said I know I am pushing against some hard boundaries here but I got shit-else to do today and I didn't even know this was a real site. So I figured I'd ask what they thought.
I think my biggest thing is it seems like Leftists are serious about what they believe more generally than Rightoids. Rightoids have been All Hat, No Cattle my whole life. I'm sick of being hurt, risking jail and isolating myself and feeling like no one actually believes in it as much as I do.
Blame the Autism ig, I don't know how to be fake.
lmao

>>2720579
Welcome to this psychiatric hospital.
If you are worried about sectarianism, I'm afraid there's no other political movement - or any kind of movement in the whole history of the world, for what matters - more plagued by sectarianism than socialism/communism/whatever you want to call it.
That said, there's a huge supply of dogshit people. I guess I could tell you about a few national leaders of a construction workers' trade union I worked with and especially one of them was such an unhinged malignant narcissists - and everyone run cover for him - that I had to quit that fucking job at the hq after just a month. Aside from the fact they suck money from workers and sell them out, yet you see many functionaries having portraits of Marx in their offices. I must confess that for a time after the experience I thought I would have abandoned any leftist idea, but after a while I felt even more radicalised. In fact I got what someone meant when they said "social democracy is the left wing of fascism".

>>2720614
Last Lefty friend I lost kinda ran me against a wall textually over me being a Southern Nationalist. At the end of the day I'm kind of Anarchistic, maybe in the Paine sort of way? Maybe that makes sense. I think Anti-Federalism always had this sort of thing in it.
At the same time like Rousseau I accept nations create governments, not the other way around. Strong hands are needed and other times people really can be left alone to manage themselves. I have always felt like the latter.
Although granted I was in very Authoritarian movements, the thing I noticed as an American is that
>gee it seems like nobody in this movement would ever follow Fuhrerprinzip because they always assume they will be the one in charge
sorta like how all Tankies think they'll be a Commissar.
Anyway, I'd just rather have conversations and dialogue and figure shit out that way. I've lurked for about 2 days, gonna keep on besides this here thread. Hope maybe I'll bump into people who wanna talk or someone who has a similar backstory.

>>2720638
As I said above, yeah I've seen it all. At least the Left is honest about division. The Right acts monolithic, inside and outside of clubhouses.
>Aside from the fact they suck money from workers and sell them out, yet you see many functionaries having portraits of Marx in their offices
Dude, the stories I could tell that would get me banned on similar shit in the Far Right. It's one reason I left. I got tired of fakes, phonies, degens and imposters. Just serial fucking grifters all the way around. In years of Street Action I think behind closed doors I have fought more of my own team than anyone on the opposing side because that's just how it goes.
Sick of being this outlier. Sick of feeling like it's all just a scam.

>>2720579
>I want to leave the right
honest question, what's stopping you?

>>2720654
Maybe I already have. Maybe it's a lack of anywhere else to go. Maybe it's not wanting to betray things I still believe. Maybe it's just been a part of me so long I'm not sure what lies beyond. Maybe I've kind of accepted being adrift, but I can still remember the optimism of being a young Alt-Righter and really thinking we were about to do something and good things were coming for my people.
Maybe it was watching people all run behind Trump that was the real beginning. Maybe it was only now that I've truly realized I don't belong here anymore. Maybe it's being disillusioned by the lifestyle and value-sets they all offer turning out to be worthless - mostly because of how Capitalism has completely fucking destroyed moral human society and no amount of running off innawoods with your internet-acquired TradWife is gonna solve anything.
Call it an attention-grabber title, but it's my feeling.

>>2720579
>Southern Nationalism probably being the biggest example
>A few religious beliefs
Latter is fine. Former is a question are you a culturalist (A respect for the traditional [white] culture of the American South) or are you gonna Lost Cause us? Lost Causerism (and a general rejection of the righteous fight to end slavery) is just not gonna fly. For the former of these two, would be worth reading into groups like the Young Patriots, Redneck Revolt, and even just generally into the Southern Traditional Culture revitalisation movement. I mean Pete Seeger et al. are well known but you have the likes of the Windborne Singers today keeping the flame alive.

>>2720660
if you understand that capitalism is the root of most problems, you're already further left than 90% of western "leftists", who prioritize idpol over class. I think you just need to find leftist friends who are OK with being edgy sometimes. maybe look into what the ACP is up to? they have chapters across the states and are unapologetically pro american.

>>2720617
>I think my biggest thing is it seems like Leftists are serious about what they believe more generally than Rightoids. Rightoids have been All Hat, No Cattle my whole life.
I think the left is defined by its ideas more than the right, which is mainly after power, and is defined more by their tactics and whatever they have on hand to dominate the immediate situation. This in a way their strength. There are communists, leftists etc. who I don't think are really leftists, or they might be and then mutate into a new kind of right as a result of some kind of historical transformation, but the left as a "normal" social phenomenon which exists (as normal as the right) really isn't afraid of being in the minority like the right is, or admitting its not strong enough (which might just be a fact) to assume leadership of a mass movement or seize power or whatever it is.

At least it seems that way to me. The left has a lot of problems but they are more tactical problems, like doing something stupid which backfires, but I think for the left to be the left really comes down to its underlying ideas more than for the right. The left also has to make tactical adjustments but needs to be self-aware that it's being tactical rather than upholding those tactical maneuverings as a matter of principle, because then it will find itself abandoning those ideas, and then it would cease to be the left. But the right can abandon whatever ideas it's using in the moment and it doesn't have a problem with this provided they're in power and can put a boot up your ass.

