/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2825084
>Most poor countries have a massive surplus of labour and a massive deficit of capital

B-but rich countries exporting capital is imperialist or something o algo

>>2825100
Exporting capital is a basic feature of imperialism, yes.

>>2825100
They lack capital because they've never been allowed to accumulate a surplus, not because they've been exporting it. Imperialist countries export capital because their own markets are already saturated with it and the room for growth is limited. Countries only begin to export capital when they have too much of it, not too little.

>>2824730
Seems to like it's more of a clash between working class black Americans and petit bourgeois diaspora from Africa and the Caribbean. Either way, it's a class conflict and not one based on "muh shared history" and "muh National values" like the commentoKKKrats are saying.

>>2825118
it worked for China

>>2825119
China was a special case. They were allied with the US for the last 20 years of the Cold War and a lot of people assumed that their rapid liberalization would lead inevitably to their absorption into the Western orbit. People thought it would be like the collapse of the USSR but slower and less messy. By the time it was clear that this wasn't happening it was already too late.

>>2824922
More like most self-proclaimed leftists and socialist are actually just nationalists who're currently backing the losing side of global geopolitics.

>>2825084
>Those who want to leave should leave, those who want to move there should move there, and those who want to stay should stay.
Yeah states decide that, not you. If they really don't want people to leave or enter, they just have to shoot people who try to cross the border without authorization. This method worked very well historically. Not really desirable, but it shows that immigration isn't a force of nature like gravity. It's also absurd to argue for individual freedom instead of collective responsibility as a socialist or something.

>Most poor countries have a massive surplus of labour and a massive deficit of capital.
Comparative advantage theory? Really? What's next, is wage labour is an equal and balanced relationship between two consenting parties?

I don't really see how can you be a socialist and be for immigration. A reduction in immigration would both lend itself very well to socialist/anti-imperialist developmentalist projects in the "third world" and to movements in the West to seeking to reestablish a working class through state investment. This then could lead to the resurgence of worker's parties, if this task isn't undertaken by the working class in the first place.

You could argue that a reduction in immigration will only come as a consequence of a broader economic policy, but even then it would be insane to not latch onto the losers of globalization as a support base in the West, especially today's (social) media-driven politics landscape which is less about policy and more about pointing fingers and making noise.

This whole FBA/tether thing proves that the Democratic strategy of racializing poverty to extinguish revolutionary movements has been defeated and that sakaism is a dead end for American communists.

>>2825119
And it only costed sacrificing 1/6th of the world population into the global capital machinery, revitalizing capitalism during its biggest time of crisis and betraying the socialist bloc + the third world.
But I guess it's ok in the end because the Chinese now have cool buildings and Labubus I guess.

>>2825123
>This method worked very well historically.
No it didn't, you shit eating liar. One of the posts you replied to in order to initiate this conversation explicitly identified the 20th century origin of border controls in Britain (the world superpower at the time!)

I might come back to the rest of your fanfiction tier drivel, but not until you engage with the question about why cities (or, indeed, regional governments) should not also have border controls based on the same principle.

>>2824888
MaoAnon you're a shining diamond in this garbage heap.

>>2825084
That is all well and good until imperialist powers bribe the workers to go to them and all the investment that you made on human capital gets sent there. There is a reason the USSR and much of the Warsaw Pact countries regulated internal migration

>>2825115
Just because africans arent retarded like african-americans diesnt make them petit-bourgouisie.
Or do you just fetish lumpen and poverty?

>>2825138
American (and Western more generally) immigration laws are such that you pretty much can't come here legally unless you're petty bourgeois or a member of the intelligentsia, or maybe a refugee or something. The petty bourgeoisie and PMCs are hugely overrepresented among immigrants from the third world. That Anon is right to identify a class dynamic at play here.

>>2825169
So are you telling people to not get an education and settle for a poor paying job?

>>2825170
No? How did you take that meaning? I'm just identifying the material interests that are causing the dispute between "tethers" and "FBAs". It's pretty clearly a case of the former having class interests aligned with the status quo and the latter misdirecting their class resentment into xenophobia.

>>2825138
define lumpen

>>2825121
>>2825119
It worked and continues to work for every country on the planet. Export of Western capital and knowhow and inclusion into Western market is the main reason for industrialization everywhere on Earth to this very day. Even now, China starts crying and making threats when Western countries start implementing the exact same protectionist policies that China has.

