Official /leftybritpol/ Thread Themehttps://youtu.be/d8Irf1_GhbEDiscuss ongoing happenings in the UK and the wider islands.
Should we nuke the Falklands?
Should Starmer stay out of YOUR childs school?
Discuss this and more….in /leftypol/ UK edition.
The chapter about the working day in Capital Volume 1 is hands down the most boring shit I've ever read
Skipped most of it including the quotes and ever since I've been put off reading the entire book again
>>2801472It's not super essential to capital so as long as you skim through and get a companion book or a video to explain the main point of the chapter to you it should be fine
Any pdfs on the history of British trotskyism?
What are your thoughts on the triple lock?
Given it can rise considerably more than wages do it seems like year-on-year it would be increasingly unsustainable. Predominantly at the expense of workers.
But then I read the following article from the Socialist Party that commits to defending the triple lock.
https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/115633/20-09-2023/pension-triple-lock-under-threat-fight-for-pensions-we-can-live-on/Interesting that the UK has one of the lowest state pensions in Europe (though a quick Google search says it is 13th out of 28).
Do you agree with the Socialist Party article? Are there socialist critical of the triple lock?
>>2801478read tony blairs biography
>>2801503the triple lock is bad for everyone who isn't a pensioner. if all wages were 'triple locked' in a similar way the maybe that would be okay but that's a separate proposal.
pensioners aren't really the problem with the uk but they certainly aren't helping
however, campaigning as socialists on cutting people's pensions is not exactly good politics, we should just advocate for abolishing capitalism
>>2801518>we should just advocate for abolishing capitalismYou'd need more specific policies than that if campaigning
>>2801518and exactly what does "abolishing capitalism" mean electorally? you should try to stand on something more than a vague promise like that, abolishing triple lock pensions and say replacing them with another system appeals to everyone who isn't a pensioner
>>2801508Was blair a militant guy? That’s be really funny if he was
>>2801632>You'd need more specific policies than that if campaigningOkay sure, fine, advocate for all benefits and minimum wage to be 'triple locked' in the same fashion. I wouldn't be writing an article saying 'defend the triple lock pension' though personally.
>>2801637I feel like the public anger against the triple lock is not high enough to openly be like 'fuck pensioners'
>>2801486I'm in the background of the swimming bit somewhere. Great day.
>>2801672this is about as credible as all those freaks who are like 'yeah i used to be a super big atheist, i slayed so much pussy too, but then I found jesus'
>>2801672He wasn’t even part of a student group or militant or a cliffite, just reading trotsky or even agreeing with trotsky doesn’t make you a trot
>>2801703quite an own-goal, lmao, considering that many prominent new atheists were also part of trot youth groups (before they turned neocon as well, like Blair) lmao
>>2801703Its pretty within neocon tradition to have a history of being a student trot. Peter Hitchins was also one afaik.
>>2801714Even if that was true is that some kind of argument against Trotskyists? People can change their mind. In the Eastern bloc there's plenty of rightoids who used to be MLs so I hardly see how they can claim superiority. There's no ex ML politicians in the UK because ML has been for most of a century so fringe and meaningless even by the standards of the socialist left.
Police arrested the three people on the London May Day march from Young Struggle today. possibly the first May Day related arrests since the 1990s.
>>2801718Who are you people and where do you come from? How and why are you people ignorant about the Trot->NeoCon pipeline?
>There's no ex ML politicians in the UK because ML has been for most of a century so fringe and meaningless even by the standards of the socialist left.There are no ex-ML(M) politicians because ML is as a tendency is concisdered to be an existential treat to the point it gets utterly crushed and/or subverted, contrary to Trots, duh.
The real reason though is that trotskyists were and are predominately middle class and/or graduates. The only ones who weren't were Militant (and most of theirs remained active socialists or emigrated like Hatton). MLs on the other hand were almost entirely working class and its adherents either remained in the CPB, remained sympathetic but stopped engaging in activism, or fell into the working class Labour milieu. Trotskyists go to work at think tanks MLs carry on working on the railways.
>>2801799Disillusioned ML who goes to work every day reporting in
>>2801821I ran into one on the way home from the Your Party conference. Glaswegian said "I joined the YCL as a young man, make them two [Corbyn & Sultana] work together so we can finally fix things". I am sorry comrade, I failed you.
Quit pretending to be anything other than Americans
You now remember the 2010 Conservative-Lib Dem coalition
Anyone else here in one of the areas with no votes this week? What are you doing??
>>2801771>Who are you people and where do you come from? How and why are you people ignorant about the Trot->NeoCon pipeline?It's just a lazy thought terminating cliche, 99% of Trots do not go on to become neocons
>There are no ex-ML(M) politicians because ML is as a tendency is concisdered to be an existential treat to the point it gets utterly crushed and/or subverted, contrary to Trots, duh.lol. what crushing. the major socialist forces in the UK that have ended up getting attacked after ww2 are trot groups because they're the ones who actually tried to achieve anything
>>2801799looool complete bullshit. I barely ever even see any british MLs but I see plenty of working class trots, yeah most of them went to uni but so what, half of all young people do nowadays and plenty of people with degrees work on the railways or whatever workerist stereotype you want to bring up
>>2801799This is the actually correct materialist analysis.
>>2801834Do you get proper socialists at those events or is it idpol-centric?
>>2801924>looool complete bullshit. I barely ever even see any british MLs but I see plenty of working class trots, yeah most of them went to uni but so what, half of all young people do nowadays and plenty of people with degrees work on the railways or whatever workerist stereotype you want to bring upThere aren't a lot but the ones that are are predominately, if not entirely working class both culturally and socioeconomically. The only working class trots I have met are old enough to remember Bloody Sunday.
>>2802147Neither comrade: nowadays you get nobody.
Seriously though it was a real mix, but fewer idepollers than you would expect (a lot were doing muslim identity politics instead).
>>2802230cultural capital + economic position
>>2802234Cultural capital is real, a librarian who makes 30k a year but who lives in a house given to them in central London who goes to the opera with his Eton mates is a higher class position than Joe Bricklayer who makes 120k a year but goes to the footy and the pub.
>>2802236Do you actually believe that or are you just trolling? Be honest
>>2802238I genuinely dont know what you find so obscene about this lol, class is real, socialism is for the working class - culture is also real and class gated.
Why do you think Farage spends so much energy trying to LARP as a working class lad down the pub? He knows what cultural capital is, you dont seem to understand.
>>2802239I'm aware of the cultural stereotypes you're referring to but I'm stunned that someone who claims to be a socialist would actually treat them as if they're a real thing instead of just a cudgel used by the media to beat the left with.
>>2802240Describing the way things are isnt an endorsement of them, if given levers of power id be seeking to deconstruct a society that rewards cultural capital
>>2802247I always understood 'middle class' as not something material within the UK, but as a cultural aberration to separate the conservative working class from the left.
>>2802242Why do you think not going to the pub is 'rewarded' in the UK? As you point out all the politicians try to pretend to be men of the people and pretend like they go to pubs. Seems to me like that's a class of society that is more pandered to. I bet a lot more people play videogames in the UK than go to the footy yet again politicians pretend to like football not that they're gamers.
>>2802248Well yes that's exactly what it is, so why should we chastise Trots for not being 'culturally middle class' (read: right wing) again?
>>2802252Ahem, I meant culturally working class obviously
>>28022435 MORE YEARS OF THE TORIES
>>2802251They pander to it because they are the biggest voting bloc, they cannot not pander to them.
In reality though Farage is spending time at Trumps private residence and is jetting around sucking off the upper class. That is his true cultural capital.
>>2802252There are two types of trots, those that dont get power and those that do. Those that get power end up being neo-cons because there anti-communism makes them useful idiots.
>>2801503The irony of the triple lock is that it's actually cheaper than Labour's old system because of inflation measurements. (Basically Labour's was highest of wages or RPI, Tories is highest of wages, CPI, or 2%, RPI is generally higher than CPI)
The triple lock is a bit dumb (there's no reason to lock in a 2% increase no matter what) but ideally one would hike the state pension and fund it by raiding private pensions and unstupiding the tax system (e.g. abolish national insurance and hike income tax to compensate because NI is just regressive income tax with stupid cutouts for landlords and pensioners and such)
>>2802236You can see with someone like Gary's Economics, the painful affection he puts into that London accent. As someone properly socialised into British class society, it does sound dreadful to hear intelligent words mediated by such a stupid sound; reminds me of Will Hunting in that film, where its interminably discordant, and its impossible for me to abide by it, which is my own classism.
It is true in some respect that to speak and write "properly" forces one to shift their tone into a more universal frequency, while what is particular may as well be a foreign accent fit for plebs and peasants. I hear my own regional accent (scouse) in media and it sends shivers up my spine (as I'm sure it does to many people), of nothing more than the fact that its simply misplaced; it doesnt belong. For the same reasons, its really quite impossible to preserve the "working class" essence of a movement without dumbing it down. And I say all this as a pauper who is self-educated.
>>2802236Insofar as cultural capital is real it should be the object of national policy to maximise it. Unlike financial capital, a lack of cultural capital in the internet age in large part reflects badly on you personally. One can be materially poor out of misfortune but it's much harder to make excuses for bad taste (and some of the worst taste is found with some of the richest people.)
>>2802264Yes I agree with the approach, it would be an abundance of culture for everyone and a devaluing of the class barriers put up that prevent proles from accessing culture (think price gouging for gig tickets)
>>2802265What if its natural for there to be high and low culture?
I was talking to my dad the other day and he plainly said to me that he will never read the Bible, despite calling himself a Christian. He watches instagram reels all day instead. Some people cannot be made higher status no matter how much you invest in them.
>>2802266Its always going to be someones choice what culture they engage in, I suppose its just making it so the upper class cant self-segregate themselves and the prole has the option and material means to engage in 'high culture' if they wish to do so, rather than the current status quo where it is materially impossible for them to do so.
>>2802267>materially impossibleTo do what? Read books? Listen to Opera?
80% of class is just your accent anyway - if Christopher Lee spoke exclusively in brain rot, he would still be a high class person.
>>2802268Well on the books and opera part, its in theory accessible to the working class, in practice the ideological state apparatus railroads working class people away from either wanting to or having actual access to these things.
But this is an outdated idea of what 'upper class culture' even is in 2026 - its not the opera anymore really, its being on a spacex rocket into space, its on epsteins island. Dave down the pub isnt flying off the bezos private island is he?
>>2802272>Poor people arent allowed to read booksBrilliant analysis, mate.
We were all encouraged to read at school, but the "naughty" kids didnt want to put the effort in, did they? Point is, class is inevitable.
>But this is an outdated idea of what 'upper class culture' even is in 2026No its not.
>>2802275>>2802275what this book says more or less
And yeah I mean cultural capital is an analysis of a liberal society, im not arguing for it in any capacity other than to say we should do away with it.
>No its not.It is to a degree, I think the upper class have started to realize they need to physically separate themselves culturally behind summits and private islands to really stop the proles from leeching.
>>2802266High and low culture are sort of separate things. I'd say a cool person who strategically works with low culture is higher cultural capital than someone who goes to ballet or the opera, even if the latter is high culture. Even within communities the principle operates - e.g. you may not think furries are cool, but there are high and low cultural capital furries within their community. (And furry itself is in the fun meta zone where a cool person can show off how cool they are by engaging with them, but an uncool person will show themselves to be uncool by doing the same. Fun!)
>>2802279>re:booksNo ones stopping anyone from reading books, I grew up poor as shit and I read a shit ton. Im not saying that, but if you're not considering how people are programmed to actually want things you're missing an analysis of how the upper class use its structures to educate people down roads.
Power is best utilized when people genuinely believe they are doing something of there own free will when they arent, it works best when you cant see it.
>>2802279>We should do away with itHow? By banning the natural outgrowth of culture?
People are different, but they dont have to be oppressed in their difference.
>I think the upper class have started to realize they need to physically separate themselves culturally behind summits and private islands to really stop the proles from leeching.But this is universal of all class society? What do you think a mansion and country manor is? What is a temple, and who owns it?
>>2802279But the point on class is that never the twain shall meet. Its impossible for Billy Elliot to exist in his mining town, so has to be sent away. If you to university, many working class people see you as a traitor and climber; so culture and class mutually create each other, by formal distinctions.
>>2802284>>2802284>But this is universal of all class society? What do you think a mansion and country manor is? What is a temple, and who owns it?Both are examples of the upper class doing this type of thing, its just fair to say what type of culture the upper class is interested in isnt this fixed, immutable thing but that it can change with time. If you made all opera free tomorrow they'd find something else.
>>2802285The classic rural/urban class split. This is why North Korea mandates all politicians spend at least 15 years working in the countryside before they can be considered for senior roles.
>>2802289Opera is free - Its on YouTube.
The world's libraries are on the internet.
There are no more excuses; we are at the end of history in many ways.
>How? By banning the natural outgrowth of culture?Also I addressed this here.
>>2802265 >>2802290>hey look ive been to espteins island because I looked at a google image picture of itIts not the same is it
>>2802293We are more wealthy today than the Phaoroahs of Egypt and medieval kings of Europe. We are Olympian gods compared to them - there is no such thing as limits on our cultural consumption, except our own natural inclinations. If my dad wants to be stupid, why should I try to change him? He's stuck in his ways.
>>2802296Its not about forcing your dad to goto the opera, its about stopping the upper class from making the opera 10k a ticket.
>>2801672Darth Blair rising…
>>2802236Bourdieu talked about this.
>>2802298It only seems worse for them, not us.
I like opera, but I know I would hate an opera show.
>>2802298Think of it like hipsters (which I count myself amongst);
Whatever becomes accessible loses its marginal fashionability, and so loses its coolness. If you crammed a bunch of the lower orders into these shows, in their tracksuits and improper mouth sounds, the elite would just move to another area of mental masturbation. The illusions of sublimity in fine art is undercut by the rise of modern art, which fixed a niche audience by its very ugliness, and so its lack of popular appeal. Now, you are a reactionary pleb if you think cathedrals look better than modernist slop. So that is also the pathology of class, which is inherently antagonistic.
>>2802298This is already mostly the case. For under 26es Scottish Opera tickets are £15, for under 30s English national opera tickets are £20-40, unemployed people can get National Opera tickets for £20-30, and there are various other discounts for retirees and the disabled and so on.
Though I'd emphasize again that high culture and cultural capital aren't entirely the same thing. There are high and low cultural capital posters even on /leftypol/ (our resident TERF underperforms anons, some flagposters used to do better than anons, etc), cultural capital - coolness and status - is great because unlike physical capital it isn't scarce. If I feel high status because I'm a skilled speedrunner and you're not, and you feel high status because you've read Marx more than me, we're both happy. Competition for a scarce resource is limited so long as you've the flexibility of mind to choose something you do well in. (A lot of seething is generated by more conventional people not realising they can do this and perceiving minorities as competing for a scarce resource)
>>2802309>cultural capital isnt scarceYes it is. Fashion is inherently marginal.
>>2802296A funny moment where this wasnt the case was London MDMA rave culture in the early 90s, you had tracksuit lads gurnin away with rich banker types.
