[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo / 420 ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password(For file deletion.)

Check out our new store at shop.leftypol.org!


File: 1778105789989.jpg (160.27 KB, 960x1280, Vlad.jpg)

 

Russia had no good reason to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has good reason to resist Russian occupation but should be open to ceding territory in return for peace if possible. I do not buy that the Far-Right parties around the world that defend this invasion were actually le based prole-pilled geniuses the entire time. Prove me wrong.
568 posts and 72 image replies omitted.

>>2815382
>They have been militarizing since the 90s and 00s
Yeah. Now they're even more militarized and have been handed pretext to do even more militarization.
>more of a when than an if
A Ukrainian invasion of Russia would result in Kyiv getting nuked if it approached anything even close to success. Even Kursk was an enormously risky and stupid operation and it was never even planned to be a large scale invasion. If Russia ever felt that the only option to keep itself together was using a nuclear weapon against another country, it would do it. Any atomic nation would do the same. The very idea of a Ukrainian invasion of Russia is laughable.
>>2815389
Your statement is basically admitting that the invasion was a retarded disaster that's accomplished nothing.

>>2815423
It isn't and you're wasting everyone's time by just reading what you want to read in everyone's posts.

>>2815423
Saving over 100 million Russian lives from a second Generalplan Ost is not “nothing”

>>2815433
Even if it wasn't that extravagant, the dissolution of the USSR (however you explain that happening) resulted in massive loss of life and NATO wants nothing more than a repeat of that, Ukraine (indeed all NATO aspirant states) are willing participants to that end.

So the idea that Russia could just "ignore" the pressure is obviously stupid and anyone suggesting that was an option for Russia glows.

>>2815431
If the war has just caused Russia to have to drastically increase defense spending like NATO wanted it to do, then they've played into NATO's hands. There was no need to constantly increase defense spending even before the invasion because if NATO is insane enough to start WWIII then it's extremely unlikely that Russia's defense spending will play into that decision. Therefore, may as well not play their game and just keep it at a reasonable level. If WWIII starts, Russia's defense spending will not be relevant to their victory because there will be no victory, just a nuclear holocaust. And like you implied, defense spending wasn't even the reason the USSR collapsed in the first place, so why invade over the hope of not having to do such a thing?
>>2815433
Adults are talking
>>2815452
>the idea that Russia could just "ignore" the pressure is obviously stupid
Thankfully Russia decided to increase the pressure and invade Ukraine, which was clearly the far better option and has accomplished so much.

>>2815433
>>2815452
>Russia saved Russian lives by starting a a failed war that kills hundreds of thousands of Russian lives while NATO is sitting back and laughing, all that so Pooptin can annex 2 shitty oblasts and larp as Peter the great
great plan 4D chess masterplan zigger

>>2815358
>what the fuck were they going to do, invade Russia
THEY LITERALLY DID INVADE RUSSIA, in 2024 they pushed towards Kursk, in 2023 they pushed towards Belgorod. Thank god for the SMO depleating their military resources to great extent, who fucking knows what the damage could have been if Russia was caught off guard like Stalin was in WWII and let those Nazi forces take ground like the Germans did.

>>2815458
and the soviet union invaded nazi Germany so Hitler was justified for offing 20 million russians

>>2815456
>If the war has just caused Russia to have to drastically increase defense spending like NATO wanted it to do
You've already misunderstood the post, I'd normally try to reword it to help you but you made this thread just to be able to eventually post
>I'll join you in masturbating to Ukrainian kids dying.
and let the thread know that you'll only open your mind if presented with top secret Ukrainian documents, so what would the point be?

>>2815457
>NATO is sitting back and laughing
If they were expecting to opportunistically use the economic fallout of COVID to eliminate Russia as an undercutting competitor in the energy sector and secure their own recovery via price gouging oil, I somehow doubt they find now resorting to borrowing money to give to Ukraine a laughing matter.

>>2815458
>THEY LITERALLY DID INVADE RUSSIA
Already talked about Kursk, try to keep up. Consult >>2815423 So yeah the invasion of Kursk that failed and only happened because Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. I like how this proves that Ukraine was going to invade Russia but Russia's invasion of Ukraine clearly doesn't show that they had been considering invasion for quite some time. Anyway, Kursk clearly PROVES that Ukraine was intending to occupy Moscow in 2022 before CHADimir Putin stopped him. Z! Z! Z! Z!

>>2815460
German cultural output during the entire Nazi era, even before 1941, was dreaming about conquering lebensraum until the Urals. Ukrainian cultural output during the entire post-Maidan era, even before 2022, was dreaming about conquering the LNR and DNR and implementing Banderite policy there.

https://bsky.app/profile/mariadrutska.bsky.social/post/3mm2eumczzx24

Ukrainian drones struck targets in Zelenograd, an administrative district of Moscow.

The likely target was the ELMA technopark, where companies involved in electronics production are located.

>>2815467
what's been the muscovite cultural output since 1547?

>>2815465
just how delusional are you? This war costs NATO less than 1% of their total budget. The war costs Russia more than 50% of their budget. Russia will go bankrupt 20 times before NATO even feels they lost anything

>>2815467
Ziggers are still dreaming of stealing back all the colonies they lost in 1991, yet still haven't managed to steal back even 1 shitty oblast from the poorest country of Europe

>>2815472
Human progress.

