/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

'chives

>>2826376
You are hopeless fool or wilful revisionist. Fetterman is social democrat by yank standard. Cpusa supported fetterman. Cpusa called fetterman progressive. Cpusa call platner progressive. Your old tricks cannot work on anyone with half a brain. Bernolf Sander is all of those things too. You are wrong in totality. Bernolf sandler supported fetterman.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/democrat-fetterman-leads-pennsylvania-race-for-u-s-senate/
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/nationwide-7-million-rise-up-to-save-democracy/

When fence sitting walk backing dick riders say they love social democrat but hate platner, always know they are lying. This materially proven by this evidence.

>>2826388
fetterman is a DINO–democrat in name only. He's like Krystyn Sinema. He's not the social democrat of the dem party, that's either Ilhan Omar or Rashida Tlaib.

Midwestern milf tits

>>2826388
I encourage everyone who gives a shit to backtrace the conversation to the original post because the way this anon is talking you'd think the conversation was completely different

>>2826408
Nta but what do you mean? You really think there's a big distinction between Fetterman and the soc dem DSAists? They run on similar platforms

>>2826406
DINOs are RINOs and RINOs are DINOs, read nyerere

>>2826414
the conversation wasn't even about fetterman, it was about FDR, Stalin, United Front Strategy, and the Social Fascist doctrine that the comintern abandoned in 1933. you and that other anon are making it about a completely different question on purpose. but to answer your question

> You really think there's a big distinction between Fetterman and the soc dem DSAists? They run on similar platforms

fetterman used fight agency, the same agency graham platner uses. but just because both of them run on "populist left" platforms doesn't mean anything. fetterman is a huge zionist. platner has aipac connections through his family despite not taking donations. no i don't think they are the same as your DSA marxist caucus types or even necessarily your "squad" democrats from the 2010s. you have to assess material conditions on a case by case basis.

>>2826425
Im just moving along the convo anon, Im not making it about anything. I personally didn't care about some cope about ww2 thisnthat. But that's besides the point.

>but just because both of them run on "populist left" platforms doesn't mean anything
I think it does, they're trying to appeal to the same people, with pretty much the same messaging. Fetterman's a Zionist, Platner is an unrepentant murderer for the zionist US empire. I just don't think that any of the democrat "leftists" are all that dissimilar to Fetterman in practice, tho that guy in particular is a bit of a nutcase to the point that it seems like he has actual brain damage. But you know what I mean

>>2826437
>the original topic is besides the point
>i'm just moving the conversation along
so you think the sky is red? you think other dumb thing i made up just now? you think 1+1=3? come on bro i'm just asking questions and moving the convo along

>>2826388
Don’t care
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/israel-us-military/
<In the first step towards shifting aid further into the shadows, the House's 2027 NDAA would all but fuse the two countries' armed forces together

a time when the American public is expressing unprecedented levels of distrust in the Israeli government, Congress just proposed tying the U.S. to the Israeli military more than ever before.

>Buried in the House's version of the 2027 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) released on Tuesday, is section 224, entitled “United States-Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative.” The provision would arguably do more to intertwine the U.S. military with the Israeli military than the more than $200 billion (inflation adjusted) in military assistance Israel has received from the U.S. since its founding in 1948.

>Section 224 lays the groundwork for bilateral research and development, co-production of weapons, joint ventures, licensing agreements, and seemingly every manner of U.S.-Israeli military-industrial complex cooperation. The U.S. and Israel already work together heavily on missile defense, but this provision would greatly expand coordination to seemingly every area of defense tech, including AI, quantum, autonomous systems, directed energy, cyber, biotech, and many more. It also proposes “network integration” and “data fusion.” In other words, the U.S. military’s data could soon be the Israeli military’s data.

