Let's talk about "tethers". For grass-touchers, "tether" is a term recently developed by the African American community to refer to Black immigrants (first or second or third gen) who are not "Foundational Black Americans" or FBA.
Now FBA are basically Black people who have been in the US for centuries, they suffered slavery, oppression and contributed to building up the economy.
FBA want to "delineate" themselves from the growing African Immigrant community in the US (Nigerians, Somalians, Ghanians, South Africans etc) and put emphasis on their unique shared culture, heritage, history etc.
On the face of it, its just some harmless IDpol. But there is a darker underlying conflict between these groups that caused the development of this term in the first place :
First let's look at the POV of tethers. Some tethers believe that FBA culture has issues which need to be corrected, namely family breakups, crime, domestic and gang violence, lack of achievement. Their rhetoric on this topic is very similar to black conservatives. Some famous tethers are Candance Owens, Emmanuel Acho , Winsome Sears, Fresh and Fit, Colion Noir etc.
The FBA POV is that tethers criticism of FBA is unfair. They believe tethers are Uncle Toms (some FBA use the even more acerbic term "coon") who aim to use white supremacy to gain a leg up in the racial hierarchy of the US. FBA also believe that their culture and heritage is unique, and tethers are parasitically taking advantage of FBA cultural aura while simultaneously downplaying FBA's problems and struggles.
Now from the communist perspective, it's easy to call all this FBI cointelpro (and maybe the FBI does have a hand in this) but that wont make this conflict go away. The FBA-tether conflict has the potential to weaken black solidarity.
It's also part of a trend where minorities are increasingly becoming more diverse politically.
What position should communists take on the FBA-tether situation? Reject it as meaningless IDpol? Call it out as FBI cointelpro? Or pick a side?
>>2824730This is the glowiest glow to ever have glowed.
OP if I encountered you on the street and you said this shit I would have a primal urge to beat you to death.
All americans need to be put into a woodchipper
>Reject it as meaningless IDpol? Call it out as FBI cointelpro?
This because that's what it is. None of this is new, Malcolm X complained about the exact same "tether" mentality among the small Black petty bourgeoisie and intelligentsia of his day. It's just a product of class differences, and should be articulated as such by communists rather than making it an issue of nationality.
If your not native american you have no business on turtle island.
>>2824748Communists arent supposed to belive in land ownership or inheritance
>>2824732Hey don't shoot the messenger
>>2824730This uygha not around since the 1600s
>Liberal idpol bullshit among members of the imperial core
Tell me a single reason a communist should care?
I've encountered a ton of anti-Somali hatred from my Black coworkers at multiple jobs. They expect me to come in, but I can't because of white guilt
>>2824800Why are they anti-somalis? Did they or one of their relative step a foot near the border or what ?
>>2824743Not really. He left the NOI shortly after learning about their weird esoteric beliefs.
>>2824730>recently developed you mean you recently found out about it lol
>>2824812this simply isn't true, and not just this, but he also looked the other way when his social parasite commanders were raping little girls who were part of their protestant islamism.
It's not a new develpement it's about as old as the African-American identity
>>2824806We have a lot of Somalis here.
I'll just repeat the rationale I've heard, it's not my opinion.
They claim that Somalis fudge birth certificates and lie to get in the country by pretending to be family or pretending to be adults.
Multiple accusations of sexism from the Somali men.
The Public Housing Authority seems to be largely staffed by Somalis who favor their own, which is easy to tell, since they all have the same 5 or 6 names.
FGM is highest in Somalia and they were the largest anti-vaxx demographic here.
In general clannish behavior.
They are my city's token Jews.There is some organized (white collar) crime, but conservative democrats need the Somali vote here so prosecution is light. I live across from an obviously fake restaurant which is a money laundering front/ gambling den, but I'm not a tattletale.
>>2824730Invented by black capitalists to get more money from black people
>>2824826Oh no, when it's the HB1 indians it's XD crakkas be mad, but when it's african it's a "valid class issue" I see
>>2824842immigration has always been a class issue, they replaced the lower class blue collar white worker with mexicans, they are now replacing the middle class white worker with indians, all to gain a source of cheaper labour and lower wages
the problem for fba's is that africans from africa come from third world countries and have a culture of "i dont want to go back there so im going to study hard and not rock the boat"
>>2824826Good. Black burgers are burgers at their core and therefore retarded. The world needs to understand that burger culture does not represent all black people.
Endgame sakaism, which is hitlerism.
>>2824842Both are valid class issues
>>2824831could you link it?
>>2824870I’ve talked about this before but around two years ago I did aid work in a rural village in Sindh. What really stood out to me was how much family sizes had changed in just one generation. About 20 years ago having 5, 7, or even 11 kids was normal there but now most households there only had 2 or 3. And it wasn’t because of education, government birth-control campaigns or improving living conditions(conditions had actually gotten worse.) The biggest change seemed to be TV, and especially smartphones. People spend way more time just lying around watching shorts, or old bollywood movies.