>>2815477
no it's not it's dreaming about conquest of eastern europe because we wuz rus and then conquest of europe because we wuz europeans as well

>>2815465
I think you believe that I've missed something or don't understand because you've assumed that your argument is so solid that the idea that somebody thinks it's retarded is inconcievable. I will try to spell it out for you
>Russia's choices were either playing their role in this scheme and increasing defence spending according to the ever increasing threat NATO expansion represents, or trying to achieve a swift surrender from Ukraine to prevent said expansion.
So you say that Russia did this to avoid increasing defense spending (thereby destroying itself) and to stop NATO expansion. The solution? Making Ukraine surrender. They accomplished none of this. Like you said, they're spending more on Defense just like NATO wanted them to, and they haven't really halted NATO expansion either. Russia's invasion has not kept Ukraine from aligning with NATO and their meager gains are negated by the immense cost of the war. And you then claim that this is kind of a win because NATO now has to increase defense spending too. This is false, NATO WANTS to increase defense spending and is ecstatic that this war has given it an excuse to do so in the eyes of the public, silencing much of the opposition to its increased militarism.
>you made this thread just to be able to eventually post
Are you actually still mad about this?

>>2815482
there are three threads about the same topi c with the same people repeating the same talking points over and over

>>2804238
From the pre ipso facto point of view yes, but now? I'd rather see Russia win to see Ukraine become a banderita palantir blackrock hellhole

>>2815487
Zigger nazis aint gonna win anything, the useless russoid army took more than 10 years to defeat tiny chechnya that didn't even have any support so imagine how long it would take them to defeat Ukraine, Russia and Putin's nazi regime will collapse and go bankrupt before NATO even spends more than 2% of its budget on Ukraine

>>2815482
You said
>If the war has just caused Russia to have to drastically increase defense spending like NATO wanted it to do
as usual you're putting the cart before the horse, that framing makes it appear like the invasion caused Russia to increase military spending needlessly, when the point you're refusing to confront is that NATO expansion would have forced Russia to increase military spending anyway while the invasion going as planned would have avoided it.

>NATO ackshually loves military spending

Most states weren't meeting their pre-existing spending quota.

>Are you actually still mad about this?

I think it's worth reminding you what your attitude is when asking people (i.e me) to "prove you wrong".
btw, remember when you said
>I'll join you in masturbating to Ukrainian kids dying.
just incase you forgot already.

>>2815498
Still, Ukraine is becoming the playground for this international digital lumpenoligarchal finance clown world, so I can't support any of that

>>2815533
Russia is already the playground of NATO and China, one gets to test their weapons on Russian cannon fodder and the other siffons its cheap underpriced resources, and when Russians can't have any more war and poverty pushed on them by their oligarchs they will have their Russian euromaiden too

>>2815342
It's absolutely possible to force a sovereign country to launch a war. This is a defensive war for Russia. Truly pre-emptive declarations of war are rare, but they do exist when an enemy weaker than you is preparing for an attack. A state behaving irrationally by choosing to attack a stronger enemy can be explained by their lack of sovereignty. The reason why Ukraine and the EU is ready to accept a war that will bankrupt them on the short term, but has almost no chance of bringing any benefits to offset the losses is because they are controlled by the United States. The US itself was barely hurt by the war, but it allowed them to force the EU to buy more natural gas and weapons from the US than ever. Why would the US have ever chosen not to force Ukraine and Russia to fight a full-scale war and based on this, how could Russia have forced the Americans to back off short of launching WW3 for real? In fact, if the war was inevitable, Russia went for the easiest option by counting on the Ukrainian army collapsing, which forced them to endure the humiliation of voluntarily giving up half of Ukraine.

An irrational enemy, like an ISIS suicide bomber indirectly controlled by Langley requires a very different strategy compared to direct enemies. One has to fight them as if they were an existential threat even if that wouldn't follow from their strength level. This is not Russia's fault. Nobody should be blamed for the suicidal geopolitical strategy of the EU and Ukraine other than themselves.

>>2815553
NATO spending on Ukraine is less than 1% of their total budget, Russian spending on Ukraine is now more than 50% of Russian budget. Imagine how delusional zigger you must be to claim that anyone other than Russia is going bankrupt right now

>>2815554
The reason why countries have military spending is to defend themselves from others, or to conquer and exploit others. What is the EU gaining? A recession. Russia is still faring better despite fighting a war.

Why are you so adamant about defending the EU's war drive? Don't tell me you bought Rheinmetall stocks after listening to Kaja Kallas's advice?

>>2815565
what is Russia gaining from this war? 150k dead Russians a year and 50% of their budget thrown in a hole in exchange for 5 shitty Ukrainian villages in Donbas? Great victory there zigger. The entire economy of Russia is smaller than that of Italy and this zigger is still trying to convince anyone that Russia is a successful rich country and EU is bankrupt, might as well go write articles for sputnik tv

>>2815523
>NATO expansion would have forced Russia to increase military spending anyway
And I already said that increasing military spending to unreasonable levels is entirely unnecessary invasion or not and explained why that's the case, so I suppose you're just projecting with this "You didn't understand my post" bullshit.
>Most states weren't meeting their pre-existing spending quota.
Do you actually think that NATO is like "Ohhhh fuck now our client states have to spend more on the military everything's going to collapse broooo"? It doesn't matter if these countries wanted to spend a shitload on their military before, the US WANTED TO SPEND MORE and they wanted their client states to do the same. And guess what? Now they are. Furthermore, they have an excuse for their population to justify these military expendiatures. I truly do not get this angle that NATO is horrified at the prospect of spending more money on their military. Sure, it's a problem for Russia, but they only have the 9th highest nominal GDP and 5 NATO countries are above them. NATO's combined Nominal GDP is $58.943 trillion. Russia's is $2.660 trillion. Russia has accomplished absolutely nothing by getting NATO to increase military spending, NATO has accomplished a shitload by getting Russia to funnel enormous amounts of money into its war machine.
>I think it's worth reminding you what your attitude is
What, the attitude of wanting some kind of evidence or even just a convincing argument to back up insane claims of grandiose Ukrainian military operations against Russia and the seperatist states before the invasion?
>remember when you said
Yes, what exactly is your problem with it? I percieve that you adore the destruction of Ukraine because, among other reasons, you're sick in the head. What is unique about this accusation compared to me calling you a retard?

