Going out on a real limb here and being genuine.
I've got a really long history I'm not gonna Dear Diary about, but I've been around a bit.
Even though I was part of various groups that are Alt-Right I have always had various Left-of-Center beliefs. I felt like I was the only one that understood the
>socialist
aspects of various camps for a while.
Just generally after 18-something years, I'm tired of this crap. These are some of the most useless, in-fighting, bought-out, dogshit people I have ever dealt with
>and I've been to prison so I have a wide berth of experience with shit people
and I want off the fucking ride.
I can't say I don't believe in some
>"Right-of-Center"
things and I feel like they're hard-coded and baked into me. Some aspects I don't fully buy into, but I don't feel like walking away from because I don't necessarily feel like they are not incompatible to me with various aspects of Leftism.
>Southern Nationalism probably being the biggest example
>A few religious beliefs
I actually have read lots of Leftist literature like Marx and Engels and a few others. Maybe they aren't really
>Leftist
but I guess maybe it goes in that direction, more like, "cLaSsIcAl LiBeRaLiSm" idk.
My life has changed in the last few years. I'm disconnected from everything. I want to just move on from these losers. I hate to say it but if they were the people they LARP'd as I like to think I'd still be one of them.
But they're not; they're all dogshit losers.
I've always had this, "Fly-on-the-Wall," thing where I can float around places and get along. I like sincerity, I like conviction. I don't necessarily care how crazy it is sometimes, just be real - be honest. I've had lots of Leftist friends and eventually many of my beliefs have cost me them. At the same time almost none of my
>"Right-Wing"
friends have stuck around.
I think this has all be a rambling mess
Hopefully I get a good conversation out of this. I guess I'm looking for direction, someone with a similar story.
Very happy to help you on your journey but gonna warn you
>Just generally after 18-something years, I'm tired of this crap. These are some of the most useless, in-fighting, bought-out, dogshit people I have ever dealt with
We have plenty of those too. They mostly self-select by hjoining Trotskyist parties but still.
>>2720579>I feel like they're hard-coded and baked into me. Some aspects I don't fully buy into, but I don't feel like walking away from because I don't necessarily feel like they are not incompatible to me with various aspects of Leftism.I think that's pretty common. Your cultural background also shapes you, and that's there, and at the same time you can also make up your own mind and think for yourself. Also, in reality, the left is a relative term. It's actually rare in history for organized political movements to be left in every aspect. You can't divide society that clearly into a left and right either, insofar that many people can have a leftist attitude towards one thing while having a rightist attitude towards another thing and those things can even be linked in contradictory ways. It all seems hopelessly confused but people treating each other with mutual respect (basis of solidarity) couldn't hurt.
>>2720591Believe me, I know. Like I said I've floated a fair amount. I've heard all the smears about
>Rainbow Communism>Trotskyites>Third-Worldists>Soviets Aren't REAL Commies>Leninists aren't REAL Commieson and on and on and on, dude.
But I had a sticking conversation as an older guy I was more receptive to. At the same time I don't feel like getting fucking books thrown at me; I've read enough.
Lemme tell you: having a background in Reactionary TradCat Monarchism and reading Kapital and seeing Marx go
>"Yeah it's the Protestants who ruined everything, Catholic Christendom had a Based economic system"caused me to put the book down and just stare at a wall for a while while I contemplated how many lies I'd been told.
Hate to say it to y'all but I had the same reaction when I read, "Mein Kampf," the first time.
Like I said I know I am pushing against some hard boundaries here but I got shit-else to do today and I didn't even know this was a real site. So I figured I'd ask what they thought.
I think my biggest thing is it seems like Leftists are serious about what they believe more generally than Rightoids. Rightoids have been All Hat, No Cattle my whole life. I'm sick of being hurt, risking jail and isolating myself and feeling like no one actually believes in it as much as I do.
Blame the Autism ig, I don't know how to be fake.
lmao
>>2720579Welcome to this psychiatric hospital.
If you are worried about sectarianism, I'm afraid there's no other political movement - or any kind of movement in the whole history of the world, for what matters - more plagued by sectarianism than socialism/communism/whatever you want to call it.
That said, there's a huge supply of dogshit people. I guess I could tell you about a few national leaders of a construction workers' trade union I worked with and especially one of them was such an unhinged malignant narcissists - and everyone run cover for him - that I had to quit that fucking job at the hq after just a month. Aside from the fact they suck money from workers and sell them out, yet you see many functionaries having portraits of Marx in their offices. I must confess that for a time after the experience I thought I would have abandoned any leftist idea, but after a while I felt even more radicalised. In fact I got what someone meant when they said "social democracy is the left wing of fascism".
>>2720614Last Lefty friend I lost kinda ran me against a wall textually over me being a Southern Nationalist. At the end of the day I'm kind of Anarchistic, maybe in the Paine sort of way? Maybe that makes sense. I think Anti-Federalism always had this sort of thing in it.
At the same time like Rousseau I accept nations create governments, not the other way around. Strong hands are needed and other times people really can be left alone to manage themselves. I have always felt like the latter.
Although granted I was in very Authoritarian movements, the thing I noticed as an American is that
>gee it seems like nobody in this movement would ever follow Fuhrerprinzip because they always assume they will be the one in chargesorta like how all Tankies think they'll be a Commissar.
Anyway, I'd just rather have conversations and dialogue and figure shit out that way. I've lurked for about 2 days, gonna keep on besides this here thread. Hope maybe I'll bump into people who wanna talk or someone who has a similar backstory.
>>2720638As I said above, yeah I've seen it all. At least the Left is honest about division. The Right acts monolithic, inside and outside of clubhouses.
>Aside from the fact they suck money from workers and sell them out, yet you see many functionaries having portraits of Marx in their officesDude, the stories I could tell that would get me banned on similar shit in the Far Right. It's one reason I left. I got tired of fakes, phonies, degens and imposters. Just serial fucking grifters all the way around. In years of Street Action I think behind closed doors I have fought more of my own team than anyone on the opposing side because that's just how it goes.
Sick of being this outlier. Sick of feeling like it's all just a scam.
>>2720579>I want to leave the righthonest question, what's stopping you?
>>2720654Maybe I already have. Maybe it's a lack of anywhere else to go. Maybe it's not wanting to betray things I still believe. Maybe it's just been a part of me so long I'm not sure what lies beyond. Maybe I've kind of accepted being adrift, but I can still remember the optimism of being a young Alt-Righter and really thinking we were about to do something and good things were coming for my people.
Maybe it was watching people all run behind Trump that was the real beginning. Maybe it was only now that I've truly realized I don't belong here anymore. Maybe it's being disillusioned by the lifestyle and value-sets they all offer turning out to be worthless - mostly because of how Capitalism has completely fucking destroyed moral human society and no amount of running off innawoods with your internet-acquired TradWife is gonna solve anything.
Call it an attention-grabber title, but it's my feeling.
>>2720579>Southern Nationalism probably being the biggest example>A few religious beliefsLatter is fine. Former is a question are you a culturalist (A respect for the traditional [white] culture of the American South) or are you gonna Lost Cause us? Lost Causerism (and a general rejection of the righteous fight to end slavery) is just not gonna fly. For the former of these two, would be worth reading into groups like the Young Patriots, Redneck Revolt, and even just generally into the Southern Traditional Culture revitalisation movement. I mean Pete Seeger et al. are well known but you have the likes of the Windborne Singers today keeping the flame alive.
>>2720660if you understand that capitalism is the root of most problems, you're already further left than 90% of western "leftists", who prioritize idpol over class. I think you just need to find leftist friends who are OK with being edgy sometimes. maybe look into what the ACP is up to? they have chapters across the states and are unapologetically pro american.
>>2720617>I think my biggest thing is it seems like Leftists are serious about what they believe more generally than Rightoids. Rightoids have been All Hat, No Cattle my whole life.I think the left is defined by its ideas more than the right, which is mainly after power, and is defined more by their tactics and whatever they have on hand to dominate the immediate situation. This in a way their strength. There are communists, leftists etc. who I don't think are really leftists, or they might be and then mutate into a new kind of right as a result of some kind of historical transformation, but the left as a "normal" social phenomenon which exists (as normal as the right) really isn't afraid of being in the minority like the right is, or admitting its not strong enough (which might just be a fact) to assume leadership of a mass movement or seize power or whatever it is.
At least it seems that way to me. The left has a lot of problems but they are more tactical problems, like doing something stupid which backfires, but I think for the left to be the left really comes down to its underlying ideas more than for the right. The left also has to make tactical adjustments but needs to be self-aware that it's being tactical rather than upholding those tactical maneuverings as a matter of principle, because then it will find itself abandoning those ideas, and then it would cease to be the left. But the right can abandon whatever ideas it's using in the moment and it doesn't have a problem with this provided they're in power and can put a boot up your ass.
One skill of the left can also be to have the mental tools and skills on hand to force the right to reveal itself for what it is. That's often the case in international politics, like wars of aggression. Like rightists talking about peace, but the right loves to talk about peace because it's much easier to go and conquer somebody's ass if they're not willing to fight back.
>>2720641>At the end of the day I'm kind of Anarchistic, maybe in the Paine sort of way? There was a whole trend of American individualist anarchism in the 19th century that is pretty interesting. Thoreau. Lysander Spooner. Josiah Warren (video about him). Very American and anti-statist.
>sorta like how all Tankies think they'll be a Commissar.Yeah like the hangman.
>>2720661Oh boy, here comes the tough part for us all.
>Latter is fineIn what way? I have never in my life met a Leftist who wasn't an ironic 13 year-old that somehow made anything Marxist-rooted jive with Traditional Catholicism for example. Fuck I even think the religion now is kind of a bad joke - it doesn't serve the function of a religion, not in public life. It's a scattered mess and I no longer care enough to drive multiple hours to attend one community once a week. Been burned too much, but I can't deny what works for me spiritually.