>>2824844>have a culture of "i dont want to go back there so im going to study hard and not rock the boat"Didn't expect to read that here, I will add the "my family lives back there and I give them all the money I can scrounge up to live in luxury during my vacation/retirement (they expect their kids to do the same obviously)
>>2824730Genuinely hate that you people have finally heard about this shit. Gonna be real fun witnessing all the pasty, terminally-online motherfuckers chomping at the bit to try out the new slur they just learned. Can't wait.
>What position should communists take on the FBA-tether situation?FBA, ADOS, etc. are a product of the assimilation and destruction of Black community since the 60s, alongside the collapse of Pan-Africanist and Revolutionary Communist politics more generally from the 70s through 90s. It is essentially reactionary and comprador in nature. Let's break it down:
It is becoming increasingly clear to even liberal Black folks in the US that integration has failed to produce the results sought by the Civil Rights movement. Rather than granting Black communities a reprieve, the reforms of the 60s in practice acted to further destroy their autonomy and national infrastructure. Integration of schools for example meant the closure of Black schools and the firing of Black educational staff, not integration with their white counterparts. For students it meant being shuffled from environments which (while under-equipped) understood them — and acted in their national interests to the best of staff's ability — into extremely hostile learning environments which disproportionately targeted them for punishment and expulsion. Even today this is the case. My school district, for example, is hailed as being one of the most integrated in the US, with the majority of students not being white and student bodies being extremely mixed. Yet, over 90% of teachers here are white, and Black teachers rarely make it past 5 years (less than 3% of Black men made it that far). Black students are vastly more likely to be written up and expelled.
A reform presented to us as enabling Black youth to access the same opportunities instead acts as a means of ejecting youth from education altogether and closed schools off from being a vector for Black revolutionary consciousness. All of the reforms from this era followed this pattern, wrecking the ability of Black workers, their petty-bourgeoisie, and youth to act independently for their interests. Pumping these communities full of devastatingly addictive drugs (and subsequently declaring war on them) was the final nail in the coffin. This wrecking of Black communities and the sections of the Black nation who formed the core of its national liberation struggle likewise led to the decline of their revolutionary ideologies: Revolutionary Communism, New Afrikan Nationalism, and Pan-Africanism.
So who in the Black nation can get ahead in the context of this neo-colonial chaos? Those among the pre-existing Black bourgeois, and some Black workers who entered the bourgeois classes, who most tightly bound themselves to the white oppressor nation and US imperialism. Compradors. Black folks adopted by white capital and presented as self-made millionaires and billionaires, as a new generation of grand entrepreneurs and small-business owners — success stories of post-integration Amerikkka. This empowered comprador bourgeoisie and their mirror-image — the Black bureaucratic bourgeoisie ("nonprofit" owners and those employed in a variety of positions within the state) quickly outgrew the need to cloak themselves in the ideas and aesthetics of Black revolution for legitimacy, and by the 90s emerged new perspectives and ideologies
aligned with US imperialism and necessarily hostile towards those nations of people whose exploitation reproduces modern capitalism. Within Black communities today you can very easily perceive the differences between these generations of Black bourgeois: the last few small storefronts and artisans hanging on from the 60s-80s bear only the most tenuous aesthetic and rhetorical resemblance to the shiny new "Black owned" (see: funded with white investment) gentrified coffee houses and shops.
But this is neither a unique or purely international crisis, it is a product of a general international collapse in revolutionary politics not seen since the 1890s. Walter Rodney witnessed and criticized this trend within Africa itself just before the Sixth (and most radical) Pan-African Congress:
>"Pan-Africanism has been so flouted by the present African regimes that the concept of 'Africa' is dead for all practical purposes such as travel and employment. The 'Africanisation' that was aimed against the European colonial administrator soon gave way to restrictive employment and immigration practices by Ivory Coast, Ghana (under Busia), Zaire, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, and others - aimed against Dahomeans, Nigerians, Burundi nationals, Malawians, Kenyans and all Africans who were guilty of believing that Africa was for the Africans. Of course, it was said that unemployment among citizens of any given country forced the government to take extreme steps. This is a pitiable excuse, which tries to hide the fact that unemployment is the responsibility of the neo-colonial regimes, which can no nothing better than preside over dependent economies with little growth and no development. In many respects, one African has been further shut off from another during the present neo-colonial phase than was the case during raw colonialism. Even within the context of the existing African nation states, the African ruling class has seldom sought to build anything other than tribal power bases, which means that they seek division and not unity at all levels of political activity, be it national, continental, or international."
