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245 posts and 80 image replies omitted.

>>2878012
those words mean the same exact thing in current year tho,the old money aristocracy is most of the time bourgeois nowadays or completely reliant on renting their castles and land speculation (which unless you're following the Smithian idea that rent economy is a remnant of feudalism,is capitalism too)

>>2878172
This was during Mel Gibson's anti-English era.
>>2878213
Where rents are paid in money rather than in-kind, this is treated as a capitalist relationship.
>>2878012
Both terms "bourgeoisie" and "proletariat" are obtusely outdated and contentious today. Bourgeoisie refers to a medieval class of city-dweller, and Proletarii refers to a Roman class of 'propertyless' citizens. In 500 BCE, the proletarii were those who possessed less than 11,000 copper asses (1,100 denarius - with 1 denarius being the rate of daily wages, making 1,100 denarius equivalent to over $150,000 in net wealth today). By 50 BCE, proletarii were valued only at 1,500 asses (or $30,000), with an even lower "capite censi" at 375 asses (or $7,000). So, the concept is historically relative, and socially relative also, since the term "proletarius" means "producer of offspring", as a security for military service. Sismondi was the first to compare the modern working class to the ancient proletariat. You will notice that Marx never uses this term in his political economy, but only in his political writings, so it is not in any way a technical term.

Both burghers and proletarii comprise the "third estate", or class of "commoners" (e.g. plebeians), which are the peasants and burghers, but even the serfs (e.g. slaves) did not count as part of this, which is why the term "the fourth estate" included the masses in the 18th century, but only unofficially. Marx writes that the proletariat of today is created by the decline of serfdom and eviction of peasants, leading to propertyless dependents. This condition of unemployment is recorded since at least 1489 in England. The landlord is the first capitalist, and so the aristocracy still rules. The merchant is secondary until the 17th century, in Marx's estimation, and so the bourgeoisie is not the "capitalist" as such, but moreso the urban capitalist, as opposed to the rural. Marx gives distinction as late as 1870. We see in Americana like The Great Gatsby (1925) that old and new money is still competing, leading the way to a decline of the WASPs. The fine line between nobility and bourgeoisie is blurred on the surface, but deeper, the conflict is racial, being based in status, such as between Buchanan and Gatz.

The term "rentier" was also popularised after Veblen (1899), where "conspicuous consumption" rules the "political economy of the sign" (1972), and which designates a new aristocracy, or "leisure class", which according to Bukharin (1914) is the end-stage of capitalist society, by a reversion into the feudal. Of course, Smith (1776) sees that services are feudal, and goods are modern, in the conception of wealth. As economies develop, services spring up in place of goods, following the same logic of degeneration - but this would only mean that the bourgeois citizen is increasingly aristocratic (i.e. wasteful).

File: 1785169826334-0.png (634.12 KB, 779x643, The Real Proles.png)

>>2878240
>Both terms "bourgeoisie" and "proletariat" are obtusely outdated and contentious today.
finally someone dropping this truth nuke without fear on leftychud dot larp

File: 1785170261957-3.png (230.08 KB, 834x748, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2878240
> You will notice that Marx never uses this term in his political economy, but only in his political writings, so it is not in any way a technical term.

Are you sure? Here it is in Chapter 10 of Volume 1 of Capital

>>2878240
>Smith (1776) sees that services are feudal, and goods are modern, in the conception of wealth.
How? Ancient societies trafficked in goods all the time. Maybe I misunderstand the point.

>>2878240

Half of your argumentation is playing with the etymology of words used. If I exchange the word proletariat by a constante such as "A" but keep in it the strictly modern meaning you are left without an argument, you can no longer say that the term is relative. That's like trying to argue against a Hegelian account of "essence" by attacking the scholastic use of the same term, pretending it will exhaustively apply to Hegel as well

>>2878388
>Half of your argumentation is playing with the etymology of words used.

>>2878391
Wittgenstein has nothing to do with what I said bruh

>>2878377
But he's not using the term in any intrinsic sense to the demonstration of political economy. Both "bourgeoisie" and "proletariat" most appear in the prefaces and the historical chapters, while the term "labourer" appears throughout the entire text over a thousand times.
>>2878386
Unfortunately, he doesn't provide much detail.
>>2878388
>Half of your argumentation is playing with the etymology of words used.
Precisely. The meaning of words has to do with their etymology. We can even read the anachronism and the particularity of the term in Engels' description (1847):
<The proletariat, or the class of proletarians, is, in a word, the working class of the 19th century […] The class of the wholly propertyless […] This is called the class of proletarians, or the proletariat.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
We no longer exist in the 19th century, and if according to Marx, the worker must sell a "commodity" of labour-power, he is transferring his own property to another. Thus, Engels' literal meaning of "proletariat" as one who is "propertyless" is false by the very logic of his class. Marx provides a more concise definition here (1867):
<Our “prolétarian” is economically none other than the wage labourer, who produces and increases capital
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch25.htm
This then avoids any extra baggage. For the rest of what you wrote; it's up to people to use words incorrectly, so when people are left confused, that's also their problem.

>>2878498
All I meant is a terminological identity is not a conceptual identity, you were implicitly saying the contrary by critiquing the Marxist concept of proletarian through a critique of the roman concept.

>>2878388
you're talking to a llm

File: 1785180974641-5.jpg (96.47 KB, 813x209, camatte.jpg)

its over

>>2878511
>a terminological identity is not a conceptual identity
Perhaps you misunderstand, but the term "proletariat" to identify the 19th century working class was a conscious allusion to the Roman "proletarii", by Sismondi, and which was later adopted by Socialists. Engels' literal interpretation of "proletarian" denoting "propertyless" persons displays overt continuity. I am critiquing, in the first place, (i) its very appropriation, and (ii) its continuation beyond the 19th century. The term serves no benefit and can only cause problems.
>>2878514
I have written before on how Marxism is a subversion of socialism for the ends of capital, but it remains "bourgeois" nonetheless. Lenin (1902):
<Marx and Engels, themselves belonged to the bourgeois intelligentsia.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/ii.htm
And the "proletariat" by their own efforts only achieve Fascism.

Everything you think you know about Economics is wrong

https://www.patreon.com/ProfSteveKeen/posts/everything-you-164699970

>The American humourist Henry Louis Mencken once wrote of human thought that “Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem—neat, plausible, and wrong.”