>are you a culturalistI mean I think racial biology is kinda undeniable. I've lived it. I've watched how our declining place and a loss of our traditional values has not only opened us to Capitalists (carpetbaggers) but also the general degeneration of our quality of life.
I know the ugly sides of Labor history in the US, how Freedmen and immigrants have been used to totally cripple White Labor Movements especially in the South. Not once am I aware of any of them not deciding maybe we'd both be fine together if we learned to cooperate. Whites seem capable of that, but not Nons.
I do genuinely believe my people had as much right as anyone else to take up arms for a cause - that means losing is always on the table. I also don't see how we can preserve our Traditional Culture when Capitalists want to force alien cultures or hostile interpretations of our identity onto us - but that's me.
Which is another thing, BTW. I've never fully bought into strict Racial Nationalism. Every Redneck no matter how bigoted has a Black person or family they would try to keep in the Ethnostate. It's schizophrenic but it's true - if you live here you know that. I think we could work everything out for everyone, but outside agitators and Carpetbaggers thrive on exploiting divides.
>>2720670See, I don't think you can separate idpol from class. They do intersect but there's always elements of both influencing how people act. Being born in a barn doesn't make one a horse, but you know what I mean.
>ACPNo idea who that is. Also as for the last guy I replied to who said
>Redneck Revolt>Young PatriotsI watched what amounted to these groups die horrible, screaming deaths thanks to Rainbow Communists deciding they weren't real because they flew the Stars and Bars or dared to like themselves for being White Southerners. I'm honestly unaware of them still existing besides some people who drink together in the Everglades.
>>2720674>the Right is mainly after powerLma-the fuck-o where ??? They have had so many golden chances and talented people come and go and they do fucking absolutely nothing. If they are all about gaining power, goddamn me I've never seen them do it.
>SpoonerI want to like Spooner but I will never, ever, ever understand how someone looks at the Union and says they're Based. Not gonna get it. Centralization and the resulting Federal Government is how we got here. A decentralized confederation is actually by default unable to become this fucking haemonculus we are stuck in.
Say what you want about him, Lee's predictions about what the US would become was right.
>>2720698>Lma-the fuck-o where ??? They have had so many golden chances and talented people come and go and they do fucking absolutely nothing. If they are all about gaining power, goddamn me I've never seen them do it.It's an inherently conservative force, man. The point isn't to change conditions, it's just to take what currently exists and make it based or whatever. Or they try to revert to a set of conditions which were once an accomplished fact (but can't realize it). My point is that the right is essentially fraudulent.
just start listening to socialism for all audiobooks
no offense but if it took you this long you might be cooked lol good luck hope you leave rightards for good
also ignore the gay nazi flag he is a liberal (reactionary) retard
>>2720687you can't seperate them, but class should be recognized as more important than identity.
>No idea who that isamerican communist party
they're the only american communists who are actually recognized by foreign communist parties
>>2720731they are dengoids (liberals)
>>2720649Just to clarify, I have never taken part in organised politics of any kind. Outside shitposting here - and on previous incarnations on 8chan back in 2018 if I recall correctly - as an anon and talking with family about politics, I really never did anything like activism, going to demonstrations, joining groups. I only contemplated joining the labour party when I lived in England and Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader, but I was in a rural area pretty much far from the real action and local politics was dominated by the conservatives there. I was also busy with many different things and in a year or so I left the country for good.
Basically, I got the job at the union just because someone knowing one of their functionaries made my name to him - I wasn't asked beforehand, btw, but I got this call from this relative telling me I had to go and meet this faggot a week later. I couldn't say no and after all I was out of work, so let's try that.
Long story short, their office secretary was about to go in maternity leave a few months later and they were looking for a temporary sub but the idea was to keep the sub as permament if things went good even after the titular got back. But they also had another secretary already on sick leave because she had cancer. Fast forward a couple of months. I start working there. I was told for the first month I would have shadowed the titular secretary. In truth she was there only half of the days, she was an ADHD freak, completely schizo and chaotic in everything she did, everything hated her and basically, as soon as she wasn't around, 99% of people there immediately confided in me "thank god you look so organised! she's such a mess, but you'll surely sort everything out soon!". Unfortunately, she was in the graces of the big boss and basically she survived there for years because she was - let's say -
nice with the big boss, who was obviously the only one talking good about her - in fact, he idolised her. The boss was a genuine narcissist, toxic, unhinged and that bitch indulged him systematically for years. They even joked she was her
carer. I disliked that because it was clear there was an expectation to indulge the bastard, while I kept to doing my job clinically, professionally, and that's it. Obviously I had to cover for the other sick secretary too, but unfortunately I only got a single pay… Basically I had like fifteen or twenty people in my face every day, from start to finish, demanding me to do every kind of shit, from making coffee, to sort out their travels, payments, having to pretend to listen to their stupid personal gossip when they wanted me to listen, having to take external calls without having been instructed on what to say, organising meeting and events, and everyone had their fucking preferences and way they did things, so I had to go bespoke for every single bullshit. Plus the boss and a couple of other cunts dared to call me and send me messages outside of hours and a couple of times even on a Sunday. And basically I had to improvise everything because no one was capable to explain me even the most basic things, but than I did something and someone had their pet peeves because somewhat there was a correct way to do it and yada yada yada…
One morning, the big cunt - who that day was even off and he was opening his new home out of town, after he bragged he had spent 20000 euros in new furniture - called me and started picking on me for some of his bullshit. He was disrespectful once too much. I felt a nuclear detonation in my mind. I resigned with immediate effect on the morning. The "hr" guy and this other bigwig in the org basically bullied me into changing my resignation letter because I wrote clearly I was leaving because of the cunt's unacceptable and unhinged behaviour. I just had to say I was leaving for 'personal reasons'. I just wanted out then and there. Fuck them. I'm glad I left them for more than another month without a 'carer' in the middle of a scorching summer. I hope they all get lung cancer and die painfully because they keep smoking expensive cigars pretending they're Fidel, even if labour laws clearly states that workplaces must be smoke free. Btw, the big cunt was smoking 24/7 even in the face of her pregnant secretary.
>>2720747Stop projecting money man
>>2720765I have no money, I am a proper commie
>Believe me, I know. Like I said I've floated a fair amount. I've heard all the smears about
>Rainbow Communism
>Trotskyites
>Third-Worldists
>Soviets Aren't REAL Commies
>Leninists aren't REAL Commies
>on and on and on and on, dude.
Of course you would say this
>>2720766You are a proper liberal tool
Look man, just read "marx for beginners" by Rius and play a full gameplay of Cookie clicker.
Sounds like a joke but its the shortest and absolutely least mentally intensive path to becoming a commie.
>>2720778The shortest and least mentally taxing way to become a commie is to read the goddamn manifesto. Don’t know why everyone treats it like the plague.
>>2720747>implying hinkle doesn't turboglowkek
OP do NOT look up what the ACP president thinks about landlords and then compare it to what Adam Smith said about them
>>2720579i think its great that you want to improve and grow as a person, honestly i think the left could do a better job with accepting people who actually want to change for the better. that being said its not an overnight process, and these things take time. the things you may think are "hard coded" in to you, are not. it may take a while to unlearn these things but trust me, you can get there. we are not born with the beliefs we hold, we adopt them from the conditions around us. basically, you are not broken.
>>2720579I'll leave you with a quote from the Communist Manifesto to dispel some confusion and superstitions about the bourgeois state, so you don't cling stubbornly to reactionary or petty-bourgeois socialism instead of scientific socialism (Marxism):
<1. Reactionary Socialism<A. Feudal Socialism<Owing to their historical position, it became the vocation of the aristocracies of France and England to write pamphlets against modern bourgeois society. In the French Revolution of July 1830, and in the English reform agitation[A], these aristocracies again succumbed to the hateful upstart. Thenceforth, a serious political struggle was altogether out of the question. A literary battle alone remained possible. But even in the domain of literature the old cries of the restoration period had become impossible.(1)
<In order to arouse sympathy, the aristocracy was obliged to lose sight, apparently, of its own interests, and to formulate their indictment against the bourgeoisie in the interest of the exploited working class alone. Thus, the aristocracy took their revenge by singing lampoons on their new masters and whispering in his ears sinister prophesies of coming catastrophe.
<In this way arose feudal Socialism: half lamentation, half lampoon; half an echo of the past, half menace of the future; at times, by its bitter, witty and incisive criticism, striking the bourgeoisie to the very heart’s core; but always ludicrous in its effect, through total incapacity to comprehend the march of modern history.
<The aristocracy, in order to rally the people to them, waved the proletarian alms-bag in front for a banner. But the people, so often as it joined them, saw on their hindquarters the old feudal coats of arms, and deserted with loud and irreverent laughter.
<One section of the French Legitimists and “Young England” exhibited this spectacle.
<In pointing out that their mode of exploitation was different to that of the bourgeoisie, the feudalists forget that they exploited under circumstances and conditions that were quite different and that are now antiquated. In showing that, under their rule, the modern proletariat never existed, they forget that the modern bourgeoisie is the necessary offspring of their own form of society.
<For the rest, so little do they conceal the reactionary character of their criticism that their chief accusation against the bourgeois amounts to this, that under the bourgeois régime a class is being developed which is destined to cut up root and branch the old order of society.
<What they upbraid the bourgeoisie with is not so much that it creates a proletariat as that it creates a revolutionary proletariat.
