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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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I recently started reading Lukacs's ontology of a social being and my whole understanding of dialectics has been flipped.

Originally, I had read Engels' Anti-Duhring, in which he argues that dialectical analysis is essentially a physical interaction, which, in human societies, translate into different classes fighting for their existence and needs (i.e. the bourgeoisie wants low salaries, the proletariat needs higher salaries, conflict occurs = law of interpenetration of opposites). The argument is very "physicalist" and relies on seeing nature as a totality in constant mutation.

HOWEVER, Lukacs seems to completely disregard this. Instead, his dialectics could be best described by the following : Any individual has multiple possibilities to realize his "teleological acts" (conscious acts aimed at satisfaction of desires/needs/sustenance etc). Alienation occurs when he is constrained by an external cause to choose a possibility unsatisfactory compared to others. As such, the dialectic is essentially a movement between the individual who attempts to overcome this alienation, which translates into class war (proletariat see capitalism as irrational for them, but are forced to endure it => conflict with the bourgeoisie).

So, which is it ? Lukacs' dialectics imo can be reconciled with Engels, but it makes the latter's work appear as very superficial.
146 posts and 13 image replies omitted.

>>2763474
>Would you not rather say that this is is moral judgement
nope

>>2763484
If two people have opposing thoughts on what is "true and righteous" does necessarily make either of them correct, and the other, false? Clearly not (since both could be incorrect), so then truth and righteousness must be considered as something separate from our judgement upon it, since our judgement may be false.

>>2763489
morality doesn't scale

>>2763490
Could you explain this statement, please?

>>2763474
>would you not say that this is "improper"?
no, i would not. i would say quite the opposite in fact. "improper" implies it could be any other way
>If I "assert without proof", then any assertion is as good as any other
that's plainly untrue. you don't even believe it. if you did then you would believe asserting that pleano arithmetic is inconsistent is just as "good" as asserting that it is inconsistent.
>If we agree as to the nature of the good, then are we not obliged by it?
obligations are interpersonal social relations, not relations between people and abstract propositions.
>The exercise in deconstructing basic rhetorical statements such as "rape is wrong" is to show that it cannot be said to not be wrong, or at least, it cannot be said, but why?
it can be said to be wrong, and it can also be said. it simply cannot be proven in the sense of deductive proof.


>>2763493
>no, i would not.
So, you reject the concept of requiring evidence for truth claims?
>that's plainly untrue
And what justifies this statement?
>obligations are interpersonal social relations, not relations between people and abstract propositions.
So you don't understand the duty one has to the truth? If you are confronted with truth, you are indeed obliged to accept it.
>it can be said to be [not] wrong,
No it cant, otherwise you would have had the balls to say it already.
>it simply cannot be proven in the sense of deductive proof.
What if "morality" can be defined in such a way so as to derive a deductive proof? This is the error in your thinking; you are presupposing a definition of morality without explicating it. Can you please define the term "morality" for me?

>>2763501
>you reject the concept of requiring evidence for truth claims?
first of all, evidence is not equivalent to proof. second, any standard of evidence, i.e. that which defines what counts as evidence or not, is itself unprovable without either appealing to itself or contriving a new standard to appeal to and so on.
>what justifies this statement?
the two sentences that immediately follow the sentence you have quoted here.
> you would have had the balls to say it already
i did say it multiple times in this thread.
>What if "morality" can be defined in such a way so as to derive a deductive proof?
you could do that just fine. you would be asserting a definition of morality without proof, and then deriving proofs from this assertion, just as with any deductive process.
>Can you please define the term "morality" for me?
a "morality" is a socially constructed system of ethics through which truth-values are assigned to normative propositions. what distinguishes morality as a species of ethics is that it identifies the category of "true" normative claims with the category of "good" and "false" normative claims with the category of "bad".

>>2763384
>you are providing continually contradictory remarks.
No lol you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that people are generally altruistic nor that morality was centered around that. I merely said that when people don't act """selfishly""", it's generally because they value more their socialization than their ego. If you want to make replies and derail my post, at least make it properly.

