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Capital Volume 1 high quality audiobook from Andrew S. Rightenburg (Human-Read, not AI voice or TTS voice)
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Library Genesis
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bannedthought.net
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Books scanned by Ismail from eregime.org that were uploaded to archive.org
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The Great Soviet Encyclopedia: Articles from the GSE tend to be towards the bottom.
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EcuRed: Cuba's online encyclopedia
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Pre-Marxist Economics (Marx studied these thinkers before writing Capital and Theories of Surplus Value)
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Principle writings of Karl Marx on political economy, 1844-1883
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/economy/index.htm
Speeches and Articles of Marx and Engels on Free Trade and Protectionism, 1847-1888
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/free-trade/index.htm
(The Critique Of) Political Economy After Marx's Death
https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/postmarx.htm
102 posts and 27 image replies omitted.

>>2847717
Your point hinges upon your own ignorance as you yet again cherry pick quotations that rely on a misunderstanding of Marx's methodology in order to contrive an irrelevant and time wasting argument

Read First Premises On Materialist Method and then, to illustrate to yourself your own lack of understanding, On The Jewish Question

>>2847723
What is the proper reading of the following quotation?
<The production and circulation of commodities, however, do not conversely presuppose the capitalist mode of production
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1864/economic/ch01.htm

>>2847698
>Harvey's companion to Capital
Harvey presumes Marx's affirmation of a pre-capitalist existence of commodities, in a relationship of barter which measures relative values unto the final value-form, in money (Chapter 1, Section 3):
<Marx's objective is to explain the origin of the money-form […] He accomplishes this task in a series of heavy-handed steps, beginning with a simple barter situation. I have a commodity, you have a commodity. […] your commodity is going to be a measure of the value of mine […] An increasing complexity of exchange relations produces an "expanded form' of value that morphs into a "general form' of value […] This ultimately crystallizes in a "universal equivalent": one commodity that plays the exclusive role of a "money commodity". […] The money commodity arises out of a trading system and does not precede it, so it is the proliferation and generalization of exchange relations that is the crucial, necessary condition for the crystallization of the money-form.
So Harvey reads that money is a result of the exchange of commodities, producing the universal equivalent. I read your suggested book, and it claimed the existence of pre-capitalist commodity exchange. To make it clear:
<barter […] I have a commodity, you have a commodity […] your commodity is going to be a measure of the value of mine

>>2847817
You abscond into an explanation of the money form as a universal equivalent in order to transubstantiate an explanation of capital that is never offered by grounding it in part of the monetary circulation.

This capital, as a deus machina, for you has existed, always existed, and any contention of historicity between the development of productive and merchant capital is confused as you reduce the concept to a platonic understanding.

Read through the companion and do not just quote mine for passages that seem to support your batshit views

>>2847830
Thus capital*

>>2847817
Laughibly you have finally managed to differentiate between simple commodity production and generalised commodity production, which is why you've had this little breakthrough in discovering that Marx posits merchants capital as preceding capitalist development proper

>>2847672
>>2847680
>>2847698
>Read Harvey
Reading Harvey, he affirms the existence of pre-capitalist commodity exchange with equivalent exchange-values as the basis of money in Marx's writing (Companion to Capital, Pages 30-31): >>2847817
This is entirely in line with what I have written.
>>2847723
>>2847709
>>2847708
>Read "First Premises On Materialist Method"
<These premises can thus be verified in a purely empirical way […] The first premise of all human history is, of course, the existence of living human individuals […] They themselves begin to distinguish themselves from animals as soon as they begin to produce their means of subsistence […] As individuals express their life, so they are […] The nature of individuals thus depends on the material conditions determining their production.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm
>Read "On The Jewish Question"
<The German Jews desire emancipation […] Why should the German be interested in the liberation of the Jew, if the Jew is not interested in the liberation of the German? […] The most rigid form of the opposition between the Jew and the Christian is the  religious  opposition. How is an opposition resolved? By making it impossible. How is religious opposition made impossible? By abolishing religion. […] Science, then, constitutes their unity. […] The limits of political emancipation are evident at once from the fact that the state can free itself from a restriction without man being really free from this restriction, that the state can be a free state […] without man being a free man […] It is possible, therefore, for the state to have emancipated itself from religion even if the overwhelming majority is still religious. […] The state is the intermediary between man and man’s freedom. […] Is not private property abolished in idea if the non-property owner has become the legislator for the property owner? The property qualification for the suffrage is the last political form of giving recognition to private property. Nevertheless, the political annulment of private property not only fails to abolish private property but even presupposes it. […] The perfect political state is, by its nature, man’s species-life, as opposed to his material life. All the preconditions of this egoistic life continue to exist in civil society  outside the sphere of the state, but as qualities of civil society. Where the political state has attained its true development, man – not only in thought, in consciousness, but in reality, in life – leads a twofold life, a heavenly and an earthly life […] Man, as the adherent of a particular religion, finds himself in conflict with his citizenship and with other men as members of the community. This conflict reduces itself to the  secular division between the political state and civil society. […] Man emancipates himself politically from religion by banishing it from the sphere of public law to that of private law. […] Religion has become the spirit of civil society […] the perfect Christian state is the  atheistic  state, the democratic state, the state which relegates religion to a place among the other elements of civil society. […] Not Christianity, but the human basis of Christianity is the basis of this state. Religion remains the ideal, non-secular consciousness of its members, because religion is the ideal form of the stage of human development achieved in this state. The members of the political state are religious owing to the dualism between individual life and species-life, between the life of civil society and political life. […] We have, thus, shown that political emancipation from religion leaves religion in existence, although not a privileged religion. The contradiction in which the adherent of a particular religion finds himself involved in relation to his citizenship is only one aspect of the universal secular contradiction between the political state and civil society. […] The emancipation of the state from religion is not the emancipation of the real man from religion. […] political emancipation itself is not  human  emancipation. […] the completion of the idealism of the state was at the same time the completion of the materialism of civil society. Throwing off the political yoke meant at the same time throwing off the bonds which restrained the egoistic spirit of civil society. Political emancipation was, at the same time, the emancipation of civil society from politics […] The real man is recognized only in the shape of the egoistic i individual, the true man is recognized only in the shape of the abstract citizen. […] Only when the real, individual man re-absorbs in himself the abstract citizen, and as an individual human being has become a species-being in his everyday life […] and, consequently, no longer separates social power from himself in the shape of political power, only then will human emancipation have been accomplished. […] What particular social element has to be overcome in order to abolish Judaism? For the present-day Jew’s capacity for emancipation is the relation of Judaism to the emancipation of the modern world. […] Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God?  Money. Very well then! Emancipation from  huckstering  and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time. […] In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism. […] the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews. […] The Jew, who exists as a distinct member of civil society, is only a particular manifestation of the Judaism of civil society. […] The god of the Jews has become secularized and has become the god of the world. […] From the outset, the Christian was the theorizing Jew, the Jew is, therefore, the practical Christian, and the practical Christian has become a Jew again. […] Christianity is the sublime thought of Judaism, Judaism is the common practical application of Christianity […] civil society could not convince the Jew of the unreality of his religious nature, which is indeed only the ideal aspect of practical need. […] The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
I read them. Now what?