>I can think of no better aphorism for Neoclassical economics. Its solutions are well-known, its models are neat, its explanations are plausible, but its arguments are wrong. But to understand this, you have to go well beyond a textbook-level of knowledge of economics, because economic textbooks present a sanitised version of the theory, shorn of the fallacies which infest it.


>Normally, this is because the textbook writers are themselves unaware of the problems with the theory. But on occasions, textbook writers who themselves uncovered fallacies in the theory ignore their own discoveries, and teach the theory as if their own work had never happened.


>The most significant instances of this phenomenon—a leading economist finding a flaw in the theory, and then publishing a textbook which ignores both the flaw and his own research into it—concern the two fundamental constructs in economics, the demand curve and the supply curve. The textbook writers in question were prominent and highly influential economists: one, Paul Samuelson, was the main architect of post-WWII mainstream economics; the other, Alan Blinder, was Vice-Chairman of the Federal Reserve, and Vice-President of the American Economic Association.


>Together, their findings destroy the iconic foundations of Neoclassical economics, the supply and demand diagram. Explaining why this is so will take us on a substantial diversion from the specific topic of the economics of climate change, and it will take several chapters to show just how unsound Neoclassical economics is. But it is necessary to know this background in order to be able to understand how the laughably bad work of climate change economists came to be published in the first place.


<Samuelson and America as the One Big Happy Family


>Paul Samuelson and John Hicks developed the methods by which economists derive an individual’s demand curve {Samuelson, 1938 #291;Samuelson, 1947 #5848;Samuelson, 1948 #6947;Hicks, 1934 #4984;Hicks, 1934 #4985}. Their methods showed that an individual’s demand curve necessarily sloped downwards: that the individual’s demand for a commodity necessarily declined as its price rose. [1] In his textbook Economics—now maintained by William Nordhaus—Samuelson told students that the “law of downward-sloping demand” also applied to the market demand curve:


<Market Demand

<Our discussion of demand has so far referred to “the” demand curve. But whose demand is it? Mine? Yours? Everybody’s? The fundamental building block for demand is individual preferences. However, in this chapter we will always focus on the market demand, which represents the sum total of all individual demands. The market demand is what is observable in the real world.

<The market demand curve is found by adding together the quantities demanded by all individuals at each price. Does the market demand curve obey the law of downward-sloping demand? It certainly does. {Samuelson, 2010 #6096`, p. 48}


>“Certainly”? Half a century earlier, Samuelson reached a very different result.


>In Neoclassical theory, individual demand curves are derived by combining an individual’s tastes—represented by what are called “indifference curves”—with the individual’s income and relative prices. For the market demand curve to have the same properties as an individual demand curve, it must be conceptually possible to represent an entire economy by “social indifference curves”. Samuelson commenced his 1956 paper “Social Indifference Curves” {Samuelson, 1956 #1495} with the concession that this was only possible in extremely limited and clearly unrealistic cases:


<What defense do we make when challenged on the use of community indifference curves for a country or group of individuals? I suppose one of the following:


<(a) We may claim that our country is inhabited by Robinson Crusoe alone and claim only to show how trade between such single person countries is determined. This is admittedly not very realistic.


<(b) In order to give the appearance of being more realistic, we may claim that our country is inhabited by a number of identical individuals with identical tastes; they must also have identical initial endowments of goods if this artifice of examining what happens to the representative individual’s indifference curves is to give us a true description of the resulting market equilibrium. This case, too, is not very realistic, though it may seem a slight improvement over Robinson Crusoe.


<(c) We may claim to be depicting trade of a totalitarian nation. One dictator determines demand within his country and his consistent indifference curves provide us with the community indifference curves for that country. Some might regard this as Robinson Crusoe brought painfully up to date.


<(d) None of the previous explanations meets the case of two (or more) dissimilar individuals within each country. {Samuelson, 1956 #1495`, p. 3. Emphasis added}


>He then proved that community indifference curves were impossible, with the sole exception being “where tastes are identical, not only for all men, but also for all men when they are rich or poor” {Samuelson, 1956 #1495`, p. 5}. This proof showed that a market demand curve derived by adding up multiple individual downward-sloping demand curves could have any shape at all—it did not have to slope down.[2] As later rediscoverers of this conundrum concluded, “The utility hypothesis tells us nothing about market demand” {Shafer, 1993 #349}.[3]


>This should have been “a Pythagorean moment” for economics. Pythagoras believed that all numbers could be expressed as the ratio of two integers: we call such numbers “rational” today. But one of his followers discovered that there were “irrational numbers”: numbers that were not the ratio of two integers. This follower was purportedly drowned for his troubles,[4] but the result was ultimately accepted. The dogma that all numbers were rational was abandoned, and mathematics advanced dramatically as a result.


>This has not happened with economics, because the economists who proved this result {Gorman, 1953 #1491;Samuelson, 1956 #1495;Sonnenschein, 1972 #1484;Sonnenschein, 1973 #1483;Sonnenschein, 1973 #1486;Sonnenschein, 1974 #1482;Kihlstrom, 1976 #1485;Shafer, 1982 #6082;Shafer, 1993 #349} were too wedded to their dogma—the teleological belief that a free market economy maximizes social welfare—to accept this conundrum that they had discovered.


>This led to behaviour by these economists which, in a purely psychological sense, can be characterised as insane. The desire to show that a free-market system maximizes social welfare was so strong that they devised “solutions” to this conundrum which literally contradicted the foundations of Neoclassical thought.


>Samuelson’s solution was to invoke altruism.