> you deny human being?

non sequitur

>then we must share common values.

So it's not standard then, it's "common".

>necessity is le good

This is just an argument as to why we value things that are necessary to our existence lmfao. Please don't tell me you made all these shitposts just to say that.

>And can judgements be either correct or incorrect where it regards goodness

We can be incorrect in what we think we value, just like we can be wrong about which food we think we like.

> that there is something called "good" which we are relating to?

You've kept trying to evade defining your own position, and have only (probably after >50 posts) defined what constitutes "good" now. And, as it turns out, you're just saying that what is good is what is necessary for our own existence. I don't disagree with this, IF you presume existence to be valued by the subjective self. HOWEVER, in this scenario you don't explain why we assess certain things to be good beyond the necessity of maintaining our existence.

>>2763447
>>2763451
I don't understand why you insist on starting new debates that you will just lose and be dishonest about. I genuinely can't fathom why someone would subject themselves to this.

>>2763540
>Evidence
Since you are as obtuse as ever, please demonstrate to me an example of a statement which has correctness compared to one that doesn't, so that we may understand your contention between what you personally claim (which must presume correctness) as opposed to that which you disagree with. Or is it wrong to say that in your 'unproven' assertions, you do not even attribute correctness as a quality to statements? In which case, why on earth are you talking to me, if you deny the distinction between the true and the false?
>i did say it multiple times in this thread.
No you didn't; I extracted it from you by inference and you have entered upon me again, hissy-fitting that I have forced your hand with "tricks". There is nothing tricky about what I write, but you are full of evasions.
>deduction
Right, so you accept the validity of deductive proofs, then, so what is all this controversy about?
>Morality
You are debasing morality to semiotics, rather than a science of human activity, which is your error. As I have constantly asked, "why do we value (x) over (y)?"
>>2763547
>I never said that people are generally altruistic nor that morality was centered around that
>common values
Do you accept that as biological species, we necessarily share common values?
>This is just an argument as to why we value things that are necessary
So you agree that our highest values correspond to necessity?
>We can be incorrect in what we think we value
How do you tell the difference?
>what is good is what is necessary for our own existence
No, its more abstract; what is necessary to our existence comprises "health" which continues our being (and so is our highest value), but goodness itself does not depend upon relative valuation (since then, health would only be best if we were unhealthy). If health is good because it causes the extension of our being, then the ends, not the means of health must itself be what is best. Thus, what is good is being itself, since all good things in relation to beings come from this cause. As yet, evil is said to partake in being, but evil is a negation of being, not a being unto itself.
>I don't disagree with this, IF you presume existence to be valued by the subjective self. HOWEVER, in this scenario you don't explain why we assess certain things to be good beyond the necessity of maintaining our existence.
There is no further cause than being itself. Why would existence require more than its necessary maintenance? And since you invoke goodness, could you also share your definition of it, please?

>>2763612
>demonstrate to me an example of a statement which has correctness compared to one that doesn't
i already have multiple times.
>No you didn't
yes i did.
>I have forced your hand with "tricks".
you didn't force my hand. i circumvented it by denying you your preferred framing, and then you conceded the point. we've been over this.
>so you accept the validity of deductive proofs, then, so what is all this controversy about?
whether there is any valid and non-ciecular "proof" for the truth value of any given normative proposition.
>You are debasing morality to semiotics
not all semiotics are concerned with truth-value assignment. regardless, this isn't an argument. just more rhetorical moralism without a shred of intellectual force.

>>2763653
>i already have multiple times.
Okay, so what is the qualification which distinguishes between the true and false?

>>2763612
>we necessarily share common values?
No not necessarily but you're going to chimp out and say "WHAAAT YOU DENY THAT WE CAN ALL AGREE ON CERTAIN THINGS OMG"

> you agree that our highest values correspond to necessity?

No, reading skill issue.
"IF you presume existence to be valued by the subjective self. HOWEVER, in this scenario you don't explain why we assess certain things to be good beyond the necessity of maintaining our existence"
Frankly this would be easier if you just stopped trying to be dishonest and put words in my mouth. Focus on the arguments here to make good b8, otherwise it's too obvious.