>>2847830
What I've done is quote Marx which makes you upset, so then I quote Harvey and that also makes you upset. You seem like a miserable person who doesn't know what they should believe. You certainly don't believe in the evidence of your senses, at least.
>>2847835
>you have finally managed to differentiate between simple commodity production and generalised commodity production
All I have claimed is that simple commodity production is a fact of Marx's theory, against Christopher Arthur. Anyway, you agree that commodity production preceded capitalism, and that because of this personal agreement, you find no controversy in these posts?
>>2847657
>>2847693
>>2847717
>>2847729
>>2847817

>>2847885
I've never seen someone misunderstand Capital this badly. It is hilarious that now you've formally accepted the necessity for differentiating between simple and generalised commodity production (simply because Marx wrote it) but rescue Smith through platonic abstractions between the two unified in an everlasting conception of Capital.

You cannot synthesise a truly scientific position because yours is eternally reduced to a transhistorical universalism of terminology used to delude yourself into accepting bourgeois notions. Actually read the entirety of Harvey's companion and we can talk.

>>2847901
>I've never seen someone misunderstand Capital this badly.
What is misunderstood? You haven't explained.
>you've formally accepted the necessity for differentiating between simple and generalised commodity production (simply because Marx wrote it) but rescue Smith through platonic abstractions between the two
Smith also differentiates between the two, as I stated: >>2847657
<The difference between simple and capitalist commodities is already discussed by Adam Smith, of course, in that "labour was the first price", until labour became the unit of account between the revenues of wages, rents and profits [c + v + s], which is its capitalist augmentation.
This is why I say you struggle with reading comprehension.
>transhistorical universalism
But you also accept the transhistoricity of commodity production…
There is no controversy, anon. You are just looking for trouble.
>Actually read the entirety of Harvey's companion and we can talk.
Talk about what? We are already agreeing on everything; you just don't know it because you appear to have some sort of personality disorder. I pray that you find peace in this life, my friend. 🙏🙂👍

>>2847905
>Smith also differentiates between the two, as I stated
He differentiates the two but in no way understands them, hence a formal acknowledgement
>But you also accept the transhistoricity of commodity production…
This is hilarious. Not only does he not understand the difference but neither do you.

Why you retards coalesce to this thread is beyond me. It is clear you idiots will never understand Marx without the help of a guided reader.

>>2847909
Oh my bad I thought you were someone else

You haven't understood the distinction between simple and generalised commodity production because it is a theoretical historical development

I am done with this ridiculous circuitous argument. If you will not bother to read the most basic of introductions then don't bother posting here

>>2847912
>You haven't understood the distinction between simple and generalised commodity production because it is a theoretical historical development
This treatment is already in Smith. Read below.
>>2847909
>He differentiates the two but in no way understands them
What is misunderstood? Both Marx and Engels attribute the discovery of surplus value to Smith's writings:
<In that early and rude state of society which precedes both the accumulation of stock and the appropriation of land, the proportion between the quantities of labour necessary for acquiring different objects seems to be the only circumstance which can afford any rule for exchanging them for one another […] As soon as stock has accumulated in the hands of particular persons, some of them will naturally employ it in setting to work industrious people […] The value which the workmen add to the materials, therefore, resolves itself in this ease into two parts, of which the one pays their wages, the other the profits of their employer upon the whole stock of materials and wages which he advanced […] He must in most cases share it with the owner of the stock which employs him. […] As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce. […] The real value of all the different component parts of price, it must be observed, is measured by the quantity of labour which they can, each of them, purchase or command. Labour measures the value not only of that part of price which resolves itself into labour, but of that which resolves itself into rent, and of that which resolves itself into profit.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch06.htm
Thus, there is an historical development from the "rude" state toward the conditions of surplus value production. So again, there is no actual disagreement, which is why no explanation of it is ever given.

>>2847934
It is hilarious still that you misquote on the origins of surplus value as the differentiating factor and not the fact that generalised commodity production entails productive capital and hence the general formulae for commodity circulation.

Oh, but Smith anon. Have you misunderstood chapter 4 of fucking volume 1? What a shock! Perhaps we should read Harvey's companion to help us understand the materialist premise and methodology of Marx and abandon endlessly quote mining economists and reducing them to a crude Neoplatonic perspective

>>2847934
>>2847947
This argument is so convoluted now you will spin out in a thousand different directions either misquoting Marx and Engels again or deferring back to Smith

All when you could simply read Harvey's fucking companion

>>2847950
Anon, you have already recognised the fact that you agree with me, so please stop being stubborn and prideful for no reason. You claim my misunderstanding, but can't give a single example. You don't even know what you're arguing about anymore. This derangement is unhealthy. Get well soon. 🙏🙂👍
>>2847947
>misquote on the origins of surplus value
What is "misquoted"? Surplus value is value added onto capital stock (e.g. value + value = surplus value). Thus, the employment of labour upon stock is the origin of surplus value, as it is understood:
<Thus even Adam Smith knew “the source of the surplus-value of the capitalist,” and furthermore also of that of the landlord. Marx acknowledged this as early as 1861
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1885-c2/ch00.htm#1885
This is why to Smith, once labour is employed by capitalists, it must combine itself with profit and/or rent as a means to compensate the "master" above the rate of wages. This is also Marx's view; that capital is LP + MP to create surplus (C'), realised as value (M-M').
>Have you misunderstood chapter 4 of fucking volume 1?
This is how it begins:
<The circulation of commodities is the starting-point of capital […] The modern history of capital dates from the creation in the 16th century of a world-embracing commerce and a world-embracing market. […] money: this final product of the circulation of commodities
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch04.htm
So then, the circulation of commodities precedes both capital, and money itself. C-M-C is then ancient. Further, as we read from a footnote in Chapter 4, Aristotle already describes capital (M-C-M). This shouldn't be controversial, since you have admitted to this.

>>2847964
And thus we resort to technical distinctions in the composition of capital in order to abstract from its specific historical character, taking us back in a loop to the very first issue which is your platonic conception of capital grounded in a simplistic interpretation of terminological causes.