One skill of the left can also be to have the mental tools and skills on hand to force the right to reveal itself for what it is. That's often the case in international politics, like wars of aggression. Like rightists talking about peace, but the right loves to talk about peace because it's much easier to go and conquer somebody's ass if they're not willing to fight back.

>>2720641
>At the end of the day I'm kind of Anarchistic, maybe in the Paine sort of way?
There was a whole trend of American individualist anarchism in the 19th century that is pretty interesting. Thoreau. Lysander Spooner. Josiah Warren (video about him). Very American and anti-statist.

>sorta like how all Tankies think they'll be a Commissar.
Yeah like the hangman.

>>2720661
Oh boy, here comes the tough part for us all.
>Latter is fine
In what way? I have never in my life met a Leftist who wasn't an ironic 13 year-old that somehow made anything Marxist-rooted jive with Traditional Catholicism for example. Fuck I even think the religion now is kind of a bad joke - it doesn't serve the function of a religion, not in public life. It's a scattered mess and I no longer care enough to drive multiple hours to attend one community once a week. Been burned too much, but I can't deny what works for me spiritually.
>are you a culturalist
I mean I think racial biology is kinda undeniable. I've lived it. I've watched how our declining place and a loss of our traditional values has not only opened us to Capitalists (carpetbaggers) but also the general degeneration of our quality of life.
I know the ugly sides of Labor history in the US, how Freedmen and immigrants have been used to totally cripple White Labor Movements especially in the South. Not once am I aware of any of them not deciding maybe we'd both be fine together if we learned to cooperate. Whites seem capable of that, but not Nons.
I do genuinely believe my people had as much right as anyone else to take up arms for a cause - that means losing is always on the table. I also don't see how we can preserve our Traditional Culture when Capitalists want to force alien cultures or hostile interpretations of our identity onto us - but that's me.
Which is another thing, BTW. I've never fully bought into strict Racial Nationalism. Every Redneck no matter how bigoted has a Black person or family they would try to keep in the Ethnostate. It's schizophrenic but it's true - if you live here you know that. I think we could work everything out for everyone, but outside agitators and Carpetbaggers thrive on exploiting divides.

>>2720670
See, I don't think you can separate idpol from class. They do intersect but there's always elements of both influencing how people act. Being born in a barn doesn't make one a horse, but you know what I mean.
>ACP
No idea who that is. Also as for the last guy I replied to who said
>Redneck Revolt
>Young Patriots
I watched what amounted to these groups die horrible, screaming deaths thanks to Rainbow Communists deciding they weren't real because they flew the Stars and Bars or dared to like themselves for being White Southerners. I'm honestly unaware of them still existing besides some people who drink together in the Everglades.

>>2720674
>the Right is mainly after power
Lma-the fuck-o where ??? They have had so many golden chances and talented people come and go and they do fucking absolutely nothing. If they are all about gaining power, goddamn me I've never seen them do it.
>Spooner
I want to like Spooner but I will never, ever, ever understand how someone looks at the Union and says they're Based. Not gonna get it. Centralization and the resulting Federal Government is how we got here. A decentralized confederation is actually by default unable to become this fucking haemonculus we are stuck in.
Say what you want about him, Lee's predictions about what the US would become was right.

>>2720698
>Lma-the fuck-o where ??? They have had so many golden chances and talented people come and go and they do fucking absolutely nothing. If they are all about gaining power, goddamn me I've never seen them do it.
It's an inherently conservative force, man. The point isn't to change conditions, it's just to take what currently exists and make it based or whatever. Or they try to revert to a set of conditions which were once an accomplished fact (but can't realize it). My point is that the right is essentially fraudulent.

just start listening to socialism for all audiobooks

>>2720709
Then I need someone to explain to me why Revolutionary Right-Wing Movements that don't agree with Bourgeioisie Conservatism never, ever, ever fucking act on that and somehow always end up telling me to vote GOP and I just look at them like this.

no offense but if it took you this long you might be cooked lol good luck hope you leave rightards for good
also ignore the gay nazi flag he is a liberal (reactionary) retard

>>2720687
you can't seperate them, but class should be recognized as more important than identity.
>No idea who that is
american communist party
they're the only american communists who are actually recognized by foreign communist parties

>>2720731
they are dengoids (liberals)