>How do you tell the difference?

STILL mistaking the process for the object holy christ lmfao

>and so is our highest value

First presupposition, and arguably begging the question

>then the ends, not the means of health must itself be what is best

Second (and quite massive lol) presupposition

>what is good is being itself, since all good things in relation to beings come from this cause

Non sequitur, coming from a quality-error

>but evil is a negation of being

Third presupposition

You're presupposing being to be the highest value because it's the precondition for value (and then make a weird and unasserted claim about evil being the negation of being). This is pretty much the randian argument101 but less developed and more retarded.
Again, as always, you're still making a quality error of what morality is in-itself.
Morality is a judgement made on things, it's an assessment. When you say that being is our highest value because it's the precondition of value, you're saying that to have values implies valuing being. This is (somewhat) correct, but this does not contradict my claims. All you have proven is the transcendental nature of valuing one own's life if he has other values. You have not proven however the objectivity (or the moral realist) position of your beliefs in morals.

>Why would existence require more than its necessary maintenance?

Because our existence rhymes with eternal search for happiness and satisfaction ? But you're going to stretch the definition of existence to imply this.

>could you also share your definition of it, please?

I'm not invoking it and I've already given you the definition multiple times

>>2763655
>what is the qualification which distinguishes between the true and false?
standards of evidence, of which there are multiple, and which themselves have to either be unproven or appealing to another unproven standard. in symbolic logic we call these standards truth-value assignment functions.

>>2763689
>standards of evidence
What measures the standard of evidence?
What makes a statement either true or false?
>>2763680
>not necessarily
But this is plainly contradictory since if values emerge from biology and we share biology, we necessarily share values; this commonness I earlier referred to as "human being" (i.e. being "human"). Do you then deny our common human being?
>IF you presume existence to be valued by the subjective self
It is a necessary presumption.
>You're presupposing being to be the highest value because it's the precondition for value
Yes, the same way you base values in "biology" - but refuse to elaborate.
>Morality is a judgement made on things, it's an assessment.
An assessment of WHAT?
>search for happiness and satisfaction
Which can be defined negatively as being free from unhappiness and dissatisfaction. Indulging in pleasure leads to suffering, while evading suffering leads to its lack. Thus, how can you be more "happy" than in a position of being free from sources of unhappiness? (i.e. the maintenance of our being).
>wont define goodness
Please stop talking to me if youre this unserious.

>>2763540
idk why you are being so autistic they openly are
>contriving a new standard to appeal to
your issue isnt with them not understanding its you rejecting their standard they have declared subjectively sufficient. thats not the same thing. and thats on top of the fact that we know youre a weasily shithead who wont apply this standard to yourself
>>2763653
>i circumvented it by denying you your preferred framing
see, just like i predicted. why is your denial more justified than their approval? its not, you cant prove that without contriving your own subjective standard thats equally valid as theirs by the same measure

>>2763702
>we necessarily share values
Not necessarily but coincidentally. As explained previously, our values come from experiences (and inferred knowledge about situations) where our brain "rewards" us through the reward system. Every individual is unique, so every individual is always going to have a different phenomenal input of the world, leading to different values.

>the same way you base values in "biology" - but refuse to elaborate

that you refuse to read* : >>2762537
From the constant self-referencing that I make it's become obvious you have gotten filtered by this.

>An assessment of WHAT?

Are you retarded ? Of our experiences. Dude this has been said like 10 000 times already

>*stretches the definition of the maintenance of a being to include happiness*

Yup, called it.

>stop talking to me if youre this unserious

lmfao you're making randian arguments and refuse to read and you think I'm the one being unserious ? Genuine question btw.

So do I take for granted that you've conceded that :
>evil is not the negation of being
>morality is an assessment of a given thing, and not a thing in-itself
>reason is not the source of morality but a mean to inquire about our assessments
>that morality is not necessarilly truth-apt

Given that you haven't replied to these points

>>2763736
You're not understanding what he's saying dumbass.