>>2815545
If what you say it's true, then everything is fucked up from all angles. Ofc the situation of Ukraine it's the worst case scenario for that country and even for Russia, only finantial capitalism can claim a clear victory over that battleground. So, instead of spending so much energy denouncing Russia or Ukraine, we should all spend our energy trying to analyze the situation from an historic, economic and geopolitical point of view. This whole moralistic idle chatter about who is good and who is bad makes absolutely no fucking sense. Who are the real actors inside Russia? Who is in control of the Russian state? What are their material constraints? To what extent are they really siding Russia with China and the global south as their ideological self presentation pretends to be doing? What otherwise MATERIALLY (not vibe-wise) to the western finantial bourgeoisie, tech lord's… In one word the ruling class? Who wields power inside Ukraine? Who are the imperial viceroys there? Where those their national bourgeoise stand? What will be the future of their blackrock economy? What will be the future of their palantir bureaucracy?

I'm very ignorant and I don't know shit about Russia, Ukraine, political economy, etc. but i think the important questions we should be contemplating are these ones, not this bullshit polemic. I'd love to see you all that know more than me discuss this in this line, so maybe I can learn some material reality of the situation

Aaaaaand that's 600. Thanks for playing everybody. Enjoy overtime.

>what is Russia gaining from this war?
sense of accomplishment, land to plunder

>>2815554
>Russian spending
doesn't matter as long as there's money to be squeezed from population or anyone lending money
>>2815574
>150k dead Russians a year
also doesn't matter, russians don't value life like westerners do

>>2815594
Another thing to bring up is the effects this conflict has had on the politics of Europe, including Russia. The militarist environment produced by this conflict has been an excellent opportunity for reactionaries across the board and practically made social patriotism mandatory in public discourse for the left on both sides of the frontline. A lot of people have essentially been purged from public life or literally put in prisons over their allegiances or lack thereof in this war without much public debate. It's been a regressive disaster really.

>>2815598
Russia has the largest land area in the world, if there is one thing they don't need is more land. This was all about Russian inferiority complex. After the collapse of USSR Russians have been suffering collectively from inferiority complex against the west, this war was supposed to be Russia trying to prove to the world that they are relevant and strong and a superpower that can invade other countries like US does, and instead they proved the exact opposite, that they are barely a regional power let a lone a superpower

>>2815594
people always have this irrational notion that whoever benefits the most from a situation automatically means they caused the situation. This war was Russia shooting themselves in the foot, just because the west benefits from it, doesnt absolve Russia from causing it, capitalism can profit and benefit from any situation whether there is war or no war, they always find a way to profit

>>2815612
What I meant is that some serious socioeconomic and political analysis is due here, instead of partisanship. You guys in this and other threads that spend so much time discussing Russia-Ukraine should all organize an investigative commission, read some history and economics, and jointly reach some sort of analysis. All this polemical and debate zeal could be channeled better in a formal correspondence-investgation bureau that integrates different opinions. When I compare the level of discussion in this site with local communists I find that the level of analysis, even if not perfect nor ideal by any means, is much stronger here. This means we have good brains and great potential to do projects like this. I am not into this war and I still need to educate myself a lot, but it is obvious that some project like this would be much more valuable than this stupid chatter, even if everyone involved only invested the same amount of time in their day that they invest in the pointless debate. It would only require more energy. Same time, more energy.

>>2815620
we talking about it isn't gonna solve anything, Russians themselves should be talking about it but they are banned from doing so

>>2815641
If you all don't plan on comprehending then why even start talking about it? If you are willing to polemicize online, why not jointly investigate online investing the same time (but more energy)? That's what I mean

>>2815607
most of that landmass is undeveloped which makes exploring the resources less profitable because of logistics. cutting cost is important for resource based economies

>>2807829
>>2805001
>>2805008
>>2805014
>>2806003

good posts. glad this shit thread is full.

>>2815044
>don't care about your drivel bro, it's very simple to prove you wrong.
So far you've only proven to cling to liberal abstractions without proving anything.

>the USSr never had socialsim, if it did, and if the USSr proves state capitalism leads to socialism, then the USSR shows that socialism leads to neoliberalism, as the USSR collapsed and neoliberalism took over.

Capitalism requires generalized commodity production, which did not exist in the Soviet Union where private property was abolished, anarchy of production was abolished, and the social classes of owners were abolished. The socialization of the economy made capital accumulation impossible, and there was no competition for profit among agricultural cooperatives. Therefore, it was not capitalist. Economic planning in the Soviet Union bore no comparison or resemblance whatsoever to the sale of goods in the market for profit that characterizes capitalism. The modes of production prior to capitalism were not capitalism, so the Soviet Union was neither capitalist nor state capitalism.