>"… the petty bourgeoisie prefers the technique of paying lip-service to progressive ideas, seeking the defeat of these ideas through a process of trivialization and vulgarization. Both Socialism and Pan-Africanism are of the utmost importance with respect to this technique. In once sense, the unwillingness of the petty bourgeoisie to manifest overt hostility to Socialism and Pan-Africanism is a testimony to the development of mass consciousness and to the level of confrontation between progressive and reactionary forces on the world stage. But it is also very insidious in so far as pseudo-revolutionary positions tend to pre-empt genuinely revolutionary positions. For instance, the existing African regimes have helped create the illusion that the OAU represents the concretization of Pan-African unity. The OAU is the principal instrument which legitimizes the forty-odd mini-states visited upon us by colonialism."
>"… A final illustration to this effect is the way in which the very vanguard of the Pan-Africanist movement (as it emerged from the Fifth Congress) lost its direction and wallowed in bourgeois theory and practice… Nkrumah was engaging in ideological mystification under new facades such as 'consciencism', while doing little to break the control of the international bourgeoisie or the Ghanaian petty bourgeoisie over the state. He had already eliminated the genuine working class leadership from the CPP during the first years of power, and it was only after his overthrow by a reactionary petty bourgeois coup d'etat that Nkrumah became convinced that there was a class struggle in Africa and that the national and Pan-African movements required leadership loyal to its mass base of workers and peasants.
>Obfuscation of the notion of class in post-independence Africa has made Pan-Africanism a toothless slogan as far as imperialism is concerned, and it has actually been adopted by African chauvinists and reactionaries, marking a distinct departure from the earlier years of this century when the proponents of Pan-Africanism stood on the left flank of their respective national movements on both sides of the Atlantic. The recapture of the revolutionary initiative should clearly be one of the foremost tasks of the Sixth Pan-African Congress."The majority of the International Communist and Pan-Africanist movements have failed to adapt to the neo-colonial world, and many have adopted primitive theories like Kautskyism (multipolarism, Marcyism) as "innovations" or denied that neo-colonial conditions exist at all. In the wake of such a crisis in theory and practice, alongside the direct destruction of Black organizations, infrastructure, and leadership, is it any surprise that we now see reactionary pro-imperialist sentiments surge in mass adoption the way we have?
But regardless of how many of the Black New Afrikan masses adopt these ideologies, the Revolutionary Communist stance remains the same: these are essentially reactionary, pro-imperialist bourgeois ideologies that cannot bring national liberation or equality for Black people of
any nation within the US. They are inherently hostile to Revolutionary Communism and Socialism, and to the interests of the workers of the world. FBA, ADOS, and the like obfuscate class and national contradictions and elevate perceived threats from African immigrants to be the principal issue of the day, a stance that not only serves white US liberalism, it serves white settler-colonial fascism. It divorces New Afrikans from the global, nationally oppressed, working class majority and reduces them to a minority within a minority whose only legitimate aspiration is to be politically white.
>>2824822While they are linked in some ways to past Black bourgeois ideologies these are very different from, say, the ideas of Booker T. Washington who still perceived a contradiction between white imperialism and Black interests. These are ideologies that could only emerge from a post-"integration" (assimilation) US.
>>2824818nah he left in 1963
>>2824844>immigration has always been a class issue, they replaced the lower class blue collar white worker with mexicans, they are now replacing the middle class white worker with indians, all to gain a source of cheaper labour and lower wagesnow apply that logic between US states. should poor people from Appalachia be stopped from moving to New York or California? Why are commodities more free to move than people? Why are people locked down in war zones and prevented from leaving? And if they aren't locked down, why are they leaving their homes? Why do people migrate from where the wages are low, the climate is changing fast, the sanctions are brutal, and the bombs are always falling to the places relatively safe? And what can be done to stop it other than arming reactionaries to brutalize the people fleeing awful conditions?
>First let's look at the POV of tethers
It's insane that you've used ChatGPT to write your post
>>2824899not OP but I don't see how that text snippet is indicative of chatGPT
>>2824888As a somewhat cynical non-Western socialist, the way I see it is that when you have different peoples with established identities, there are only two ways to deal with, either you create government-recognized ethnic republics with their own leadership and institutions or you pursue forced assimilation by changing people’s religion, language, and historical identity. otherwise you get pointless conflict.
>>2824910I dont know how you can be communists and even entertain the first option the endgoal of communism is to end these social relations.
Maintaining these divides under communism accomplishes nothing and benefits no one.
>>2824917I’m a third-world socialist, our movements were gutted by US backed psychos before we could even get off the ground and our nations degenerated into hybrid regimes. Being cynical and pragmatic is basically baked into us
>>2824730>>2824730As an outsider to America what even is FBA culture other than thugging and ebonics?
>>2824918Well yeah most-third worlders and non-white socialists are really just ethnonationalists and only care about communism insofar as they can try to use it to advance the position of themselves and their ethnicgroup.
