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The replies of thread >>2766805 have been so poor I intended to make a new thread, giving a historical overview of the last few decades of the communist movement.

>What is the difference between:

>Mao Zedong Thought [ML-MZT]
>Maoism-ThirdWorldism [M3W]
<Missing: >Classical Marxism-Leninism-Maoism [classical MLM]. Exemplified by Communist Party of the Philippines and Communist Party of India (Maoist) as key leaders and influences.
>Gonzalo Thought [aka "MLM-pM" and "Gonzaloism"]
>How interrelated are they?

Comrades. don't forget these tools:
<Historical materialism.
<General-Particular-General dialectical spiral in analysis.
<Never capitulate proletarian leadership to reactionary classes.
<Analyze the contradictory relationship of petty-bourgeois ideology to scientific socialism-communism throughout time, which always ends just yesterday.

<50s-70s:

ML-MZT is a part of the revolutionary pole of Marxism-Leninism, along with Socialist Albania and the still revolutionary wave of subsequent parties, red armies and masses internationally basing themselves on this praxis; which fought the reactionary turn that resulted in numerous setbacks in the international workers movement during the post-war period. Influenced both by the hot wars waged in US imperialism's so-called "Cold War" as well as the now great power chauvinist USSR having capitulated the weapon of Lenin and transforming into a social-imperialist obstacle, funding pacifist reformist, anti-revolutionary parties the world over. Mao, in direct communication with parties seeking revolutionary guidance all over the world clarifies a tactical point on protracted peoples war [PPW]: it is a tactic working specifically for semi-colonial / semi-feudal areas and not for largely urbanized or imperialist countries, where the "October road" tactic should be used. This is important to keep in mind later on in the post.
CPP forms in the 60s around Marcos dictatorship period. The party is influenced by ML-MZT.
TKP/ML forms in the 70s in the midst of Turkish state anti-communist repression. Party leader Kaypakkayakaya assassinated early. Reorganizations and splits define this early period until mid 90s.

<80s-90s:

MLM appears as a group of competing interpretations, tendencies, backgrounds (and eventual results), trying to assess the lessons of the Chinese revolution and the potential nature of Maoism as a new stage of development. Abimael Guzman ("Gonzalo") gains influence thinking he has found a "new synthesis" after a trip to China during the Cultural Revolution. The Revolutionary Internationalist Movement [RIM] formed in the mid 80s and peaking in influence in the mid to late 90s, dissolving from inactivity in the early 2010s. Foundational and leading parties were PCP-SL (Gonzalo), RCPUSA (Avakian), TKP/ML and a south asian multitude Maoist groups (pre early 2000s period of reorganization, consolidation and major growth). They end up drawing dispairate conclusions on the fundational question of what 'Maoism'"is".
PCP-SL launches their campaign in the Peruvian countryside, elevating the principal nature of Maoism having been uncovered through 'Gonzalo Thought', growth is made easier in part by the social emiseration through hyperinflation initiated during the social fascist presidency of Alan García. A wrecked population and particularly peruvian agricultural workers of indigenous background, turned to the Maoists. President García commits suicide by gunshot (a rare poetic suicide, the political-economic actions of his admin. clearly "hit the fan" in a similar sense) and is followed by Alberto Fujimori, a Japanese capitalist with deep connection to both Peruvian intelligence as well as supported by US intelligence now actively monitoring the situation). Fujimori is growing a political dynasty in Peru of which he hyper-exploits with clear disdain for the Peruvian people. Later it is revealed that his campaigns were funded and aided by the US, even militarily and that his side murdered more peruvians in the civil war. One tactic tactic utilized by the Fujimori dictatorship was the forced sterilization program disguised as public health / economic development, specifically targeting impoverished Peruvian indigenous women. 300.000 women were sterilized.
The PCP-SL tries to connect the rural base areas by growing into the urban environment. The civil war is now at its peak in a now military dictatorship. Having the entire hierarchy of the party written down and organized on a personal computer in the urban area he hides in, Gonzalo is a single point of failure. In '92 the Peruvian state finds him, raids the place and decapitates the party in one sweep. The Peruvian movement has still not recovered. It's partially due to 'Gonzalo Thought' proclaiming importance to Jefetura transl. 'Great Leadership' which places emphasis on a singular "Great Leader" being a key aspect this theoretical "advance".
RIM's "contribution" then was the announcing the universality of this Maoism, which also includes the "universality" of the PPW, around '93, following his capture.
CPP enters a Second Great Rectification in 1992, a key turn for the party's success, with adjusting their praxis, expelling a variety of negative elements that have managed to enter the organization(s) and which are inflicting problems. Some were literal Gorbachevites that wanted to liquidate the armed communist basis for the legal organizations, others were left-adventurists (people advocating tactics that sound like 90s LatAm adventurists, whether Gonzaloist or Guevarists). CPP seeks to persecute these elements. CPP adopts MLM, without adding 'Gonzalo Thought' "contributions", or joining RIM. these years CPP struggles against such deviationist tendencies, reemerging as hostile parties, kept afloat by petty bourgeois sympathizers, gangster networks and reformists. CPP manages to persecute some (red areas constitute dual power, a state within the bourgeois state of the philippines), others happen to be killed (not proscribed party policy). Brief tumult ensues for some years in the philippine communist movement. CPP emerges victorious.
TKP/ML conflict with state escalates in the mid 90s, in a brutal power struggle. Its power base is the Kurdish community in Turkey. As I have limited info on the situation it's safe to limit the statement to the fact that the repression appears to remain unsuccessful as the culture of the region still is supportive (corresponding to Irish views of IRA / socialist republicans).
RCPUSA takes a turn away and in the late 90s "creates" "his own" "synthesis". It becomes another cult. Today they mostly protest and theatrically praise Bob Avakian himself in the manner a black book of communism chapter would characterize what a socialist mode of production is.
In the 90s M3W is formed as less of a political force and more of… an art project, in North America. Their activity consists of media engagement, primarily online. Their "theoretical elaboration" (that the proletariat in any imperialist nation is structurally incapable of revolution) deviate from MLM and MZT theory and practice, while retaining the militant verbiage and symbolism. They don't last more than a decade in terms of noticeable output, are still technically existing today as "MIM (Prisons)" which also still just posts stuff online, which can be described as "bizarro US exceptionalism".