<In political practice, therefore, they join in all coercive measures against the working class; and in ordinary life, despite their high-falutin phrases, they stoop to pick up the golden apples dropped from the tree of industry, and to barter truth, love, and honour, for traffic in wool, beetroot-sugar, and potato spirits.(2)
<As the parson has ever gone hand in hand with the landlord, so has Clerical Socialism with Feudal Socialism.
<Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the State? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.
<B. Petty-Bourgeois Socialism<The feudal aristocracy was not the only class that was ruined by the bourgeoisie, not the only class whose conditions of existence pined and perished in the atmosphere of modern bourgeois society. The medieval burgesses and the small peasant proprietors were the precursors of the modern bourgeoisie. In those countries which are but little developed, industrially and commercially, these two classes still vegetate side by side with the rising bourgeoisie.
<In countries where modern civilisation has become fully developed, a new class of petty bourgeois has been formed, fluctuating between proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen.
<In countries like France, where the peasants constitute far more than half of the population, it was natural that writers who sided with the proletariat against the bourgeoisie should use, in their criticism of the bourgeois régime, the standard of the peasant and petty bourgeois, and from the standpoint of these intermediate classes, should take up the cudgels for the working class. Thus arose petty-bourgeois Socialism. Sismondi was the head of this school, not only in France but also in England.
<This school of Socialism dissected with great acuteness the contradictions in the conditions of modern production. It laid bare the hypocritical apologies of economists. It proved, incontrovertibly, the disastrous effects of machinery and division of labour; the concentration of capital and land in a few hands; overproduction and crises; it pointed out the inevitable ruin of the petty bourgeois and peasant, the misery of the proletariat, the anarchy in production, the crying inequalities in the distribution of wealth, the industrial war of extermination between nations, the dissolution of old moral bonds, of the old family relations, of the old nationalities.
<In its positive aims, however, this form of Socialism aspires either to restoring the old means of production and of exchange, and with them the old property relations, and the old society, or to cramping the modern means of production and of exchange within the framework of the old property relations that have been, and were bound to be, exploded by those means. In either case, it is both reactionary and Utopian.
<Its last words are: corporate guilds for manufacture; patriarchal relations in agriculture.
<Ultimately, when stubborn historical facts had dispersed all intoxicating effects of self-deception, this form of Socialism ended in a miserable fit of the blues.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, February 1848, Manifesto of the Communist Party, Chapter III. Socialist and Communist Literaturehttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htmIf you're serious about actually understanding Marxism, not the liberalized, toothless version that treats worker co-ops as the end goal, you need to ground yourself in foundational theory, not vague market-friendly nonsense.
Start with Engels for a solid orientation:
"Principles of Communism" lays out the basics in Q&A format:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm"Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" helps contrast real scientific socialism with moralistic daydreams:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engels_Socialism_Utopian_and_Scientific.pdfBefore diving into Capital, it's worth getting a grip on Marx’s political economy:
"Value, Price and Profit", dissects surplus value and wages under capitalism:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/value-price-profit.pdf"Wage Labor and Capital", earlier and simpler, good to pair with the above:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/wage-labour-capital.pdfTo clarify the transition from capitalism to socialism and the current stages of communism (hint: socialism is not “co-ops in a free market in competition”), Marx’s “Critique of the Gotha Programme” is essential:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Critque_of_the_Gotha_Programme.pdfIf Engels' intro texts speak to you, level up with "Anti-Dühring", it covers philosophy, political economy, and socialism in a comprehensive Marxist framework:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/anti_duhring.pdfA text that is important to read and understand the dictatorship of the proletariat and the Paris Commune, which had its errors that Marx criticized and which served as a lesson for carrying out a successful communist revolution, as was done by the Bolsheviks, based on what was learned in the text called "The Civil War in France." The lesson is the opposite of decentralization, fear of acting, or fear of appropriating banks and controlling them for the sake of the domination of the proletariat for fear of causing chaos:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/Another text that analyzes the class struggle in France with the 1848 revolution also helps to understand the dictatorship of the proletariat and what happens to the petty bourgeoisie when it considers itself superior to the proletarians, betraying them, not seeing their common interest, and what its reward is for wanting to identify with the bourgeoisie, which is to be discarded by the bourgeoisie. The text is called "The Class Struggles in France, 1848 to 1850" with the link below:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/Then there’s Lenin, essential for anyone who doesn’t want to be co-opted by reformists afraid of revolution:
"The State and Revolution", the real Marxist theory of the state and dictatorship of the proletariat:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/"Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism", explains monopoly capital and financial domination:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/"What Is To Be Done?", revolutionary organization and building a vanguard party:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/"Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder", a guide to dealing with pseudo-left idealists and opportunists:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ >>2720793>>2720579>Then there’s Lenin, essential for anyone whowants to be vulnerable to reformists and ultimately fail at a creating a workers party.
Anything from Anton Pannekoek will service you much better, starting with worker councils:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1947/workers-councils.htm >>2720772>>2720785another day, another group of DSAers upset
>>2720819>DSSAmiss me with that shit
>>2720683Fuck I had an effortpost to respond to it but it died.
In short; capitalism has a passive way of degrading traditional culture (enclosing on public space and individual time) and an active one (the culture industry promoting its own commodified culture at the expense of uncommodifyable social culture).
Beyond that you have a lot of despooking to do but I would read into things like the Greenback Party (a multiracial coalition of the working class that was broken by Bourbon Democrats post-reconstruction through the use of racebaiting and segregationism). You will find burgher Marxists who hate traditional culture (usually their own ethnic backgrounds more than others) but the resuscitation of social culture is what will help us liberate ourselves. The South Africans understood this, the Palestinians and Kurds understand this. It's time we learnt it too.
>>2720819The audacity to say that to someone who suggests worker councils. I have more hatred for them than any sort of hate you can muster in your entire lifespan.
>>2720832>The audacityget over yourself infantile
>>2720783Idk if youve tried to get third world wagies to read that stuff, but I have and they all find the manifesto too difficult. Marx for beginners + just play cookie clicker is where I've found most success.
>>2720790I can't unlearn my race or the realities of how that causes me to be perceived. I can't unlearn how I feel about my homeland and my people. I can't unlearn real actual experiences I have had with a spirituality that actually helped me.
Anyone who expects me to just disown my entire ancestry
>which forms all of us, whether we like it or notis actually deranged and doesn't have a healthy relationship with themselves.
>>2720829Yes, I agree with this sentiment.
Democrats could literally get every White Southern vote right now. All it would take is a bit of Dixiecrat and actually doing something for the Working Class instead of people who hate us because we exist and live a certain way.
But that implies I suppose Democrats are really left or want a solution
>nobody doesThis is why I'm a Secessionist. It's totally pointless to expect real change in the current Federal system. It can't exist without the MIC and Capitalism and it knows it.
why the fuck are people seriously engaging with this spooked polyp that obviously have some form of brain damage and is just lost in his stupid fucking life because instead of building on empathy and understanding of the world he got high on spiritualism and alt right looser shit
>>2724641>point me the right way.read everything here
>>2543514thats it, its that simple
Honestly, try reading some good fiction. It helps you build empathy. Theory is important, but what pulled me away from right-wing and liberal ideology was actually feeling for people and their struggles. You need that empathy first. If the deaths of countless children in Gaza leave you cold or make you giggle, then you have a problem.
>>2724655I think it's a myth Right-wingers aren't empathetic. They are, just selective in their empathy. Which maybe isn't necessarily a bad thing. Lots of people are out there taking advantage of empathetic people.
>>2724681https://theauthoritarians.orgThere's two distinct clusters, the bootlickers (Right-Wing Authoritarians) and the boots (Social-Dominants).
>>2724683new libslop just dropped
is this the virginia nazi who used to spam "debate me threads" on /leftypol/? you type exactly like him
>>2724681If you're very selective in your empathy I don't consider that empathy. Doesn't mean you have to accept bad shit but this is on a very broad humanity wide scope
>>2724705I have zero sympathy for the bourgeois.
>>2724710No one said anything about sympathy which is a different thing altogether
>>2720579>Southern NationalismAre you a fed? Southern Nationalism is liberal
>>2725462palpatine was a fascist, thoughbeit
>>2724710Doesn't Marx somewhere in Capital say that most of the bourgeoisie are just the by-products of a sytem they didn't choose and were born into, just like the proletariat?
I seem to recall that line somewhere.
>>2725888Why not just be independent? I'm a communist adjacent independent. You don't have to join a club or look for a new label. Nobody on either side these days has read the Federalists or Anti-Federalists or cares about the Constitution. I don't understand what made you want to belong to the right but at least it's good you want to break free, but you're going to have to sort this shit yourself.
Hung around the right and their whole personality is just racism and heil hitler. Only reason why I was drawn to it was because of the memes they make.
>>2720883>>2720891>>2724641Nationalism was born from liberalism itself, with the bourgeoisie forming national markets to destroy local cultures. Nationalist ideology was born by destroying the very local cultures of the internal peoples within a country, constructing an invented abstraction for the bourgeoisie to create the modern state.
Traditionalism offers nothing but being a useful idiot for finance capital, to then be discarded. All the nostalgia you feel is merely a refusal to see the development of current financial capitalism as the inevitable result of the decline in capitalist profit rates, which cannot be prevented. The past you fantasize about or wish to return to does not exist and never existed. You should stop clinging to illusions of seeing other workers as competition, believing in the discourse that Marx debunked in "Value, Price and Profit"—myths such as the struggle for higher workers' wages causing inflation—when the truth depends on the class struggle of workers in solidarity with one another as a class, and not abandoning another group of workers to be exploited more intensively by the capitalist.
Any separatism you fantasize about in the southern United States is not possible because the entire southern economy is integrated with financialized capitalist imperialism, and there is no national or regional bourgeoisie to carry out this type of separation.