>>2824903It's a common format method with present AI to begin listing arguments with ordinal numbers
This cunt has basically asked CharGPT to write the OP, and it wouldn't surprise me if people in the thread are using it as well
>>2824922Not that i dont understand how or why they are like this but it still doesnt justify it. And these contradictions will have to be resolved at some point.
>>2824910>either you create government-recognized ethnic republics with their own leadership and institutionsAre you referring to the Soviet Republics and Autonomous Republics? If so, I generally agree, though this can only be progressive as part of Socialist construction. That being said, multinational
socialist states are absolutely possible, and in some contexts are a necessity. The idea that it is impossible for multiple cultures and nations to coexist within a single society is absurd to the point of being childish. In Haiti, we did not experience conflict when white Poles sought refuge with us against Napoleon, or when tens of thousands of Palestinians fled here after the Nakba. Revisionism on the national question and allowing national chauvinism is a major contributing factor to the decline and collapse of multiple Socialist states, particularly the USSR and Yugoslavia. Such revisionism and chauvinism, or existing ethnic conflicts in neo-colonialism, is not itself proof that multinational states are impossible.
>or you pursue forced assimilation by changing people’s religion, language, and historical identity.This is just fascism.
>>2824920This is just racism.
>>2824923This is a massive vulgarization of Black national culture.
>>2824893the funny thing is that the world used to be like this, with strong-ish internal movement restrictions but relatively open international borders. the UK, for example, didn't have
any immigration controls until 1905!
but now that they're part of the status quo the idea of abolishing them makes people uneasy. they'd rather contort themselves to come up with explanations for why a world where one man makes $50,000 and another makes $0 and dies is better than a world where both make $25,000. (this is a simplification and concedes a strawman version of the impact of immigration on wages, but it's worth engaging with the strawman anyway because opposing immigration in this scenario is still a ridiculous position to take.)
"when i said workers of the world unite, what i really meant was unite within your country and stay away from mine!!"
>>2824938>>2824888It’s good to have the only sober voice on this board back
>>2824922A lot more complicated then that, but not untrue
>>2824961>>2824893But at least in the US context, the overwhelming majority of African (and non-Hispanic) arrivals aren’t poor refugees, they’re overweeningly middle/upper-middle-class professionals. And as someone who actually lives in the third world, I understand why people pursue opportunities abroad not to improve their economic conditions, but also to escape the instability and corruption back home.
At the same time, this genuinely harms our countries and the lives of the people. By your logic instead of trying to improve our own nations, all 200 million of us should just leave. Sorry but not all of us are rootless cretins with no attachment to where we come from, some of us actually want to live in our countries and try to make them better.
>>2825075It does not follow that all of you should leave. Those who want to leave should leave, those who want to move there should move there, and those who want to stay should stay. There is no special meaning to the abstraction of the nation: why should people be allowed to leave their home towns instead of staying and improving them? hell, why should people be allowed to move from one
part of their home town to another instead of staying and improving it?
Moreover, and this will be a more contentious economic argument: the number one thing most citizens of a poor country can do to improve their country is to leave temporarily, earn money abroad, and send that money back to their home country. Most poor countries have a massive surplus of labour and a massive deficit of capital. "Export labour and have it send capital to you" elegantly resolves that problem.
>>2825084>Most poor countries have a massive surplus of labour and a massive deficit of capitalB-but rich countries exporting capital is imperialist or something o algo
>>2825100Exporting capital is a basic feature of imperialism, yes.
>>2825100They lack capital because they've never been allowed to accumulate a surplus, not because they've been exporting it. Imperialist countries export capital because their own markets are already saturated with it and the room for growth is limited. Countries only begin to export capital when they have too much of it, not too little.
>>2825118it worked for China
>>2825119China was a special case. They were allied with the US for the last 20 years of the Cold War and a lot of people assumed that their rapid liberalization would lead inevitably to their absorption into the Western orbit. People thought it would be like the collapse of the USSR but slower and less messy. By the time it was clear that this wasn't happening it was already too late.
>>2824922More like most self-proclaimed leftists and socialist are actually just nationalists who're currently backing the losing side of global geopolitics.
>>2825084>Those who want to leave should leave, those who want to move there should move there, and those who want to stay should stay.Yeah states decide that, not you. If they really don't want people to leave or enter, they just have to shoot people who try to cross the border without authorization. This method worked very well historically. Not really desirable, but it shows that immigration isn't a force of nature like gravity. It's also absurd to argue for individual freedom instead of collective responsibility as a
socialist or something.
>Most poor countries have a massive surplus of labour and a massive deficit of capital.Comparative advantage theory? Really? What's next, is wage labour is an equal and balanced relationship between two consenting parties?
I don't really see how can you be a socialist and be for immigration. A reduction in immigration would both lend itself very well to socialist/anti-imperialist developmentalist projects in the "third world" and to movements in the West to seeking to reestablish a working class through state investment. This then could lead to the resurgence of worker's parties, if this task isn't undertaken by the working class in the first place.