>If fully enacted, this proposal would provide a higher level of military-industrial integration than the U.S. has with any other country in the world. To be sure, the U.S. has worked closely with its NATO partners on co-production and shared supply chains, most notably via the Defence Production Action Plan. And, as the number one arms dealer in the world, the U.S. provides weapons to militaries across the globe. But that is mostly a one-way street, with the U.S. providing weapons to foreign buyers who only occasionally make parts for those weapons themselves, as in the case of the F-35’s global supply chain.

>Section 224 would be a different beast entirely. It would fuse the U.S. and Israeli defense sectors in multiple areas vital to the battlefields of the future, like autonomous systems and cyber. It would also bring extraordinary Israeli influence to the U.S. beyond what it already has through the Israel lobby and its robust network of social media influencers. It would give the Israeli government the opportunity to greatly expand one of the most powerful levers of influence in U.S. politics: jobs in the U.S. By expanding or starting new co-production facilities like it already has in Mississippi and Arkansas, the Israeli government could boast of providing jobs on U.S. soil, thereby securing allies among members of Congress who represent the districts where those jobs lie.

>The result could well be a U.S. political system even more susceptible to the whims of an Israeli government that seemingly has no qualms about drawing the U.S. into military conflicts in the Middle East.

>This unprecedented level of U.S.-Israeli military integration stands in stark contrast to the traditional aid model of defense cooperation, in which Israel already stood out as the top recipient of U.S. military assistance. As laid out in a recent Quincy Institute brief, authored by Steven Simon, this shift from an aid model to a military integration model has troubling implications, namely:
<The shift will strip away the political and diplomatic oversight mechanisms that make the relationship publicly accountable, moving it from a visible annual aid vote into the opaque machinery of defense acquisition, where oversight is limited and political accountability is minimal. The result would be a defense relationship that is simultaneously deeper and less transparent.

Ok it might actually be a bubble

>>2826437
>I think it does, they're trying to appeal to the same people, with pretty much the same messaging. Fetterman's a Zionist, Platner is an unrepentant murderer for the zionist US empire. I just don't think that any of the democrat "leftists" are all that dissimilar to Fetterman in practice, tho that guy in particular is a bit of a nutcase to the point that it seems like he has actual brain damage. But you know what I mean
if you weren't in such a hurry to "move the convo along" you'd realize your "points" were already addressed in the very opening post of the conversation: >>2826349

quoting that post:

<if you support succdems as the lesser evil in a bourgeois imperialist state where the proletariat is nowhere near organized enough for revolution, even while criticizing succdems and making clear that your support is meant to be temporary, you are literally a "social fascist" because stalin and dmitrov said "social democracy is the moderate wing of fascism" 100 years ago in the late 1920s, even though 85 years ago Stalin worked with liberals like FDR and Churchill to defeat fascism after abandoning the social fascist line in 1935, 91 years ago, choosing to adopt a popular front strategy instead

the point is people are getting way ahead of themselves ITT, everyone on leftychud dot larp is always in a big ass hurry to PVRGE the furthest left people in america for not being left enough, while the farthest right people in america continue to consolidate power. it resembles excatly the mistakes of last century. how did stalin go from saying social democrats were fascists in the 1920s to working with literal bourgeoisie in the 1930s to fight fascism? Answer: actual fascists came to power and popular front was a superior strategy to policing the imperial core left for their imperfections (very real and very imperialist, and shouldn't be downplayed)

>>2826442
Ok the other anon went on a tangent about fetterman being a soc dem, the previous convo was inactive and I'd already replied to everyone that responded to me. Like what you wanna go back to talking about Stalin and FDR or whatever? The conversation moved on to Fettermen when you decided to indulge that anon

>>2826451
Hasn't the data shown that LLMs are actually vastly more expensive than actual proles? LLMs have mostly lowered the cost to get people invested and dependent on them before ratcheting up the price of those "tools"

>>2826455
the conversation only "moved on" to fetterman because anon wanted to ignore the historical context and make some particularly egregiously reactionary contemporary democrat the focus of discussion

>>2826458
>>2826451
AI data centers are just pic related but more subtle

Can you shut up about the orge already

>>2826451
Definitely. And they're also accelerating whatever plots and plans they have on hand.

