thread was originally on /marx/ on bordiga.party but they banned my ass so now we're here
>>2799391I have to read more about it to make my final judgement but quite frankly communization just sounds like Kaczynzkite retvrn to monke shit but with Marxist jargon thrown in.
>>2799397Most Communizers aren't primitivists. You're probably talking about Jacques Camatte, who has been influential to the development of Communization Theory. In one of the prefaces of "The Eclipse and Re-Emergence of the Communist Movement" Camatte is critiqued for his advocacy of primitivism.>>2799397
>>2799395>leftcom anon even got banned from bordiga.partyLMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>The overcoming of all existing conditions can only come from a phase of intense and insurrectionist struggle during which the forms of struggle and the forms of future life will take flesh in one and the same process, the latter being nothing else than the former. This phase, and its specific activity, is what we propose to call by the name of communisation.
>Communisation does not yet exist, but the whole present phase of struggles, as mentioned above, permits us to talk about communisation in the present. In Argentina, during the struggle that followed the riots of 2001, the determining factors of the proletariat as class of this society were shaken : property, exchange, division of labour, relations between men and women… The crisis was then limited to that country, so the struggle never passed the frontiers. Yet communisation can only exist in a dynamic of endless enlargement. If it stops it will fade out, at least momentarily. However, the perspectives of capitalism since the financial crisis of 2008 – perspectives which are very gloomy for it at a global level – permit us to think that next time the collapse of money will not restrict itself to Argentina. The point is not to say that the starting point will necessarily be a crisis of money, but rather to consider that in the present state of affairs various starting points are possible and that an imminent severe monetary crisis is undoubtedly one of them.
>In our opinion, communisation will be the moment when struggle will make possible, as a means for its continuation, the immediate production of communism. By communism we mean a collective organisation that has got rid of all the mediations which, at present, serve society by linking individuals among them : money, the state, value, classes, etc. The only function of these mediations is to make exploitation possible. While they are imposed on everybody, they benefit only a few. Communism will thus be the moment when individuals will link together directly, without their inter-individual relations being superimposed by categories to which everyone owes obedience.
this sounds like more of a rhetorical framework and an anticipation of insurrection and things getting worse than a scientific theory of the presently emerging phase of the class struggle, I'm not gonna lie.
>>2799395What reason did they give you?
>>2799410too annoying even for them.
how can the bordigist imageboard be remotely close to active enough to ban anyone who belongs to a different strain of leftcomism?
that seems like insanely self-destructive levels of purity testing, or maybe it's just a glimpse into the world of infinity purges you'd get with "organic centrism"
>>2799414isn't the entire point of leftcommunism is to find the one true canonical communist line to be followed in absolute like a bible verse, then how shit like this happens ?.
why isn't alice in monsterland in the OP
>>2799424actually braindead moderation.
>>2799424The overly smug, irony-poisoned and circlejerky behavior of leftcom communities is the main thing driving people away from them and I'm saying this as someone who otherwise agrees with left-communism on many things.
They should stop trying to be the smartest and edgiest guy in the room for once and be a little more chill.
>>2799412Dude I literally made the same thread I made here.
>>2799418lol. I was gonna jokingly mention that controversy but decided not to. I actually haven't read that article and I'm not planning on reading it due to obvious reasons.
>>2799417No not really. Left-communism is made up of various communist trends who are in constant contradiction with each other (Council Communism, Communization Theory, the Italian Left-Communists split between Damenites, Bordigists and the ICC etc.)
You're probably talking about the sympathisers of the ICP and Bordiga who believe in the invariance of Marxist theory.
anyways lets stop talking about the sharty clone and actually on Communization Theory.
>>2799408Read "Eclipse and Re-emergence of the Communist Movement" and "When Insurrections Die" by Gilles Dauvé to get a better understanding of communizer theory:
https://libcom.org/article/when-insurrections-die-gilles-dauvehttps://files.libcom.org/files/Dauv%C3%A9%20with%20Martin%20-%20Eclipse%20and%20Re-emergence.pdfProbably dumb
>>2799417Bordigists specifically see Marxism and Dialectical Materialism as a science and as infalliable, without the need to update or adapt any
scripture theory according to changing conditions.
That said they are only one faction withing the leftcomosphere.