>>2763702
>What measures the standard of evidence?
this is a totally meaningless question until you specify what predicate dimension you want a metric for.
>What makes a statement either true or false?
standards of evidence, of which there are multiple, and which themselves have to either be unproven or appealing to another unproven standard. in symbolic logic we call these standards truth-value assignment functions.
>>2763736
>they openly are contriving a new standard to appeal to
yeah i know, that's my point.
>we know youre a weasily shithead who wont apply this standard to yourself
i do very openly and eagerly apply it to myself.
>why is your denial more justified than their approval?
you are so confused lmao

>>2763755
>yeah i know, that's my point.
if they are doing it openly then thats not a point.

>>2763919
>if they are doing it openly then thats not a point.
it is, because even once you've contrived another standard, now that standard is subject to the same foundational crisis. either some other standard evidences it, or it is unevidenced. there is no such thing as self-evidence.

>>2763931
>now that standard is subject to the same foundational crisis
its not because their threshold for justification is lower than yours, hence subjective. you are literally bitching about someone having a different opinion

>>2763941
i am bitching about someone having the opinion that their opinion is actually objectively demonstrably by force of pure reason alone. he does not recognize anything subjective about anything going on here.


>>2764022
the thing in question is whether normative claims, particularly moral ones, are matters of constructed opinion or demonstrable fact. you say that i just have a disagreement of opinion, and i say yes! tell that to the other guy!

File: 1775100785964.png (301.78 KB, 800x800, ClipboardImage.png)


>>2764041
you are epstein. you are a zionist.

>>2763755
>standards of evidence provide truth to statements
As a practical exercise, provide a standard of evidence to this statement to demonstrate its truth.
>>2763743
>Not necessarily but coincidentally.
No; by necessity. You misunderstand logic.
>Every individual is unique
And every individual is common, by belonging to a more general kind, type or species. Your denial of humanity leads you to this irrational individualism. You do accept our common human being, right? We are both human. We are both of a biological species.
>Of our experiences.
This does not answer anything. What is assessed according to morality? Saying that it is "experience" is incoherent. Morality assesses what is "good" and "bad" - in experience, you mean. Once we clarify this, it then leads you to define what is "good" and "bad", unless you simply mean what is "preferential" and "valued", for which you owe clarification (e.g. to deny the category of morality itself; relatively or absolutely). If not, what is the meaning of "good"?
>I'm the one being unserious?
You are purposefully failing to advance the discussion, wasting everyone's time. If you disagree with my definition of the good (e.g. being, which by necessity, attains its own means and end) and I ask you to give an alternative definition, but you decline, then you are meaninglessly forestalling things.
>Evil as negation
If being is good, then all evil negates from being. Sickness is a lack of health; death is a lack of life.
>Morality is as an assessment of a given thing
And if a thing is assessed as "good", it is either good (i) relatively, and/or (ii) absolutely.
>reason is not the source of morality but a mean to inquire about our assessments
Which causes the question, can assessments be incorrect? In which case, reason provides correct moral assessment. You already said that we can be mistaken about our values, so then, correct judgement of our values must be a rational process. So then, reason allows us to know what is truly good and evil, and by this, our assessments change.
>morality is not necessarily truth-apt
If "morality" describes some-thing, correct and incorrect judgements can be made of this thing (e.g. the good), and so a correct judgement provides truth of the thing. So then, can moral judgements (i.e. "assessments") be either true or false?

>>2764310
Dude you're still at this ? Just admit you got filtered lol

>No; by necessity. You misunderstand logic

What is this going to be about again. Just spill the beans so we can see where you're wrong.

>You do accept our common human being, right

You do accept the individuality of phenomenal experience, right ?

>unless you simply mean what is "preferential" and "valued"

Took you long enough

>for which you owe clarification

look back on the "word vomit"

>You are purposefully failing to advance the discussion, wasting everyone's time

<ignores my argument
<presumes his definition to be correct without justification
<constantly miswords and misrepresents the other side
Yep, you're smith anon all right.

>If being is good, then all evil negates from being. Sickness is a lack of health; death is a lack of life

pretty much sums up what was just said : you define goodness as being and refuse to justify this. You then define evil as the opposite of good, and thus infer that it's the negation of being. However, the first premise is still not justified.

