Russia had no good reason to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has good reason to resist Russian occupation but should be open to ceding territory in return for peace if possible. I do not buy that the Far-Right parties around the world that defend this invasion were actually le based prole-pilled geniuses the entire time. Prove me wrong.
You've done it now OP. The campists and psyops agents will be here very shortly.
>>2804238> should be open to ceding territory in return for peace if possibleif that happens what's keeping russia from recovering and invading yet again?
>>2804253It seems like their only option. If they keep going their front lines will collapse and all of Ukraine will be occupied by Russia. It seems preferable for them to try and end the war now despite the risks rather than face what is likely certain defeat.
>>2804260if they give russia a chance to recover all the sacrifice they've made is for nought as they will end up fighting a stronger russia
unless they can get some actual security guarantees they needn't sue for anything
>>2804263It's not ideal but unless they have some kind of ace up their sleeve I don't see any other option for Ukraine than to just hope Russia deems invading the rest of Ukraine to be too much of a hassle to bother with. One could make the same argument, that peace would just be broken later, to oppose any peace deal other than something insane and unrealistic like Ukrainian control of all of Russia.
>>2804253Not much really but even annexation would be preferable to throwing millions of men into the woodchipper while the country gets sold to asset management companies. It's not like there's a difference between the two regimes anyway. The Ukrainians were retarded for even antagonizing Russia in the first place. After they're through assisting 60 year olds in mass suicide and causing a mass exodus of people to Poland and Germany, only armed bands of neo-nazis and resource extraction companies will be left. All this for muh nation.
>>2804269Ukraine will not be improved whatsoever by being under Russian control, if anything it will be made worse.
>>2804273It will be worse either way. Tbh there's no normative answer for this situation
it made sense in terms of realpolitik imho, If I'm one of the statesman in charge the military alliance that exists fuck me over toppled the government of neighbor and started flooding it with money,weapons and neonazis I'd be inclined intervene too. That being said if the Russian Federation was motivated purely by protecting the russian diaspora in the region than why not invade the Baltics that literally have a predominantly russian underclass of noncitizens with no political rights.
>>2804312they're in a club called nato
better question: if russia is so concerned with russian diaspora why not just bring it home?
>Prove me wrong.
I'm guessing the fact this thread exists means you already were in the general
>>2804269Ethnonationalists having too much influence or power is unironically the worst thing that can happen to nation and the fastest way to destroy a nation-state.
>>2804315>better question: if russia is so concerned with russian diaspora why not just bring it home?Because Ukraine doesn't have any more right to displacing undesirables than Israel does.
>>2804312Russia has nuclear weapons and thus cannot be attacked by NATO, this rationale was always bunk.
It's not retarded, it's completely understandeable and predictable if you are a Marxist. Russia needed to expand its market so that it could maintain imperialism, and so got into conflict with a colony of the EU and American imperialist spheres. The Russian imperialists didn't have another choice, especially after Assad fell, apart from Africa which also would mean getting into conflict with the French / EU and where they generally have much less influence.
>>2804324the question was: why doesn't russia reel the diasporas back in not why doesn't ukraine (or anyone else) expulse russian immigrants
>>2804238Russia did have good reason to invade Ukraine, but they're paying an unreasonably high price. In hindsight it was clearly a bad decision.
>>2804337Ukrainian communists are the retarded ones for not acting as a patriotic force fighting off the American, EU and Russian imperialists. Instead they could not adapt to becoming illegal and fascism took over the entire country. In fact communists in all post-socialist countries are retarded for somehow managing to do worse than others despite being in countries superstructurally primed for socialism. I blame it all on the decrepit social-imperialist soviet revisionism which turned genuine socialism into sculptures of it made of dust, that have since blown away on the wind of history.
>>2804340You said
>if russia is so concerned with russian diasporathe reason for concern is Ukraine trying to displace them, so you've asked why hasn't Russia obliged Ukraine and helped them to that end.
>russian immigrantsReal talk, how much about this situation do you know? Other than it involving Russians and therefore Zionism is okay?
The Russian invasion literally started the current revolutionary shift against US unipolar hegemony. Before it was all talk and non-state actors.
>>2804342in half the former eastern block countries communism is seen as foreign and hostile as it was forced by soviet occupation if anything they're the worst primed for it
>>2804312If Russia actually had intentions to deal with the Neo-Nazi problem they'd have started with their own country.
>>2804238>Russia had no good reason to invade UkraineCounterpoint: falling rate of profit
>>2804341>Russia did have good reason to invade UkraineImperialism is not a good reason.
>>2804238>Ukraine has good reason to resist Russian occupation but should be open to ceding territory in return for peace if possible.I've held this position and thought since before the war started that Ukraine should give up on Crimea.
>>2804260>If they keep going their front lines will collapse and all of Ukraine will be occupied by Russia.People have been saying this for years but the problem for Russia is that the Russian army is bad at war, because the Russian army like everything else is a feature of the political system, it's not organized with some great military goal in mind, the country is run by apolitical boomer larpers who don't believe in anything and don't care. That's kinda it really. The entire scheme is just dumb, a bunch of light infantry battalions dying in a moronic slaughter fest. Weeb War III. Four years in and Russian industry in the Urals is being attacked by cruise missiles (from the other day).
>>2804269>After they're through assisting 60 year olds in mass suicide and causing a mass exodus of people to Poland and Germany, only armed bands of neo-nazis and resource extraction companies will be left. All this for muh nation.It's getting turned from a nation state into a Palantir-led robotized frontier Wild Fields 2.0:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Fields >>2804238Finally someone gets that an imperialist land-grab by an oligarchic country ran by someone who happens to be a Zionist is actually a bad thing
Honestly Russia always finds a way to nearly rope itself such as 1905 or kill itself like 1917. This war is going to domino into the RSFSR coming back especially with the forced economic changes the Russian Federation is doing and will end with the capitalist getting overthrown again due to incompetence
>>2804273An underdiscussed possibility of Russian victory in Ukraine is an enormous growth in power for Far-Right groups, which achieved power in the first place because of the power struggle in Ukraine between Russia and the West. At any rate, Russian victory in Ukraine means horrific extended guerrila war of Azovites with sizable public support. Nazism in Ukraine is a huge problem both among seperatists and nationalists and Russia has made the situation far worse by invading. As we saw in Iraq, invasion and occupation of an evil government by an imperialist power for the purpose of resource extraction just creates more chaos and instability without actually solving anything.
>>2804312>it made sense in terms of realpolitik imho, If I'm one of the statesman in charge and the Islamic terrorist groups that exist to fuck me over toppled the twin towers and started flooding Afghanistan with terrorists and Islamists I'd be inclined to intervene too.>>2804309Instability in a Capitalist state is not a good thing when it lacks any chance of Communist revolution. It's just violent and horrific, like Medieval civil wars. No way to exploit the chaos to create a better world, just lots of dead bodies.
>>2804345The Russian invasion of Ukraine was an enormous boost to the West because it was a ludicrously retarded decision that allowed the West to easily position themselves in the eyes of much of the world as the defenders of national sovereignty (Not that this is an accurate view of the West). Also how fucking DARE you take away credit from the brave Palestinian resistance and give it to that FAGGOT Putin, Sinwar's ghost should haunt you for the rest of your life. The Palestinian resistance created the current revolutionary shift, DESPITE Putin's abject failure.
>>2804353If Russian so-called "Imperialism" seizes resources previously imperialised by the west, its worth any cost.
>>2804445The deaths of hundreds of thousands of people is not a worthwhile or reasonable sacrifice for resources to go from the larger imperialist power to the smaller imperialist power
>>2804374>This war is going to domino into the RSFSR coming back especially with the forced economic changes the Russian Federation is doing and will end with the capitalist getting overthrown again due to incompetencegod I wish you were right
>>2804452Hundreds of thousands of mostly hohols.
>>2804238I have a lot of complex feelings about this. This war has shown the true faces of many people. There are those who do apologia for naked Russian imperialism. I don't understand those on the left who do this, as they don't seem to understand that, firstly, anti-imperialism is anti-imperialism, no matter who is doing it, but secondly, whatever clusterfuck of an ideology Russia has nowadays (I just call it Putinist cause it's easiest) is a lot of things. Mainly: VERY CONTRADICTORY, and NOT LEFT WING!
Contrarywise, I also saw another group who seems to get off on the idea of seeing Russia destroyed and humiliated. I don't understand the so-called "liberals" who want this. Roosevelt, the (in my opinion) premier and shining example of the model liberal wanted lasting peace without inflicting suffering on the people. Roosevelt didn't cause the civilians of Germany to starve and suffer because of their government's bad actions, even inaction was all it would take to cause that. He had plausible deniability and the perfect environment to do that, and he didn't. He made sure that the German people didn't starve.
So, why would these liberals want to punish Russia in a way that was considered to extreme for liberals 80 years ago to do to FUCKING NAZI GERMANY?
>>2804460and these are not humans, proletarians, etc?
what is putins opinion of gamgergate though? you think he liked depression quest?
>>2804413But in the case of Afghanistan it was US funding the islamists not the USSR or PRC, Ukraine would be like if Canada was overthrown by chinese backed militias in 2014 and started shelling Windsor and Niagara falls. That being said I do agree a lot the justifications you see from russian intelligensia sound a lot like bush era neocons. I too am also concerned with a post-war ukraine leading to ISIS for white people lashing out on civilians all over the place.
>>2804579>the prc didn't fund the mujahadeenactually they did, in fact they did so precisely because their ally pakistan was doing so and because the soviets were doing it
>>2804463Roosevelt was happy to bomb civilian targets in both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. You don't understand how those wars were fought. You think they cared about collateral damage? No. Japan was being firebombed nightly before the nukes were even dropped. Germany was flattened before the Soviets even entered Berlin. Curtis LeMay, who proposed nuking Vietnam during the Vietnam War, worked under Roosevelt.
>>2804581ngl I completely forgot about that, I've also heard a counter claim they were only funding Maoists but I have no idea if that is remotely true or not
>>2804238Millions of people dying in a pointless meat grinder is akchally a 5D chess move that owns the libs.
>>2804445>Moscow imperialism GOODNo, all imperialism is bad. Also why do Ukrainians deserve this? Did they have an empire? No they didn't.
>>2804515You're probably replying to a paid propagandist who is sitting in Saint Petersburg.
>>2804690nta but you dodged the question and your rhetoric is utterly indistinguishable from votebluenomatterwho resistance winemom libshit. that should give you some pause
>>2804700>you dodged the questionI thought it was a rhetorical question. Yes Ukrainians are human beings - even a child can tell you that.
>your rhetoric is utterly indistinguishable from votebluenomatterwhoAnybody who slurs Ukrainians as "hohols" is either a paid pro-Kremlin propagandist or a fucking idiot who spreads Kremlin propaganda for free.