The Soviet Union had no elements of state capitalism after the end of the NEP because state capitalism has the same problems as private capitalism, and in the Soviet Union production followed a collective plan rather than selling for profit in the market. There was no financial speculation or methods of accumulating capital. Cooperatives had an exclusive relationship with the state, not competing with each other, with workers receiving the surplus after deductions from the total labor according to their labor and needs in the means of consumption, while the rest was public right returning from society to the worker to meet their needs. If you think that socialism depends on workers receiving the profits from the sale of everything produced in a society of cooperatives that compete with each other, then you are wrong.

Now, regarding the question of neoliberalism, this mode of organization was already used by the bourgeoisie when they realized they didn't need to make concessions to the workers and the profit rate began to decrease. The conflict of class struggle continues even after a revolution implements a socialist economy in a country, since there is the threat of international imperialist capitalism and its reactionary and liberal puppet agents. The workers' gains are destroyed if the imperialist capitalists win against the supremacy of the dictatorship of the proletariat, where the expectation is to plunder public property as spoils of war. Neoliberalism is quite characteristic when the aim is to subjugate a country like a neocolony.

Another mistake here is the issue of small commodity production, which is only common in semi-feudal or underdeveloped countries where industrialization hasn't spread to more isolated rural areas, leaving them cut off from the capitalist market. However, socialism, private capitalism, and state capitalism all eliminate small commodity production by peasants when large-scale production occurs and the isolation of these peasants ends. This is irreversible, so you are wrong on this point as well.

>congrats, you finally understood that the private-state capitalist false dichotomy is retarded

Wrong. Both can coexist in the bourgeois state. The bourgeoisie will use this in circumstances that benefit them, but it's possible that some bourgeois individuals might try to cannibalize state capitalism to try to make a profit for petty interests, even if it's quite unproductive for everyone. This is common in neoliberalism with the financialization of everything, being short-term focused on quick profits. China took advantage of this when neoliberalism spread throughout the world to use state capitalism to gain control of a sovereign national technology, unlike other countries that submitted to neoliberal economic orthodoxy. In any case, state capitalism doesn't need to complement private capitalism; it can be hostile and cause instability to the bourgeois state and can be used in the dictatorship of the proletariat. However, this must be done to socialize the economy and acquire economic sovereignty as quickly as possible, acquiring knowledge, tools, technologies, and means of production for a country to be self-sufficient. This is because it will still have all the problems of capitalism that will lead counter-revolutionaries to try to overthrow the dictatorship of the proletariat and end the supremacy of the proletariat.

It's important to remember that this is only a problem in semi-feudal countries. If capitalism has already spread throughout the country, then socialization will be much faster, leading directly to a socialist economy because there will already be means of production to be seized and no isolated part of the population.

>economic sovereignty of whom?

For the proletarian state, which is the dictatorship of the proletariat, acquiring complete financial sovereignty would mean nationalizing all banks and socializing the country's finances with its own currency before the abolition of money, in addition to obtaining a public monopoly for foreign exchange. Food sovereignty means socializing seeds, tools, fertilizers, and chemical production so that a country is not at the mercy of capitalist blackmail. Technological sovereignty means having its own national technology without being at the mercy of multinationals abroad that will blackmail a country that does not have sovereign technology. Energy sovereignty means having control over its energy production, not being at the mercy of capitalists and not depending on imports. Industrial sovereignty would be having a national industry with its own technology so as not to be at the mercy of capitalists.

All this results in economic sovereignty for the workers to control the means of production in order to organize a socialist economy through economic planning. It's clear that the more deindustrialized a country is, lacking the tools to use state capitalism and the means of production, the more problems there will be, requiring more drastic actions by communists to socialize the economy.

>China doesn0t have state capitalism, China has a mixed model where private capitalism exists and is allowed to exist.

Wrong. The Chinese government directs the economy with state-owned enterprises; this is characteristic of state capitalism. This is useful for implementing public policies that can be used for various purposes in the economy. Of course, there is private capitalism in China. Other capitalist countries, following neoliberal orthodoxy, consider it taboo to take advantage of the full potential of state capitalism. This is denied for ideological reasons by the bourgeois class in the West because they do not question neoliberal economic orthodoxy. China uses this for its own benefit, taking advantage of this type of situation.


>And yet you want to give capitalism state power by implementing state capitalism lol

State capitalism facilitates the democratization of the economy with monopolization, public participation, and by removing the illusions of the masses regarding a separation of politics and economics. This gives the means of production and tools to the workers to socialize the economy more easily and suffer less risk of sabotage and manipulation by capitalists, benefiting the communist cause. A country undergoing a revolution can be threatened by capitalist imperialism abroad to prevent the revolution if there is no economic sovereignty, which will be exploited by counter-revolutionaries.

Remembering that the conditions for a revolutionary situation are different in each country where the bourgeoisie has more stable or more unstable control, with some having greater intensification of the exploitation of their workers, there is also the problem of uneven development, and so the communist revolution will overthrow the bourgeois state to implement the proletarian state. One cannot depend on international bourgeois organizations abroad; alternative international socialist organizations will have to be created as alternatives. It is clear that the objective is the supremacy of socialist hegemony to end all bourgeois institutions, private property, market competition, and social classes.

You are forgetting that the communist position is to oppose giving any repressive power to the bourgeois state so that it enters into crisis and collapse, to arm the workers so that popular militias in workers' self-defense committees can disarm class enemies such as owners and their counter-revolutionary agents so that the proletarian class acquires its supremacy.