>>2799435A real Bordigist would tell you that "dialectical materialism" is not an actual thing.
>>2799461what they defend as methodology then ?, historical materialism ?.
>>2799395>>2799424Unironically a doomed place. Should’ve been a council communist board instead.
In thinking that he saw in Russian revolutionary circles the fruit of "the union of the working class movement and socialism" Lenin was seriously mistaken. The revolutionaries organised in social-democratic groups did not bring any "consciousness" to the proletariat. Of course an exposition or a theoretical article on Marxism was very useful to the workers: its use however was not to give consciousness or the idea of class struggle, but simply to clarify things and provoke further thought. Lenin did not understand this reality. He not only wanted to bring to the working class consciousness of the necessity of socialism in general, he also wanted to give them imperative watchwords explaining what they must do at a specific time. And this was quite normal since Lenin's party alone (as the trustee of class consciousness) was fit to discern the general interest of the working class beyond all its divisions into various strata, to analyse the situation at all times and to formulate appropriate watchwords, well, the 1905 revolution would have to show the practical inability of the Bolshevik party to direct' the working class and reveal the "behindness" of the vanguard party. All historians, even those favourable to the Bolsheviks, recognised that in 1905 the Bolshevik party understood nothing about the Soviets.
The appearance of new forms of organisation aroused the distrust of the Bolsheviks: Lenin stated that the Soviets were "neither a working class parliament nor an organ self-government". The important thing is to see that the Russian workers did not know that they were going to form Soviets. Only a very small minority amongst them knew about the experience of the Paris commune and yet they created an embryonic workers' state, though no one had educated them. The Kautskyist-Leninist thesis in fact denies the working class all power of original creation when not guided by the party, (as the fusion of the working class movement and socialism). Now you can see that in 1905, to take up a phrase from " Theses on Feuerbach", "the educator himself needs educating".
-Leninism or Communism by Gilles Dauvé (
https://archive.org/details/DauveGillesLeninismOrCommunism/mode/2up)
I visited bordiga.party here is an overview of what I found.
· it tried to uniquely identify my computer after requiring me to allow javascript
· it is just another instantiation of /r/ultraleft
· it has 4/pol/ level moderation on reactionary politics
· it correctly bans anarcho-ultras like communizers, but that is made irrelevant to the fact that they both describe themselves as 'ultras' in the home page as well as featuring Pannekoek in the site iconography, ultimately showcasing complete theoretical incoherence by a pretentious administrator.
1/10, shouting out
https://nukechan.net again (it also has I2P connection) for communists who want a backup for when the revisionists and opportunists mods and admins screw up, which will probably happen due to their vacant moderation making /siberia/ into a ticking time bomb for site-seizure).
>>2799793>nukechanThat looks like ass
>>2799806>a merely aesthetic retortConcession accepted.
You can pull the plug on your webserver now and retvrn to reddit/r/ultraleft with your furrytail between your legs.
>>2799806How? Is it because jschan (I think that's how the software is called, even if you can use it without js) or why? It is not very active but at least people can have a discussino there
talk about Communization assholes, keep the thread on topic
>>2799869>retvrn to reddit/r/ultraleftDon’t use it thank you kindly
>>2799870No, it’s just general post quality doesn’t look particularly great for a “back up”.
>>2799901>general post quality doesn’t look particularly great for a “back up”It is as it stands more because so far there hasn't been a leftypol exodus yet. The majority of the posters here are still too addicted to porn, petty bourg ideology and taking /pol/ bait to sustain traffic somewhere else (and thus the community is just dying in slow-mo over years rather than adapting and improving)
Communizers and CouncilComs are the only 'ultraleftists' worth paying attention to today. 'Bordigists' and the various Insane Clown Party splinter factions are worse than useless, and end up reproducing the worst aspects of AES Leninist parties.
>>2799391>some emphasis class struggle while others don't>>2799424>banned from /marx/seems consistent
>>2800106it still sucks man.
Anyways, for a critique of Communization there exists the article written by the ICT called "The Disappointed of 1968: Seeking Refuge in Utopia." It's more of a critique of Communizers who have abandoned the idea of class struggle and a critique against those who have even abandoned the existence of the working class. You can read it here:
https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2020-08-28/the-disappointed-of-1968-seeking-refuge-in-utopia >>2799405>Communizers who have abandoned the idea of class struggleSide questers at it again
>>2799405Communizers are modernizers, they are against the class party.
