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554 posts and 120 image replies omitted.

>>2814990
The generalists are more correct than the particularists.

>>2815042
you can make that argument, but not by quoting lenin

>>2815047
Lenin agrees that imperialism is transhistorical though, but just leaves room for historical particularity. He doesn't even say the generalists are wrong, just that they are banal. I would further criticise Lenin's notion that capitalist imperialism (e.g. monopoly finance capitalism) is simply a 20th century phemomenon, as he suggests, when Marx sees the partnership of the Bank of England and the British Empire as early as the 17th century. If we then wrote about the first principles of imperialism, we would have to begin in the ancient world, and such is my description of the process of colonisation, surplus extraction and uneven development in Greece, Rome and China. Again, Lenin does not dispute this, he simply sidelines it.

>>2815053
>he simply sidelines it
For good reason, since by imperialism he means a stage of development within capitalism, centering the socio-economic formation in which what he is describing exists. That way when writing about the first principles of imperialism we can study its material reproduction as it concretely exists within our particular reality, not to merely understand it, but with the intent to change it.

>>2815069
So you contend that our current history begins in 1900 and that nothing more can be made relevant before this? It is inappropriate to call historical empires, imperialist?

>>2815072
If only everyone could weave such tapestries from words unspoken. Lets stick with the text. When Lenin says banal what do you think he means by that?

>>2815075
>When Lenin says banal what do you think he means by that?
<Banal means so lacking in originality, creativity, or freshness that it becomes boring, commonplace, or predictable. It describes something that is cliché, uninspired, or devoid of interesting qualities
You are claiming that the "first principles of imperialism" exclude notice to previous histotrical empires, which I find perplexing and ignorant. If Lenin affirms the reality of precapitalist imperialism, then "imperialism" as it manifests under capitalism is particular, and so subordinate to the general concept. So then, one can speak of "capitalist imperialism" without issue, but when "imperialism" presumes exclusively capitalist conditions, there is error.

>>2815083
So when we are talking about current affairs or modern politics, which exist under capitalism, and someone says "imperialism" do you think they, and Lenin, mean "capitalist imperialism"?or maybe is this pedantic bait? or maybe in actuality you are so fucking stupid and illiterate you cant figure out what simple words means from context like a normal human?

>>2815096
I refer to imperialism generally and you are the one who becomes pedantic, attempting to convert common language into jargon, and then get annoyed when people use words properly. Your issue begins in yourself, anon.

>>2815096
>>2815101
To delver further, Lenin is inspired by John Hobson's "Imperialism: A Study" (1902), in which he first makes historical distinction regarding "modern imperialism":
<This study of modern Imperialism is designed to give more precision to a term which is on everybody’s lips and which is used to denote the most powerful movement in the current politics of the Western world.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/hobson/1902/imperialism/preface.htm
Hobson identifies historical incongruity between ancient and modern imperialism (arising in the 1870s) as the difference between a genuinely international project, and an inter-national project, where various empires compete with each other, rather than collaborating:
<The novelty of the recent Imperialism regarded as a policy consists chiefly in its adoption by several nations. The notion of a number of competing empires is essentially modern. The root idea of empire in the ancient and mediæval world was that of a federation of States, under a hegemony, covering in general terms the entire known or recognised world, such as was held by Rome under the so-called pax Romana. When Roman citizens, with full civic rights, were found all over the explored world, in Africa and Asia, as well as in Gaul and Britain, Imperialism contained a genuine element of internationalism. […] Nationalism is a plain highway to internationalism, and if it manifests divergence we may well suspect a perversion of its nature and its purpose. Such a perversion is Imperialism, in which nations trespassing beyond the limits of facile assimilation transform the wholesome stimulative rivalry of varied national types into the cut-throat struggle of competing empires.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/hobson/1902/imperialism/intro.htm
So, its unclear whether or not Hobson would regard the EU or US as imperialist by their mantras of "Pax Europa" or "Pax Americana", since the usurpation of nations under a single power follows the Roman model more than the pre-war model (e.g. After WW2, Europe decided to abolish their empires and join together in a union, which is really headed by Germany and France). The hegemonies and counter-hegemonies of China, Europe and the US (previously, the USSR had a stake) shows competition, but it is not as virulent as it once was.

So we might say that in the Hobsonian conception (which inspired Lenin), ancient imperialism was based in an international monopoly, while modern imperialism is based in inter-national competition. If the progressive idea then is that small capitals are outcompeted by large capitals, and large nations are outcompeted by large nations, then smaller empires should be outcompeted by larger empires, until the whole world is under one administration, and so a return to the fondness of the ancient empires, circulating the movement of history back to the same point (like how communism is a return to the primitive past, or eschatology is about returning to Eden):
<Ownership of shares, the relations between owners of private property "interlock in a haphazard way". But underlying this interlocking, its very base, are the changing social relations of production. When a big enterprise assumes gigantic proportions, and, on the basis of an exact computation of mass data, organises according to plan the supply of primary raw materials to the extent of two-thirds, or three-fourths, of all that is necessary for tens of millions of people; when the raw materials are transported in a systematic and organised manner to the most suitable places of production, sometimes situated hundreds or thousands of miles from each other; when a single centre directs all the consecutive stages of processing the material right up to the manufacture of numerous varieties of finished articles; when these products are distributed according to a single plan among tens and hundreds of millions of consumers (the marketing of oil in America and Germany by the American oil trust)—then it becomes evident that we have socialisation of production, and not mere "interlocking", that private economic and private property relations constitute a shell which no longer fits its contents, a shell which must inevitably decay if its removal is artificially delayed, a shell which may remain in a state of decay for a fairly long period (if, at the worst, the cure of the opportunist abscess is protracted), but which will inevitably be removed.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch10.htm
Of course, Lenin is simply mirroring Marx's own warning, back in 1848, that the potential of production must give way to its immanent capacity, and this means a communist revolution. The fundamental issue is the perennial problem of demand, which is never satisfied.

>>2815036
I mostly agree with this, so I guess I reject marxist theory of history, (even if I consider useful), but I don't see the connection between this and rejecting the communist program, this is where I split with you. History and progress aren't real, fine, but I would still support a proletarian revolution (specially an international one) regardless, simply because the other option is what, voting? I don't believe its inevitable and all that, but if it happened, I see no reason to oppose it (unless you are of course part of the capitalist class). Even if past communist revolutions only became capitalist there is no way to be sure this will happen again, since there is no subjacent logic of history, so it seems worth the try, doesn't matter to me how many times it fails. Amor fati and all that.

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>>2815310
I find your reply extremely refreshing.
I hope you will be patient with mine as I share my thoughts.