<2000s-2010s:
Coordination Committee of Maoist Parties and Organizations of South Asia (CCOMPOSA) is founded in 2001.
CPI (Maoist) is formed in 2004, a consolidation of various Indian MZT and Maoist parties, settling the period of competing groups taking influence from the Cultural Revolution. They adhere to MLM, do not reference RIM theory and do not join RIM.
South asian advance of generalized MLM upswing is in full force across India, Nepal and Sri Lanka. The Nepalese PPW advances from defensive, to stalemate, to offensive with the awakening and unification of the regional forces, i.e. MLMs from India and Sri Lanka also aid in this effort. Revisionist China aids the monarchy (in vain, we see in hindsight). In the middle of the 2010s Revisionist China will sanction the DPRK at the behest of US imperialism because they won't back down from repeated threats over several years from the US and China not to develop nuclear military deterrence (the DPRK which just exited a famine period both tanks the Chinese sanction, which lasts a full year, and remains a nuclear power to this day). Online anglo-fluent self-described "communist" MLs (in fact feds revisionists, little difference) love to brush such aspects of the post-'78 CPC under the rug.
Nepalese MLM guerillas seize Kathmandu, capital of Nepal. Dictatorship/monarchy is overthrown. Revisionism sets in within the communist leadership, which is in a Front with MLs (rightists) as well as progressive socdems. First "parliamentary road", at the insistence of the MLs, is agreed upon, then the gradual reduction in interventions of the people's army in society. The revolutionary Maoists sees the writing on the wall and with the guerillas split from the parliamentary faction to maintain a proper line and retreats to rebuild forces. Parliamentary cretinism defines both Prashanda's (the capitulationist former Maoist) and subsequent Oli's (ML) government, as well as lack of a backbone. Unfair trade deals with India, US and China abode. Flagrant corruption is felt and revolutionaries are repressed. after 8+ years India-tier centrist liberals start gaining seats in elections instead. When revisionists so damage the conception of communism so viscerally through bourgeois democracy and media (similarly to contemporary situation in post-eastern bloc countries, who have Gorbachovite period in lived memory), it becomes so much harder to for the communist movement to recover in the short term.
Indian MLMs are boosted simultaneous to the advance of Nepalese Maoist into power. With a more powerful enemy (a post-colonial state adopting imperialist governance logic up to the point of taking Israeli settler-colonialism as example to emulate and a major benefactor of US-led imperialism as well as Chinese-led imperialism) it still maintains a power base in the center of india among the poor, indigenous but tribalized, ethnic minority and dalit ('untouchables' in the caste system).
Maoist Communist Party of Manipur is founded in 2011 in northeast India. It pronounces solidarity with the CPI (Maoist) and mutual connections are formed.
RIM dissolves with a wimper in 2013, having been irrelevant to anything going on in Maoism for some time.