>Classical scholars will remember Virgil’s famous warning in The Aeneid to “Be wary of Greeks bearing gifts”.[5] The same warning applies to Neoclassical economists wielding the concept of “altruism”. A theory based entirely on the concept of maximizing self-interest appealing to altruism to overcome a logical conundrum, is as trustworthy as a Wooden Horse at the gates of Troy…

>>2878240
> You will notice that Marx never uses this term in his political economy, but only in his political writings, so it is not in any way a technical term.
>>2878498
>But he's not using the term in any intrinsic sense to the demonstration of political economy. Both "bourgeoisie" and "proletariat" most appear in the prefaces and the historical chapters, while the term "labourer" appears throughout the entire text over a thousand times.
ok i get your point but that's a significant retreat from the much bolder "never"

>>2879509
You're right.
I was hyperbolic.
>>2879355
I'm currently re-reading Carl Menger's "Principles of Economics" (1871) and he seems to be the origin of the theory of economic "indifference"; meaning that two goods may provide the same value (e.g. utility) and thus either can be consumed for one another. An example would be how many foods equally satisfy a person, and thus any may be consumed. The value of goods then concerns their symmetry of indifference. Menger deprives this to pre-monetary judgement (latent in immanent contradiction), while Samuelson adds the element of income, according to Keen, making price a measure of value, and thus of effective demand. Wikipedia:
<As price rises for a fixed money income, the consumer seeks the less expensive substitute at a lower indifference curve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indifference_curve
This is only common sense, of course, but it shows the crucial nature of market demand as a function of distributed income. Smith (1776) thus presents a distinction between absolute and effectual demand, being the same difference between desire and availability. If one's income changes one's effectual demand, then this is what determines market equilibrium. Quesnay writes (1767):
< it is the demand, the market, that regulates the production each year.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/quesnay/1767/maxims.htm
This is a reversal of "Say's Law" over a century before Keynes. The presumption of many economists of the 19th century was that the poor were poor because they simply desired less, but if providing more money increases spending, then it must be money which is the limit of effectual demand. A pauper would not burn cash, while a rich man may waste his own. Justice then, is rational re-allocation.

>>2878520
>And the "proletariat" by their own efforts only achieve Fascism.

by themselves as in, directed by bourgeois agents, cause they dont exist in a vacuum. In the hands of communists, they can do more than that. They are the only social agent capable of running communism natively, since all other classes must rid themselves of their class status to avoid a performative contradiction, since their interest lay elsewhere. The proletariat is the only agent whose starting condition enables a strive towards communism. They are the only possible hardware for that program, which doesnt mean they are perfect. Not only because they are the labouring class, the global majority, with no much to loose and yada yada, but also because modernity enables precisely this kind of self-conscious activity on a social scale, in terms of technoscientific progress, economic surplus and philosophic sophistication. This doesnt mean such a wonderful algorithm cant be stucked at a local optimum, such as succdem treats.

>>2879681
well, theres the ass of buridan also

>>2880473
In Menger's theory, the donkey is caught between basic necessities and diamonds in terms of social valuation.
>>2880467
>by themselves as in, directed by bourgeois agents
By themselves means by themselves.
To Lenin, sovialists are "bourgeois" agents (1901):
<The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own effort, is able to develop only trade union consciousness […] The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical, and economic theories elaborated by educated representatives of the propertied classes, by intellectuals. By their social status the founders of modern scientific socialism, Marx and Engels, themselves belonged to the bourgeois intelligentsia. In the very same way, in Russia, the theoretical doctrine of Social-Democracy arose altogether independently of the spontaneous growth of the working-class movement; it arose as a natural and inevitable outcome of the development of thought among the revolutionary socialist intelligentsia.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/ii.htm
The consciousness of labour cannot conceive beyond a consciousness of wages, rather than its abolition, and even worse, as Keynes writes, workers will fight for higher nominal wages at the expense of real wages.

>>2880654
how can the working class be "by itself" when it already always is in a social system influenced by agents other than itself? Do you really believe that when they achieve fascism "by themselves" the bourgeoise get benefitted on a purely accidental, unintended way, as if it was a spontaneus thing the proletariat itself devised in total isolation?

Granted, when organized under a labour movement, they cant get beyond trade unionism or economism, this is why I said that "communists" can install the program onto them, and communist can come from any given class, as long as they got the program in. Besides, what you answered to wasnt even the core of my argument, which was saying that if they reach fascism or economism, is because their behaviour was stuck at a local optimum, not because their inherent nature leads exclusively to it or something like that. They can be directed to communism as well, which would be their global optimum, which is at the same time the hardest one to achieve, because of the very strong entropy of capital. In fact, they are the only historical class with such a capability, to date at least.

>>2880764
>Do you really believe that when they achieve fascism "by themselves" the bourgeoise get benefitted on a purely accidental, unintended way, as if it was a spontaneus thing the proletariat itself devised in total isolation?
No, since a proletariat presupposes a bourgeoisie. This is why chauvinist politics quite often advantage local capitalists. Most Marxists today base their politics in whatever advances the national capital of China, as an example. The German National Socialists were backed by German industrialists; Italian capitalists in Italy, etc.
>when organized under a labour movement, they cant get beyond trade unionism or economism, this is why I said that "communists" can install the program onto them, and communist can come from any given class, as long as they got the program in.
But what does this imply except that politics is idealist?
>not because their inherent nature leads exclusively to it or something like that
Why wouldn't it be? The interests of labour are wages, which means a preservation of capitalist institutions.
>they are the only historical class with such a capability
Such a capability to what? Capital is global. Labour is local.

  1. The fact that achieving a different mode of production requires self-conscious and rational activity doesn't logically entail any form of idealist ontology by itself. Rational activity on a social scale is perfectly compatible with materialism. Humans are highly complex animals that through the evolution and the historical development of language and social institutions have reached meta-cognitive and self-conscious operations. And only in modernity or capitalism has the range of this kind of self-conscious activity reached a global scale.

  2. Not only wages, a strategy focused on wages would be a very clear case of getting stuck at a local optimum, such as a fungi overcommitting its mycelium in a determinate patch, from which it gets enough nutrition to survive, instead of expanding into other nearby patches, that provide much more opportunity for growth. Also in the interest of labourers is their development in the full range of human qualities, which they cannot achieve because they have to work alienating shitty jobs. This is also true of the capitalist class, but unlike the labouring class, their own constitution REQUIRES competitive, predatory and even cannibalistic behaviour, unlike that of the labouring class, which IS CAPABLE of a universally cooperative behaviour, although it IS ALSO CAPABLE of cannibalistic, competitive behaviour, BUT, unlike the bourgies, it DOESN'T REQUIRE IT. The fact that the capitalist class has to be eliminated from the game doesn't take away this fact, it rather says much more about the bottlenecks of the capitalist system and class than any inherent violence or hostility or non-cooperativeness in the working class.