Leftist economic theory of "Imperialism" after colonialism is totally botched and retarded.

>>2825193
>It worked and continues to work for every country on the planet
No it didn't. China is not geopolitically subservient to the West. It was assumed that integration into the world markets would lead not only to this, but a transition to a liberal political system, the abandonment of developmentalism, and China settling into a Brazil or India near-periphery type role in the world economy (i.e. raw materials and low-mid tier manufacturing without substantial high tech or tertiary sectors). However none of those things came to fruition.
>Even now, China starts crying and making threats when Western countries start implementing the exact same protectionist policies that China has.
Yeah and? They want to do business. That doesn't mean the West has succeeded in subjugating them. Besides, those policies have simply proven self destructive because they aren't combined with any kind of coherent state management of the economy.

>>2825215
>No it didn't. China is not geopolitically subservient to the West.

I mean it worked to develop the countries, which is what the discussion is about. Leftists say "imperialism bad" meanwhile it was "imperialism" that is enabling the industrialization of the third world for the past 70 years, including China. China is also not the only country on the planet that is industrializing.

>It was assumed that integration into the world markets would lead not only to this, but a transition to a liberal political system, the abandonment of developmentalism

The abandonment of developmentalism (Keynesianism) is happening tho, it happens because the rate of profit falls. The exact same reason why Keynesian policies were drawn down in the West. The CPC is making statements about how its going to increase consumption, decrease manufacturing investment, allow currency to appreciate, and is decreasing its GDP forecasts every year.

Also the West does give a shit about liberalism. The West has no problem having genocidal dictatorships like Saudi Arabia or Israel as its allies.

>China settling into a Brazil or India near-periphery type role in the world economy

Neither Brazil or India are "settling"' into near periphery. India has a growing economy. Both are also increasingly geopolitically independent, against BOTH the West AND China. You know, that's what multipolarism is actually about. Brazil's stagnation has nothing to do with le evil West, it has to do with an incompetent bourgeoisie, corruption and low-quality human capital. Poland for example, went from poorer than Brazil to near first-world economically thanks to high-quality human capital, lower corruption and competent economic management.

There are many many factors that determine a country economic growth beyond "le subservient to West" (the same West that enables its industrialization in the first place). This is what I mean when I talk about the RETARDED Leftist understand of "imperialism". Its vague bullshit thats used to completely ignore any understanding of the actual economic, cultural and political situation of a country.

>Yeah and? They want to do business

It means that leftist understanding of imperialism is retarded. Imperialism is "le export of capital" but when Western countries want to implement capital controls, China cries about it. Meaning China WANTS "imperialism" while engaging in "imperialism" itself in third world countries, and increasingly even in the West where they building factories and sharing their own knowhow.

Holy fuck leftists are retarded beyond belief. You still dont understand that its your understanding of imperialism that is completely retarded.

>Besides, those policies have simply proven self destructive because they aren't combined with any kind of coherent state management of the economy.

Keynesianism was successsfull in the West until the rate of profit fell, so it was abandoned. It has nothing to do with "coherent state management". That criticism only applies to third world ruling classes that used Keynesian policies as an excuse to use the government as a piggy bank, and suppress "free-market" capitalist social relations that would harm their petty bourgeois base and the monopolist capitalist oligarchy.

>>2825242
Imperialism and its tools like the IMF don't benefit developing countries and only do so if they are sovereign which leads to Western imperialist being brutal towards them. China got lucky because the Soviet Union was seen as the existential threat. Also the prediction on China doesn't seem to be what the party has planned according to their five year plans but it will be seen where it goes in the future.
>Poland for example, went from poorer than Brazil to near first-world
<Pooland
<near first-world
kek

>>2825295
it is though? poland is industrialized and has pretty much everything a "1st world" economy has, no matter your opinion of the poles

>>2825242
Capitalism was good for development and imperialism as its latest stage is even better. Marx knew this
>The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature's forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalization of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground—what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labor?
Retard manichean pseuds just live in a fantasy where they think socialism is when non western nation states with a class system and a market and stocks and a massive accumulation of commodity and private property with a bourgeoisie on top develop to similar levels to the west which is totally not capitalism and imperialism

>>2825295
Poland's GDP per capita and median disposable income (adjusted for PPP) are both in the same area as the UK and heading to overtake it.