<2020s-Today:

ML-MZT is sustained in the international ICOR, led by the MLPD (Germany), who has spearheaded two internationals around this line, first as the less influential Marxist–Leninist Parties and Organizations (ICMLPO) in the 90s, which then had proximity to Hoxhaist groups as well who shared an international of the same name; it was then replaced by International Coordination of Revolutionary Parties and Organizations (ICOR), started around the 2010s. ML-MZT as practiced by ICOR parties consists of revolutionary communist parties rejecting common ML practical dead-ends today like those of popular-front influenced parliamentary cretinism/reformism, tailism in regards to reactionary tendencies of the imperial core working classes, or letting the party morph into a secluded boomer cult as a result of rejecting MZT advancements like criticism-self-criticism / unity-struggle-unity and the mass line. It takes the mass line engagement with working class areas as "point one". ICOR parties operating in imperialist countries correctly focus on proletariat no faith in national bourgeoisie, and united front from below, i.e. tactics of 'October Road'. ICOR is also close to the most successful Maoist party in the world today, CPP.
CPP's NPA (New People's Army) rural base areas remain stable. NDF, the third layer of the CPP, its political united front, the public-facing and legal layer, involves millions of philippine members, living in urban areas.
Abimael Guzman dies in prison, 86 years old. MLMpM (Gonzaloist) international "International Communist League" [ICL] is formed, spearheaded by "declarations" of western european microparties ejected from domestic ML-MZT parties, who retain their mass base. Some ICL microparties emerge out of what seems to be thin air. Isolated LatAm parties sympathetic to Peruvian experience join, TKP/ML voice hesitant constructive engagement. CPP and CPI (Maoist) levy direct critique against "Gonzalo Thought" theoretical deviation and don't join. The ICL believes PPW is appicable in places like Norway, Belgium, UK, US and that 'Great Leadership' doesnt need to be discarded following the PCP-SL experience.
Indian MLM growth seen in northeast provinces, during regional unrest. In an environment of Hindutva-fascist race riots (see 'Manipur unrest'), gang rapes and ethnic strife, targeted against eurasian and asian looking Indians who are recognized ethnic groups of this region of India, are facing extreme attacks by fascist mobs, with no intervention by BJP-alligned regional police. Northeast Maoists, including organize on unity and reject the ethnic divisions stoked by the ruling class using divide and conquer tactics through the BJP government. Northeast Indian Maoists all voice support for "the Maoists of India", indicating an expanded and/or reorganized CCOMPOSA which could be emerging.
Amorphous Nepalese riots wreck parliament, signs of indirect NED/CIA support. Nepalese people by en large appear to respond to the situation with widespread apathy, as a result of years of revisionist governments betraying them, throwing parliament into question in general. Subsequently the only party growing is a meme candidate, or protest vote, whose key issue is to legalize cannabis.


>Did Deepseek (Chinese AI) give me an imperialist answer in pics 2/3/4 related?

Chinese AI in general, since it is Chinese products and on the Chinese internet, subject to contemporary Chinese regulation, is forbidden to go into any historical detail about any instance the capitalist roaders deem too communist and so they will censor entire decades of their own history (like 1968-1976) and even anything said by the proletarian line of the party (whenever it contradicts any reactionary aspect of their current operation) during the entire socialist period (1949-1976). They go to these lengths because otherwise it also directly contradicts the notion, which they like to propagate, that the CPC still upholds MZT today and didn't overthrow the politics that erected the state they in fact gutted and reoriented towards imperialist integration.
Additionally Wikipedia deliberately collapse terminology and so you will have to forgo Wikipedia articles on anything to do with Mao, the history of the PRC, Maoism and MLM, or nothing about it will become coherent. I recommend Bannedthought as a starter, because they host party documents translated to english and "Marxist" historiography that isn't actually academically & economically boosted to be Trotskyist historiography dune on the second world-historic tradition they want to wreck. (Trotskyists are viewed as "reputable" sources on Wikipedia for socialist-communist articles, so not only for Stalin and USSR history pages, which many seem to believe). Trotskyism is close enough to social fascism and anti-communism to be acceptable, resumably.

File: 1775340230340.png (2.12 MB, 883x1200, ClipboardImage.png)

Thank you Comrade. Death to America and every American: Man, Woman, Child, Animal.

Oh my god we don't need multiple threads of his sophomoric nonsense. People were shitposting on that thread because its a stupid question that should be relegated to qtddtot.

>>2767841
> I recommend Bannedthought as a starter, because they host party documents translated to english and Marxist historiography that isn't actually academically & economically boosted to be Trotskyist historiography dune on the second world-historic tradition they want to wreck. (Trotskyists are viewed as "reputable" sources on Wikipedia for socialist-communist articles, so not only for Stalin and USSR history pages, which many seem to believe). Trotskyism is close enough to social fascism and anti-communism to be acceptable, resumably.
Fucked up that sentence. It's supposed to be:
< I recommend Bannedthought as a starter, because they host party documents translated to english and Marxist historiography that isn't actually academically & economically boosted to be Trotskyist historiography. Trotskyists are viewed as "reputable" sources on Wikipedia for socialist-communist articles, so not only for Stalin and USSR history pages (which many seem to believe), but also for the second world-historic tradition they want to wreck. Trotskyism is close enough to social fascism and anti-communism to be acceptable, presumably.