>>2720744
you are glowing

>>2720649
Just to clarify, I have never taken part in organised politics of any kind. Outside shitposting here - and on previous incarnations on 8chan back in 2018 if I recall correctly - as an anon and talking with family about politics, I really never did anything like activism, going to demonstrations, joining groups. I only contemplated joining the labour party when I lived in England and Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader, but I was in a rural area pretty much far from the real action and local politics was dominated by the conservatives there. I was also busy with many different things and in a year or so I left the country for good.
Basically, I got the job at the union just because someone knowing one of their functionaries made my name to him - I wasn't asked beforehand, btw, but I got this call from this relative telling me I had to go and meet this faggot a week later. I couldn't say no and after all I was out of work, so let's try that.
Long story short, their office secretary was about to go in maternity leave a few months later and they were looking for a temporary sub but the idea was to keep the sub as permament if things went good even after the titular got back. But they also had another secretary already on sick leave because she had cancer. Fast forward a couple of months. I start working there. I was told for the first month I would have shadowed the titular secretary. In truth she was there only half of the days, she was an ADHD freak, completely schizo and chaotic in everything she did, everything hated her and basically, as soon as she wasn't around, 99% of people there immediately confided in me "thank god you look so organised! she's such a mess, but you'll surely sort everything out soon!". Unfortunately, she was in the graces of the big boss and basically she survived there for years because she was - let's say - nice with the big boss, who was obviously the only one talking good about her - in fact, he idolised her. The boss was a genuine narcissist, toxic, unhinged and that bitch indulged him systematically for years. They even joked she was her carer. I disliked that because it was clear there was an expectation to indulge the bastard, while I kept to doing my job clinically, professionally, and that's it. Obviously I had to cover for the other sick secretary too, but unfortunately I only got a single pay… Basically I had like fifteen or twenty people in my face every day, from start to finish, demanding me to do every kind of shit, from making coffee, to sort out their travels, payments, having to pretend to listen to their stupid personal gossip when they wanted me to listen, having to take external calls without having been instructed on what to say, organising meeting and events, and everyone had their fucking preferences and way they did things, so I had to go bespoke for every single bullshit. Plus the boss and a couple of other cunts dared to call me and send me messages outside of hours and a couple of times even on a Sunday. And basically I had to improvise everything because no one was capable to explain me even the most basic things, but than I did something and someone had their pet peeves because somewhat there was a correct way to do it and yada yada yada…
One morning, the big cunt - who that day was even off and he was opening his new home out of town, after he bragged he had spent 20000 euros in new furniture - called me and started picking on me for some of his bullshit. He was disrespectful once too much. I felt a nuclear detonation in my mind. I resigned with immediate effect on the morning. The "hr" guy and this other bigwig in the org basically bullied me into changing my resignation letter because I wrote clearly I was leaving because of the cunt's unacceptable and unhinged behaviour. I just had to say I was leaving for 'personal reasons'. I just wanted out then and there. Fuck them. I'm glad I left them for more than another month without a 'carer' in the middle of a scorching summer. I hope they all get lung cancer and die painfully because they keep smoking expensive cigars pretending they're Fidel, even if labour laws clearly states that workplaces must be smoke free. Btw, the big cunt was smoking 24/7 even in the face of her pregnant secretary.

>>2720747
Stop projecting money man

>>2720765
I have no money, I am a proper commie

>Believe me, I know. Like I said I've floated a fair amount. I've heard all the smears about
>Rainbow Communism
>Trotskyites
>Third-Worldists
>Soviets Aren't REAL Commies
>Leninists aren't REAL Commies
>on and on and on and on, dude.

Of course you would say this

>>2720766
You are a proper liberal tool

Look man, just read "marx for beginners" by Rius and play a full gameplay of Cookie clicker.

Sounds like a joke but its the shortest and absolutely least mentally intensive path to becoming a commie.

>>2720778
The shortest and least mentally taxing way to become a commie is to read the goddamn manifesto. Don’t know why everyone treats it like the plague.

>>2720747
>implying hinkle doesn't turboglow
kek
OP do NOT look up what the ACP president thinks about landlords and then compare it to what Adam Smith said about them

>>2720579
i think its great that you want to improve and grow as a person, honestly i think the left could do a better job with accepting people who actually want to change for the better. that being said its not an overnight process, and these things take time. the things you may think are "hard coded" in to you, are not. it may take a while to unlearn these things but trust me, you can get there. we are not born with the beliefs we hold, we adopt them from the conditions around us. basically, you are not broken.

>>2720579
I'll leave you with a quote from the Communist Manifesto to dispel some confusion and superstitions about the bourgeois state, so you don't cling stubbornly to reactionary or petty-bourgeois socialism instead of scientific socialism (Marxism):

<1. Reactionary Socialism
<A. Feudal Socialism
<Owing to their historical position, it became the vocation of the aristocracies of France and England to write pamphlets against modern bourgeois society. In the French Revolution of July 1830, and in the English reform agitation[A], these aristocracies again succumbed to the hateful upstart. Thenceforth, a serious political struggle was altogether out of the question. A literary battle alone remained possible. But even in the domain of literature the old cries of the restoration period had become impossible.(1)

<In order to arouse sympathy, the aristocracy was obliged to lose sight, apparently, of its own interests, and to formulate their indictment against the bourgeoisie in the interest of the exploited working class alone. Thus, the aristocracy took their revenge by singing lampoons on their new masters and whispering in his ears sinister prophesies of coming catastrophe.

<In this way arose feudal Socialism: half lamentation, half lampoon; half an echo of the past, half menace of the future; at times, by its bitter, witty and incisive criticism, striking the bourgeoisie to the very heart’s core; but always ludicrous in its effect, through total incapacity to comprehend the march of modern history.

<The aristocracy, in order to rally the people to them, waved the proletarian alms-bag in front for a banner. But the people, so often as it joined them, saw on their hindquarters the old feudal coats of arms, and deserted with loud and irreverent laughter.

<One section of the French Legitimists and “Young England” exhibited this spectacle.

<In pointing out that their mode of exploitation was different to that of the bourgeoisie, the feudalists forget that they exploited under circumstances and conditions that were quite different and that are now antiquated. In showing that, under their rule, the modern proletariat never existed, they forget that the modern bourgeoisie is the necessary offspring of their own form of society.

<For the rest, so little do they conceal the reactionary character of their criticism that their chief accusation against the bourgeois amounts to this, that under the bourgeois régime a class is being developed which is destined to cut up root and branch the old order of society.

<What they upbraid the bourgeoisie with is not so much that it creates a proletariat as that it creates a revolutionary proletariat.

<In political practice, therefore, they join in all coercive measures against the working class; and in ordinary life, despite their high-falutin phrases, they stoop to pick up the golden apples dropped from the tree of industry, and to barter truth, love, and honour, for traffic in wool, beetroot-sugar, and potato spirits.(2)

<As the parson has ever gone hand in hand with the landlord, so has Clerical Socialism with Feudal Socialism.

<Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the State? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.