>>2804579>But in the case of Afghanistan it was US funding the islamists not the USSR or PRCActually the PRC helped the Mujahideen. And I'm completely aware of how the Taliban was the result of blowback but that doesn't change the fact that the war in Afghanistan has similar justification to Ukraine.
Putler is a uyghur
>>2804463>This war has shown the true faces of many people. There are those who do apologia for naked Russian imperialism. I don't understand those on the left who do this … Contrarywise, I also saw another group who seems to get off on the idea of seeing Russia destroyed and humiliated. I don't understand the so-called "liberals" who want this.It's just power worship. It's very easy to fall into it because of human psychology, and people end up sinking their own individuality into some larger power bloc, and their thinking ends up revolving around an obsession with triumphs of their own side and humiliations for the other side, it becomes "unthinkable" to accept that one's own bloc is on the downgrade. The liberals are like this because they hate and fear Russia, while others hate America including people on the left because they identify America with having taken their dreams away when the Soviet Union collapsed. But it's possible that the outcome of the war is an acceleration of the decline of the larger shared zone that used to comprise the USSR.
Anyways this leads to some interesting contradictions, for example there's panic about a Russian threat to Europe, but how much of that is actually backed by a real capability now given Russia's poor performance in Ukraine. Meanwhile, the U.S. has just performed poorly against Iran. The amount of damage Iran inflicted on U.S. bases in the Middle East was much greater than the U.S. admitted. It's highly unlikely that both Russia and the U.S. can actually achieve a real decisive victory in the 21st century against smaller countries willing to resist. Smaller, "weaker" countries have proven they can resist the bigger powers. Ukraine can resist Russia, but one of the biggest "winners" of the Ukraine war in relative terms might not be Ukraine or Russia, but North Korea. But you might not want to underestimate South Korea either. The angry Chihuahuas of the world are rising up.
North Korea is kinda the biggest winner though, which is kinda based.
>putin is a retard
more at 11
>>2804777JUCHE BOY SUMMER
>>2804777Thanks Putler for being retarded enough to dilapidate ammo and manpower so much that the DPRK could leverage that into sanction lifting
>>2804777>an authoritarian state which deprives its people of political liberty and basics such as food so they starve to death is "based"Leftism is supposed to support ordinary struggling people, not authoritarian leaders who live in luxury
>>2804839The people in NK are getting more fucked by the sanctions of the imperialist security council than their leadership though, until Russia kinda broke with the tradition when they desperately needed shells and meat for the grinder.
>>2804843I'm not talking about propaganda, I'm talking about the truth. Authoritarianism is bad. I believe in ordinary people having rights, and healthcare, and food, and being able to protest against their government if they wish.
>>2804845It could well be true that actions of the US and others are hurting ordinary North Koreans, but that doesn't justify North Korea's authoritarian government.
>>2804850Kind of sad that you don't recognise the contradiction between
>The US and its allies are hurting ordinary North Koreans<The DPRK government is the way it is because it's just authoritarianIf you're under attack, you're not being authoritarian by taking measures against that. No one claims that the Western Powers in WW2 were authoritarians when punishing anyone with lose lips or acting in ways that make their loyalties questionable.
>>2804850You are mind broken, we tried to genocide North Korea and you moan about how they have prisons.
>>2804843I know this isn't really the point of this post, but wow the picture on the left is pretty. How come the Eastern Bloc buildings were so butt ugly while a much poorer nation has such beautiful architecture.
>>2804878because those krushvevks were thrown up in a rush. pyongyang used to look the same, but in the past 10-15 years they've done a lot of progress in beautifying the city.
>>2804895The collective west that shrugged its shoulders at the division of Korea and the ensuing attempted genocide of it and the massacres carried out in the south by American and Japanese troops.
>>2804899Can you name one thing that has actually improved for any group of proles as a result of this war?
>>2804897the collective west fed norks for most of the last 40 years. back when old man was around around chuseok they'd find out they don't have enough rice to live off so they'd start grumbling about nuclear test or launch a missile into the sea as a means of begging for aid.
division of korea of korea was caused by inconclusive end of korean war. at this point even if kims of choson dismantled their monarchy i doubt whether the southerners would even want to bill the unification.
>>2804905Yeah that’s how historical progress works, you measure it in the immediacy of the outcomes.
I still can’t tell the difference between ruskis and ukes
>>2804911there's overlap but by rule of thumb ukrainians have wider faces and sometimes come in dinarid phenotype while russians often come in east baltoid phenotype with a very narrow face which uncommon anywhere outside russia
hope it helps
>>2804777At least something positive about this.
>>2804741>Ukraine can resist RussiaThey wouldn't be able to without massive western backing. The proxy war angle cannot be ignored.
Not saying the russian federation would be winning if this wasn't the case, modern russia is probably the biggest paper tiger in world history, but Ukraine's "success" is largely a western success.
Iran is also a case of this with their chinese and russian backing, in but considerably smaller in scale since Iran is actually a real player unlike Ukraine.
>>2804238>Russia had no good reason to invade UkraineNATO wanted trillions of dollars of minerals in the donbass region. to this end they expanded towards Ukraine, couped ukraine in 2014, worked with far right elements in the military, and even started a civil war in Ukraine. When this proxy war which started in 2014 became too hot, Russia invaded to back up its allied forces in the separatist regions, and prevent NATO from securing trillions of dollars in minerals and also some of the most fertile soil remaining on earth.
>but what does this have to do with proletarian revolutionnothing, it's just bourgeois geopolitics, but it will prevent the USA and NATO allies from securing trillions of dollars in minerals which are used directly in military hardware leading up to WW3 and the war against China.
>>2804463>i'm gonna pretend the side that's against US imperialism "supports Russian imperialism" when really they're just responding to NATO expansion after other strategies failed<I'm also gonna admit the other side are the actual genocidal war mongersyeah your centrism isn't looking so hot here.
For the millionth time, this isn't "Russia invading Ukraine" But NATO invading first Ukraine, then using it as a puppet against Russia, after all "peaceful" and "respectable" bourgeois strategies failed. You think a glimpse at Yugoslavia in the 1990s would convince you, but no.
>>2804690>No, all imperialism is bad. Also why do Ukrainians deserve this?you're right. ukrainians did not deserve teh USA couping their government, training and arming fascists, using their nation as a puppet in their schemes to expand nato eastward and secure trillions of dollars in minerals, which was the actual inciting incident in the war, and not voldemort putler's evil orc invasion in 2022
>>2804915Are the wider faces why the slur is holhol (which I think means onion or turnip in a literal translation) or is that a reference to hairstyles during the Russian empire?
>>2805014posted it again award
>>2804906it's like I'm really on 4chan's /v/
>>2805017look at the mountains in the back ground and tell me a single on of those things didn't happen and directly contribute to the current situation.
>>2805021I have observed this since 2008 Georgia and 90% of that is fake and gay FSB propaganda ops.
>>2805017i posted it again because you freaks never have a real counter argument about NATO expansion being the real cause of all this, of bourgeois russia and bourgeois ukraine both being creations of NATO after the collapse of the USSR. NATO is forcing two entities it basically created to fight each other because it is hungry for minerals to use against china. like unless you have a real counter argument for that analysis, I'm sticking to it, while you keep falling for the "Russia Vs. Ukraine" framing of the war which objectively acquits NATO, knowingly or not.
>>2804905Russian proles living in the Ukraine are thankful for being saved from genocide
>>2805027How many of them are still alive from this war?
>>2805022>I have observed this since 2008 Georgia and 90% of that is fake and gay FSB propaganda ops.anon, let me get this straight, you are saying
<expansion of NATO after the collapse of the USSR didn't happen , and is FSB propaganda<US-backed privatization under yeltsin didn't happen, and is FSB propaganda<rejecting Russian federation from joining NATO in 2002 didn't happen, and is just FSB propaganda<rejecting USSR from joining NATO in 1954 didn't happen and is FSB propaganda<the USA using the marshall plan to financially rehabilitate fascist-collaborators in west germany didn't happen<2014-2022 shelling of donbass/luhansk by ukraine govt didn't happen not only is all of that true, and reported outside of russia, and even by russia's rivals in some cases, but it is easily verifiable. you're just making allegations you have no proof for.
>>2805028Millions more than there would be if NATO was allowed to finish its bioweapon development
>>2805028>How many of them are still alive from this war?unless the ukrainians push the front line back to the cities in their own territory that they were shelling 2014-2022 in the civil war that NATO provoked, I imagine plenty of them are alive
>>2805022>FSB propaganda those are not only all verifiable historical events, but many of them the FSB has a direct incentive to NOT report because it makes the bourgeois russian government look weak, which is exactly what I am saying. Russia and Ukraine are both weak shells of their former soviet selves, being forced to hit each other for NATO's benefit.
>>2805001Hundreds of thousands of prole deaths in an invasion for the purpose of pillaging Ukraine's resources in order to make sure that another empire with little difference in terms of progress outside of how large they are will not be able to pillage Ukraine's resources. If Russia decided not to help the seperatists and didn't invade then Ukraine wouldn't be facing total collapse and its status as a western puppet state wouldn't even change anyway. And despite my hatred of NATO and the West, who can blame Ukraine for preferring the empire that doesn't want to invade and occupy them over the one that is actively doing that? And of course this difference has nothing to do with morality but rather geopolitics and whatnot, and the West brings their own violence in the form of the Far-Right backed Euromaidan (Not to mention that they're far from blameless in the Donbas war) but the difference is pretty stark and the choice of the vast majority of Ukrainians, including the majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians, to align with the West is unsurprising. Ideally they should recognize that the West seeks only to use them, and the offer of less instability and violence in the pursuit of that (In the immediate sense, anyway. Who knows what vile shit the EU goons have cooking up for Ukraine's future!) is insufficient. Therefore, Ukrainians should fight against Western and Russian influence and act as an independent country that doesn't answer to either imperial bloc. The pipe dream is Communist revolution and the overthrow of all of the bourgeoisie nonsense, but that doesn't seem likely in the immediate sense.
>>2805008>NATO invading first UkraineWords actually do have meanings and backing a coup is not an invasion. A Russian-backed coup in Ukraine, for example, would not be the same thing as killing something like a million people in an invasion.
>>2805012>ukrainians did not deserve teh USA couping their government, training and arming fascists, using their nation as a puppet in their schemes to expand nato eastward and secure trillions of dollars in mineralsYeah they really didn't. But apparently what they REALLY deserve is the deadliest war in Europe since WWII. Thanks, Russia.
>>2805022Not one of these things forced Russia to invade. It was an enormous escalation in an already horrific power struggle between the West and Russia that has solved nothing and killed countless people.
>>2805023I don't think we should acquit NATO at all, but nobody forced Russia to invade. They made that decision themselves and they're absolutely to blame for it. We can talk all day about NATO's many crimes and the fact that they set the stage for the war as we know it, but Russia has its own agency and Putin said "Let's start a huge fucking war!". Playing into NATO's hands or not, that's on them.