I'm also going to be contrarian and go to bat for the IMF: while their strict insistence on fiscal austerity is a bad thing, 90% of their advice is good advice. most developing world states use the wrong policies to achieve the wrong ends.
for example, using tariffs to prop up a shitty domestic car "manufacturer" that actually just assembles knock-down kits imported from abroad as a means of propping up employment at great cost, then capping the price of the resulting car sales so people can actually buy cars. this is a dogshit policy at every level: if you want to support incomes, just do that directly. if you want to support a national champion, do so with subsidies instead of tariffs. if you want a national champion, your policy should be to have it actually develop products instead of just assembling a shittier version of someone else's product at a higher price, if you want people to be able to afford cars then allow free trade in used cars from abroad… and so on. it is, in fact, a good thing for the IMF to come in and say "if you want us to bail you out of your mess, stop doing the retarded things that got you into it."

But, of course, it would be easier for them to stop doing retarded things if they weren't so strict on fiscal rectitude, if they'd tolerate a temporary increase in welfare spending to offset the abandonment of the current idiotic approach. This is a general failure mode of neoliberalism. "Cut spending so you can cut taxes" always wins out over "use higher spending to mitigate the short-term shocks of deregulation."

>>2825307
>I'm also going to be contrarian and go to bat for the IMF
libtard detected
>90% of their advice is good advice
Financial imperialist porky wants you to destroy all industry and gamble on the stock market and with real estate instead
>for example, using tariffs to prop up a shitty domestic car "manufacturer" that actually just assembles knock-down kits imported from abroad as a means of propping up employment at great cost, then capping the price of the resulting car sales so people can actually buy cars. this is a dogshit policy at every level
This is literally what China has done and they raped every other car manufacturer to death.

>>2825328
china builds their own cars and designs them from scratch

>>2825128
Certain socialist countries had internal passport systems, partly as remnants of the original land registration system of the despotic feudalism that preceded socialism. China still uses it, as it is commonly known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propiska_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou

It makes sense. Immigration is only good in essence from the POV of the capitalist. Capitalists are concerned with employing as much labour as possible to produce the maximum possible amount of exchange value. For the individual capitalist, this might be limited by the constraints of their enterprise (although every one of them dreams about scaling infinitely) but for capital as whole there are basically no limits. This is why capitalist economists and politicians talk about how immigration is an economic necessity, even though in practice it is contingent on the physical movement of people and the strict bureaucratic procedures faced by them.

A socialist government would be primarily concerned with creating use values instead of quantifiable exchange value. If the goal is to satisfy definite human needs, then it can be rationally assessed if a certain degree of immigration and a particular framework for controlling immigration is desirable or not. It usually isn't because it instantenously creates a shortage in basic necessities like housing without necessarily creating more value. This is why the only way to permanently move to China is if you have already arranged a job for yourself inside the country. An individual capitalist on the other hand has no obligation to provide housing for example, they don't care if immigration causes a housing shortage. In fact, if they are involved in real estate, and everyone is who has money, then it's actually beneficial for them to create a shortage.

And of course, increasing immigration is a very efficient method to push down wages and grow the reserve army of labour. Capitalist love increasing their profits without having to increase constant capital investment.

americans, whether white or black, whether native or immigrant, will never accomplish anything good in this world

>>2825360
trvthnvke

>>2824750
Does that mean that there won’t be any law against theft in communist society?

White version of the same discussion here >>2816472

>>2825075
In the case of Indian immigration to the USA, its worst because a lot of these Indian immigrants are essentially the upper castes who want to avoid caste-based affirmative action in India (referred to as “reservation system” there) and so go to other countries to seek opportunities. Thing is, a lot of them are either reactionaries or petit bourgeois social climbers and rootless cosmopolitans who have no qualms with becoming part of the elite in underhanded ways.

Worst of all, this also weakens Indian leftists since emigration acts as India’s safety valve to prevent any revolutionary energy from metastasising into a an actual revolution, as well as chud PM Modi’s useful tool to stave off the incoming unemployment crisis and Malthusian trap.

India probably has the worst of both worlds what with having a thriving white collar sector without industrialising, leading to extreme wealth inequality and an inefficient bureaucracy that comes with the perks of having a semi-decent infrastructure. Apparently India is facing both demographic stagnation and deindustrialisation, the latter thanks in no small part to the Iran war-led energy crisis.

