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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Within the West the left has a common circular conversation: We need to organize, we need a movement independent of liberal political parties, we need independent working class power. The common response: there's no sufficient labor movement, people are too atomized, they no longer live and work in proximity in ways that makes them easily reachable, existing platforms prevent dissemination of our message, etc.

What if the people need to come together to be reached, and what if they get what they need for their liberation, and what they are missing in their lives under capitalism such as community aid and belonging, in a church?

Consider the conditions under which Christianity arose. The older religions including Greco-Roman pantheon worship had declined. They had by no means lost their popularity completely but the awe of the primal forces of nature and the fatalistic philosophical personification and deification of aspects of human behavior no longer spoke as effectively to the increasingly urban masses where the bronze age conditions that inspired the religion in the first place were increasingly remote and abstract. Major rituals and festival were increasingly done by rote or performatively by elites for their political careers, or for the celebrations more than the meaning beneath them. Christianity filled that void, the thought of taking on the sins and failures and brutality of humanity from the top down and dying to absolve the human soul, the thought of an all encompassing and compassionate architecture to the universe and their place in it gave people more awe than witnessing a lightning storm or an earthquake.

We all know how things went since, there's more to criticize about Christianity's history than we have time to go over. But now we find ourselves once again in similar conditions for something new. Religious membership is declining in the west, the remaining membership are either increasingly secularized and bourgeois or increasingly hyper-reactionary or lumpen. These institutions are not able to speak to the problems of the day or any solution for them on a theological or material basis. If the old church was the theological logic of feudalism to come in the shadow of rome, if protestantism was the theological logic of capitalism to come in the shadow of feudalism, then something new whether christian or something distinct can be the theological logic of what is to come after capitalism and more people feel that need every day even if they don't understand it.

I don't expect we will form a new religion here of course, but we can recognize the void that exists in people's lives currently, the need to fill that void that all humans have, and anticipate that it will be filled by something eventually. There have been many attempts, experiments, to forge an alternative to the status quo on religious grounds in the form of various cults, movements and intentional communities through the ages. We can learn from them when framing the theological vision and logic of what comes next. Many of us are not religious at all to say the least, and producing a new religious paradigm is likely not something that is done intentionally from a place of insincerity. Perhaps we may yet inspire the vision of future figures and movements as they form organically, and find in them the allies we need. It may be that an existing institution will transform into the vessel of the new message that will de-atomize and educate the scattered masses in ways conventional organizing struggles to do, to make them see beyond their PMC jobs and treats or across culture war bullshit. I don't want to exaggerate the merits of the Catholic Church or Pope Leo but as the conflict between him and the Trump administration increases, as Latin America is menaced and the Vatican is told by the Pentagon to "pick a side", there is a degree of potential to be found there even if it's an emerging leftward fringe of where he may ultimately allow the Church to be led.
105 posts and 26 image replies omitted.

>>2778240
>in terms of recreation alcohol is far superior to opiates
they're both terrible for you

>>2778796
>Opium use was pretty normal when Marx was alive
fentanyl use is "pretty normal" right now. exploitation of workers is "pretty normal" right now. religion is "pretty normal" right now. you're making this sneaky argument where you go "oh marx was ok with religion, he was just calling it the opium of the masses because it's just like this chill thing everyone does." marx's entire thing was criticizing and deconstructing things considered "normal." Here's the full quote:


>Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.


>The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.


Emphasis mine. Everyone ignores that second part in bold.

>>2779826
then you agree they're both terrible for you

>>2779499
>To play devils advocate, has strident materialism been a benefit to the socialist movement historically?
Yes. understanding that reality is real and not an illusion created by the demiurge or a hallucination you live inside or the dream of brahma or the thoughts of God and that when you get hit by a bus you are in fact getting hurt, and that your consciousness lives inside a thing called a brain that can sustain permanent damage is pretty much the starting point for doing empirical science, let alone scientific socialism. Reality is not a waiting room for heaven and hell. You should not do as the book of Ephesians instructs and "serve your earthly master with fear and trembling" with the hopes it will get you into heaven after you die. You have to combat your own oppression while you are still alive, not sit there and take it up the ass because reality is just secretly a test god is putting you through to see how much of a bootlicker you are so he can let you in the bootlicker club when you die while "rebels" go to burn forever with the king of rebels, satan.

File: 1776040433959.png (1.75 MB, 1252x1252, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2779838

>>2779850
Russia went form a semi-feudal backwater led by an emperor and Orthodox Christian clergy to being ahead of the USA in the space race in 40 years flat. Why? Because they abandoned religious autocratic metaphysical idealism and embraced secular socialist dialectical materialism.