>>2802313But isnt there always insincerity in these sorts of congregations? An ironic detachment and over-performance?
>>2802312But fashions exist differently in different groups. If I get a fursuit from a popular designer, would you be able to discern my taste, wealth, and social connections to get such a thing against a cheap suit from a no-name newbie?
I think there is value to what Burnikano Faso flag is saying. I myself know lots of people with the good network who don't make lots of money but live in cozy rent stabilized appartment in Paris Intra Muros thanks to being the son of a friend of an important bureaucrat, all while being on a schoolteachers salary etc.
But the cultural capital > actual capital argument can become stupid when you go full ACP and decide the urban service worker sharing a flat with his 10 roomates is actually bourgeois because uhh they a rateyourmusic.com account, went to the cinématheque once and go to the club.
GALLOWAY COMES IN SUPPORT FOR INDYREF
To the People of Scotland
Many have legitimately asked why having opposed Scottish Independence all my life I have decided to back #ReferendumNow and have given my personal pledge to campaign for Independence alongside @yvonneridley
I won’t pretend that my being held by armed agents of the British state under the TERRORISM Act was not a personal Rubicon for me. It was very definitely a turning point.
But as I said at the time, repeatedly, several earlier episodes had holed my allegiance to the British state as it turned out fatally.
The role of the British state in assisting in the murder of Gaza and the subsequent anathematising of the millions of our people who rose up against it. The twisting and destruction of ancient liberties in defence of the most hated foreign power in the world has been more damaging than our rulers have yet realised.
The endless provocation of Russia by Europe has been mainly driven by the British state. Yet by raising my voice against it I lived in fear of being criminalised and my words extinguished by censorship and even imprisonment.
I grew up in a time in which in Britain I could speak freely even before being elected seven times to the British Parliament and certainly within it. That Britain no longer exists.
Having striven with 17.4 million others to remove our country from the tyranny of the European Union I discovered that our own tyranny could be quite as grim and moreover without a vote being cast for it we were on our way back in!
So Britain is dead to me now.
Not the people of course, they are my people and I theirs, and always will be so.
I love still the contours of our land and the cadences of our language every last dialect of it.
But it’s goodbye to the British state from me. And forward to a Republic in an independent Scotland. And a hope that one day all the peoples of our island will be together again. In mutual respect and harmony. Which I continue to call socialism.
George Galloway
In exile.
>It's over
<ExUk is real
>>2802315>but fashion exists in different groupsSure, but different groups also have different levels of social power.
You can be king of the furries, but a loser to everyone else.
You can be the best poster on leftypol, but a nobody everywhere else.
I think a great discordance is in a figure like Elon Musk, who is so rich, yet also such a loser, because he has no real belonging in the liberal hegemony, by his obtuse dissonance to it. If you use the word "woke" unironically, say (like our resident TERF, who I do appreciate for their sincerity), then you simply cannot advance in your status.
>>2802316You can be homeless and still be elite; that is the true paradox of class, which must be reckoned with.
>>2802316I once read a good essay by some right wing economist about society being divided between yuppie types (bad taste, good at wealth generation) and priest typed (good taste, bad at wealth generation) positing this as a civilizational theory and explaining why, for example, US elites of the second kind hate trump and elites of the first kind love him. (And also why elites of the second type would prefer regulatory socialism to libertarianism, since the latter would remove them while the former would let them indulge their passion for rules)
Can't find it now though. Wouldn't say it was "correct" but it was an interesting idea.
>>2802324I also know plenty of bourgeois (well son/daughter of bourgeois) who are basically NEETs or never held any kind of job/responsibility, have no IRL friends, dropped out of school at 15 and are sometimes on welfare. It is interesting that their class and wealth did not shield them from ending up in a similar situation than prole/middle class NEETs.
Difference is that when their parents are going to die they wont become homeless and die under a bridge in the cold.
>>2802314I think what happened was the banker types bought the nightclubs or opened up venues of there own, pushed out the trackie lads into illegal raves and criminalized both the drugs and the music.
>>2802327Merchants vs Brahmin
>>2802321"Bangers and mash? Don't like it, never heard of it!"
>>2802248The middle class is perhaps the most real thing in the UK. See vidrel
>>2801785 >>2802252I can tell you are a middle class lefty with a chip on your shoulder.
Quick question: what industry do you work in? Did your parents own their house? Piano lessons? How often did you use a foodbank?
You will find the trot answers this: white collar, yes, yes, and no.
Why should the UK even be an independent country?
if you aren't in that bit of the lower middle class where your parents did working class jobs but you're personally unemployed or underemployed and you've managed to get yourself in a position where you're alienated from them but also from real middle class people but you've not really risen to the level that would mean you've just become middle class with a chip on your shoulder like more successful people in your position so you mostly look outside Britain to countries without this weird caste system for an external reference for what is normal, where have you been?
>>2802389You support the expansion of the American Empire?
>>2802383I didnt deny it wasnt real, more that instead of being in relation to economic reality it is more of a cultural sub-group of working class people that other themselves from the percieved lower-strata of the working class.
Ive talked to people who consider themselves 'middle class' just because they live in a small town, everyone involved in the family works a mediocre 9-5.
Its a mindset.
>>2802432I think the whole Anglo sphere should be one country without a monarch who is an illegal immigrant from the Netherlands anyway
I see people suggesting that "more" must be done for British Jews - what does this actually mean?
>>2802445Especially when they’re literally the richest ethnoreligious group in the UK
>>2802445Drone striking anyone who thinks murdering Palestinian babies is wrong
>>2802435I have to disagree, it comes from being propertied and having the security of that. That small town probably has a 80-90% owner-occupier rate.
>>2802445Full application of the Noahide Laws for the Goyim, meaning mandatory executions for Christians
>>2802457Get the lion pits opened
Get the crucifixions started
>>2802384I mean yeah you probably would call me middle class, even though I earn like £27.5k. I work as a support worker, my mum owns house passed down from grandma yes, no piano lessons, I don't believe we used a foodbank but not like my mum would have told me, things were pretty tight TBH though.
None of that actually proves/disproves that I'm middle class anyway so what's the point? I'm definitely better off than some but also worse off than many. I've had long periods of unemployment, shit mental health, etc. I will not and never will accept that someone like me is better off than some plumber making 120k or whatever.
>>2802445Well the the Met is setting up a special taskforce to crack down on antisemitism, probably shit like that
>>2802462You cant see how you could potentially be better off than someone making 100k a year when you dont have to pay rent?
>>2802495Add kids, income tax and a single household and 100k quickly becomes nothing when your rents like 2-3k a month - its almost always better to own.
>>2802501Baffling that you're trying to justify that. Individuals working white collar positions earning THREE times the median salary are not working class
>>2802506You literally own an asset worth several hundred thousand pounds that most people work there entire lives to pay off.
>>2802508Your argument is absolutely fucking ludicrous, just shut up
>>2802516my argument is material analysis, suck my balls
Ah yes, because a support worker is middle class whilst the finance bro living in London with two kids and is on 100k is working class
>>2802521I know tons of middle class people who live in high COL cities where rent is several thousand pounds, they can work low paying jobs because they own a house in that city worth near a million.
Yes that puts them above someone renting.
>>2802526And? So? What of it?
>>2801807why does she have a roadman accent?
>>2802528Try reading the rest of the thread sweety, we're discussing class x
There is nothing morally wrong with this, you just seem unable to see that you're better off than someone who has a higher income on paper but who is renting.
There rent can go up at the landlords whim, yours cant.
>>2802526I sincerely do not give two shits my friend, I've met retards like you who despite earning well above the average try to cope with their neurotic privileged existence by rationalising themselves as working class
Home ownership does not make you middle class; these definitions seem flexible because they are mere phantoms of the real system of wealth at work. That you think a support worker is middle class speaks to how ignorant you are of the real world
Woe is me, I rent in Covent Gardens and am therefore on par with African diamond mining children
>>2802533I also make under 30k a year actually lol, I just have to rent a place - going to argue we're the same class? Didnt think so.
>>2802540Are you a support worker
>>2802539its this kind of house owner retardium that im talking about really, you have no clue the reality of how hard it actually is to fully buy a house off of a wage and how the banks/upper class can just keep raising interest rates to cash you out.
>>2802542and yes I know middle class support workers, its people who own property and can take lower paying jobs because its something they want to do vs something they are forced to do to pay rent.
>>2802543Your argument is on par with one had a few months ago when people were calling proles members of the petite bourgeoisie for home ownership
Just shut the fuck up in future
>>2802549the middle class trot seethes behind the house given to him for free that hes just like the poors
>>2802547Baffling that you're even arguing this, these are transient definitions of both a real and imaginary caste system in which you justify people earning a hundred thousand as working class yet support workers as middle class
You're a moron
>>2802552>you cannot consider asset holding in class analysis, only money whichs value is controlled by the upper classes banksConvenient we need to ignore the vector that is applicable to you.
>>2802553It isn't a capital asset, it's a commodity
Just stop arguing you fucking moron
>>2802555its both you fag
>>2802556You're a massive dunce who's never actually worked a day in their life
Seethe
>>2802557I am going to take your nans house away and you will work for pertemps in a 8 bedroom hmo flatshare forever.
>>2802529She's German, subtle difference I know but.
>>2802547It does makes sense though. I often see how people with debts and who rent work in more demanding but higher paying jobs while people who dont have debt and dont rent work in shitty jobs and dont seek more demanding but higher paying jobs.
>>2802472I moved out so yeah I pay rent, and even if I didn't, rent is way less than 70k per year lol, even in London. My mum's house is infested with damp and generally seems unsafe to live in honestly, btw. My mum was not working for most of my childhood and we were on benefits. Plus like all of my siblings have some kind of disability which didn't make things easier. I only went on like two holidays abroad (Netherlands and Corsica) my entire childhood with my mum and once to Ireland with my dad to visit his family if that even counts as abroad. Obviously yes I am very lucky my family had a house to live in growing up but that's not everything. It's stupid to play this game where we compare who is more oppressed anyway, a "middle class" person on £30k/yr is way closer to homeless than they are to the actual ruling class. If you earn £120k/yr and you haven't bought a house that's honestly just a skill issue, not sure what else to say
>>2802581>If you earn £120k/yr and you haven't bought a house that's honestly just a skill issue, not sure what else to sayMore than easy to do if you work and live in london and that wage is reliant on you living in London, which most 120k jobs do.
>>2802581>I moved out so yeah I pay rentSo whats up with your nans house, do you rent it out?
>>2802586One of my friends works in London earning only £35k/ye and he managed to buy a house in commute distance with his wife. It takes him an hour each way to work but hey it's not impossible. If you are on 120k you have no excuse for not saving enough for a deposit
>>2802587My mum lives there still dumbass, I've got no rights to it until she dies afaik, not that I would want to kick her out anyway
>>2802589Always gonna be outliers, your friend persumably is taking a house outside London and is DINK with his wife, doesnt have childcare ect.
I know someone making 100k+ a year in London, commuting an hour would be impossible because he works from 8am-9pm 6 days a week in the centre, he has to rent.
>>2802592Ok, let's do the maths, even though I said initially a plumber on £120k, I'll take £100k as the example.
Take home pay on that is £68,561 per year.
"As of early 2026, average rent in London is approximately £2,100–£2,250 per month for new tenancies, with significant variation based on location. Renting a one-bedroom home generally costs over £1,600 per month, while central locations often exceed £3,000. Rent is lowest in areas like Bexley and highest in Kensington and Chelsea."
Let's take £2250 per month as the example (that is a house all to yourself as well with no sharing), that adds up to £27,000 per year.
You are left with £41,561 to spend on everything other than housing and save for a deposit, that's over double what I earn after tax. Like I said, skill issue.
>>2802605>that's over double what I earn after tax. Like I said, skill issue.ok it's not quite double, but it's still £18000 more per year and that's before I have to pay rent
tldr: you are full of shit and just entirely fueled by idpol
>>2802605>energy bills and council tax dont exist>childcare doesnt existgo look up the cost of a nursery for 3 kids now and get back to us
>>2802611ok and how fucked would i be if i had to pay for childcare for 3 kids? a lot more than the person on 100k
What percent does rent take of your monthly wage?
>>2802612you'd get childcare for free, they wouldnt.
3 kids for them would be about 3-4k a month.
>>2802615this is why rent is the bastard, it gets clawed back no matter what you do if you dont own a place
>>2802613like 60% if i was paying it alone, more like 33% since i'm sharing with BF
>>2802615uhh source??? how would i get childcare for free? are you actually one of the people that thinks the upper class are more oppressed than people on benefits?
plenty of people that are on a lot less money than £100k manage to have kids and survive, even in London, BTW
>>2802611let's talk about council tax by the way. the council tax on band A in a random london borough I picked is £1650 per year, in my shitty city in the middle of nowhere it's £1630 per year. a whopping £20 more per year for londoners, wow, and in exchange for that they get actually functional busses, the best cultural/etc attractions in the country, much better schools, and a fucking subway
>>2802619ok? yeah rent sucks, i agree, how does that affect the 'working class' more than the 'middle class'. did you forget what we are even arguing about?
>>2802622>uhh source??? how would i get childcare for free? are you actually one of the people that thinks the upper class are more oppressed than people on benefits?Do you not understand how benefits work?
>let's talk about council tax by the way. the council tax on band A in a random london borough I picked is £1650 per year, in my shitty city in the middle of nowhere it's £1630 per year. a whopping £20 more per year for londoners, wow, and in exchange for that they get actually functional busses, the best cultural/etc attractions in the country, much better schools, and a fucking subway
also yes this is cultural capital, they have access to all that shit, you dont - should have been born in london where the upper class play fucko
>>2802637>Do you not understand how benefits work?yeah a lot more than you probably do, though i don't know that much about childcare specifically.
ok i looked it, up anyone who earns under £100k/year can get 30 free hours childcare for 38 weeks of the year for kids between 9 months and 4 years, so yeah technically your friend wouldn't be able to claim it but hardly only for people on benefits is it. are you seriously saying that people on 100 grand are the real victims here?
>>2802638i actually was and my family had to leave because they couldn't afford it : )
>>2802642well my assumption earlier was that you owned a house you lived in, not paying rent so il concede you're not middle class.
>ok i looked it, up anyone who earns under £100k/year can get 30 free hours childcare for 38 weeks of the year for kids between 9 months and 4 years, so yeah technically your friend wouldn't be able to claim it but hardly only for people on benefits is it. are you seriously saying that people on 100 grand are the real victims here?Im saying that the UKs wages are so shit that someone making 80k a year would still be claiming some form of benefit if they had a few kids.
>>2802644>well my assumption earlier was that you owned a house you lived in, not paying rent so il concede you're not middle class.great, thanks, though I don't know why you assumed that in the first place. by the way plenty of people who posture as 'working class' own houses as well.
Who are the top 3 Leftist, Marxist, Anarchist etc politicians, philosophers, and/or economists from the UK of the past 100 years?
>>2803005Hobsbawm, Harvey, not sure about the third
>>2803005Claudia Jones, John Maclean (died in 1923 lol edged out by 3 years), Steven Lukes
If I was more enterprising I'd make a substack and try to get some tax-cut chasing dickhead to pay me to push woke neoliberalism.