With that said, India is only incredible insofar that it has the most conservative government of any post-colonial country as well as having an impossible situation, especially as it had faced multiple insurgencies in its “independent” history, with the ones in northeast India, Punjab, Kashmir and Tamil Nadu being some worth mentioning, the closest it has come to a dictatorship so far being during the emergencies under Indira Gandhi.

>>2825371
Another big issue affecting India is climate change, with, iirc, parts projecting to become inhabitable.

>>2825371
This is kind of true of many places. India also has a strong local socialist presence (beyond just insurgencies). It has a multi-faceted problem of caste division, sex division, racism, lgbt/gender discrimination, and so on on top of the emigration issue.
>Malthusian trap
myth

>>2825368
Despite the homogenisation of “white America”, you can see the same FBA-tether dynamic among white Americans. The Hispanic-Non tension comes to mind, as most Latinos are ambiguously white mestizos to straight up being white-passing castizos and criollos like Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio. And a great deal of Latinos are upper-to-middle class white diasporoids (a.k.a., gusanos) like the American Cuban/Venezuelan community that mainly serve as nodes for the American empire to subvert the Bolivarian and communist governments of Venezuela and Cuba respectively, and use their proximity to whiteness/wealth to conflate their transnational interests with that of the average white American who gets screwed by the US imperialistic government and has nothing to gain from by an invasion of Cuba or Venezuela for regime change purposes.

Same goes with the Ukrainian, Polish, Baltic and Afrikaner tethers in America that use their whiteness to get their way in America and try to propagandise white Americans into supporting interventionists wars for Ukraine and against the post-apartheid South African government.

Same goes for British, Australian, Israeli and Canadian and European tethers who try to disguise themselves as Americans like the Aliens in “They See” to push an anti-communist reactionary agenda aimed at disenfranchising non-white Americans whilst excluding the white American working class in favour of the more rootless upper class “heritage Americans”. Elon Musk, Carl Benjamin/Sargon of Akkad, Jack Lang, Rupert Murdoch, Keith Woods, Saad Gad, Ben Shapiro, Denis Prager, Kate Watson, Janice Fiamengo, Ezra Pound, Martinez Clips, etc… are prime examples of this, pushing “western civilization” slop to propagandise white American lumpen to support a trans Atlantic militaristic fascist empire dominated by the same rentier financial oligarchs that currently rules over America and the UK, of which Musk is part of.

I forgot to mention Chinese, Korean, Iranian, Arab Christian, Vietnamese, Hmong, Laotian and Afghan diasporoids, but you get the point: Irrespective of their places of origins, all of them have no regard for the white American working class and deems it as unworthy of consideration and just useful as meatbag for wars of empires said diasporoids hope to profit off without doing any of the boots on the ground shooting themselves, and all of them are reactionary anti-communists who seek to use American wealth for their own gains at the expense of foundational Americans, and all of them act the same as black tethers in terms of scumminess, duplicitousness and narcissism.

Ofc this doesn’t mean that only white working class Americans are being hurt by this equation, as the same white tethers that currently collaborate with Trump also do their darnest to push chuddism in Europe in the form of more neoliberalism and anti-communism via demagoguery, which the western right-wing has fine-tuned to a high degree. Much worse can be said wrt Iranian Pahlavist diasporoids who solely exist to manufacture consent for MAGA’s war against Iran that is actually killing Iranians in Iran, a war that has led to an energy crisis that is driving down the living standards of Americans and other westerners, as well as other people across the planet.

>>2824730
>we uyghas on the site were the first ones here
>y'all uyghas wait in line for the extraction of your tears
>it might be a little bit queer but let me abate your fear
>solidarity? nary a reason to pursue that line of jeopardy
>you ain't black or the right kind of black so relax as I disseminate these facts on top of a backing track
>you're hacks, fake, just lookin' to appropriate and take the culture you didn't originate
>just like the white vulture you're bumping the beats but we don't know ya
black schism leads to more kids in prison, furnishing the industry with fresh slave meat. is this what you envision?

>>2825383
Rap is so fucking cringe

>>2825357
China just got rid of the Hukuo systen

>>2825377
AI could never hope to generate such perfect fascist nonsense.