>>2805027If anybody has evidence of Russian minorities in Ukraine being thankful for the Russian invasion I'd really like to see it.
>>2805032Get real
>>2804345>started the current revolutionary shift against US unipolar hegemony. Based retard
>>2805366>its the U.S that's a fucking blight to the worldAgreed, for one they are the reason Putin's regime got into power in the first place.
>>2804463>>2804741>It's just power worship.or they simply dont consider it imperialism
>>2805170I promise you this: without gorbachev and yeltsin, there would be no russia-ukraine war, because russia and ukraine would still be one nation
>>2804850>Authoritarianism is bad. I believe in ordinary people having rights, and healthcare, and food, and being able to protest against their government if they wish.did you know that people having food is dependent on the physical capacity to produce it?
>>2805615True, I'm aware. However, I don't see why that justifies the invasion.
>>2804253the fact ukraine would have recovered and prepared as much as them (or likely even more, given they would have all of nato military industrial complex foaming at the mouth to fortify them in exchange for big bucks), and that if they had to peace out once, why would it go any better now that the ukrainian army is fire tested and prepared
and why even peace out in the first place if you just want more, russia is in the better position attrition wise, resetting it would be dumb
and for your population, going once was already not that popular, but making a peace then going again would for sure cause big problems
the question is actually better reversed, why would russia ever accept a peace that dont involve guarantee of ukraine neutrality and/or neutralization, they have a big sunk cost already but are at least still in the dominant position for now, and no guarantee it would still be the case after a pause
>>2805170>for the purpose of pillaging Ukraine's resources in order to make sure that another empirewrong, and wrong, and wrong
>>2805170>for the purpose of pillaging Ukraine's resources russia doesnt lack resources, its absolutely not the reason of the war. Its a war about security concerns
>who can blame Ukraine for preferring the empire I can. Anyone on the side of nato is on the side of the empire, and destruction of the empire is the priority, whats needed for the world to finally progress towards socialism, the most progressive outcome possible, and so destruction of any entity on the side of nato is good, its that simple.
>choice of the vast majority of Ukrainians, including the majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians, to align with the West they didnt choose this, they chose the only non banned "pro peace" reconciliation candidate, and in pure "liberal democracy" fashion he ended up betraying them and fucking them over
>Ukrainians should fight against Western and Russian influence and act as an independent country that doesn't answer to either imperial blocthats exactly what the situation was before the maidan. They were playing both side to raise the bid, quite successfully, but it made the nato liberals allied with the nazis mad so they had to coup.
>that doesn't seem likely in the immediate sense.I wonder why, maybe the banderite bloody repression of anything vaguely socialist had something to do with it?
>backing a coup is not an invasionit caused a fucking civil war
>deserve retarded moralism, nobody get what he "deserve" in the real world, the only justice you get is the one you can rip from your enemies with a gun in your hand, what happens happens because of material reasons, not because it is deserved. At best we can celebrate when what happens and what we deem deserved coincide, for example when I see banderite getting blown up I feel like it should be celebrated
>It was an enormous escalation in an already horrific power struggle who cause the power struggle? who is encroaching on whom? do you actually want everyone under attack by the empire to lay down and accept the US boot because resisting means people die?
>We can talk all day about NATO's many crimes and the fact that they set the stage for the war as we know it, but Russia has its own agency and Putin said "Let's start a huge fucking war!". Playing into NATO's hands or not, that's on them.you do realize the exact same argument is made about palestinian oct 7th attack? do you also blame them? or do you only blame those who actually have serious military means?
>If anybody has evidence of Russian minorities in Ukraine being thankful for the Russian invasion just look up interviews in odessa, seen a bunch at the time. Not thats really relevant, population wishes only matters insofar as they actually do shit, and the russian minorities literally started a fucking civil war to express how much they didnt like banderites taking control of their country
>>2805660
>Its a war about security concerns
indeed, it's so much a war about security concerns that the russians are already industrially moving in settlers to steal land from the local inhabitants
>>2805741If people flee the territories Russia happens to incorporate in their just cause of national security, why should Russians be excluded from filling the shortage just because of their ethnicity?
>>2805674Why didn't they "invade" during maidan to save the government now that I think about it ? It already happened in georgia not even two years prior and it was orchestrated by the same guys who were unironically gloating on facebook as the coup happened
>>2805896because this is illegal?
>>2805001>NATO wanted trillions of dollars of minerals in the donbass regiondonbas is absolutely worthless, has nothing but depleted coal mines
the valuable minerals are in zaporizhzhia which evil evil nato could but at their leaisure just like it can but anything from russia including but not limited to your mother. does anyone actually belive this nonses or are you just repeating it for posterity sake?
from western perspective there is no difference whether the region is held by ukraine, russia, khazakhstan or anyone else for that matter
>>2805948nonsense. see this vid
>>2806003 >>2805674>russia doesnt lack resources, its absolutely not the reason of the war. Its a war about security concernsI see absolutely 0 reason to believe that the West, with its vast and expansive trade networks, wants Ukraine's natural resources but Russia doesn't because… they just don't, okay?
>I can. Anyone on the side of nato is on the side of the empireThis same logic could have been used to condemn those siding with the British in WWII. I do not believe that 500,000 people dying is a reasonable sacrifice for an invasion that has actively helped the west by getting Russia bogged down in a bloody war of attrition.
>they didnt choose this, they chose the only non banned "pro peace" reconciliation candidateThis was before the invasion. I am talking about Ukraine NOW, not Ukraine in 2019. I also do not approve of alignment with the West, I'm just saying that when Ukraine has been offered a false dichtonomy between a puppet state without an invasion and a puppet state with an invasion it is not surprising that the former is broadly more popular.
>thats exactly what the situation was before the maidan.What's your point? I oppose Euromaidan, it was a travesty.
>I wonder why, maybe the banderite bloody repression of anything vaguely socialist had something to do with it?Yes, It does.
>it caused a fucking civil warThat is not an invasion.
>retarded moralismAre we really doing the "Explain why rape is bad without using moralism or idealism" deflection unironically
>when I see banderite getting blown up I feel like it should be celebratedlikely hundreds of thousands of civilians dead btw
>who cause the power struggle?Both of them. It existed before Euromaidan and it kept escalating.
>do you actually want everyone under attack by the empire to lay down and accept the US boot because resisting means people die?I think both sides, or either side really, should have just given up and walked away from the power struggle because the continued escalation got us where we are now. Besides, Russia's goal isn't some noble stand against the empire, it's a matter of exploiting Ukraine's resources, exactly the same goal as the West. All of the other shit just leads back to that same issue.
>just look up interviews in odessaIs this your actual argument
>>2805023>i posted it again because you freaks never have a real counter argument about NATO expansion being the real cause of all thisThis can be true (NATO expansion and related developments were really widely held and openly stated concerns by Russia for years) and it can also be true that Putin shouldn't have invaded Ukraine and NATO expansion wasn't a good reason to do it either. Like the problem wasn't really a military threat from NATO as much as you want to believe because Russia has thousands of nuclear warheads, more than any country other than the United States, which is about equal (also I have some other thoughts about that in a minute). But also how the hell has the war guaranteed any security for Russia now? Like what exactly is more secure for Russia at this moment or even would be if Putin's amusing plan of invading Ukraine would've worked out in two weeks? I've yet to see a real counter-argument to that.
NATO was that big of a threat? Most NATO countries in Europe weren't thinking about war for decades with their armies being in an embarrassing state, and now they are reconsidering those ideas, while Russia is showing that it has a disorganized, dysfunctional army with very bad leadership that has spent an insane amount of resources on this war. Obviously it looks very bad. Russia also now has its the entire western border with actively aggressive countries at a level of animosity that was not even seen during the Cold War (like Finland or Norway). So what security was guaranteed and to whom?
There are just weird self-fulfillment prophecies to the stuff, like the Kremlin materializing Ukrainian nationalism in fighting it, far stronger NATO resistance by fearing it, and they have increased the probability that Russia will collapse by ranting how bad it will be if Ukraine isn't defeated. It should make you angry really. But more than anything it's reflective of a strong strain in Russian strategic culture and military planning to just get shitfaced drunk on retarded chauvinism and delusions of grandeur which causes them to take utterly massive, world-historic levels of losses with disastrous national consequences (again).
But going back to what I was saying in the beginning, if you really listen to what the Kremlin and its supporters say, what really animates them usually tends to come down to their status in the world. That makes "NATO expansion" a very real issue too and it is a concern to them, but it's kind of orthogonal to the main issue, it's not about the real material military threat to Russia so much. It's a more abstract vengeful thing that's wrapped up in great-power nationalism and is about wanting to be respected and having status against Americans or the British or Ukrainians resulting from the dislocation caused by the breakup of the USSR of which NATO expansion is emblematic. But they didn't take Ukraine seriously on the most basic level because they believed the Ukrainian state was more or less fake. In a sense, the people running Russia just want to rule the world or at least be seen like people ruling the world. It's memes.
>>2806058>with its vast and expansive trade networks, wants Ukraine's natural resources but Russia doesn't because… they just don't, okay?Because the US isn't just operating for its own country, it has the entire globe's imperialist system on its back.
>actively helped the west LOL apparently getting their entire military reserve weaponry depleted and losing the capacity of their knife jutting into Russian territory to invade Russia is helping them.
>it is not surprising that the former is broadly more popular.Why should Kherson, Zaporozhye, Donetsk, and Lugansk care if Ukrainian supremacists in Lvov who don't see them as human find their NATO puppet state more popular? The referendums found that these four oblasts favor annexation to the RF overwhelmingly.
>I oppose Euromaidan<I oppose Israel but condemn every single movement actually meaningfully opposing it>Russia's goal isn't some noble stand against the empire, it's a matter of exploiting Ukraine's resourcesThe companies that make up Russia's economy in the final analysis are OIL COMPANIES, they're not itching to expand into Zaporozhye, and they're certainly not itching for all of the destabilization of the flow of their oil exports that came about with the SMO. Admit it, the SMO was done not for some Russian "oligarchy" but because of popular will. Putin had been trying to fleece the people with the Minsk accords for almost a decade, was trying to sell out the people of the Donbass to genocidal fascists for almost a decade. The SMO was only launched because it became abundantly clear that the Russian people were not buying the Minsk theater plays any longer. If Putin did not act, he would have no political future, and thus he acted contrary to these bourgeois interests and intervened.
>>2806137I just wanted you to know that your post is the dumbest I've read this year.
Still waiting for the 200 autism score antiimperialist geopolitics that actually results in meaningful movement towards communism and not just industrialization which already happens under capitalism
If you support modern Russia as a communist you're a cuck, plain and simple. You are supporting the people who destroyed the USSR. Putin was handpicked by Yeltsin who dismantled what was left of the socialist state and sold it piece-by-piece to capitalists (oligarchs), leading to the death and suffering of millions.