Just ask if there's any other points which you'd like clarification on.

>The replies of thread >>2766805 have been so poor
It was /thread after the first post

>>2767852
It's simple: we slide such shit threads, with more informative ones.
Hence the new thread.

<<2767930 (Niet)


>No u

You would have adressed my post then, yet all you are doing is posting chinese nationalist propaganda

>>2767930
a retard screech of a negative ain't a answer, dilate.

>>2767979
>Dilate
Your poltardation is leaking again, reported

>>2767982
>i-i'm gonna hecking report you !!!!
lmao, bitch ass derailer can't handle what he does, limp wristed bitch.

>>2767984
This thread shouldn’t even exist

>>2767984
>Derailer
My reply makes perfect sense with the content and context of the OP


>>2768016
yes, YOU

In France UPML split from OCML-VP and joined ICOR. About a decade later and UPML writing makes PCML-VP looks like infantiles.
French historically irrelevant "Mao-spontex" fakery is buried with this split. ML-MZT is in motion in France from now on too. Good.

>>2767998
Only if you are a retard, which you are.
now go do tricks on a dildo.

This is a good post thank you

>>2769211
Stop projecting

>>2767836
Great thread I applaud your efforts

Revisionist slop, reactionaries larping as Marxists

>>2769417
As opposed to who? Every Hoxhaist organization in Africa is responsible for ethnic cleansing and CIA sponsored disfunction

>>2769436
Well the next Revolutionary among us of course… Our mods favorite - Leftsoc flagfag: >>2769382

Yooo mods woke up! >>2769471
leftypol.org has in fact not been seized by the US State Dept. as of 2026-04-06!

>>2767836
>President García commits suicide by gunshot
Alan Garcia commited suicide in 2019

File: 1776728232252.pdf (702.64 KB, 180x255, 2767836.pdf)

>>2767836
thank you for making a superior thread to the other thread and actually putting effort into it. I converted this thread to a PDF and will be putting it in the /edu/ PDF drop thread

>>2767836
>Having the entire hierarchy of the party written down and organized on a personal computer in the urban area he hides in, Gonzalo is a single point of failure.
oof

File: 1776751210364.png (2.34 MB, 1000x1338, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2767836
>not for largely urbanized or imperialist countries, where the "October road" tactic should be used. This is important to keep in mind later on in the post.
>>2767841
> ICOR parties operating in imperialist countries correctly focus on proletariat no faith in national bourgeoisie, and united front from below, i.e. tactics of 'October Road'.
I want to know more about "October Road" tactics because when I look this stuff up all I get is a stupid TV show from 2007

>>2767836
>>2767841
Amazing effortpost. Cannot recommend enough. People need to actually READ this. I see so many people on this board using "Maoism" to interchangeably mean ML-MZT, MLM, and M3W. Thank you, comrade.
>>2767848
ugh, did you even read it?

>>2788250
how does one turn threads into PDFs

>>2789408
there's sites that convert URLs into PDFs but idk which ones to trust

lol is it 2011

File: 1777313699531.png (114.39 KB, 850x400, ClipboardImage.png)

What really frustrates me about so called "anti"-campists (or I like to call 3rd-campists) are boiling down neo-3rd worldism (whatever you wanna call it) into the only ML ideology.

Maoanon is one of the few people here that actually has a grasp on dialectical materialism in a insurrectionary sense, most of you are revisionist NERDS who cry larp any time you see real leftists.

>>2795007

Again thank you mao anon, and juche posters for teaching me basically more than anyone here.

>>2788412
>I want to know more about "October Road" tactics because when I look this stuff up all I get is a stupid TV show from 2007
wish someone knowledgeable would answer this

File: 1777371988890.png (261.8 KB, 850x651, 2.png)

>>2788412
>>2795145
>I want to know more about "October Road" tactics

Here: https://www.bannedthought.net/MLM-Theory/index.htm
ctrl+f:
October Road
I found through this search term in duckduckgo:
site:bannedthought.net "october road"

It appears to be the terminology used within contemporary classical MLM milieu for specifically the Bolshevik revolutionary tactic; purposed for urbanized, working class dominant environments, as opposed to Protracted People's War (PPW). Since "October Road" terminology seems rather new (in historical Marxist context I think the tactic is often referred to as "insurrection" / "city-insurrection") "October road" instead must have appeared in MLM polemics against the recent Gonzaloists attempting to faux-theorize the PPW as "universally applicable" (even in imperialist countries). Classical MLM / ML-MZT people then counter by claiming that PPW is appropriate and applicable in semi-feudal / semi-colonial, largely agrarian countries, while the "October Road" tactic is appropriate and applicable in countries more integrated in capitalism and especially imperialist countries.