Now, the materialist conception of history is still a very valuable device, in that it gives cause to effects; such that so much of "culture" is really a disguised and mystified class warfare (e.g. base and superstructure). I agree with this, and internalise the Marxian critique in this respect, yet we also see a similar observation in liberal circles. We may regard Smith's theory of value as this sort of critique, which places "value" in the lower ranks of mechanical arts by their precedent productivity. This is transhistorical in one respect, by the Body Politic of Plato in Republic, or the causation of thinking by the satiation of appetite, by Aristotle. Montchretien uses the example of Body Politic in his Treatise (1615) to give equality to the mechanical arts and the liberal arts, by their respective division of labour. Smith (1776) makes the same point, by still attributing value in use to the unproductive members of society, yet its determination is not constituted by any exact proportions (since they fail to establish an equivalent value in exchange). In referencing this back to the original point, we can see Hoppe's praise of Marx's notion of exploitation (1993):
<I will present a series of theses that constitute the hard-core of the Marxist theory of history. I claim that all of them are essentially correct. […] The primary form of exploitation is economic: The ruling class expropriates part of the productive output of the exploited […] The ruling class is unified by its common interest in upholding its exploitative position and maximizing its exploitatively appropriated surplus product.
https://mises.org/mises-wire/marxist-and-austrian-class-analysis
Hoppe then explains the formal structure of exploitation:
<history must be told in terms of freedom and exploitation, parasitism and economic impoverishment, private property and its destruction […] While productive enterprises come into or go out of existence because of voluntary support or its absence, a ruling class never comes to power because there is a demand for it […] its most basic institutional expression in the creation of a system of public law superimposed on private law. […] It formalizes the right of the state’s representatives to engage in nonproductive and noncontractual property acquisitions and the ultimate subordination of private to public law. Class justice, i.e., a dualism of one set of laws for the rulers and another for the ruled, comes to bear in this dualism of public and private law and in the domination and infiltration of public law over and into private law.
https://mises.org/mises-wire/marxist-and-austrian-class-analysis
Here, Hoppe properly sees the state as a class dictatorship, which thereby establishes two sets of law; one for the rulers, and another for the ruled, and which are mutually exclusive, by an involuntary contraction. Thus, crime imposes itself as law, but a law which is really disorder, by the injustice of property relations. This has theoretical continuity with Rousseau, who sees that all unjust laws are not really laws, but lawlessness (the same as conservative writer, Samuel Francis). This itself has ancient proverbial precedence in Tacitus (15 CE):
<laws were most numerous when the commonwealth was most corrupt.
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/annals.html
And in the Christian scriptures:
<Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/3-6.htm
Here, the law is inwardly divided, between its nominal and real meaning, such the same as Christ conflicts with the Pharisees, and thus the rightful violation of the law is the following of the true law. All of this is to express the meaning of "class justice", as Hoppe puts it; that where the state acts against the General Will, it exploits, and rules illegitimately. Illegitimacy is in the original violation of private property rights, but this can be mediated, such as Thomas Paine puts it (1776):
<Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil
https://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/1776-paine-common-sense-pamphlet
Here, the state is justified by means of its necessity, and so ends justify the means (moderating the absolutism of Hoppe). What then, is necessary in its evil? We see both Rousseau and Kant claim that not all men deserve democracies, by stature of their common reason. We see this expounded by Locke previously, with ode to Aristotle, that some people are slaves by nature, and so cannot rule themselves. Thus, an irrational people are obliged to be ruled by a dictatorship, while a rational people requires no such state of dependence. Law is synonymous with order in the rational state of society thus, which as Lao Tzu writes, is governed as though no one governs it at all, and so evil is only necessary as far as there is evil which has precedence. Hoppe's claim then, that the state itself is an inherent violation of property rights is true, yet the necessity of intervention is in relation to the enemies of the demos (e.g. citizens; free property-owners). Hoppe speaks in other places of both white collar and blue collar criminals being an enemy to property by theft, and so the state (as in just war theory) establishes organised violence upon the basis of self-defense. Thus, as I once heard it said, the libertarian confuses "taxation" with "taxation without representation". Where there is taxation with representation, there is thus class justice, by contract of the state, as a body of mutual protection and interest. So then, we finally come to the point… Law is a class concept, which is particular to class interest. Where the law causes disorder by injustice, we can say that there is not universal disorder, but only a particular gain. Thus, as it goes, the value of labour may be divided between its revenues; wages, rents and profit. Where wages suffer, either rents or profits benefit (e.g. class warfare).

What concerns justice only concerns right to property. The claim of labour then concerns one's rights to the product of his labour, for he regards it as his rightful property, while what is unrightfully taken (rather than given) we may call "theft". Hoppe's complaint then, of parasites, is simply a complaint of the theft of property, which is really the primary legal claim of most politics. Thus, a king wages war against another, for he regards their land as his own, by rights of the claimant, and so sees the claims of another as the unrightful theft of his territory. War then, is either theft or reclamation. Indeed, slaves are regarded as the original prisoners of war, who forfeit their rights by surrender, and so who transfer their rights to another, in exchange for their life. The question of law, justice and states then regards the right to property - and so, the foundation of a proletarian state must be made upon the principles of private property, and so a claim to ownership must be given. If the communist slogan was "profit is theft", then we get a claim to the rights of surplus value, but this is the terrible state of much communist propaganda, that it fails to discern the rights of workers as legitimate, instead relying on unjustified force. Marx speaks of the expropriation of expropriators, which is a thoroughly liberal sentiment, of returning stolen property back to those who have a right to it, which we may term "compensation" or "reparation" unto the afflicted. Is communism then a type of compensation? This is not discussed. We then counter the libertarian's nonsense that "taxation is theft" as an original property claim, by the classical liberal sentiment that taxation is justified by means of political representation, which establishes class rule, and ideally, the class rule of the free citizen.

The communist question then is in its justification. What is the positive legal claim of the communist? We liberals are fellow revolutionaries, if you are a liberal in spirit, but if not, then you can only be disguising tyranny under the mask of liberty, which is the main concern. As Proudhon has it, all revolution is simply a return to order, by the rectification of law to right. There are communist lawyers, but no communist jurisprudence; there may be laws, but no order - "planned chaos", as Mises has it. So, what is the communist justification?

>>2815101
>I refer to imperialism generally
Yes, we are talking about capitalist imperialism and you, as usual, interject into the conversation to compulsively spout your misinformed liberal opinion, to pontificate on banalities as if you are making a contribution, and then accuse others of off topic posting!

uyghas quoting Lao Tzu in Political-Econony thread

>>2815489
>we are talking about capitalist imperialism
All you're talking about is me. Please stop gossiping, already.
>>2815490
Lao Tzu is a master of Wisdom; he should be consulted on all topics.

>>2815493
>he should be consulted on all topics.
What does he say about annoying retards who misunderstand Marx

>>2815500
Nothing which I can discern, but he does say that one ought to find peace, so I suggest the same for you. Take control of your anger. As a matter of curiosity, I wonder what misunderstanding you refer to.

>>2814756
>The fact that we don't own slaves
M3Ws on here argue that the average first worlder owns just as many slaves as george washington, it's just that they're collectively owned by firsties, and scattered across the world, rather than picking cotton outside your window. While I disagree with them, I see why they say that. In America we also have a prison system that is basically slavery in all but name.

>>2815511
You're missing the point, much like him, that we no longer live in a slave holding society

I agree that we may as well be indentured cattle, economic production does not rely on a caste of slaves and slave holders as believe it or not we live under capitalism, and not the mode of production 2000 years ago

>>2815493
>All you're talking about is me. Please stop gossiping, already.
no we are trying to discuss the political economy of capitalist imperialism but you keep insisting on a different topic

>>2815517
>economic production does not rely on a caste of slaves and slave holders as believe it or not we live under capitalism
I wonder what you could interpret from these words from Marx?
<Direct slavery is just as much the pivot of bourgeois industry as machinery, credits, etc. Without slavery you have no cotton; without cotton you have no modern industry. It is slavery that gave the colonies their value; it is the colonies that created world trade, and it is world trade that is the precondition of large-scale industry. Thus slavery is an economic category of the greatest importance. […] Modern nations have been able only to disguise slavery in their own countries, but they have imposed it without disguise upon the New World.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/poverty-philosophy/ch02.htm
Capitalism is inclusive of slavery.
>>2815521
>we are trying to discuss the political economy of capitalist imperialism
Where? You are just talking about me - please get a new hobby, thanks.

>>2815517
>not the mode of production 2000 years ago
2,000 years ago, people were forced to work for masters who extracted a surplus product from them; today, its the same. There is no difference except in the scale of slavery and devastation.

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>>2815483
Full disclosure, not the anon, and my questions are not intended as hostile…

>where the law causes disorder by injustice, we can say that there is not universal disorder, but only a particular gain

Does this assume that disorder is always measurable from some specific class standpoint? Or could there be a sense of systemic disorder that isn’t reducible to anyone’s particular gain?

