thread was originally on /marx/ on bordiga.party but they banned my ass so now we're here
>>2799391I have to read more about it to make my final judgement but quite frankly communization just sounds like Kaczynzkite retvrn to monke shit but with Marxist jargon thrown in.
>>2799397Most Communizers aren't primitivists. You're probably talking about Jacques Camatte, who has been influential to the development of Communization Theory. In one of the prefaces of "The Eclipse and Re-Emergence of the Communist Movement" Camatte is critiqued for his advocacy of primitivism.>>2799397
>>2799395>leftcom anon even got banned from bordiga.partyLMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>The overcoming of all existing conditions can only come from a phase of intense and insurrectionist struggle during which the forms of struggle and the forms of future life will take flesh in one and the same process, the latter being nothing else than the former. This phase, and its specific activity, is what we propose to call by the name of communisation.
>Communisation does not yet exist, but the whole present phase of struggles, as mentioned above, permits us to talk about communisation in the present. In Argentina, during the struggle that followed the riots of 2001, the determining factors of the proletariat as class of this society were shaken : property, exchange, division of labour, relations between men and women… The crisis was then limited to that country, so the struggle never passed the frontiers. Yet communisation can only exist in a dynamic of endless enlargement. If it stops it will fade out, at least momentarily. However, the perspectives of capitalism since the financial crisis of 2008 – perspectives which are very gloomy for it at a global level – permit us to think that next time the collapse of money will not restrict itself to Argentina. The point is not to say that the starting point will necessarily be a crisis of money, but rather to consider that in the present state of affairs various starting points are possible and that an imminent severe monetary crisis is undoubtedly one of them.
>In our opinion, communisation will be the moment when struggle will make possible, as a means for its continuation, the immediate production of communism. By communism we mean a collective organisation that has got rid of all the mediations which, at present, serve society by linking individuals among them : money, the state, value, classes, etc. The only function of these mediations is to make exploitation possible. While they are imposed on everybody, they benefit only a few. Communism will thus be the moment when individuals will link together directly, without their inter-individual relations being superimposed by categories to which everyone owes obedience.
this sounds like more of a rhetorical framework and an anticipation of insurrection and things getting worse than a scientific theory of the presently emerging phase of the class struggle, I'm not gonna lie.
>>2799395What reason did they give you?
>>2799410too annoying even for them.
how can the bordigist imageboard be remotely close to active enough to ban anyone who belongs to a different strain of leftcomism?
that seems like insanely self-destructive levels of purity testing, or maybe it's just a glimpse into the world of infinity purges you'd get with "organic centrism"
>>2799414isn't the entire point of leftcommunism is to find the one true canonical communist line to be followed in absolute like a bible verse, then how shit like this happens ?.
why isn't alice in monsterland in the OP
>>2799424actually braindead moderation.
>>2799424The overly smug, irony-poisoned and circlejerky behavior of leftcom communities is the main thing driving people away from them and I'm saying this as someone who otherwise agrees with left-communism on many things.
They should stop trying to be the smartest and edgiest guy in the room for once and be a little more chill.
>>2799412Dude I literally made the same thread I made here.
>>2799418lol. I was gonna jokingly mention that controversy but decided not to. I actually haven't read that article and I'm not planning on reading it due to obvious reasons.
>>2799417No not really. Left-communism is made up of various communist trends who are in constant contradiction with each other (Council Communism, Communization Theory, the Italian Left-Communists split between Damenites, Bordigists and the ICC etc.)
You're probably talking about the sympathisers of the ICP and Bordiga who believe in the invariance of Marxist theory.
anyways lets stop talking about the sharty clone and actually on Communization Theory.