And yeah obviously Putin is strategically retarded, this war has been horrible for Russia.
we already knew putler was a gigantic faggot with all the anti-communist bs but in this war he revealed himself to be a gigantic retard too and the russian federation as being even less functional than most of us thought
but my question for anti-campist bros is, how is based retard cucktin waging war against the great satan ameriKKKa bad for us? yes, the human cost is immense, don't let the naZionalist retards tell you otherwise, but the thing is that KKKapitalists were already gonna do a mass culling of the proles sooner or later and communist movements NEED america to be busy elsewhere and depleted before being allowed to breathe
"nothing ever happening" was never an option, so let's get real for a moment and tell me why is it more important to condemn cucktin and the campist bros for this stupid SMO instead of seizing the moment at home?
>>2806179His post is pretty accurate of the situation tbh
>>2804247>campistsYou can just say communists
>>2805674Forgot to respond to this one claim of yours
>you do realize the exact same argument is made about palestinian oct 7th attack?Fuck you, eat shit and die. Do you actually believe that the situation of Russian minorities in Ukraine is even REMOTELY comparable to that of Palestinians in Gaza?
>>2806137>the US isn't just operating for its own country, it has the entire globe's imperialist system on its back.Yes, this is why they want Ukraine's resources. Do you actually read what I'm typing or are you just filling in the blanks with retarded bullshit? Yes, OBVIOUSLY the West wants to pillage Ukraine's resources, this goes without saying. I'm not arguing against this. What I'm saying is that Russia absolutely wants to pillage Ukraine's resources too.
>LOL apparently getting their entire military reserve weaponry depleted and losing the capacity of their knife jutting into Russian territory to invade Russia is helping them.Russia is knee deep in blood fighting an absolutely horrific war of attrition on its own borders. Hundreds of thousands of its soldiers are dead. It went from a Great Power to a joke in the span of a few years. Will they win the war? I'm no fortune teller, but if Ukraine pulled this off I'd be absolutely fucking astonished. But even so, any Russian victory would be Pyrrhic. Even while the suffering of the Ukrainian people should be the focal point when it comes to the tragic effects of this war, it is undeniable that it has strengthened the west by weakening Russia's capacity to help countries like Iran that aren't doing retarded shit like invading Afghanistan and are humiliating the empire. Unforgivable.
>The referendums found that these four oblasts favor annexation to the RF overwhelmingly.I could convince you I was giving you a prostate exam with both of my hands on your shoulders you fucking rube
>I oppose Israel but condemn every single movement actually meaningfully opposing itUkraine is not Israel. It's not Palestine either. It is a completely different conflict with completely different dynamics. Ukraine is not committing genocide. Nothing Ukraine has done during the Donbas war or the invasion has been out of the ordinary for any regular modern war. This absolutely does not absolve them of the atrocities they've committed, but they are not comparable to Israel, with specifically exists to commit genocide and colonialism.
>If Putin did not act, he would have no political future, and thus he acted contrary to these bourgeois interests and intervened.<If Trump did not act, Israel would have no future, and thus he acted contrary to these bourgeois interests (Who did not want international shipping to grind to a halt) and bombed IranI see little difference. Russian oligarchs hate Ukraine and saw a potential for long-term gain with the invasion, but when it didn't succeed quickly like they had hoped the effect became negative. Nonetheless, to back down would be more detrimental to their interests so they support Russia cutting its losses and continuing the war anyway. In the US you see the same dynamic, the CEOs and billionaires would be ecstatic to see Iran fall and I'm certain they backed the idea initially but now feel it was a mistake due to the economic effects, while also supporting the continuation of the war because they don't want to back down and get nothing for their failure. Note that I am not saying these two conflicts are identical, simply that this dynamic of a war being in bourgeoisie interest and then being regrettable for them despite their continued support is not unique or indicative of some war that was actually le really good idea.
>>2806364>Do you actually believe that the situation of Russian minorities in Ukraine is even REMOTELY comparable to that of Palestinians in Gaza?The situation is arguably worse because at least Gazans got some performative demonstrations from leftoids in an attempt to absolve themselves of guilt from willingly supporting the empire. Contrast that with Russians in the Ukraine who have been universal targets of genocidal disdain in the west with the small exception of the national conservative bloc
>>2806379Calm down leninhat you're arguing with a Russian nationalist who thinks being forced to learn the language of the country they live in (Ukraine) is tantamount to a gas chamber.
>>2806380Yeah I suppose the repression of Russians is pretty light if you don’t factor in nearly a decade of shelling Russian majority territories, forcing schools to celebrate Nazi collaborators, lynching of Russian speakers and the attempted bioweapon development in cooperation with the US and Israel. I’m sure if you just ignore everything inconveniencing your worldview then you too can justify the genocide of Russians, Han Chinese, and all others fighting against unipolarity
>>2806364>Ukraine is not Israel.They have such ambitions though
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/5/zelenskyy-says-wants-ukraine-to-become-a-big-israel>>2806380>Ukraine burns Russian books and creates laws enforcing Ukrainian language and nationality with people who haven't ever spoken or subscribed to that nation.<Pfft no that doesn't look anything like NazismTo be clear though the country was multilingual for decades without issue, until 2014 when Kiev decided that Ukrainian as a language was dying out because of Russian settlers who have lived in there homes since before the modern state of Ukraine was founded.
It's exactly the same attitude as Israel demanding people to answer the question "do you believe in Israel's right to exist!?", well it's the same for the Ukrainian nationality and language, if it was being naturally eroded during independence then I think it's reasonable to accept that it dies out. Passing laws policing what language people use is what you do when you want to keep something alive arbitrarily, ditto shelling people who refuse to comply.
>>2806380your argument a fallacy that openly denies everything ukraine was doing and what it wanted to become, an israel in eastern europe
if any nation wants to be like israel total extermination against them is self defence, be ukraine, be on africa or be on asia, simple as.
>>2806386>It's exactly the same attitude as Israel once again: palestianians belong in palestine, ukrainians belong in ukraine. where do jews and russians belong?
>>2806395Who was expelling Ukrainians from Ukraine in 2014?
if anything russian >this land was promised to me by kagan ivan 450 years ago mirrors the attitude of israelis
>>2806395“Ukrainians” are not a nation or a people, the ones who fervently identify as such are either descendants of the Polish and Austrian colonists who made up the notion of “Ukrainian” nationhood in the first place or Malorussians who have been sufficiently indoctrinated. Like Israel everything about “Ukraine” is artificial and their culture is centered around the genocide of the native inhabitants. Even their “language” is just a bastardized version of Russian, which like other synthetic languages sounds unpleasant and unnatural to the human ear
>>2806397Except Russians were living in THE Ukraine long before the concept of Ukraine as a nation even existed
>>2806399a "malorussian" only ever existed in russian imperialist nomenclature. before they split into belarussians, ukrainians, rushyns, bojkos, lemkos and huculs they were all collectively known as ruthenians
>>2806370In Europe It's almost forbidden to protest for ending the war. It's even a harder deal to protest for Ukrainian Russian minority. Officially they don't exist in official EU approved story. Not that any run of the mill leftoid would want that since Ukraine is a sacrificial pawn and will make gay parades in Moscow a reality.
Whose cities are getting plummeted by shells and rocket in Ukraine and did the Kiev Meat catchers primarily target and what people group in Ukraine has the highest rate of casualties? It's the Russian speaking-Ukrainians. The war being fought in the east is just a reality of geography, but the uneven conscription isn't. Kiev probably calculates that if as long as they don't lose totally then they still win by purging the population of Russian speakers and generate then generations of animosity between Ukrainians and Russians that will help them sell the story that Ukros aren't just russians tribe who just speak Russia-kinda funny, but their own distinct thing.
I think the most ironic thing though is that Ukraine's 1991 borders were drawn up by the USSR, a state whose authority neither Ukraine nor their anti-ML supporters recognise.
It didn't really matter that the Ukrainian SSR was comprised of both Ukrainian and Russian speaking regions, the intent wasn't making each SSR an ethnostate. But now that's ended up with Ukraine as a country where its official language is not the most widely spoken language, we've got this idea that Russians have retroactively (by literal centuries) invaded and settled the modern state of Ukraine, because a state considered rogue and illegal gave them borders that included mainly Russian speakers.
If the USSR was operating on the same ethnonationalist ideals as modern Kiev, then the Ukrainian SSR would have been far, far smaller and we wouldn't have a conflict. Although Ukrainians would still probably declare in their national anthem
>Brethren, let's join in a bloody fight, from the Sian (in modern Poland) to the Don (indisputably modern Russia), Ne'er shall we allow others to rule in our native land.
>>2806381And you actually believe that any of this is even remotely comparable to the struggle of Palestinians? A lot of it isn't even fucking true!
>>2806386>They have such ambitions thoughThis was a retarded statement by Ukraine's retarded president that was intended to garner support from Israel who largely avoids any high level of involvement in the Ukraine war. Even the statement, dumb as it was, explicitly referred to Israel's tactic of having guns pretty much everywhere. This is a very alarming statement nonetheless so I never understand why people try to paint this as Zelenskyy saying that he wants to turn Ukraine into a genocidal pariah state that invades its neighbors when the actual message is pretty horrific in its own right.
>>2806387Zelenskyy says something retarded (Not an uncommon occurance) and suddenly "Total extermination" against them is self defense. Insanity.
>>2806395The world is the common heritage of all of mankind, no plot of land is reserved for a specific ethnicity or religious group.
>>2806399>“Ukrainians” are not a nation or a peopleWoah woah woah… hold on. Wait a second. You're telling me that national identities are… fake??? HOLY SHIT! NO WAY! This changes everything, here I was thinking national identities were totally real (Which is, as you know, the true Marxist position). Hell, Marx himself said, "Workers of the world, unite amongst your national bretheren along groups that were invented during my lifetime." but I guess he was wrong. But not entirely, because apparently the Ukrainian identity is somehow uniquely fake compared to the other identities that were also invented during the 19th century, like Russian, which are totally real and very important.
>>2806401>Jews were living in Palestine before the concept of Palestine as a nation even existedYou can apply this to pretty much everything and it's equally meaningless. Are you people Marxists or reactionaries?
>>2806412>Ukraine's 1991 borders were drawn up by the USSRYes, that's why I have the Lenin cap. Because of the "Lenin invented Ukraine" meme. Anyway, I absolutely agree that Ukraine's language policies are despicable and wrong. This is why I said that the Ukrainian government was absolutely not innocent in the War in Donbas, they did quite a lot to antagonize the Russian minorities.
>>2806471>This is a very alarming statement nonetheless so I never understand why people try to paint this as Zelenskyy saying that he wants to turn Ukraine into a genocidal pariah state that invades its neighbours when the actual message is pretty horrific in its own right.But the reasoning is the same, that for while Ukraine's demographics aren't exclusively Ukrainian by ethnicity, then Ukraine must live in a constant state of paranoia with a militarised population ready to violently expunge the foreign and terroristic ethnicity whenever it gets uppity about its treatment. By evoking Israel, that's suggested to be a state of affairs that can only be changed by eliminating nationalities that are not "native" by its own definition.