<B. Petty-Bourgeois Socialism
<The feudal aristocracy was not the only class that was ruined by the bourgeoisie, not the only class whose conditions of existence pined and perished in the atmosphere of modern bourgeois society. The medieval burgesses and the small peasant proprietors were the precursors of the modern bourgeoisie. In those countries which are but little developed, industrially and commercially, these two classes still vegetate side by side with the rising bourgeoisie.

<In countries where modern civilisation has become fully developed, a new class of petty bourgeois has been formed, fluctuating between proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen.

<In countries like France, where the peasants constitute far more than half of the population, it was natural that writers who sided with the proletariat against the bourgeoisie should use, in their criticism of the bourgeois régime, the standard of the peasant and petty bourgeois, and from the standpoint of these intermediate classes, should take up the cudgels for the working class. Thus arose petty-bourgeois Socialism. Sismondi was the head of this school, not only in France but also in England.

<This school of Socialism dissected with great acuteness the contradictions in the conditions of modern production. It laid bare the hypocritical apologies of economists. It proved, incontrovertibly, the disastrous effects of machinery and division of labour; the concentration of capital and land in a few hands; overproduction and crises; it pointed out the inevitable ruin of the petty bourgeois and peasant, the misery of the proletariat, the anarchy in production, the crying inequalities in the distribution of wealth, the industrial war of extermination between nations, the dissolution of old moral bonds, of the old family relations, of the old nationalities.

<In its positive aims, however, this form of Socialism aspires either to restoring the old means of production and of exchange, and with them the old property relations, and the old society, or to cramping the modern means of production and of exchange within the framework of the old property relations that have been, and were bound to be, exploded by those means. In either case, it is both reactionary and Utopian.

<Its last words are: corporate guilds for manufacture; patriarchal relations in agriculture.

<Ultimately, when stubborn historical facts had dispersed all intoxicating effects of self-deception, this form of Socialism ended in a miserable fit of the blues.

<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, February 1848, Manifesto of the Communist Party, Chapter III. Socialist and Communist Literature

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm

If you're serious about actually understanding Marxism, not the liberalized, toothless version that treats worker co-ops as the end goal, you need to ground yourself in foundational theory, not vague market-friendly nonsense.

Start with Engels for a solid orientation:

"Principles of Communism" lays out the basics in Q&A format: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

"Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" helps contrast real scientific socialism with moralistic daydreams: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engels_Socialism_Utopian_and_Scientific.pdf

Before diving into Capital, it's worth getting a grip on Marx’s political economy:

"Value, Price and Profit", dissects surplus value and wages under capitalism: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/value-price-profit.pdf

"Wage Labor and Capital", earlier and simpler, good to pair with the above: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/wage-labour-capital.pdf

To clarify the transition from capitalism to socialism and the current stages of communism (hint: socialism is not “co-ops in a free market in competition”), Marx’s “Critique of the Gotha Programme” is essential: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Critque_of_the_Gotha_Programme.pdf

If Engels' intro texts speak to you, level up with "Anti-Dühring", it covers philosophy, political economy, and socialism in a comprehensive Marxist framework: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/anti_duhring.pdf

A text that is important to read and understand the dictatorship of the proletariat and the Paris Commune, which had its errors that Marx criticized and which served as a lesson for carrying out a successful communist revolution, as was done by the Bolsheviks, based on what was learned in the text called "The Civil War in France." The lesson is the opposite of decentralization, fear of acting, or fear of appropriating banks and controlling them for the sake of the domination of the proletariat for fear of causing chaos:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/

Another text that analyzes the class struggle in France with the 1848 revolution also helps to understand the dictatorship of the proletariat and what happens to the petty bourgeoisie when it considers itself superior to the proletarians, betraying them, not seeing their common interest, and what its reward is for wanting to identify with the bourgeoisie, which is to be discarded by the bourgeoisie. The text is called "The Class Struggles in France, 1848 to 1850" with the link below:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/

Then there’s Lenin, essential for anyone who doesn’t want to be co-opted by reformists afraid of revolution:

"The State and Revolution", the real Marxist theory of the state and dictatorship of the proletariat: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/

"Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism", explains monopoly capital and financial domination: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

"What Is To Be Done?", revolutionary organization and building a vanguard party: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/

"Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder", a guide to dealing with pseudo-left idealists and opportunists: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/

>>2720793
>>2720579
>Then there’s Lenin, essential for anyone who
wants to be vulnerable to reformists and ultimately fail at a creating a workers party.

Anything from Anton Pannekoek will service you much better, starting with worker councils:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1947/workers-councils.htm

>>2720772
>>2720785
another day, another group of DSAers upset

>>2720819
>DSSA
miss me with that shit

>>2720683
Fuck I had an effortpost to respond to it but it died.
In short; capitalism has a passive way of degrading traditional culture (enclosing on public space and individual time) and an active one (the culture industry promoting its own commodified culture at the expense of uncommodifyable social culture).
Beyond that you have a lot of despooking to do but I would read into things like the Greenback Party (a multiracial coalition of the working class that was broken by Bourbon Democrats post-reconstruction through the use of racebaiting and segregationism). You will find burgher Marxists who hate traditional culture (usually their own ethnic backgrounds more than others) but the resuscitation of social culture is what will help us liberate ourselves. The South Africans understood this, the Palestinians and Kurds understand this. It's time we learnt it too.

>>2720819
The audacity to say that to someone who suggests worker councils. I have more hatred for them than any sort of hate you can muster in your entire lifespan.