No one wants your anarchist shit on the bordigy, go to a food not bombs
>>2799899the links you provided are interesting reads, thanks for posting them, sadly most will ignore because it was posted by (You), this is the fate you have chosen
>>2799428>the main thing driving people away from themgood only the avthentic bordigoids must survive everyone else must die due to their revisionism and unjust hate for the heroic israeli proletariat
>>2800707keep the slander out of the discussion of communization theory
>>2800698>go to a foodTreats?
>>2800706how do they know?!?!?!?>>2800706
>>2799408>this sounds like more of a rhetorical framework and an anticipation of insurrection and things getting worse than a scientific theory of the presently emerging phase of the class struggle, I'm not gonna lie.You are too kind.
What they propose is that people
just spontaneously start giving and taking stuff without payment. That is the core of the theory. And for some communizers, this is the whole theory. Others combine it with demanding sabotage, not sabotage of the military/police equipment, but
random sabotage of infrastructure everybody uses, like train networks and the electricity grid. I'm not ironic, I'm not doing a parody. Completely asinine.
It's a type of poetry, really. Like the Italian Futurists, but much more verbose. The verbosity is also the reason I don't think they are Feds, as Feds would figure nobody wants to read through all this shit.
>>2801461What does Chuang talk about?
As Dauve says we can molest children into Communism.
>>2801461>The communizer idea that we could "riot our way to communism" is pretty weak.The same problem as dumbfuck autonomists who didn't learn shit from the Paris commune
>>2801775Plus 90% of present autonomists are neo-luddic reactionaries
>>2801461>>riot our way to communismWhy does it seem like while the greek anarchists love to riot, it feels more authentic than american anarchists? like its more like an IRA riot… its an entire neighborhood pouring out as one to combat against territory they see as their existing in conflict with their own. i'm not trying to hate it just seems when american anarchists or leftists tbh attempt anything like this it boils over into disorganized chaos quick, but in greece they seem more unified through and through. is it the individual logic of americanism creeping into every aspect of life, even movement life, or is it cointelpro being strong here? the cia is who invented cointelpro apparently, not the fbi, the fbi were just the proxy
>>2801832Because you're a retarded orientalist
>>2801600https://chuangcn.org/journal/Marxist analysis of China and SE Asia. Required reading for a non-retarded understanding of the PRC.
>>2801775The Paris Commune didn't seize the banks and didn't expand, that's why it failed. Communizers wish to use communism itself as a means of struggle against capitalism, and to paradoxically establish communism. This is done through communist measures.
A communist measure is the overcoming of exchange, money, value, the State, hierarchy, race, class, gender distinctions etc. What replaces them and the ways in which they are overcome changes according to the needs of the situation.
Communization tries to see opportunities in current struggles in which the course towards communism can be taken, it does not try to imagine a revolution in the future where "the conditions are ripe" but wishes to use current struggles as opportunities for communist revolution.
(
https://www.sicjournal.org/communist-measures-2/)
>>2799395You got banned? I always knew you werent a real theorycel ultroid bordigger.
>>2803749Bordiga was FAT while Dauve is a skinny TWINK. I'll never be a Bordigger, never!
bump
>>2805997lmao what the fuck is their major malfunction
>tfw value-form still exists
just shut it down already
>>2801461>That being said, communizer-adjacent people like Phil Neel, Aaron Benanav, and the Chuang people are the most interesting writers on the left right now, since they're actually trying to critique contemporary political economy without becoming bourgeois or sounding completely delusional. Breath of fresh air when the average leftist discourse is usually just straight up lying about reality. Patiently waiting for Hellworld to release in paperback, as well as Chuang Issue 3.completely agree. ive never been particularly impressed or persuaded by the communizers themselves but the stuff that has emerged out of and peripheral to them is some of the only contemporary communist analysis that feels like its doing worthwhile, concrete analysis of actual social conditions rather than relitigating doctrinal squabbles and trying to fit the world into categories outlined in mid 20th century political programmes
not sure if these prole.info people are communizers/leftcom/whatever but this at least reminds me of stuff in the phil a neel vein and ive gotten a lot of use out of this text in particular for introducing people to basic marxist concepts
https://archive.org/details/thehousingmonster>>2799391op will be fash in 3 years tops
>>2806339Last I heard prole.info is not a "leftcom" or a "communizer" but close to a tendency that reads both and also reads anarchist texts. This tendency does not self-identify as anything but communist and revolutionary.