>>2825242
>meanwhile it was "imperialism" that is enabling the industrialization of the third world for the past 70 years, including China
It absolutely was not. On the contrary imperialism in most cases works to undermine the development of industry in most of the third world to prevent the emergence of competitive industry. This is the whole point of tools like the IMF, which only allow access to the basic level of funds needed to keep a government running in exchange for deregulation, privatization, etc. The effect of this is to keep target countries locked into lower economic tiers (e.g. primary industries and low tech manufacturing like I said) since breaking out of that requires policies that are forbidden by IMF loans and restructuring.
>The abandonment of developmentalism (Keynesianism) is happening tho
Not in China. If anything state control of industry has tightened in the last few years with measures like the introduction of party committees into all large industries, more direct intervention in financial markets (e.g. controlled demolition of real estate bubbles). China's economy looks nothing like most of the third world precisely because of the extent of state involvement.
>Neither Brazil or India are "settling"' into near periphery.
Yes they are. Their GDP may be growing but a country's position in the world system isn't about GDP, its a qualitative measure of the kind of output they produce. Brazil and India produce raw materials and low tech manufactured goods. That's the position that the West has deliberately aimed to prevent them from escaping. Meanwhile China has developed a high tech manufacturing industry that is rapidly supplanted even the West.
>Poland for example, went from poorer than Brazil to near first-world economically
Poland was built up as a buffer state against Russia in the same way Japan or South Korea were. It was allowed to develop because doing so was geopolitically useful.
>Imperialism is "le export of capital" but when Western countries want to implement capital controls, China cries about it.
Oh I get it, you don't actually understand the Marxist theory of imperialism. Imperialism and capital export aren't equivalent, rather exporting more capital than commodities is simply a sign that an economy has reached the imperialist stage of development. Imperialism is the establishment of parasitic economic relations and geopolitical dominance of one country over another. Under capitalism this typically works through an international division of labour between higher and lower tier industries. The classic example was India exporting cotton and importing British textiles it was used to make, preventing the emergence of competing local industry, fostering dependence, and ensuring a net outflow of wealth to the imperial core.

>>2825439
>"anti-imperialism" is when I absurdly say US racism and anti-communism is foreign to the US white working classes, who must be mislead to support a "trans Atlantic militaristic fascist empire"
Can't make this shit up.

>>2825465
>absurdly say US racism and anti-communism is foreign to the US white working classes
I don't think that's what he was saying. Just that non-American white tethers act as pushers of US imperialism in relation to their countries of origin, to the detriment of the American working class.

Sorry but this isn't new this was a thing back in the 2010s with the "American Descendants of Slavery".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Descendants_of_Slavery

>>2825534
This. It’s just a fact that immigration is one of empire’s arsenal. In fact, there have been many maoist writings discussing how the people from periphery countries are imported into core countries to be turned into a comprador class on utilised in imperial wars.

We also the Soviet epithet “rootless cosmopolitan” among the Israeli, Australian, Canadian, British and European chuds that make up the chudintern’s intelligentsia, where their messaging about Christianity, western civilisation, white race, etc… all amount to shallow sloganeering in order to push imperialism onto the American working class with the help of homegrown American chuds like Andy Ogles to push for American imperialism at the expense of the American working class.

This isn’t an indictment of immigrants as a people nor an externalisation of American bigotry onto foreign actors, but the institutionalisation of gusanos in the American government and the massive support the Trump administration gives to rabidly racist and Zionist Iranian Pahlavist diasporoids is downstream from the tether phenomenon.

I’m not sure why I’m considered a fascist for saying that immigration is weaponised by imperialistic capitalists against both the domestic working class and that of the global south via both the import of surplus labor and imperialist wars that culminate with the diaspora taking over and acting as their countries’ comprador class at international capital’s service.

Is it because of my framing, tone or something else? I don’t get it tbh.

>>2825567
>Is it because of my framing, tone or something else?
I think MaoAnon misinterpreted your post as arguing that imperialism was entirely the product of these outside influences and had no organic presence in American society itself.

>>2825405
china doesn't need stringent hukou requirements anymore because there are massive efforts being made in rural revitalization and every region of china has become mostly urbanized, but not a long time ago it was a serious system where for example homeless migrant workers were rounded up en masse and deported back to their home villages

this doesn't mean that there aren't massive difference between countries which would probably lead to an open immigration policy if china wasn't socialist but still had massively rising wages and high economic complexity and industrial output

>>2824734
people still giving replies despite the only reasonable solution being given right at the start

uyghas need to learn pan africanism.
Black petit bourgeoise Americans are destroying any revolutionary potential their proletariat brothas