Furthermore…

When you distinguish between “taxation” and “taxation without representation” as the libertarian’s confusion, you seem to imply that representation can legitimize class rule. Does that legitimacy rest entirely on procedural consent, or does it also require that the represented class actually benefits in some material way? If the represented class still suffers relative to another class, is the justice purely formal?

You note that

>some people are slaves by nature, and so cannot rule themselves (via Locke and Aristotle).


Is this claim treated as a descriptive empirical observation about actual historical populations, or as a normative limit on who qualifies for self-rule? And how would one distinguish, in practice, between those who are “slaves by nature” and those who are merely subjugated by force or deprivation?

You propose that
>a proletarian state must be made upon the principles of private property.

Does this mean that any socialist or communist project that rejects private property in the means of production is necessarily unjust from the start? Or could there be a different theory of rightful ownership (e.g., usufruct, collective stewardship) that isn’t reducible to liberal private property but still has a coherent legal claim?

You ask for communism’s positive legal claim, noting that there are communist lawyers but no communist jurisprudence. If a communist were to answer, “The worker has a right to the full product of their labor, and this right precedes and limits any state or market allocation,” would that count as a positive legal claim? If not, what criteria is it missing?

When you say
>law is a class concept, which is particular to class interest

Does that apply to your own argument’s preferred legal order (e.g., the class rule of the free citizen)? If so, how do you distinguish between a class interest that is openly declared as such and one that is universalized as “order”?

You invoke the necessity of the state as a “necessary evil” justified by the presence of evil that has precedence. Does this mean that the justification for state violence is always retroactive and defensive? Or can it also be prospective (e.g., deterring future enemies of the demos)? And if prospective, how does that avoid the very logic of preemptive force that Hoppe criticizes in the state?

Finally, you end by calling liberals “fellow revolutionaries” if they are “liberal in spirit.” What is the minimal threshold of “spirit” that distinguishes a fellow revolutionary from a disguised tyrant? Is it a matter of declared intent, or must it be observable in the legal structures they defend?

These are genuine curiosities, not challenges. I’d be interested to hear how you might refine the ideas in response to any of them.

>>2815517
>You're missing the point, much like him, that we no longer live in a slave holding society
slavery is illegal but still takes place. it is not the mode of production, but it is still a feature of production.

>>2815526
Absolutely none of that undermines the point made and in fact strengthens my case that capitalism is historically different than the mode of production 2000 years ago.

You know full well this is the case which is why you are now attempting to debate semantics

>>2815528
This is so wildly inaccurate and untrue I'm not going to bother correcting you. Fuck off and read The critique of Hegelian right if you wish to go down that line of thinking

>>2815528
>>2815538
Or for that matter On The Jewish Question

>>2815538
>read The critique of Hegelian right
not the anon but I assume you mean "Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right." As far as I am aware there is no work by Marx with the title you used

File: 1779052449948.jpg (12.98 KB, 591x591, barber handshake.jpg)

>>2815532
>Does this assume that disorder is always measurable from some specific class standpoint? Or could there be a sense of systemic disorder that isn’t reducible to anyone’s particular gain?
There could be natural incompetence, I suppose, but in that case, we could even say that there is injustice due to the lack of meritocracy - the less qualified gains at the greater qualified's loss. On disorder in general, I think it would be wise to see it as a symptom of class warfare. Here though there is still a traditional idea of class harmony, like in Plato's Republic, where inequality persists, yet all sectors are balanced. I would certainly see that wealth inequality by a division of labour can be orderly, so long as freedom is equal. Class is not merely inequality, it is privilege.
>When you distinguish between “taxation” and “taxation without representation” as the libertarian’s confusion, you seem to imply that representation can legitimize class rule.
Yes, of the taxpayers.
>Does that legitimacy rest entirely on procedural consent, or does it also require that the represented class actually benefits in some material way?
Well, we read in the Declaration of Independence, following from Locke, an idea of the "consent of the governed", which can be colloquialised as social contract; that if a people is fed up with its government, it has the right to revolt, and so the lack of revolt means concession to the state. Voting also serves as this sort of mechanism, that if you don't like a leader, you can vote them out. Of course, the bind of "democracy" is that you are not permitted to vote away your right to vote, creating a Platonic Guardianship of oligarchs which force you to vote for the perpetuation of the system. Here, the rule applies as under an irrational people, that power is entirely conditional upon the agreement that you make the "right" choice - this is implicit in the cult of voting of course, that the mantra of "vote!" is partisan, and so it makes you realise that there cannot be such a thing as free elections, since "democracy" is really an oligarchy. In my praises of the Chinese Communist Party, I have seen the benefits of monarchy for the self-interest of a people, and with reference to Plato's Statesman, we can confirm a benevolent dictatorship as the greatest form of government, by necessity (since if we gave the most power to the best people, it would necessarily create the best results). As I say however, the Taoist emporer does not rule to be feared, or even to be loved, but to allow the people to rule themselves (its getting interesting now, isn't it?) So then, voting cannot be the measure of social contract, and cannot even be the measure of democracy - material wellbeing then occurs as the standard, but what is wellbeing? I would see that the promise of wealth cannot satisfy wellbeing, only the promise of security in liberty (e.g. trust) can. This is why I stress representation, since it is my solemn belief that people would sacrifice 80% of their wealth to exist in a virtuous society, while in a society of vice, people are not willing to give up anything. So then, it is not that wealth is the opposite of virtue, but only that it is entirely secondary to it. So, wellbeing is not in giving a man a fish, but in teaching a man how to fish (another brilliant Chinese proverb). In terms of consent then, a great leader is not merely obeyed, but celebrated. The measure of political order then may be measured in how safe our leaders feel in public - the less security, the less they need to be protected. This is for society in general, which is why if I was leader, I would immediately dismantle the surveillance state, which is manifest lack of trust.
>If the represented class still suffers relative to another class, is the justice purely formal?
Well, in a pure democracy, there is only one class; the citizen. I am a supporter of the dictatorship of the proletariat - but this must be qualified in its meaning.
>Is this claim treated as a descriptive empirical observation about actual historical populations, or as a normative limit on who qualifies for self-rule?
Its both, I suppose, but it has a practical reality. For example, a prisoner is enslaved by the state by right, for the sake that crime is seen to be caused by irrationality. Where a prisoner is taken unjustly, we then say that the state is irrational, and thus laws must be changed. This is the genuine public spirit, and why I characterise jurisprudence as the concetely revolutionary act (since if all crime is against property, a change in law changes our relations to property, and so is class warfare).
>And how would one distinguish, in practice, between those who are “slaves by nature” and those who are merely subjugated by force or deprivation?
I would say that the capacity for reason is its measure. A child, a dog and a mentally disabled person are not suited to rule themselves, and so are the property of another (while still reserving protections by third parties, such that there are rights for animals and children, even if the right is not in themselves - we can see this regulation as early as the Levitical code which penalised slave owners if they abused their slaves too badly). The other category of slaves we may simply regard as prisoners, who are acquired by war (since all war is based in the claim of property, by offense or defense).
>Does this mean that any socialist or communist project that rejects private property in the means of production is necessarily unjust from the start?
I would say so, since in this case, property is not abolished, it is simply conserved by exclusive license in the state. If we were to say however that all workers "own" the means of production, we are distributing rights, not abolishing them. A public company still has many private shareholders, for example. Essentially, all property is private property; its just that the privacy of right can be limited in access. There is also unclaimed land which we may regard as "wilderness", and which I think has a right to be wild. For example, there are "domesticated" and "wild" animals. As Plato tells us, man is a domesticated animal (a featherless biped, to be specific), while a wild animal is incapable of submitting to slavery, and so has the right to be free by their persistent rebellion (Albert Camus in "The Rebel" gives a lovely account of metaphysical rebellion). So, there cannot be freedom without wilderness, and so a proletarian state would not mean a universally claimed territory, but only a necessarily-claimed territory. For the same reason, I see no issue in having a private sector for unnecessary goods.
>Or could there be a different theory of rightful ownership (e.g., usufruct, collective stewardship) that isn’t reducible to liberal private property but still has a coherent legal claim?
Well, usufruct and stewardship still retains the rights to the leaseholders of the property - I am not against diverse forms of property ownership and usage, but it still ought to be transparent. For example, the state ought to possess property which is inaccessible to the general public. I am not an absolutist, either way, since if the state conserves property for the sake of necessary evil, it is thereby justified under those terms. For example, I don't think you should be able to buy a nuclear warhead on the black market - here is the standard libertarian argument; that the government is made up of bad people, so how is it safer with them? Its a good question, but too much to go into right now.
>If a communist were to answer, “The worker has a right to the full product of their labor, and this right precedes and limits any state or market allocation,” would that count as a positive legal claim?
Yes, since it is a claim to the product of labour. The negative legal claim would then be "profit is theft" or "rent is theft" which can be assessed on its grounds. I have shown previously how Rothbard justifies slavery reparations upon the claims of compensation for unpaid labour, and so he sees the diminished status of black Americans as a consequence of unfair debts.
>how do you distinguish between a class interest that is openly declared as such and one that is universalized as “order”?
Adam Smith approaches this by seeing how "the wealth of nations" is a class concept (the same as muh GDP) and so it is ineffecient to account for wealth in a universal manner, but should rather be measured in particular, according to the rate of real wages:
<The interest of the second order, that of those who live by wages, is as strictly connected with the interest of the society as that of the first […] But the rate of profit does not, like rent and wages, rise with the prosperity and fall with the declension of the society. On the contrary, it is naturally low in rich and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin. The interest of this third order, therefore, has not the same connection with the general interest of the society as that of the other two. 
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch11c-3.htm
On ground-rents, Smith also justified their taxation, and so really, it is low profits, taxed rents and high wages which serve as the "general interest" of society, according to the proportion of those who belong to it. So then, if we measure national wealth by proportion of revenue distribution, rather than the economy in general, we quantify the share of the social product by class. So, nationalism is most often a mystification of capitalist interests, and so "national order" is to be criticised. In general however, the increase of crime either means an increase in the irrationality of the public, or the increase of irrationality of the state - so, murders and rapes per capita could be a good metric, I suppose. Thus, in my authoritarian discourse, if we have to choose between voting or safety, choosing safety makes us more free.
>Does this mean that the justification for state violence is always retroactive and defensive? Or can it also be prospective (e.g., deterring future enemies of the demos)? And if prospective, how does that avoid the very logic of preemptive force that Hoppe criticizes in the state?
Hoppe is a great critic of prospective violence, which justifies the military-industrial complex, and I would agree completely. No war has ever made the world safer, and can only make it more dangerous. In terms of defense, I think distributing weapons to the public would be useful. Even in the case of occupation, guerrila warfare can be effective, while also being cheaper. Unfortunately, its still pragmatic to have things like nuclear weapons to deter aggression, but this is still in the realm of defense, while an empire like the USA is constantly offensive.
>What is the minimal threshold of “spirit” that distinguishes a fellow revolutionary from a disguised tyrant? Is it a matter of declared intent, or must it be observable in the legal structures they defend?
All revolution, as I have stressed, is not chaos, but order. It is the imposition of legal right by metaphysical rebellion; the dignity of wilderness; noble savagery. The tyrant rules by riots, and the revolutionary is not a rioter. The illiberal person then is a rioter with no passion besides destruction, rather than construction. Marx is correct on this point, that productivity is far too revolutionary for capitalism. Capitalists prefer destruction.
>These are genuine curiosities, not challenges
I do not take your words as challenging, and thank you for your respectful inquiry. 🙂👍