>reason allows us to know what is truly good and evil, and by this, our assessments change.

That doesn't make it the source tho

>So then, can moral judgements (i.e. "assessments") be either true or false?

That's not what truth-apt refers to here retard

>>2764808
>pretty much sums up what was just said
me too when i said hes a hypocritical shithead who applies standards only to his opposition

my bad for abandoning polecongen(at his request lol) and spurring him to post out of containment

>>2764835
Huh ? What do you mean?


>>2764853
Is he like some retarded child that needs to be entertained lol ? What kind of dumb monkey degenerate is he ?

>>2764883
i think hes addicted to public humiliation

>>2764808
>You do accept the individuality of phenomenal experience, right ?
Yes, which is extensive of our collective being, which you still fail to affirm, drifting into idle fantasy. You invoke "biology" and then dismiss it. You are living a lie.
>Took you long enough
Right, so you would deny the category of "the good" itself?
>you define goodness as being and refuse to justify this.
I already justified it by relating it to your concept of relative valuation; your only retort is to say that a being is not necessitated by the investment in its own being - failing to see that if one "is", they are actively continuing their existence, placing value in it. Unless someone kills themself, they necessarily value life.
>That doesn't make it the source tho
The source of what? Our preferences or the category of goodness?
>That's not what truth-apt refers to
So, can correct and incorrect assessments be made? You are gradually melting into an evasive, insulting pest - What happened to your capacity to advance this discussion?

>>2762500
>And if they are different, could you please explain the difference?
If you mean the difference between classical ideas of dialectic and something like Hegel's development, Hegel's own centers around a reconciliation of oppositions. "Reconciliation" shouldn't be understood here as negotiating a middle position between extremes (which did happen in classical dialectic), but recognizing the truth of the oppositions is found (and the contradictions resolved) in their subsumption in something beyond the opposed positions.

In classical dialectic, one (or a few) views tend to get preferential treatment after the presentation and discussion of each view (showing some to be implausible or false in some way, others to be plausible or true), while a characteristic Hegelian move would be stepping back from the oppositions (after reaching an impasse of sorts upon arriving at the contradictions inherent to each position when taken by itself, similar to reaching "aporia" in Plato) to look at what the oppositions mean together, as a whole. Plato arguably gets close to something like this in "Parmenides," but there isn't a step back in the dialogue, just apparent impasses (even if the contradictions are "together" in a way, in the one).

>>2765273
>negotiating a middle position between extremes (which did happen in classical dialectic)
Yes, well we see this employed in Plato [266e-267c] which produces the infamous "featherless biped" conclusion - but in the argument of the Eleatic stranger, these divisions occur where as he puts it, subdivision of "types" or "kinds" are made most generally, while what is particular is still contained in the type. Plato emphasises middleness at [265a-b]. Aristotle also later sees that the "golden mean" is ideal.

>the truth of the oppositions is found (and the contradictions resolved) in their subsumption in something beyond the opposed positions.

Isn't this just the process of abstraction? If two things belong to one thing, then one thing gives identity to each, as different types of the one. Opposition here implies contradiction, however (which Aristotle describes as the contrariness of things, particularly in the modality of positive and negative claims). For example, an answer to a question cannot be both "yes" and "no" (in receiving the same conclusion), and so the dialectic resolves this contradiction by developing the logic of internal consistency (e.g. computational algorithms are a type of dialectic, since they process inputs by a chain of binaries until a final result is given). Contradiction can only be "resolved" by giving separateness to contraries. A ≠ B, if B ≠ A.

In personally reading Hegel, he mediates appears to mediate contradiction by mutual negativity (e.g. A in itself relates to B by not-A and not-B having abstract equivalence as becoming) beginning in the second law of logic; the law of non-contradiction; and so he does not imply that A = B, except by syllogism; e.g.
(i) if, A = B
(ii) and, B = C
(iii) then, A = C
This is also abstracted by different modes, however, where A is singular, B is particular and C is universal. Hegel does not equate contrary beings (A, B, C) in themselves, since that would be a contradiction.