I bet that if you somehow were an abstract observer considering anatomically modern humans in prehistoric times, by your logic you would conclude that they are only capable of organizing into hunter-gatherer societies, since their only incentive is to collect food or some shit. But humans have so complex capabilities as to wonder how many possible systems can they organize themselves in, even global ones, how many things can they do… Something that to wonder about both hypothetically, in an abstract plane, and in the prospect of the infinite years to come from this determinate point in history.

  1. Labour is already global in many other senses, since the mode of production, technical knowledge, production processes, and even workforce is largely integrated in a global system, both theoretically (modern technoscience, measuring systems, engineering, etc.) and practically (as in, an actual global economy). But I understand you mean political capability. Labour has such a global capability if there is a global communist movement. But to bring about this global movement and succeeding in its objectives is, understandably, the hardest task in the world, since it is the creation of a complex system of order countering directly the main force of entropy in the globe, which is capital, and thus, it is probabilistically the least likely thing to happen, although not at all impossible. Capital itself has provided means to bring about such a transformation, although it continuously counteracts the operation in countless ways. What is clear is that it can only happen through the labouring class, since all other classes can't host the behaviour of universality required for the task, like I said in point 2.

>>2881269
>The fact that achieving a different mode of production requires self-conscious and rational activity doesn't logically entail any form of idealist ontology
This isn't a philosophical discussion; it's a discussion of politics. To you, communists are able to come from any class in society, and effective action is simply putting theory into practice, making ideas the political pivot on which things depend upon, and making ideas universal of reason, rather than particular to class interest. I have a more materialist view that what is universal of class consciousness is the only universal class of the citizen, although "civil government" often disguises particular interest as common interest. Adam Smith writes on this dilemma (1776):
<Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defence of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book05/ch01b.htm
A similar point is made by Marx in the Manifesto (1848).
This is the struggle for universality in general (1875):
<Hence, equal right here is still in principle – bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

>>2878409
the anon you are replying to is conflating language games, not you, if they are using etymology as a trump card while failing to remember that words mean different things in different contexts.

Net worth just went up $8k in two days

>>2883855
did you do some degenerate options trade?

File: 1785834027858-0.jpg (215.27 KB, 1350x1350, dar.jpg)

>>2883856
Mostly mutual funds.

>>2883855
This is a very cool webm. I especially enjoy the red background the artistic representation of an luminescent red movement and find it to be an incredible artistic representation.

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The Austrian School begins with Carl Menger (1840–1921), who after beginning his economic study in 1867, published the "Principles of Economics" (1871), which at the time was not widely received. It was only with later works from 1883-4 that he gained attention in a dispute entitled the "methodology struggle" (Methodenstreit), where the "Austrian" School also gained it's namesake. In the same year we get the early works of both Böhm-Bawerk and Wieser, who are its earliest representatives.

We read in James Bonar's "The Austrian Economists and their View of Value" (1888) the direct comparison between Jevons' and Mengers' theory of value. Indeed, Wieser takes Jevons' "final degree of utility" and from it crafts the term "marginal utility" (1884) to mean the same thing. Menger illustrates the same principle but in less eloquent (e.g. formal) terms, and so this stands. In approaching the so-called "Neoclassical" and "Austrian" Schools, what stands between them? Wieser in "The Austrian School and the Theory of Value" (1891) claims that Jevons' view is a "narrower view" of price and value, where value only manifests as price, while to Austrians, value expresses something intrinsic to our experience.

We must start with Menger's "Principles" (1871), which begins with a consideration of causation (Ch. 1, Sct. 1). A thing which is known to have the capacity to satisfy a human need is called a "useful thing" (Nützlichkeiten), which if it may be commanded, is a "good". All goods have a goods-character (Güterqualität). Goods may either be "true" or "imaginary" in their means to satisfy, and thus, goods-character is not arbitrary. The nature of goods can be given in "relationships" (Verhältnisse), as well as individual items. Menger resolves that goods are of two kinds: (i) material goods, and (ii) useful human in/activity; e.g. labour and its product. Causal connections may be seen between goods (Ch. 1, Sct. 2), such that what is directly consumed in bread is a result of goods which indirectly cause our satisfaction (e.g. flour). What is directly consumed is thus a good "of the first order", while what is indirect is of the second/third/fourth, etc. order. The more orders of good, the more indirect causes, and so the greater the process of production, which henceforth corresponds to a greater length of time in production (Ch. 1, Sct. 4). Goods which belong to the same order as each other are "complementary goods", and these are used to create goods of different orders (Ch. 1, Sct. 3A–B). The goods-character of higher and lower orders are thus codependent of each other, toward the end of realising the end of the consumption of goods of first order. If goods fail to serve the ends of consumption, they lose their corresponding goods-character, so are useless. In general, the knowledge of production is uncertain, and relative to the knowledge of society (Ch. 1, Sct. 4); thus, what was previously useless may become useful, given greater a causal conception (e.g. scientific technique). The progress of wealth is seen to be based in the division of labour (Ch. 1, Sct. 5), which thus varies the production of particular goods. The increased variety of goods able to be commanded thus measures wealth, which itself depends upon an increase in goods of higher order. Thus, civilisation and barbarism differ in regard to the scale of ordered goods; by the complexity of production, and of course, human knowledge in general is the basis of all advancement.