That article is from April 2022, when there was all confidence that Ukraine was going to be soon victorious (and well before much damage had been done, compared to 2026 at least). Zelensky frames his "big Israel" idea as a warning to the West that Ukraine can't become a peaceful, liberal, European democracy "like Switzerland" in the immediate aftermath. But the barely veiled wink to Ukrainians by mentioning Israel specifically, is that once the Russian military leaves their territory, then the entire Ukrainian-speaking population is going to be given the means (and even the duty) to finish off the now-defenceless Moskal settlers. Something now justifiable as "security", but was always the plan touted by Banderites; Defeat Moskal security, eliminate orcs.
So nah, it's not just sucking up to Israel with flattery and claiming having guns everywhere is normal, there's a very ideological assertion being made during a period of particular arrogance about the timescale and outcome of this conflict.
Putin supplies most of Israel's oil. Notice how Champ casually implies Russia is anti Zionist when Putin allowed Israel to airstrike Assad until his regime collapsed. Champ wants the street cred of left wing anti imperialism while preying on people's ignorance of what is actually happening. Both America and Russia support Israel.
>>2806528That’s not the point of the post. The point was leninhat claiming that Zelensky’s announcement of wanting Ukraine to be “Big Israel” doesn’t betray Ukraine’s ideological admiration of Zionism, when it clearly does.
Russia is “anti-Zionist” in Ukraine in so far as they don’t want Donbass or Novorossiya more broadly to become a Gaza Strip. But au contraire my /ukr/ adversary, it’s you who tries to casually equate selling oil on the open market to direct supplies of bombs knowing full well how they’ll be used as pro-Zionism
>>2806471>national identities are… fake???Real nations are objectively existing phenomenon. Russia is a real nation born from a thousand-year history of civilization even if you think there would be no difference between the RF and a Russia smashed into dozens of petty ethnonationalisms.
What is the civilizational history of Ukraine? It only exists because of German, Austrian, and Hungarian imperialist machinations. Ukraine was conceived in the first place to act as a knife jutting deep into what was always Russian territory for the sake of these three powers to have control over Russia. All historic "independent" Ukrainian states been client states for these imperialists. Ukraine historically has only ever undergone progressive development under Russia, proving that Ukraine inherently cannot have a sovereign existence and thus is not a nation. Compare that to Russia. Is Russia dependent on anyone else to undergo progressive development? No.
This is like saying that Israel is a nation when it's obviously an unnatural existence that couldn't survive without western imperialists propping it up. It's contrary to nature and it's only just to wipe it away.
>>2806583>Russia is a real nation born from a thousand-year history of civilizationalmost eight hundred
>What is the civilizational history of Ukraine?the actual thousand years russians claim
Leftism has degenerated into inter-glowie propaganda warfare between the glowies of both sides. This is why it's no longer even worth engaging in debate with online leftists. There are no actual honest leftists anymore who might be reason with. It's all just glowies and nationalists of all sides pretending to be leftist to push their interests.
>>2806686>Be westoid>Be in unipolar world>Live passively in society that's responsible to varying degrees for all current global conflicts<Erm please can we please say both sides are bad?Erm, no we can't.
>>2806686yeah condemning the nationalism of anticolonial struggle is objectively a glowie position go fuck yourself
>>2806693>be anticommunist nationalists>don't care about exploitation of proletariat, only nationalists interests<Erm, can we please support my capitalist nations wars and imperialismErm, no we won't.
>>2806693Dogshit thirdie post award
>>2806704>p-please support my capitalist nation we are le weakThat's a good thing. I hope your capitalist nation becomes weaker and weaker so that it becomes easier for its working class to overthrow it. Revolutionary defeatism is the order of the day.
>>2806522>while Ukraine's demographics aren't exclusively Ukrainian by ethnicity, then Ukraine must live in a constant state of paranoiaI think their justification for this paranoia lies more in the idea that they're under constant threat of invasion from Russia rather than the idea that they must exterminate all non-Ukrainians. Ukraine had been experiencing a civil war before the invasion in which their opposition was largely Russian minorities in Ukraine. There was no genocide then, despite some rather horrible and discriminatory laws. I doubt that Ukraine will suddenly decide to kill all Russian speakers (How the fuck do you even tell them apart?) after a war in which their enemies are largely from a completely different country.
>>2806583Oh my fucking god. Who the fuck are you? Do you even claim to be a Marxist? The concept of Ukrainian independence was created by Liberal Ukrainians who lived in the soul crushing, almost feudalistic conditions of the Russian Empire. No Marxist would EVER claim that Ukraine being part of the Russian Empire was somehow historically progressive for it, when the Russian Empire was substantially more conservative than other European countries and thereby severely slowed the development of Ukraine, just as it did the rest of its domain. You talk about some kind of long-lasting conspiracy against Russia being the reason for Ukrainian Nationalism as if the rise of nationalism was not a broad, common development across groups throughout the entire world during that same time period. It is absolutely remarkable that you have gone beyond just arguing that Russia's current occupation of Ukraine is positive and instead defend the Russian Empire's administration of Ukraine, something that Ukrainian Socialists fought and died to end, because of some ridiculous made up "inherent superiority" of the Russian people that allows for the uplift of the filthy Ukrainian untermensch. Russian national identity is just as fake as Ukrainian national identity. Grow the fuck up and either learn Marxism or just admit you're a Russian nationalist.
>>2806763You're putting the cart before the horse. The civil war and the eventual invasion came after Ukraine decided that after 23 years of undisturbed existence slotted between Russia and NATO (and co-operating profitably with both), people widely speaking Russian day-to-day and Ukrainian being a rare formality for much of the country was now unacceptable, and so had an ultranationalist coup that was welcomed by the US with literal fucking cookies despite the penchant for Nazi salutes and genocidal rhetoric amongst its most influential figures.
As for "constant threat of invasion", that's every country at all times, hence why all countries have militaries even if by constitution they can't be deployed abroad.
>>2806724>erm have you considered that BOTH SIDES are BAD!?Yes.
>NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations… MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership
<NATO summit 2008
We know that Georgia swiftly had a conflict with Russia later that same year, while Ukraine umm'd and ahhh'd for years before and after 2008 bouncing between leadership that was deemed "pro-West" and "pro-Russian" when the reality is that the Ukrainian state was entirely mercenary and saying whatever to whomever for investment (into Rolls-Royces mostly).
Presumably the US/NATO got bored of this exploitation by 2014, chose a faction that was guaranteed to pick a side and certainly they've eventually gotten a lot more out of this 2008 declaration in 2022-present than they ever got out of Georgia.
>>2806732Most of these people aren't even thirdies, they live in the West and don't support communism in the West as well. Their actually existing politics is either electoralism, like supporting reformist sheepdogs who claim to be anti-imperialist, or some random activist retardation, and 90% of them just fart in their computer chair all day long.
>>2806809Anti-campists are exclusively westerners being cheeky cunts in reducing class to flat categorical terms rather than an ongoing and ever developing analysis.
So yes I westerner end up with all bananas in the world, but that's only because my bourgeoisie had a falling out with your bourgeoisie who are both on equal footing, Banana Republic proles MUST sympathise with my fellow proletarian plight as we are complete equals although I will be fucked off if I don't get my bananas.
>>2806811That's cool and all but I won't support the bourgeoisie just because they are from a 3rd world shithole
>>2806816Yeah that's the
>although I will be fucked off if I don't get my bananas.part, because anti-campists can (and do) frame banana reduction as to the benefit of the Banana Republic bourg, who now possess bananas for sale (and more importantly the resulting capital that doesn't need to be repatriated to the west) and implicitly that's supported by their complicit reactionary shithole lumpenproletariat against conscious western Proles if they don't press the Communism NAO! button (and give over the bananas out of socialist fraternity), the anti-campists therefore loudly wash their hands of the inevitable bombing and obstinate from paying any mind to the resumed supply of bananas.
>>2806822Wow a lot of words and yet I still hope that the 3rd world bourg and petty bourg get proletarized and lose all their wealth.
Crazy how that works.
>>2806839If only leftcoms had such words for their own bourgeoisie, but I guess it's just so important that their own bourgeoisie continues to be able to pulverize the 3rd world.
>>2806843I live in Mexico retarded uyghur
>>2806842
>Surrender
But I don't want to surrender my material interest of fighting against the bourgeoisie that exploits me for the sake of "anti-imperialism"
Russia's invasion might be good or bad, too soon to say, but the fact they haven't won yet seems kinda retarded. But I ain't no military guru.
>>2806839<I want both sides to lose, despite the massive disparity in my bourg's favour>Crazy how that works.It really isn't and your surrender to it and framing of that as ideological purity is the problem.
>>2806850>despite the massive disparity in my bourg's favourBut I want the bourg of my country to lose their wealth and to become proletarized.
>>2806852So why are you framing it as a zero sum game where you can't fight against your own bourg for
both your own material interest as well anti-imperialism?
To treat those as mutually exclusive is to surrender the former to avoid the latter, because a foreign economy will retain more capital for its proletariat to seize?
>>2806856Because you retarded campists call me CIA, hasbara, comprador and other retarded shit for doing so lol
>>2806858>my personal fee fees were hurt onlineAnd your response is to become neutral towards imperialism, even at your own detriment?
>>2806859You really think I care if some retarded liberal like you call me names?
I am not neutral against imperialism, I want imperialism to win because I want to see the bourg that exploits me lose, because if they lose, maybe my country experiences revolutionary defeatism, I am not a fucking classcuck that wants my boss to get richer because "muh anti-imperialism"
Like anti-campists seem to forget the point of revolution is to seize the means of production and the capital it had hitherto produced for redistribution. If the bourgeoisie of the west and the bourgeoisie of "shitholes" are
truly indistinguishable, then more equal distribution of capital globally also means the capital to be relinquished from the global bourgeoisie is likewise equalised.
It doesn't follow to consider "allowing" the bourgeoisie of imperialised states liberation to be detrimental to the global socialist movement, because that take presumes that for some reason that a vastly uneven share of global capital is best kept in the west, which is a contradiction with "both sides are (equally) bad". Although you'll note the brackets around "equally", because anti-campists never seem to say that exactly.
>>2806863Case in point, how can you profess to such ideological purity when you claim a more capital-rich Mexico is simply one's boss getting richer? No other opportunity there? Revolutionary defeatism is conducting revolution once your nation has been milked dry?
>>2806867That's a lot of cool thirdiephile mental gymnastics but I won't pull up my bootstraps so capitalists in my shithole an hoard more wealth so in case a global revolution ever happens I can relinquish two factories instead of one.
I am not spending any effort in helping the bourg of my shithole gets a "more fair share" of capital wealth, simple as.
Go have a seethe about it you fucking classcuck
>>2806869fyi talking all dismissive like makes you look defeated, like you're punching but there's no more force behind the gloves.