All third-position groups were born from gangs and paramilitary groups that attacked workers with the police who organized against the interests of their bosses (hence the emergence of the Red Guard for the self-defense of these workers and their communities against the bourgeoisie and their henchmen). The very concepts of neoliberalism in current states have embryonic origins in privatizations (such as the privatization of German workers' pensions by private entities for speculation), the flexibilization of labor laws, and the purchase of bank dividends, which were carried out by third-position parties as a prototype of neoliberalism.
Everyone should serve only the supremacy of the proletariat to socialize the economy in solidarity with the workers of the world; otherwise, you are merely a lackey of financial capitalism, deluding yourself with fantasies only to be discarded, as is the fate of reactionaries. The only culture that should exist will be that of a socialist economy within an economy of economic sovereignty. Your feelings are irrelevant.
>>2725881Empathy is irrelevant. You must follow the class interest to serve the political domination of the proletariat in solidarity with the workers of the world, to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, abolish private property, abolish market competition—that is, abolish the anarchy of production—abolish exploitative social classes such as capitalists, speculators, and landowners, and make it impossible for the petty bourgeoisie to exist so that the economy can be collectively planned without following the logic of profit.
>>2729311>>Any separatism you fantasize about in the southern United States is not possible because the entire southern economy is integrated with financialized capitalist imperialism, and there is no national or regional bourgeoisie to carry out this type of separation.In my anarcho (and before that, lolbertarian) days, I imagined that as the empire collapsed the South would be abandoned by Yankeedom and becoming a land of hardy Jeffersonian farmer-survivalist types. In hindsight, this seems unlikely. More realistic is that someone after Trump would pull a Constantine and pull an Eastern Roman Empire in Atlanta. Southeastern Roman Empire.
I did eventually grow up an put away childish things. Dixie's never going to fight ZOG. Dixie IS ZOG. Rothschilds funded the Confederacy, and you can't fling a dead cat down here without hitting a Mason's Hall.
I think there might actually be some merit to the idea of anti-Fed Southern seperatism that isn't directly tied to the Old Confederacy.
>>2720883I mean, you don't gotta disown shit. Just recognize that if you work, you should rightfully own the fruits of that work - and not a penny more.
Remember that you have more in common with a factory worker in India than you do with the rich asshole that lives in a plantation home thirty miles away.
you're weak and we don't want you. stay on the right where you belong, coward
>>2747361>Anti-White or Westernwestern civilization = class society = the state
conservatives use the term "western civilization" to whitewash the exploitation and opppresion of those in the lower levels on class society by the tiny minority on top
being an anarchist is being against the state in all its forms, if you become one and actually do anarchist things you will eventually start being called anti-west or anti-white, if this doesn't happen its because you just kept living in a way that doesnt oppose the state and therfor you were not really an anarchist and just a liberal with radical aesthetics (most anarchists in our times are like this)
so its seems your "leaving the right" path currently is just moving towards becoming a nafoid of some sort so you are not leaving the right at all
i suggest you keep reading the stuff on the sticky
>>2747369I don't think of Western Civilization in that way, though. I see it as more of a historic and cultural shared experience and outlook. Maybe more of a canon of sorts? Maybe that's just me being White. I don't possess any fondness for really for imperialism or animosity towards oppressed people, globally. It just sorta routinely feels like no one cares about me and mine, at all, even though we have been trampled by the same system.
>>2747381>I don't think of Western Civilization in that way, thoughregardless of all the "good" things it has created, at its base there has always been the oppresion and exploitation of the many by the few by the means of the state, thats the material base of it
thats why I'm telling you being an anarchist is antithetical to any feelings of needing to protect this
what you call "western civilization" is currently just producing genocide and ecocide, its past its expiration date, it needs to be overcome
>It just sorta routinely feels like no one cares about me and mineyou have a roof, internet, most likely food and water, meanwhile palestinians are getting genocided by the "western civilization" you care about so fondly, if you think no one cares about you imagine how they must feel
stop being so short sighted
>>2747385>using an actual Nativist Gangster as an own to someone like me with my political historyIs this an example of, "Left Can't Meme?"
>>2747388>regardless of all the "good" things it has created, at its base there has always been the oppression and exploitation of the many by the few by the means of the state, thats the material base of itDo show me one large, centralized civilization of any kind that is on the scale of the West that wasn't exactly the same.
>"Man is born free, but everywhere he is placed in chains.">thats why I'm telling you being an anarchist is antithetical to any feelings of needing to protect thisI don't really care to try because I'm not personally going to stick my neck out for a romantic idea not shared by people with the same heritage as me which only serves to keep us distracted by D&C culture wars.
But that being said I don't see how being some sort of rootless vagabond makes me less exploitable by Capitalism, vis-a-vis my own identity.
>laying palestinian genocide at my feetI've been Anti-Zionist since I was old enough to have a political opinion and leave the Jewvangelical Plantation, so I don't get putting this at my feet. I don't oppose their struggle like at all but I'm not gonna pretend Third Worldists wanna do anything but fucking kill me and take my shit.
>>2747389The quote applies. If a "nativist gangster" says 1+1=2 I won't disagree. Be less emotional and more scientific. your individual desires and moral conundrums about theoretically "wanting" to do something don't matter. Class society produces undisciplined class struggle. Undisciplined class struggle produces failure after failure. These failures create revolutionary theory which results in organized class struggle. Organized class struggle also results in failure but continues to refine theory and practice until success results. These are collective, historical, material forces. Your moral conundrums literally couldn't be less relevant. Rightoids come here expecting a program of conversion and forgiveness tailored to their individual brainworms.
It's impossible to take any "alt-right" person seriously. Especially since the whole ideology was created part and parcel by Jeffry Epstein.
Anyone who was Q is a liability considering how easily they fall for propaganda
>>2747392I'm sorry, who are any of you to me that I need your absolution?
Frankly I've been pleasantly surprised by the information and dialogue I've received.
Unlike most Rightoids I actually fucking read. I have a decent political science background already - or am I asking too much to speak to someone who is also reasonably literate and experienced? Thankfully, it doesn't seem like aside from the odd troll I was asking that much.
>>2747391>Do show me one large, centralized civilization of any kind that is on the scale of the West that wasn't exactly the same.there isn't, thats why marxists and anarchists don't give a damn about this clash of civilizations drivel, its you guys that pretend western civilization is the wholesome chungus one and that everything else is le bad
>I don't really care to try Try what? I don't understand what you are saying
>Third WorldistsWho are these guys? Show me one "third worldist" political party.
>>2747395None of you I think actually now the history of 4chan if you actually believe the Alt-Right or /pol/ was created by Epstein. I was literally there watching Moot sperg at Stormfront edgelords on /news/. /pol/ was going to happen and odds are he met Epstein to get him to finance Canvas.
Also the Alt-Right was about as broad as the Alt-Left, if I may call it that. So to suggest that I was into Qanon is just a bit of a rough assumption on your part.
>>2720579Have you considered leaving /leftypol/ and fucking off back to reddit? This could be a solution for all your problems.
>>2747398I care about my own culture and heritage. Is that some kind of a problem if it motivates me to do the right thing? I have never believed or acted like Western Civilization was a spotless lamb, but since I just came from a place full of them I'm not gonna LARP as something I'm not either and try to transplant myself into an identity about as alien to me as Uranus.
>>2747405>I care about my own culture and heritage.You can care about whatever you want, but the world changes no matter how much you try to hold to the past.
>Is that some kind of a problem if it motivates me to do the right thing?Whats the right thing?
>LARP as something I'm not either and try to transplant myself into an identity about as alien to me as Uranus.And who is asking you to do this? No one cares about your identity, there are bigger issues (capitalism).
>>2747409but you actually would fit pretty well in r/NAFO
>>2747361>Just leave me and mine alone and let us figure out what we want for ourselvesthe fact you still dont understand you cant just say "fuck you I got mine" and live in autarky means your rightoid brainworms might have done permanent damage. You cry about a lack of community and empathy while being an egocentric narcissistic asshole.
>>2747405>I care about my own culture and heritagecommunists are infinitely better at preserving whats valuable in these things (cool cultural clothes, holidays, music, good food, language) than the retarded conservatives who fetishize a nonexistent past while selling off everything and importing the globalized mercantilist culture
>>2747414>the world changesProgress is not always synonymous with improvement.
>Whats the right thing?IDK, as a SouthNat I'm kind of tired of watching Southerners
>of both races of the traditional make-up of the Southall be treated like shit and divided. It has been really unsettling in my life in my general political journey to watch us, "grow out," of the past conflicts and then see them all come back. Meanwhile Capitalists continue to plunder us, poison our natural resources and treat us all like slaves all while cheapening and commercializing our identity and culture.
>>2747495It's more like I've been burned in my life enough relying on other people to not be foolish enough to keep doing so or signing on for something that just exploits me in the end and doesn't actually give a fuck about me.
>You cry about a lack of community and empathyBecause there isn't one? What am I supposed to do about that? You say I'm the narcissistic egocentric asshole, you been outside lately? I've seen plenty of Leftist frustrations with organizing, don't act like I'm the first person to discover this problem. I'm just dealing with it. I'm one person. Maybe I'll get proven wrong one day about the general state of things but I don't see any unity to be found much of anywhere. Late Stage Capitalism has done an absolute motherfucker on our collaborative capabilities - I can't deprogram everyone.
>>2747501Frankly I'm starting to feel this way about Communists.
>fetishize a nonexistent pastCommunist countries also often rewrite their own history to fit with a Marxist interpretation, so I'm really not sure how people choose to relate to and interpret their heritage in odd ways is uniquely a conservative thing.
>selling off everything and importing the globalized mercantilist cultureAs someone with Jeffersonian, Agrarian and Anti-Federalist sentiments I really have seen and experienced this a lot and noticed it from a young age.