Thus it is you misunderstand the differentiation inherent in simple and generalised commodity production with the general formulae holding that capital has existed, will exist, and has always existed because there is no meaningful separation between productive and merchant capital.

>>2847964
Your position can essentially be reduced to arguing that capitalism has always existed much like the bourgeois economists

Again, fuck off and read Harvey

>>2847977
>capitalism has always existed
If I'm citing Smith who says that capitalism has not always existed, then how am I making the opposite claim? You need to think about this.
>>2847973
>Thus it is you misunderstand the differentiation inherent in simple and generalised commodity production
There is no misunderstanding, there is only classification.
Both simple and capitalist commodities are "commodities".
Both merchant's capital and industrial capital are "capital".
This is the first point; you are jumping to the secondary point. We both agree on the first point, whether you admit it or not, but you imagine that I am only making a single point. I have given due consideration to the rise of industrial capital previously, by analysing the mercantilist period and its literature. I have even demonstrated the historical and cultural discontinuity concerning the mechanical arts from antiquity to modernity, in their economic conceptions. So, I don't nake a single point, but I still make a first point, which you agree with - yet still rebel. You are rebelling against yourself, anon.
>capital has existed, will exist, and has always existed
If capital is money making money, then how could it have always existed, if money has not always existed?

>>2847984
>Both merchant's capital and industrial capital are "capital".
They are both forms of capital but they are historically contingent on the level of the development of the productive forces within society - hence merchant capital is parasitic whereas productive capital entails the development of generalised commodity production.

You are attempting to turn this in its head and argue that since simple commodity production has existed in ancient slave holding societies capital in general has existed since time immemorial full stop. This contravenes the basic methodology of historical materialism which is why you retreat to Smith every time you are proven wrong. Thus the supposed distinctions in the "mechanical arts" resembles the basic arguments Marx wrote against 200 years prior in which economic conceptions were dependent upon mere technical developments and not the class structures unique to these periods along with the relations of ownership.

Again, reread the First Premises and this argument is there. You have so patently misunderstood Marx because you are incapable of confronting him on his own terms and instead resort to sophistry in order to complete the tedious obfuscation of actual scientific inquiry with your own delusional dogma.

Read through Harvey's companion and by the end you will have reconsidered your position

>>2848000
Compel the tedious*

>>2847984
Laughibly it is only weeks ago when you were told that simple and generalised commodity production were a thing that now you have had to brook their existence, but still delude yourself with an idealist conception of economics and thus history itself

This is no end of mirth because at the time you were struggling with the relative historically specific development of the law of value and your typical confusion with it and some deluded conception of an eternally existing economic principle

Weeks ago I recommended you pick up an introduction to capital for a guided reader to help you synthesise Marx's original structure of argumentation, and you have not. You will continue to go round in circles in philosophical quasi economical discourse if you continue to do so

Consider reading the Wikipedia on historical materialism if all else fails

>>2848011
synthesise an understanding of*

File: 1782240381287-9.jpg (389.92 KB, 1417x1108, metropolis4.jpg)

>>2848011
>>2848012
As a preliminary, can you please stop writing like an anime villain? Thx.
>you were told that simple and generalised commodity production were a thing
Please link this post.
>>2848000
>>2848002
>They are both forms of capital but they are historically contingent on the level of the development of the productive forces within society - hence merchant capital is parasitic whereas productive capital entails the development of generalised commodity production.
Yes, I completely agree. Marx's great chapter in Capital Vol. 3 (Chapter 36) deals with this. This is also where my interest in mercantile literature began, with inquiry into the rate of interest (which tracts the rate of profit):
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch36.htm
>You are attempting to turn this in its head and argue that since simple commodity production has existed in ancient slave holding societies capital in general has existed since time immemorial full stop.
I don't believe I have ever generalised the phenomenon; but if it pleases you, we can say that before modernity, capital and value valorisation existed in particular.
>This contravenes the basic methodology of historical materialism
It just sounds like you have a crisis of faith.
>Thus the supposed distinctions in the "mechanical arts" resembles the basic arguments Marx wrote against
Against? Perhaps you misunderstand, but I am making a Marxist argument where it concerns mechanical arts:
<In the pre-capitalist stages of society commerce ruled industry. In modern society the reverse is true.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch20.htm
Antoine Montchretien as the inventor* of political economy (1615) is the first to elevate the mechanical arts of the third estate to the might of the liberal arts of the first estate. This entirely subverts Aristotle's subordination of production as a secondary sphere of life. After Montchretien, we see how Smith inverts the social order, presenting labour as the source of value, and statesmen as parasites upon this earthly power.
>You have so patently misunderstood Marx
Anon, you need to explain what I have misunderstood…

File: 1782241063206-1.jpg (83.02 KB, 1080x716, FigCuWhWYAAIxWo.jpg)

>>2848011
>historically specific development of the law of value
Well, we can only judge the values of commodities from their stated prices (with the wage being the unit of production costs). I have analysed this here:
>>2833486
>>2834735
Thus, we see a fluctuation of the rate of wages based in different historical circumstances, namely material development, which as Smith writes, is linear to capital stock employed (and therefore rates of productivity). We see in 1750 BCE, Ea Nassir attempt to make a profit on the wholesale of massive amounts of copper ingots, and so we can assume a declining rate of profit, which occurs at the same time that wages are set according to a relatively high standard, due to excess demand (this is in accordance with laws of capital accumulation). In an account of the Greco-Roman world, we see wages being generally stable across centuries, although there is an increase in the value of labour, as the denarius rises from a 10:1 to a 16:1 exchange rate with copper asses. We see stability in the Republican period, but soon after the Imperial period, there is massive inflation (e.g. the redistribution of wealth to unproductive sectors) which depreciates the value of labour, based in social produce. So then, the value of labour is proportional to industry. The major surplus revenues of this time were rents and taxes (since most production was agricultural), but the mechanical arts still held a place. Aristotle comments on markets, seeing that household goods sold at their values (based in the value-form; t. Ethics, Bk. V, ch. v). Profit he reserved as usury (e.g. money making money) and so this was a hated form of income in antiquity. An exceptional case I would say is Xenophon, whose idea to productively invest slaves into the mining of silver displays a capitalistic impulse of making money from money (with slaves acting as capital). Xenophon even discusses the combination of paid and slave labour in the venture, and so this mining venture is capitalistic.