>>2806870Thanks for the free psychological diagnostic but Inwill keep voting for communist parties that the bourg in my country dislike, I will keep wasting time and resources at work, I will keep attending communist marches and I will keep spreading anti-bourgeois communist propaganda online.
>NOOOO YOUR HEKIN BOURG WILL LOSE MONEY AGAINST HEKIN WAL-MART🎻🎻🎻 poor guy :(((
>>2806876Well look I can't take away performative bullshit as a lifestyle from you, you're also extremely unlikely to gain any traction in Mexico with your "lets wait until we're milked to the bone and abandoned, build communism on that" position, so you're only really humiliating yourself online and frankly I'm non-plussed about that.
At some point I'm going to have to get around to reading this. Like the intra-left ideological arguments about imperialism is pretty boring to me, it's just going around in circles, a more interesting question is who these national patriot guys in the Donbass in 2014-2015 were and how did they see what they were doing. Gubarev was DPR governor for a little while.
This appears to be an A.I. generated summary of an interview with Gubarev from a month ago.
<The Awakening of a 'Z-Speaker': Pavel Gubarev's Interview with Yuri Dud
<Explore the evolving views of 'Z-speaker' Pavel Gubarev as he questions the Russian government's war aims and confronts the painful reality of the conflict.
<Introduction and Initial Observations
>Our team has analyzed an interview granted by Pavel Gubarev to Yuri Dud. The experience was challenging due to the prevalence of high-octane conspiracy theories. Despite not appearing to be the most intellectually astute, Gubarev comes across as sincere, adhering to his own set of values, however flawed.
>This situation underscores a pattern: individuals with a consistent worldview, whether advocating for human rights or prioritizing Pax Russica, find it difficult to align with the Russian government. Only opportunists seem to thrive under the current regime. A coherent worldview inevitably clashes with it.
>The fundamental question of the conflict's purpose remains elusive: What has been the point of inflicting such immense suffering on both Ukraine and Russia over the past four years? This analysis will delve into the interview to explore these themes. We also note that Roscomnadzor recently blocked a tool comparing VPN performance, with a new link provided for access.
<Gubarev's Perspective on the War's Goals
>Upon viewing the interview, Gubarev's initial take on the situation closely mirrors perspectives presented in daily analyses. However, the multiplicity of ways the same situation can be described is perplexing.
>Gubarev asserts that the war lacks both physical and ideological goals, questioning the very notion of victory. There is no clear answer regarding the Russian army's ultimate objective as it advances through the Donbas. He characterizes the conflict not as a war, but as something akin to a "back alley deal" due to its undefined goals. The objectives of the "special operation" remain unarticulated, leaving the endgame, plan, and purpose unclear.
>While propagandists might celebrate the capture of small settlements, the reality is that decisive victory, as initially envisioned (e.g., capturing Kharkiv or Odesa), is now considered unachievable, even by the Ministry of Defense. The current official narrative focuses on grinding through the Donbas, aiming to retain devastated areas, possibly as leverage in future talks. This shift leads to disillusionment among those who believed in Russia's might and a new world order.
<Ukraine's Clear Objective vs. Russian Army's Stagnation
>Gubarev identifies Ukraine's distinct advantage: a clearly defined goal. Ukraine was attacked and aims to defend itself and reclaim its territory. This narrative holds a degree of truth.
>While Dud did not directly ask about the Russian army's transformation, Gubarev rejects the notion that the "special military operation" has revived it. Instead, he views the ongoing events as "human sacrifice," with people being killed without a clear purpose. For someone deeply invested in the "Pax Russica" ideology for over a decade, this situation feels like a betrayal. The senseless killing of Russian soldiers with no end in sight is presented as the official narrative.
<Gubarev's Evolving Views and Lingering Gullibility
>Throughout the interview, Gubarev appears to be shedding his former naivety about the Russian government's objectives and structure. Yet, he retains a degree of gullibility regarding the potential consequences of his statements.
>When discussing Putinism, Gubarev claims it's a system where one can speak and write freely without repercussions, highlighting his ability to do so while implying others cannot. This suggests he is close to identifying Putin as the war's mastermind but refrains from doing so, likely fearing immediate consequences after the interview is published. He seems to believe that his carefully worded innuendos will protect him, a common delusion within the "Z-aligned" community.
>This community struggles to accept the reality of the government they are dealing with and its rules. They seek a legal framework for safety, even resorting to replacing "Russia" with "Laos" in discussions to avoid accusations of spreading misinformation. This avoidance tactic mirrors Gubarev's evasive answers to Dud's questions, as he wrongly assumes a focus on formalities and word games.
<The 'Utility Tool' Analogy and Conspiracy Theories>Gubarev's perception of Putin is not as a leader but as a "utility software tool," akin to an icon on a taskbar, lacking independent agency. This view aligns with conspiracy theories suggesting Putin acts on behalf of Russia's enemies. Such beliefs provide a psychological buffer, preventing the harsh realization that the Russian president may have caused immense suffering without a justifiable reason.
>The analogy portrays Putin as a product label, a software tool, or even a religion, serving the will of unseen "operators." This framing allows supporters to admire or criticize him without confronting the possibility that he is directly responsible for the war and its devastating human cost. The decision to start the war, in this view, was made by these external operators, with Putin merely implementing their plan.
<Cryptocolonialism and the 'Z-aligned' Community's Delusions>Gubarev further elaborates on his worldview, stating that Russia is not a personalist dictatorship but a "cryptocolony" largely operated from overseas. This perspective attempts to maintain a semblance of loyalty while distancing oneself from direct criticism of Putin, whom he believes is controlled by malicious external forces. The fear of repercussions is attributed not to Putin directly, but to these hidden entities.
>This narrative reflects the broader struggle within the "Z-aligned" community to reconcile facts with their beliefs. They find it easier to blame foreign "puppeteers" than to accept the reality of the government's actions and the senseless loss of life. The difficulty in accepting that the leader they have supported for years might view them as expendable is a significant psychological hurdle. This avoidance mechanism is evident in their attempts to create alternative narratives, such as referring to Russia as "Laos" to discuss corruption and incompetence within a fictionalized context.
<The Igor Girkin Case and the 'Z-aligned' Community's Silence>The interview touches upon the case of Igor Girkin, highlighting a significant aspect of the "Z-aligned" community. Despite Girkin being a prominent and influential pro-war commentator, his arrest and sentencing were met with silence from this group. This is in stark contrast to the widespread protests and arrests that occurred when Alexei Navalny returned to Russia, involving liberals and journalists willing to face consequences.
>The lack of a strong reaction to Girkin's situation reveals the "Z-aligned" community's underlying fear and their limited commitment to their cause when faced with direct government action against one of their own. It suggests that their public persona of being "tough guys and fearless warriors" is largely performative.
>Gubarev acknowledges Girkin as one of the few pro-war figures who actively protested against the authorities. However, he speaks about Girkin cautiously, indicating that discussing him is a taboo subject. Gubarev distances himself from Girkin's ambitions, stating he does not wish to be involved in similar "misadventures."
<Mischaracterization of Navalny and Fridman>Gubarev exhibits further perplexing views by labeling Alexei Navalny as a "Ukrainian politician." He justifies this by stating Navalny was "on the fence" regarding Crimea, though his comments on the issue actually alienated Ukrainians and aligned him more with Russian political discourse. Gubarev insists Navalny identified as a Russian politician and was sponsored by Mikhail Fridman, whom he also labels a "Ukrainian tycoon."
>This characterization of Fridman is particularly questionable, as Fridman has been a significant figure in Russia. Gubarev's assertion that Fridman is a "foreign agent" is a stretch, seemingly aimed at fitting him into a narrative where influential figures are linked to Ukraine or foreign interests. The logic behind these labels appears convoluted and serves to obscure the actual political and economic realities.
<MH17 and the Role of the Russian Army>Regarding the downing of flight MH17, Gubarev subtly suggests that the "DPR militia" was not responsible. While court documents point to the Russian army's involvement, Gubarev avoids a direct denial. He reiterates Igor Girkin's statement that the militia was not implicated, adding that he has nothing further to contribute on the matter.
>Later in the interview, Gubarev provides more detail on the "Novorossiya militias." He explicitly states that the "carnage" in southeastern Ukraine would not have occurred without the Russian army's involvement. He confirms that the unofficial deployment of Russian troops was crucial for the separatists to hold their ground, acknowledging that without this support, they would have been "crushed."
<A Belated Realization: The Government's True Nature>Gubarev's journey mirrors that of Ilya Remeslo, a former proponent of etatism and government service. Both individuals, once fervent believers in their respective ideologies (Gubarev in Pax Russica, Remeslo in pro-government service), are now undergoing a painful awakening.
>Gubarev, a staunch Russian nationalist with a utopian vision, is realizing that the government he once served is indifferent to Russians, Ukrainians, or any ideology. This government does not value proponents with strong convictions, finding them difficult to manage. Instead, it relies on opportunists motivated by paychecks, who act as instructed.
>The government views both sincere liberals and sincere "thugs" as adversaries. What it truly needs are individuals who can flawlessly recite government-approved talking points. As the war continues, the entire "Z-aligned" community is expected to confront this harsh reality: Putin is killing people without a clear objective, driven by the desire to maintain power. The razing of territories serves no purpose, and all casualties are ultimately pointless.
>Regardless of their position on the political spectrum, everyone will eventually become an enemy of this government. The key difference between those who recognized this early on (like the authors of this analysis) and Gubarev is the timing of this realization. While some understood immediately, others, like Gubarev, are only now reaching this epiphany.https://skip.watch/read?v=18ljp0dpvZI#content >>2806863buddy with the cartel problem you've got a revolution will not turn mexico into a socialist paradise, realistically speaking it's going to be a second somalia
>>2806883>Being in favour of your immediate material interest is performative>You won't gain any traction, despite every single relevant 3rd world communist party thinking in a simular mannerLiberals when confronted with class struggle lmao
Also funny how no argument against my position has been made, the last threw of your posts have been nothing but petty insults.
>>2806892And yet campists want me to support the cartel controlled government and their national bourgeois friends.
>>2806893You're also an atrocious orator, like this is playground shit.
>>2806897But enoguh about Sheinbaum
>>2806686>>2806732>>2806809>>2806816>>2806839>>2806852>>2806858>>2806863>>2806869>>2806876>>2806893>>2806895In scientific socialism, any violence by a subjugated population without even bourgeois rights under imperialist capitalism is acceptable in order to acquire economic sovereignty. You can see this with Marx accepting the separation of Ireland from England if the alternative is the continuation of the subjugation and exploitation of Irish workers, as long as it is not possible to organize English and Irish workers because of English chauvinism that deceives workers into not acquiring solidarity, then separation is an acceptable alternative so that in the future a socialist federation can be formed with more equal relations between Irish and English, but remembering that the ideal would be to organize English and Irish workers together for a socialist revolution acting together. This already helps to understand the position of defending the self-determination of nations that Lenin wrote.