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>>2815538
>>2815540
>This is so wildly inaccurate and untrue
All historical class societies are the extraction of a surplus by forced labour. This is not controversial. Again, I would suggest you calm down; you're not yourself when you're hungry.

>>2815587
Not all class societies are slave holding societies

It's pathetic that you're attempting to perform the same gymnastics here as Smith anon by turning historically contingent truths into transhistorical constants

I would recommend everyone in the thread read First Premises of Materialist Method if they have not done so to avoid these same pitfalls of quoting Lao Tzu and Plato in a thread for political economy

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>>2815600
>Not all class societies are slave holding societies
Of course they are; how else do you get people to work?
If at the end of a long chain of incentives there is a gun poking in your back, forcing you do work, you are living in a slave society. What would happen if people stopped working tomorrow and decided to hunt or farm or loot instead? The military would shoot them, no? We are all living in human farms and aren't allowed to run away.

>>2815601
It is ridiculous that you are continuing to argue this as you've completely misunderstood what has been said and are simply setting up false equivalences by ignoring historical context

Continue quoting Plato and Smith to each other

>>2815601
>>2815615
Third anon here

All class societies are indeed rooted in exploitation and the appropriation of surplus labor. However, they are not differentiated by the existence of exploitation itself, but by the specific mode in which that surplus labor is extracted from the direct producers. This single distinction illuminates the difference between slavery and wage labor, the nature of different class societies, and how to recognize a transition from one to another.

The movement from one form of class society to another is not about the simple presence or absence of certain labor types like slavery or wage work. It is about a fundamental shift in a society's dominant relationship through which a ruling class extracts unpaid surplus labor from direct producers.

The fact that wage labor existed in ancient Rome and slavery existed in the modern capitalist United States doesn't disprove Marx's theory. The classification of a society depends on the dominant form of exploitation and mode of production that structures its fundamental class relations.

A social formation can contain multiple modes of production, but one is dominant and gives the society its essential character. A transition occurs when this dominant mode changes.

This process of one mode becoming dominant is illuminated with concepts of formal and real subsumption:

Formal Subsumption: Capital initially takes over pre-existing labor processes without fundamentally changing them. This explains how a capitalist could profit from slave-based production (e.g., American plantations) before the system was fully transformed.

Real Subsumption: As the capitalist mode becomes dominant, it revolutionizes the labor process itself through technology and new forms of organization, making it specifically capitalist labor.

>>2815587
>>2815600
All class societies are based on exploitation. They take the surplus labor of workers. But these societies are not different just because exploitation exists. They are different because of how they take surplus labor. That single difference helps us see the gap between slavery and wage work. It also helps us see the nature of different class societies. It even helps us see when one society changes into another. Moving from one class society to another is not about having slavery or wage work. It is about a big shift in the main relationship in a society. Through that main relationship, the ruling class takes unpaid surplus labor from workers. Wage work existed in ancient Rome. Slavery existed in the modern capitalist United States. These facts do not disprove Marx’s idea. A society’s type depends on the main form of exploitation. That main form shapes the basic class ties in that society. A social group can have many ways of producing goods. But one way is the main way. That main way gives the society its key character. A change happens when the main way changes. We can understand this process using two ideas. First idea: Formal taking over. Capital first takes over old work processes. It does not change them in a big way. This explains how a boss could profit from slave work. For example, this happened on American plantations. That happened before the system was fully changed. Second idea: Real taking over. When the capitalist way becomes main, it changes the work process itself. It uses new tools and new ways of organizing work. This makes the work fully capitalist.

>>2815615
You keep saying its ridiculous, but can't actually argue against it.
>>2815656
>>2815741
>It is about a fundamental shift in a society's dominant relationship through which a ruling class extracts unpaid surplus labor from direct producers.
And what is the fundamental difference? There is no change in the mode of production, only the mode of exchange. Instead of being paid in-kind, you are paid in commodities. That's it. This is Marx's own point which is lost to people arguing against it. The only difference between a slave and a wage-slave is the wage:
<All the slave’s labour appears as unpaid labour. In wage labour, on the contrary, even surplus-labour, or unpaid labour, appears as paid. There the property-relation conceals the labour of the slave for himself; here the money-relation conceals the unrequited labour of the wage labourer.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch19.htm
If you pay your slave in cash, does that make them free? Is freedom in the ability to buy things from the shop, or even to sell ourselves? No.