>>2799398Camatte was never a communizer or a primitivist. He was a bordigist/damenist who considered that most of humanity was too domesticated for the proles to act in consequence of their historical interests and decided to drop out and homestead.
You could say he was his own brand of anti-civ I guess but there's a big difference between anti-civs and primmies even though there's an overlap.
>>2806440>He was a bordigist/damenist who considered that most of humanity was too domesticated for the proles to act in consequence of their historical interests has he been deboonked? I hold the same view tbh, Im interested in "refutations" that come from an ultroid/communizer angle
>>2806476It was just his honest opinion and I can't blame him tbh. I still think there's nothing left to live for without the struggle for communism but we all see how that's going… only the proletariat becoming the class of consciousness and liberating itself on the global scale can debunk him, and I'm sure he would have loved more than anything to be proven wrong in this regard.
>>2806026What's a "appelistas"?
>>2806440Thanks for the clarification.
>>2809182Appelistas are the Tiqqun/invisible committee/Lundi Matin gang, called that because of their text "L'Appel" (The Call). It's not just that their leadership are middle class and petty booj academic types and their texts are meandering PoMo drivel, they have even kidnapped and tortured comrades for disagreeing with them at assemblies. Ask any ZAD kid about their manipulation and opportunism.
I still read Lundi.am sometimes though.
>>2809185>>2806440He literally wrote for the Fifth Estate
>>2809253oh damn, I myself have just started reading Tiqqun's Bloom Theory and yeah, their writing style is certainly annoying. Still reading it though just to understand what the hell their talking about.
Is their any texts or articles about their kidnapping shit like you claim? Also whats "ZAD"?
Didn't know some communizers were this insane or, more accurately, in the real world, since a lot of people who fit the leftcom umbrella are rarely seen doing activity irl and or mostly relegated into online communities (other than the mainline ICP and ICT).
The only irl thing that any communizer has done (from what I know) is the Tarnac Nine case in France.
>>2809267>Tarnac NineNever existed
>>2809265Freddy published Dauvé and I think Vaneigem as well. Not everything in FE was primmie, and imo he was the only primmie worth reading. Respect, even though I disagree with a lot of his positions.
>>2809267ZAD is the broad forest occupation and defense movement, mostly in france but there's also Hambi in germany. Appelistas have tried to control it in a very cynical and manipulative way, often using their weight to push for reformist compromises against the more radical elements. As I've implied I really don't consider Apellistas to be communizers or even "anarcho-communizers" as some have labelled them. They have very different means and goals.
>>2809278How? Could you specify why it didn't exist?
>>2809279If you don't mind, could you further specify why the Apellistas aren't communizers? I mean, from what I've heard, they (Tiqqun and The Invisible Committee) are closer to insurrectionary anarchism, so I can kind of see your point.
>>2809340>could you specify ?Litterally made up by the government, the judges proved the guys that did get arrested didn't belong to any group at all, and that it was a political scarecrow to look tough against "left-wing terrorism"
>>2809340>could you further specify why the Apellistas aren't communizers? I was going to go into a bit more detail about the lore but on second thought it's probably not a good idea on a place such as this… Basically don't think they come from the same "lineage" as so-called communizer groups so to speak, and not from insus like Bonanno either. Let's just say they are their own scene and people that know them don't trust them
>>2809457whats the context for the second image lol?
>>2809459Iirc someone was spamming and shitting up the log and asking for a /raid/ board and that was the response from jannies
>>2809451unit 82000 isnt sending their best .
>>2809464 (me)
also for context /thread/575 is your typical "brown migrants aren't real proles they're filthy scabs" bait that we've had on leftypol over 9000 times. It's probably still up (not gonna check)
Also I'm willing to bet that the pedo invasion we had on here yesterday was the bordy crew's doing
>>2809464both of you should be executed
>>2801832because it's not spontaneous even the anarchists have a ton of organization and infraestructure behind
>>2801832because they're not funded by neo liberals like American anarchists are
>>2809457that jannie speaks my kind of language
>>2801832because americans are stupid
>>2809952Thank you, I think Endnotes is one of the most interesting groups dealing with Marxist theory today, and I should read them more.