Workers in the imperialist core must cut off and sabotage all funding that maintains the dominance of imperialist capitalism abroad by capitalists and their agents who profit from this type of relationship. This is non-negotiable in order to avoid declining into opportunistic social chauvinism and to show solidarity with the workers of the world. This means that the sale of arms and loans that support the collaborators of imperialist capitalism, who maintain dependency to intensify capitalist exploitation, is not tolerated. All this means that the workers' party must take this position no matter how much it is hated for it, and if a party that pretends to be leftist is in favor of reconciling with capitalist imperialism in the imperialist core under the pretext of saving "democracy" and "freedom" abroad, then this party must be destroyed for serving imperialist capitalism.
Now let's start by explaining to you the question of what capitalist imperialism is with Lenin:
<But very brief definitions, although convenient, for they sum up the main points, are nevertheless inadequate, since we have to deduce from them some especially important features of the phenomenon that has to be defined. And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its full development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:
<(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.
<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, 1916, VII. Imperialism as a Special Stage of capitalism.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch07.htmNow let's look at his position on the types of countries as examples at the time Lenin wrote about the self-determination of nations and capitalist imperialism:
<6. Three Types of Countries in Relation to Self-Determination of Nations<In this respect, countries must be divided into three main types:
<First, the advanced capitalist countries of Western Europe and the United States of America. In these countries the bourgeois, progressive, national movements came to an end long ago. Every one of these “great” nations oppresses other nations in the colonies and within its own country. The tasks of the proletariat of these ruling nations are the same as those of the proletariat in England in the nineteenth century in relation to Ireland.
<Secondly, Eastern Europe: Austria, the Balkans and particularly Russia. Here it was the twentieth century that particularly developed the bourgeois-democratic national movements and intensified the national struggle. The tasks of the proletariat in these countries—in regard to the consummation of their bourgeois-democratic reformation, as well as in regard to assisting the socialist revolution in other countries—cannot be achieved unless it champions the right of nations to self-determination. In this connection the most difficult but most important task is to merge the class struggle of the workers in the oppressing nations with the class struggle of the workers in the oppressed nations.
<Thirdly, the semi-colonial countries, like China, Persia, Turkey, and all the colonies, which have a combined population amounting to a billion. In these countries the bourgeois-democratic movements have either hardly begun, or are far from having been completed. Socialists must not only demand the unconditional and immediate liberation of the colonies without compensation—and this demand in its political expression signifies nothing more nor less than the recognition of the right to self-determination—but must render determined support to the more revolutionary elements in the bourgeois-democratic movements for national liberation in these countries and assist their rebellion—and if need be, their revolutionary war—against the imperialist powers that oppress them.
<V. I. Lenin, The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination, 1916https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm#fwV22P151F01Now regarding the issue of wars and the opportunists who obscure the truth by trying to defend imperialist capitalist finance capital that maintains dependency to intensify exploitation. I'm only posting this to avoid confusion if someone is reading what I wrote trying to equate the war of a puppet of imperialist capitalism that uses chauvinism against the Russian population with the right of Palestinians to use violence against Israel to acquire economic sovereignty:
<In short: a war between imperialist Great Powers (i.e., powers that oppress a whole number of nations and enmesh them in dependence on finance capital, etc.), or in alliance with the Great Powers, is an imperialist war. Such is the war of 1914–16. And in this war “defence of the fatherland” is a deception, an attempt to justify the war.
<A war against imperialist, i.e., oppressing, powers by oppressed (for example, colonial) nations is a genuine national war. It is possible today too. “Defence of the fatherland” in a war waged by an oppressed nation against a foreign oppressor is not a deception. Socialists are not opposed to “defence of the fatherland” in such a war.
<V. I. Lenin, A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism, 1. The Marxist Attitude Towards War and “Defence of the Fatherland"https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/1.htm#v23pp64h-029Now a text against those opportunists who equate every war as if it were "inter-imperialist" to defend US hegemony:
<Advanced European (and American) capitalism has entered a new era of imperialism. Does it follow from that that only imperialist wars are now possible? Any such contention would be absurd. It would reveal inability to distinguish a given concrete phenomenon from the sum total of variegated phenomena possible in a given era.
<V. I. Lenin, A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism, 2. “Our Understanding of the New Era”https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/2.htm#v23pp64h-036>>2806846You live in a third-world country, just like me, but your words demonstrate complacency and co-opting the masses with apathy instead of seeing everything from the perspective of the independence of the revolutionary socialist party of the proletariat from the bourgeoisie in order to acquire political supremacy and punish all obstacles that deny the supremacy of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Furthermore, you fail to see state capitalism as superior to private capitalism, even though socialism is superior to both. You also demonstrate a resentment that lacks solidarity with the workers of the world and is not preparing the masses for a revolutionary situation in your country.
Let's look at quotes from Marx first, focusing on what it means to be a communist, and then how to act in a bourgeois democratic election:
<The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.
<The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.
<The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II: Proletarians and Communistshttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
<Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, 1850, "Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League"https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm
<The first great step of importance for every country newly entering into the movement is always the organisation of the workers as an independent political party, no matter how, so long as it is a distinct workers' party. And this step has been taken, far more rapidly than we had a right to hope, and that is the main thing. That the first programme of this party is still confused and highly deficient, that it has set up the banner of Henry George, these are inevitable evils but also only transitory ones. The masses must have time and opportunity to develop and they can only have the opportunity when they have their own movement–no matter in what form so long as it is only their own movement–in which they are driven further by their own mistakes and learn wisdom by hurting themselves.
<Frederick Engels, “Letters: Marx-Engels Correspondence 1886”, Engels to Friedrich Adolph Sorge In Hobokenhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1886/letters/86_11_29.htm >>2806919Wow that's a lot of works, but tomorrow I will waste electrical energy at my job by leaving the drill press on for an hour
I hope my boss loses his shitty weld shop as a result.
>>2806922Nothing says Marxism like celebrating the wrecking of productive forces.
>>2806922>It's not performative bullshit<Leaving a drill press on for an hour<Hoping it puts his petit bourg boss out of businessThis has to be parody, I've been got
>>2806923Nothing says Marxism like class collaborative cuckoldry
>>2806925I can't burn his shop because the neo-neoliberal bourgeois government in power (which I should support in their anti-imperialist struggle according to
>>2806919 despite the fact that they collaborate with the US, CIA, DEA, etc) will persecute me and I will end in jail and I can't end in jail as my family depends on me.
Shocking, I know.
>>2806927>Shocking, I know.No, the shocking part is you thinking either burning down his shop or covertly putting him out of business is relevant, considering the petit bourg are destined to be proletarianised by the actual bourgeoisie anyway.
If you have a family to support and need the paycheck, this is a really senseless way to lose that.
>>2806936>the petit bourg are destined to be proletarianised by the actual bourgeoisie anyway.3rd world bourgs are petit bourg when compares to multinational firms, 3rd world.vourgs are destined to disappear, glad you finally understand why campism is anti-materialist.
>>2806779>You're putting the cart before the horseNone of this really adresses anything I said. I've established that Euromaidan was bad, that the Ukrainian government has thrown away neutrality and that it's resulted in war, but none of this has managed to convince me that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was a good idea or that it was justified. You're functionally repeating what I've mentioned to be factual but acting like it's a rebuttal to what I posted. Existing escalations in Ukraine do not justify further escalations. The war in Donbas had a decreasing rate of casualties and Russia said "Fuck it" and turned it into the largest war in Europe since 1945.
>As for "constant threat of invasion", that's every country at all timesI did not defend the concept of having guns everywhere in Ukraine. Nonetheless, Ukraine is obviously more paranoid about invasion from Russia than say, Costa Rica being invaded by Panama because Russia is literally doing that right now.
>>2806795I truly do not give a fuck about the bullshit Kruschev was saying in the 50's to justify Ukraine being part of the USSR (Not that I oppose Ukraine having been in the USSR, it's just that this historical claim is obviously nonsense).
>>28068633rd world bourgeoisie are obviously also evil but you should prefer that wealth is less concentrated in the 1st world. A richer 3rd world does NOT solve the problems of Capitalism but it does improve living conditions and that's undeniably a good thing. This isn't about wanting your boss to get richer, it's about prefering your boss getting richer over the CEO of Hitler Inc. in Oakland California getting richer. Your boss is still your enemy and you should prioritize assraping him and ushering in Communism over transferring wealth from 1st world bourgs to him.
>>2806876>I will keep voting for communist parties that the bourg in my country dislike, I will keep wasting time and resources at work, I will keep attending communist marches and I will keep spreading anti-bourgeois communist propaganda online.Okay, nothing wrong with that. Nobody is asking for you to work harder, stop pushing for Communism or not waste resources at work. I think it's great that you do that. Godspeed o7.
>>2806923The fact that it's better for wealth to be less concentrated in the 1st world does not mean that he has to become a cuck for his job. That wouldn't even change anything, the reason wealth is concentrated in the 1st world has little to do with that. His actions are entirely performative but whatever.
>>2806925It's so petty that you kind of have to respect it, though. Will it do anything? No. But it's funny as fuck.
>>2806927You should do other shit to him too, like hide his stuff while he's not around and use up all of the toilet paper in the bathroom. Just be an absolute fucking nuisance at all times. Furthermore, you should take pictures and videos and give us updates on his freakouts. You know, for Communism or something.
>>2806953>Khrushchevite revisionism>1954LMFAO
Just kill yourself. Pereyaslav Agreement was celebrated even during the 1940s, the city of Pereyaslav was renamed to Pereyaslav-Khmelnitsky to celebrate Khmelnitsky pledged allegiance to the Tsar there.
>>2806953>but you should prefer that wealth is less concentrated in the 1st worldWhy? Do you believe the trickle down neoliberal nonsense or something? I can fuck with the 3rd world bourg by voting for parties that reduce their profits and sabotaging them, so I will, if that means 1st world bourg takes over his business then so it be. Comrades in the first world should do the same, at the end only transnational capital will remain.
>A richer 3rd world does NOT solve the problems of Capitalism but it does improve living conditions and that's undeniably a good thing.So you believe in trickle down nonsense, you are a Reaganite.
>>2806966>Pereyaslav Agreement was celebrated even during the 1940sI know. I'm not attributing it to "Kruschevite Revisionism", I am fully aware that the USSR celebrated the agreement before that. This was retarded and anti-Marxist.
>>2806953>but none of this has managed to convince me that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was a good idea or that it was justified.You've got the natural bias of judging the situation based only on how history actually played out and not factoring in what was potentially avoided.
>You're functionally repeating what I've mentioned to be factual but acting like it's a rebuttal to what I posted.While saying things like "euromaidan was bad" and "lots of guns are bad" provides an image of
balance to the conflict with Russia, you're not really considering any of this as contextualising what might have been if Russia acted otherwise. You're pointing them out to suggest you don't think Ukraine is perfect. But that's as far as it goes, that Zelensky and his public understand exactly what becoming "Big Israel" entails ideologically is just discarded and passed off as a bit of a whoopsy he made when sucking up to Israel. It's the same as when people were swearing blind that the constant imagery of SS iconography and Nazi salutes in Ukraine weren't indications of ideology, just a tactless form of insulting the Russians.