Moving into medieval times, we have Thomas Aquinas and Ibn Khaldun. Aquinas discusses the "Just Price" of goods measured according to the physical properties of the commodity, with added interest being a "double payment" and thus unjust of the equivalent exchange. Aquinas challenges himself on this point also, by seeing that rent is also a double payment (e.g. usufruct) since in occupation, nothing is consumed, yet still paid for. Thus, surplus appears as an additional charge upon a fixed good, not the sale of a surplus product as such. Ibn Khaldun as an Arab gives apology to merchants in their quest for profit, by seeing how when competition rules that prices must sink lower and lower, this is the ruin of the merchant, but the gain of the consumer. Ibn then suggests that profit (ribh) is made by buying cheap and selling dear, based in fluctuations in the market. Thus, hoarding is an important economic category to Khaldun (similar to how Aristotle shares the fable of Thales' long-term investing leading to monopoly). Here then, the value of a commodity is governed by relative equality. Khaldun still speaks upon taxation, which if paid in money, is a transfer of surplus value, and thus an augmentation of the value of commodities to cover rents (which as Aquinas claims, is an unjust payment). We see additional payments of subjective valuation in ancient times, like risk payments or time-based interest, but as Smith declares, the rhetoric of profit as "wages of superintendance" only obscures the real relationship of value which is transacted. Taxes were not often paid in cash in pre-modern times, but today, they are exclusively paid in cash, since states are not simply administrators, but producers and speculators in the world marketplace.

So then, the postulation of a surplus value in simple commodity production often followed the closed circuit of equivalent exchanges described by Marx (C-M-C), but industry and agriculture also surely created surplus value by domestic and foreign trade, whether through slaves or wage workers (the same way the independent peasant must have exploited himself to make profit). So again, capitalism to Marx is not an ontological horizon, but an historical threshold of general social relations.  Thus, capital "develops" rather than simply "emerges" ex nihilo. The historicists often treat capital superstitiously, and this itself is the deepest fetishism, such as we see with people like Nick Land, who ontologises capital, similar to Ian Wright, who mystifies capital. Demystify it.

>>2848070
>I don't believe I have ever generalised the phenomenon; but if it pleases you, we can say that before modernity, capital and value valorisation existed in particular.

Amazing, you have turned tail and run from your original position whilst conceding the necessity of acknowledging historical contingency. It is ridiculous that you deny ever generalising the phenomenon as that is the basic contradiction inherent in half your posts.

This, I might add, would be cleared up if you read a contemporary Marxist scholar like Harvey. If you will not read Harvey I will plead with you to read "the automatic fetish" to move away from the absurdity of propounding inherently valid Marxist propositions that you use to pass underhanded bourgeois notions of economism inherent in statements such as
>Well, we can only judge the values of commodities from their stated prices (with the wage being the unit of production costs)

>>2848117
>you have turned tail and run from your original position
Where is my "original position" contrary to this?
>the necessity of acknowledging historical contingency
As I say, I have already investigated historical particulars in regard to economic development, while also seeing what is general to each.
>It is ridiculous that you deny ever generalising the phenomenon
I don't think you quite grasp the nature of abstraction despite agreeing with my method; capital can be both (i) general and (ii) particular. Admitting this is not contradictory, since it is the very means by which we assess knowledge of the phenomena.
>Well, we can only judge the values of commodities from their stated prices (with the wage being the unit of production costs)
But this is a correct statement… Do you now reject the LTV?

>>2848122
Ah yes, I am the one who has not understood abstraction. Me, the person who was obfuscating historical particularities with general comprehensions in order to argue that capital existed in ancient slave holding societies.

>>2848122
>>2848124
Capital, a social relation stemming from developments in social property. But as someone once said:
>So again, capitalism to Marx is not an ontological horizon, but an historical threshold of general social relations

>>2848122
>But this is a correct statement… Do you now reject the LTV?
Cackling, you pass simplistic notions of bourgeois economic theory behind Marxist propositions considered only in isolation. Truly, you have a unique ability to abstract in thought what only appear as vague laws to us mere Marxists

>>2848127
Again, you agree with me, but want to pretend to disagree with me.
Why not just find peace in the common ground we are establishing?
>>2848124
>in order to argue that capital existed in ancient slave holding societies.
But it did, according to Marx. This is a settled discussion.
Capital in particular must by necessity precede its general format.
>>2848126
Capital-ism to Marx begins in the 16th century, with the world market, but capital as such (M-C-M) precedes the "capitalist mode of production" proper:
<Interest-bearing capital, or, as we may call it in its antiquated form, usurer's capital, belongs together with its twin brother, merchant's capital, to the antediluvian forms of capital, which long precede the capitalist mode of production and are to be found in the most diverse economic formations of society.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch36.htm

>>2848134
And at last we've come full circle, Smith will not do in the face of Marx so we can no longer pretend productive capital and the development of capitalism proper precedes the argument outlined in Volume 1.

Thus the only obfuscation, ignorance of the fact that capital is a social relation, continues with your contention that the general formula for simple exchange is equivalent to that under generalised commodity production. Interesting that we no are no longer making reference to the universal equivalent as a means for oblating productive and mercantile capital.

>But that's what I was saying from the beginning!
So cries Smith anon, who mere weeks ago could not understand the difference between simple and generalised commodity production

>>2847698
>You have just vomitted more quotes in defence of a point you have barely understood
and you have done even less. all you do is say he is wrong, without saying why, or what would be more correct

>>2848150
Ah yes, the more quotes you can vomit the more sound your comprehension of theory is. Excuse me as I quote paragraphs from Marginalists in defence of Marx

>>2848156
>Excuse me as I quote paragraphs from Marginalists in defence of Marx
If only you could ecclectic-maxx like a true theorist. 💪😁
>>2848143
I have requested a link to this supposed post, if you would oblige me.
>>2848142
>we can no longer pretend productive capital and the development of capitalism proper precedes the argument outlined in Volume 1.
>Interesting that we no are no longer making reference to the universal equivalent as a means for oblating productive and mercantile capital.
Could you clarify what you mean by these statements, please?
>the general formula for simple exchange is equivalent to that under generalised commodity production
Well, yes… Commerce is still the rule of equivalent exchange (where perfect competition persists); the augmented value of commodities simply takes on a distributed component of cost in alignment with the prices of production, and so incorporates the rate of profit:
<The value of a commodity is equal to the value of the constant capital contained in it, plus the value of the variable capital reproduced in it, plus the increment — the surplus-value produced — of this variable capital. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch08.htm
You will notice that this is identical ro what Smith wrote on the topic.

>>2848176
>Commerce
And we have retreated back to a universalism in which commodity exchange is held as a transhistorical through fictitious arguments of cost analysis by distorting the notion of capital composition by abstracting completely from class relations and the role of the historical development of labour. Thus we can safely reference Smith as preceding Marx.