Needs are said to arise from our natural drives (Ch. 2, Sct. 0), which concretely correspond to the consumption of a certain quantity of goods. This quantity is seen as a man's "requirements" (Bedarf), or "demand" (Nachfrage). Adequate knowledge of requirement entails planning in advance for the satisfaction of need, and it is this long-term, or provident activity, that also defines civilisation. Goods of first order are "consumption goods", and goods of higher order are termed "means of production" (Ch. 2, Sct. 1A–B). Production is measured from periods of time, designated "Period I, II, III", etc. that corresponds to each sequential good of higher order (Ch. 2, Sct. 1C). Thus, Period I measures the time from a second order good to the production of a first order good; Period II is the period from the third to the second, and so on. The length of provident activity for civilised production is thus given according to these recorded periods of time. All complex forms of production are evidently planned, strengthened by record-keeping, along with government statistics (Ch. 2, Sct. 2). The rational assorting of goods based in the priority of their use is called "economising" (Ch. 2, Sct. 3A), based in the order of consumption, from necessary to luxury goods. Where scarcity reigns, each member of a society will thus compete to economise the available goods for themselves, and it is opposition of self-interest which manifests the institution of law for the protection of property. Economy and property thus have the same origin, in the scarcity of requirement for the satisfaction of (social) need. Abundance thus allows for "non-economic goods" to persist (Ch. 2, Sct. 3B), and so where there is a greater number of available goods than necessary to satisfy people, the status of property also declines. Thus, Menger sees that a propertyless "communism" is the norm where social demand is much lower than the social supply. Oxygen is common to all. The non/economic status of goods is thus dependent upon the requirements given from a certain population (Ch. 2, Sct. 3C). Menger attributes causes for changes in social requirement: (i) change in total population, and (ii) change in human knowledge. There are intermediate goods in economic status also, which largely exist as public services, such as schooling. Menger also adds that abundant goods may become artificially scarce as a result of force - he gives the example of monopolists of land. Since command of these non-economic goods is henceforth restricted, they attain economic character. Quality and quantity is compared, where greater quality attains a smaller quantity for the satisfaction of the same need (Ch. 3, Sct. 2C). Just as the goods-character of a good of lower order determines that of the higher, so too is it the case for their economic character (e.g. scarcity), so to Menger, higher economic goods cannot produce non-economic goods (Ch. 2, Sct. 3D). Just as the entire sum of goods at a person's disposal is his "property", a sum of economic goods is his wealth (Ch. 2, Sct. 4). So then, one's wealth is a result of the lack of requirement from one's property. Wealth may extend to governments in particular, and of social wealth (e.g. "national wealth") in general, Menger advises that this is a sum of individual economising units, and shan't be made legally fictitious.

From these theories of concrete human needs leading to goods, which in quantities of requirement, possess an economic character of wealth, as a type of property, we finally come to the theory of value (Ch. 3, Sct. 1). Value is said to have the same origin as economisation, that it is the importance we impute to goods, and so it is only economic goods which possess "value". All goods have "utility", but not all goods are economic. The measure of value given is twofold (Ch. 3, Sct. 2): (i) degree of importance given to a good (subjective factor), and (ii) the command of each good (objective factor). The first case is simply measured by pleasure, given in quantities of duration and intensity (Ch. 3, Sct. 2A), mapping to a scale of degrees of importance (read: pleasure) given from each good. This is in essence a geometry of the total utility of each good, which thus measures its value, yet as satisfaction is diminished, it reaches "equilibrium" with the marginal utilities of other goods, for which the consumption of one good over another is economically rationalised. This is scaled, like all goods, from what is most necessary to least necessary - the least necessary possessing the lowest total utility, or least importance. Upon this point, Menger writes that from circumstances of quenched thirst, water attains a lesser value than diamonds, since the importance of water becomes less than what may be fulfilled by luxury. Conversely, he says that the need for water may be greater than diamonds only in extreme circumstances of thirst. Ultimately, he insists that it is scarcity which measures the value of these goods (Ch. 3, Sct. 2B). The nature and measure of value are repeated to be subjective (Ch. 3, Sct. 2D), and this dispells any attempt to equalise value with labour or costs necessary for re-production. Examples Menger provides are naturally scarce products which exact a value without consideration of reproduction, and also an incongruity between means of production and a product which may have different total values. He repeats the axiom that the value of goods is determined from an imputation of the importance of goods to satisfying our needs, but is careful to add that this is not just arbitrary. As a reversal of attributing value to costs of production, Menger instead sees that it is the "expected value" of means of production from their final product which is the cause of their requirement (Ch. 3, Sct. 3A). So, just as both the goods-character and economic character of the lower order determines that of the higher order, so too is it the case of the prospective value of the lower for the higher. Present goods, on the other hand, may be different in value than in prospective goods. Goods of higher order are exclusively determined by prospectivity. Upon these means of production, Menger speaks of the "services of capital" (Ch. 3, Sct. 3B), which he claims is not reimbursed by interest upon "abstinence", but upon the simple purchase of a valuable service. Abstinence by itself adds nothing, Menger claims, and from this, he adds that capital is often original of "seizure", where like his earlier example of land monopoly, the services of capital may be commanded by force to meet certain ends. The services of capital are renumerated by the "entrepenurial activity" of the capitalist (Ch. 3, Sct. 3C), or classically, "wages of superintendence", which must then be included within the prospective value of capital. Entrepeneurial activity is given as: (i) information, (ii) economic calculation, (iii) willingness, (iv) supervision. As he adds, the larger the capital, the more entrepeneurs who are required (e.g. managers). Menger also rejects a notion of "risk" management as entrepeneurial activity, although he writes that transport costs are factored into the value of higher order goods, as service. Since the prospective value of capital includes interest, Menger sees that present goods are reduced in value, and so this resolves earlier comments on incongruity. From this, the value of land, if it's to be treated as means of production, is determined in the same way, although Menger declines to affirm "rent" as a service of the land owner, but still rejects Ricardo's theory of ground-rent (Ch. 3, Sct. 3E). Menger also determines the value of the services of labour as prospective of their final product.

The next chapter moves to economic exchange, which as Menger writes, cannot be an end in itself, but only a means to an end; this end being increased satisfaction (Ch. 4, Sct. 1–2). The origin of exchange is the surplus of a good which serves no use to its owner, and a use to another. The mutual transfer of goods adds value to the good which is sold (e.g. W+x). The limits of exchange are then evidently given by a diminishment of gain unto a lack of mutual gain. Where trade cannot offer added value, there is no economic reason in trade. Thus, it is mutual gain (x) which determines economic exchange, by means of bargaining. Moving to prices (e.g. mutually exchanged quantities), Menger considers different forms. Isolated exchange (Ch. 5, Sct. 1) results in a perfect equilibrium of mutual gain (e.g. since there is equal supply and demand). With monopoly (Ch. 5, Sct. 2–3), we see that the less supply and greater demand, the price will increase with the one who offers the most, and so a monopoly of sellers produces a competition of purchasers. With greater supply of the monopoly good, the price tends to diminish, leading to greater purchase. Thus, while mutual gain in bargaining leads to formation of prices, the "laws" of exchange are supply and demand.