I understand that one can go hog wild with alternative histories, but there's no reason to be
this disinterested in what Ukraine's ideology is, what its goals are and where that may have led in a timeline where Russia made it absolutely clear that they're hands off. Being content with Russia invading and working backwards from there to explain away Ukraine's ideology is a really flawed way of understanding any conflict.
>>2806975This is not trickle-down economics, it is basic immiseration. Marx wrote in
Wage Labour and Capital (1847):
>If capital grows rapidly, wages may rise, but the profit of capital rises disproportionately faster. The material position of the worker has improved, but at the cost of his social position. The social chasm that separates him from the capitalist has widened.If this were not the case, then the
FIRST WORLD would have the
WORST living standards on account of it having the richest bourgs.
>>2806979>natural bias of judging the situation based only on how history actually played out and not factoring in what was potentially avoidedWe can judge how history would have played out based on what has happened. Far-Right groups in Ukraine did not have the power to unilaterally declare genocide on all Russian minorities in Ukraine, otherwise they would have done it already. They are absolutely dangerous and evil, but the Russian invasion has killed far more people and destroyed way more lives in its supposed "protection" of Russian minorities than the continued status quo would have.
>Zelensky and his public understand exactly what becoming "Big Israel" entails ideologically is just discarded and passed off as a bit of a whoopsy he made when sucking up to IsraelI don't think it was a mistake at all, I think he communicated exactly what he wanted to. It's simply that I do not believe they have intentions to slaughter all Russian minorities in Ukraine. In order to justify the invasion you would have to believe that Ukraine was about to kill hundreds of thousands of Russian minorities in an enormous national genocide as if this is some kind of widespread, popular idea among the population and can even remotely be accomplished. Do some Ukrainians support that? Yes, but that doesn't mean that it's going to happen.
>where that may have led in a timeline where Russia made it absolutely clear that they're hands offYou cannot honestly, genuinely believe that we'd be seeing a degree of evil comparable to the evil we've seen in this war if Russia didn't invade.
>>2806922Your actions are irrelevant in the face of the financialization and deindustrialization of third-world countries. All the reactionary tendencies of the past have already been integrated to serve financial capital. Furthermore, control of your own currency and national bank is a requirement to facilitate the socialization of the economy. The communist position depends on acting collectively to advance the workers of the whole world and gain power; this is the opposite of submitting to financial capital when the bourgeoisie in your own country is already integrated into global financialized capitalism.
A country subjugated by financial capital typically has its economy geared towards being a primary-exporting economy of commodities, with a government that exists only to pay off speculators of public debt, with more austerity that destroys the country's capacity to collect revenue, resulting in punishments if there is no more austerity, further punishing the workers.
Because capitalists are united when they subjugate a country to financial capital as a puppet, there will be more stability in the capitalist system to intensify exploitation and punish communists. Therefore, accepting subjugation to financial capital leads to the prolongation of the capitalist system. It's important to remember that communist revolutions only began with the division of several capitalist states competing against each other, not with the subjugation of countries to a single capitalist country in a unipolar world.
>>2806988>You cannot honestly, genuinely believe that we'd be seeing a degree of evil comparable to the evil we've seen in this war if Russia didn't invade.I do, worse even, because Ukraine and Israel have the exact same issue of receiving borders drawn up by some other state which already had existent nationalities within them, but whose continued existence therefore undermines the integrity of those borders now the "founding" states are no longer existent (The USSR, the British Empire).
It's therefore no coincidence that Zelensky picked Israel as the model of a victorious Ukraine. Like Israel, these conflicts born of that desire to ensure the continued veracity of their borders via ethnonationalism and the struggle against it, retroactively justify going beyond apartheid laws and into shelling people's homes. If Crimea's annexation was justification for draconian laws and a bit of home shelling, then the invasion could be justification for genocide just as October 7th would become for Israel.
Likewise, they've both got endless military and diplomatic backing by NATO states for the same reason that they're wilful cudgels against NATO's primary opponents in their respective regions. Ukraine is a launchpad for NATO against Russia, Israel is a launchpad against Iran. Thus, they both have a blank cheque for war crimes, their usefulness is as a vector for destabilisation and thus the more child murders the better.
When it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck (and says it wants to be a Big Duck), then it's probably a duck.
>>2807015i'm pretty sure russia is a bigger supporter of israel than any nato country sans usa
i'm also pretty sure zelensky quote was a bid to secure israel's support. at the time israel refused to support ukraine, to sanction russia in any way or even condemn russian invasion.
>>2807015>If Crimea's annexation was justification for draconian laws and a bit of home shelling, then the invasion could be justification for genocide just as October 7th would become for Israel. Israel was already committing genocide, Ukraine is not. Does this not just reinforce the argument that the invasion is a dumb idea?
>>2807024>Israel was already committing genocide, Ukraine is not.Israel is an older state than Ukraine, moreover Russia invaded Ukraine (partially) to avoid genocide.
Like come on man my post contained quite a lot to just be dismissed with
>yh but Ukraine didn't get the chance to become Big Israel… soooo I win? >>2807032Because the rest of what you said is just trying to draw some kind of equivalence between Ukraine and Israel, which is obviously nonsense. "Ukraine's borders were drawn up by another country!", "Ukraine gets support from NATO and so does Israel" and any variety of baseless accusations extrapolated from one quote that illuminates a completely different problem with post-war Ukraine. Look, here is the focal point of the argument: What Ukraine would have done over the past few years would never have been as deadly or destabilizing as the invasion. At the end of the day, everything else is just orbiting that.
This has gone on long enough, either make a convincing argument against it or shut up. In order to prove that Ukraine was about to commit some kind of genocide, you must prove that they had the ability to do so, that they had intention to do so and that there was any actual indication that they were gearing up for it when Russia invaded. You have given me nothing conclusive or even that I did not already know. Give me conclusive evidence and I'll join you in masturbating to Ukrainian kids dying.
>>2807042>"Ukraine's borders were drawn up by another country!">obviously nonsense>shut up>I'll join you in masturbating to Ukrainian kids dying.You know what, I’m not convinced you’re approaching this with an open mind.
>>2804238The government of Ukraine is the idealized epitome of anti-communism in Brazil, where a coup d'état was used to persecute all communist, socialist and workers' union movements in Ukraine with the Maidan coup in 2014.
In this coup regime of fascist reactionary puppets of finance capital several militias of the right sector together with the Azov battalion terrorize, kidnap and silence who they consider a threat to the buyer government with an organization called The Peacemaker ( Myrotvorets ) which is used by neo-Nazis with names, data personal and family members to intimidate, silence and eliminate outlaw journalists and citizens who are considered a "threat to national security" with neo-Nazi paramilitary groups. Just so you know, the president of Brazil Lula himself and several left-wing DCM journalists who are Brazilian have their names noted there. Remembering that they scratch the name on the list as the individual passes away as if it were a people elimination list. Don't forget the various white supremacist neo-Nazi organizations that have a direct connection to Ukraine in the world.
The role of the reactionaries was to depoliticize the population so that a false opposition that uses only the discourse against corruption financed by the bourgeoisie in a puppet party of imperialism with Zelensky as a friendly figure for the international propaganda starts the destruction and privatization for the financial capital of the agricultural cooperatives that it was unpopular to just hint at this kind of action before the coup, but Zelensky's opposition party is not opposed and hides this from the public, all public property is being destroyed and labor rights are being attacked. The various reactionary groups are integrated throughout the Ukrainian government in all sectors of the state and Zelensky just put the reactionary henchman on the line to attack anyone who opposes neoliberalism and the Ukrainian supremacy policy against non-Ukrainian language minorities living in the country and have been repressed since the coup.
The communist party of Ukraine had 13% of the vote before the coup at the time, where the left was seen as the main enemy immediately even though that party was in protests at the time no ukrainian chauvinism and racism against russians, no glorification of the european union, NATO and the IMF, with the defense of the country's economic sovereignty, public enterprises, cooperative sector, workers' rights, legacy of the Soviet Union and solidarity among the workers of other countries come together with neutrality and a desire to restore the Soviet Union. Party general secretary Petro Symonenko has been in exile in Belarus for a long time due to persecution.
This speech is the same coup speech that was had in Bolivia pretending that it is not a coup and the same scenario in Brazil where they tried to persecute and banish the left after the impeachment of Dilma Rousseff with the anticommunism of the lackeys servants of financial capital.
Russia does not participate in the export of finance capital like the IMF according to Lenin's description. The fall of dollar hegemony is boosting the financial sovereignty of third world countries so they may not have to follow the international rules of sanctions and patents that keep them indebted and dependent.
Here is an archived Communist Party of Ukraine opinion link:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220219162903/https://kpu.life/ru/101027/petr_symonenko_ynytsyatyva_ukrayny_po_sozdanyju_trojstvennogo_sojuza_uhodyt_kornjamy_v_nedra_my6_y_tsruHere is an article with a narrative against the coup-plotters' capitalist innocence propaganda from Ukraine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20171107144346/https://lorenzoae.wordpress.com/2017/10/11/on-russia-todays-liberalsTo answer the question about the perspective of Russian capitalism, you have to understand that US and European imperialist capitalism decided that Russia could not be respected and integrated like the United Kingdom to exploit Third World countries together. Instead, for Western capitalists, Russia should be a neocolony to be plundered just like the other Third World countries. This led to the circulation of capital ceasing to function due to Ukrainian nationalist chauvinism serving imperialism, which consolidated itself in Ukraine. This was financed as a continuation of the capitalists who financed reactionaries in Eastern Europe to serve as puppets of finance capital against the Soviet Union. These puppets now serve the project of making Russia a deindustrialized, financialized neocolony and enriching capitalists linked to privatizations, the arms industry, the financial sector, technology, financial speculation, reconstruction, and other activities that profit from war. The Marxist position is to cut funding, arms sales, aid, and debt to all the puppets of finance capital so that their governments collapse for the benefit of the communist cause, receiving concessions from post-collapse governments that cannot use chauvinism.
>>2806977So you were in fact lying when you said
>No Marxist would EVER claim that Ukraine being part of the Russian Empire was somehow historically progressive for itWhat you really meant was, "we must throw out actual Marxism-Leninism in favor of my misunderstandings of Marxism".
Sorry! I follow Marxism-Leninism, maybe you want to throw it out for the sake of defending your favorite fascist state, but I don't see why anyone else should respect that.
>Ziggers ITT now arguing that Lenin is fascist since he BTFO the retarded Russian nationalit revisionist history that claims Ukraine never ever existed
Scratch a zigger and a fascist capitalist bleeds.
Unique IPs: 65