I'm done with this tedious argument. Please read The Automatic Fetish, it is a recent work that deals with Volume 3 and will outline in the first section a much better argument than can be stated here

>>2848191
>commodity exchange is held as transhistorical
Yes, we already agreed to this, by consultation of Marx:
<However, not commerce alone, but also merchant's capital, is older than the capitalist mode of production, is, in fact, historically the oldest free state of existence of capital. […] The product becomes a commodity by way of commerce. […] In the pre-capitalist stages of society commerce ruled industry.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch20.htm
Again, this is not controversial, but mutually agreed upon.
>Thus we can safely reference Smith as preceding Marx.
But he did…
>I'm done with this tedious argument
We're not arguing, we're agreeing.
>Please read The Automatic Fetish, it is a recent work that deals with Volume 3 and will outline in the first section a much better argument than can be stated here
I will check it out, along with Harvey's Companion.
Thanks for the recommendations. 🫡😛

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Beverley Best's "The Automatic Fetish" (2024) is a bit of a mess in structure, and quite simplistic, but engaging in its core premise, which concerns an aesthetic critique of capitalist society. The forms of representation of value (e.g. as revenues of production) become the "mystified" expression of objective social relations. Of course, this is simply the critique of political economy, continuous of the Classical Economists, who approach "the true relation of things" (Capital Vol. 1, Chapter 19) by seeing how the "Wealth of Nations" is really a class structure, which divides social produce between different sectors. Engels offers an original critique in his "Outline" (1844):
<The “national wealth” of the English is very great and yet they are the poorest people under the sun.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/df-jahrbucher/outlines.htm
Here, "wealth" is both general and particular, not simply in possession, but in concept (e.g. Smith's "Paradox of Value") as we may read in the writings of Ricardo (1817):
<Value, then, essentially differs from riches, for value depends not on abundance, but on the difficulty or facility of production. The labour of a million of men in manufactures, will always produce the same value, but will not always produce the same riches.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch20.htm
Thus, "value" esteems an inverse definition; not as utility, but its opposite, as a measure of the disutility of labour. The more "valuable" a thing is, the less useful in general. Here then in the "scientific" political economy of the aspiring bourgeoisie, we find a groundwork of critique, which Marx obviously advances from with enthusiasm.

In dealing with "vulgar" political economy (e.g. capitalist apologists who deal in phenomena alone), Marx directly excludes the Classicists, theoretically and historically:
<The narrow and pedantic expression of vulgar conceptions which are bound to arise among those who are the representatives of this mode of production is very different from the urge of political economists like the Physiocrats, Adam Smith and Ricardo to grasp the inner connection of the phenomena.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1863/theories-surplus-value/add3.htm
Marx provides a brief history of the movement in his 1873 Preface to Capital Vol. 1, that the final period of "scientific bourgeois economy" (1820-30) was met with a crisis due to the class ascendancy of the bourgeoisie. For 2 decades after (1830-50) various contests were held, and Marx names two dominant figures; Bastiat, who represents vulgar political economy, and J.S. Mill, who attempts to preserve the scientific spirit of study. The meaning of "vulgar" political economy then cannot be lazily compared to "bourgeois" economics in itself. Some contemporary marxists claim that Marginalism in economics is a new vulgar political economy, but is this true? What is only implicit in marginal theories is the inverse magnitudes of MP and TP past the threshold of diminishing returns, which is the source of profit, as proven by Jevons' empirical account on rates of wages:
<the general tendency to reduce the hours of labour at the present day, owing to the improved real wages now enjoyed by those employed in mills and factories.
https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/jevons-the-theory-of-political-economy#lf0237_head_060
The only issue is that Jevons has it backwards; lesser working times is the cause of the higher wages, not vice versa. This is proven by jevons' exact model (Fig. VIII), that the working day (a-d) involves appreciating and diminishing returns, and so where it diminishes for the employee, it appreciates for the employer. Jevons then provides a "scientific" model of political economy, but is not conscious of his own conclusions. Jevons is not an apologist, but he is not yet critical of capitalism either.

So then, Beverley approaches her critique by seeing the distinction between essence and appearance (or what is otherwise referenced as base/superstructure). Moreso, her analysis is to show that "the automatic fetish" is the primary mystification of capital, as self-expanding value. Of course, this is dealt with by Marx early on in Capital:
<For the movement, in the course of which it adds surplus-value, is its own movement, its expansion, therefore, is automatic expansion. Because it is value, it has acquired the occult quality of being able to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays goldeuyghs.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch04.htm
This "occult" or mystical property is also spoken of by Aristotle (referenced in the same chapter) through his description of Chrematistics (one of the "antediluvian" forms of capital: interest-bearing, or usruer's capital):
<The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest. And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. Wherefore of an modes of getting wealth this is the most unnatural.
https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.1.one.html
Here, "the birth of money from money" (M-M') is treated as an "unnatural" process, and thus superstitiously. Marx speaks more directly upon this "automatic fetish":
<Interest-bearing capital is the consummate automatic fetish, the self-expanding value, the money-making money, and in this form it no longer bears any trace of its origin.  The social relation is consummated as a relation of things (money, commodities) to themselves […] the creation of value arising from capital as such […] This is also the form in which it is conceived by the vulgar economists.  In this form all intermediate links are obliterated, and the fetishistic feature of capital, as also the concept of the capital-fetish, is complete.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1863/theories-surplus-value/add3.htm
I would say that this Addenda of Theories of Surplus Value (1861-3) also seems superior to Capital Vol. 3 as an accompanying text for a critique of the "automatic fetish" (since Marx already gives anouncement to it). Here, we also see the transhistorical nature of this fetish, as it first appears with interest-bearing capital:
<Interest-bearing capital, or, as we may call it in its antiquated form, usurer's capital, belongs together with its twin brother, merchant's capital, to the antediluvian forms of capital, which long precede the capitalist mode of production and are to be found in the most diverse economic formations of society.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch36.htm
So then, in addressing the "automatic fetish" of capital, I will provide some ancient sources on the the topic.