The reinterpreted Equality Act 2010 is the kind of thing a libertarian would invent to strawman the idea of equalities legislation. "What if bigots claim that they, too, are an oppressed minority? What happens when the state decides that as they're a bigger minority, and this is a democracy, their rights count for more than those of minorities?"
It's a really good opening for attacking state interference more generally without sounding like a selfish antisocial weirdo who just wants tax cuts and racism, by highlighting how good intentions + bastards like Keir Starmer + crooked network of insiders in control of the state = worse outcomes than if you just leave it to people who're only trying to get rich, who you can choose not to give money to. (And even when rich people are themselves crooked bastards: It's a lot easier to "just start your own" business - even a really big one like a bank - than it is to "just start your own supreme court"!)
If I was cooler and more dishonest, I'd call myself an anarchist…
>>2803155>bastards like Keir Starmer Laughed as that's one of the marketing strategies right wing pundits push on X, wherein they simultaneously divorce Starmer from any ideological faction (and contradictorily reverse this when it suits their ambit) whilst attacking him through nigh Orwellian comparisons cloaked in whatever rhetoric has the broadest appeal online
Truly a golden age
>>2803265Brits want Wes $treeting (Eyup Lovely best friend)
>>2803265Yes he's 100% gone and it's surprising he even lasted this long, but they're probably letting him stay so that he can take the blame for the deranged antisemitism laws
>>2803109Pollitt is a who and irrelevant. Not even the most relevant member of the Communist Party of his era.
>>2803265Yeah Andy Burnham is already on maneuvers apparently.
>>2803275Reform are sperging out because they are getting undercut to their right (by one of their former MPs!) and they also recognise the Greens are undercutting them themselves. It is masturatory politics designed for self-gratification.
>>2803290Oh, again I don’t know anything about the UKKK other than that it is the only vassal-state that also somehow has nukes, also everyone has yellow teeth. Also as an Amerikkkan the idea of a political party being able to die off when its policy is no longer popular is unheard of to me, like it’s worse than a one party state but better than a two party state.
An Israeli west bank settler did a school shooting on a Palestinian school today btw. Killed 2 people, a 14 year old child and the boy's father when he came to collect his son's body.
Posting it here because surprise surprise, the BBC refused to cover it at all. Why? We all know why.
Instead they're posting articles about how Starmer says protesting this kind of shit makes you an evil anti-semite and should be illegal.
>>2803290I don't get the psychology of someone who hesitate between Reform and Green
>>2803551Let's just say that they're not real deep thinkers, just want to vote against Labour
What's with the continuous seething about EA2010 in here? It doesn't protect the trans girl enough or what? It gives too much protection to the religious and not enough to the atheists?
>>2803551Hate Labour anti-tory and want to put a plague on both of their houses.
>>2803652- It has the dumb concept of a protected philosophical belief worthy of respect in a democratic society. A protected belief MUST be irrational. E.g. if you think climate change is real because of scientific evidence but would change your mind with new evidence you get no protection, if you think that even a star trek matter transformer rearranging every atom in a person's body still wouldn't let them change gender then you get protection. There is a get-out clause saying the belief must be "worthy of respect in a democratic society" but that just means they can veto religious tier faith in communism.
- The supreme court made up an interpretation of the EA2010 where trans women don't count as women despite the GRA2004 saying that those with a GRC are women for all legal purposes and the EA2010 clearly not intending to change this and some of the practical effect being to make a GRC almost worthless. (This is why the supreme court should be abolished. You cannot have a supreme court in a country where parliament is sovereign and if that sort of change is desired, it should come from parliament!)
- To implement it in practice the "Equalities and human rights commission" draws up guidance, but it has been stacked with right wing ghouls opposed to the very concepts of equalities and human rights, so it's utterly subverted. They're the ones who found that Labour were antisemitic but the Tories weren't islamophobic
- It had a public sector duty to reduce inequality but this was basically lol lmao'd out of practice. The Tories simply did not bring it into force and everyone else (e.g. Scotland/Wales) just added some token paperwork meaning it's been worthless to that end.
It is a mixture of genuinely badly drafted and misinterpreted into worthlessness.
>>2803672Is there anything that could replace this at least in theory or will Angloids be stuck with this till the end of times?
>>2803702In theory you could abolish or replace it at any time since the UK doesn't have a fixed constitution and parliament can legislate as it pleases, but in practice nobody's offering it.
I work as a debt adviser and I'm so tired, everyone is in debt, everyone is dealing with bailiffs constantly, and I have to fix it all, I'm never going to catch up with my caseload
>>2803741Currently skirting homelessness in a mental health ward, I'm half tempted to just call it a day and use my UC to buy a tent, a sleeping bag, and rucksack and just live on the outskirts of the current town I'm in
Know I'll be fucked by winter but I just do not give two shits anymore. I've tried to make a life for myself but each time it comes crashing down
>>2803758I'm sorry anon, are you on disability benefits? Try speak to a benefits adviser, sounds like you would have a good claim for PIP/UC LCWRA.That should in theory give you enough to live on in a little flat or house share. It's got to be better than being on the street. But yeah shit is fucked right now, this country is hard and unkind. It's not easy to live even if you're perfectly healthy.
>>2803758I'm homeless and live in a tent.
Its really quite pleasant once you get used to it.
For winter, you can get a thermal coat from primark which they sell in the season. I still have mine. My advice is to also get a mat between you and the floor since the cold will just come through the sleeping bag (I use a £9 yoga mat from Home Bargains). The best sleeping bags are the "4 season" ones you can get at Mountain Warehouse for £50. My tent is a 2-person one from Decathlon for £30. I am fortunate enough to have an isolated area I can sleep, which is really most of the struggle.
>>2803766Cheers. You ever had the police ask you to move on by the way?
>>2803764Still need to apply, I always thought PIP was for physical disabilities and that they'd shoot me down
>>2803796>You ever had the police ask you to move on by the way?Yes, but only once. Its not advisable to loiter in your sleeping area, otherwise people catch on.
>>2803796PIP isn't only physical no, I just got awarded it and I have a full time job (I had to go to tribunal though so it took 2 years?
>>2803766I hate this fucking country, most cities are handing out tents rather than housing people in BNBs now and people will still vote for Labour.
>>2803805I think a lot of people aren't going to vote Labour
>>2803806no one living in a tent will hopefully
>half the thread admits to living in a tent
No wonder you are all so unreasonable, I'm literally arguing with the homeless and insane.
>>2804014Worst of all, they're proles just like me and you
>>2804020I'm a prole in a sea of Lumpen
>>2803289Who would you say is more relevant
>>2804014which one are you, homeless or insane?
>>2804026I'm well adjusted proletarian, good set of sensible investmants and a full work history.
>>2804084stupid for him to have retweeted it, even stupider for him to apologise
>>2804087Legitimately confused as to how his media team could have accomplished this, as it vindicates the idea of their sheer incompetence as a party
>>2804084media doing its job as usual, crush the left.
>>2804091glowies probably had a word with him to sabotage himself otherwise even worse things would happen
>>2804091I mean it was only a retweet, not like they went and made a full statement on it.
>>2804106They are quite literally in an embittered deadlock with the prevailing establishment regarding its succession, ex post facto there was no other interpretation of that tweet than as an attack on the police officers doing their job.
It's ridiculous that whoever was managing his account retweeted it in the first place
>>2804110I mean it's correct that the cops beat someone, and kicked him in the head, they were in the wrong, but of course the average retard voter is just like 'hurr they are protecting terrorists'
>>2804025Well
>>2804052 Dutt as the comrade said, along with Arthur Horner, Harry McShane & Wal Hannington as co-founders/leaders of the NUWM, Shapurji Saklatvala, and Willie Gallacher.
>>2804084Not really, I think its more his general exposure, he's not a very trustworthy figure. I think those comments where the least of it (Though they where tarded)
>>2804099Polanski is not left wing, He was a Lib Dem during 2015-2019 , aka during peak of Corbyn. No one left wing would do that shit
Even as a Lib Dem he was friednly with the right wing faction of the Liberals, and only left after not being promoted quickly enough. He joined the green because they would promote him faster.
Anyone who falls for him is too stupid to be invovled politically. (Aka most of the British Pseudo-left)
Enjoy your tit hypno illetarate Lib dem idpol tard, repeating warmed up talking points.
I wish only defeat and misery on this wretched falsfier and huckster.
>>2804129What I meant in 'crush the left' isnt the actual left, thats long crushed, only the furthest left viable option - which is the greens.
>>2804129>Anyone who falls for him is too stupid to be invovled politicallyokay, you're right, he's a careerist freak, totally untrustworthy, but what's the alternative? voting for TUSC who only have a decades long record of failure? even if we get a softer zionist in power that's still better than the deranged fascists we have now.
>>2804146Theres no benefit to the greens, there a minoritarian party, won't win national eleections ,shit at running councils (Ask Brighton) and couldn't hold together a goverment if they where elected. It puts limited pressure on Labour to do what, sligthly bigger tax and spend?
We need those who are against the system to loose all hope in these disgusting falsafiers, (even voting for them) no comprimise with these people.
>>2804129Serious question - do you believe it is possible for someone's political views to change and develop over the course of 10 years?
>>2804164how do you know they couldn't win national elections? if the tories can collapse then so can labour. we could see a new twoparty dynamic between reform and greens which would again be better than what we have now.
>It puts limited pressure on Labour to do what, sligthly bigger tax and spend?I mean that would be a great thing if so. That would save thousands of lives probably.
voooooooting tomorrow
>>2804169not if they never had any in the first place. someone who said they deserve to be an MP even though they don't live in the area, because they're a 'gay jewish renter' deserves to be stomped on like the snake they are
no elections for me yet i'll probaby stay up into the early hours watching the results roll in
>>2804182well i guess watching it is the only way to find out
>>2804170They can't win national elections. If they did want to win national elections they would have to just become the labour party.
If you get stuck in this cycle of begging and putting your energies towards minor reforms, you may as well join the Labour party REAL TALK.
People need to get out of this mindset, or we will be stuck here forever.
>>2804171For whom?
>>2804169Serious Awnser, Yes but they shouldn't be leader of the left wing movement in Britain. 10 years after being a tit hypno therapist and 6 years after being a lid dem.
Listen to a long form interview, he doesn't know shit and his position changes every week.
>>2804182Glowvara getting desperate. Twink death in media form.
Polanski is a literal con artist huckster installed by his mossad handlers to pre-emptively neuter any left-wing opposition to our mossad-handled PM and zogslave Reform opposition. Socialists joining or supporting the Greens are just lining up to collect their fell for it again awards as they spend the next few years defending Polanski's 'ecosocialism' as he repeatedly sides with against his own supporters, expelling them as 'antisemites' just like Corbyn and people did in Labour. At least Corbyn had the excuse of being a feckless, weak man advised by Morning Star melts, Polanski has no such excuse having participated in the Corbyn ratfucking himself at the time.
If you're going to vote at all vote for socialist candidates standing in your area, whether that's TUSC, CPB, WPGB, etc
Even if the greens couldn't win national elections they'd be a godsend for killing the world's shittiest not socdem not socialist party. A national developmentalist party that managed to flunk even that and bequeathed is the current freakshow of 3.5 nations in a trenchcoat as the biggest one succumbs to dementia.
>>2804193noobdy I'm spoiling my ballot and then saying Reform at the exit poll to help spice up the whole neck and neck event.
>>2804193>They can't win national elections. If they did want to win national elections they would have to just become the labour party.idiotic to say that. corbyn got far more votes than starmer. Labour doesn't have to be evil Zionist rightoids. It is possible to actually have a semi decent left wing party in charge. difficult, sure, but not impossible.
as for begging for minor reforms, I mean yeah I get what you're saying but again, what is the alternative. if I vote TUSC it's just throwing my vote away, at least it's theoretically possible that the greens could win councillors.
>>2804266exactly. labour needs to die.
"actual liberals" are the main thing missing from British politics. Even the lib dems just want bans and crackdowns and brutality and war.
>>2804339>Nobody is a weirdo yankee lolbert wah wah wahWe shipped all of you antisocial cunts over the ocean for a reason.
>>2804206Polanski sabotaged Your Party by, simply being competent compared to Jeremy Corbyn lol.
>>2804360Expect Polanki to apologise for these candidates soon and expel them
>>2804350>thinking that maybe you have a right to protest = yankee lolbertokay Keir.
>>2804706Don't do your back in shifting those goalposts mate.
>>2804722Bans, crackdowns, brutality, war. That was the itemised list of things liberals should dislike which no so called liberals in the UK dislike. Please identify at least two of those things that you think are good and opposed only by yank libertarians.
Marx on English common sense:
<The mass of the English people have a sound aesthetical common sense. They have. an instinctive hatred against everything motley and ambiguous, against bats and Russellites [Jehovah's Witnesses]. […] it hates the oligarchy which has ruled over England for more than a century, and by which the People is excluded from the direction of its own affairs.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/08/06.htmTo my fellow elite theorists, do you think you oppose racism primarily because (i) racism is stupid, or (ii) stupid people are racist? I just saw some graffiti which misspelled "no foreigners" and it reminds me of our earlier discussions upon "cultural capital" and class; that the racist is a subject before he is an object, such as the slogan: "Reform voters - people with 4 teeth standing up for people with 6 yachts". The racist is always a person of the lower ranks, not of a more disguised character. I see the same in the US, where the Southern accent is used to demonstrate stupidity and rural backwardness. Malcolm X speaks of these immanent class dynamics between the honest conservative and dishonest liberal; that the inherent whiteness of both is present, but one is self-denying, and so is more insulting. So then, the person who "says it how it is" is always obtuse, but is their failure in the form, or content of their communication? I would claim that the high status liberal cares much more about HOW things are said, than WHAT is said, and so political correctness via virtue signalling acts as a sort of class war - whether against the lumpen, or proletariat. So, racism is distateful BEFORE it is incorrect, and this is the way in which its content is determined.
>>2804852>do you think you oppose racism primarily because (i) racism is stupid, or (ii) stupid people are racist?I do it because it allows me to smash MENA pussy
>>2804855Something tells me they prefer racist chads to anti-racist sub-5s.
>>2804858You just keep the racism in the bedroom along with chokes and slaps duh
Marx on the political parties of Great Britain, 1852:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/08/06.htmhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/08/25.htmTories: Open representatives of the aristocracy
Peelites and Whigs: Medium between aristocracy and bourgeoisie
Liberals: Open representatives of the bourgeoisie
Chartists: Open representatives of the working class
Only later do the Liberal Party form, becoming the LibDems later on, and Labour, which then becomes the main opponent of the Tories.
Marx praising English literature, such as in Dickens and Brontë, exposing the hollowness of the English Middle Class:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/08/01.htmGood to know that Marx consumed the fiction of his day.
>>2804852The issue of racism is a moot point; it has no definite basis in the natural existence of man and is simply an historically imposed condition that is reproduced within human sociality. The racist is neither smart nor dim, but a coagulate of contemporary forces, chiefly of imperialism.