>>2826454
>the point is people are getting way ahead of themselves ITT
I really can't stress this enough. People like to pretend that it's 1930, when the situation of the worker's movement is probably closer to how it was in 1850.
>how did stalin go from saying social democrats were fascists in the 1920s to working with literal bourgeoisie in the 1930s to fight fascism? Answer: actual fascists came to power and popular front was a superior strategy to policing the imperial core left for their imperfections
People also just completely ignore why the Soviets developed the social fascism theory in the first place. It was because in an era where one socialist state had already been established and most major European countries had not only a robust worker's movement, but a strong communist party, the idea of imminent revolution actually seemed plausible. In that situation, social democrats really are one of the biggest obstacles to it. After all, they organized and commanded the loyalty of millions of workers, and used this influence to deliberately keep those workers out of the revolutionary camp. If you live in an era where the worker's movement as a whole is in shambles, where neither social democracy nor communism have any real power, and where nobody in their right mind thinks we're anywhere close to a revolution, then treating them as the obstacle they once were is just delusional. I've said this before, but the question of social democracy vs revolutionary communism is essentially a question of where and how to direct the energy and power of the worker's movement. But if that movement has no energy or power, then the question is irrelevant. If every social democrat became a communist tomorrow, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference because there would still be no organized and politicized mass of workers capable of wielding power. We need a movement before we can seriously start arguing about how to direct it.

>>2826454
I already addressed that in my response, it's cope for dickriding democrats

>the point is people are getting way ahead of themselves ITT, everyone on leftychud dot larp is always in a big ass hurry to PVRGE the furthest left people in america for not being left enough, while the farthest right people in america continue to consolidate power. it resembles excatly the mistakes of last century. how did stalin go from saying social democrats were fascists in the 1920s to working with literal bourgeoisie in the 1930s to fight fascism? Answer: actual fascists came to power and popular front was a superior strategy to policing the imperial core left for their imperfections (very real and very imperialist, and shouldn't be downplayed)
What people are in a big ass hurry for is for americans to organize an independent working class party, rather than endlessly dickride soc dems who's literal only purpose is to guide people towards joining the genocidal imperialist democratic party.

Stalin at the head of a fully fledged and industrialized socialist nation allying with liberal nations during a war of annihilation with the fascists has nothing to do with any of this, that is why I call it cope. It's only connection is some people use allegations of social fascism like communists did in that time, but that's hardly the extent of what is actually being critiqued here. There is no "actual facists" to rise to power, the current american government is already the most powerful reactionary, imperialist force in history. These socdems are not aligning against some future worse fascist regime, they are already working towards the goals of the highest orders of imperialism

>>2826467
That's fine, no need to be all up in arms about it

>>2826446
The actual documents themselves

>>2826414
DSA isn't socdem though

>>2826489
>social democrats suck but they are better than democrats, and there is no real communist movement in the USA yet, that needs way more time before it is built up
<UMMM THEY'RE THE SAME AND YOU'RE DICKRIDING DEMOCRATS

tiresome rhetoric. if i wanted to stoop to your level i would accuse you of dickriding republicans, but everyone is smart enough to know that's a bunch of nonsense.

hit me up when there's actual armed cadres ready to turn the imperialist war into a civil war

>>2826491
why are you allowed to "move the conversation" to fetterman but anon is not allowed to "move the conversation" back to the original topic? you're playing a game: decontextualize and smear

>>2826497
>>2826489
I think part of the issue stems from the question of socdems operating within the Democratic Party (e.g. Bernie, Hasan) and those operating outside of it, like Cornel West. That's a pretty important distinction to make, since an independent social democratic party could potentially accomplish a lot of important and necessary tasks at this stage, but anybody working within the Democratic Party likely cannot.

>>2826499
Can we allow this conversation to move to the current thread topic?