I specifically recommend "A History of Separation: The Rise and Fall of the Workers' Movement, 1883-1982" in Endnotes 4 as a critique of the traditional labour movement.
And if you want a short blackpill about activism, open the Endnotes 5 PDF and Ctrl+F "The Impotence of the Revolutionary group?", enjoy.
I find it weird this topic doesn't get much discussion here, its the kind of thing that I would expect people with fringe politics would be into
>>2801461>The communizer idea that we could "riot our way to communism" is pretty weak. There are glaringly obvious problems with this idea, which were partially demonstrated during the Floyd protests in 2021, which is probably why interest in communization theory petered out during the Biden yearsI guess it has to do with this, not just in burgerland but on an international scale I remember there were lots of riots a few years ago, and it all went nowhere
>>2810006>I find it weird this topic doesn't get much discussion hereFrom what I've seen most leftypol users are MLs or porn addicts so this lack of discussion (up until now) isn't surprising.
I'm also interested on why all the riots stopped. I think its because the rioters had no concrete goal, they didn't know what to do after burning down the stores and breaking through the barricades. They had no vision and their demands were vague (e.g. with the Floyd protests demands ranged from police abolition to police reform).
Dauvé talks about this vagueness leading to the revolution dying in "Eclipse and Re-emergence of the Communist Movement," though I wouldn't be surprised if some other theorists made the same claim before him.
Another example of this revolutionary vagueness leading to failure could be the German Revolution of 1918-1919 where the communists distinguished themselves from the social democrats quite late. This made the workers of Germany confused on which side to support, which was made worse with the social democrats supporting the newly formed soviets. (
https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2001-08-01/1921-beginning-of-the-counter-revolution)
>>2810006They didn't just fizzle out on their own. The international wave of rebellions from 2018-2020, which were spreading, was crushed by the COVID measures and the "covid relief" bailouts (massive liquidity injections) which delayed the immanent financial crisis that would have very possibly fanned the flamed and turned the wave of rebellions into a revolutionary tsunami.
>>2810284> I think its because the rioters had no concrete goal, they didn't know what to do after burning down the stores and breaking through the barricades. They had no vision and their demands were vagueThere was a clear process of insurrectionary clarification going on, at least from the accounts I've heard from comrades the uprising in ecuador and chile and from the Yellow Vests in france. Apolitical proles were organically building radical class consciousness through participation and there was a real potential for these "hunger riot" movements to spill over into something much bigger. Of course the opportunist, reformist, counterrevolutionary elements contributed to extinguishing the flame as well but imo the COVID measures were the biggest factor.
For anyone who is interested in reading a critique of communization theory you can read the ICT's article called "The Disappointed of 1968: Seeking Refuge in Utopia" (
https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2020-08-28/the-disappointed-of-1968-seeking-refuge-in-utopia).
Its more of a critique against communizers who have abandoned class struggle or believe that there is no such thing as a "working class" anymore but if anyone is interested they can read it.
bump
>>2810286very convenient how covid happened just in the right moment haha
bump
>>2809408Could you provide a source for these claims?
Im currently reading Bloom Theory by Tiqqun and its an interesting piece of work. I simultaneously feel like it actually has something to say and also that it has nothing to say. Im kind of conflicted on how to feel about it, but the idea of Bloom seems interesting but its has such a vague definition imo. I wonder if their is a companion reader for the book that would make stuff a bit more understandable, as the book is too vague.
>>2821001You have spent much time reading this and thinking about it and you can't say you have gotten anything out of it, but you feel that somehow there must be a payoff at some point down the line and so you keep going? Well, I have the perfect companion piece for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost >>2821481That perfectly describes my current situation with this book lol. It does have some good points and arguments but, like I said before, its too vague. At least, if I am ultimately not satisfied with the book, I'll know that Tiqqun and its affiliates are shit theorists.
>>2822941The question is, which ICP does the road lead to?
yo thanks for recommending proles.info , clicked out of curiosity but im really enjoying their writing. does this mean im a communizer now.
>>2824883Depends on whether you'd define yourself as one. I would like to ask, what does prole.info defend? What aspects of their theory did you like as I myself have never read them before.
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