I disagree with the racist because of my class position; one strives for the subjugation of others through political reaction, the other for the emancipation of mankind from said subjugation.
>>2804916Worst answer ever.
>>2804852Is it really so wrong to dislike stupid people credibility signalling their stupidity? I agree that the content is wrong for
how it is said ahead of what is said, but we mustn't confuse the inverse: what is said is also wrong.
I must confess that to me, being unable or unwilling to disguise one's bigotry bothers me more than holding the prejudice. I have a begrudging respect for those who can couch theirs in the right vague terms (although it's paid back a thousandfold in loathing when they slip up: to see a smart person make an idiot of themselves is more painful than an idiot being an idiot)
When it comes to the Malcolm X analogy you must consider practicalities. The liberal really does want lesser evils: white flight or subtle prejudices may be bad, it may be pernicious compared to open racism, but it's infinitely less evil than mass deportations on live TV. Trump's second term has been one long worked example in why for all their evils, "liberal elites" clearly aren't as bad as
all the alternatives. Some really do just openly promote barbarism.
>>2804948I agree that liberals are the good guys, but it is a discourse founded upon an inherent elitism which is not present in the conservative, by relative class position. The bigot sees other races as competitive, while liberals see other races as non-competitive. It is a "luxury belief" to be anti-racist, as they say.
>>2805094They're crypto Jews.
>>2805124I thought the trans were the jews of gender though
>>2805094>70 000 deaths from a population of 2.1 million is not genocideChuckled; the indiscriminate murder of civilians is fine because there simply isn't enough dead
>>2805094Didn't even read the original tweet lmao
Rowling pearl clutching about infatada chants, this country is absolutely stacked
>>2805139There's no way that's a real quote, fucking screaming out my arse
>We only lie in small ways >>2805144shes on video saying it in the link lol
>>2805148Imagine being so extreme your feminist talking points align with Hitler's
What are these people even protesting
>>2805152Lesbian politics has always been schizophrenic and antisocial; I am reminded of the paedophilic activism of people like Gayle Rubin, Camille Paglia and Germaine Greer.
>>2805172That’s because all sexual minorities are a result of mental and social defects resulting from class society, you can’t find any evidence of sexual deviancy during the age of primitive communism, it’s also why they won’t exist during advanced industrialized communism
>>2805177>sexual minorities are a result of mental and social defects>they won’t exist during advanced industrialized communismSo, the more gays in society, the worse society is?
>>2805177That's so Fucking stupid gay sex had been observed by all kinds of animals in the wild . It's not at all a social construct.
>>2805182Yes, i say this as a gay, it’s a result of neoliberal alienation
Thatcher: there is no such thing as gay people
>>2805186Homosexuality never existed among peasants and working people because in the past you NEEDED to have children and pass on whatever property you did have
>>2805191There are only gay individuals and families
>>2805187Ah, but here's a riddle - if sexual deviance is a type of social misrecognition or alienation, then how can we explain homosexuality in animals?
>>2805196Why do we need to explain it when people aren’t animals?
>>2805196Simple: animals don't have sex with humans
>>2805200That’s because Welsh aren’t people
>>2805153She was not a lesbian she took more dick than the average gay guy during her chemsex orgy. But she have good drip.
>>2805139They seem more aligned with Likud than with irrelevant wignats boogeyman actually. That woman sound mentally challenged.
>>2805199Well, first of all, people are animals; homo sapiens, to be exact.
And the secondary point is that homosexuality denotes two things: (i) a set of behaviours and (ii) subjective identity. For example, you can be "gay" without having sex, and have gay sex, without being "gay" (masturbation being a primary autohomosexuality). I agree that our subjectivity is socially conditioned (hence why there are suddenly so many trans women today, but not yesterday), but the behaviour itself is clearly immanent to animal existence.
>>2805204Guys have been sucking cock since as long as we've had cocks and mouths
>>2805201Those weren’t marriages or permanent partnerships but short term love affairs you would think about during married settled life
>>2805203Lesbians are known to be whores for men.
She was suspected of being a lesbian by her own fanily iirc.
>>2805206>goalpost shiftingthe same accounts talk about poly-lgbt relationships that equated the entire household btw
>>2805208Almost like living in a hellhole like Russia with abundant vodka would encourage anti social behavior who knew?
>>2805217Its also almost like pre-feudalism this is just how people lived without much fuss till some king comes along and decides he needs to make sodomy laws to get better trade deals with the west
>>2805205Why limit homosexuality to homosexuals?
This is your conservatism.
>>2805219No you just died from whatever disease came from anal sex before AIDS
>>2805222That happened with or without getting bummed anyway you jewish nigger
>>2805223Classic gay racism
Mental how Your Party have just imploded
On the gay question, homosexual identity is a 19th century invention, and transsexual identity is a 20th century invention:
<Karl Heinrich Ulrichs (28 August 1825 – 14 July 1895) was a German lawyer, jurist, journalist, writer, and proponent of Living Latin. He is today regarded as a pioneer of sexology and the modern gay rights movement. Ulrichs has been described as the "first gay man in world history"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Heinrich_Ulrichs<Lili Ilse Elvenes (28 December 1882 – 13 September 1931), better known as Lili Elbe, was a Danish painter, transgender woman, and one of the earliest recipients of gender-affirming surgery (then called sex reassignment surgery).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe>>2805237Did Issac Newton invent gravity or did he discover it?
>>2805240You are confusing the subject and object, hence why I emphasise "identity". No one called themselves gay before 1800; thats a fact.
>>2805241no, he discovered it - no one 'invented' homosexuality, we made sociological universities and then described things as they are, they existed prior to being discovered.
>>2805245we just used other words for it, 'queer' '3rd gender' nonsense ect, all observed in tribal societies.
>>2805247He uncovered it, Newton was the Alex Jones of his age
>>2805252my point was the notion of inventing gravity is as arrogant as thinking someone invented homosexuality
>>2805251There is no proof in world history that people were exclusively gay until after 1800.
>>2805247Do you think there have always been transgender people in these proportions, as well?
>>2805257Well I mean if we're ignoring my point as to how the structures of sociology have only been created in the last few centuries, we can even look at tribal societies in parallel today that have homosexual and what we would understand to be non-binary or trans people living within them, all having never been exposed to western LGBT ideas.
>>2805260But this is hocus pocus bollocks, you understand?
Why are humans as a species so gay and transgender compared to other primates?
And in case its misunderstood; I'm not saying that our cultural alienation is a bad thing, I am just looking at the causes of these things. People don't choose to become gay in a society which creates gay people - but I dont think the homosexualisation of men sufficiently occured in previous epochs, even if there were immanences, such as Eunuchs or the priestesses of Cybele (who were men who took on the role of women in their worship).
>>2805285I think its tolerance between peoples likely always was variable, some people would have rejected it wholesale back in tribal society as well - I think back then though the outcome would be exile and finding a group that engages in it (or they just club you to death)
The romans where commonly understood to engage in lots of gay sex, it just had class dynamics and mostly manifested in records as abuses of power and people in power having personal femboys. Its more to do with who has been able to write and what recorded histories where able to be carried into the modern age than anything.
>>2805291>exileBut isn't this the deepest mystery? Why would people be homophobic in the first place? Yet they always were, and are.
>The romans where commonly understood to engage in lots of gay sexYes, but it wasn't "gay" in the way we understand it today, and much of the gay sex was between men and boys, who still pertained to a heteronormative discourse of tops/bottoms (gay marriage being the pinnacle of this conformist heterosexualisation of the gay man).
The English are just a specifically transphobic culture, I blame it on the Norman colonization. This then bled into the Anglo-Saxon culture in Scotland as well, though nationalists are trying to fight it off.
>>2805297>But isn't this the deepest mystery? Why would people be homophobic in the first place? Yet they always were, and are.people are kinda retarded they've always killed each other over stupid shit being gay is just one of the 10's of millions of reasons someone might want to kill you
>Yes, but it wasn't "gay" in the way we understand it today, and much of the gay sex was between men and boys, who still pertained to a heteronormative discourse of tops/bottoms (gay marriage being the pinnacle of this conformist heterosexualisation of the gay man).Sure but we only live in the current moment in a society, drawing comparisons historically is always going to be muddled because they exist within there unique social contexts just as LGBT right now do, it will also change.
Also the marriage lgbt+ thing is more to do with the additional legal rights given to het married couples, all recent social constructs and dialetic
>>2805177you have things entirely backwards. on the contrary, insofar as they are modern phenomena, they are signs of progress, of development rather than degeneration. actually-existing communism will be the faggiest thing you can imagine. the gayest most exhibitionist poofter of a furry you can imagine will be considered deeply conservative compared to the things we will get up to under communism.
>>2805285attributing it to "neoliberal alienation" certainly makes it sound like a bad thing. (in reality one thing history has shown is that people
like to be "alienated" to a certain extent. we love the stardew valley fantasy of "living in a close-knit community", but the bulk of us flee the countryside for the anonymity of the city as soon as we can. we flee even the city, rejecting those nearby to argue instead with half-like-minded people on leftypol.org.)
i would argue that it isn't even on the whole true that LGBT status correlates with alienation: straight people seem to suffer much greater alienation than LGBT types, since LGBT types have an obvious thing they can latch on to for a sense of community and purpose. as good neurotic left-liberal types they're naturally always whining about it while the alienated rightoid loser pretends to have some sense of connection to his countrymen, but that's just superficial aesthetics.
>>2805304someone had a good theory once that it's because of our class-caste system. if sex is mutable, why not class? if class is mutable, what then for the natural superiority of the upper class newspaper columnist, or the moralistic chip-on-their-shoulder of the well compensated but silly-accented newspaper columnist who uses their dad's occupation to decry leftists?
>>2805317>People have always been retardedThis seems rather reductive.
>Also the marriage lgbt+ thing is more to do with the additional legal rights given to het married couples, all recent social constructs and dialeticSure, but we also see how gay couples adopt kids and even go to church. It is a heterosexual lifestyle.
>>2805328Its pretty accurate though, I bet many Ug's got there skull bashed in while they where sleeping because they took Grugs shiny pebble
>>2805326>Signs of progressYou have shit for brains
>>2805326You are so retarded and illiterate. PLEASE EXIT THIS FORUM
PEOPLE DIDN'T MOVE TO THE CITY TO CHASE ALIENATION YOU FUCKING MONGOLOID,
ITS
THE
FUCKING
MATERIAL
CONDITIONS
>>2805237There were trans mummies. The surgery didn't exist but the identity did
>>2805192And you know this because we have such a thorough and accurate history of peasants right. Read History as Mystery by Parenti and you'll see how untrue our perceptions of peasantry in general is.
Argument finder initiated
Enter post number: 2805335
Scanning for argument in post >>>>2805335 ….
ERROR in line 3: "$args": Type cannot be null.
>>2805342>The identity existedOkay, so I ask again, why are humans as a species uniquely gay and trans, and also happen to exist in cultures which alienate their essence? Its clear that this misrecognition of one's sex is a result of social conditions, not natural conditions.
>>2805326>actually-existing communism will be the faggiest thing you can imagine.So the liberal west was more communist than the USSR, and is currently more communist than anywhere else on earth?
>attributing it to "neoliberal alienation" certainly makes it sound like a bad thingThat wasn't me (since "neoliberal" is such a pseud term), but its clear that these cultural affects are a result of alienation in general.
>people like to be "alienated" Yes, I agree, which is why I find Marxism to be a dangerous doctrine. The fundamentalist Marxist cannot believe in art or culture.
>straight people seem to suffer much greater alienation than LGBT typesWhich is why so many of them adapt into a queer lifestyle instead. Can't find a gf? Be the gf; etc. But this then proves the point entirely, wouldnt you say? If we had a coercive culture of heterosexual union rather than heterosexual disunion, there would be less queers, no?
>>2805340yeah material conditions like the countryside being a boring shithole. people are
still moving to the city, and they're definitely doing it to chase alienation! the NHS has to offer ridiculously good pay and conditions to get people to move to remote scottish islands because people would rather take less pay for worse working conditions but live somewhere interesting and well connected - that is a material condition! you can't just wave "~material conditions~" around like a buzzword to make reality go away.
the history of civilization is the history of urbanization.
>>2805304That's still an idiotic theory. The reason is your journos, NGOs and PMC are full of second wave feminists who hate men and see trans women as cheater trying to escape the gynopanopticon gayhell. It's not about da Normands or wathever ethic gripe you have with my LION 🦁 ancestors uygha, stop diffaming us.
>>2805309I didnt know the cult of the Galles and Kybele made it this far north. Interesting.
It's funny because the early indo-european worshippers of Cybele were continental Celts freshly arrived in Anatolia and came into contact with goddess, she is likely a pre indo european deity. Long after the continental Celts were displaced/ourbred from the region the cult up travelling to the insular Celt of the British isles under Roman yoke.
>>2805345You're also an autistic unfunny cunt to boot
this just asking questions troll is tiring chat, lets talk about other issues like if Keir is Queer
>>2805353Herodotus in his Histories (400 BCE) documents an identical Scythian priestcraft called the Enarees, who worshipped Celestial Aphrodite, or the Great Mother (the same deity as Cybele):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enaree >>2805360Isnt it proven with the rent boy thing?
>>2805360Or the practical nonexistence of Your Party
>>2805373I am proud to say that I never believed in it.
Day one doubter. 🙂
>>2805373I was calling your party a pointless corbyn retirement vanity project from day 1
>>2805384Corbyn reminds me of the type of leftist who tries to literally say shit like 'I dont want to be political' while engaging in a political reality that requires he be political.
He went too big tent and lost sight of any coherent ideology.
Homosexuality in men is the ultimate form of misogyny, you’re literally so misogynistic you think men with their assholes to a better job at a woman’s role sexually and socially than women could with their vaginas, to the point where they call it a boypussy
>>2805373The way it flopped so hard really has to make you wonder about 2017
>>2805373Are you really surprised at Corbyns incompetence anon?
>>2805362I thought Aphrodites and Cybele were completely different deities? I know pagan cultures liked to fusion their gods with other though.
I believe there are several ancient greek statues of Aphrodites depicting her with a penis i remember seeing some of them during a schoolk trip at the Louvre, i am not talking about the sleeping hermaphroditus statue.
>>2805405"Celestial" Aphrodite is different from the regular Aphrodite. I first heard of her in Plato's Symposium. Celestial Aphrodite is The Great Mother.
>>2805398This is literally Camille Paglia's thesis in "Sexual Personae"
A pretty good read, but under-edited.
>>28054009 years ago, completely different time. Historical conditions have heightened to the point that the proto fascism of Reform and Restore have formed in an avowed nationalism with no socialist counter.
Corbyn in as much appears as a political dinasour from an age of the two party system and part of the yesteryear
>>2805446It's cynical opportunism operating behind the dysfunction of nationalism, this photo inasmuch proves that as compared to its opposite.
reform are just rebranded tories, even the extremely online british right wingers think they arent right wing enough or are too nice to the bames
all the actual fashy people are voting for restore and rupert lowe, he has no chance but thats what is happening
>>2805446fascism was never about racism, genuinely dumb
>>2805456Yep; its funny to see the dogs eat the scraps - one minute theyre behind farage, next minute theyre calling him a sellout. im sure rupert will become a "traitor" soon enough.