>>2799408Read "Eclipse and Re-emergence of the Communist Movement" and "When Insurrections Die" by Gilles Dauvé to get a better understanding of communizer theory:
https://libcom.org/article/when-insurrections-die-gilles-dauvehttps://files.libcom.org/files/Dauv%C3%A9%20with%20Martin%20-%20Eclipse%20and%20Re-emergence.pdfProbably dumb
>>2799417Bordigists specifically see Marxism and Dialectical Materialism as a science and as infalliable, without the need to update or adapt any
scripture theory according to changing conditions.
That said they are only one faction withing the leftcomosphere.
>>2799435A real Bordigist would tell you that "dialectical materialism" is not an actual thing.
>>2799461what they defend as methodology then ?, historical materialism ?.
>>2799395>>2799424Unironically a doomed place. Should’ve been a council communist board instead.
In thinking that he saw in Russian revolutionary circles the fruit of "the union of the working class movement and socialism" Lenin was seriously mistaken. The revolutionaries organised in social-democratic groups did not bring any "consciousness" to the proletariat. Of course an exposition or a theoretical article on Marxism was very useful to the workers: its use however was not to give consciousness or the idea of class struggle, but simply to clarify things and provoke further thought. Lenin did not understand this reality. He not only wanted to bring to the working class consciousness of the necessity of socialism in general, he also wanted to give them imperative watchwords explaining what they must do at a specific time. And this was quite normal since Lenin's party alone (as the trustee of class consciousness) was fit to discern the general interest of the working class beyond all its divisions into various strata, to analyse the situation at all times and to formulate appropriate watchwords, well, the 1905 revolution would have to show the practical inability of the Bolshevik party to direct' the working class and reveal the "behindness" of the vanguard party. All historians, even those favourable to the Bolsheviks, recognised that in 1905 the Bolshevik party understood nothing about the Soviets.
The appearance of new forms of organisation aroused the distrust of the Bolsheviks: Lenin stated that the Soviets were "neither a working class parliament nor an organ self-government". The important thing is to see that the Russian workers did not know that they were going to form Soviets. Only a very small minority amongst them knew about the experience of the Paris commune and yet they created an embryonic workers' state, though no one had educated them. The Kautskyist-Leninist thesis in fact denies the working class all power of original creation when not guided by the party, (as the fusion of the working class movement and socialism). Now you can see that in 1905, to take up a phrase from " Theses on Feuerbach", "the educator himself needs educating".
-Leninism or Communism by Gilles Dauvé (
https://archive.org/details/DauveGillesLeninismOrCommunism/mode/2up)
I visited bordiga.party here is an overview of what I found.
· it tried to uniquely identify my computer after requiring me to allow javascript
· it is just another instantiation of /r/ultraleft
· it has 4/pol/ level moderation on reactionary politics
· it correctly bans anarcho-ultras like communizers, but that is made irrelevant to the fact that they both describe themselves as 'ultras' in the home page as well as featuring Pannekoek in the site iconography, ultimately showcasing complete theoretical incoherence by a pretentious administrator.
1/10, shouting out
https://nukechan.net again (it also has I2P connection) for communists who want a backup for when the revisionists and opportunists mods and admins screw up, which will probably happen due to their vacant moderation making /siberia/ into a ticking time bomb for site-seizure).
>>2799793>nukechanThat looks like ass
>>2799806>a merely aesthetic retortConcession accepted.
You can pull the plug on your webserver now and retvrn to reddit/r/ultraleft with your furrytail between your legs.
>>2799806How? Is it because jschan (I think that's how the software is called, even if you can use it without js) or why? It is not very active but at least people can have a discussino there
talk about Communization assholes, keep the thread on topic
>>2799869>retvrn to reddit/r/ultraleftDon’t use it thank you kindly
>>2799870No, it’s just general post quality doesn’t look particularly great for a “back up”.