Next, economic goods are decoded from their: (i) direct and (ii) indirect value, or between (i) use-value, and (ii) exchange-value (Ch. 6, Sct. 1). As Menger continues, the only value a good can have in an isolated economy is a use-value (Ch. 6, Sct. 2). As use-values diminish in their direct satisfaction as wealth, they may transform into exchange-values for their possessors (Ch. 6, Sct. 3), like the surplus product of trade goods already discussed. Products which expand beyond the household and are ready to be sold (e.g. goods which possess exchange-value) are called "commodities" (Ch. 7, Sct. 1), and so economic goods possessing a "commodity-character" (Waarencharakter). By their nature, commodities are only transitory, and so by conversion into a use-value, they cease to be commodities as such. Money as a commodity thus possesses the same waarencharakter - Menger criticises fiat currency (Ch. 8, Sct. 4), yet in other places, permits the reality of fiat money (e.g. "Lectures to Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria", 1876). He also describes the effectual demand of commodities as a factor of their "marketability" (Ch. 7, Sct. 2A–C), while he prefers the term "saleability" for money. On money, he continues that money is a "natural" creation of custom, and not the state (Ch. 8, Sct. 1), although, he separates "money" from "coin" (e.g. a particular type of money). He adds that the state has perfected money by intervention, but is not its origin - he repeats this in his later article "The Origins of Money" (1892), which is not in any way an historical document. It is the increased "saleability" of certain commodities which grant them the form of money (Ch. 8, Sct. 2), and the form of money thus changes throughout history, with precious metals becoming more important as civilisation expands, yet Menger wants to restate that value is subjective, and so where money serves as means of circulation, it is itself not in any way a representation of "value" (Ch. 8, Sct. 3). Money thus is neither a "measure" nor "store" of value. He rather sees money's imperishability and divisibility as more intrinsic factors of its service (Ch. 8, Sct. 4). This is also the underwhelming conclusion of Menger's book.

So then, to summarise what is written: Originally, man existed in a state of primitive communism where goods were abundant, until some type of disruption which led to scarcity and property, either as an oversupply of the population, or the forceful acquisition of resources, or both at different times. The division of property also led to the division of labour, creating varied resources and so a scale of relative values. As productivity increases, goods are distributed in more variable fashion, but also leading to the creation of luxuries which are valued at a rate beyond the security of necessities. The turn from a household economy to a commercial economy converts goods from use-values to exchange-values, and so the form of commodities, most especially money, and thus the abundance of money signifies a rise in uselessness, since circulation is merely transitory. The rise of social wealth must mean the provision of "true" goods over "imaginary" goods, which are assessed by the rational judgement of economic individuals, which can include governments. All providential production is planned, and all planning entails economic calculation. Therefore, the basis of social production is the soundness of planning. This all has its socialist rhetoric. Engels (1894):
<it is just as easy to build up an at least equally plausible vulgar socialism on the basis of this theory, as that built in England on the foundation of Jevons’s and Menger’s theory of use-value and marginal utility.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/pref.htm
I would also recommend this excellent article on the early Austrians:
https://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-are-there-no-austrian-socialists.html?m=1

Rupert Lowe's economic prescriptions for the UK:
https://www.restorebritain.org.uk/the_wealth_of_our_nation
  • Return to the administration of >1997, when GDP was made up by 33% public spending, rather than 45% today.
  • Triple lock pensions will be ended, and will only trace from CPI (e.g. the rate of general inflation). Immigrants will not be able to claim benefits. Rates of working age benefits will be fixed at 2025/6 levels.
  • The Bank of England will be re-nationalised.
  • QUANGOs will be reviewed by ministers.
  • Only national citizens will be able to use the NHS freely, while immigrants will have to pay. Private healthcare will be made tax-deductible. NHS management will operate more like a business to improve internal efficiency.
  • Schools will be exempt from VAT. Private schools will be tax deductible at the marginal rate of income tax.
  • Taxes will be simplified by abolishing sin taxes related to climate change. Inheritance tax and stamp duty will also be abolished. VAT will be lowered to 18%. Personal allowance will be raised to £16,000 and the basic rate of income tax (20%) will extend from £16,001–£100,000. Corporation tax will only be given after £50,000 profits.
  • Ultimately, the public is said to save £180 Billion (10%).


The screed of this document is in its opening remarks, where Lowe compares the UK to the USSR by directly calling it a "corporatist command economy". The text is interspersed by various ideological oppositions to the red scare of Socialism - despite this, Lowe is not quite a grand economic reformer, essentially seeking a return to the late 1990s, and not smashing the state, of which he feigns so much about. His milquetoast suggestions are hardly notable, besides the idiocy of his position on VAT. To make the case clear, his proposals are said to save £20 Billion, and if we say that 40 Million people pay VAT, this amounts to £500/y, or £1.40 a day. These are average numbers, and so scaled by consumption. It is the richest who pay most VAT per capita, and so lower earners hardly save £0.50 a day - worst is its crippling of public power by a non-marginal empowerment of the private sector. It is quite literally a lose-lose policy to lower VAT a smidge, and it would be a win-win to raise it. For the same reasons, you could abolish income tax and replace it with a 50% VAT to make up the difference. So, my hard objection is this basic VAT incompetence.

For the rest, we see that Lowe is pivoting to the middle classes, exclusively, diagnosing the general problems of the economy likewise [pg. 2]: "Businesses are allowed to stay in private hands, but increasingly find themselves fettered by regulation, price controls, minimum wages, employment laws, and a network of rapacious lawyers, increasingly feasting like parasites on the back of productive Britain." Along with the raising of non-taxed profits and an expansion of the basic rate of income tax, Lowe is specifically appealing to those who have around £50,000–£100,000, while deriding the interests of the lower earners (>£50,000) as "parasites" on productivity. As I say, however, there is an incongruity between this rhetoric and its policy. If the minimum wage is an issue, why not seek to abolish it? Labour only introduced the minimum wage into law in 1997, the time when things supposedly went wrong in Britain. All bark and no bite.

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According to Ricardo, the law of Value is only present where there is free competition between producers, which then determines the prices of commodities as costs of production (e.g. minimum prices), as opposed to "monopoly prices", which are the maximum, based in a competition between customers. Menger concurs that monopoly leads to the highest marginal price. We see Engels as early as 1843 describe the monetary system as a "monopoly", which would then mean that money as an asset has no value, even if it has costs of production. We also see Gesell (1916) bemoan the liberals for a free market of all things besides money. Aristotle writes that money's worth is based on the fiat of the state, and we see that this continues into the Roman system, which attempted to fix prices relative to its fiat currency. Fixing exchange rates by regulating prices is also seen in the Ancient Near East by explicit law codes setting the value of various labours relative to precious metals like silver.