>>2805439>proto-fascismin what sense? they are at this point right wing demagogues who are dysfunctional since all they stand for is a general vibe
Nothing can fix Britain, not even communist revolution or military coup or overthrowing the monarchy
>>2805471ᴉuᴉlossnW:
- Republican who cucks to the monarchy anyway
- Anti-racist who cucks to Hitler anyway
Where are the real strong men when you need them?
>>2805472Hardly, the document they released a few months back regarding the creation of an anti migrant task force alone speaks to the level of violence they plan to inflict.
>>2805461>>2805454>>2805452If facism isn't racist, and britain can'd declare war on anyone than what is it your fearmongering about, setting up syndicalist
comitee's?
Reform if elected will litterally just be a more imcompetent thatcherite tory party.
People use fearmongering and exageration of this kind, to force you into reformist parties like Labour or the greens. Its a liberal frame
>>2805491this of course depends on the idea that they'll actually implement it, that they will get elected, and that "violence = fascism"
>>2805502
>its all fascism other than parties that will abolish the current state of thin
Then facism is a meaningless word and you should stop using it, as it means nothing.
>>2805496Every current mainstream party is fascist, only a candidate that is a marxist or anarchist who will abolish the current state of things isnt.
>>2805496I don't disagree and I don't fear-mong about immigration.
What worries me most is that the tories and reform are puppets of the US who want us to die for Israel.
>>2805515Your defition makes the almost entire world and all history facist. AKA a word that means nothing.
>>2805520I can see a direct thread between the royal family, fascism, mosley and todays government pretty clearly actually. From selling records to Mosley associated palantir and the royal family hanging out with super pedo Epstein and Starmer appointing Mandleson its very clear whos in charge.
>>2805501Foolhardy to assume they won't. They also plan to abrogate parliamentary oversight, implement terror charges for Palestinian protestors, and create a British bill of rights.
>>2805529Your shifitng goalposts, because you've been found out as a charlatan and your anti-marixst anylsis can't hold up under basic questioning.
>>2805430>>2805495On misogyny in particular are Paglia's comments that the shift from Venus Figurines to Greek Statues represents the birth of the concept of beauty, which has a homoerotic aesthetic. The elites of Greece were also known to engage in homosexual fraternisation, while the woman was subordinated as a weakling; while after Christianity, weakness is worshipped as moral purity (also, Camille is a Nietzschean).
>>2805539>Camille is a Nietzscheanlmao, anything but actual historicism
>>2805529NATO and NASA are also Fascist architectures, designed to fight the cold war
>>2805535OH NO NOT THE PARLIMENTARY SCRUITINY,
TERROR CHARGES FOR PALESTINIANS , SOMETHING THATS DEFINTLY NOT CURRENTLY HAPPENING
OH LORD NOT A BILL OF RIGHTS
>>2805537Im literally providing direct evidence the upper class of the UK love fascism and have referenced the control an actual son of the father of British fascism has over our government plus the corruption inherent with the Mandelson scandal, this is all material.
>>2805547There is still some semblance of accountability within Parliament, hence the furore regarding Starmer and Mandelson
They plan to completely abrogate that in order to purge political enemies (hence Truss and Co running around calling everything 'rot') and consolidate power once elected. The future history of this period upon their election will be written as a turning point in the explicit development of fascism
>>2805553>>2805520Please read the post and actually respond.
Also no that is not material and very poor evidance for your thesis. Please explain how this makes the SNP facist, as they don't want to abolish capatalism and are therefore facist under your definition.
>>2805562>>2805547Likewise the home office were forced to step back regarding the classification of Palestinian Action as a terrorist organisation.
Something Reform plan to not only reverse, but utilise in order to crush dissent
>>2805535do you trust people as incompetent as them to implement it without just destroying themselves? i don't, and if it came down to it i guarantee you pretty much every party would shoot it down
>>2805574They plan to do away with what is seen as a European HRA and rewrite it according to their grubby little ends
>>2805570from what i see, reform councils full of random zoomers and boomers are already self-destructing
>>2805580exactly the point sir, if they can't even manage municipal government, how the hell do you expect them to be competent enough to not just blow everything up, or even if like monkeys at a typewriter they manage to attempt this, why would any of the parties with really only the even greater hardline parties, or the tories, not vote it down?
>>2805583But isnt an issue that we dont have a sufficient deep state of civil servants to cover up their tracks? Or do you think the establishment will succeed?
>>2805585the establishment would not seriously condone or support anything but a parliamentary dictatorship like the current system, in part because it resolves tension and allows for moderate change, thus they will almost certainly win, the same is true with the average civil servant, would they entertain an incompetent or self-destructive government like a reform one?
>>2805587Do you have any concerns about the possibility of joing the war in Ukraine or Iran?
>>2805597britain has showed no interest in joining them directly, only as proxies
Do you think a reform government would last a decade like the Tories? I don’t, it’s gonna keep wildly swinging every four years until nuclear death
>>2805577most of the SNP's conservatives flounced and those that didn't are the kind who'll at worst abstain. they're not fascists, they're worthless rudderless careerists, the very embodiment of late liberal democracy. Scottish Labour are infinitely more fascist than the SNP and have been for a long time.
>>2805747i doubt it'd even last 2 years
Reminder Laura Kuenssberg is a nepo baby and was born into the aristocracy. Literally from the top 0.0001% of bourgeois elites.
Her paternal great-grandfather goes right back to Charlemagne and lived in a literal castle, specifically Finstergrün Castle in Salzburg, Austria.
Her maternal grandfather was a Scottish Lord and High Court Judge.
Her great uncle was the last British colonial governor of Nigeria.
Her sister is an executive at oil company Shell and is the former Tory ambassador to Mozambique under Cameron and May.
BREAKING: Neil McEvoy has reportedly locked himself in the Senedd and is advising only the Mab Darogan can order him to stand down or else he will commit seppuku
ARTHUR GERNOW was a CORNISH man
BREAKING: RHUN AP IORWERTH IS Y MAB DAROGAN AND HE HAS ENLISTED NEIL MCEVOY'S SOUTH CARDIFF WARBANDS AND HE HAS RISEN LLEWELYN THE GREAT, OWAIN GLYNDWR AND KING ARTHUR AND THEY ARE NOW RIDING THROUGH THE NIGHT KILLING EVERY ANGLO-SAXON (reform voter).
American here, can someone explain to me the difference between Reform UK and Restore Britain? It seems like they have basically the same platforms
>>2805993reform's the original party, restore is an even more hardline splinter with no pretense of being a normal party
>>2805993Reform is basically British MAGA.
Restore is a splinter group that thought Reform wasn't extreme or racist enough.
Think of Reform voters like the type of boomer who watches FOX NEWS every evening, likes facebook AI slop, attends Trump rallies, posts on Twitter about "saving the country" and genuinely believes Trump/Farage will lower their bills.
Restore are basically like groypers on all issues except they're fully pro-Israel. They're more the kind of person who would attent a Klan meeting, probably equates all LGBT people to paedophiles, and will start seig heiling in public after 2 beers.
>>2805992Er gwaetha pawb a phopeth…
>>2805916Gets paid 400k a year too.
This morning, when dawn's rosy fingers touch the police blockade surrounding the Senedd, and the light comes through the buildings great glass panes, a single man will appear beyond the investment. The police, stirred from a night of sitting and waiting, will call for him to return, and that he is in danger from the Propel loyalists occuping the building. But the man does not heed, and walks straight through the front doors. A gunman tells him to freeze, but instead the man just looks at him, and some expression on his face leaves the terrorist stunned. The old, enigmatic man pushed open the doors to the central chamber, where he finds Neil McEvoy kneeling, tanto in hand and ready to disembowel himself, while his wife is standing behind with a katana, ready to behead him.
"Who… are you?", Neil asks, distracted from seppuko
"You know who I am", the old man says.
"I… I think I must", Neil responds. "I do know you. But for a moment I thought you might have been someone else. Someone… someone I was waiting for."
"I'm Anthony Slaughter, leader of the Green Party", the man says, striding over. He takes Neil's hand and pulls him to his feet, the tanto slipping from the radical's grip and clattering to the floor
"I was mistaken", Neil sighed. "Nobody will come and save Wales. The Palantir ninjas have taken out all other major politicians, and martial law will soon be declared. The South Cardiff direct democracy is lost…"
"No, you are not mistaken. Give me your hand", Anthony says calmly, like an old, wise, sage. "Do you know why they call us the Green Party?"
"N-no?", Neil stutters, but gives Anthony a handshake
A power surges between them. Neil doesn't know if his eyes are betraying him, but he sees green vines snaking out of the Green Party leader's sleeve. They let go, and Anthony shows his palm.
"This is why", he says, and a daffodil blooms from his hand. The moment is amazing; everyone in the room is enthralled by the magic.
"I… I understand now", Neil breaths. They all did. "The Green Party… It is the Party of all that is Green… it is the true Party of Wales… patriots were in control all along…"
"We have been, ever since 1485", Anthony says. "And now, it's time."
All together, they stride from the building, and into a lovely morning. A wave of power turns South Wales Police into skeletons, the army all surrenders to him as if he were Napoleon, and patriots seize control all over Prydain. Anthony Slaughter goes to Tintagel to be crowned, where spectres can be seem behind him, gliding over the water. These were Owain Glyndwr, Llewelyn the Great, and King Arthur.
Kinda wish I were a Celt rather than an Angloid dog ngl
>>2805998>>2805993boomers and chinlets saw too many brown people starting to join reform so they defected
>>2805446 >>2806033restore was founded by a pakistani though
>>2806035No it wasn't? I think you're thinking of Advance UK which is an even less relevant splinter group from Reform.
seems like reform are giga raping labour, and greens are underperforming.
count down to kieth starmer resignation i guess
is it joever for britain?
>>2806067They’re Kier Starving
>>2806064Greens will get fucked by the two party system but hopefully the number of second place finishes where they beat Labour will help them in the next elections as people will 'tactical vote' for them instead of Liebour
>>2806064It litteraly did not have to go this way for Labour this is just sad. I said it on a previous thread but never ever ever ever let your party get subverted by radfems and likudniks this is pretty much a death sentence.
SNP harbored the former in their party and they made it collapse, DNC bowed to likud and they lost a presidential election against a retarded pedophile criminal.
These people are to politics and culture what termites are to a tree.
With the ever increasing rise in popularity for Reform UK, and to a lesser extent Restore Britain, in opinion polling, and with the on-going local elections translating those opinions into councillors, councils and seats in the devolved parliaments of the United Kingdom - now is a more pertinent time than ever to discuss what I believe to be the solution to this issue once the Left pulls its finger out and finally grasps power.
We need to put Reform supporters in re-education camps. This is what I unironically believe.
If we follow basic methodology on what defines a human being, and compare it to how Reform voters and supporters conduct themselves on public forums such as in social media comments, whilst attending "protests" (read: "I Don't Like Brown People Marches"), and in their private lives, it becomes increasingly likely that you will declare these people subhuman, thoughtless, soulless maniacs operating like some sort of demonic hivemind directly controlled by paedophiles, and that they have essentially forfeited their right to society through their actions, both outside and inside of the polling booth.
Throughout the local elections campaign I have been forced to witness countless comments from Reform-aligned individuals. These comments are almost never pleasant, and some are thoroughly criminal. They will range from calling an individual they disagree with a retard, nonce, paki (or paki-lover), or any other slur they can think of, to genuine threats on people's lives for daring not support their paedophile overlords, whilst ironically, calling you a paedophile for not supporting them. In extreme cases, women candidates for left-wing or centrist parties have faced a slurry of rape threats from these individuals. Unrelenting bile spilling from their putrid gammon lips.
The Reform mob will decry any legitimate criticism of their candidates, and baselessly accuse the left of inciting violence against them for daring to criticise them. I would invite you to re-read the previous paragraph where I go into detail describing their actions towards people they do not like, to see how supremely hypocritical this line of thinking truly is.
In reality, as you can probably imagine, it is Reform who wish to incite violence upon all of us. They are nothing more than cattle at this point. You could almost feel sorry for them if you could consider them human.
The reduction of your political enemies as subhuman may come across as fascisstic to many - and I do understand the concern. But when an entire, large subset of the general public are this utterly fucked and corrupted by hatred, suffering from political retardation of the highest degree and harbouring a genuine disdain towards human life, it is not unrealistic to consider the fact that they must be placed in mandatory re-education to treat the chronic disease that has poisoned their minds into becoming subservient to evil billionaire child rapists.
The actions of Reform supporters when faced with the right to vote in a liberal democratic election directly translates into sustained, widespread misery and dysfunction across a country which currently holds seventy million people. All of them either knew what they were voting for, or should've been considered mentally challenged and therefore not allowed to mark their cross. When this behaviour inevitably repeats itself in a general election, seventy million people, including the entirety of Reform mob, will face untold socioeconomic destruction the likes of which has never been seen before in the United Kingdom's political history since the birth of Thatcherism. Unlike those who did not vote for such misery, the Reform mob will be excluded from the sympathy.
If you're wondering what the consequences of their actions might look like - under a potential, and now sadly likely Reform government, assuming the logical conclusions to most of their policies:
We will see the establishment of camps across the nation to hold, likely torture and inevitably deport "illegal migrants", a term which will be twisted to mean anyone non-White by 2028.
We will see the utter destruction of our public services to the point where we become the world's first fourth-world country rivaling Argentina under Milei, as all our bullshit capital is siphoned directly to billionaires (and Israel) while we subside over a new era of generalised poverty. rivaling that of serfdom in Tsarist Russia.
We will see our rights, human, democratic or otherwise, stripped away with glee under the guise of again, punishing brown people for daring to exist on our Green and Pleasant land.
There is, however, an alternative that can and should play out. A victory for the Left in this country, which should immediately result in an era of punitive punishment for the entire political right, with rehabilitation to be considered secondary to this. Considering a majority of Reform/Restore supporters have a complete disdain towards human life as previously explored, and support the destruction of human rights legislation - their claims to these protected rights should not be respected in any way, as, after all, they voted to destroy them.
A strict regimen of deprogramming with conditional release only being remotely considered should they submit to daily struggle sessions of increasing levels of humiliation - for they wished to humiliate the seventy million in the name of upholding paedophile rule.
I will not empathise with these ghouls for a moment longer, for they have repeatedly proven that they want me, and people like me, to die. I see no difference between Reform; its members, voters, supporters and candidates, and a pack of rabid toddler-eating XL bullies.
I have no politics anymore. I just hate gammons.
>>2806210>I have no politics anymore. I just hate gammons.But wasn't this always the case, really?
read:
>>2804852 >>2806211It's very possible to hate both equally. You have to be genuinely retarded to be a racist. Racism is retarded. Simple as
>>2806212>its possible to hate both equallyI completely disagree. People constantly spam "Jewish nigger" in this place because Marx said it - so that makes it okay. Context is everything, and that is our ultimate hypocrisy.