>>2720832
>The audacity
get over yourself infantile

>>2720783
Idk if youve tried to get third world wagies to read that stuff, but I have and they all find the manifesto too difficult. Marx for beginners + just play cookie clicker is where I've found most success.

>>2720790
I can't unlearn my race or the realities of how that causes me to be perceived. I can't unlearn how I feel about my homeland and my people. I can't unlearn real actual experiences I have had with a spirituality that actually helped me.
Anyone who expects me to just disown my entire ancestry
>which forms all of us, whether we like it or not
is actually deranged and doesn't have a healthy relationship with themselves.

>>2720829
Yes, I agree with this sentiment.
Democrats could literally get every White Southern vote right now. All it would take is a bit of Dixiecrat and actually doing something for the Working Class instead of people who hate us because we exist and live a certain way.
But that implies I suppose Democrats are really left or want a solution
>nobody does
This is why I'm a Secessionist. It's totally pointless to expect real change in the current Federal system. It can't exist without the MIC and Capitalism and it knows it.

why the fuck are people seriously engaging with this spooked polyp that obviously have some form of brain damage and is just lost in his stupid fucking life because instead of building on empathy and understanding of the world he got high on spiritualism and alt right looser shit

OP here again.
I want to say, first, I really appreciate everyone who has interfaced with me and talked to me since I posted this. I thoroughly appreciate it.
I have been thinking and I thought I would share some of what I am thinking in the hopes it will help people point me the right way.
The beginning of my disenchantment with the Right was their total, abject failure to accomplish anything. It really seems like most of them don't actually believe in what they say that they do or it's some weird fetish. Even so it seems like they really don't fucking care about benefitting my people; they take advantage of our social, religious and domestic values and the fact the Mainstream Left hates us all by default because of these things. They act as if you can't be someone (((Right))) while still not believing Capitalism is good or that the current dichotomy is good.
Well
>novel idea here
maybe promise to address the issues within our communities and don't lecture us about the evils of
>checks notes
"Being born White and Cis while adhering to a Christian religion"
Then maybe we'd be more on board.

>>2724641
>point me the right way.
read everything here >>2543514
thats it, its that simple

Honestly, try reading some good fiction. It helps you build empathy. Theory is important, but what pulled me away from right-wing and liberal ideology was actually feeling for people and their struggles. You need that empathy first. If the deaths of countless children in Gaza leave you cold or make you giggle, then you have a problem.

>>2724655
I think it's a myth Right-wingers aren't empathetic. They are, just selective in their empathy. Which maybe isn't necessarily a bad thing. Lots of people are out there taking advantage of empathetic people.

>>2724681
https://theauthoritarians.org

There's two distinct clusters, the bootlickers (Right-Wing Authoritarians) and the boots (Social-Dominants).

>>2724683
new libslop just dropped

is this the virginia nazi who used to spam "debate me threads" on /leftypol/? you type exactly like him

>>2724681
If you're very selective in your empathy I don't consider that empathy. Doesn't mean you have to accept bad shit but this is on a very broad humanity wide scope

>>2724705
I have zero sympathy for the bourgeois.

>>2724710
No one said anything about sympathy which is a different thing altogether

>>2724641
shut up.

>>2720579
>Southern Nationalism
Are you a fed? Southern Nationalism is liberal

>>2720579
>I Want to Leave the Right
Learn the ways of the left. Particularly Marxism-Leninism.

>>2725462
palpatine was a fascist, thoughbeit

i would advise you seek salvation in a religion before you secularise your redemption, politically. many convicts with ruined lives turn to Christ and feel contented, so i would suggest this. if not christianity and you want to feel a bit more manly, maybe Islam. if you are more mystical, maybe Buddhism. either way, you sound ungrounded, so find a rock to build your church upon. ❤️

>>2724701
Nah I'm not a Virginian even. So whoever that is, search me.

>>2724705
Is it wrong to have empathy more immediately for people closer to you than total strangers?

>>2724710
Doesn't Marx somewhere in Capital say that most of the bourgeoisie are just the by-products of a sytem they didn't choose and were born into, just like the proletariat?
I seem to recall that line somewhere.

>>2725453
Lots of my core ideas used to be described as, "liberal," back when that word meant anything. Basically no political term means anything anymore.

>>2725462
trvke

>>2725888
Why not just be independent? I'm a communist adjacent independent. You don't have to join a club or look for a new label. Nobody on either side these days has read the Federalists or Anti-Federalists or cares about the Constitution. I don't understand what made you want to belong to the right but at least it's good you want to break free, but you're going to have to sort this shit yourself.

Hung around the right and their whole personality is just racism and heil hitler. Only reason why I was drawn to it was because of the memes they make.

Back to basics. What is essential for inner peace? Hold fast to what is good and discard the bad.

>>2725462
Truth fears no scrutiny

>>2720883
>>2720891
>>2724641
Nationalism was born from liberalism itself, with the bourgeoisie forming national markets to destroy local cultures. Nationalist ideology was born by destroying the very local cultures of the internal peoples within a country, constructing an invented abstraction for the bourgeoisie to create the modern state.

Traditionalism offers nothing but being a useful idiot for finance capital, to then be discarded. All the nostalgia you feel is merely a refusal to see the development of current financial capitalism as the inevitable result of the decline in capitalist profit rates, which cannot be prevented. The past you fantasize about or wish to return to does not exist and never existed. You should stop clinging to illusions of seeing other workers as competition, believing in the discourse that Marx debunked in "Value, Price and Profit"—myths such as the struggle for higher workers' wages causing inflation—when the truth depends on the class struggle of workers in solidarity with one another as a class, and not abandoning another group of workers to be exploited more intensively by the capitalist.