>>2799901>general post quality doesn’t look particularly great for a “back up”It is as it stands more because so far there hasn't been a leftypol exodus yet. The majority of the posters here are still too addicted to porn, petty bourg ideology and taking /pol/ bait to sustain traffic somewhere else (and thus the community is just dying in slow-mo over years rather than adapting and improving)
Communizers and CouncilComs are the only 'ultraleftists' worth paying attention to today. 'Bordigists' and the various Insane Clown Party splinter factions are worse than useless, and end up reproducing the worst aspects of AES Leninist parties.
>>2799391>some emphasis class struggle while others don't>>2799424>banned from /marx/seems consistent
>>2800106it still sucks man.
Anyways, for a critique of Communization there exists the article written by the ICT called "The Disappointed of 1968: Seeking Refuge in Utopia." It's more of a critique of Communizers who have abandoned the idea of class struggle and a critique against those who have even abandoned the existence of the working class. You can read it here:
https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2020-08-28/the-disappointed-of-1968-seeking-refuge-in-utopia >>2799405>Communizers who have abandoned the idea of class struggleSide questers at it again
>>2799405Communizers are modernizers, they are against the class party.
No one wants your anarchist shit on the bordigy, go to a food not bombs
>>2799899the links you provided are interesting reads, thanks for posting them, sadly most will ignore because it was posted by (You), this is the fate you have chosen
>>2799428>the main thing driving people away from themgood only the avthentic bordigoids must survive everyone else must die due to their revisionism and unjust hate for the heroic israeli proletariat
>>2800707keep the slander out of the discussion of communization theory
>>2800698>go to a foodTreats?
>>2800706how do they know?!?!?!?>>2800706
>>2799408>this sounds like more of a rhetorical framework and an anticipation of insurrection and things getting worse than a scientific theory of the presently emerging phase of the class struggle, I'm not gonna lie.You are too kind.
What they propose is that people
just spontaneously start giving and taking stuff without payment. That is the core of the theory. And for some communizers, this is the whole theory. Others combine it with demanding sabotage, not sabotage of the military/police equipment, but
random sabotage of infrastructure everybody uses, like train networks and the electricity grid. I'm not ironic, I'm not doing a parody. Completely asinine.
It's a type of poetry, really. Like the Italian Futurists, but much more verbose. The verbosity is also the reason I don't think they are Feds, as Feds would figure nobody wants to read through all this shit.
>>2801461What does Chuang talk about?
As Dauve says we can molest children into Communism.
>>2801461>The communizer idea that we could "riot our way to communism" is pretty weak.The same problem as dumbfuck autonomists who didn't learn shit from the Paris commune
>>2801775Plus 90% of present autonomists are neo-luddic reactionaries
>>2801461>>riot our way to communismWhy does it seem like while the greek anarchists love to riot, it feels more authentic than american anarchists? like its more like an IRA riot… its an entire neighborhood pouring out as one to combat against territory they see as their existing in conflict with their own. i'm not trying to hate it just seems when american anarchists or leftists tbh attempt anything like this it boils over into disorganized chaos quick, but in greece they seem more unified through and through. is it the individual logic of americanism creeping into every aspect of life, even movement life, or is it cointelpro being strong here? the cia is who invented cointelpro apparently, not the fbi, the fbi were just the proxy
>>2801832Because you're a retarded orientalist
>>2801600https://chuangcn.org/journal/Marxist analysis of China and SE Asia. Required reading for a non-retarded understanding of the PRC.
>>2801775The Paris Commune didn't seize the banks and didn't expand, that's why it failed. Communizers wish to use communism itself as a means of struggle against capitalism, and to paradoxically establish communism. This is done through communist measures.
A communist measure is the overcoming of exchange, money, value, the State, hierarchy, race, class, gender distinctions etc. What replaces them and the ways in which they are overcome changes according to the needs of the situation.
Communization tries to see opportunities in current struggles in which the course towards communism can be taken, it does not try to imagine a revolution in the future where "the conditions are ripe" but wishes to use current struggles as opportunities for communist revolution.
(
https://www.sicjournal.org/communist-measures-2/)
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