Or as the saying goes, "antisemitism used to mean someone who doesn't like Jews, but now it means someone who Jews don't like". So we must always be aware of the subject and object.
>>2806218As Lenin once said "Everyone's a little bit racist so we must unite against those who are a lot bit racist"
>>2806220I prefer "A racist can have friends of other races, so long as they are also racist". So, racism precedes racialisation, as a type of subjective enjoyment.
>>2806213I don't think I've read it thrown towards anyone that was too "african" looking the way Karl and Lassale called each others black in this site
I also think it's better that way,instead of shutting words in a vault and hoping it never opens again,you completely warp it into a generic insult or a funny quip to completely kill it's original intent
>>2806210It's been pretty blackpilling to be seeing all the vile cunts on Facebook going like "well we know where the next detention centre is going" etc when greens have gotten seats, aren't they embarrassed to have their party leader making juvenile threats?
>>2806231I don't see what on earth could embarras people who voted for Nigel Farage.
>>2806231Anecdotal, but in our local Green Party we had a first time candidate, 19 year old, lovely guy, running for one of the wards. As of polls closing we tallied a total of 23 death threat messages sent to him over the course of the campaign, all from sad blokes about 3x his age. I will be surprised if he ever wants to get involved in politics again tbh, and who could blame him? Cattle, the lot of them. Irreperable.
>>2806227Sure, but the larger point is that there is no such thing as racism, there are only racists, which is why whenever [person i like] is "racist", theyre actually not racist. I heard this once from a Marxist, that Marx literally incapable of being racist, yet he was still "bigoted", but bigotry is not necessarily deplorable. Conservatives have a good question, which is "can facts be racist?" which they obviously cant be, yet the person presenting non-racist facts can be racist - so what exactly is racism, except a tone; an inference?
>>2806235Honestly I don't really want to live in this country anymore. I don't see what the point is in staying, things will only get worse
>>2806236>Sure, but the larger point is that there is no such thing as racism, there are only racists, which is why whenever [person i like] is "racist", theyre actually not racist. I heard this once from a Marxist, that Marx literally incapable of being racist, yet he was still "bigoted", but bigotry is not necessarily deplorable. Conservatives have a good question, which is "can facts be racist?" which they obviously cant be, yet the person presenting non-racist facts can be racist - so what exactly is racism, except a tone; an inference?marge
>>2806238>margehomer
drops his donut, d'oh!
>>2806239homer
spills his soda
d'oh!
>>2806237I don't have any solutions to offer people anymore when they ask me "How can we start fixing this". We are genuinely finished. I just hope the two minutes hate against brown people was worth it in the end for these mouthbreathers and hopefully when the NHS is gutted they'll be the first to suffer from it
The moral of the story is essentially if you know the right nonces you can get anywhere in life, you might even become prime minister one day.
>>2806241it never even began for britain
>nonces
this is a MAPphobic term please use minor attracted person(s) instead
>>2806235On this point, I feel similarly after being involved in Your Party, genuinely had a horrible impact on my life/wellbeing, not due to threats but just constant gaslighting, miserable evil people, and wrecking. It has put me off being involved in politics ever again too.
>>2806213personally i find it distasteful. not so much because of the slur as because of the childish glee in saying it, which reminds people that this site still hasn't shaken off its 4chan DNA. (4chan being perhaps single-handedly responsible for turning the imageboard medium into something almost exclusively for people with personality problems.)
>>2806218this stretches things too far: david cameron isn't a gammon and the former queen wasn't a karen, while the n-word was and is used to attack obama.
there was a comedy routine about the n-word only accurately referring to criminal or low-status black people and also being appropriate for similar white people, which you'd have to treat as a documentary to render your system internally consistent. (and even then the lesson would be one about social status, nothing more. the archetypal gammon is a retiree, the archetypal karen is middle class and middle income, etc.)
>>2806235Sure but left-of-center representatives being little faggot that cave in at the slighest (empty) menace from degenerates is also a problem. Your buddy is a bitch.
>yeah im gonna do POLITICS but do not ever ever ever ever ever ever menace me or be mean else ill CRY n LEAVE!Bro.
This is why American liberals and the French left dogwalk you guys even when they loose btw. They do not cave in to menaces, ever. even when they "moderate" on certain trends for the sake of good publicity they enver do it after being menaced by the opposition.
>>2806255I mean call me crazy but I don't think boomer retards should be able to criminally threaten and harass left wing candidates. I bet the police would do nothing about it either, even though they get people arrested for just repeatedly replying to TERF MPs
>>2806256French maybe but American? Fuck are you talking about? Dems are the most weak centrists ever
>>2806251>personally i find it distasteful. not so much because of the slur as because of the childish glee in saying it, which reminds people that this site still hasn't shaken off its 4chan DNA.Right, so its not about what is said, its about who says it and why/how.
>there was a comedy routine about the n-word only accurately referring to criminal or low-status black people and also being appropriate for similar white people, which you'd have to treat as a documentary to render your system internally consistent.Right, its Chris Rock's "black people vs uyghurs" bit. I've heard this in English suburbs; the difference between the "good ones" and the bad ones. Its still a notable distinction, as you say. On the G-word vs the N-word, there is actually an example of its immanent universality, in a conversation Daryl Davis had with the KKK, where the leader compared Daryl as a "black man" against the "white uyghurs" in the crowd - here, racial pejoratives perfectly synonymise with class/status, while there can't be such a thing as a black Gammon (or can there?) So, in a weird way, the N-word is more universalist in its applicability than the G-word, or K-word.
Why are British elites like this
Explaining reform voters is easy: there are reactionary idiots and evil retirees in every country.
But Labour and the Lib Dems are harder to explain. Why do left-liberal elites pander to stupid reactionary prejudices so strongly? This isn't about economic policy: the SNP show that you can run a basically status quo administration that nevertheless refuses to pander to reaction, as does basically every other mediocre center-left administration worldwide.
You could attribute it to the Starmer/McSweeney/Mandelson project, but Blair's government was horrifically reactionary too.
>>2806255Also it's not just empty threats BTW, every left wing demo is at threat of being attacked by organised flag fascists/neonazis. All these gammon are excons and pensioners who can do whatever violence they want because they don't care about going back to prison, whereas left wing people generally have jobs and livelihoods etc
>>2806262It's the dominance of right wing media freaks over the UK. Conventional wisdom is that you cannot get elected without the consent of Murdoch et al.
>>2806262>Why do left-liberal elites pander to stupid reactionary prejudices so strongly?Such as? The liberal-left is always more competently reactionary than the conservatives in any case. Nick Fuentes literally calls himself a "moderate Democrat" these days lol.
>>2806267And he's a neonazi troll what's your point?
>>2806269It's a stupid point to make, he's only saying that because it's passe to be a neonazi Trumpist
>>2806283speak well of our emir and prince nicholas J fuentes
>>2806283What are you even talking about…. Can you just go away
Starmer isn't even a 'left liberal' in the first place, he's just a right wing freak
>>2806288>What are you even talking about…. Can you just go away >>Starmer isn't even a 'left liberal' in the first place, he's just a right wing freakleftists trying not to call every single liberal right wing hitlerists (impossible)
>>2806288Real left-liberalism has never been tried; so true. 💅🏻
>>2806292>>2806290Corbyn is a left-liberal
>>2806294Corbyn is a far right demagogue like Hitler whose sole purpose is to drive dissent and anger at the capitalist system back into a controlled opposition movement that in the end reinforces the system.
Britain is a fascist shithole. Anon above is right.
Every Reformer goes to a reeducation / labour camp, is made to go through struggle sessions.
Anyone to the right of Reform, who supports Tommy Robinson, Lowe, Turning Point, UKIP, etc simply gets shot.
Leadership of all these groups get tortured followed by a public execution.
>>2806299I kind of feel like we're just crashing out by talking like this, surely we just need to smash the right wing media. People believe what they're told to believe
>Another "everyone is evil except me" purity spiral
I'll check back in later.
The british "people" have chosen and this is what they crave:
100 trillion dollars to Israel
>>2806302Dollars?
IP Check.
>>2806301I've visited Britain and I have acquaintances who work in the civil service. Genuinely, without any exaggeration, I am certain that 90% of that country is irredeemably evil.
>>2806305I really don't think it's that much worse than the USA, but I think it feels worse because we used to have a somewhat decent safety net, civil society, etc
>>2806305>90% of that country is irredeemably evilWell, 100% of humanity are sinners, so we've got good odds, then.
>>2806309Bro we're absolutely not doing fine. Yes the London stabbing stuff is overblown but the level of social deprivation is insane. The NHS is in permanent crisis and the government is trying to ban all social media use without ID. There's no housing and the homelessness problem is twice as bad as anywhere in Europe. Not to mention the governments insane overreach in the name of anti-terror and anti semitism, when did we start accepting that police will carry around assault rifles everywhere?
>>2806309Like the USA has gun crime and no healthcare sure but we basically have no healthcare in practice, and at least in the USA wages are double what they are here
>>2806310We're doing fine compared the richest country on earth, I mean.
>>2806311I already debunked the lie of America's relative wealth:
>>2797721>>2797752 >>2806307I'll give you an example of what I mean. When I visited I randomly went into a McDonalds one day to grab a coffee. Some drunk hobo stumbled in and asked for food. Everyone ignored him but I felt bad for the guy and bought him a muffin. When he went to leave after taking it and realizing no one else would help, I heard some Angloid mutter "he didn't even thank you" somewhere in the back. Anyways when I heard that guy I was filled with rage and then I immediately went into depression because I realized Britain was irredeemably fucked and there was no chance in hell it would ever get better if that was the general attitude of your people. You do not need to be thanked for doing the right thing. Tory austerity skyrocketed the homeless population a hundredfold and the results were already starting to become visible during my visit. If a foreigner like myself was the only one who helped the local hobo what does that say about the local community? The nation is doomed it'll die in the exact same way America is dying. If you're a Corbynite or Green voter or whatever I'd advise you to get the hell out and go live somewhere else since there's nothing left to save.
>>2806308The Catholic church sponsored the Solidarity trade union in Poland to undermine communist rule. After successfully transforming Poland back to capitalism the trade union still continued to exist. Recently due to ongoing inflationary pressures and defunding, Polish teachers represented by Solidarity tried to go on strike and were shut down. The Catholic church pretended to care about workers when they saw an opportunity to slam on the communists, but after they "won" they turned a blind eye again and allowed the workers to be subjugated. The reason church attendance has completely collapsed in the West is because the poor (i.e., the majority) have realized the priests will always side with the wealthy against them and that all the moralizing sermons are never directed against those who they should actually be directed against. Ignore that warning at your own peril. If your goal is to increase the number of faithful you are going to fail with your continued obstinate defense of the current economic order.
>>2806316>If you're a Corbynite or Green voter or whatever I'd advise you to get the hell out and go live somewhere else since there's nothing left to save. the problem is where to go that's actually better.
>>2806317I reckon we should all move to Africa and all the Africans can move here.
>>2806316>The reason church attendance has completely collapsed in the West is because the poor (i.e., the majority) have realized the priests will always side with the wealthy against them and that all the moralizing sermons are never directed against those who they should actually be directed against. Not really; its because people love sin more than God.
>>2806303We're all living under the dollars' rule, Shlomi
>>2806317It depends on what you're looking for. Ben Norton moved to Nicaragua and seems to be doing fine. Some people moved to China and are doing ok. Personally I'd like to eventually move to Belarus but I'd have to learn Russian and also I don't even know if they would accept labor migration.
>>2806321Keep telling yourself that I'm sure it's a useful cope that allows you to avoid thinking deeply about the real problems of your faith. Quick spiritual pop quiz for you, since you love the idea of institutions so much and I can tell you've never really thought about any of this: how many priests sided with Jehoshaphat and Ahab against Micaiah? Do you think that story has any implications for the church of today?
>>2806327The Church has always been an idolatrous institution which performs the abomination of desolation we call the Eucharist; the priestcraft of Aaron is not that of Melchizedek, since it is Melchizedek who comes unto Abraham, and Abraham who offers tithes unto the birthless stranger. Aaron causes the worship of the Golden Calf, for which Moses causes the murder of half of the Israelites. The Levitical Law comes through the line of Aaron, and so is equally tainted, by its appeal to blood sacrifice (e.g. outward circumcision). So I have no respect for the worldly church, but only the inward Kingdom of Heaven. It is still as yet not contradictory to say that people turn away from the churchly abodes because of their love of sin; but God intends evil for good, more than good can serve itself (like the Prodigal Son). Equally, Christ attends to sinners, not saints, while saintliness can turn to pride, like the Pharisees.
On institutions, I simply defend the minimal competency of our managerial state, which depends upon an oligarchy of bureaucrats. The alternative is civil disorder by letting go of the reins. When the experts are sidelined for populists, you get unprofessional madness.
>>2806299I voted Reform, ooooh you gonna come and drag me off to the labour camp are you, Mr. Wannabe Stalin? Your open borders globalist Muslim worshipping ideology is dead, and all you can do is cry about it in your sad little echo chamber ;)
>>2806343Man, at least vote restore or something before saying this shit, lol.
>>2806333>When the experts are sidelined for populists, you get unprofessional madness.>the expertst. Epstein
>>2806262The Center-Left are filled with people from working class backgrounds, who made it, such as, they entered the establishment, have successful businesses, meteroric careers in the City of London or Magic Circle Law etc. The typical pathway for these types is to of course, join the Tories, and people like Starmer and shit, would be Wet Tories, in a country like say Australia, but the UK is pretty unique in that the UK position runs into a form of Bloodline theory which forms a sort of crypto caste society. Tories aren't just the party of rich elites, they are the party of old landed money, certain last names, certain elite clubs and networks. If you didn't pop out of the pussy of dame noncenton-savile or whatever, it's very unlikely you will make it into the Tories. They do take on some token elites from other Demos, like elite Hindutva and Carribean business elites, purely because they need some representation, but the Tories are pretty closed shop.
So when people like Starmer, Streeting etc try work their way into the Tories, they get blocked, because they don't have the right names/networks. This makes them go into opposition with the Tories, because they view the Tories as incompetent nepobabies. So these are people who are basically Rory Stewart types, but more authoritarian, and now, they they're forced to work with blue haired wokies, hippies, terminal student politics types, who they grow to fucking despise, because not only are they not really left wing, most of the left is frankly a joke when it comes to serious real world politics, and they view the left as basically infantile children who ruin everything they touch, but are now competing for the exact same positions within the left as them. This leads them to viewing not the Tories, but the left as their primary enemy.
You can see this in how they always talk about "adults in the room" and similar sorts of catchphrases they use, they fundamentally see the left as spastic anarchist children.
So in the end, the battle becomes between the center-left, who view themselves as establishment meritocracy, vs Tories, who they view as Establishment Nepotism.
You also have to take into account how fucking INSANE the British commentariat are and the fact they hold such major political power. Go on X and just read all these Times and Telegraph and Spectator writers and ""Journalists"", literally the most demented, selfish, narcissistic, spiteful, haughty fucks out there.
Honestly if the Greens ever won a majority, they should do a massive royal commission into the media, then bring in reforms to free journalists from editorial line and make the media far more liable for misinformation/disinformation and smear jobs.