Further, the method of self-identity in opposites is already present in ancient thought, such as in Heraclitus and Lao Tzu, who both invoke the formula of non-being (i.e. becoming) as the unity of things. Lao Tzu calls this Tao, while Heraclitus calls it Logos. Thus, contradiction is not unified positively, but negatively. The issue is clear however, since negativity cannot provide unity, since negative identity already presupposes duality as the basis of becoming. Thus the yin-yang is two-in-one. But this then causes three, as Lao Tzu also writes, in tandem with Pythagoras - Plato stumbles upon the same issue in [259a-b]; between plurality and singularity. Plato was not a naive monist. The Christian trinity also mirrors this, but in more dogmatic terms (e.g. being as both one and many).

>In classical dialectic, one (or a few) views tend to get preferential treatment

You mean that a logical conclusion follows a discussion of opposing views?
>what the oppositions mean together, as a whole.
Which in Plato can be entirely mapped out by dialectical disgression of subdivision into types. Plato is a thinker of totality, which means connecting the whole to its parts.
>Plato arguably gets close to something like this in "Parmenides," but there isn't a step back in the dialogue, just apparent impasses
Which means that first principles must be reformulated; the endless task of the philosopher.

>>2765322
>Further, the method of self-identity in opposites is already present in ancient thought, such as in Heraclitus and Lao Tzu, who both invoke the formula of non-being (i.e. becoming) as the unity of things. Lao Tzu calls this Tao, while Heraclitus calls it Logos.
I wouldn't say this is equivalent to what happens in Hegel, though. While there is a similarity of unity (in spirit or the absolute for Hegel), the "beyond" that subsumes the oppositions in the dialectical working-through isn't immediately spirit or the absolute, but something encompassing the particular oppositions. For Hegel, it would be wrong to see the contradictions as subsumed within spirit as the immediate result of the contradictions found in the given oppositions.

>You mean that a logical conclusion follows a discussion of opposing views?

One would hope, but not always. There are occasional problems in Plato's logic, for example, but it can be hard to tell whether these are mistakes on Plato's part or "mistakes" intended to show something. I think Leo Strauss, for example, believed some of the logical problems in "The Republic" were deliberate and the work was in part satirical, while Stanley Rosen thought they mostly weren't and came to a different conclusion about the work, even while largely accepting many of Strauss's points.

Regardless, I'm not saying the process is irrational or "bad" in some way (Aristotle seems to try to represent as many credible starting points as possible when being dialectical), so this isn't intended as a partisan point "against" classical dialectic. I'm only saying it's distinct from what Hegel does.

>Plato is a thinker of totality, which means connecting the whole to its parts.

It's not that Plato isn't concerned about totality, but the "together, as a whole" I meant in what you quoted is the "together, as a whole" of the given oppositions at the stage of the development of the logic.

>Which means that first principles must be reformulated; the endless task of the philosopher.

I don't find it impossible that he left the task of "stepping back" for the reader to work out as a kind of exercise, given what happens in the dialogue and the apparent propaedeutic purpose of most or all the dialogues for the esoteric Platonism at the Academy, but I didn't want to be overly conclusive about it, thus the "arguably." So I do think it's close to Hegel's dialectic, although it's still a bit off since it seems to resolve into the Parmenidean one. It does work through the logic in a way that is a step beyond (what we have of) the real Parmenides, Heraclitus, and Taoism, though.