Any separatism you fantasize about in the southern United States is not possible because the entire southern economy is integrated with financialized capitalist imperialism, and there is no national or regional bourgeoisie to carry out this type of separation.

All third-position groups were born from gangs and paramilitary groups that attacked workers with the police who organized against the interests of their bosses (hence the emergence of the Red Guard for the self-defense of these workers and their communities against the bourgeoisie and their henchmen). The very concepts of neoliberalism in current states have embryonic origins in privatizations (such as the privatization of German workers' pensions by private entities for speculation), the flexibilization of labor laws, and the purchase of bank dividends, which were carried out by third-position parties as a prototype of neoliberalism.

Everyone should serve only the supremacy of the proletariat to socialize the economy in solidarity with the workers of the world; otherwise, you are merely a lackey of financial capitalism, deluding yourself with fantasies only to be discarded, as is the fate of reactionaries. The only culture that should exist will be that of a socialist economy within an economy of economic sovereignty. Your feelings are irrelevant.

>>2725881
Empathy is irrelevant. You must follow the class interest to serve the political domination of the proletariat in solidarity with the workers of the world, to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, abolish private property, abolish market competition—that is, abolish the anarchy of production—abolish exploitative social classes such as capitalists, speculators, and landowners, and make it impossible for the petty bourgeoisie to exist so that the economy can be collectively planned without following the logic of profit.

>>2720579


>Southern Nationalism probably being the biggest example

League of the South?

I was too.

I ain't much of anything anymore because, as others have warned, anything you find on the left is every bit as fucked up as anything you'll find among Michael Hill's goons. Suburban kids, sexual deviants, and fentheads sitting around pretending they're black panthers. I was an Occupy Anarchist before I was a Southnat, and the Left has only gotten worse since those days.

I'm not much of anything anymore. At the end of the day, I just don't think most of the problems facing mankind have solutions. I guess I'm sitting with Jackson Hinkel and rooting for the Iranians, but even that's less a matter of conviction and more me hoping to see a System I hate bleed.

I could have been a good Hinklist, I think, but it's been very hard to take him seriously ever since Russia's quagmire and Assad's ouster. And I don't have as much hope as I want to for Iran. MAGA communism/internationism/third-worldism just feels like a cruel scam intended to give ZOG an excuse to kill brown people.

On that point, I don't think I can ever give up the idea that:

1. There's a Government, it governs in the manner of a hostile Occupation, and it's largely Zionist. A Government Occupied by Zionists or GOZ, if you will.
   
2. From usury to pornography to war profiteering to (what sure as hell look like) ritual child sacrifice, GOZ is involved in and perpetuates pretty much everything in the world that might have traditionally been defined as "evil."
   
3. The GOZ seems hellbent on controlling practically every aspect of every country in the advanced portions of the world, and is rapidly coming to dominate what little remains outside.
   
4. GOZ longs for a day when most people who think, act, and yes LOOK like me no longer exist. It despises my culture, my worldview, and my bloodline and it wants to destroy it.
   
   

Give me a leftist movement that's willing to concede that Jews are fundamentally different from whites (blacknats get this wrong), that they really do pretty much control the world, and that their global control apparatus needs to be dismantled for the good of the white race and indeed the good of all races, including those not-elite Jews whom they so often sacrifice in their power plays (i.e. most of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust or October 7). Give me that and maybe tone down the feminism and gayness and I will HAPPILY accept a union job, free healthcare, and environmentalism.

I wouldn't even care that much about immigration under this condition, since dismantling globalized neoliberal capitalism and the exploitation of the Global South would lead to less economic pressure towards the imperial cores.

As HP Lovecraft realized before he died, a lot of our problems could be at least as easily solved through socialism as they could be through aristocracy.

>>2729311
>
>Any separatism you fantasize about in the southern United States is not possible because the entire southern economy is integrated with financialized capitalist imperialism, and there is no national or regional bourgeoisie to carry out this type of separation.

In my anarcho (and before that, lolbertarian) days, I imagined that as the empire collapsed the South would be abandoned by Yankeedom and becoming a land of hardy Jeffersonian farmer-survivalist types. In hindsight, this seems unlikely. More realistic is that someone after Trump would pull a Constantine and pull an Eastern Roman Empire in Atlanta. Southeastern Roman Empire.

I did eventually grow up an put away childish things. Dixie's never going to fight ZOG. Dixie IS ZOG. Rothschilds funded the Confederacy, and you can't fling a dead cat down here without hitting a Mason's Hall.

I think there might actually be some merit to the idea of anti-Fed Southern seperatism that isn't directly tied to the Old Confederacy.

>>2732816
I relate to this, so hard.
Best Wishes, Anon.

>>2720883
I mean, you don't gotta disown shit. Just recognize that if you work, you should rightfully own the fruits of that work - and not a penny more.

Remember that you have more in common with a factory worker in India than you do with the rich asshole that lives in a plantation home thirty miles away.

you're weak and we don't want you. stay on the right where you belong, coward

OP back again.
I think, generally I'm leaning more into Anarchism of a stripe. I have sensibilities that are still well uh, Conservative kinda? But I really don't feel the need to force other people to live how I think they should, nor do I believe in really using the State to do so.
I do possess various Marxist outlooks on economics as I think has been evident from what I have been talking about, but I also feel like from my own study of history that
>none of these elaborate state-oriented movements or systems really create the kind of society i want
>all of them just sort of seem very inherently Anti-White or Western
Like I said, I also don't feel the need to force my beliefs on anyone or prostyletize. Also burnt out on that. If reasoned discussion doesn't convince you I don't have the desire to argue about shit. Discourse and dialogue is one thing, so is criticism, but I'm not personally in the business of ideologically-motivated arm-twisting.
Just leave me and mine alone and let us figure out what we want for ourselves, that make sense? I'm prepared to pay the cost to live and be free.