>>2815615
>misunderstood
trust me that is not the problem

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>>2813498
G.D.H. Cole was a proponent of "Guild Socialism", while R. H. Tawney was a proponent of Christian Socialism. Here are two respective works of theirs we can read:
  • G.D.H. Cole - Guild Socialism (1922)
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm
  • R. H. Tawney - The Acquisitive Society (1920)
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm

On Cole's Guild Socialism:
<Guild Socialism, the name given to a school of socialist thought which originated in England early in the 20th century, and has since spread to other parts of the world, particularly to the English-speaking countries—the United States, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa—and to Japan. As its name implies, it had, in the minds of those who originated it, a definite relation to the forms of industrial organization which existed throughout the mediaeval world, and it was an attempt to apply to the solution of modern industrial problems certain of the principles which were in active operation in the economic organization of mediaeval society. This does not mean that Guild Socialism is an attempt to restore the mediaeval guild system, or that it has any necessary relation to the restoration of a system of hand craft in place of the modern system of machine production. In harking back to the mediaeval organization of industry, Guild Socialists for the most part have in mind not the forms of production which prevailed in the Middle Ages, but the mediaeval principle of industrial self-government. The origin of the Guild Socialist movement is to be found in The Restoration of the Gild System (1906)
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm
The guild of course, is the forerunner of the union, and it mainly concerned artisans, but also merchants, and the means of acceptance were typically ritualised and contracted by bonds of loyalty. The famed Freemasons were themselves originally a guild of builders, such as their internal documents reveal. The purpose of a guild was to unionise, or regulate competition, which in medievel England (such as in the Great Peasant Revolt of 1381), saw controversy between domestic traders and foreigners (the English peasants terrorised the Flemish peasants after crossing into London). The competition of labour leads to the proletarian character of Fascism later on, such as the Aigues-Mortes massacre (1893) in France, with the neologism of "National Socialism" by Maurice Barrès (1898)… Continuing with Cole, he goes through the history up to the present time of the National Guilds League, and outlines their demands:
<The National Guilds League, which is the only organization directly representing the Guild Socialist movement in Great Britain, defines its objects in the following terms: "The abolition of the Wage System, and the establishment by the workers of Self-Government in Industry through a democratic system of National Guilds, working in conjunction with other democratic functional organizations in the community." An examination of this definition will serve to indicate clearly the main ideas upon which Guild Socialism is based. […] the oft-used phrase "workers by hand and brain" seems to have been coined by the Guild Socialists, and was used by them from the beginning of their propaganda. They have stressed, moreover, not only the need for common action by all the workers "by hand and brain," but also the need for the recognition, in any form of democratic industrial organization, of vital functional differences between one grade of workers and another. The democracy which they have advocated has been not the government of industry by indiscriminate mass voting, but a system in which power and responsibility would be definitely related to the particular function which each individual or group of individuals is called upon to fulfil in the service of the community.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm
He advances by seeing how the disparity between politics and the workplace shows the contradiction in the sense of self-direction, promoting democracy at work, like Richard Wolff today:
<Guildsmen are fond of pointing out that the present forms of democratic organization, which may be called, for short, "parliamentary democracy based on universal suffrage," are not in reality democracy at all, and do not in fact provide for the direction of the affairs of the community by the positive wills of its members. They urge that it is useless to look for effective democracy in the political sphere as long as the principle on which industry, which so largely dominates men's lives in modern communities, is organized is the principle of autocracy, or, at best, of fundamental class divisions. […] Guildsmen say that "economic power precedes political power." […] The central object, then, of the Guild Socialists is to establish democracy in the sphere of industry, and thereby to secure that it shall be applied throughout the whole sphere of social organization. In advocating such a change they recognize that their hope of success rests on relating their ideal definitely to actual movements existing within the world of capitalism, but capable of being so transformed as to supplant capitalism and replace it in the organization of industries and services.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm
Upon the stated interests of abolishing the wage system, Cole says that what is wished to be abolished is simply the insecurity of payment, and thus a continuous payment, or "industrial maintenance" ought to be considered. This is in policy today under unemployment benefits:
<This point is very important, and is fundamental to the whole guild theory. In the statement of objects of the National Guilds League quoted above, it will be noticed that the Guild Socialists set out first of all to secure the "Abolition of the Wage System." A part of what they mean by this is that the conditions under which the workers at present receive wages involve permanent insecurity and are therefore degrading, and such as to place the worker at the mercy of the "governing class in industry." Guildsmen, therefore, have always made the principle of "continuous pay," or, as it is sometimes called, "industrial maintenance," a fundamental part of their propaganda. They have insisted that all those who are willing to do service for the community have a right to continuous pay in return for that willingness to serve, and that the maintenance of the "reserve of labour" is a necessary and legitimate charge upon the various industries, and forms a real part of their costs of production. This principle of "industrial maintenance" has undoubtedly been one of the most favourably received and influential aspects of the Guild Socialist policy.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm
Cole offers the Guildsmen's alternative from what is typically favoured from state socialists:
<They are in agreement with other schools of socialist thought in holding that it is necessary to transfer the means of production and distribution and exchange from private hands to some form of communal ownership. They are, however, strongly hostile to the older schools of collectivism or "State" Socialism, which contemplate the nationalization of industry in a sense which would involve its direct administration, after transference to public ownership, by the governmental organization of the political State. Guildsmen have always laid great stress in their propaganda on the evils of bureaucracy and political control in industry; and their system of direct workers' control is put forward as an alternative to State administration.
And so this bears much relation to the co-operative movement, of which Cole was also a part of. The Guildsmen also promoted a National Guild system, so were also not merely exclusive to local production:
<They are united in recognizing that the working-class coöperative movement is destined to play an important part as the representative of the organized domestic consumers in the society to which they look forward. But there is much difference of opinion amongst them concerning the character and role of the State. The majority in the National Guilds League has taken a view concerning the State which is closely similar to that of the Marxians. They regard the State as a form of capitalistic organization—"an Executive Committee for administering the affairs of the whole capitalist class"—and they look forward to its supersession "by forms of organization created by and directly expressing the will of the workers themselves. . .
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm
Their thought is still too undeveloped, however:
<The Guild Socialist theory concerning the precise forms of socialist organization which would replace the present machinery of industry and the capitalist State is still in the making, or rather, to some extent, in the unmaking.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm
The Guildsmen differ from the plain rationale of trade unionists however, by seeing altruism as necessary to the project of restructuring production:
<The guildsmen stress, in the whole of their propaganda, the need for an appeal to a new motive in industry if men are to be persuaded to put out their best efforts, and to do their best work in the service of the community. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/cole/1922/guild-socialism.htm