>>2747401What is the alt-left? As in communists, the actual left, and not democrats?
Also, yeah. The ideas were created for you and you were propagandized to believe them. The only ideology is ruling class ideology and Epstein was a mover and shaker in that class, and created the alt-right movement wholecloth. He probably made sure it would be antisemitic to double down on the cognitive dissonance of the deplorable chud base of the alt-right.
>>2747674>communists, the actual left, and not democrats?Yes. But it sure seems like you guys are always ready to act for Democrats. To be fair, the Alt-Right has had the same problematic relationship with Republicans.
If you really actually think Epstein created the Alt-Right, wholecloth, you are a fool who wasn't there on the inside. But I have no interest in defending these people - it's not the purpose of my thread - but I will say the assertion is patently false.
>>2747626>Progress is not always synonymous with improvement.I never mentioned progress, I just said things change, this is inevitable, and between us I don't really believe there is such a thing as "progress" in the sense most leftists use it, but this doesn't mean holding to stuff from the old world that will inevitably stop existing makes sense, reactionaries think change is something thats being imposed to them from the outside when is actually just a consequences of our existence being inseparable from what we call time
>>2756096something something useful idiots
>>2756129But they're not useful. They're the reason over half of working class White Americans who overwhelmingly value their way of life and their religion want nothing to do with you. At minimum, these people want our total extermination and our wealth and property to be distributed at our expense. At bare minimum they want our total political disenfranchisement and our entire lives to be turned into a daily humiliation ritual.
Why would they ever consider anyone Left-of-Center when these are the people they tolerate and endorse?
>>2756096>>2756313You're still internalizing a lot of bullshit ideas. If you want to actually leave the right you have to let go of them.
>>2756332Let go of what - my grasp on reality? Let go of a lived experience in politics?
The Woke Left is nothing short of trying to create South Africa II or Global Zimbabwe, no matter how destructive it will be - even for them.
Anti-White and inorganic LGBT+ Radicalism must be distanced entirely from the Modern Left. The Left also needs to remember, again, that being a patriot for your actual blood-and-soil and not some abstract bourgeoisie(SP?) identity isn't antithetical to communism.
But the good news is you'll probably successfully exterminate White people in America at this point before the Left does something about this. So hey, I guess Epstein's PsyOps are gonna work after all.
It was also by-the-by a lived experience I had to reflect on that made me give up my own racist and/or intrinsically anti-LGBT+ ideas that made me eventually decide I wasn't gonna stay with the Right anyway. But hey, just keep feeding the D&C because it feels good I guess. There would be no Alt-Right without the SJWs, just remember that.
>>2756484uygha you need to touch grass. Unironically. Stop being hysterical
>>2756484Wrong. Communists don't have to concede anything to cowards who deny the supremacy of the proletariat and have no solidarity with workers of all races and nations. Proletarian internationalism is a duty, according to Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao; it is a basis for scientific socialism and communism to implement the dictatorship of the proletariat, abolish private property, abolish the anarchy of production, and abolish social classes to achieve fraternity among peoples and nations.
Let's take a quote from Stalin because it seems some people think Stalin supported some nationalism for opportunists to justify the bourgeois state as something that shouldn't be overthrown due to sentimental attachment to the social construct of the nation by liberals and reactionaries:
<2. The October Revolution has shaken imperialism not only in the centres of its domination, not only in the "metropolises." It has also struck at the rear of imperialism, its periphery, having undermined the rule of imperialism in the colonial and dependent countries.
<Having overthrown the landlords and the capitalists, the October Revolution broke the chains of national and colonial oppression and freed from it, without exception, all the oppressed peoples of a vast state. The proletariat cannot emancipate itself unless it emancipates the oppressed peoples. It is a characteristic feature of the October Revolution that it accomplished these national-colonial revolutions in the U.S.S.R. not under the flag of national enmity and conflicts among nations, but under the flag of mutual confidence and fraternal rapprochement of the workers and peasants of the various peoples in the U.S.S.R., not in the name of nationalism, but in the name of internationalism.
<It is precisely because the national-colonial revolutions took place in our country under the leadership of the proletariat and under the banner of internationalism that pariah peoples, slave peoples, have for the first time in the history of mankind risen to the position of peoples that are really free and really equal, thereby setting a contagious example to the oppressed nations of the whole world.
<This means that the October Revolution has ushered in new era, the era of colonial revolutions which are being carried out in the oppressed countries of the world in alliance with the proletariat and under the leadership of the proletariat.
<It was formerly the "accepted" idea that the world has been divided from time immemorial into inferior and superior races, into blacks and whites, of whom the former are unfit for civilisation and are doomed to be objects of exploitation, while the latter are the only bearers of civilisation, whose mission it is to exploit the former.
<That legend must now be regarded as shattered and discarded. One of the most important results of the October Revolution is that it dealt that legend a mortal blow, by demonstrating in practice that the liberated non-European peoples, drawn into the channel of Soviet development, are not one whit less capable of promoting a really progressive culture and a really progressive civilisation than are the European peoples.
<It was formerly the "accepted" idea that the only method of liberating the oppressed peoples is the method of bourgeois nationalism, the method of nations drawing apart from one another, the method of disuniting nations, the method of intensifying national enmity among the labouring masses of the various nations.
<That legend must now be regarded as refuted. One of the most important results of the October Revolution is that it dealt that legend a mortal blow, by demonstrating in practice the possibility and expediency of the proletarian, internationalist method of liberating the oppressed peoples, as the only correct method; by demonstrating in practice the possibility and expediency of a fraternal union of the workers and peasants of the most diverse nations based on the principles of voluntariness and internationalism. The existence of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which is the prototype of the future integration of the working people of all countries into a single world economic system, cannot but serve as direct proof of this.
<J. V. Stalin, 1927, The International Character of the October Revolutionhttps://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1927/11/06.htm >>2756313Sorry to say, but everyone is a sodomite now. The LGBT stuff is here to stay, like the 1964 civil rights act, which gives the whole architecture to "woke" as lawfare against this legendary "white working class". Proof of the overton window is in the fact that people think 2010 is a politically moderate time, where "people were just people", so the normalisation won't stop - and I'm simply speaking in an objective fashion, nothing else.
But if its not the case, then what is the alternative? Federally prohibit gay marriage? Ban elective trans surgeries? Vigilante gay bashing? Public executions?
>>2756484>inorganic LGBT+ Radicalismright, so even you possess the softeness to presuppose an "organic" LGBT movement, which is aeons away from what was possible in the 90s. We are all leftists, just on a sliding scale.
>>2758468Marx also supported Irish Nationalism and saw it as inherently tied to revolutionary sentiment, while he viewed British nationalism as imperialistic and so incapable of international solidarity.
>>2758476>>2758477 >>2756313To make the point a bit clear, the freedom of association presupposes the right to exclude, and thus the right of business to racially discriminate against clients (like how banks "redlined" african-american veterans after ww2 to segregate them from the suburbs). The civil rights act mandates inclusion (as we see from things like integration and busing), and so the freedom of association is effectively abolished (the same way the "boy scouts" now allows girls in it). So then, a "return" to this liberty would mean de facto discrimination, which can be justified under the laws of private property, but having its corresponding community outrage. After the restrictions against redlining, we see movements of "white flight", as people self-segregate based on race (especially the upwardly mobile - for example, the wealthy are content to dump migrants into YOUR neighbourhood, but not theirs). So then, the freedom of association returns, but in a new way, but it cannot be maintained without legal protections, such as Jim Crow laws. So to say, hegemony has its place in law. All revolutions are legal re-constitutions, and un-doing what has been done would require a repealment of these acts, and a pro-white cause is seeking legal protection from non-white competition (the reactionary socialist, Jack London, wrote about this in his book "War of the Classes", 1905; Engels wrote about the harmful effects of immigrant labour in 1848 also). The general issue is about regulation and what you are fond of calling the "organic" movements of peoples. Interracial marriage was banned in the 60s, so this is clearly an inorganic regulation, but is the "promotion" of interracial existence (e.g. integration) "organic" or not? In each case we have a class war between an intellectual oligarchy (we can call the deep state) and an unenlightened democracy (i.e. the masses). If the people decide that "race mixing is communism" is an elite required to intervene against this? (for example, mandatory seatbelt laws were once called "communist" in the US). Most leftists will say yes to intervention, despite its evident hypocrisy. How can one be a democrat, yet not support the will of the public?
>>2758518You didn't actually think that video was a good argument right… There's obviously a difference between a country and a house
>>2758523>There's obviously a difference between a country and a houseand theres a difference between poor neighbourhoods and rich neighbourhoods. where do you think immigrants go?
>>2758534Mostly poor neighbourhoods sure, because they're poor, what's your point?
>>2758537>whats your point?the point is very clear; that if immigrants went to rich neighbourhoods, they would not be supported, showing a continuity between racist white flighters in the 70s and the contemporary liberal elite.
>>2758480Wrong. Marx only accepted Irish separatism as an alternative if he couldn't organize English and Irish workers for communist revolution. If the alternative was English chauvinism becoming a weapon for the subjugation of the Irish through landlordism, with the intensified exploitation of this population eventually creating migrations to exploit this workforce and deceive English workers into blaming immigrants instead of fighting for the labor rights of immigrant workers as a whole so that capitalists couldn't intensify the exploitation of workers, then separatism was acceptable so that Ireland could develop more independently and have more egalitarian relations with the English. This would have a better result than continued subjugation, and with this, the English and Irish themselves were expected to unite in a socialist federation to have this more equal relationship and facilitate fraternity among the workers.
It is with this that the national question arises, which is answered with the right of self-determination of nations by Lenin. This has nothing to do with any ignorant bourgeois nationalism of yours. You're clinging to your opportunism. Anti-imperialism is valid, but it has nothing to do with the insinuation you're trying to make.