>>2806343Only people who want Camps are Reform. Every accusation is an admission.
>>2806352The real question about the Epstein case that still hasn't been answered is how come none of the raped girls simply overpowered and strangled him to death. Uyghur looks like the lamest nerd from a Comic Con convention who can't even do 10 pushups or write a proper email, yet he was somehow the leader of a sex trafficking ring. Mossad must have been doing a lot of heavy lifting in the background to make sure this failson could actually succeed.
>>2806356Reform 🤝 Greens
camps
shitty island
>>2806357The girls were mostly Eastern European prostitutes (like Melania Trump) as far as I know, so they were getting paid by their pimp.
>>2806356>Only people who want Camps are Reform. Every accusation is an admission.tuff
>>2806363It's not a mantra with explanatory power, but it is fun to say albeit very particular to the Americans, since the GOP can say and do practically anything and gets away with a litany of strange scandals
Reform voters:
100 GAZILLION POUNDS TO ISRAEL, HEIL NETANYAHU
Labour status?
>>2806420On the way to lose wales, and SNP is standing strong in Scotland.
I can't tell if the Greens are underperforming or not. Is this about as expected, a little bit below expectations?
>>2806454The Greens have gained 100 seats
Its massive
>>2806456Woke's back on the menu?
Plaid Cymru sweep
Woke Wales and Scotland vs Chud Saxons
CPB got like 100 votes in Penarth loool, 500 quid down the drain for them
>>2806465Another victory for the RCP, who's strategy will always be
>do nothing>winLmfao
>>2806462I know the SNP always goes on about how "if we get a majority that means we have the right to a second referendum", but with Plaid also being a nationalist party and now the largest in Wales (projected) how does wanting independence work for them?
>>2806465They ran three council candidates in Bury and combined they got fewer than 35 votes.
>>2806468HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>2806466I don't think RCP won anything after they tied themselves to YP xd. Except maybe new uni students to groom into their sex cult.
>>2806467They promised they wouldn't ask for a referendum this term in order to get Labour voters, though they might in 5 years. But Plaid Cymru are actually omega cucks they cucked out with the Treweryn dam in the 50s-60s and have been a soft woke liberal party ever since. They won't get us any closer to independence and if they do they want to join the EU. But them getting in is good since it shows a national party can be in government and it will also expose the contradictions of the Senedd which exists as counterinsurgency similar to Stormont. Plaid Cymru Wales for 5 years = people will realise you can't vote out of the union / capitalism and that liberal parties are shit and then we can attack Plaid Cymru and call for insurgency.
>>2806473I don't mind them being woke btw I mind them being liberal socdems who are also british bourgeois.
>>2806473RCP are indeed a sex cult but I love watching the CPB die more than anything
>>2806475They are the dementia party, like I do actually think Rob Griffiffs is senile, I met him in real life when he was general secretary and he doesn't know what's going on. He used to a militant Welsh nationalist btw he even went to court in relation to like bombings or something, and the nhe joined the fucking CPB. He even has a wikipedia article lol…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Griffiths_(politician) >>2806481He's been a geriatric since like 2016 lmfao. Actual crank. The only reason he's still a communist is because he probably thinks he lives under communism through the infinity money he gets from the govt for being old
Alan Woods being friends with Hugo Chavez is the closest any of you will ever get to power, really let that marinate
>>2806210>We need to put Reform supporters in re-education camps. This is what I unironically believe.father, is that you?
>>2806485Feel like pure shit just want Militant back
>>2806487My father also agrees with me, it's kinda crazy how the left is never wrong about anything and we should just rule by force at this point. Libertarian socialist here by the way :^)
One Reform council candidate for Bolton posted on Facebook:
>"just shoot all pakis on the spot"
Another Reform council candidate for Sunderland had posted on Facebook:
>"can't believe the amount of nigerians in town… should melt them all down and fill in the pot holes!"
Both have just been elected by large margins.
>>2806491First quote so laughably unbelievable you'd think Stephen Graham had said it whilst playing a generic skinhead
>>2806489What did they accomplish exactly?
This was a good read:
>William Benbow - Grand National Holiday, and Congress of the Productive Classes (1832):https://www.marxists.org/history/england/chartists/benbow-congress.htmHe proposes a National Holiday analogous to the Sabbath and Jubilee of the Hebrews, which amounts to a month-long general strike, while a Congress of the Working Class determines its demands to the British State. The reason the strike never happened is explained here:
<The month was scheduled to begin on 12 August, but on 4 August Benbow was arrested for seditious libel along with George Julian Harney, for campaigning to persuade workers to participate. The Chartists called off the strike. Benbow spent eight months on remand. At his trial, in Chester in April 1840, he spoke for over ten hours in his own defence, but was convicted and sentenced to sixteen months imprisonment. William Benbow, his wife and son George emigrated to Australia around 1853. He died in Sydney on 24 February 1864.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_BenbowBritain had one and only General Strike in 1926, which was immediately outlawed afterwards.
Been starting to read Mark Fisher and ngl I think he makes a good point. Not sure what I can actually do about any of it practically though.
>>2806499There are two Mark Fishers though; the early and the late.
The early Mark Fisher promotes pop culture by the medium of new technologies, and the later Mark sees technology as a barrier to culture, through overstimulation and gluttony. He was bending into the psychoanalytic critique of desire, as opposed to his earlier schizoanalytic writings. Capitalist Realism is literally just a giant rant about 'kids these days'. He would have had a heart attack if he saw gen alpha dadaism.
>>2805349Once again, Humans are not uniquely gay, if by "gay" you mean showing a strong preference towards intercourse with your sex. Homosexuality is ubiqtuous in wild mammals as well as being observed in many species of birds.
Most common in species with highly developed brains–cetaceans, primates, corvids. But it's not rare by ANY MEANS in the "natural" world.
Trans is a different thing entirely, and I don't think it's at all fair to conflate the two just because certain NGOs have done that.
>>2806491A party of moderates
>>2806496Dunno. Massive trolling though
>>2806505>Trans is a different thingDo transgender mammals exist?
STARMER MUST RESIGN
>>2806535Remains to be seen whether the party will force a leadership contest, as he's already stated he plans to continue
Could be that the PLP realise they're fucked if they try to replace Starmer at this stage
>>2806539They are fucked no matter what they do at this point
>>2806317Literally any other Anglo country
>>2806547Its not that simple anon. These countries all have strict migration.
>>2806580
I don't think the muslims voted Reform, sister. Also it's very toxic to project your own insecurities about autism score onto other people.
>>2806547Yeah, move to America and wind up drowning in debt without your precious NHS.
An absolute dictatorship would work but only if I'm in charge tbh. I'd set the country right.
>>2806608Same - and not just dictator of the UK, but also of the whole world.
>>2806614This was near me. Proper mental.
>>2806614It also wasnt really an 'after the argument' domestic. Local news has it that he turned up on her doorstep, she having previously escaped an abusive relationship with him.
Not reading your meaningless tome of shite fuck off
Host of QT saying it's anti-Semitic to suggest zionists may fund the far right and that the Greens should expel councillors for saying it
Oh Piers Morgan on it for no clear reason just to attack trans people too ig
>>2806535Is Keir getting mogged, what's going on??? Did he goon too much
>>2806505"Gay" among non-human mammals is just actual rape, dude.
>>2806645What you say about uk muslims and euro muslims more generally is true but they've been propped up by your workerist socially conservative left for decades. People like Galloway, Jk Rowling and Starmer love muslims and excessive diversity.
A big conservative left talking point is still that LGBT is doing neocolonialism by telling brown diasporas to tolerate gay and transgenders. Be serious.
>Ex Muslim FeministsCould not care less about "apostates", they are psychotic turncoats who still behave like salafi and are about as mentally ill. They should go back being feminist in their country to make a difference instead of polluting the discourse in the west and attacking the left.
>>2806691Pretty encouraging for Greens tbh. Overall not disastrous if you combine Labour and Green.
>>2806711not mammals but there have been many penguins who have had gay monagmous relationships
>>2806711What the stats reveal is that there was never the opportunity to consolidate power on the left, since statistically, historic labour voters have become reform voters. This shows the concrete, right-wing turn in the British working class, who are ready to elect the Tories 2.0. These same voters would have elected in Corbyn btw. WE NEED SOCIALISM!!!
>>2806645
>If we can accept that Jewish support for Israeli terror is a major cause of antisemitism,
Saying this will get you arrested, that's the difference you dumb cunt.
Btw are you from Merseyside?
>>2806737How can Nazis even exist in the UK?!?!
Didn’t the Nazis kill 43,000 civilians in the Blitz? Is Kid Starver’s party really that bad?
We live in a fascist state where socialism is seen as extremist and inconceivable and you go to prison for criticising zionism and you can just openly mock and scapegoat trans people on TV without pushback.
And in this house, Sir KEIR STARMER is a hero end of story
>>2806491in my city someone from reform got elected who said 'immigrants are breeding like rats' and 'islam is a cancer'. then when the labour/etc politicians condemned it all the reformers cried crocodile tears about how hateful and toxic the left are. fuckers.
>>2806737I mean has anyone actually calculated the stats on voter percentages this election? Reform probably haven't even got over a third of the vote but won anyway due to FPTP shittery.
>>2806857There's literally jews who worship the Nazis. People are just fucking morons.
Any of youse from Preston?
Reform won my council. Time to start littering.
>>2806974Imagine Lizz Truss forever
Reform is going to collapse like a house of cards once it’s actually in power
>>2807034Unfortunately, (or fortunately for the third worldists) they will be collapsing on top of the people of Britain.
>>2807052It’s just gonna be the Tory collapse again, see
>>2807033 there are people that genuinely really thought the greens would do well despite their de-facto open borders policy in a country where no government has ever dared go to an election with a promise to increase immigration rates and won
i remember that retard here that thought Labours big problem was that they weren't pro-migrant enough LMAO
>>2807056Stop stealing third world resources and third worlders will stop coming, have you thought about that?
>>2807056they've won 300 seats, not exactly terrible result
>>2807057>Stop stealing third world resources and third worlders will stop comingthe third worlders ARE the resource that we're stealing LOL
>>2807056they underperformed because it wasn't that many councils, they still did well either way
>>2806974>>2806974It is your duty to enshittify any ares that voted for reform with ad much anti social behaviour as possible
>>2806970>retarded country votes for an investment banker to fix their nationMore unsurprising news from Toryland (Conservatives have won 20/28 elections since 1918).
>>2806267"competently reactionary" requires definition. if you mean that they effectively implement reactionary policies, that's one thing, but often they are rhetorically reactionary in a completely unnecessary way. Nick Fuentes calls himself a "moderate democrat" because he's a troll, but Kamala Harris didn't go around demanding we build a wall, stop the boats, stop the transgender menace, etc. She spent most of her time saying nothing - and saying nothing is okay, saying nothing means not saying bad things. She lost in part because of that, sure, but contrast the UK where
in days when our institutions were slightly better functioning this guy lost his seat in the courts because he went so far in attacking his lib-dem opponent from the right that it tipped over into libel and breached the representation of the people act 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Woolas#2010_re-election_and_election_court_case >>2807056The SNP have gone to every election since at least the 1970s with an insistence that Scotland needs more immigration and less emigration, and the only reason they weren't doing it sooner was because they were under the control of fundamentalists who wanted all policy decisions to be postponed until after independence.
>>2807222>Kamala Harris didn't go around demanding we build a wall, stop the boats, stop the transgender menace, etc. No, it was Hillary and Obama; the darlings of the Democratic Party, who actively promoted a border wall and opposed gay marriage, before they didn't. There was no change of mind, only a change of agenda. Cuckservatives STILL call Obama "deporter in chief". If that's the case, why not be an Obama supporter? The difference is that Nick Fuentes would support Obama, like how he supported Kamala, while a typical conservative is afraid of the blue party. Same thing in this country, and mark my words - Farage will raise net migration into the UK above Starmer. I promise you.
>>2806645
I neither accept that antisemitism is mostly derived from the actual actions of Jewish people (not even Israel), nor that Islamophobia is majorly caused by the actions of muslims.
The majority of antisemitism comes from the right and the right rarely give a fuck about gaza. if they whine about israel at all, it's usually about the USS liberty or some other nonsense.
The majority of islamophobia comes from the right as well. The common factor here is rightism, and any nitpicking about Israel's actions prompting an increase in antisemitism on the left misses the woods for the trees. almost tautologically, rightists are either prejudiced or at ease with prejudice if it means they get tax cuts. if they did not have a personality type inclined to prejudices, they would not be rightists.
>>2807226the pivot speaks well of them. it is one thing to oppose gay marriage in 2004 and another thing entirely to oppose it in 2012. even if their personal feelings haven't changed one bit, their ability to say the right thing is laudable. it is britain's politicians refusal to do the same, or their pivot from doing so to not doing so, which must be explained.
you might be right about farage delivering the "worst of both worlds", but why didn't starmer deliver the best? why not shut the border while singing the praises of diversity and immigration from the rooftops? if you believe immigration (and not press hysteria and petty prejudices) really does cause the majority of anti-immigration sentiment, you should get rid of it by cutting immigration on the one hand while keeping progressives on side by pretending you're not doing that (maybe all the immigrants are staying away because of brexit. that must be it. grr, brexit.)
>>2807232Starmer is someone who seems to always be trying to read the room rather than having an agenda, which is part of the fault of his strategy. He went from condemning the Southport rioters to calling Britain an "island of strangers" to apologising for it, etc. He's all over the place, so just isn't the best politician.
>>2807233
I will reiterate that it is not oikophobia to hate old reactionary cunts in wanker parts of England. Glibly: I love every Green voter, SNP voter, plaid voter, I accept most Labour voters and Lib-Dem voters as well. There are even a smattering of Tories I can live with. Reform voters, however, are more foreign to me than any other person on the planet. This would be true even before we factor that in the modern world one can find people with whom they have more in common based on shared ideas, hobbies, tastes, humour, etc, than they can in the modern area. (e.g. there are people from Canada who are more like me than people in Britain, and my dislike of British people who are different to me is xenophobia not oikophobia.)
Let's turn it around: why isn't it Oikophobia for you to hate the indigenous British left and all our proud tradition of uselessness? Why are you more afraid of left-voting British muslims than of right-voting British whites with yankee brains?
>>2807231TRTCH NVUKEU
Hard to argue against when reformers are seig heiling behind nazi flags at rally and the lefts 'anti-semitism' typically manifests in 'can you please stop genociding muslim babies'
>>2807244
Death to UK culture. Death British values. Death to Westminster. Death to the project of Britain.
>>2807244
You saw Tory voters like Corbyn's policies until they found out it was Corbyn… and you concluded that people vote based on policy, not based on some other factor, so the left should adopt more pragmatic policymaking?
The left would basically ignore the hospital problem and leave it to some kind of boring official decision, although you could have a fun argument about it (if the regular hospital is saving 10,000 people who're 90 years old, which is what a regular hospitals usually do, it will probably save less years of life than the children's hospital). Opening a hospital makes you look good no matter what.