File: 1777372834779.gif (175.42 KB, 220x220, geeb-bruh.gif)

>>2767836
>as well as the now great power chauvinist USSR having capitulated the weapon of Lenin and transforming into a social-imperialist obstacle

also read the relevant paragraphs in this text for "October Road" meaning
>"Gonzaloism: A 'Left' Revisionist Deviation", by Thomas Berg, 3rd Ed., September 2022
https://www.bannedthought.net/Sweden/MF/2022/Gonzaloism-ALeftRevisionistDeviation-Berg-3rdEd-2022-OCR.pdf
I would normally copy-paste the relevant pages into the post but it's PDF so text formatting conversion was cumbersome. But it's ~30 pages, just ctrl+f again.



You learn more by reading about the practical effects of these movements rather than their slogans

>>2767836
I don't know the exact genealogy of Third Worldism but J. Sakai's Settlers was literally published in 1983 and while I don't know if Sakai himself identified as a Third Worldist it is literally a TWist text that remains central to American TWist ideology.

>>2795475 (me)
What I meant to say is if Settlers was published in 1983 and J. Sakai didn't spring up from nowhere then saying Third Worldism is a "90s art project" seems historically inaccurate.

>>2795484
>J. Sakai didn't spring up from nowhere
hmmmmmm

File: 1777409991887.jpg (7.37 KB, 360x270, jimjones.jpg)

>>2795484

lol people here notoriously call anything that isn't white American revisionism, white collar ngo leftism "art projects" "cults" "adventurist" "LARPers" "lifestylism". It's called envy.

>>2795484
>What I meant to say is if Settlers was published in 1983 and J. Sakai didn't spring up from nowhere then saying Third Worldism is a "90s art project" seems historically inaccurate.
Sakai would most accurately probably be put as a partial result of the eclectic direction developed by post- Black Panther Party developments, after all intercommunalism already became a thing by the 70s.
American MZT/Maoist milieu is very insular and peculiar though, from an international perspective, so it's not really that odd that it often gets overlooked when people write about "Maoism" from an international basis (outlining things it has in common across terrains). For example from a personal perspective, as a non-american, I know I'm under-read on the Black Panthers post-repression in US history (the dense glowopping of it all doesn't make it easier either) and I've been reading about ML/Maoist stuff for multiple years at this point. It's way easier to get a picture of MLM from doing the reading on Philippines, India, etc.
But anyway that's why I think the OP also overlooks that national particularity that would probably have fleshed out the section on american MZT/MLM leading to contextual clarification on an environment. Black Panther Party, Black Liberation Army, 'intercommunalism' turn, Sakaiism, RCPUSA, ThirdWorldism, Avakianist deviationism. There's a lot of stuff there for sure. But very different from what was taking shape internationally as the international Maoist movement. Sakai and ThirdWorldism rejects the proletariat. Intercommunalism rejects hismat. RCPUSA/Avakianism rejects the ML and MZT on opposing Great Man worship.

>>2796372
Well yes, it's ironic that TWism seemingly never took root outside America itself. One could say with a tinfoil hat on that it is an ideology that conveniently absolves Americans of doing anything. This functional passivation is interestingly a characteristic it shares with the various strains of "critical theory" in the West. How unfortunate it is that it is precisely Americans doing something that would shake up the world the most. No, we must leave the responsibility of leading the world revolution to malnourished Somali pirates with AK-47s. Suggesting otherwise is fascism.

File: 1777580243027.png (72.77 KB, 251x201, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2794590
what bothers me in addition to them conflating ml and third worldism is that what they think is third worldism is not and what they think is anti-campism also is not and what they think is left communism also is not. its very obviously clueless liberal tourists not serious or orthodox or even trot but just illiterate retards

File: 1779996178505.png (151.29 KB, 512x512, lenin-annoyed.png)

To what extent are classical MLMs critical of Stalin?
I recently found out for example that Stalin belittled the notion of even attempting to give a damn about Marx and Engels POV in regards to socialism / lower phase communism (outlined in The Critique of the Gotha Programme). Stalin went on to publish Economic Problems in the USSR, and Mao responded with a criticism. Considering ML-MZT wasn't critical enough of aspects of soviet-type governance to stave off counterrevolution, do any of the classical MLM writers touch on the issue of Stalin's "socialist commodity production"? Maybe doubling and citing the limited agricultural work-points system (a limited post-money experiment during the GPCR)?