If you don't believe what I wrote, then I'll give you quotes to prove my point:
<I shall give you here only quite briefly the salient points.
<Ireland is the bulwark of the English landed aristocracy. The exploitation of that country is not only one of the main sources of their material wealth; it is their greatest moral strength. They, in fact, represent the domination over Ireland. Ireland is therefore the cardinal means by which the English aristocracy maintain their domination in England itself.
<If, on the other hand, the English army and police were to be withdrawn from Ireland tomorrow, you would at once have an agrarian revolution in Ireland. But the downfall of the English aristocracy in Ireland implies and has as a necessary consequence its downfall in England. And this would provide the preliminary condition for the proletarian revolution in England. The destruction of the English landed aristocracy in Ireland is an infinitely easier operation than in England herself, because in Ireland the land question has been up to now the exclusive form of the social question because it is a question of existence, of life and death, for the immense majority of the Irish people, and because it is at the same time inseparable from the national question. Quite apart from the fact that the Irish character is more passionate and revolutionary than that of the English.
<As for the English bourgeoisie, it has in the first place a common interest with the English aristocracy in turning Ireland into mere pasture land which provides the English market with meat and wool at the cheapest possible prices. It is likewise interested in reducing the Irish population by eviction and forcible emigration, to such a small number that English capital (capital invested in land leased for farming) can function there with “security”. It has the same interest in clearing the estates of Ireland as it had in the clearing of the agricultural districts of England and Scotland. The £6,000-10,000 absentee-landlord and other Irish revenues which at present flow annually to London have also to be taken into account.
<But the English bourgeoisie has also much more important interests in the present economy of Ireland. Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.
<And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.
<This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organisation. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.
<But the evil does not stop here. It continues across the ocean. The antagonism between Englishmen and Irishmen is the hidden basis of the conflict between the United States and England. It makes any honest and serious co-operation between the working classes of the two countries impossible. It enables the governments of both countries, whenever they think fit, to break the edge off the social conflict by their mutual bullying, and, in case of need, by war between the two countries.
<England, the metropolis of capital, the power which has up to now ruled the world market, is at present the most important country for the workers’ revolution, and moreover the only country in which the material conditions for this revolution have reached a certain degree of maturity. It is consequently the most important object of the International Working Men’s Association to hasten the social revolution in England. The sole means of hastening it is to make Ireland independent. Hence it is the task of the International everywhere to put the conflict between England and Ireland in the foreground, and everywhere to side openly with Ireland. It is the special task of the Central Council in London to make the English workers realise that for them the national emancipation of Ireland is not a question of abstract justice or humanitarian sentiment but the first condition of their own social emancipation.
<These are roughly the main points of the circular letter, which thus at the same time give the raisons d’étre of the resolutions passed by the Central Council on the Irish amnesty.[…]
<We hit another bird with the same stone, we have forced the Irish leaders, journalists, etc., in Dublin to get into contact with us, which the General Council had been unable to achieve previously!
<You have wide field in America for work along the same lines. A coalition of the German workers with the Irish workers (and of course also with the English and American workers who are prepared to accede to it) is the greatest achievement you could bring about now. This must be done in the name of the International. The social significance of the Irish question must be made clear.
<Letters of Karl Marx 1870, Marx to Sigfrid Meyer and August Vogt In New Yorkhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htmAgain, I repeat that Marx and Engels favored uniting all workers of all nationalities, including immigrants, to fight together for the communist revolution and their shared class interests; separatism was not acceptable to them without certain material conditions. Irish separatism was an acceptable alternative due to English chauvinism, which hindered the organization of the English and Irish proletariat. This prejudice stemmed from the intensified subjugation of Irish workers. If the alternative to a joint revolution in Britain is the continuation of this subjugation of the Irish, then Irish independence would be another option for a future socialist federation on more equal terms between the Irish and English.
I'll post the text where you can read "The Question of the General Council's Resolution on the Irish Amnesty" if you're interested in reading it, which explains this point:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/03/28.htm >>2758574>Marx supported Irish separatismyou mean an Irish nationalist movement?
why don't you just think your own thoughts and have a mind of your own and stop trying to be part of something all the time?
>>2758591ThinKKKing is fascist.
>>2758578Irish nationalism itself he did not support, as a radical Irish republican movement to overthrow the English bourgeoisie and aristocracy by seizing control of land and resources, attacking private property to have more equal relations so that in the future a socialist Ireland and socialist England would unite in a socialist federation, yes, as an acceptable alternative if it is not possible to organize a socialist revolution with the Irish and English and the alternative offered is continued subjugation by the aristocracy in a union of unequal relations.
>>2758609if a movement seeks to separate from an empire to gain national self-determination, it is a nationalist movement. im sorry that you are afraid of the "n-word" in question, but thats what it is. marx even wanted the irish to put tariffs against the english.
>>2758632No. You speak generically of supporting Irish nationalism when it's quite possible that nationalists collaborate with the English bourgeoisie and aristocracy. If there's no interest whatsoever in economic sovereignty, then there's no reason to support it as an alternative. Radical Irish republicanism that attacks private property relations is useful for communists; not having this is reactionary. Separatism isn't accepted in Marxism without questioning economic relations, and the goal of communists is the end of nationalities in a socialist union that plans the economy. Any nationalism will receive hostility from communists, both from Marx and Engels, much more so than from Lenin, who still wouldn't tolerate it, but would have more nuance in the relationship of dependence on imperialism to see if a movement is progressive. However, communists are obliged to organize only for the supremacy of the proletariat independent of the bourgeoisie. Being co-opted by nationalism, reactionism, liberalism, or any fantasy of bourgeois class conciliation is not acceptable. Therefore, bourgeois nationalism is not acceptable.
You don't understand the anti-imperialist position on something; it's different from what a revolutionary socialist movement should do.
You can only impose tariffs if you are using state-owned enterprises in a poor, deindustrialized, peripheral country to develop your own national industry; otherwise, you are acting like a fool.
>>2758697>Therefore, bourgeois nationalism is not acceptable.I never said "bourgeois nationalism", did i?
you are quite exhausting.
>>2758741Even any type of nationalism will be suppressed by implementing the dictatorship of the proletariat and socializing the economy by punishing counter-revolutionaries, liberals and reactionaries, proletarian internationalism follows what Marx wrote criticizing Lassalle in the "Critique of the Gotha Programme". Let's see what Marx wrote in 1875:
<5. "The working class strives for its emancipation first of all within the framework of the present-day national states, conscious that the necessary result of its efforts, which are common to the workers of all civilized countries, will be the international brotherhood of peoples."
<Lassalle, in opposition to the Communist Manifesto and to all earlier socialism, conceived the workers' movement from the narrowest national standpoint. He is being followed in this – and that after the work of the International!
<It is altogether self-evident that, to be able to fight at all, the working class must organize itself at home as a class and that its own country is the immediate arena of its struggle – insofar as its class struggle is national, not in substance, but, as the Communist Manifesto says, "in form". But the "framework of the present-day national state", for instance, the German Empire, is itself, in its turn, economically "within the framework" of the world market, politically "within the framework" of the system of states. Every businessman knows that German trade is at the same time foreign trade, and the greatness of Herr Bismarck consists, to be sure, precisely in his pursuing a kind of international policy.
<And to what does the German Workers' party reduce its internationalism? To the consciousness that the result of its efforts will be "the international brotherhood of peoples" – a phrase borrowed from the bourgeois League of Peace and Freedom, which is intended to pass as equivalent to the international brotherhood of working classes in the joint struggle against the ruling classes and their governments. Not a word, therefore, about the international functions of the German working class! And it is thus that it is to challenge its own bourgeoisie – which is already linked up in brotherhood against it with the bourgeois of all other countries – and Herr Bismarck's international policy of conspiracy.
<In fact, the internationalism of the program stands even infinitely below that of the Free Trade party. The latter also asserts that the result of its efforts will be "the international brotherhood of peoples". But it also does something to make trade international and by no means contents itself with the consciousness that all people are carrying on trade at home.
<The international activity of the working classes does not in any way depend on the existence of the International Working Men's Association. This was only the first attempt to create a central organ for the activity; an attempt which was a lasting success on account of the impulse which it gave but which was no longer realizable in its historical form after the fall of the Paris Commune.
<Bismarck's Norddeutsche was absolutely right when it announced, to the satisfaction of its master, that the German Workers' party had sworn off internationalism in the new program.
<Karl Marx, 1875, Critique of the Gotha Programmehttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm >>2758468So what do you do when members of the proletariat hold dear certain views and cultural practices that run against Communism? You expect them to choose between what makes them who they are and survival - helluva decision. You basically want people to sell their souls to gain the world for some hollow bugman existence is what I am hearing.
This, "fraternity of all nations," thing sounds like a Borg Collective Dystopian Nightmare and if how all strict Communist nations played out is any indication I really think I'd pass on that, tyvm.
No matter how Communists try to sell their utopia to me it really just sounds like a sprawling, grey nightmare.
>It was formerly the "accepted" idea that the world has been divided from time immemorial into inferior and superior races, into blacks and whites, of whom the former are unfit for civilization and are doomed to be objects of exploitation, while the latter are the only bearers of civilization, whose mission is to exploit the former.The historic problem the American Working Class has faced is it's hetereogeneous nature. All efforts to override the racial differences have failed; there is too much bad blood. Nobody is willing to put down their guns and, in fact, in recent American history it is non-Whites who are the ones holding onto a racial consciousness. Re-emerging White racial consciousness happened because of this fact of life. The American Worker is genuinely in a rock and a hard place, according to you: he must surrender everything about himself, his nation and his heritage under the speculation he might get a better standard of living or continue down what is clearly a dead-end path of attempted Racial Awakening that Team White clearly doesn't have the gas to carry out.