>>2747361
>Anti-White or Western
western civilization = class society = the state
conservatives use the term "western civilization" to whitewash the exploitation and opppresion of those in the lower levels on class society by the tiny minority on top
being an anarchist is being against the state in all its forms, if you become one and actually do anarchist things you will eventually start being called anti-west or anti-white, if this doesn't happen its because you just kept living in a way that doesnt oppose the state and therfor you were not really an anarchist and just a liberal with radical aesthetics (most anarchists in our times are like this)
so its seems your "leaving the right" path currently is just moving towards becoming a nafoid of some sort so you are not leaving the right at all
i suggest you keep reading the stuff on the sticky

>>2747369
I don't think of Western Civilization in that way, though. I see it as more of a historic and cultural shared experience and outlook. Maybe more of a canon of sorts? Maybe that's just me being White. I don't possess any fondness for really for imperialism or animosity towards oppressed people, globally. It just sorta routinely feels like no one cares about me and mine, at all, even though we have been trampled by the same system.

>>2747381
>I don't think of Western Civilization in that way, though
regardless of all the "good" things it has created, at its base there has always been the oppresion and exploitation of the many by the few by the means of the state, thats the material base of it
thats why I'm telling you being an anarchist is antithetical to any feelings of needing to protect this
what you call "western civilization" is currently just producing genocide and ecocide, its past its expiration date, it needs to be overcome
>It just sorta routinely feels like no one cares about me and mine
you have a roof, internet, most likely food and water, meanwhile palestinians are getting genocided by the "western civilization" you care about so fondly, if you think no one cares about you imagine how they must feel
stop being so short sighted

>>2747385
>using an actual Nativist Gangster as an own to someone like me with my political history
Is this an example of, "Left Can't Meme?"

>>2747388
>regardless of all the "good" things it has created, at its base there has always been the oppression and exploitation of the many by the few by the means of the state, thats the material base of it
Do show me one large, centralized civilization of any kind that is on the scale of the West that wasn't exactly the same.
>"Man is born free, but everywhere he is placed in chains."
>thats why I'm telling you being an anarchist is antithetical to any feelings of needing to protect this
I don't really care to try because I'm not personally going to stick my neck out for a romantic idea not shared by people with the same heritage as me which only serves to keep us distracted by D&C culture wars.
But that being said I don't see how being some sort of rootless vagabond makes me less exploitable by Capitalism, vis-a-vis my own identity.
>laying palestinian genocide at my feet
I've been Anti-Zionist since I was old enough to have a political opinion and leave the Jewvangelical Plantation, so I don't get putting this at my feet. I don't oppose their struggle like at all but I'm not gonna pretend Third Worldists wanna do anything but fucking kill me and take my shit.

>>2747389
The quote applies. If a "nativist gangster" says 1+1=2 I won't disagree. Be less emotional and more scientific. your individual desires and moral conundrums about theoretically "wanting" to do something don't matter. Class society produces undisciplined class struggle. Undisciplined class struggle produces failure after failure. These failures create revolutionary theory which results in organized class struggle. Organized class struggle also results in failure but continues to refine theory and practice until success results. These are collective, historical, material forces. Your moral conundrums literally couldn't be less relevant. Rightoids come here expecting a program of conversion and forgiveness tailored to their individual brainworms.

It's impossible to take any "alt-right" person seriously. Especially since the whole ideology was created part and parcel by Jeffry Epstein.

Anyone who was Q is a liability considering how easily they fall for propaganda

>>2747392
I'm sorry, who are any of you to me that I need your absolution?
Frankly I've been pleasantly surprised by the information and dialogue I've received.
Unlike most Rightoids I actually fucking read. I have a decent political science background already - or am I asking too much to speak to someone who is also reasonably literate and experienced? Thankfully, it doesn't seem like aside from the odd troll I was asking that much.

>>2747391
>Do show me one large, centralized civilization of any kind that is on the scale of the West that wasn't exactly the same.
there isn't, thats why marxists and anarchists don't give a damn about this clash of civilizations drivel, its you guys that pretend western civilization is the wholesome chungus one and that everything else is le bad
>I don't really care to try
Try what? I don't understand what you are saying
>Third Worldists
Who are these guys? Show me one "third worldist" political party.

>>2747395
None of you I think actually now the history of 4chan if you actually believe the Alt-Right or /pol/ was created by Epstein. I was literally there watching Moot sperg at Stormfront edgelords on /news/. /pol/ was going to happen and odds are he met Epstein to get him to finance Canvas.
Also the Alt-Right was about as broad as the Alt-Left, if I may call it that. So to suggest that I was into Qanon is just a bit of a rough assumption on your part.

>>2720579
Have you considered leaving /leftypol/ and fucking off back to reddit? This could be a solution for all your problems.

>>2747398
I care about my own culture and heritage. Is that some kind of a problem if it motivates me to do the right thing? I have never believed or acted like Western Civilization was a spotless lamb, but since I just came from a place full of them I'm not gonna LARP as something I'm not either and try to transplant myself into an identity about as alien to me as Uranus.

>>2747402
It's good to know no matter what fucking wing of this insane asylum I'm in, some memes and accusations always stay the same.

>>2747405
>I care about my own culture and heritage.
You can care about whatever you want, but the world changes no matter how much you try to hold to the past.
>Is that some kind of a problem if it motivates me to do the right thing?
Whats the right thing?
>LARP as something I'm not either and try to transplant myself into an identity about as alien to me as Uranus.
And who is asking you to do this? No one cares about your identity, there are bigger issues (capitalism).