>>2779850
What led to the current status quo is a revisionist idealist capitalist roader clique taking over the USSR. They abandoned materialism.

>>2779858
>And now they’re a fentanyl ridden shithole gas station that can’t even conquer Ukraine or prop up Assad
because they abandoned materialism.

>>2779865
back up your shitty hypothesis that "materialism doesn't work" and explain why idealism is superior now.

>>2779863
they did a damn good job considering they were the first successful socialist seizure of state power in human history, and they had to survive a civil war, an invasion by 14 nations, a genocidal campaign by the nazis, an arms race with the USA, etc. history moves slow. success comes from failing, learning from mistakes, and trying again, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and using the soviet relapse into idealist metaphysics as an excuse to condemn materialism.

>>2779865
you have it exactly backwards materialism worked fine. even the bourgeoisie have to some extent embraced materialism for their own class interests, though they still use idealism to control the workers.

>>2779883
>>2779884
>>2779887
are you the anon with the sprained ankle and the petty bourgeois family who is taking it out on everyone

>>2779904
suddenly he is silent. i take that as a yes.

this thread fell apart because the people pushing idealism have no arguments, just vibes

>>2780102
people should reply to me :3

>>2779621

File: 1776062068075.png (2.36 MB, 1280x986, ClipboardImage.png)

>The New Testament: Ephesians 6:5
> Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart

>Spartacus:

>I'm gonna lead 100,000 slaves against the Roman empire

>Liberation theologists:

>clearly Jesus is the most revolutionary figure from the iron age

>>2780137
The epistles are not written by Christ, but the first anti-christ, Paul.

>>2780162
hello hitler!

>>2780163
Where did Jesus say that masters are superior to slaves? He told the rich that they will not go to heaven and to give away their wealth to the poor to be saved from the vanity of power. Paul told women to shut up in church; he said gays will not go to heaven, etc. That is not a Christ-like message.

File: 1776066577918.png (554.88 KB, 817x689, hitlter islam.png)

>>2780163
Hitler hated Christianity wanted wanted Islam instead, thobeit

>>2780137
Its almost like marx worked out that religion is shaped by material conditions. Jesus was a reaction to slavery, he freed some people and we like him but he didn't end slavery and religion kept going as a dialetic used by the upper class for social control it doesn't make Jesus any less significant as a historical anti slavery figure

>>2780174
hitler was a member of the christian religion called "positive christianity" which taught that paul was a jewish falsifier of the aryan jesus, he didn't really care about islam either way, but he hated pacifist religions (or at least religions that condoned non violence more) like catholicism, quakerism, jehovah's witnesses, etc

>>2780164
>Paul told women to shut up in church
he didn't though, that was written long after he lived by someone posing as paul, only the first 7 epistles or so are authentically written by paul

>>2780184
Internally he might not have cared about Islam so much but massive efforts where made by the nazi leadership to adopt hitters fascism for the middle east in order to get support for the Northern African front

>>2780191
i mean yeah it was purely a form of opportunism, i could have brought up the fact that ᴉuᴉlossnW had declared himself "protector of islam" in a similar effort as well

>>2780188
First Corinthians is a Pauline epistle:
>Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
<1 Cor 14:34-5

>>2780251
yes but it's agreed by the majority of scholars that this is an interpolation since it doesn't follow what comes before or after

>>2777989
>Sorel’s concept of the revolutionary myth.
looks it up
<In Reflections on Violence, Georges Sorel argues that revolutions are driven less by rational analysis than by deeply irrational, emotionally charged myths that bypass reason to inspire unity, justify violence, and propel collective action.
this seems kinda idealist….
looks into Sorel's politics
<Georges Sorel moved from Marxist sympathies through revolutionary syndicalism into a marked rightward, proto-fascist drift, as his rejection of rational politics and embrace of myth, violence, and anti-democratic instincts led him toward nationalist currents.
Oh…

>>2780258
well the church disagrees and they're keeping it in

really tells you how they feel

>>2780174
>Islam needs a Germanic leader
lol the ego on this saltine

>>2780162
>The epistles are not written by Christ, but the first anti-christ, Paul.
I am the anon you are responding to… my only reply is that it's really convenient that Christians have this entire book of scripture that they tell you to read and obey but then you find out that it basically has every single possible opinion within it and Christians get to selectively reject or accept verses based on their individual ideology and interpretation. It loses its authoritative character entirely and becomes purely a tool for evangelizing based on the needs of the believer and the target. How did your religion get taken over by an "anti christ" so early on and why are his thoughts repeated ad nauseum?