Here is the Stalin text that recently pissed me off, "Answer" is Stalin:
https://revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv4n2/5convers.htm
>Five Conversations with Soviet Economists, 1941-1952, J.V. Stalin
>[…]
>On Planning
Regarding the plan for the economy a lot of terrible words have been piled up. What all has not been written. 'Directly social character of labour in the socialist society. Overcoming the law of value and elimination of anarchy in production. Planned conducting of the economy as a means of bringing the production relations of socialism in conformity with the nature of the productive forces'. Some kind of a flawless planned economy is painted. Whereas one can say simply: – under capitalism it is not possible to carry on production on the scale of the whole of the society, there you have competition, there you have private property, which separates. Whereas in our system the enterprises are united on the basis of socialist property. Planned economy is not something we want, it is an inevitability, otherwise everything would collapse. We have destroyed such bourgeois barometers as the markets and the stock exchanges, with the help of which the bourgeoisie corrects the disproportions. We have taken everything up on ourselves. Planned economy in our system is as much inevitable as is the consumption of bread. And it is so not because we are all 'good boys', not because we are capable of doing everything, and they cannot, but because in our system the enterprises are integrated. In their system integration is possible only within trusts and cartels, i.e. within narrow limits, but they are incapable of organising an All peoples' economy. (It is in place here to remind ourselves of Lenin's critique of Kautsky's theory of super capitalism). The capitalist cannot run industry and agriculture and transport according to a plan. Under capitalism the town must devour the countryside. Private property there is an obstacle. So say simply: there is integration in our system, and in their system there is division. Here (page 369) it is written: 'planned functioning of the economy as a means of bringing the production relations of socialism in conformity with the character of the productive forces'. It is all rubbish, schoolboys' chatter. (Marx and Engels spoke long ago, and they had to talk about contradictions). But why in hell are you treating us to such generalisations? Say simply: in their system there is division in the economy, the form of property brings divisions; in our system there is integration. You are at the helm, and the power is yours. Speak simply.

We must properly define the objectives of the planning centre. Not only must it establish the proportions. Proportions are not of central importance, they are essential, but still secondary.

What are the main objectives of planning?

The first objective consists in planning in a way that ensures the independence of the socialist economy from capitalist encirclement. This is obligatory, and is most important. It is a form of the struggles against world capitalism. We must ensure that we have metal and machines in our hands so as not to become an appendage to the capitalist system. This is the basis of planning. This is central. GOELRO and subsequent plans were drawn up on this basis.

How to organise planning? In their system capital gets spontaneously distributed over the branches of the economy depending upon the profits. If we were to develop various sectors according to their profitability we would have a developed flour-grinding sector, toy production (they are expensive and give high profits), textiles, but we would not have had any heavy industry. It demands large investments and is loss-making in the beginning. Abandoning the development of heavy industry is the same as that which the Rykovites had proposed. We have turned the laws of development of the capitalist economy upside down, have put them on their head, or more precisely on their feet. We have begun with the development of heavy industry and machine building. Without planning of the economy nothing would work out.

How do things happen in their system? Some states rob others, loot the colonies, and extract forced loans. It is otherwise with us. The basic thing about planning is that we have not become an appendage to the world capitalist system.

The second objective of planning consists in strengthening the absolute hegemony of the socialist economic system and closing all the sources and loopholes from which capitalism arises. Rykov and Trotsky had once proposed to close down advanced and leading enterprises (The Putilov Factory and others) as unprofitable. Going by this would have meant 'closing down' socialism. Investments would have then gone into flour-grinding and toy production because they yield profit. We could not have followed this path.

The third objective of planning is to avoid disproportions. But as the economy is huge, ruptures can always take place. Therefore, we need to have large reserves. Not only of funds, but also of labour power.

We should provide something new to the reader, and not endlessly keep repeating about the correlation between the relations of production and the productive forces. It does not produce any results. There is no need to go overboard in praising our own system and ascribe to it those achievements which are not there. Value exists and differential rent exists, but they are used differently. I was thinking about the category of Profit – should we leave it out or to keep it?

Remark: Maybe it is better to use the word 'income'?

Molotov: Income is of different kinds.

Remark (N.A. Voznesensky–ed.): May be socialist accumulation?

Answer: As long as profit has not been extracted it is not accumulation. Profit is a result of production.

Question: Should we have in the textbook that there is surplus product in the socialist society? There were differences of opinion on this matter in the Commission.

Molotov: We have to educate the workers so that they know that they work for the whole of the society and not only for their families.

Answer: Without surplus product you cannot build the new system. It is necessary that the workers understand that under capitalism they are interested in what it is that they are getting. But under socialism they take care of their own society and this is what educates the worker. Income remains but it acquires another character. The surplus product is there, but it does not go to the exploiter, but towards increasing the welfare of the people, strengthening defence etc. The surplus product gets transformed.