Also, I really don't see how Stalin's view of the Soviet Union ever really actually worked or survived. It was the haughtiness of Russians in relation to the Chinese that caused the Russian-Sino Split and the refusal of the Chinese to become stepbrother to any civilization when they had fully-developed metropolises before Russians even had two story buildings.
In my understanding of history
>which may be wrongI fail to see where this vision a lot of fans of the USSR have of it is true, some kind of Imperium of Man Worker's Rights Paradise where all of Humanity was truly united.
I'm not trying to say, "You're wrong," I'm simply saying, "I don't see the evidence for your thesis."
>>2758476Yeah that's something back when I was involved in the Alt-Right I kept trying to address to people; there's no putting the genie back in this bottle without extreme levels of cold and ruthless violence I just don't see them willing to carry out in the first place. Even if they were successful, that sort of resentment is impossible to remove. Human beings inherently chafe against all forms of restraint against their self-determination. If someone is determined to be gay, they're gonna be gay. You're damn sure not getting African Americans to give up a free society or return to segregation; it's just not happening. Society has evolved and it's leaving Straight White Men to die but they don't seem willing to do anything but shitpost about it.
>>2758480So even Marxists have a racial hierarchy - which always seems to conveniently default to anyone who's not my people.
I really wanna hear the plan for getting us to accept slave status or death.
>>2761574> I was involved in the Alt-Right>If someone is determined to be gay, they're gonna be gay.makes sense
>>2761576>racial hierarchyif thats what you got from the post you are replying to you are truly braindead
>>2761579Nah, you guys really do that shit. I've seen you all gather around and circle jerk about it on here too.
>>2758591Because maybe I've been alone or an outcast most of my life and I'm in a particularly vulnerable place in life witnessing the collapse of civilization.
I don't have much of fucking anything except scrolling various boards now. I can't even bring myself to play video games; everything feels like a pointless and sispyhean existence now.
I'm not gonna "Dear Diary," this shit nor expect Leftists to feel bad for anything I've experienced, but, you asked.
>>2761578I could tell a million stories about scandals that don't even involve gays.
Mixed-race kids, marital infidelity, financial corruption that would make even the black-hat tribe caricatures blush, leaving comrades out to dry for the dumbest and pettiest reasons imaginable.
My opinion is just one I have arrived at from a decade of activism and an even longer time affiliating.
The only way the Alt-Right gets what it wants is with Right-Wing Death Squads and a committment to doing what the Taliban did for decades to finally get what they want.
But they won't do it. I don't know why, but they won't. I've never been at street action where Right-Wingers threw the first punch even when it was obvious the smoke was about to pop.
They, genuinely, have a level of capability and organization that they could really Boogaloo if they wanted to - but they don't, ever. I don't care which movement on the spectrum we're talking about; Oath-Keepers, Proud Boys to Patriot Front to any number of laughably small actual NatSoc orgs. They have the resources, means and people. But they never do anything.
I don't remember where on here but I was lurking a thread about Leftist Street Action where everyone was complaining about how incompetent they seem to be.
That may be the case but at least they'll swing.
They have that in common with Skinheads I used to know, but they're too busy going to prison for decades to matter.
>>2747391>third worldists are going to take my shitYes thats exactly it. You understand that you and your classes continued existence is parasitic on the rest of humanity. You either accept this and move forward or theres nothing else to discuss.
>>2761654When the moment comes, their choice will be to hand over their property, or be removed with it.
>>2761654>>2761674Yep. This is why my people are always going to be opposed to you until the end.
Come and get it.
>>2761576>always seems to conveniently default to anyone who's not my people.Its almost like your "people" are globalists who have colonized the entire planet for the Jeffrey Epstein class, but you're totally not a degenerate NPC I'm sure
>I really wanna hear the plan for getting us to accept slave status or death.you sound more of a whiny little bitch than any Zion-nazi who seethes at the thought of being in the same class as their goy slaves
>>2761687How are my people globalists? I'm really curious.
If we're going off some kind of collective blood-guilt thing, then basically nobody in the West can ever be a Communist. Because somewhere, somehow, we benefitted from some act of imperialism and colonialism somewhere.
What a very persuasive ideology: one of total submission to people who hate us. No wonder the Left is growing. Ten out of ten.
>>2761654What a persuasive argument for membership. Nah, I don't think I will be joining a humiliation ritual. I could get into the Normie Left if I wanted that. Or, I could just go back to the Alt-Right where anyone who's not sufficiently German isn't White or can't be a real Nazi.
>>2761706We dont need you. You came here for whatever reason and when confronted with your own privilege and status you chose to lash out and post shitty memes to hide behind irony. Like i said, theres nothing to discuss. Theres no reason for you to be a communist. Go away
>>2761717Then enjoy opposition from me I suppose.
I can't think of a single time in my life where I felt, "privileged," or had, "status." In fact we have evidence of Federal policies that leave Whites out to dry while giving millions to immigrants for some reason. Yeah, what a recipe for Working Class solidarity in America! But hey - good news, the same (((people))) that are benefitting from this are going to throw you all under the bus, too, because you are ALSO a threat to Capitalism.
Have a nice day.
>>2761724southerners sure are insecure when they dont have all that free labor yt prosperity. you will not rise again, unless it is to be executed.
>>2761738Any time you wanna try. Space and opportunity.
>>2761747I don't think my comrade meant you personally, more so the southern reactionary as a political force. If they try to extend themselves for the powerful, and elite, the way they did during 2018-2020, it wont end well is all. Hopefully they wake up and that is avoided, yet historically, this is not something to depend on. Not to mention a lot of them have a history of trying to enter cities they view as being lost by "american whiteness", and start stuff with the local populations / leftists. This too, will end very badly for them. That's all ;)
>>2761834Southern Nationalism unlike many other nationalisms evolved over time post-WW2. Blame that on us being stuck inside the, "winning," side of the Great Patriotic War but here we are - here I am.
The latter half of your post I don't know how to deal with, it sounds like a lot of ridiculousness to me. But maybe I'm just out of the loop on internal Leftist politics.
Let me be clear: I know my people are the most untapped well of potential in the entire world. We have been exploited repeatedly and we have had enough - many of us have been awake to this longer, but it's becoming more prominent as a trend in the last 6 years or so.
There is a real ability here for something that is class conscious down here but everyone wants to judge us for our past history instead. They want to read our historic struggle in the worst light possible. They want to look at things only from the racial angle, not reality - Republican Abolitionists exploited Blacks far worse than we ever could have. There's something to be said for a cage you know exists and the one that is invisible until you run into it face-first.
But a long time ago even the most recalcitrat Unreconstructed also became proponents of racial equality within the South. You can't tell me shit; I was there, I saw it. I lived through it. Then I saw in real time once again how outsider bourgeioisie
>I always spell this word wrong, whateversentiments made us all hate each other again.
Helter Skelter isn't some random hype phrase to us; we lived through it. We saw the damage it did to all Southerners, White and Black, and how Carpetbaggers used us for their own gains.
You can acknowledge that or try to talk past, over and around it.
But just remember: no one who ever fought a war against us outside of our own cousins ever did very well.
So you can either take the offer or you can suffer for it later.
Me? I am sick of my own people being exploited by others for their own gain. I am ready for all of us to be together against our real, common enemy: Capitalists.
You can keep making this some petty racialist issue or you can understand that, in that dichotomy, you are asking us to give up the best part of ourselves: the part that will fight to the bitter end for our survival, our independence, and our freedom.
It's the Left's choice. The American "Right" made their's when they let the Reconciliation monument get torn down.
I don't fancy us being further devastated and destroyed than we are. Maybe - just maybe - the Left can do different now.
why is everyone on this site more interested in converting rightoids than libs
>>2762095Exercise in Futility
>>2761565Wrong again. All peoples and nations will lose their prejudices through class struggle, seeing their interests shared with the workers of the world. Illusions of prejudice will fade as antisocial behaviors are corrected to better act together. As the dictatorship of the proletariat forms with the overthrow of the bourgeois state, the militias of workers' self-defense committees (the Red Guard, for example) will punish counter-revolutionaries, liberals, reformists, and reactionaries who deny the supremacy of the proletariat. Mass expropriations will abolish private property, abolish the anarchy of production, and abolish social classes through the collective organization of the economy to meet the needs of the population without the logic of profit and the education of the population. With all this, there will be changes in the culture of this socialist society, forming a socialist culture in all ethnicities and peoples of the workers. This will prevent co-optation by capitalists, aristocrats, and the clergy who served the dominant classes of the past.
You have to understand that in a socialist society, all workers will have guaranteed jobs, education, and healthcare. Furthermore, raising children will be guaranteed by the entire society without shifting the costs to women, giving workers both paternity and maternity rights. Community, leisure, and cultural activities will be guaranteed, allowing them to develop without the interests of profit or submission to capitalists, clergy, aristocrats, or any puppets of the owning classes. With a socialist economy, the population's behavior will improve, providing access to free time, sovereign and healthy food as a collective responsibility, and re-educating reactionaries and antisocial behaviors to work collectively with other workers in solidarity with the workers of the world.
With all that I have written, there is no reason to cling to prejudices or resentments based on illusions that have nothing to do with class struggle. From what you wrote, you haven't read the texts I posted below for you to read instead of clinging to sentimentality or nostalgia. Workers should act together in solidarity to prepare for the revolutionary situation, sabotage the bourgeois state, and prevent, by opposing, interventions of finance capital abroad that intensify the exploitation of workers.