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>>2813498
>>2815854
Next, we can move into Tawney, who in his Acquisitive Society, criticises the constitution of private property:
<The industrial problem, in fact, is a problem of right
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
Tawney speaks upon the radical changes following the late 17th century in England:
<The difference between the England of Shakespeare, still visited by the ghosts of the Middle Ages, and the England which merged in 1700 from the fierce polemics of the last two generations, was a difference of social and political theory even more than of constitutional and political arrangements. Not only the facts, but the minds which appraised them, were profoundly modified. The essence of the change was the disappearance of the idea that social institutions and economic activities were related to common ends, which gave them their significance and which served as their criterion. In the eighteenth century both the State and the Church had abdicated that part of the sphere which had consisted in the maintenance of a common body of social ethics; what was left of it was repression of a class, not the discipline of a nation.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
Here, he clearly applies a romantic view; that before the rise of capitalist relations, there was something "more" underlying the bonds of society, rather than pure profit. This is only presuming "society" and "Nation" to be reliable abstractions, of course. The Nationalists of the French Revolution had to convert the French peasantry to a common language, so the Nation is not an object, it is a subject, which has its particular class character. Indeed, the idea of national sovereignty or independence was strange, before the Protestant Reformation, since all kings were supposed to be regulated by the Pope. Indeed, the Pope was a mediator in the disputes over Magna Carta (1215), and Boniface declared the political supremacy of the Church over all states in "Unam Sanctam" (1302). The Church was above state, so this talk of "nation" by Tawney is a phantom, obscuring class interests, unless specified. Tawney continues:
<Philanthropy abounded; but religion, once the greatest social force, had become a thing as private and individual as the estate of the squire or the working clothes of the laborer. 
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
The privacy of religion is attested to, such as George Fox (1624-91) who in the revolutionary period, invented Quakerism, which is the ultimate individualist and revealed religion, which has had its part in various liberal movements ever since (such as being a leading force in abolitionism; surpassing the puritans before them, such as in Milton - the later poet, Blake, was a Quaker). Fox was a Puritan originally, himself, so we can see this as an "internal" development of the original revolutionary spirit, unleashed by Luther (1517). Here, Tawney again holds to the false abstraction of "institution" (e.g. the Catholic "corporation", or integral body). What the protestants liberate is the individual, and the individual is seen to constitute the basis of social relations. So, this bourgeois movement is not anti-social, it is pro-social, in determining the very substance of society. If the quaker thus contends to an absolutely individualist revelation, yet still outpours compassion, what is the error in this? Tawney continues in speaking of sacred bonds of obligation and so on, but we already perceive the cynicism of prayer and ritual, in both Homer and Plato, as an appeasement and reciprocal exchange. In Pseudo-Aristotle (320 BCE), we see the raising of children rationalised as a long-term investment by parents for their future security, and so the family is in turn already "abolished" in accounting for its essence, as an economic mechanism. The bonds of child to parent are also fiercely competitive, where like today, the ancients would kill their unborn children, and children would kill their parents, like Oedipus. By the words of Euthyphro, Zeus betrayed his own father, yet is glorified for it. We see the voluntarism of these bonds in Homer's Iliad, where Agamemnon recounts the betrayal of his mother against his father, leading to Agamemnon's betrayal, and the father's curse put upon him, which disallows him from bearing sons; and so Agamemnon pleads with Achilles to let him adopt him as his own son (Achilles was obviously a grown man at this point). All marriages and families are inherently dysfunctional, and nothing new can be done, under the sun. We see this very plainly in the Book of Genesis, that the first murder was not between strangers, but brothers. It is also the philosophical perspective that the greatest love is not between family, but friends, which are voluntary relationships. I like to say of my own family, that they may love me, but they do not like me, and this matters, since in the former, there is the burden of obligation, but in the latter, there is the joy of fellowship. The conservative attitude is to take obligatory relationships for granted, but we see in the Enlightenment, such as in Kant, that a traditional honour of "duty" was justified, only insofar as one had moral imperative to its order, and not to the call of duty itself (e.g. as prescribed). Socrates in his theory of social contract (t. Crito) thus remains a conservative, since he regards reciprocity in the State (as compared to child and parent) necessary, and thus, one is commanded by honour to loyalty in the State (it should be noted that Plato as a Statist, also thought that a "noble lie" was necessary to bind the public into a common morality - and so, he exposes the tenuous and artificial contraction of society within its very justification). The larger complaint of Tawney is in this context, that when "society" is mediated by formally selfish actors, you lose the social essence, but I would claim contrarywise, that you simply reveal the social essence. Thatcher, following Rothbard, exclaimed that there is "no such thing as society", which is part of this general idea. The vulgar plea of a return to "society" is reactionary hogwash (whether anticapitalist or not), which ignores Marx's own critical insights (indeed, Marx identified Christian Socialism as distorting of real criticism). The other side of the social abstraction is the racial essentialism of the fascist milieu, in the illusions that race, before class, structures society, and that the social essence thereof is racial in character (such as we see in The Old Testament, which affirms the idea of a racial or collective soul, and so the whole is presumed to exist before its parts are constructed). Both are conservative, in that they regard "society" as primary to the internal relations which make up its parts. Aristotle says that the oikos precedes the polis, yet sees how individuals are proceeded from political existence. I would criticise Aristotle in this estimation, in that there have always been outcastes, and thus, those whose individuality is defined by their ejection from the polis; Nietzsche calls these men "philosophers", but the prehistoric regarded them as shamans. So, is individuality invented or discovered? That is the question. Tawney describes liberal society:
<The result of such ideas in the world of practice was a society which was ruled by law, not by the caprice of Governments, but which recognized no moral limitation on the pursuit by individuals of their economic self-interest.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
Here of course, all law is flattened as property law, with man himself considered his own self-owned property. This has its ancient constitution, as in Cicero (44 BCE):
<For the chief purpose in the establishment of constitutional state and municipal governments was that individual property rights might be secured. 
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cicero/de_Officiis/2B*.html
And so, all rights are property rights, as it has been discoursed upon, since ancient times. Tawney's befuddlement upon historical particularity takes away the universal character of this human reason;
<The first famous exponent of this philosophy was Locke, in whom the dominant conception is the indefeasibility of private rights, not the pre-ordained harmony between private rights and public welfare.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
But as we see, Cicero held the same position, and even before Locke was Hobbes, who similarly regarded society as a voluntary union of individuals. Tawney develops his criticism of property relations by the hypocrisy of the marketplace, which is sound:
<They thought it a monstrous injustice that the citizen should pay one-tenth of his income in taxation to an idle Government, but quite reasonable that he should pay one-fifth of it in rent to an idle landlord.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
We see something similar in the US versus the UK, where private healthcare is not just more exclusive, it is also more expensive, and so the cost of "freedom" is really the cost of unfreedom. Liberty then, must be given against all idleness and irresponsibility, public or private. Tawney continues his rightful criticism of the liberals in regard to the inequality prescribed in their property, and it mirrors what Marx writes, that capitalism is not the affirmation of private property, but its erasure. Tawney elaborates on the formal structure of the politics:
<What it implies is, that the foundation of society is found, not in functions, but in rights; that rights are not deducible from the discharge of functions […] the struggle between humanitarian sentiment and the theory of property […] against the possibility that their private rights may be subordinated to the public interest
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
Here, his concern is once more, the abandonment of common good, or utility. Indeed, as the division of labour increases, production becomes more useless, and exclusive to the purchase of luxuries. What he should stress however, is that this public interest is itself only justified upon the rights of property, elsewise it is a nebulous slogan; the "public good" in that case only has the same meaning as "national wealth", which is measured according to class. Tawney elaborates:
<property is not an absolute right, but that it may properly be accompanied by special obligations, a doctrine which, if carried to its logical conclusion, would destroy its sanctity by making ownership no longer absolute but conditional.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
But again, what are these obligations? Concretely, they are a redistribution of wealth. And so, right is measured in this case by the relative inequality of wealth; if wealth is too unequal, it forfeits its right of possession, and so we introduce quantity. Indeed, Tawney discusses this in the context of taxation, which is a quantity - so how much ought people be taxed? That is a question of right, not merely an appeal to traditional social bonds or a mystical racial loyalty. Tawney continues:
<The enjoyment of property and the direction of industry are considered, in short, to require no social justification, because they are regarded as rights which stand by their own virtue, not functions to be judged by the success with which they contribute to a social purpose.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
This is not quite true; the capitalist has always regarded himself as a martyr who by his abstinance, expands the capacity of production, and so increases the wealth of society. The capitalist sees himself as an altruist, and this is what justifies his property. Tawney then gives a dichotomy between a Functional Society and the Acquisitive Society:
<A society which aimed at making the acquisition of wealth contingent upon the discharge of social obligations […] might be called a Functional Society […] to make happiness the object of society is to resolve society itself into the ambitions of numberless individuals […] Such societies may be called Acquisitive Societies, because their whole tendency and interest and preoccupation is to promote the acquisition of wealth.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
We may then regard these as collectivist and individualist, respectively. Tawney continues his description of the Functional Society:
<It is foolish to maintain property rights for which no service is performed, for payment without service is waste; […] [the Functional Society] would aim at abolishing those forms of property in which ownership is divorced from obligations.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
Tawney also gives this socialist insight:
<it would seek to encourage those forms of economic organization under which the worker, whether owner or not, is free to carry on his work without sharing its control or its profits with the mere rentier. Thus, if in certain spheres it involved an extension of public ownership, it would in others foster an extension of private property. For it is not private ownership, but private ownership divorced from work, which is corrupting to the principle of industry […] Provided that the State retains its eminent domain, and controls alienation, as it does under the Homestead laws of the Dominions, with sufficient stringency to prevent the creation of a class of functionless property-owners, there is no inconsistency between encouraging simultaneously a multiplication of peasant farmers and small masters who own their own farms or shops, and the abolition of private ownership in those industries, unfortunately to-day the most conspicuous, in which the private owner is an absentee shareholder.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
As I have previously expressed it, the issue in so much of political thought is the problem of land, even to free market theorists, such as Von Thünen and Gossen, of whom, Gossen suggests the government leaseholding of land, and its conditional borrowing by enterprise. Such is the same in what Tawney suggests; that it is the unproductive, absentee and rentier character of the property owner which leads to corruption, such as his earlier notion upon the state versus the landlord. Here then, Tawney offers positive solution. Tawney thus resolves that the issue with private property can only be its functionlessness. He thus affirms property likewise:
<if by "Property" is meant the personal possessions which the word suggests to nine-tenths of the population, the object of socialists is not to undermine property but to protect and increase it.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33741/33741-h/33741-h.htm
Thus, Tawney undertakes the Marxian insight, that capitalism erases property, while the socialist must affirm property, by expropriating the expropriators.