>you are retarded, I never said this.

Every time you talk about a fascist threat that is supposedly different from neoliberal imperialist capitalism, which for you would be a lesser evil, you are indeed serving finance capital as a useful idiot.

>Brazil's own industrialization ended up being appropriated by the neoliberal period of Collor and Cardoso. State capitalism is socializing investment and privatizing profits. History shows this; feel free to prove this wrong, something you haven't been able to do for days.

Fernando Henrique Cardoso is when neoliberalism consolidates in Brazil, completing what Collor did not complete. But the bourgeoisie had already been rebelling against the citizen constitution of the new Republic since the constitution was written. Article 192, in its original wording, stipulated that real interest rates could not exceed 12% per year. This aimed to protect the productive sector and citizens from financial speculation, and this law was emptied to serve financial capital from its inception. Brazil's industrialization was subservient to the United States and dependent on it since the Vargas government. Perhaps if it weren't for the coup that brought about by the military junta, Brazil could have followed a more neutral path in the Cold War and could have leveraged state capitalism to achieve a level of technological and industrial sovereignty, if the Brazilian left hadn't been so naive in underestimating the US puppets in Brazil who were conspiring.

With the Washington Consensus, neoliberalism is eventually forced by finance capital as if it were common sense to intensify the exploitation and deindustrialization of countries like Brazil. However, this doesn't change the fact that state capitalism can be used against private property, and that the Brazilian left has never been able to take advantage of the potential of state capitalism to democratize the economy, build dual power, and prepare for revolutionary situations. This is because state-owned enterprises can be used to compete against private companies at a low price, and because politics, not separated from economics, cannot be so easily hidden from the masses when state capitalism is in place.

Brazilian state capitalism was hindering the interests of financial capital, which had been rebelling since the beginning of the new republic. It was constantly dismantling and cutting funds from state-owned companies so they could be privatized and siphoned off by private companies. These companies then used the modern equipment that had been kept unused on purpose to spread false propaganda to the masses, claiming that private companies were superior to public ones. Because this equipment was handed over to the company that bought the public companies, the administration constantly sabotaged these public companies by choosing individuals with conflicts of interest, serving the interests of private companies, thus sabotaging public companies and always taking advantage of austerity measures. The left in Brazil has always governed with a minority in the Chamber of Deputies, which is another factor. Although reformists, in my opinion, are unable to reverse financialization because they fear conflict and chaos and believe in class conciliation instead of using everything as a weapon against the bourgeoisie and to intensify the class struggle.

>so it didn't have state capitalism then

The cooperative sector during the NEP was part of state capitalism. With the end of the NEP, and with these cooperatives no longer able to compete with each other due to their exclusive relationship with the state and with equalization, they became part of the socialist economy along with state farms. Although it would be better if all cooperatives were collective enterprises belonging to the whole society, like state farms.

>projection

A person like you who fantasizes about a fascist threat and clings to neoliberalism, thinking that imperialist capitalism, through submission to finance capital, is separate from the fascism you hate as if it were a lesser evil against "fascist statism," is a liberal wanting to co-opt the masses to serve finance capital as a useful idiot, denying the tools that communists can use and the propaganda they could spread.

>I have the entire history of the XXth century on my side, you have quotemined wall of texts.

And I affirm that the entire history of the 20th century is on my side instead of yours. You simply use the liberal "common sense" of what 20th-century history is without any reference to or confrontation with the bourgeois narrative or adjacent groups co-opted to it who do not wish to use "authoritarianism" to spread revolutionary terror and gain power. I, too, am not afraid to cause chaos in the bourgeois state to prepare for the revolutionary situation, but you are afraid of this.
I have scientific socialist texts on my side, and you have none.

>and that gave rise to the US Empire, so your multipolarity theory falls flat on it's face when we study the XXth century

Wrong. The rise of the American empire depended on the integration of the various bourgeoisies of the world using the communist threat against the workers of the world. Currently there is no socialist power acting to create a socialist hegemony. The current proletarian democracies are in isolated defense, which means that it is necessary to cause chaos so that the capitalists do not work together to give more opportunity for communists of the world to act. Even during the Cold War, the Soviet Union encouraged countries to remain neutral, helping them to industrialize and achieve economic sovereignty, while the United States made concessions to various countries in an attempt to preserve capitalism. Currently, these concessions no longer exist with the Washington Consensus, so multipolarity is necessary until another socialist bloc forms.

>says the guy that implies that state capitalism and the empowerment of third world bourgeois advances communism lol

The use of state capitalism does not mean that the bourgeoisie of the third world would be strengthened, although countries having more equal relations could be said to be relatively stronger internationally, but a comprador bourgeoisie also has its level of security and strength as part of the financial capitalist empire subjugating the neocolony. The use of state capitalism can reduce social inequality and intensify class struggle as cooperatives advance along with the democratization of the economy, which depends on breaking the illusion of separation between politics and economics. Private capitalism maintains the illusion, while state capitalism is much more difficult to convince the masses because neoliberal politics, which pretends to be outside of politics, is unable to maintain its illusions and sell its programs to the masses, having to act stealthily to carry out its program.

Having several countries with more sovereign economies and equal relations also leads to more instability where proletarians can seize the means of production. Furthermore, these capitalists will not constantly act against each other due to various conflicts of interest and lack the means to intimidate or integrate each other into some capitalist imperialist plan against socialists. This will make sanctions less effective, giving the new proletarian state time to acquire what is necessary to socialize the economy, benefiting the communist cause because the masses cannot remain passive.