Marx himself (1867) remarks that the ancients did not adequately treat money as a commodity, and that this was the problem, since the law of value undermined the conspiracies of the ruling class to defraud the general public - we see this apparent law of value active from Gresham's Law, theorised as early as Copernicus (1513), who wrote that the standard of coinage tends toward its lowest grade of metal, yet this only pertains to domestic coin, which by influence of increased velocity must be debased. Marx also concurs that added velocity lowers the value of money, and here is the first issue of seeing money as a "value". We read that Copernicus holds to a need for shift in the exchange rate based in the quantity of money (e.g. capacity of trade), and this can only be effected by treating money relative to a prior calculation rather than the market setting a rate. The gold standard in Britain was itself accidentally set by the fixing of rates by Newton in 1717, and so the manual accounting of the exchange rate reveals a system of monopoly. If money can simply be fixed at a certain rate, then why did Rome struggle to keep its price controls against merchants? If fiat should decide, the nominal should become real, like the breath of life given to the image of God, yet as it is evident, like a simulation of Narcissus' watery reflection, it is really substanceless, and so drowns its captivators. Hollowness can preserve an external image, but as the brittleness of a shell progresses, it soon comes to ruin. Money then, is nothing in itself, and only substantial in relation to other things (e.g. the products of labour), lest we should say that creating money creates new wealth of its own accord. The Romans believed this, but in vain.

These problems are discussed by Kautsy (1912), that if money has no value, then how can it measure values? In his response to Rudolf Hilderding, he thus shows how value is relative to ratios of supply, as found in Marx's original work, but the supply of money is presumed to be caused by its costs. The nature of monopoly is that it limits supply, and so it limits its relative price, but in each case (e.g. either of a natural or market price), the principle of effective supply is given. Exchange-value to Marx is a ratio of effective supply in the market [x:y], with value being the proportion between each product. All is perfectly intelligible, therefore, in the realm of appearances, that it is the effective supply of goods which determines exchange rates, and so we uncover the mystery - the ruin of Roman fiat was not in the pretension to monopoly controls, but that in issuing a debased coinage, it exceeded an effective supply for the control of prices. We call the market competition for money "counterfeiting", since by introducing cost as the natural factor of effective supply, prices are attained by their values, which is not beneficial to governments.

We see then in Aristotle, the consciousness of money as a state asset, which is its privilege, granted by existing monopoly on force. Graeber (2011) also sees that the executive status of money creation is a social control system, where if all goods are only transferrable by a particular medium of exchange, then it is demand for money which drives its relative supply (e.g. value). Thus, MMT consents to the perspective that it is taxation that determines the value of money, but this is still admitted to be caused by a prior monopoly of force in the state (this is also implied by Menger). So, all money prices are monopoly prices. The value of the precious metals in themselves is therefore separate from the use of these metals for coinage. We see that supply has a natural limit according to production costs, yet denominations scale value otherwise (e.g. the penny is more expensive to produce than the dollar, yet a dollar is worth more than a penny - the law of value is absent). Monopoly in the state thus manually determines the price of money by stamp (e.g. the face of a coin which authorises its distribution in a chosen territory). Thus, as Jesus tells us (Matthew 22), money is the sovereign possession of Caesar. We thus merely rent this token of the state, by coercion.

Here is the 3rd Edition of my English translation of Antoine Montchrétien's "Treatise on Political Economy" (1615). This book is known for inventing the neologism "Political Economy", which in its context, refers to the principles of oikonomia (οἰκονομία) applied to the state (πόλις), and so displaying continuity between the economic and political. This sense of primacy enters the third estate into consideration, which as Montchrétien has it, elevates the Mechanical Arts to the importance of the Liberal Arts. We see a difference of this view from the ancients, who from Aristotle to Cicero, saw the Mechanical Arts as "unnatural" and only fit for lower orders. This book is then reflective of capitalist modernity - and is the birth of Political Economy.

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Seems like AI-bubble will crash economies even in a good case-scenario according to ECB predictions.

>>2892125
Ok but is this in any way useful outside of historical curiosity?

>>2895595
Define "useful".
If you are interested in political economy,
you should be interested in the book.
It is an academic concern, not a practical one.

>>2895600
>Define "useful".
Something that can be used to further socialist goals.
>you should be interested in the book.
I did presentation about this book in university but I don't understand how this is relevant for socialist theory outside the fact that its the first use of this term.

>>2895629
>Socialist Theory
Whose socialist theory? We may read Lenin (1920):
<I must say that the tasks of the youth in general, and of the Young Communist Leagues and all other organisations in particular, might be summed up in a single word: learn […] Marxism is an example which shows how communism arose out of the sum of human knowledge […] You can become a Communist only when you enrich your mind with a knowledge of all the treasures created by mankind […] Communism will become an empty word, a mere signboard, and a Communist a mere boaster, if all the knowledge he has acquired is not digested in his mind.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/oct/02.htm
You are asking how knowledge may be a means to an end, without considering knowledge as an end in itself. By the words of Lenin: learn.

>>2895638
Lenin is talking about synthesizing human knowledge to build communism and not treating historical books as sacred texts with intrinsic value. Learning new knowledge means that youre able to apply it to develop modern theory and praxis and not treating historical trivia as an end in itself.

If Marxism is indeed scientific socialism it must function like a science. Modern biologists dont learn genetics by reading Darwins Origins of Species and physicists dont study gravity from Newton Principia. Treating 19th century texts as the primary focus is historiography not political economy.

>>2895644
>Treating 19th century texts as the primary focus is historiography not political economy.
I presume you think reading Marx is a waste of time then, since you happen to see "19th century texts" as trivial and impractical. Like Mao, you are a book burner - a philistine unconcerned with world-history.

>>2895658
That’s a good thing though, history is only an albatross on the necks of the living, cast it all out

>>2895658
>I presume you think reading Marx is a waste of time then,
Its a foundation on which to build new knowledge on. I was implying that socialists should focus on latest theory instead.