So then, we can see that Tawney's idea of Socialism is the supplication of the Acquisitive Society for the Functional Society, by the condition that property is held for the sake of social utility rather than uselessly given.

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>>2815838
I agree with the point you are making in the abstract, and I see your Marx quote and acknowledge it, I just think that quote is being taken in isolation, because he also articulatd quite a bit about what made modes of production different from one another, and the other anon even quoted the German Ideology as a starting point for understanding this. Even if everything is now "sneaky slavery" instead of "straightforward slavery", there is a lot of devil in the details. I think in another thread you also went on a similar lines, talking about how not much has changed, citing the ancient prototypical aeolipile of Heron of Alexandria as proof of this, but I linked an article from Cockshott going into the crucial details about why steam power wasn't just around the corner despite a prototype existing in ancient times. This is a separate discussion but it reminds me of that.


https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/07/28/why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/

everything below is a auote, I won't bother with the greentext arrows every newline

There are the obvious objections that the Mediterranean basin has no coal deposits to fuel steam engines. But in due course they had conquered Northern Gaul and Britannia where they were able to extract coal. Could they have set up and industrial economy in these areas?

I think not. There are inherent technical limitations to the usefulness of Hero’s device, basically its low torque and inefficiency. Steam turbines are now the preferred prime mover – in use in fossil and nuclear power stations across the world, but their superiority has depended on the ability to produce high pressure steam and high rotational velocity. The actual technology that started the industrial revolution – the Watt steam engine had the virtues that it could develop very high torques at low velocity using very low steam pressures.

In order to get a functioning fossil fuel economy you had to have a prime mover and a way of providing fuel for it. The main fuel available was coal which was obtained from mines prone to flooding. The Watt engine was originally developed for pumping out mines, an application which required a lot of force but tolerated a relatively slow engine. The torque T supplied by a Hero style turbine is given by the rule

T = p × 2a × r

whee p is the steam pressure, a the area of each exhaust nozzle and r the radius of the turbine.

The torque provided by a Watt beam engine was given by a similar rule

T = p × a × l

where p is now the pressure difference between the boiler and the condenser, a the area of the cylinder and l is the beam length.

The early Watt engines were huge, with beam lengths of over 3 meters compared to the few centimeters for the length of hero turbines. This is a factor of 100 difference. In terms of diameter of bore a practical Hero turbine would not have exceeded 1 cm against half a meter for a Watt engine. This is a factor of about 2500 greater area for the Watt machine. Let us assume both operate at the same steam pressure, since the technology of boiler construction was initially the limiting factor. That means that the torque of an early Watt engine was about a quarter of a million times greater than an aeolipile.

Could you build an aeolipile that generated comparable torque?

Well yes if you had arms a couple of meters long on the turbine and nozzles a half a meter in diameter, then the torque would be comparable. But the nozzles of the aeolipile are open to the air, so a nozzle half a meter across would use up an entirely impractical quantity of steam.I think not. There are inherent technical limitations to the usefulness of Hero’s device, basically its low torque and inefficiency. Steam turbines are now the preferred prime mover – in use in fossil and nuclear power stations across the world, but their superiority has depended on the ability to produce high pressure steam and high rotational velocity. The actual technology that started the industrial revolution – the Watt steam engine had the virtues that it could develop very high torques at low velocity using very low steam pressures.

In order to get a functioning fossil fuel economy you had to have a prime mover and a way of providing fuel for it. The main fuel available was coal which was obtained from mines prone to flooding. The Watt engine was originally developed for pumping out mines, an application which required a lot of force but tolerated a relatively slow engine. The torque T supplied by a Hero style turbine is given by the rule

T = p × 2a × r

whee p is the steam pressure, a the area of each exhaust nozzle and r the radius of the turbine.

The torque provided by a Watt beam engine was given by a similar rule

T = p × a × l

where p is now the pressure difference between the boiler and the condenser, a the area of the cylinder and l is the beam length.

The early Watt engines were huge, with beam lengths of over 3 meters compared to the few centimeters for the length of hero turbines. This is a factor of 100 difference. In terms of diameter of bore a practical Hero turbine would not have exceeded 1 cm against half a meter for a Watt engine. This is a factor of about 2500 greater area for the Watt machine. Let us assume both operate at the same steam pressure, since the technology of boiler construction was initially the limiting factor. That means that the torque of an early Watt engine was about a quarter of a million times greater than an aeolipile.

Could you build an aeolipile that generated comparable torque?

Well yes if you had arms a couple of meters long on the turbine and nozzles a half a meter in diameter, then the torque would be comparable. But the nozzles of the aeolipile are open to the air, so a nozzle half a meter across would use up an entirely impractical quantity of steam.



An aeolipile is only practical as a power generating device if the revolutions per second are very high. A small torque multiplied by a very high number of revs per second can generate a useful amount of power.

The aeolipile had to go through a series of of steps before it could be converted, in the 1880s into practical turbines by Laval and Parson. The first practical use of of a reaction turbine was for Laval’s cream separator. This required very rapid rotation, around 1000rpm, to centrifugally separate cream from milk, so a high speed device was desirable. Laval’s first prototype was based on the aeolipile but heavily geared down using friction gear to get it down to 1000rpm. His second prototype switched to the impulse principle – directing a jet of high pressure steam against a rotating set of turbine blades.

Rotation speeds were very high the 300hp turbine in Table 1 had a peripheral velocity of 366M/s or 1317Kmph – supersonic velocity.

Between the start of steam power and the first practical use of a reaction turbine over 100 years elapsed, during which many engineers came up with suggestions for turbines. But it was not until the 1880s that Parson and Laval designs actual got into use. They depended on having high pressure steam, precision engineering and high strength steels to work. None of these were available to the Romans. They did not have the blast furnaces and forges necessary to make the wrought iron for boilers, far less the Bessemer converters to produce the steel for turbine blades. Steam turbines only became practical as a source of power once industrial society was in full swing.