Here is my post again for you to read and begin to learn:
>>2720793 >>2762095Because they are chronically white and situated in mostly white small suburbs, small towns, and regions entirely assimilated into Americanism, the kind of places that breed a deep fear of the very different urban culture of the United States. There are also whites, conservative Blacks, Latinos, and others who view themselves as beacons of an “old world” standing against these hostile cities from small pockets and social formations from within, but they are openly conservative or reactionary. The “communists” in question come from that same world, that same sphere. They are isolated from the actual left, passing their days in Midwestern cul‑de‑sacs, chronically online. They live in places where the white American settler dream was once within reach, and they simply want it back.
These are not the left that was physically assaulted and killed by the state or reactionary forces, nor the left that fought back against reactionary slime and pigs. They wear communist aesthetics while denouncing national liberation struggle theory and ironically, sometimes quietly cherishing American civilization. They decry anyone who would expose the illusion of that civilization, because they were part of it and enjoyed its benefits for a time. They denounce the energies that have a taste for resistance, energies that often arise from places far more economically destitute, from people who hold no favorable opinion of American civilization. What these self‑styled communists yearn for is a shimmering Midwestern industrial economy, a dream no different from the spook MAGA invokes. A good chunk of American Marxist‑Leninists are simply the Amerikkkan version of NazBols.
>>Being White is now a pathology
You people genuinely think “white” is an ethnic group or a race, rather than a social construct forged by the class system of Western capitalism. Read something written outside Europe. Read something by someone who isn’t an old, dead European Marxist or anarchist. It might help you see beyond the limits of your euro-central orthodoxy.
>>2762850
>>Is monoculture not a goal of leftism? or is it only when White people do it?
What?
>>2762819>All peoples and nations will lose their prejudices through class struggle, seeing their interests shared with the workers of the world.This hasn't ever been achieved anymore than any White Power movement in the United States has succeeding in getting closer to a Fourth Reich. Every single Communist country has been almost entirely homogenous in every way - it was Russian imperialism upon Eastern European countries that made them hate Communism far more than anything Communism itself did or whether or not it was being practiced correctly.
>there will be changes in the culture of this socialist society, forming a socialist culture in all ethnicities and peoples of the workers.Yeah that's not gonna happen for people with a healthy relationship with their own identity - nobody wants to be a Kalergite Bugman in the Global Communist Crusade.
>raising children will be guaranteed by the entire society>giving workers paternity and maternity rights>Community, lesire and cultural activities will be guaranteed, allowing them to develop without the interests of profit or submission to capitalists, clergy, aristocrats or any puppets of the owning classes.What culture? You're gonna end up destroying it and replacing it with something artificial in it's place by the bayonet. Somehow this was also not OK when the British Empire or any other Western European Empire did it… but now it's really swag for Commies to?
>the population's behavior will improve, providing access to free time,To do what? You are removing anything that gives life a higher meaning and imposing a vulgar materialistic outlook.
>muh identity muh culture muh fee fees
just ban this jewish nigger already im tired his whining
>>2762851This may come to shock you but in the real world where politics aren't abstracts with a few exceptions
>like the kind of people who are usually in these corners of the internetmost people pick the team that gives them the best slice of the pie.
In the real world that's how people make political determinations, not usually based on some lofty ideals or deep personal convictions. Those people are very rare who in a choice between one banana or two pick the one banana out of some moral compunction that taking two of them is wrong.
So, yeah; people who have no reason to hate the United States of America or wish to destroy their entire cultural history in the favor of becoming Commie Borg Collective probably won't be for that when they have no negative attitudes towards it or history.
>>2762859This might shock you but a good many Founding Fathers would not be in favor of Capitalism.
>>2764341the implicit rule of not being a dumb frogposter
>>2764326>This hasn't ever been achieved anymore than any White Power movement in the United States has succeeding in getting closer to a Fourth Reich. Every single Communist country has been almost entirely homogenous in every way - it was Russian imperialism upon Eastern European countries that made them hate Communism far more than anything Communism itself did or whether or not it was being practiced correctly.Big joke, all communist revolutions were not homogeneous with communists of various races, contrary to the fantasy you have in your head. You don't understand what imperialist capitalism is; read "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism" about the dominance of finance capital as inevitable in the competition and accumulation of capital. All bourgeois states will be overthrown, the supremacy of the proletariat will be established, and any counter-revolutionary, reformist, liberal, and reactionary will be re-educated and punished for denying the new ruling class. Your opinion, apologists of the bourgeoisie and tradition, means nothing to me and will be crushed. I don't value sentimentality and nostalgia from lackeys of finance capital who will eventually be discarded by the bourgeoisie.
>Yeah that's not gonna happen for people with a healthy relationship with their own identity - nobody wants to be a Kalergite Bugman in the Global Communist Crusade.Wrong, workers will form socialist culture without chauvinism or reactionary influence, without private property and social classes to feed false consciousness. This will be done in a socialist economy without profit.
>What culture? You're gonna end up destroying it and replacing it with something artificial in it's place by the bayonet. Somehow this was also not OK when the British Empire or any other Western European Empire did it… but now it's really swag for Commies to?The socialist culture that will exist in socialist society and will form within it without the exploitation of man by man, acting and organizing collectively according to the economic plan to meet the needs of the workers. The British Empire initially served the interests of its ruling class, the aristocracy, and eventually the bourgeoisie, to accumulate capital. If you had read the text "The State and Revolution," you would understand that the state is an instrument for one class to oppress another, arising from the irreconcilability of social classes in a class society. I have no reason to value the whining of reactionaries fantasizing about a past that has already been destroyed and that does not serve the supremacy of the proletariat.
>To do what? You are removing anything that gives life a higher meaning and imposing a vulgar materialistic outlook.Wrong. Art, leisure, and human creativity will develop better without the logic of profit, through the use of popular workers' councils offering theater, entertainment, and community in solidarity with the workers of the world, and without chauvinism.
>>2764326If you're too lazy to read, then I'll leave you with a quote from Lenin about what imperialist capitalism is:
<But very brief definitions, although convenient, for they sum up the main points, are nevertheless inadequate, since we have to deduce from them some especially important features of the phenomenon that has to be defined. And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its full development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:
<(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.
<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, 1916, VII. Imperialism as a Special Stage of capitalism.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch07.htmProletarian internationalism is a duty, no matter what you complain about, and all bourgeois states will be overthrown for the supremacy of the proletariat, no matter your opinion or your outrage.
>>2765362I am actually starting to see some of your points about socialist culture et al. A lot of what passes for culture is actually foisted on us by Pedophilic Capitalists as PsyOps. It's inorganic and forced brain-washing, it's not actual real folk culture. Sort've what this person above
>>2720829if that makes sense. I am starting to see the light on some of these issues through reading and thought. But a lot of what I see is that especially for American Whites there's no pleasing Lefties. They just have this intrinsic Hate-Boner for us that is impossible to get around.
It reminds me of the very, very early days of the Alt-Right where everyone who wasn't significantly German enough in attitude couldn't be on their team. The Alt-Right eventually beat these people in the head and told them to shut the fuck up, because nursing a historionic revenge-fantasy was getting in the way of actually putting ideology into practice and accomplishing a goal.
The Left really doesn't seem to have that figured out and it is honestly one Hell of a fucking hill to get over for me.
Frankly I don't think no matter what I do I'm ever going to be decent enough for anyone in any of these circles and I'm not exactly trying to jump into direct association with anything, anyway.
Honestly I don't think I all-the-way agree with everything in Leftism anymore than I did with everything in the Right-wing. I think many people in the Left, just certain real-life issues fly right the fuck over their heads.
These people probably think Zhukov should've been never allowed to be in authority within the Red Army because one time at some point in his life he fought for the White Russians and the Tsars before that. Utter brain-dead wing-cuck thinking that's never going to create anything.
>>2770061if you want to know about the abolition of the volk, i would suggest alain de benoist's "beyond human rights" (2011) which explores the legal creation of the abstract "individual". The universal reign of human rights comes in 1789 with the revolutionary "Declaration…" which is concurrent with nationalism, an absolutist construct. Volkdom and nationalism are thus also at odds, as I explain here:
>>2761062"National Anarchism" as a reactionary movement also sees that the concept of individuality is harmful to the order of communities, and thus, a community's collective rights should have primacy (in modern jurisprudence, there is no such thing as "collective" rights of peoples, but only of individuals). So in each case, we see how law is the instrument of political action. Marx also sees that the individual is a construction of social, not natural relations; namely, the division of labour. Marx further attributes individuality to the modern wage worker, since their economic relations are based upon voluntary contraction. So then, individualism progresses as capitalism progresses, which by 1848, Marx had claimed, had already destroyed traditional custom and the institution of the family (with original reference to Thomas Carlyle's "cash nexus"). Thus, it is sufficient to claim that money as a universal abstraction, is the source of destabilisation - Aristotle calls barter "natural" and money "unnatural". The Bible calls money the "mark of the beast", and the love of money "the root of all evil".
>>2770136Thanks for the book reccommendation. What's that flag you've got there?
I am something of a voluntaryist probably still. I'm no against collectives, but they have to be built I believe on something tangible and not forced from the top-down.
But either way, I like your takes. Thanks!
>>2770191its the national anarchist flag:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National-anarchismalain de benoist is also known as one of the pioneers of the "european new right" starting in the 70s, and he is the basic teacher of alexander dugin, as dugin writes in the introduction to the "fourth political theory" (2009). benoist is also known for defending a traditional and occidental form of direct democracy against "representative" government or monarchy. what is "liberal" to him is therefore confused between the democratic, since liberalism presupposes representation, and thus oligarchic guardianship over the popular democracy. theories of "true" democracy are always contentious, of course (we must also remember that universal suffrage is a 20th century concept and never existed before this, since not all citizens were enfranchised as part of the "demos").
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