>>2826503
why do you want to talk about fetterman specifically? What is there to say? He is a fat ugly aipac funded ogre who ran as a democrat in an imperialist party.

>>2826485
>It was because in an era where one socialist state had already been established and most major European countries had not only a robust worker's movement, but a strong communist party, the idea of imminent revolution actually seemed plausible.
Armed conflict going on in Europe. Instead of us debating Black Lives Matter we're talking about communists with guns on top of the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin. We're about as far removed from BLM now as the Comintern was from that when they came up with that theory.

>>2826497
They are not better than democrats, they're worse, they're subordinate to the democrats. They make the democrats stronger, less likely to be overthrown as they want to rehabilitate them. This is what you are advocating for, a rehabilitated, stronger democratic party.

Do you get it yet? Do you see how your republican party comparison is completely retarded and nonsensical?

>hit me up when there's actual armed cadres ready to turn the imperialist war into a civil war
That's your job to create as an american prole and supposed socialist

>>2826499
Because I believe in progress, not a retvrn to the past

>>2826500
I had no idea west was outside the democratic party, he always looked like a democrat shill at the end of the day to me. I guess I don't know that much about him

>>2826504
I don’t. I want to talk about the big moves Israel is making, especially through the NDAA. I find it curious they’re so cocky even with the economy in ever more dire straits. Making big moves to integrate themselves fully into the USA and vice versa. What makes them so confident exactly though?

>>2826507
>That's your job to create as an american prole and supposed socialist
i have a job where i'm exploited already. i don't want a second one that doesn't pay anything and where the boss is you

>>2826496
They're more soc dem than dem soc to me tbh

>>2826507
>they're subordinate to the democrats
if being to the left of democrats is being subordinate to democrats, then you are subordinate to democrats too.

>>2826510
Iirc he ran on the Working Families Party ticket in 2024.

>>2826516
Based

>>2826512
Then don't complain when you're called a dickrider

>>2826515
They are subordinate to them because their political organizing is done through, under the supervision of and serves the interest of the democratic party and moves people towards them. If they had an independent party that doesn't endorse democrats you could say they would not be subordinated

>>2826508
anon's entire point was that stalin went from saying the SPD was social fascist to working with FDR and churchill. so the social fascist doctrine was abandoned by the comintern after a few years, yet people quote it endlessly to pretend history is cyclical. if history is really cyclical then the people call you social fascist for critical support of social mamdani (i.e. admitting he sucks but is better than cuomo) will be working with people way worse than mamdani 10 years from now.

>>2826516
damn he really been with the shit

>>2826519
> If they had an independent party that doesn't endorse democrats you could say they would not be subordinated
ok but there is no such independent party and i don't have the free time to build one single handedly, especially when people suck and won't join it anyway

>>2826519
>Then don't complain when you're called a dickrider
you're just mad people aren't riding your dick

>>2826520
Balancing the entire argument on the anachronistic accusations of social fascism , as if that is all that the argument is about, is stupid and a cope to make the position seem more tenable than it is.

>>2826519
>They are subordinate to them because their political organizing is done through, under the supervision of and serves the interest of the democratic party and moves people towards them
I don't think anything can be gained by working within the Democratic Party, but it's also pretty clear that the DNC regards this social democratic wing as a mutiny that needs to be put down rather than a tool to sheepdog leftists.

>>2826522
Go join one then, or the closest thing to it and try to steer it in that direction, instead of dickriding for soc dems as "lesser evil"

>>2826523
Wrong! Your mom is riding my dick right now actually

>>2826527
That doesn't really matter, whether the dems regard their own saviors with contempt or not, they will save them either way

>>2826514
At worst they're left-populist, aka center-left, as opposed to socdem which is at best centrism

remember the hentaivirus? guess it was a nothing burger

>>2826534
Of course it was. You have to eat ratshit to get it.