You could argue that a reduction in immigration will only come as a consequence of a broader economic policy, but even then it would be insane to not latch onto the losers of globalization as a support base in the West, especially today's (social) media-driven politics landscape which is less about policy and more about pointing fingers and making noise.
This whole FBA/tether thing proves that the Democratic strategy of racializing poverty to extinguish revolutionary movements has been defeated and that sakaism is a dead end for American communists.
>>2825119And it only costed sacrificing 1/6th of the world population into the global capital machinery, revitalizing capitalism during its biggest time of crisis and betraying the socialist bloc + the third world.
But I guess it's ok in the end because the Chinese now have cool buildings and Labubus I guess.
>>2825123>This method worked very well historically. No it didn't, you shit eating liar. One of the posts you replied to in order to initiate this conversation explicitly identified the 20th century origin of border controls in Britain (the world superpower at the time!)
I might come back to the rest of your fanfiction tier drivel, but not until you engage with the question about why cities (or, indeed, regional governments) should not also have border controls based on the same principle.
>>2825084That is all well and good until imperialist powers bribe the workers to go to them and all the investment that you made on human capital gets sent there. There is a reason the USSR and much of the Warsaw Pact countries regulated internal migration
>>2825115Just because africans arent retarded like african-americans diesnt make them petit-bourgouisie.
Or do you just fetish lumpen and poverty?
>>2825138American (and Western more generally) immigration laws are such that you pretty much can't come here legally unless you're petty bourgeois or a member of the intelligentsia, or maybe a refugee or something. The petty bourgeoisie and PMCs are hugely overrepresented among immigrants from the third world. That Anon is right to identify a class dynamic at play here.
>>2825169So are you telling people to not get an education and settle for a poor paying job?
>>2825170No? How did you take that meaning? I'm just identifying the material interests that are causing the dispute between "tethers" and "FBAs". It's pretty clearly a case of the former having class interests aligned with the status quo and the latter misdirecting their class resentment into xenophobia.
>>2825121>>2825119It worked and continues to work for every country on the planet. Export of Western capital and knowhow and inclusion into Western market is the main reason for industrialization everywhere on Earth to this very day. Even now, China starts crying and making threats when Western countries start implementing the exact same protectionist policies that China has.
Leftist economic theory of "Imperialism" after colonialism is totally botched and retarded.
>>2825193>It worked and continues to work for every country on the planetNo it didn't. China is not geopolitically subservient to the West. It was assumed that integration into the world markets would lead not only to this, but a transition to a liberal political system, the abandonment of developmentalism, and China settling into a Brazil or India near-periphery type role in the world economy (i.e. raw materials and low-mid tier manufacturing without substantial high tech or tertiary sectors). However none of those things came to fruition.
>Even now, China starts crying and making threats when Western countries start implementing the exact same protectionist policies that China has.Yeah and? They want to do business. That doesn't mean the West has succeeded in subjugating them. Besides, those policies have simply proven self destructive because they aren't combined with any kind of coherent state management of the economy.
>>2825215>No it didn't. China is not geopolitically subservient to the West. I mean it worked to develop the countries, which is what the discussion is about. Leftists say "imperialism bad" meanwhile it was "imperialism" that is enabling the industrialization of the third world for the past 70 years, including China. China is also not the only country on the planet that is industrializing.
>It was assumed that integration into the world markets would lead not only to this, but a transition to a liberal political system, the abandonment of developmentalismThe abandonment of developmentalism (Keynesianism) is happening tho, it happens because the rate of profit falls. The exact same reason why Keynesian policies were drawn down in the West. The CPC is making statements about how its going to increase consumption, decrease manufacturing investment, allow currency to appreciate, and is decreasing its GDP forecasts every year.
Also the West does give a shit about liberalism. The West has no problem having genocidal dictatorships like Saudi Arabia or Israel as its allies.
>China settling into a Brazil or India near-periphery type role in the world economy Neither Brazil or India are "settling"' into near periphery. India has a growing economy. Both are also increasingly geopolitically independent, against BOTH the West AND China. You know, that's what multipolarism is actually about. Brazil's stagnation has nothing to do with le evil West, it has to do with an incompetent bourgeoisie, corruption and low-quality human capital. Poland for example, went from poorer than Brazil to near first-world economically thanks to high-quality human capital, lower corruption and competent economic management.
There are many many factors that determine a country economic growth beyond "le subservient to West" (the same West that enables its industrialization in the first place). This is what I mean when I talk about the RETARDED Leftist understand of "imperialism". Its vague bullshit thats used to completely ignore any understanding of the actual economic, cultural and political situation of a country.
>Yeah and? They want to do businessIt means that leftist understanding of imperialism is retarded. Imperialism is "le export of capital" but when Western countries want to implement capital controls, China cries about it. Meaning China WANTS "imperialism" while engaging in "imperialism" itself in third world countries, and increasingly even in the West where they building factories and sharing their own knowhow.