>>2747409
but you actually would fit pretty well in r/NAFO

>>2747361
>Just leave me and mine alone and let us figure out what we want for ourselves
the fact you still dont understand you cant just say "fuck you I got mine" and live in autarky means your rightoid brainworms might have done permanent damage. You cry about a lack of community and empathy while being an egocentric narcissistic asshole.

>>2747405
>I care about my own culture and heritage
communists are infinitely better at preserving whats valuable in these things (cool cultural clothes, holidays, music, good food, language) than the retarded conservatives who fetishize a nonexistent past while selling off everything and importing the globalized mercantilist culture

>>2747414
>the world changes
Progress is not always synonymous with improvement.
>Whats the right thing?
IDK, as a SouthNat I'm kind of tired of watching Southerners
>of both races of the traditional make-up of the South
all be treated like shit and divided. It has been really unsettling in my life in my general political journey to watch us, "grow out," of the past conflicts and then see them all come back. Meanwhile Capitalists continue to plunder us, poison our natural resources and treat us all like slaves all while cheapening and commercializing our identity and culture.

>>2747495
It's more like I've been burned in my life enough relying on other people to not be foolish enough to keep doing so or signing on for something that just exploits me in the end and doesn't actually give a fuck about me.
>You cry about a lack of community and empathy
Because there isn't one? What am I supposed to do about that? You say I'm the narcissistic egocentric asshole, you been outside lately? I've seen plenty of Leftist frustrations with organizing, don't act like I'm the first person to discover this problem. I'm just dealing with it. I'm one person. Maybe I'll get proven wrong one day about the general state of things but I don't see any unity to be found much of anywhere. Late Stage Capitalism has done an absolute motherfucker on our collaborative capabilities - I can't deprogram everyone.

>>2747501
Frankly I'm starting to feel this way about Communists.
>fetishize a nonexistent past
Communist countries also often rewrite their own history to fit with a Marxist interpretation, so I'm really not sure how people choose to relate to and interpret their heritage in odd ways is uniquely a conservative thing.
>selling off everything and importing the globalized mercantilist culture
As someone with Jeffersonian, Agrarian and Anti-Federalist sentiments I really have seen and experienced this a lot and noticed it from a young age.

>>2747401

What is the alt-left? As in communists, the actual left, and not democrats?

Also, yeah. The ideas were created for you and you were propagandized to believe them. The only ideology is ruling class ideology and Epstein was a mover and shaker in that class, and created the alt-right movement wholecloth. He probably made sure it would be antisemitic to double down on the cognitive dissonance of the deplorable chud base of the alt-right.

>>2747674
>communists, the actual left, and not democrats?
Yes. But it sure seems like you guys are always ready to act for Democrats. To be fair, the Alt-Right has had the same problematic relationship with Republicans.
If you really actually think Epstein created the Alt-Right, wholecloth, you are a fool who wasn't there on the inside. But I have no interest in defending these people - it's not the purpose of my thread - but I will say the assertion is patently false.

>>2747626
>Progress is not always synonymous with improvement.
I never mentioned progress, I just said things change, this is inevitable, and between us I don't really believe there is such a thing as "progress" in the sense most leftists use it, but this doesn't mean holding to stuff from the old world that will inevitably stop existing makes sense, reactionaries think change is something thats being imposed to them from the outside when is actually just a consequences of our existence being inseparable from what we call time

OP here again.
I have a new similar question for you folks. Again, I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to interface.
Lots of Leftists I have met and talked to over the years have all decried, "Rainbow Communism," to me. But I never see Leftists ever go attack or deal with these things even if they admit it's a PsyOp that destroyed the credibility of Leftism. It created the Alt-Right as managed Blowback. The entire thing served no purpose but to continue to solidify the damage of the Cold War in terms of any achievement of Class Consciousness.
But while the Right always tries to police harmful radicals the Left is very content to let this vanguard exist even if it hurts their position.
Why is that?

>>2756096
something something useful idiots

>>2756129
But they're not useful. They're the reason over half of working class White Americans who overwhelmingly value their way of life and their religion want nothing to do with you. At minimum, these people want our total extermination and our wealth and property to be distributed at our expense. At bare minimum they want our total political disenfranchisement and our entire lives to be turned into a daily humiliation ritual.
Why would they ever consider anyone Left-of-Center when these are the people they tolerate and endorse?

>>2756096
>>2756313
You're still internalizing a lot of bullshit ideas. If you want to actually leave the right you have to let go of them.

>>2756332
Let go of what - my grasp on reality? Let go of a lived experience in politics?
The Woke Left is nothing short of trying to create South Africa II or Global Zimbabwe, no matter how destructive it will be - even for them.
Anti-White and inorganic LGBT+ Radicalism must be distanced entirely from the Modern Left. The Left also needs to remember, again, that being a patriot for your actual blood-and-soil and not some abstract bourgeoisie(SP?) identity isn't antithetical to communism.
But the good news is you'll probably successfully exterminate White people in America at this point before the Left does something about this. So hey, I guess Epstein's PsyOps are gonna work after all.
It was also by-the-by a lived experience I had to reflect on that made me give up my own racist and/or intrinsically anti-LGBT+ ideas that made me eventually decide I wasn't gonna stay with the Right anyway. But hey, just keep feeding the D&C because it feels good I guess. There would be no Alt-Right without the SJWs, just remember that.

>>2756484
uygha you need to touch grass. Unironically. Stop being hysterical