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>>2895659
So it would be better to burn the world's libraries and throw all of the relics of the past into the ocean to start again with a little red book? You ever think that you sound a bit like zealous theocrats who want the world to revolve around a few holy books, with culture being a stain against the Church?
>>2895662
>A foundation for new knowledge
So "new knowledge" is the end you have in mind, then?
>socialists should focus on latest theory
If new knowledge is based on the old, shouldn't the old be a priority? How can we know what is most new without the most old?

>>2895665
>So "new knowledge" is the end you have in mind, then?
Absolutely. Falsified scientific knowledge should end up in trash instead of turning into dogma.
>shouldn't the old be a priority?
Depends on how familiar you are with these works. If youre well versed focus on new theory.

>>2895668
>If you're well-versed
And you only become well-versed by reading the old, right?
So, if the new depends on the old, we should begin with the old.

>>2895672
>And you only become well-versed by reading the old, right?
I guess so.

>>2895835
Now, to give courtesy to your concern, it is true that reading the work of Antoine Montchrétien is unproductive to the ends of Communism - but it is also entirely impractical to achieve a political revolution by reading as such. The conflict of theory and practice is absolute in any case. While we are reading, we are not acting, and it cannot be otherwise. Education is then a passive exercise, but still valuable. I would say that reading is also better than writing, as evidenced by social media. Marx himself overwrote much of his work into obscurity.

>>2895665
>So it would be better to burn the world's libraries and throw all of the relics of the past into the ocean to start again with a little red book?

Probably.

>>2895946
Anon that's pretty dumb considering Marx himself was a classics major

>>2895858
it's funny how much time Marx dedicated to Stirner

Luther begins by chastising merchants as prone to the inevitable sin of greed, but nevertheless sees its need:
<It is not to be denied that buying and selling are necessary. They cannot be dispensed with and can be practiced in a Christian manner, especially when the articles of trade serve a necessary and honourable purpose. For in this wise even the patriarchs bought and sold cattle, wool, grain, butter, milk, and other goods. These are gifts of God, which He bestows out of the earth and distributes among men.
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_trade_and_usury.phtml
Thus he qualifies trade, which where it serves need and honour, is a blessing, but as he continues, it becomes unnecessary where it gives license to trade of "foreign" luxuries, in particular (which he describes as having "no useful purpose"), which transfer Germany's gold and silver out of the country; by the Frankfurt fair (e.g. an international marketplace) which Luther describes as:
<Frankfurt is the golden and silver hole through which everything that springs and grows, is minted or coined here, flows out of Germany.
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_trade_and_usury.phtml
And so he has a preliminary concern with the wealth of his nation, in a proto-Mercantilist sense of balancing trade. He continues that if this market was ended, then the people would no longer be robbed by usury, either. However, he submits to the market, saying "we Germans must remain Germans"; which is to say, in their habits of vice; as he later writes, concerns "drinking and dancing".

The next part deals with "unrighteous prices", which as he writes, begins in the common motto: "I shall sell my wares as dear as I can." We read in Ibn Khaldun (1377) that the merchant's method is to 'buy low and sell high,' and so as a matter of common sense, this is his profit. Luther sees that merchandising is by nature sinful in its greedy formulations, and further, he writes this about it:
<On this basis trade can be nothing else than robbing and stealing other people's property.
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_trade_and_usury.phtml
And so he views a one-sided gain, but qualifies the terms of merchandising as concerning particular need:
<For when this rogue's eye and greedy belly of a merchant finds that people must have his wares, or that the buyer is poor and needs them, he takes advantage of him and raises the price. He considers, not the value of the goods or what he has earned by his trouble and risk, but only the other man's need; not that he may relieve it, but that he may use it for his own profit, to raise the price of goods, which he would not have raised if it had not been for his neighbour's need. Because of his greed, therefore, the wares must have a price proportioned to his neighbour's need for them, and his neighbour's need, like his own wares, must have a valuation.
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_trade_and_usury.phtml
Here, Luther proposes many different things - price and value becomes separated, with the "worth" of a thing being determinate of price in common circumstances, but where there is added need (e.g. demand), the price will rise to a higher level. So, Luther properly sees that market prices are determined by consumer demand. These are as yet "unrighteous prices", which differ from the following section on "righteous prices". He corrects the mercantile motto by proposing an alternative: "I will sell my wares […] as is right and proper". By "law" ought trade be limited, he says, whence there may be "no injury which is thy gain", and so a mutual gain from exchange. He concludes however, that prices cannot be regulated so uniformly, for the sake of (i) goods being different, (ii) transportation costs, (iii) outlay costs, (iv) labour and (v) risk. All of these elements thus combine into prices. He says that there ought to be price limits, but for now, it is the "common market" and "custom" should set the rate.

In suggesting a standard measure of value, Luther says that the day labourer's time in production measures the comparable toil of the merchant as an adequate return:
<In deciding how much profit you ought to take on your business and your labour, there is no better way to reckon it than by estimating the amount of time and labour you have put on it and comparing it with that of a day labourer, who works at another occupation, and seeing how much he earns in a day. On that basis reckon how many days you have spent in getting your wares and bringing them to your place of business, how great the labour has been and how much risk you have run, for great labour and much time ought to have so much the greater returns.
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_trade_and_usury.phtml
So then, Luther has a Labour Theory of Value, given by the time spent, its "greatness" and its risk - which ought to return a greater reward proportional to these factors. Luther then comes to borrowing money, which as he says, cannot concern exploitation between Christians:
<Borrowing would be a fine thing, if it were practiced between Christians. In that case everyone would return what he had borrowed and the lender would willingly do without it if the borrower could not pay; for Christians are brethren and one does not forsake another, nor is any of them so lazy and shameless as not to work, but to depend on another's wealth and labour, or be willing to consume in idleness another's goods.
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_trade_and_usury.phtml
But where Christians are not present, there is cheating another of their property. Luther sees that custom has the cost of risk applied to loans, and so this is factored into the total cost, as previously listed from before. So then, the value of goods is to be based on the labour and risk applied to acquiring goods. Adam Smith (1776):
<The real price of everything, what everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch05.htm
So then, as given from Rothbard's judgement, perhaps there is a protestant inception inherent in the Labour Theory of Value?


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