Holy fuck leftists are retarded beyond belief. You still dont understand that its your understanding of imperialism that is completely retarded.
>Besides, those policies have simply proven self destructive because they aren't combined with any kind of coherent state management of the economy.Keynesianism was successsfull in the West until the rate of profit fell, so it was abandoned. It has nothing to do with "coherent state management". That criticism only applies to third world ruling classes that used Keynesian policies as an excuse to use the government as a piggy bank, and suppress "free-market" capitalist social relations that would harm their petty bourgeois base and the monopolist capitalist oligarchy.
>>2825242Imperialism and its tools like the IMF don't benefit developing countries and only do so if they are sovereign which leads to Western imperialist being brutal towards them. China got lucky because the Soviet Union was seen as the existential threat. Also the prediction on China doesn't seem to be what the party has planned according to their five year plans but it will be seen where it goes in the future.
>Poland for example, went from poorer than Brazil to near first-world <Pooland<near first-worldkek
>>2825295it is though? poland is industrialized and has pretty much everything a "1st world" economy has, no matter your opinion of the poles
>>2825242Capitalism was good for development and imperialism as its latest stage is even better. Marx knew this
>The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature's forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalization of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground—what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labor? Retard manichean pseuds just live in a fantasy where they think socialism is when non western nation states with a class system and a market and stocks and a massive accumulation of commodity and private property with a bourgeoisie on top develop to similar levels to the west which is totally not capitalism and imperialism
>>2825295Poland's GDP per capita and median disposable income (adjusted for PPP) are both in the same area as the UK and heading to overtake it.
I'm also going to be contrarian and go to bat for the IMF: while their strict insistence on fiscal austerity is a bad thing, 90% of their advice is good advice. most developing world states use the wrong policies to achieve the wrong ends.
for example, using tariffs to prop up a shitty domestic car "manufacturer" that actually just assembles knock-down kits imported from abroad as a means of propping up employment at great cost, then capping the price of the resulting car sales so people can actually buy cars. this is a dogshit policy at every level: if you want to support incomes, just do that directly. if you want to support a national champion, do so with subsidies instead of tariffs. if you want a national champion, your policy should be to have it actually develop products instead of just assembling a shittier version of someone else's product at a higher price, if you want people to be able to afford cars then allow free trade in used cars from abroad… and so on. it is, in fact, a good thing for the IMF to come in and say "if you want us to bail you out of your mess, stop doing the retarded things that got you into it."
But, of course, it would be easier for them to stop doing retarded things if they weren't so strict on fiscal rectitude, if they'd tolerate a temporary increase in welfare spending to offset the abandonment of the current idiotic approach. This is a general failure mode of neoliberalism. "Cut spending so you can cut taxes" always wins out over "use higher spending to mitigate the short-term shocks of deregulation."
>>2825307>I'm also going to be contrarian and go to bat for the IMFlibtard detected
>90% of their advice is good adviceFinancial imperialist porky wants you to destroy all industry and gamble on the stock market and with real estate instead
>for example, using tariffs to prop up a shitty domestic car "manufacturer" that actually just assembles knock-down kits imported from abroad as a means of propping up employment at great cost, then capping the price of the resulting car sales so people can actually buy cars. this is a dogshit policy at every levelThis is literally what China has done and they raped every other car manufacturer to death.
>>2825328china builds their own cars and designs them from scratch
>>2825128Certain socialist countries had internal passport systems, partly as remnants of the original land registration system of the despotic feudalism that preceded socialism. China still uses it, as it is commonly known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propiska_in_the_Soviet_Unionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HukouIt makes sense. Immigration is only good in essence from the POV of the capitalist. Capitalists are concerned with employing as much labour as possible to produce the maximum possible amount of exchange value. For the individual capitalist, this might be limited by the constraints of their enterprise (although every one of them dreams about
scaling infinitely) but for capital as whole there are basically no limits. This is why capitalist economists and politicians talk about how immigration is an
economic necessity, even though in practice it is contingent on the physical movement of people and the strict bureaucratic procedures faced by them.
A socialist government would be primarily concerned with creating use values instead of quantifiable exchange value. If the goal is to satisfy definite human needs, then it can be rationally assessed if a certain degree of immigration and a particular framework for controlling immigration is desirable or not. It usually isn't because it instantenously creates a shortage in basic necessities like housing without necessarily creating more value. This is why the only way to permanently move to China is if you have already arranged a job for yourself inside the country. An individual capitalist on the other hand has no obligation to provide housing for example, they don't care if immigration causes a housing shortage. In fact, if they are involved in real estate, and everyone is who has money, then it's actually beneficial for them to create a shortage.