It seems to me that the central figure of Christianity, the anointed one, Yeshua, left no writings, and rather spoke to gathered masses of people, and only long after he died were the gospels finally put to text, and even then, it was so disputed, we have four different versions just of the gospels alone. And then the class interests of the literate aristocrats and church fathers infected the interpretations of the new testament so that the poor and starving masses who may have been the original focus of the religion became de-prioritized in favor of the church-as-institution …

>>2780543
Wait till you find out about hadith basically invalidating the entirety of the Quran

>>2780564
>wuddabout other religions also being inconsistent and self contradictory
wait until you find out i don't like religion in general

>>2780543
>How did your religion get taken over by an "anti christ" so early on and why are his thoughts repeated ad nauseum?
Its quite clear to see in the example of the Pharisees. There are those who profess the law vainly and proudly, and those who are humbled by service to righteousness. The thief on the cross was not baptised, prayed over, part of a specific sect, etc. yet he still asked Christ for forgiveness and it was granted to him. Christ did not come for the righteous, but sinners. A sinner thus may be more glad than a saint - and if you want evidence, look at all of the "heretics" and martyrs the roman church has persecuted.
>church as institution
As Jesus says:
>For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them
<Matt 18:20
Church has no ceremony, but is simply the fellowship of believers. The Catholics are of course the Great Beast with the anti-Christ at its head. History speaks well enough for their crimes. But lets think, if Christ said not to murder, and a church commits murder, is it of Christ?

>>2780164
>X says this awful stuff
>>2780188
<Noooo he didn't say that, that was someone else!
>>2780251
>Yes he did, heres the fucking source
>>2780258
<Yeah but but but but but but but its agreed by the majority that its not that way cause of interpolation interpretation

Every religger discussion is like this, fucking pharisee uyghurs nitpicking worthless backwards shit for "feels"

"Atheism" is a religion no matter how much it tries to reject

>>2780585
i'm not even religious, it's just a fact that this wasn't the intention and that it was falsified after the fact to support these beliefs they held
>>2780536
i mean yeah, that's sort of the point

>>2778227
>Sometimes the proles need some opium

>>2780621
>drinking water is the same as being thirsty
>eating food is the same as starving to death
>constipation is the same as pooping
>up is down
>left is right
>forward is back
>slavery is freedom
wow your hegelianism is so powerful

>>2780621
Is agnosticism also religion

File: 1776149871154.png (1.81 MB, 1680x1050, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2780534
damn that's pretty fucked up
>>2777989
explain yourself

>>2775185
the western left is not "missing" some ideological secret sauce. it is missing the part where you stop arguing online and get shit done

note: am a hypocrite and a coward

>>2780585
>>2780543

As that dreadful cowardly “cultural Christian” Anglo-shitlib Richard Dawkins once said, the fact that the Bible was authored by different people across different periods means that in one way or another there’s something in it for everyone if they look for it. Hence why you’ve got Christian capitalists, liberation theologians, pro-trans Christians, etc…

I do think the problem with these kind of discussions is that:

  1. Few are able to articulate the need for Christianity to remain relevant in the western left (the one I assume most of us are in) as Christianity declines in Europe and North America to the point that much of the clergy has to import its staff from other continents due to the shortage of local people willing to be priests.

  2. Most discussions only revolve around their conception of what Christianity is, as opposed to how it historically existed, as well as its broader theology. For example, why did no atheist here ever question the historicity of Jesus, the gospels or the authorship of the Bible, despite ample room to do so?

And I do think that’s the big issue overall: In actual leftist spaces, few are willing to take on Christian theology. As much as I hate New atheists, I gotta give them credit for actually engaging with religion as opposed to the previous liberal “They just didn’t read their holy book properly” when it comes to religious bigots. Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe the reason they are bigoted is actually because they read their holy books properly?

That goes for both idpol-type stuff and economic policy. Like, the Bible never calls for property abolition ever, not even in the passages liberation theologians use as talking points (e.g., debt jubilee). Likewise, who’s to say that Paul was actually genuine in Corinthians? The Bible is by no means feminist given that you have passages like 1 Timothy 2,11-15 & Deuteronomy 22:28-29 & 1 Peter 3:1. Of course, there are more egalitarian verses like Galatians 3:27-28 but Jesus did say that he came to fulfill already-existing laws rather than abolish them or overthrow prophets (Matthew 5:17).

Point being: You can selectively say some passages aren’t applicable to the 21st century, some were misinterpreted, some are immoral, etc… But the fact remains that all of them require some sort of morally relativistic interpretation (that goes for Christian reactionaries) that necessarily invalidate the notion of the Bible being God’s eternal word.