>>2765353
>I wouldn't say this is equivalent to what happens in Hegel,
You wouldn't? Hegel's Logic begins by a disputation of the unity of being, introducing negativity as a means of its becoming, and similarly concludes that the Idea (or being as such) is striven for, but is ultimately unattainable by its constituent parts:
<The absolute Idea has turned out to be the identity of the theoretical and the practical Idea. Each of these by itself is still one-sided, possessing the Idea only as a sought for beyond and an unattained goal; each, therefore, is a synthesis of endeavour, and has, but equally has not, the Idea in it […] the absolute Idea alone is being, imperishable life, self-knowing truth, and is all truth.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlabsolu.htm#HL3_824
This he essentially resolves to a process of thought thinking itself, like Aristotle's prime mover of the cosmos, and so where there is thinking, there is becoming, while what is being in itself, is, as he resolves it in Fichtean terms, form without content, and thus, it is immediate. I agree to this position, that knowledge is a category of ignorance (i.e. mediation), for to come into knowing is to negate the unknown, while noumenon is unthought. I criticise Plato on this point as compared to Lao Tzu here: >>>/edu/25682
>There are occasional problems in Plato's logic
Can you provide an example?
>the "together, as a whole" of the given oppositions at the stage of the development of the logic.
You are seemingly unclear as to what you mean by "opposition" here. If you are referring to "contradiction", then what is positive is defined by what can be negated. Plato in Republic describes dialectic as a purely negative act of moving to truth by subtracting from untruth (that is, particularising from the general, so as to refine it). So, does truth include the untrue in itself? No, yet untruth is still related to truth by negativity. There is a similar issue with Parmenides, where if Being is One, does it include non-being in itself? If all is one, then we come into apparent impossibility, which is the crisis of all abstraction (whether idealist or materialist).
>It does work through the logic in a way that is a step beyond (what we have of) the real Parmenides, Heraclitus, and Taoism, though.
If you haven't read it before, I would sugest you read Aristotle's Metaphysics, Book I, which goes through a progressive history of philosophical thought up to his time (600 BCE - 330 BCE):
https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metaphysics.1.i.html

>>2765244
leftypol is bugging so I have to divide my answer but :

>which is extensive of our collective being

>Collective being
There is no such thing as collective being. We may share common experience but we are not a singular consciousness anon.

>>2766000
>so you would deny the category of "the good" itself?
Already adressed in prior posts, step up the bait anon

>I already justified it by relating it to your concept of relative valuation

I'm simply using this example to show you your dishonesty. I had to pull the worms out of your nose to get you to formulate a coherent position, and, as it turns out, you're just repeating mine but under different terms.

>Our preferences or the category of goodness

False dichotomy

>>2766002
>So, can correct and incorrect assessments be made?
That's not what truth-apt refers to. Truth-apt refers to a statement containing a proposition which can be true or false. It's not about correct/incorrect but true/false. (as correct/incorrect would imply a referential point).

>>2766003
>What happened to your capacity to advance this discussion
It took >100 posts for you to essentially admit that your conception of morality is essentially the following :
>what is morality ?
<morality is about judging the actions in relation to self-regulation
>how do you define good then ?
<what is good is what maintains and upholds being, and what is bad is the negation of said-being
>but why is that good ?
<this is because being encompasses happinnes
<hence morality is about judging actions in relation to what makes us happy

You're literally a position similar to mine : we determine goodness and badness in relation to what makes us happy. You're just semantically nitpicking and baiting for debates because you're a troll.

>>2766002
>>2766003
>>2766005
>>2766000
>There is no such thing as collective being
So when I say "we are both human beings", you deny this?
You have dodged this question, so please answer it.
>Already adressed in prior posts
No it isnt, so please clarify: do you believe in the category of goodness? You believe in preference and valuation, but do these signify virtue?
>You're literally a position similar to mine
How can I tell when you don't reveal your position?
>we determine goodness and badness in relation to what makes us happy
That is not my position - It is goodness which determines our wellbeing, not our wellbeing which determines goodness. "Happiness" is also a false term, since as we have discovered, we may willingly suffer for the sake of others, and so the good forces us to suffer, for the sake of something greater than happiness (e.g. excellence). Further, if one derives happiness from what is harmful to others, is this a determination of virtue, or is it a false judgement upon morality?

>>2766002
>as it turns out, you're just repeating mine but under different terms.
well maybe he just doesnt like your tone! harrumph

>>2766095
We have determined in prior post (>>2764808) that most of your posts rests on begging the question. We can examine multiple of these cases here too.

>So when I say "we are both human beings", you deny this?

I do not deny this. As we can see, you commit to begging the question here. What I am denying is having necessary moral values due to our human species. You are, here, assuming that by having a common human species, we must necessarily share some common values.
Funnily enough, this was noticed earlier on in >>2763680.