We can read in the Mesopotamian text, "Dialogue of Pessimism" (1000 BCE) the servant speaks upon his master's interest given from loans [grain = silver]:
<The man who makes loans, his grain is (still) his grain while his interest is profit […] Loaning is [swee]t as falling in love, getting back as pain[ful] as giving birth. They will consume your grain, be always abusing you, and finally they will swindle you out of the interest on your grain.”
https://www.ebl.lmu.de/corpus/L/2/4/SB/-
Here, loaning is first normalised as a social relation, and secondly, the denial of interest is seen as 'swindling' and 'abuse', as though a great injustice is permitted by this denial of the capitalist automaton. As I have previously referenced, Aquinas (1274 CE) viewed interest as unjust because it adds nothing to products, and so Aquinas escapes the capital-fetish, while still retaining the commodity fetish somewhat, in viewing rent as similar to interest; as usufruct, but abiding by its custom. Engels himself is victim of the same uncritical error:
<[Housing rent] is simple commodity sale; it is not an operation between proletarian and bourgeois, between worker and capitalist […] On the contrary, we are dealing here with a quite ordinary commodity transaction between two citizens, and this transaction proceeds according to the economic laws which govern the sale of commodities in general and in particular the sale of the commodity, land property. The building and maintenance costs of the house, or of the part of the house in question, enters first of all into the calculation; the land value, determined by the more or less favourable situation of the house, comes next; the state of the relation between supply and demand existing at the moment is finally decisive.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htm
Thus, Engels supposes that where the tenant doesn't pay the landlord, the landlord has been 'swindled' and 'abused'. This mystification by Engels proves the fetish (e.g. Engels imagines that land creates its own value, and so it must be returned as a revenue of rent, lest the "laws" of value are suspended and chaos pervades all). Of course, Smith (1776) is already critical of landlords:
<As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch06.htm
Further, the origin of rent is demystified by Smith as a product of labour, which then enters into the final price of goods. Smith is not beguiled by the automatic fetish. On the "automatic fetish" of the later capitalist cost-price (k), we also see Aristotle speak of Hephaesetus' automatons, that if only the master could treat artificial life as his own, he would have no need for slaves, and so wealth would develop from itself, by self-sufficiency:
<For if every instrument could accomplish its own work, obeying or anticipating the will of others, like the statues of Daedalus, or the tripods of Hephaestus […] the shuttle would weave and the plectrum touch the lyre without a hand to guide them, chief workmen would not want servants, nor masters slaves. 
https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.1.one.html
Fetishism and fantasy coincide on this point, with Virgil speaking of the automatic wealth from a Golden Age:
<the uncultivated earth will pour out her first little gifts, straggling ivy and cyclamen everywhere and the bean flower with the smiling acanthus.The goats will come home themselves, their udders swollen with milk, and the cattle will have no fear of fierce lions
https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/VirgilEclogues.php
Thus, the very idea of automatic wealth is ancient, like the automatic fetish of interest-bearing capital itself (which seems to have relation to Plato's idea of perpetual motion, e.g. "Lusiteloun").

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Returning to Beverley Best, the commodity fetish seems to be the operative disguise of exploitation under the appearance of equivalent exchange. An example is the wage contract, which only pays for necessary labour, yet includes surplus labour in its calculation. Here, Marx is subtle, by seeing that the exchange-values of wages are equivalent, but the use-value of labour-power is unequal:
<The capitalist then takes his stand on the law of the exchange of commodities. He, like all other buyers, seeks to get the greatest possible benefit out of the use-value of his commodity […] the peculiar nature of the commodity sold implies a limit to its consumption by the purchaser, and the labourer maintains his right as seller when he wishes to reduce the working-day to one of definite normal duration. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm
So then, the law of value persists, since man is himself now a (rented) commodity. Interestingly, Marx says that the only difference between free and unfree labour is the status of exchange; between renting and purchasing as such. The "appearance" of freedom by the contract then is mediated by the modified space and time of labour, but for which still retains it's essential character, as the extraction of surplus labour. Fetishism is displayed here:
<The wage form thus extinguishes every trace of the division of the working-day into necessary labour and surplus-labour, into paid and unpaid labour. All labour appears as paid labour. In the corvée, the labour of the worker for himself, and his compulsory labour for his lord, differ in space and time in the clearest possible way. In slave labour, even that part of the working-day in which the slave is only replacing the value of his own means of existence, in which, therefore, in fact, he works for himself alone, appears as labour for his master. All the slave’s labour appears as unpaid labour. In wage labour, on the contrary, even surplus-labour, or unpaid labour, appears as paid. There the property-relation conceals the labour of the slave for himself; here the money-relation conceals the unrequited labour of the wage labourer.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch19.htm
Here, the wage form (e.g. value fetish) gives appearance to equivalent exchange, but also displays an artificial separation between himself and the slave. The value fetish imagines that surplus is generated by a master, with the slave as a parasite upon production at worst, or simply as fixed capital, and so incapable of living labour. The same discourse exists under capitalism, of course, that it is "entrepeneurship" or "abstinence", or "wages of superintendence" which really produces surplus value, and so the worker is only hired out of charity. Sticking with the fetish character of labour however, we see the anthropocentric fetish of Marx, in Capital Vol. 1, Ch. 7:
<We pre-suppose labour in a form that stamps it as exclusively human. A spider conducts operations that resemble those of a weaver, and a bee puts to shame many an architect in the construction of her cells. But what distinguishes the worst architect from the best of bees is this, that the architect raises his structure in imagination before he erects it in reality. At the end of every labour-process, we get a result that already existed in the imagination of the labourer at its commencement. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch07.htm
Here, the "imagination" imbues human labour with some sort of higher substance, and the animal is relegated as purely instinctive, without creativity or consciousness. This is the anthropocentric fetish, which imagines that man himself is really distinct from his own animalia. So, just as racism can obscure exploitation by fetishism, we see speciesism do the same. Animals (from whence we derive the very term "capital", by "cattle") are seen as an irrelevant raw material to convert into "value" (this is Marx at his most uncritical). The same distinction exists between man and machine, of course, which Beverley sees as an intensification of the fetish, but Marx may see otherwise, through the ensoulment of the machine:
<Rather, it is the machine which possesses skill and strength in place of the worker, is itself the virtuoso, with a soul of its own in the mechanical laws acting through it; and it consumes coal, oil etc. (matières instrumentales), just as the worker consumes food, to keep up its perpetual motion. The worker’s activity, reduced to a mere abstraction of activity, is determined and regulated on all sides by the movement of the machinery, and not the opposite. The science which compels the inanimate limbs of the machinery, by their construction, to act purposefully, as an automaton, does not exist in the worker’s consciousness, but rather acts upon him through the machine as an alien power, as the power of the machine itself. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch13.htm
Here, agency and subjectivity is given to the machine, like Marx provides self-determination to value in general:
<the relations connecting the labour of one individual with that of the rest appear, not as direct social relations between individuals at work, but as what they really are, material relations between persons and social relations between things […] Value, therefore, does not stalk about with a label describing what it is. It is value, rather, that converts every product into a social hieroglyphic. Later on, we try to decipher the hieroglyphic, to get behind the secret of our own social products
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
<Commodities find their own value already completely represented, without any initiative on their part, in another commodity existing in company with them. These objects, gold and silver, just as they come out of the bowels of the earth, are forthwith the direct incarnation of all human labour. Hence the magic of money. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch02.htm
Now, is Marx not in the throes of an automatic fetish here? He is seeing that "Value" determines itself, without anyone knowing it, the same way capital "makes money" from itself. So then, I would conclude that "value" in its very proposition is fetishistic, and the critique of "value" by Smith and Ricardo proves the point, that by the value signifier, social forms justify themselves according to it. We can read this from Beverley's examples (e.g. Fuchs):
<Some commentators use the term ‘prosumer’ to characterize the consumer-become-producer – the unpaid digital labourer who ‘works’ through consuming […] Some commentators, including the critical communications theorist Christian Fuchs, argue that this ‘unpaid digital labour’ produces surplus-value for the capitalist
Beverley corrects the record that only by the value-form is labour contracted as "value", but this is demonstrating the deepening of illusion. Both are right, and both are wrong. Fuchs to me represents what much of the left have become debased as, of not criticising the category of "value", but attempting to appropriate it for political purposes. Thus, the feminists complain about "unpaid housework", or black people complain about "unpaid slavery". Here, compensation acts as "wages" for the transaction (in linguistic terms, all communication is thereby symbolised). This is naturalising "value" as a physical relationship and not a socio-historical object. The "materialist" approach is often even worse, since it treats "economics" as a physical problem, rather than a social one. The confusion of most Marxists concerns this precisely; of validating the social construct "value". To me then, fetishism begins by the proposition of "value" itself. Or as Marx writes in his temporary lucidity:
<The mode of production in which the product takes the form of a commodity, or is produced directly for exchange, is the most general and most embryonic form of bourgeois production. It therefore makes its appearance at an early date in history, though not in the same predominating and characteristic manner as now-a-days. Hence its Fetish character is comparatively easy to be seen through. But when we come to more concrete forms, even this appearance of simplicity vanishes […] So far no chemist has ever discovered exchange value either in a pearl or a diamond. The economic discoverers of this chemical element, who by-the-bye lay special claim to critical acumen, find however that the use value of objects belongs to them independently of their material properties, while their value, on the other hand, forms a part of them as objects. What confirms them in this view, is the peculiar circumstance that the use value of objects is realised without exchange, by means of a direct relation between the objects and man, while, on the other hand, their value is realised only by exchange, that is, by means of a social process.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
Fetishism then grows in proportion to development, and so the more "civilised", the more delusional people are. For the most part, Beverley's book is just a summary of Capital Vol. 3 which I find disinteresting, so unless anyone wants me to go through any particular section, this is how I will conclude my review of the book. 🙂👍