A unipolar world is much more capable of preventing communists and overthrowing revolution in the most unstable points of the empire, which can be isolated and neutralized with the cooperation of the world bourgeoisie. A multipolar world has fewer means of making countries accept patents and respect intellectual property, which will benefit communists in acquiring the economic sovereignty necessary to organize a socialist economy.

I am thinking of all the factors that exist before the revolution, during the revolution, during the consolidation of the dictatorship of the proletariat, during the socialization of the economy, and in preparing for the communist revolution in the world. You don't think about this; you probably believe in a fantasy that out of nowhere the world's workers will try to start a world revolution by implanting communism in the world without questioning that this is an idealistic fantasy.

>>2815044
>the interests of capitalists is to mantain the dictatorship of the bourgeosie in place, they are willing to cooperate with each other before allowing for communists to take power, Iran collaborating with MI6 to persecute communists is proof of this, yet again, you do not understand the history of the XXth century, so you don't know what this means
You are only thinking about the bourgeoisie in one country, in the case of Iran and the United States. There are many other bourgeois countries that have conflicting interests. The more sovereignty there is among the various countries of the world, the easier it will be to exchange technologies and tools. Furthermore, during the Cold War, the United States was uniting all capitalist countries as the hegemony that represents capitalist interests, while the Soviet Union tried to maintain the socialist pole by helping other countries become technologically independent or advance socialism.

During the Cold War, there was the aid offered by the socialist bloc and concessions offered by the United States, which no longer exists. Other bourgeois groups may clash with each other in a multipolar world or submit, collaborating within a unipolar order. Acquiring the technology necessary to organize a socialist economy is much more difficult in a unipolar world, which will organize itself to prevent any socialist revolution in various ways, taking advantage of the dollar's dominance to attack this proletarian state. This is not possible in a multipolar world where, if a capitalist's petty interest in the short term attempts to make a deal with socialists, there will be no means to prevent it, unlike a unipolar world that can punish renegade capitalists by isolating them, intimidating them, and minimizing this type of behavior.

>No they don't lol

They do prove it. I accept your concession. lol

>No country today needs a NEP, no country today needs to be rapidlyu developed to have socialism, we already have the technology to implement communism, it's 2026 not 1917

I'm not writing about replicating the NEP, I'm writing about the use of state-owned enterprises to intensify the class struggle, encourage the democratization of the economy so that workers can participate more in it, breaking more illusions of the bourgeois state, prevent costs from being passed on to workers, accelerate the fall in the rate of profit and build dual power before the revolutionary situation and during the dictatorship of the proletariat, accelerate the socialization of the economy. This is not the same as the NEP and will not be as long as it.

I often recommend this if a country is deindustrialized, lacking industries and refining industries, if it's a country that exports raw materials and depends on imported products due to financialization and neoliberal deindustrialization, and in various other areas of the economy. Instead of making overpriced contracts for the enrichment of capitalists, state-owned companies can compete against these private companies, which will help develop national public technologies to give greater technological sovereignty to countries that are constantly blackmailed by capitalists who control the technologies.

This, to me, is very useful and practical for attacking private property and breaking through the fog of neoliberal and capitalist propaganda for the masses. The masses will not see this as something distant, and it can be used as propaganda for socialization, in addition to making workers understand all the technologies they produce because having technological sovereignty minimizes sabotage by capitalists who control these technologies and minimizes the blackmail and manipulations they can carry out. Of course, I'm not naive enough not to consider that this will create a reaction from capitalists, but this is what will intensify the class struggle I'm talking about, even if these types of demands exist only as propaganda. In Brazil, capitalists are constantly attacking, demanding privatization and the destruction of workers' rights, attacking even the minimum that the constitution gives to workers, so why can't communists do the opposite?

This will demonstrate what it means to be an "outsider" to those who are deceived by false "rebels," lackeys of finance capital who pretend to be the alternative to the status quo.

Tell me if you think the technology to produce electronics and various machines is available in current peripheral countries? I would say no. This means that after a communist revolution, a country would have to find a way to produce everything domestically and understand how it's done, not to mention the risk of sabotage when you depend on technology controlled by multinational companies that keep their industrial secrets and collaborate with capitalist imperialism. Or do you think this is available to any country?

>>2815045
>just like your theory is outdate in relation to the experiences of the XXth century
You remain wrong with no proof.

>yes, state capitalism will be used to kill proless in a war, why do you think this proves your point?

Class war will also kill proletarians, this changes nothing. You act as if the proletarian class is an identity to cling to sentimentally. All obstacles to the supremacy of the proletariat must be eliminated no matter how many have to die. Here you are again demonstrating a desire for stability in the capitalist system, whining in fear of suffering, wanting stability instead of chaos so that the masses are forced to accept communism as the only solution with the breaking of all bourgeois illusions.


>good, if the European and American causes the collapse of Russia, then it means Russia can engage in revolutionary defeatism


Wrong. All communist revolutions occurred in countries that were allied with the major capitalist powers when they fell. Was there a communist revolution in the Triple Alliance? There wasn't.