Well even if turbines were not practical, what stopped the Romans building something like one of Watt’s engines?

Basically a lack of scientific knowledge. The Watt engine depended for its power stroke on atmospheric pressure. Steam was supplied at near atmospheric pressure, and then condensed to create a vacuum. That depended in turn on two key prior concepts – the discovery of atmospheric pressure by Torricelli, and the concept of heat as a quantity to be conserved developed by Watt’s supervisor at Glasgow Prof. Black.

Technologies have an order of dependence to them that can not be arbitrarily skipped over. Without the knowledge and skills associated with a particular stage of technology, you can not simply go on to develop the next. (emphasis mine)

>>2815840
It clearly is, if you are arguing that the same historical conditions prevail today as those of 2000 years ago you should shut the fuck up and reflect on what led you to that argument

>>2815741
You are conflating exploitation with slave ownership in order to rescue the position of a retard. This is pointless, just admit slavery and slave ownership does not exist today as the dominant mode of production

>>2815483
>I find your reply extremely refreshing.
thank you, I feel the same way when I see you posting about stuff like this >>2813720 here
>the rest of your reply
you are a legalist, this is where you lose me (but I guess I invited you to take this route of argumentation since I defended communism on "programatic" grounds), sorry if this is not the type of answer you were expecting
>So, what is the communist justification?
I simply don't care about a rational "justification" for communism or for anything in general (I'm aware claiming that is paradoxical when I'm engaging in a debate like this), this is why I care little about the theory of history that comes with it thats often used as a "justification" for it. I understand communism as simply proletarian struggle that taken to is logical conclusion does away with private property and the State, and I don't think the proletariat needs to justify anything to anyone (not even to themselves really). If I see it happening I will support it simply because the alternative is what we already have, bourgeois dictatorship and ossified institutions. When you ask for a justification, my reflex is to reply, justify it to whom? Who is above? You? Me? If you say "Reason" or "the Law" or something like that, I would reply thats part of the delusions of progress you claim we should do away with, and the entire idea of seeking justifications is an extension of those delusions, we are still animals at the end of the day (this is why I don't like the "socialism or barbarism" framing, a degree of barbarism will be needed to do away with private propiety and the parasitic state, just as it was needed to do away with the monarchies, which still exist, since progress isn't real)
>There are communist lawyers
lots of them, too many

>>2816157
Then if you have accepted slave ownership is not the dominant mode the argument is finished. Attempting to point out technicalities through the use of a para-ethic in terms such as exploitation is meaningless at best, and reduced to the same transhistorical retardation Smith anon engages in at worst.

This argument is over

>>2816154
>You are conflating exploitation with slave ownership in order to rescue the position of a retard.
I wasn't trying to rescue his position at all
> just admit slavery and slave ownership does not exist today as the dominant mode of production
Is it an "admission" (concession) if that was part of my position to begin with?

Quoting myself from >>2815741
<A social group can have many ways of producing goods. But one way is the main way. That main way gives the society its key character. A change happens when the main way changes. We can understand this process using two ideas. First idea: Formal taking over. Capital first takes over old work processes. It does not change them in a big way. This explains how a boss could profit from slave work. For example, this happened on American plantations. That happened before the system was fully changed. Second idea: Real taking over. When the capitalist way becomes main, it changes the work process itself. It uses new tools and new ways of organizing work. This makes the work fully capitalist.

I was using excessively simple language but my point was even if slavery existed in capitalist economies like the USA in the 1800s or even the USA today in the prison system, it is not the primary form of exploitation, wage labor is. And even though there was wage labor for artisans in ancient time, it wasn't primary.

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>>2816162
>through the use of a para-ethic in terms such as exploitation
exploitation is part of marx's theory though. You see the term pop up in both chapter and section headings in Capital, as wlel as throughout the text. Marx does not use it as a simplistic ethical term, it refers to the skimming of surplus value in any mode of production. I wasn't arguing with you I was responding to you and Smith Anon, trying to clarify your position. I literally agree with you and you're taking a tone like I'm arguing with you. So you seem confused. I don't even agree with smith anon that nothing has changed since slave times, or that wage labor is just slavery. I was putting your words in a way I felt he might better understand.

Also sorry my comment was deleted. I rewrote it to make more clear which of my own posts I was quoting.

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>>2816164
>>2816167
hahaha that guy is too wrathful and prideful to accept you agree with him so he has to pretend like he won a fight that never happened in the first place. peak imageboard chud behavior.
>>2816162
>exploitation is a para-ethic term bro
read marx, holy fucking shit, the term appears 115 times in my translation of volume 1, alone.

new thread >>2816172
new thread >>2816172
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new thread >>2816172
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new thread >>2816172
new thread >>2816172
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>>2816139
>Technologies have an order of dependence to them that can not be arbitrarily skipped over. Without the knowledge and skills associated with a particular stage of technology, you can not simply go on to develop the next.
Sure, but the claim then becomes one of technological determinism, and so fatality upon the prospect of political action. This is the main error, that if we consider the development of history simply as the means by which we relate to instruments of production, then a post-capitalist era is signified as simply being consequential of an innovation in production, and so the Philosopher's Stone of social transformation. The issue is that Marx's criticism of capitalism is not simply based in its capacity for production, but its manner of distribution, or in how the relations of production are given from the mode of production. The issue of the syllogism (production-distribution/exchange-consumption) then is not in the mode of production, but in its relations. The top-down management of labour is permitted, so long as the social product has a greater share. This is also the point on commodity exchange; we can say that a product is made as a commodity, but it can only become a commodity in its mode of exchange, and so commodity production is entirely contingent to production as such, and only an accident of exchange:
<Lastly nothing can have value, without being an object of utility. If the thing is useless, so is the labour contained in it; the labour does not count as labour, and therefore creates no value.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
<A commodity proves that it is a commodity in exchange.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/1868-syn/ch01.htm
Thus, Robinson Crusoe makes no commodities, although he labours (in other words, the commodity is not produced, it is circulated, as a social abstraction; i.e. "value"). Marx thought he could establish a world communist revolution in the 19th century, and so capitalism is not determined by technical knowledge, but the coup d'etat of the state by capitalists, such as in various periods of primitive accumulation. So, history is not simply technological determinism, but the political subjectivity of classes as they conflict with each other. Capitalist technology is socialist technology, so long as the means of production are seized. So, relations of production are primary to the mode of production. This then makes politics (i.e. class warefare) our primary concern for social transformation.

>>2816155
>I simply don't care about a rational "justification" for communism
But this is the problem; if you support something, you must think it is good, that is, ethically correct - you cannot escape this. If something is good therefore, it is justified. So, if you hold a positive political position, you are inherently justifying it, otherwise, why promote it?
>I understand communism as simply proletarian struggle that taken to is logical conclusion does away with private property and the State, and I don't think the proletariat needs to justify anything to anyone (not even to themselves really).
Communism is not a proletarian movement, it is a priestly project of intellectuals. The proletariat lack any meaningful self-consciousness, and the communist has always found an astonishing frustration with the reactionary masses for these reasons, per Lenin:
<The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own effort, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers, and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc. The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical, and economic theories elaborated by educated representatives of the propertied classes, by intellectuals. By their social status the founders of modern scientific socialism, Marx and Engels, themselves belonged to the bourgeois intelligentsia.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/ii.htm
Thus, communism is a brain-child of the bourgeoisie!
>we are still animals at the end of the day
Animals are often more rational than human beings. It just sounds like you are being wilfully ignorant to avoid ethical responsibility. Wash your penis.

>>2816148
>It clearly is
no they are wrong on purpose. the insistence on this framing is political


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