I think the left is also perfectly capable of making such decisions. The SNP oversaw the construction of a hospital that killed some people - well, fair enough, that could happen to anyone, builder's fault right? Well, how did they respond, as basically decent people? They helped management try to cover it up because it would be bad PR. Anas Sarwar directly asked John Swinney to take responsibility in a question from one of the victims mothers and he looked right into the camera and said: wait for the inquiry. Sarwar said: That's exactly what the victim's mother said you'd say to try and get out of this. John Swinney looked straight back into the camera, sounding all sensible and respectable, and he said: wait for the inquiry. He got away with it and just won a 5th term, and I would still gladly say he's a decent person because "wait for the inquiry" is too anodyne to be obscene.
The SNP and Plaid run contrary to basically ever argument "decent fucking person"ism. In the SNP's case, you don't even need to govern particularly well! The SNP since 2015ish have been comically incompetent, but never openly evil. Their opponents have been evil, and look where that got them. The wider left's competency problem is purely logistical - if the SNP could pull off the last Holyrood election, mired in scandal, incompetency, and near-bankruptcy, against the best funded Labour campaign in Holyrood history, the rest of us have no excuses. If Plaid can argue for an independent Wales from the current economic baseline, the rest of us have nothing to fear in selling our ideas.
As for 2017 Lab > 2028 Reform Switchers, there are basically none of these. You're falling into the trap of believing media narratives instead of looking at actual polling data in depth. People aren't constituencies: if a northern seat flips from Labour to Tory or Reform, that doesn't mean Labour voters themselves are going Tory or Reform. (Instead in most cases Labour voters were discouraged and Tories/Reform lost votes compared to 2017. e.g. if you assume differential turnout, then most red wall seats could fall simply because Tories voted and Labour voters stayed home.)
I mean remember this: more 2019 Tory voters died than swung to Labour in 2024, despite Starmer doing all he could to pander to them. Voting behavior is complicated. Anyway, I'm putting my money on the comparatively young parties.
>>2807263
the only person sperging out like this is you honestly, are you lost from the facebook/reddit liberals seething?
Its just buisness as usual for leftists, if you think anything will fundamentally change between reform or lab/tories you are stupid, its just the 'bad' liberal party to play the heel for the next 'good' liberal party.
>>2807263
You're the real globalist since you believe so strongly in the British Empire. I am personally a nationalist.
>>2807263
The average rightist in this country is retired or expects to retire before the next election. "the workers" well managers, insofar as managers count as workers vote green, lib-dem, independent, SNP, plaid, or (for some godforsaken reason) labour.
I will however give you this: I'd sooner hand the world to bankers than to dementia patients.
>>2807223>The SNP have gone to every election since at least the 1970s with an insistence that Scotland needs more immigration and less emigration the only reason they weren't doing it sooner was because they were under the control of fundamentalists who wanted all policy decisions to be postponed until after independence.The leader of the SNP could go out and stab someone in broad day light and the scots would still vote SNP. Until independence is achieved things like immigration policys are just meaningless hypotheticals, which the fundamentalists knew.
if the SNP ever achieved Scottish independence the first thing to happen would be party splits specifically over now non-hypothetical issues like immigration policy suddenly going from meaningless to meaningful, a nationalistic SNP now actually needing to justify to its nationalistic voter base their open door pro-immigrant policy, has a massive risk of becoming very unpopular very quickly and blowing up into 4 different partys.
>>2807278fundamentalists flopped hard, the SNP only started winning seats when they put forward a broad socdem platform. the last time they did serious independence planning (or even referendum planning) was in 2014.
>>2807282are you missing the amount of hardline nutters the SNP has?
like they have had everything from hardcore evangelical anti-lgbt types such as Ruth Davidson + Glasgow east and anti-abortion types such as Kate Forbes.
>>2807282<the last time they did serious independence planning (or even referendum planning) was in 2014.it looks like they're about to try again lol
>Ahead of the 2026 Scottish Parliament election, Swinney said in September 2025 that the UK Government should commit to granting a second referendum on independence should the SNP win a majority at the election.>On 8 September 2025, the Scottish Government published the Your Right to Decide paper, which sets out the government's prospectus on independence following a second referendum and establishes the view that "it is for the people of Scotland to decide on their constitutional future".[113] In the paper, the Scottish Government states that the UK is a "voluntary union of nations" rather than a unitary state, and therefore argues that Scotland should have the ability to decide whether to leave a voluntary union arrangement.[113]>At the 2025 SNP Conference, Swinney argued that an SNP majority in the 2026 Holyrood elections would make it impossible for the British Government to refuse a second referendum. The conference supported a motion backed by Swinney to declare a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament as a mandate for a second referendum, and rejected a proposed amendment to treat the Scottish Parliament election as a substitute referendum by the party. Swinney argued that, "The precedent is clear, when the SNP win a majority, we deliver a referendum on independence", and told the conference, "nobody knows what tactics I will deploy" to achieve a second referendum. >>2807294I don't exactly mind appealing to cops, at least they serve some kind of social purpose, but arms manufacturers? I don't want to march arm in arm with workers striking to get paid more to build bombs to drop on Gaza
>>2807289Ruth Davidson was and is a Tory, as in, she literally lead the Scottish Conservatives and has never been in the SNP. Kate Forbes kept her nutter views mostly quiet and then quit politics after being marginalised when they became more public, Fergus Ewing was kicked out and ate shit, Joanna Cherry was stopped from moving to holyrood and then ate shit at Westminster and now has a book out seething that Nicola Sturgeon didn't like her. (One of the few correct judgements Sturgeon ever made)
The SNP used to keep its nutters in line by focusing them on independence. Now the nutters are willing to wreck in pursuit of their prejudices, they're mostly out. Forbes is the most egregious case of a high profile nut but she doesn't run her mouth like the others, she just believes insane things quietly.
>>2807290If the UK was smart they'd grant a referendum and let the Yes side lose it again, the SNP are in no state to campaign for it at the moment (bankrupt and short of real talent) and haven't done any of the planning for what an independent Scotland would look like since 2014, but that'd take boldness (and, tbf, confidencd that money can offset the UK parties own talent vacuum)
>>2807294The left tautologically cannot appeal to arms dealers and has an uphill battle winning over cops to no real end. Building a left-wing paramilitary would be infinitely easier than winning over the existing one and that's saying something.
>>2807301I mixed up the Ruth with Joanna Cherry my bad, its hard to keep a track of the TERF landwhales
>>2807301idk do you really think yes would win this time? the general state of the UK is much worse than in 2014 and people have much less trust in westminster (not saying they had a huge amount in 2014 but I feel like 90% of people would agree 'they're all criminals' nowadays)
>>2807302Also yeah it does seem like the SNP has been cleaning house with the times, I think back to the Salmond era where he was taking millions of donations to vote against gay marriage from the mega bus evangelical nonce
>>2807303I meant 'do you really think no would win this time' obviously.
I mean shit I feel like if you asked English voters 'do you want to dissolve the government and have some kind of other arrangement, who knows what', most of us would probably vote for it.
>>2807294You can't switch around "pragmatism" with "machiavellism" and pretend you're making a smart point, retard. If you want to do third way politics then you're free to join labor lmfao. They're doing great!
>>2807290Scottish independance polling is at the higest it's ever been, last poll in date gives 52% for independance, 43% for unity and 5% undecided. Since the greens also support independance, this is the most independantist scottish parliament, Brexit and the general decline of British living standards have caused scots to be less inclined to stay in the Union.
>>2807301What you're proposing for Scotland was Cameron's strategy for Brexit, hoping that a remain vote would give him legitimacy.
Didn't work out.
I think westminister is in a tricky situation, they are in need of legitimacy since they've completly lost the elections, so they might give Scotland the referendum, but if Scotland wins, then Northern Ireland will leave for sure and Even Wales might be tempted. Could sign the end of the UK. So I think the only way for the SNP to gain its referendum is if they end up being kingmakers in the next general elections, say if there is a Tories-Reform-DUP-TUV alliance against a Green-Labour-Libdem coalition with neither achieving the majority, SNP and Plaid could offer its support to the broad left in exchange for a Scotland referendum.
>>2805326I've seen you make this point a few times and you never bother to explain why a communist society will be super duper mega gay and kinky, you just put it out there like it's an undisputed truth. Why would the world become so turbohomo if it turns communist?
>>2807361because it just will…ok?!!!
>>2807361Because the material restrictions that lock down how people can live will be overcome. Indeed, that is basically the definition of developing the productive forces. If you want to explain why women can live as full human beings instead of as child rearers, look to the industrialisation of textile work (even rich women used to always be spinning thread if you go back far enough!), to labour saving devices and the pill. If you want to explain childlessness (including homosexual partnership of the same age) look to pensions, social security, and general prosperity ensuring you don't need a child to care for you in your dotage, if you want to explain transgenderism look to the internet (not because people are groomed or tricked into it, but because it lowers the social cost of transitioning. If everyone locally thinks you're a freak that's suicide fuel in 1980 and basically irrelevant in 2026, where everyone on leftypol.org still thinks you're cool.)
For every other fetish it's basically a simple function of mass communication. If you want to fuck toasters, great, go to /r/toasterfucker and share your hottest (medium brownest?) fantasies. No plausible communist society is going to enact a ban on harmless weirdness and no successful one is going to bring in enough judgemental noseyness to exterminate it.
>>2807382trvth nuku
also east germany was heading this way anyway, they legalized homosexuality and opened trans clinics because it was easier to give the gays what they wanted than to continue to waste police time arresting them.
>>2807394
they are doing material analysis if you cant tell
>>2807397
yes, multiple famines happened and they needed to quickly repopulate, banning abortion was also related to this.
>>2807394
I am explaining how economic and technological progress drives social change in ways that aren't always immediately intuitive (how does a textile mill in Lancashire lead to Nicola Sturgeon?) but which has a central tendency towards social liberalism.
>>2807397
I may do more detailed analysis but yes. You can view the earlier legalisation as an attempt to leapfrog the underlying economic composition of society and push progress by legislation alone, which failed and was rolled back as Stalin rationalised things. That the USSR didn't subsequently liberalise (or develop to its full economic potential) speaks to its underlying institutional flaws.
Though legislation is cheap: the real question is whether there was more homosexual behaviour in 1917, 1934, or 1991. I put to you that there were more exclusively gay Russians outside a lavender marriage in 1991 than in 1917, because even when homosexuality was legal the circumstances of 1917 made it materially infeasible for most people to live as they wished
>>2807401
The legalization/decrimm in 1917 is misleading, it was widely hated by most Russians and enacted by city intellectual types - the average Russian didnt know how to read and lived in a serfdom era shithole for the most part and was super orthodox, they had to throw concessions to the reactionaries due to population collapse.
As I previously stated the USSR in the 80s was starting to liberalize LGBT+ laws towards its end, same with womens rights.
>>2807401
Viewing living conditions as "good" or "bad" as a proxy for the roots of liberalism is stupid. Russia may have been poorer in 1993 than in 1990, but that doesn't undo the invention of the morning after pill abroad, or a large number of trained abortionists hanging around, does it? You are imagining a mechanical determinism into a much messier process.
>>2807394
communism is the fulfillment of the broken promises of liberalism.
>>2807405This is also pretty symbolic of Lenin era USSR vs Stalin era USSR - Lenin was a well read intellectual, Stalin was an orthodox guy who was born in a farm barn.
This is where Stalin was born
>>2807405>The legalization/decrimm in 1917 is misleading, it was widely hated by most Russians and enacted by city intellectual typesdid the average person even know or care?
>>2807411Yes the average rural russian would have been aware of this, you should research the push/pull between the tribal style women doctors who lived in rural areas and the criminalization of them by the Tsar, and later emancipation by the revolution.
>>2807414
>It is the law which drives social change you plonker. There are more gay people today than in the past because it was a crime in the past. Simple.
yes and no, it's not one way street, the law drives behaviour and behaviour drives the law
>>2807414And how do the elites manifest what they 'want'?
They have to play politics with demographics eventually.
>>2807412Reading about this will help you understand what pathologic is talking about
>>2807421
znakharki is the word btw
>>2807421
Which is why they can let people be gay and have abortions when there is enough people to meet the material needs of the population but have to pull that back when faced with famine.
Education leads to liberalized LGBT+ laws in general as a trend, you cant get educated if you need farm hands so you dont all die.
>>2807412woman doctors has nothing to do with homosexuality though. abortion maybe idk
>>2807430
>Capitalist society
>"More or less communist"
>>2807410Stalin was also an intellectual and an atheist where is this classist shit coming from
>>2807414>No, you are saying that there is a linear graph between communism and queerness, which is clearly false.I am saying that they are strongly correlated, which is true. The fact the USSR failed to update its laws to reflect underlying material conditions speaks to the same underlying structural flaws that meant the USSR couldn't adapt to changing conditions and not die on its arse. (Contrast China, which adapted fine and which has a negative official line on homosexuality and nonconformism in general, but which nevertheless is full of LGBT behavior because all the basic underlying material drivers are there.)
The law influences changes in social attitudes, but it does not drive social change. As late as 1995 a majority of
irreligious adults in the UK thought gay sex was always wrong despite homosexuality having been legal since the 1960s!
The changes in the 1960s came about due to increasing recognition that whether you criminalized being gay or not, some men were going to do it.
That said: liberal elites are always, everywhere, better than conservative elites. That around the world conservative elites have allowed themselves to be eaten up pandering to the actually mentally deficient tells you all you need to know about the "virtues" of conservatism.
>>2807430Because it's not a question of rich vs poor.
A poor country with a retirement system will, all else being equal, have more exclusively homosexual men than a richer country without one. That is what this theory predicts. It is, to a high degree, independent of wealth. (Though because everything is connected to everything else, this can't be drawn too far: a rich enough country without any state retirement system will probably still have childless couples due to a reliable
private retirement savings scheme. You've really got to dig around in low/middle income countries for this kind of thing.)
The liberal west is more economically developed than the DPRK, Cuba, Vietnam. China is an interesting outside case where it is more developed in some respects and less developed in others. There is no "communist" variable in the way you seem to wish there was. Cuba is governed by a communist party, and in that sense is "more communist", but it is economically underdeveloped, and is in that sense further from communism. This is obviously well above your pay-grade, but someone else might get something out of having this obvious fact explained plainly.
Incidentally, it's not for nothing that the most reactionary parts of the developed world are the least developed US states and the actively undeveloping United Kingdom.
>>2807441That isn't the hypothesis. The hypothesis, oversimplified, is that:
- Communism is the highest state of economic and social development
- As societies develop economically and socially, they are more gay
- Therefore, communism will be incredibly gay.
A communist governed socialist country has not achieved communism, and indeed none of them
claim to have achieved "communism." There is no "more" or "less" communism in this sense. It is like saying that you have done "more" moon landings than me because you've been in a plane and I haven't. You cannot have "more" or "less" of a binary condition, it is either done or not done, true or false, on or off.
>>2807596Is there a single person outside Mainland China who sees more gay behaviour from Chinese than Western people? Where are the queer parades with 100+ million attendees? Where's the multitrillion gay club industry?
Unique IPs: 135