Furthermore, there is no communist power currently facilitating revolutions like the Soviet Union. Russia is helping both Cuba and North Korea, therefore it is playing a progressive role. It is breaking the patent order, which is useful for communists to access alternative technologies to the American-European imperialist capitalist infrastructure, and it is fighting a puppet of finance capital that was attempted to be replicated in Brazil (where they failed) but succeeded in Ukraine. The Ukrainian communist party also depends on the collapse of the Ukrainian government.

Everything suggests there are no forces for a revolutionary situation in Russia because the opposition is under the control of finance capital, which would immediately ban communists, just as in Ukraine. As Lenin said, communists cannot be subservient to spontaneity, and as Marx and Engels said, the communist party must be independent of the bourgeoisie. However, you claim to be from Mexico and are literally advocating for the neo-Nazi puppet government of Ukraine to benefit the finance capital of the same bourgeoisie that controls Mexico. I would say you are serving capitalist imperialism by not asking your country to cut all financing for weapons and foreign loans. Remember that the collapse of Russia will reverse the rate of profit, decreasing the profits that finance capital will obtain from a new neocolony, and will also make countries respect intellectual property more, as finance capital will more easily prevent violators.

Just as Marx accepted Irish separatism because of English chauvinism, communists can accept the separatism of Russian regions of Ukraine because of Ukrainian chauvinism, which has been used since the 2014 coup against the rights of minorities that existed since Soviet Ukraine. Since Ukraine bans communists, it has no use other than having its government destroyed.

I don't live in Russia, but I recognize that it is useful for communists to destroy bourgeois institutions that are obstacles to their advancement. The Ukrainian government is one of these obstacles that will have no strength to resist communists upon collapsing and losing all Western support. A Russia subservient to the West will have all the support of the West to fight communists. You cannot forget that the Paris Commune occurred at an unfavorable moment when the French Empire lost the Franco-Prussian War; eventually, the two countries were able to coordinate against the Paris Commune. The Russian October Revolution occurred in the midst of World War I, with the warring countries, such as those in the Triple Alliance, occupied, and Germany being the weaker power compared to the British Empire, which had just lost its ally.

But I thought the history of the USSR proved your point correct, are you cherry-picking now?
No. Russia is only a hypothetical minor threat if it gets in the way of communists in specific situations and if the contradictions it has with American and European imperialist capitalism end up happening in the case of the United States and Europe reconciling with Russia to focus against China and deciding to respect Russian capitalism in order to integrate them into this American and European imperialist order against the rest of the world, in this case Russia will no longer be useful, but currently this is not happening, so I see no reason to stop those who are being useful for communists to abolish bourgeois freedoms and bring chaos to bourgeois institutions that are obstacles for communists.

Don't forget that Tsarist Russia was allied with the British Empire, which was the greatest imperialist capitalist power in the world at the time. Currently, this would mean being allied with the United States, and who is allied with the United States and its vassal? Ukraine and the European countries are the answer, and therefore they are the logical target.

>2 more weeks I guess right?

This means the world situation is becoming increasingly favorable for the communist cause to act in the world with the advancement of a multipolar world. I don't see anything wrong with that.

>I already did, you claim that state capitalism leads to socialism, and this is wrong, because in the XXth century, state capitalist led to neoliberalism, the USSR collapsed and it turned into neoliberalism, Brazil engaged in neoliberal reforms after state capitalism, history proves your theory wrong.

Wrong. State capitalism is useful for socializing the economy, and this occurred in the Soviet Union, leading to a socialist economy with the end of the NEP, but every defeat of the dictatorship of the proletariat against the capitalist imperialist classes will eventually lead to capitalism, with the decrease in profit rates and less risk of a communist threat leading the bourgeoisie to implement neoliberal policies.

The case of China proves that state capitalism is superior to private capitalism, and the case of Brazil only saw the use of state capitalism in attempts to develop the country independently during the Vargas government, and perhaps only if the Brazilian coup d'état of 1964 failed. In all these cases, I realized that naiveté and fear of being authoritarian, believing in class conciliation, were to blame for a coup d'état occurring and succeeding. It's worth remembering that Fernando Henrique Cardoso's neoliberal policies, such as the macroeconomic tripod, can be reversed, and there are always state-owned companies that can be expanded and utilized, not to mention that new state-owned companies can be created along the way while preparing for a revolutionary situation.

Communists in Brazil always have proposals to create more state-owned companies to compete against private companies; in any case, I see no problem with that.

>So a capitalist nation that is preparing for war (fascism) it will use state capitalism because it is more efficient

You are wrong again. A capitalist country preparing for war is not fascism. Any bourgeois democracy can prepare for war, start a war, and serve imperialist capitalism. You, who do not know the Marxist definition of fascism, therefore remain wrong. Any type of country can use state capitalism, or do you think that the public companies that the Nazis used, deregulated, and privatized during World War II and the interwar period were not created by social democrats and conservatives during the bourgeois democracy of the Weimar Republic?

Other bourgeois democracies also used state capitalism in war and outside of it without being fascist, so you are wrong.

>>2815646
Russia has literally the largest amount resources on earth, Russians could have been the richest people in the world if they had a competent democratic government instead of a fascist oligarchy that steals resources to fund wars and oligarchs vacations

>>2815642
are you asking why people pointlessly and angrily argue on the internet? I mean that's what the internet is for

>>2805001
So you admit Russia invaded Ukraine to steal it's trillion dollar minerals? and that's different from NATO how exactly? ziggers too dumb to realize their own arguments work against them
>>2807829
>Dumb zigger cries about NATO expansion and imperalism while simultaneously promotes Russian expansion and imperalism
fuck off zigger nazi, ruskyi mir is Russias Lebensraum

>>2805008
>this isn't Russia invading Ukraine
Putin was literally on live TV announcing the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. Braindead zigger bots still trying to gaslight people with Kremlin talking points

saw someone say "zigger" in the wild

crazy shit out there

>>2816392
What, like IRL or on another website?