And of course, increasing immigration is a very efficient method to push down wages and grow the reserve army of labour. Capitalist love increasing their profits without having to increase constant capital investment.
americans, whether white or black, whether native or immigrant, will never accomplish anything good in this world
>>2824750Does that mean that there won’t be any law against theft in communist society?
White version of the same discussion here
>>2816472>>2825075In the case of Indian immigration to the USA, its worst because a lot of these Indian immigrants are essentially the upper castes who want to avoid caste-based affirmative action in India (referred to as “reservation system” there) and so go to other countries to seek opportunities. Thing is, a lot of them are either reactionaries or petit bourgeois social climbers and rootless cosmopolitans who have no qualms with becoming part of the elite in underhanded ways.
Worst of all, this also weakens Indian leftists since emigration acts as India’s safety valve to prevent any revolutionary energy from metastasising into a an actual revolution, as well as chud PM Modi’s useful tool to stave off the incoming unemployment crisis and Malthusian trap.
India probably has the worst of both worlds what with having a thriving white collar sector without industrialising, leading to extreme wealth inequality and an inefficient bureaucracy that comes with the perks of having a semi-decent infrastructure. Apparently India is facing both demographic stagnation and deindustrialisation, the latter thanks in no small part to the Iran war-led energy crisis.
With that said, India is only incredible insofar that it has the most conservative government of any post-colonial country as well as having an impossible situation, especially as it had faced multiple insurgencies in its “independent” history, with the ones in northeast India, Punjab, Kashmir and Tamil Nadu being some worth mentioning, the closest it has come to a dictatorship so far being during the emergencies under Indira Gandhi.
>>2825371Another big issue affecting India is climate change, with, iirc, parts projecting to become inhabitable.
>>2825371This is kind of true of many places. India also has a strong local socialist presence (beyond just insurgencies). It has a multi-faceted problem of caste division, sex division, racism, lgbt/gender discrimination, and so on on top of the emigration issue.
>Malthusian trapmyth
>>2825368Despite the homogenisation of “white America”, you can see the same FBA-tether dynamic among white Americans. The Hispanic-Non tension comes to mind, as most Latinos are ambiguously white mestizos to straight up being white-passing castizos and criollos like Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio. And a great deal of Latinos are upper-to-middle class white diasporoids (a.k.a., gusanos) like the American Cuban/Venezuelan community that mainly serve as nodes for the American empire to subvert the Bolivarian and communist governments of Venezuela and Cuba respectively, and use their proximity to whiteness/wealth to conflate their transnational interests with that of the average white American who gets screwed by the US imperialistic government and has nothing to gain from by an invasion of Cuba or Venezuela for regime change purposes.
Same goes with the Ukrainian, Polish, Baltic and Afrikaner tethers in America that use their whiteness to get their way in America and try to propagandise white Americans into supporting interventionists wars for Ukraine and against the post-apartheid South African government.
Same goes for British, Australian, Israeli and Canadian and European tethers who try to disguise themselves as Americans like the Aliens in “They See” to push an anti-communist reactionary agenda aimed at disenfranchising non-white Americans whilst excluding the white American working class in favour of the more rootless upper class “heritage Americans”. Elon Musk, Carl Benjamin/Sargon of Akkad, Jack Lang, Rupert Murdoch, Keith Woods, Saad Gad, Ben Shapiro, Denis Prager, Kate Watson, Janice Fiamengo, Ezra Pound, Martinez Clips, etc… are prime examples of this, pushing “western civilization” slop to propagandise white American lumpen to support a trans Atlantic militaristic fascist empire dominated by the same rentier financial oligarchs that currently rules over America and the UK, of which Musk is part of.
I forgot to mention Chinese, Korean, Iranian, Arab Christian, Vietnamese, Hmong, Laotian and Afghan diasporoids, but you get the point: Irrespective of their places of origins, all of them have no regard for the white American working class and deems it as unworthy of consideration and just useful as meatbag for wars of empires said diasporoids hope to profit off without doing any of the boots on the ground shooting themselves, and all of them are reactionary anti-communists who seek to use American wealth for their own gains at the expense of foundational Americans, and all of them act the same as black tethers in terms of scumminess, duplicitousness and narcissism.
Ofc this doesn’t mean that only white working class Americans are being hurt by this equation, as the same white tethers that currently collaborate with Trump also do their darnest to push chuddism in Europe in the form of more neoliberalism and anti-communism via demagoguery, which the western right-wing has fine-tuned to a high degree. Much worse can be said wrt Iranian Pahlavist diasporoids who solely exist to manufacture consent for MAGA’s war against Iran that is actually killing Iranians in Iran, a war that has led to an energy crisis that is driving down the living standards of Americans and other westerners, as well as other people across the planet.