In our country distribution takes place according to labour. We have qualified and unqualified labour. How should we define an engineer's work? It is multiplied simple labour. With us incomes are distributed according to labour. It cannot be that this distribution happens independently of the law of value. We think that the entire economy is run according to the plan, but it does not always happen this way. There is a lot of spontaneity with us also. We knowingly, and not spontaneously, make calculations according to the law of value. In their system the law of value operates spontaneously, bringing in its wake destruction, and demands huge sacrifices. In our system the character of the law of value undergoes a change, it acquires a new content, a new form. We knowingly, and not spontaneously, set prices. Engels speaks of leaps. It is a risky formula, but it can be accepted, if we correctly understand the leap from the realm of necessity into the realm of freedom. We must understand freedom of will as necessity recognised, where the leap means a transition from spontaneous inevitability to the recognition of necessity. In their system the law of value operates spontaneously and it leads to large-scale destruction. But we should conduct things in such a way that there are fewer sacrifices. The necessity resulting from the operation of the law of value must be used by us consciously.

Question: In the Commission there were misunderstandings and discussions regarding whether there are commodities in the Soviet economy. The author, against the opinion of the majority in the Commission, speaks not about commodities but about products.

Answer: Once we have a monetarised economy, we also have commodities. All the categories remain, but have acquired a new character. Money, in their system, serves as a tool for exploitation, but in our system it has a different content.

Question: Until now the law of value was interpreted as a law operating in a spontaneous market which determines the spontaneous distribution of labour power.

Answer: This is not correct. One should not narrow down the scope of the formulation of the question. Trotsky repeatedly limited money to its being an instrument for calculation. He insisted on this both before and after the transition to NEP. This is wrong. Our answer to him was: when a worker buys something, is he calculating with the help of money, or is he doing something else? Lenin repeatedly would point out in the Politbureau that such a formulation of the question is wrong, that one should not limit the role of money to it being an instrument of calculation.

Remark: Surplus product in a socialist society – the term is embarrassing.

Answer: On the contrary, we have to educate the worker that the surplus product is needed by us, there is more responsibility. The worker must understand that he produces not only for himself and his family, but also for creating reserves and strengthening defence etc.

Remark: In the Critique of the Gotha Programme Marx did not write about surplus product.

Answer: If you want to seek answers for everything in Marx you will get nowhere. You have in front of you a laboratory such as the USSR which has existed now for more than 20 years but you think that Marx ought to be knowing more than you about socialism. Do you not understand that in the Critique of the Gotha Programme Marx was not in a position to foresee! It is necessary to use one's head and not string citations together. New facts are there, there is a new combination of forces – and if you don't mind – one has to use one's brains.


——————

<Stalin: Quoting Marx?? Fucking ridiculous LMAO! GTFO!! [t. has made a political career of quote-mining Marx, Engels, Lenin at gunpoint like scripture until it becomes time to put socialist planned economy into action post NEP]

>>2825634
>I recently found out for example that Stalin belittled the notion of even attempting to give a damn about Marx and Engels POV
I haven't read much by Stalin myself, but given what you quote this seems to be hyperbole. He was just against quote-mongering and pointed out how long ago Marx had written his stuff. Anyway, the consensus position of people familiar with Marx (no matter their own political preferences) is that Marx did not have to say much about how to do socialism.

The nameless guy who is (acts?) offended by the term "surplus" is ridiculous. The "surplus" in this context is the same as the "common funds" in Critique of the Gotha Programme.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

>>2825634 (me)
I found a very useful text that elucidates some things in regards my question.
>Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR with Mao Zedong’s Commentaries
https://foreignlanguages.press/product/economic-problems-of-socialism-in-the-ussr-with-mao-zedongs-commentaries-joseph-stalin/
https://foreignlanguages.press/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/C33-Economic-Problems-in-the-USSR-1st-Printing.pdf

<Stalin:

>1. Character of Economic Laws Under Socialism
>Some comrades deny the objective character of laws of science, and of laws of political economy particularly, under socialism. They deny that the laws of political economy reflect law-governed processes which operate independently of the will of man. They believe that in view of the specific role assigned to the Soviet state by history, the Soviet state and its leaders can abolish existing laws of political economy and can “form,” “create,” new laws. These comrades are profoundly mistaken. It is evident that they con- fuse laws of science, which reflect objective processes in nature or society, processes which take place independently of the will of man, with the laws which are issued by governments, which are made by the will of man, and which have only juridical validity. But they must not be confused.
>Marxism regards laws of science—whether they be laws of natural science or laws of political economy—as the reflection of objective processes which take place independently of the will of man. Man may dis- cover these laws, get to know them, study them, reckon with them in his activities and utilize them in the interests of society, but he cannot change or abolish them. Still less can he form or create new laws of science.
<Mao's comment:
>“This principle is basically correct, but two things are wrong: first, the conscious activity of the Party and the masses is not sufficiently brought out; second, it is not comprehensive enough in that it fails to explain that what makes government decrees correct is not only that they emerge from the will of the working class but also the fact that they faithfully reflect the imperatives of objective economic laws.”*—Mao Zedong, “Critique of Stalin’s Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR,” in Selected Works of Mao Zedong, Vol. VIII, Foreign Languages Press, Paris, 2020, p. 288.
>* “Stalin’s book from first to last says nothing about the superstructure. It is not concerned with people; it considers things, not people. Does the kind of supply system for consumer goods help spur economic development or not? He should have touched on this at the least. Is it better to have commodity production or is it better not to? Everyone has to study this. Stalin’s point of view in his last letter [Reply to comrades A. V. Sanina and V. G. Ven- sher] is almost altogether wrong. The basic error is mistrust of the peasants. Parts of the first, second and third chapters are correct; other parts could have been clearer. For example, the discussion on planned economy is not complete. The rate of development of the Soviet economy is not high enough, although it is faster than the capitalists’ rate. Relations between agriculture and industry, as well as between light and heavy industry, are not clearly explained. It looks as if they have had serious losses. The relationship between long and short-term interests has not seen any spectacular developments. They walk on one leg, we walk on two. They believe that technology decides everything, that cadres decide everything, speaking only of ‘expert,’ never of ‘red,’ only of the cadres, never of the masses. This is walking on one leg. As for as heavy industry goes, they have failed to find the primary contradiction, calling steel the foundation, machinery the heart and innards, coal the food… For us steel is the mainstay, the primary contradiction in industry, while food grains are the mainstay in agriculture. Other things develop proportionally. In the first chapter he discusses grasping the laws, but without proposing a method. On commodity production and the law of value he has a number of views that we approve of ourselves, but there are problems as well. Limiting commodity production to the means of subsistence is really rather doubtful. Mistrust of the peasants is the basic viewpoint of the third letter. Essentially, Stalin did not discover a way to make the transition from collective to public ownership. Commodity production and exchange are forms we have kept, while in connection with the law of value we must speak of planning and at the same time politics-in-command. They speak only of the production relations, not of the superstructure nor politics, nor the role of the people. Communism cannot be reached unless there is a communist movement.”—Critique, p. 287.

>>2827393
You completely miss the forest for the trees. That is only true from a narrow and partial aspect of what's at play here. It's forgetting Stalin's simultaneous perspective that class struggle were to be "over" after the liquidation of the kulaks and some cloistered intraparty purges, isolated from the wider populace. These political mistakes and more then opens the country up for being completely unprepared for counterrevolution with stable foothold in the collective farms, markets/traders, the bureaucracy, religious institutions, etc. The entire point is for these collective farms to be temporary and then made state-run with time as the state matured and became capable. Marxism-Leninism and scientific socialism does not intend to safeguard capitalist reproductive safe havens within proletarian states.

I have not finished reading the book in whole yet. The above quotes were from the opening. After I have read Mao's responses to Stalin's chapters on the Law of Value and Commodity Production in whole it will have elucidated differences already in the 50s, before China's closing of New Democracy and actual launch of the socialist revolutionary transformation in 1968 onward (until the counterrevolution). The most relevant to read there seems to be Chunqiao's On Exercising All-Round Dictatorship Over the Bourgeoisie (1975), and the CPC textbook on political economy from somewhere around here (early to mid 70s). I will share insights as it relates to ML-MZT nuance and distinction on socialist commodity production in this thread again when I get there.

>>2767836
>Alberto Fujimori, a Japanese capitalist
Fujimori was born and raised in Peru, and grew up in the Peruvian Catholic Church. He's a product of Peruvian capitalism.

theyre all trash ideas anarchism, maoism, jucheism are all just third world simping cults. theyve all synthesized into one idea or movement with one goal destroy the west. just stick to the dsa

>>2767848
Death to the United States*
From the ashes shall emerge a truly pan-American state.

>>2828287
>You completely miss the forest for the trees. That is only true from a narrow and partial aspect of what's at play here. It's forgetting Stalin's simultaneous perspective that class struggle were to be "over" after the liquidation of the kulaks and some cloistered intraparty purges, isolated from the wider populace. These political mistakes blahblahblah The entire point is for these collective farms to be temporary and then made state-run with time as the state matured and became capable.
That is exactly Stalin's position? The farms aren't yet properly integrated into the plan. There is still buying and selling between the farms and the state and so labor values continue to regulate things behind peoples' backs to some extent.


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