>>2815723
>>2815724
>>2815788
>You don't understand what state capitalism is. State capitalism means controlling the market with public companies so that capitalism within a country goes in a certain direction.
I know what state capitalism is, as I communist I oppose it.
>This facilitates public policies where eventually a national bourgeoisie develops and foreign capital remains under control.
Proof?
>In Brazil, unlike the state capitalism of the Vargas period, the Second Republic, the military business junta, and the New Republic, there was a dependent industrialization with a more limited state capitalism to support the interests of capitalists, which eventually led to problems that Brazilian left-wing developmentalists failed to understand.
So the state-caputalist period of Vargas lead to privatization and neoliberalism, this proves my point right, the establishment of state capitalism, if it empowers the national bourg, results in privatization policies and deindustrialization under the direction of the national bourg. Again, this is evidence that YOUR position is wrong, not mine, I DO NOT wish to empower nat bourgs, you do.
>here is no possible agreement between the national bourgeoisie and labor to reindustrialize the country when everything has already been financialized.
Again, this argument is AGAINST YOUR IDEOLOGY, when you empower the national bourg, the end up gaining power and influencez and instead of engaging in socialism they privatize state enterprises and deindustrialize.
>This means that to reindustrialize a country there must at least be the use of state capitalism and state-owned enterprises to force reindustrialization, using these enterprises to compete against private companies, no matter how many go bankrupt, to facilitate occupations, nationalizations, collectivizations, and socializations because capitalists will only speculate in the financial market anyway, and therefore only communists have solutions.
Again, why do we need to re-industrialize if we already had a period of industrialization under Vargas government? How are we sure that the national bourgs won't sabotage any attempt at establishing socialism?
>Of course, the intensification of this antagonism with class struggle will bring crises and a revolutionary situation to carry out the revolution
Proof?
>but the workers at least have to see a path and not be complacent about what to do before the revolutionary situation and during the dictatorship of the proletariat to socialize the economy.
What is the path if we just established that state capitalism doesn’t work then?

>You continue to be wrong.

No, you do.
>State capitalism can be used to support private capitalism, but it can also be used to intensify class struggle and democratize the economy.
Proof?
>This will cause the bourgeoisie to react negatively, bringing chaos and intensifying class struggle to prepare for a revolutionary situation, as well as giving workers experience in participating in the economy to eventually form a Red Guard to defend the interests of the working class.
Proof?

Now I discuss your last two posts:.
You obviously have no interest in having a constructive exchange, I have asked you several times to engage in a materialist analysis of history to prove your thesis and you have refused to do so. I asked you before to prove that nationalization policies come from national bourgs having control of key sectors of the economy vs foreign, as that would be reason enough to support multipoltarity by empowering the national bourg, and you have not done that. I asked you to provide proof that nationalization results in socialism and not neoliberalism, and you have refused to provide proof besides >muh USSR despite the fact that the USSR proves state capitalism does not lead to socialism but rather neoliberalism (when the USSR fell). You also claim that these statements, which you treat as axiomatic are proved by >muh text despite the fact that even Marx himself states in the 1872 preface that the results of the Paris commune prove that political strategy isn't solid and must change depending on the historical conditions. You also show to change the subject as a way to ignore the fact that you refuse to provide proof whenever your arguments are challenged.
From now on I am just copying and pasting your wall of texts into an LLM and asking it to give me a resume of the most important points. I am not going to lose my time when you come up with such retarded arguments as to claim that a capitalist country arming itself to engage in a landgrab war where civilians are attacked isn't fascism.

Here's what the LLM told me:
>1. The USSR was not capitalist or “state capitalist”. The text argues that the Soviet Union did not meet the definition of capitalism because: There was no generalized commodity production. Private property and capitalist classes were abolished. Production followed a central plan, not profit-driven markets.
This is incorrect, the abolition of capitalism isn't merely defined in such manner. First of all, as of today, it is irrelevant if the USSR had socialism or not, because the USSR collapsed, if the USSR had socialism then such manner of reaching socialism has proven to be ineffective. Second, during what years did the USSR had socialism, I ask you this so I can pin point policies, systems and relationships between the people in government and the working class and analyze if it was really socialism.

>2. State capitalism is a tool to reach socialism. The author argues that state capitalism can be useful, especially in developing or post-revolutionary countries, to: Build economic and technological sovereignty. Strengthen control over industry, finance, and resources. Prepare conditions for full socialist transformation.

Again, where is the proof of this? The USSR? see above. Not only that, how are you replying to the argument that nationalization policies in the developing lead to privatization and neoliberalism?

>3. Neoliberalism and capitalist restoration come from defeat, not from socialism itself The text claims that when countries like the USSR shifted to neoliberalism, it was because: The proletarian system was defeated by internal/external capitalist forces. Not because socialism “naturally leads” to neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is framed as a tool of imperialism to dominate weaker countries, not a natural evolution.

This is an argument against your ideology and the way you wish to organize a strategy to fight socialism. Capitalist restoration came from defeat, explain to me how are we avoiding such defeat again?

>>2818577
socialism is a process not a static set of policies


Unique IPs: 23

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo / 420 ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]