>>2824730>we uyghas on the site were the first ones here>y'all uyghas wait in line for the extraction of your tears>it might be a little bit queer but let me abate your fear>solidarity? nary a reason to pursue that line of jeopardy>you ain't black or the right kind of black so relax as I disseminate these facts on top of a backing track >you're hacks, fake, just lookin' to appropriate and take the culture you didn't originate>just like the white vulture you're bumping the beats but we don't know yablack schism leads to more kids in prison, furnishing the industry with fresh slave meat. is this what you envision?
>>2825383Rap is so fucking cringe
>>2825357China just got rid of the Hukuo systen
>>2825377AI could never hope to generate such perfect fascist nonsense.
>>2825242>meanwhile it was "imperialism" that is enabling the industrialization of the third world for the past 70 years, including ChinaIt absolutely was not. On the contrary imperialism in most cases works to undermine the development of industry in most of the third world to prevent the emergence of competitive industry. This is the whole point of tools like the IMF, which only allow access to the basic level of funds needed to keep a government running in exchange for deregulation, privatization, etc. The effect of this is to keep target countries locked into lower economic tiers (e.g. primary industries and low tech manufacturing like I said) since breaking out of that requires policies that are forbidden by IMF loans and restructuring.
>The abandonment of developmentalism (Keynesianism) is happening thoNot in China. If anything state control of industry has tightened in the last few years with measures like the introduction of party committees into all large industries, more direct intervention in financial markets (e.g. controlled demolition of real estate bubbles). China's economy looks nothing like most of the third world precisely because of the extent of state involvement.
>Neither Brazil or India are "settling"' into near periphery. Yes they are. Their GDP may be growing but a country's position in the world system isn't about GDP, its a qualitative measure of the kind of output they produce. Brazil and India produce raw materials and low tech manufactured goods. That's the position that the West has deliberately aimed to prevent them from escaping. Meanwhile China has developed a high tech manufacturing industry that is rapidly supplanted even the West.
>Poland for example, went from poorer than Brazil to near first-world economicallyPoland was built up as a buffer state against Russia in the same way Japan or South Korea were. It was allowed to develop because doing so was geopolitically useful.
>Imperialism is "le export of capital" but when Western countries want to implement capital controls, China cries about it. Oh I get it, you don't actually understand the Marxist theory of imperialism. Imperialism and capital export aren't equivalent, rather exporting more capital than commodities is simply a sign that an economy has reached the imperialist stage of development. Imperialism is the establishment of parasitic economic relations and geopolitical dominance of one country over another. Under capitalism this typically works through an international division of labour between higher and lower tier industries. The classic example was India exporting cotton and importing British textiles it was used to make, preventing the emergence of competing local industry, fostering dependence, and ensuring a net outflow of wealth to the imperial core.
>>2825465>absurdly say US racism and anti-communism is foreign to the US white working classesI don't think that's what he was saying. Just that non-American white tethers act as pushers of US imperialism in relation to their countries of origin, to the detriment of the American working class.
Sorry but this isn't new this was a thing back in the 2010s with the "American Descendants of Slavery".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Descendants_of_Slavery>>2825534This. It’s just a fact that immigration is one of empire’s arsenal. In fact, there have been many maoist writings discussing how the people from periphery countries are imported into core countries to be turned into a comprador class on utilised in imperial wars.
We also the Soviet epithet “rootless cosmopolitan” among the Israeli, Australian, Canadian, British and European chuds that make up the chudintern’s intelligentsia, where their messaging about Christianity, western civilisation, white race, etc… all amount to shallow sloganeering in order to push imperialism onto the American working class with the help of homegrown American chuds like Andy Ogles to push for American imperialism at the expense of the American working class.
This isn’t an indictment of immigrants as a people nor an externalisation of American bigotry onto foreign actors, but the institutionalisation of gusanos in the American government and the massive support the Trump administration gives to rabidly racist and Zionist Iranian Pahlavist diasporoids is downstream from the tether phenomenon.
I’m not sure why I’m considered a fascist for saying that immigration is weaponised by imperialistic capitalists against both the domestic working class and that of the global south via both the import of surplus labor and imperialist wars that culminate with the diaspora taking over and acting as their countries’ comprador class at international capital’s service.
Is it because of my framing, tone or something else? I don’t get it tbh.
>>2825567>Is it because of my framing, tone or something else? I think MaoAnon misinterpreted your post as arguing that imperialism was entirely the product of these outside influences and had no organic presence in American society itself.
>>>/twitter/
>>2825405china doesn't need stringent hukou requirements anymore because there are massive efforts being made in rural revitalization and every region of china has become mostly urbanized, but not a long time ago it was a serious system where for example homeless migrant workers were rounded up en masse and deported back to their home villages
this doesn't mean that there aren't massive difference between countries which would probably lead to an open immigration policy if china wasn't socialist but still had massively rising wages and high economic complexity and industrial output
>>2824734people still giving replies despite the only reasonable solution being given right at the start
uyghas need to learn pan africanism.
Black petit bourgeoise Americans are destroying any revolutionary potential their proletariat brothas
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