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in the imperial core, capitalism has become even more of a scam than ever before, and more averse to actual commodity production, because of the falling profit rates and relatively high wages…. and the scams (like crypto so-called "currency" and Artificial so-called "Intelligence") have become more destructive to the environment than ever, in an age when we are in the precipice of climate collapse, and we are decades behind doing what needs to be done to fix the climate, let alone some kind of proletarian revolution. So why live?

>>2849989
>Here, the "imagination" imbues human labour with some sort of higher substance, and the animal is relegated as purely instinctive
Stopped reading here. You misunderstand Marx's distinction and reduce the comprehension of the sentence to some mythical capacity of man to think (is this yet again idealism Smith anon?)

From The German Ideology:
>Men can be distinguished from animals by consciousness, by religion or anything else you like. They themselves begin to distinguish themselves from animals as soon as they begin to produce their means of subsistence, a step which is conditioned by their physical organisation. By producing their means of subsistence men are indirectly producing their actual material life.

You read this yesterday! And again:

>The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse of men, the language of real life. Conceiving, thinking, the mental intercourse of men, appear at this stage as the direct efflux of their material behaviour. The same applies to mental production as expressed in the language of politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics, etc., of a people. Men are the producers of their conceptions, ideas, etc. – real, active men, as they are conditioned by a definite development of their productive forces and of the intercourse corresponding to these, up to its furthest forms. Consciousness can never be anything else than conscious existence, and the existence of men is their actual life-process. If in all ideology men and their circumstances appear upside-down as in a camera obscura, this phenomenon arises just as much from their historical life-process as the inversion of objects on the retina does from their physical life-process


Your argument breaks down as one again you misunderstand the nature of Marx's methodology and begin accusing him of a fetishism of value. Perhaps it's time to reread First Premises more deeply

>>2850357
>>2849989
This is to add: your use of fetishism in this case would likewise make no sense. Fetishism begins as an argument in Capital as the product of historically specific relations that result the reproduction of capitalist society. This is to say that fetishistic notions develop as a consequence of existence under capitalism, you cannot therefore turn the critique on its head and accuse Marx's analysis of being a product of its own error. Fetishism is a product of the social relation - abstracting from class society and turning it again into an ideal universal mystifies a genuinely historical comprehension.

>>2850437
>fetishistic notions develop as a consequence of existence under capitalism
This is disputed by Marx's point that the fetishism of commodities begins at an "early date in history", along with the fact that interest-bearing capital (as an antediluvian form of capital) is the realisation of the capital-fetish, all the way back in Aristotle's time (where value is supposed to increase itself automatically). Marx's historical point is that as commodity production generalises, fetishism increases, hence my concluding comment that in capitalist society we are the most delusion and superstitious, while also being the most civilised.
>>2850357
>reduce the comprehension of the sentence to some mythical capacity of man to think
But that is his point in this sentence:
<what distinguishes the worst architect from the best of bees is this, that the architect raises his structure in imagination before he erects it in reality
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch07.htm
Cockshott criticises Marx for the same passage (vidrel).
>accusing him of a fetishism of value
Well, if the value fetish is simply a misrecognition of the indirect distribution of social production, then assigning a "phantom-like objectivity" to an immaterial agency which works 'behind the backs' of men is reproducing the logic of fetishism, by pretending that "value" exists. Of course, Marx understands that for Robinson Crusoe, "value" has no meaning, but Marx also 'appears' to insist upon the abstraction as self-determining for society, even when under common conditions of monopoly, this supposed "law of value" is temporarily suspended, displaying its utter contingency:
<apart from the effect of monopolies and some other modifications I must now pass by, all descriptions of commodities are, on average, sold at their respective values or natural prices.
<https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch02.htm
<The exchangeable value therefore of a commodity which is at a monopoly price, is nowhere regulated by the cost of production.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch17.htm
Also, I'm currently reading David Harvey's "Companion" so I will provide a review of that work soon enough. 🫡

>>2850449
Hilarious, you extend the conceptualisation of fetishism where it suits you in order to avoid a proper historical account of the concept.