>do you believe in the category of goodness?

This has already been cleared in >>2763332.

>How can I tell when you don't reveal your position?

Already have : >>2762537. This is like the fifth time I've done so. Step up your game if you want to keep baiting.

>That is not my position

Then tell me. This is like the third time I've asked you. What is morality, how do we determine it, and how does the criteria you use to determine it makes it "good".

>>2766627
>Then tell me.
Ah but anon… not having a position allows endless baiting…

File: 1775299691288.png (1.66 MB, 1024x794, 0_6CI8AOolgn7-NSiA.png)

>>2766627
>I do not deny this
So our human being is a collective being, correct?
>What I am denying is having necessary moral values due to our human species.
If values derive from "biology" and we share biology, we then share values. That is a necessary sequence.
>moral judgement is relative to something unreal
But if there is a judgement of "morality" then you are affirming the reality of something. Your issue is that you are preserving moral language where you ought to decline to such categorisation. This is part of the same issue as when you claimed that there can be a "bad" taste; no, there can be non-preferential tastes, but preference does not confer morality upon anything. So then, if you wish to conclude, we may agree that preference cannot be synonymised with moral judgement, unless something is preferrred for its abstract moral content. Preference persists amorally, such as in irrational beings.
>What is morality
Morality is a concern with what is good and evil, and thus presupposes their reality (you cannot have morality without a realistic perspective).
>how do we determine it
By reason, hence irrational beings are not subject to moral guilt
>how does the criteria you use to determine it makes it "good"
My criteria is reason. The determination of virtue is in considering what activity is correct to perform and not perform. Correctness is defined in consideration to need, which corresponds to being. Need is the principle of self-cause, for it determines itself. What is necessary is always justified, while what is unnecessary can only be justified under particular conditions. We may then call the process of judgement upon morality "justification" (e.g. "to make good"). We may further call necessity a positively justified, while what is unnecessary is either (i) negatively justified, (ii) positively unjustified, or (iii) negatively unjustified. Thus, we may (i) not-do certain things which are good, (ii) do certain things which are bad, or (iii) not-do certain things - which are bad. In the last case we see that what is "bad" are ends or results, making morality in this case "consequential" or relative to outcome. In the first case then, necessity is an end in itself (e.g. deontological) and so is self-justifying, while in the second case, a lack of necessity either concerns what is (i) self-unjustified by means or (ii) unjustifed by ends. What then concerns ends is a question of valuation, which is both universal and particular, according to the being which we are. Here, necessity also rules universally, but so does contingency in particular. Thus, water quenches the thirst of all men, and so this first (impersonal) case is primarily morally considered (e.g. possessing total value) while in the second case, personality reigns by volition, and preference. As Plato writes therefore, a patient may dislike medicine, but the doctor still has authority over them, by knowing what is "best" for them; the same way the child is governed by parents, as rightful and rational guardians over the irrational. Preference then, is the lowest of all moral concerns, since it is most particular.

I hope this suffices as an explanation.

>>2767174
>If values derive from "biology" and we share biology, we then share values
Why is it that we all see different things despite having the same eyes ? Or why is it that we all have different tastes ?

>But if there is a judgement of "morality" then you are affirming the reality of something

No you're just presupposing your definition of morality to be correct whilst exlcuding other definitions without justification.

>there can be non-preferential tastes, but preference does not confer morality upon anything

<you can't say that something tastes bad because it goes against my logic!!!
lmfao the absolute state

>we may agree that preference cannot be synonymised with moral judgement

We may not. I could also say that morality is in reality purely a emotive language with no genuine content, and that as such everything you have said is false because morality is not truth-apt nor a real object.
As you've noticed, I don't do this because it would be a massive instance of begging the question, which is exactly what you have done since the beginning.

>I hope this suffices as an explanation.

<I define necessity as good and justified
<therefore goodness encompasses necessity teehee
topkek you can't even answer the last question without resting on a massive argumentative fallacy. Try again : why is necessity good without pre-defining it as so.


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