At that point, the argument shifts from being theological to sociological (i.e., “Is the Bible communist?” Vs “Can Christianity advance communism?”). But unless even the elite believe in it, than any implementation of “cultural Christian” socialism naturally collapses into nihilism because such a conception of Christianity is itself liberal and, as Aleksandr Dugin stated, liberalism naturally leads to nihilism, as this individualising and atomisation turns Christianity into a LARP no different than what e-crusader LARPers currently do.

So, to those sympathetic to Christianity and think it’s possible to integrate it with communism, I ask:

  1. Try to engage with critiques of Christianity and religion as done by Alex O’Connor, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hitchens, Robert M Price, Adam Green, and Thunderf00t.

  2. Is there any way for Christian communism to succeed without falling into the idealistic trap or turning into a LARP very similar to the current crop of reactionary e-crusade LARPers?

>>2781171
>why did no atheist here ever question the historicity of Jesus
i did, but i saw no one else do it either

>>2780180
>Jesus was a reaction to slavery, he freed some people
that never happens in the new testament even once. what the fuck are you talking about. jesus has nothing to do with slavery. you are deeply confused. historical jesus, assuming he even existed, was part of a theological struggle in roman occupied judea between pharisees, essenes, zealots, sadducees, and early christians i.e. the movement around jesus. early christianity was not a movement against slavery, and it wasn't even overtly against roman occupation. it was a theological/philosophical movement which advocated paying taxes to rome i.e. "rendering unto caesar what is caesar's" and pacfiism i.e. "turn the other cheek" and "forgive your transgressors". the most radical and violent thing jesus does it not against slavery or roman occupation, but against something he perceives as blasphemous: Money lenders in the temple. where did you get the idea that jesus frees slaves?

>>2781171
> why did no atheist here ever question the historicity of Jesus, the gospels or the authorship of the Bible, despite ample room to do so?

>And I do think that’s the big issue overall: In actual leftist spaces, few are willing to take on Christian theology.


christian theology and the historicity of jesus are two different questions. there probably is a historical figure who became the basis for early christianity. whether he even closely resembles the jesus of the four gospels (written between 70 and 150 CE) is a different question entirely. The fringe hypothesis of Caesar's Messiah says that the gospels were fabricated by Titus and Josephus to create a pacifistic form of Judaism that would submit to Rome. While that is possible the evidence is circumstantial, and even if it were true, it is not incompatible with a historical Jesus who they based their fabricated religion around. Imagine if a few hundred years from now a religion sprung up around some half-remembered political martyr from the 20th century. The question of a historical Jesus isn't a question of whether the character Jesus existed but whether that character was based on a forgotten real person or not.

>>2781171
>That goes for both idpol-type stuff and economic policy. Like, the Bible never calls for property abolition ever, not even in the passages liberation theologians use as talking points
i'm with you on most of this post but I gotta say Acts 4:32 comes pretty close
<All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

>>2781184
>>2781184

The glaring issue is that this does go against the commandment on not coveting for other’s goods as well as the prohibition of theft that rests on the notion of private property.

Honestly, this cuts into what I think is the crux of the issue: Most socialist and capitalist Christians often overlook the fact that Christianity, at the end of the day, is a pre-modern religion that began as a bunch of multiple and often conflicting sects before being consolidated (albeit incomplete) into the Catholic Church, and as such the Bible doesn’t have an economic theory that neatly fits into either capitalism or communism/socialism since both capitalist and socialist economic theories arose as products of modernity, although to be fair modernity in itself is heavily influenced by Christianity via either acceptance or rejection of it.

Overall, while I do think Christianity is closer to socialism than the free-market dogmatism that characterises right-libertarian nutjobs, Christianity doesn’t exactly affirm socialism either.

Anyway, please do read the following article for I think it provides good counter-rebuttals to many of the liberation theology arguments as it concerns economics, and does provide some interesting takes for all sides of this thread’s debate: https://billmuehlenberg.com/2016/05/30/bible-private-property/

>>2780621
not really. most atheism is entirely passive. you wouldn't say that sitting on the couch is a sport.
you're on much stronger ground when you recognize that many "non-religious" things (which both religious and non-religious people take part in) are basically ersatz religions without the supernatural nonsense: politics, fandoms, etc.

and, for religious people in the first world, the substitute is often clearly stronger than the "real deal" (e.g. non-zero numbers of US christians would spurn a returning Christ if he got on the wrong side of Donald J. Trump.)

>>2780621
>"Atheism" is a religion no matter how much it tries to reject
this accusation is better reseved for civic religions like confucianism or american civic religion, or the roman cult of the emperor. vid highly related btw
>>2781201
>you're on much stronger ground when you recognize that many "non-religious" things (which both religious and non-religious people take part in) are basically ersatz religions without the supernatural nonsense: politics, fandoms, etc.
this


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