Hence you reduce value to nothing more than a conceptual fetish itself. That you believe Marx suspends the use of value under monopoly conditions is all the more ridiculous given the utter irrelevance of that quote.

Likewise the idea of fetishism 'increasing' is absolute nonsense. And that you have merely requoted Marx without consideration of the second quote given in the original post from First Premises signifies that you have not understood the basic premise that again knowledge is produced as a consequence of the social relations of production. Thus you find absolutely no issue absconding from any treatment of history proper and seek to argue through obfuscation of terminology by blending ancient greek philosophy and contemporary political economic theory.

That you believe fetishism begins prior to Marx's stated proposition is absurd. Again, reread On The Jewish Question for a formulaic argument on religion as the inversion of social consciousness and you will discover that what you mistake as fetishism is instead the direct result of the mode of production conditioning social being (species being).

>>2850495
>you reduce value to nothing more than a conceptual fetish itself.
Anon, that is Marx's meaning of commodity fetishism… The fetishism of commodities is the spectre of "value" itself, hence as Marx writes, the vulgar economist imposes the concept of value onto natural laws. As Marx continues, "no chemist has ever discovered exchange-value in a pearl or diamond". This is why commodity production obscures social production behind this "hieroglyph", which is the commodity fetish. This is why to Marx, "value no longer appears" in a communist society, where the social product is directly distributed, rather than indirectly (e.g. Gothakritik). So, "value" is the fetishism of commodities which mystifies social production in all societies which exchange. This is why communism abolishes commodity exchange.
>Marx suspends the use of value under monopoly conditions
It is written as clear as day, because Marx is borrowing from Smith and Ricardo. Monopoly suspends the law of value because the market loses perfect competition.
>the idea of fetishism 'increasing' is absolute nonsense
Anon, the commodity fetish develops into the money fetish into the capital fetish. This is in Marx's writing…
>you believe fetishism begins prior to Marx's stated proposition
Marx's proposition is that commodity fetishism begins "at an early date in history" which is more transparent, until commodity production and fetishism increases:
<It therefore makes its appearance at an early date in history, though not in the same predominating and characteristic manner as now-a-days. Hence its Fetish character is comparatively easy to be seen through. But when we come to more concrete forms, even this appearance of simplicity vanishes. Whence arose the illusions of the monetary system? To it gold and silver, when serving as money, did not represent a social relation between producers, but were natural objects with strange social properties. And modern economy, which looks down with such disdain on the monetary system, does not its superstition come out as clear as noon-day, whenever it treats of capital?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
You need to refresh your memory on this chapter again.

>>2850870
This is such willful obscurantism of that chapter that I'm going to bother to respond, likewise for the fact that as again you've cherry picked the ending passage despite the chapter containing numerous repetitions of the argument of its historically specific character to the nature of bourgeois society. Likewise your mystification and confusion of the critique of value with social fetishism is equally absurd.

Actually reread that chapter, specifically the first half and do not just go quote hunting.

>>2850874
Not going to bother to respond**

>>2850876
You are responding in your apparent 'lack' of response.
>>2850495
>religion as the inversion of social consciousness
Yes, and "value" is the *fetishism* of commodities, which mysfifies social relations by indirect representation. This is why Beverley Best connects fetishism to the Base/Superstructure dynamic. Value is a superstructural abstraction of the base economic conditions.
>>2850874
>obscurantism
No, I am the person who simplifies.
>historically specific character of bourgeois society.
Yes, which Marx says begins at "an early date in history" in embryo (e.g. based in the production of commodities). As you will read, fetishism first begins in an appearance of "simplicity", until money develops, and from money, the automatic fetish of interest-bearing capital (an antediluvian form of capital which precedes capitalism). Thus, fetishism *increases* as commodity production generalises.

File: 1782479546950-4.jpg (46.32 KB, 600x514, surplusvalue.jpg)

>>2850874
>>2850876
>>2850893
To simplify further, 'value formation' to Marx is historically particular to commodity production, which indirectly represents the labour of society by the fetish of "value"; a mystifying appearance of totality:
<Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
Thus, "value" is the fetishism of commodities, which first begins simply, but develops through value forms by the increase of commodity exchange, and into money:
<The simple commodity form is therefore the germ of the money form.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
Money by itself however takes on a new value form in capital (M-C-M'), which 'appears' to increase itself, first either by interest or profit (antediluvian capital forms). This new fetishism Marx calls the "automatic fetish". Marx writes that interest-bearing capital progressed the historical development of slave and feudal economies into capitalist economies by the ruin of independent producers (alongside "primitive accumulation"). Thus, the concentration of money-capital (M-M') gave way to means of productive investment. Productive capital (P) then arises to increasing relevance in the capitalist 'mode of production' (beginning around 1500 CE), as capitalists seek to expand value by investment in both means of production (MP) and Labour-Power (LP), which are the constituents of (P). Marx further writes that capitalism in particular displays the generality of wage labour (e.g. the commodification of LP), and this plays a part in the automatic fetish of productive capital. Rather than money-capital merely being extractive, it now allows for an expansion of itself by living labour (rather than simply increasing M, C is also increased). But because this is disguised under both the wage-form and capital-form (e.g. labour as variable capital), the cost-price (k) of the capitalist appears to make money from itself, since capital as an integrated 'concept' is self-expanding. With (P), productive capital expands due to surplus labour being converted into surplus value. Surplus value doesn't just share its revenue with profit however, but also land, as land-capital, which extracts rents by an increase in surplus value. Here again, Marx sees the fetishism of the 'physiocrats' of perceiving wealth growing out of the soil, instead of society. So then, as capital generalises commodity production, the source of value becomes more and more mystified by the "fetishism" of commodities. "Prices of production" comprise the fetish of the capitalist mode of production, since the revenues give appearance of an equal share. Much of political economy is about justifying this fact, by assigning productive margins to cost components. So then, as "value" is modified by capital and land, it 'appears' that it is these components which add value to the process, rather than exploited social labour itself. Some people then say that capital has 'evolved' since Marx's time into new 'forms' of self-valorisation. "Financial capital" plays a dominant role in the theory of capitalist imperialism, for example. But as I say, the very 'theory of value' leads to silliness, as I will show in my review of David Harvey's "Companion".

I hope this is sufficient in clarifying the historical point. 🫡


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