>>2826531
It matters insofar as we should recognize that there is a hostility between those two wings of the party, and we should work that to our advantage, e.g. by peeling progressives away from them into an independent working class party. If you assume that every socialist who works within the democratic party is actively and consciously friendly to the democratic leadership, then you're going to miss out on a lot of recruitment opportunities. The reality is that many socdems working within the party are doing so in the hopes of displacing its neoliberal leadership, not because they are deliberately trying to strengthen it. Besides, if you consider these people as saving the democrats in practice, then you should want to get them out.

>>2826536
we can find better communists in the GOP then in among dems

>>2826536
Sure that I can agree with

>>2826532
To me this is splitting hairs, they're all in support of the democratic party, which is what matters

>>2826541
>they're all in support of the democratic party
Some are, some aren't. It's a decentralized big tent that's still in development due to big, rapid bursts of change in the last decade, so we can't be sure yet.

Why are we still talking about succdems

>>2826542
>It's a decentralized big tent
It sure is

>>2826538
I'm unironically interested in how you could come to such a conclusion.

>>2826550
The NSDSA is 100% Zionist because it willingly subordinates itself to the most genocidal and Zionist political party of our era

>>2826554
stinky bait

>>2826555
It’s an indictment of the state of this site that basic facts are dismissed as “bait”

>>2826551
modern liberalism is a tool created by the CIA to promote IDpol and push people away from class issues. These people are literal poison to any Marxist movement

>>2826560
>to promote IDpol and push people away from class issues
Republicans engage in idpol all the time though, and for the exact same reason.

>>2826562
Only in reaction to the complete insanity pushed by the anti-communist left. Nobody would give a shit about LGBTABCBBQ shit if it’s advocates weren’t trying to force public schools to teach children how to give blowjobs and make it a criminal offense to use the “wrong” pronouns

>>2826562
sure but the average republican would agree with Stalin on those issues then the average liberal

>>2826550
You missed the
>still in development due to big, rapid bursts of change
part of what I said. Modern DSA still has an unclear platform because it has grown so haphazardly (2016, 2018, 2025) and because class consciousness in the USA is still extremely minimal, so you still have a large chunk of reformists in it - aka growing pains. It remains to be seen what it will ultimately become.

>>2826570
Do you think the average republican would agree to creating autonomous regions for national minorities, or operating large scale affirmative action programs? What about state atheism, or having half (or more) of STEM graduates be women? These things existed in the USSR. It was not a socially conservative country, certainly not by the standards of the time and in many ways not even by the standards of today.

>>2826577
>Do you think the average republican would agree to creating autonomous regions for national minorities
yeah I think they'd support segregation

>>2826573
They have a very clear platform: social welfare for the master race, slavery and genocide for the periphery. Their platform is a carbon copy of the NSDAP with a little more idpol sprinkled in

>>2826573
>Talking like this about a 40 year old org
I wouldn't hold your breath

>>2826570
>engage in counter-revolutionary activity
>get shot
>it's because of muh identity!11
every time

>>2826583
factory status?

>>2826583
There are anti-imperialist caucuses in the DSA.

race war status?

>>2826595
>there are anti-nazi caucuses in the Nazi party
Incoherent

>>2826595
Do you actually believe this?

Odds: Adorno's Introduction To Sociology
Evens: Foucault's Archeology of Knowledge

>>2826595
not wrong actually

>>2826604
Do you care if they do? Cause I don’t personally.

>>2826531
>That doesn't really matter, whether the dems regard their own saviors with contempt or not, they will save them either way
are you calvinist or something

>>2826616
I know that you’re annoying

>>2826613
Idk, im mildly curious I guess

>>2826525
what is tenable in your opinion?

>>2826616
How so?

>>2826619
Building a working class party outside of the democrats and not dickriding them any longer

>>2826621
It's not like it's destined to be, but that's what they are doing in practice, regardless of what the dems think about it

>>2826619
local municipal councils to form a communalist structure

>>2826604
Of course he doesn’t, he knows the DSA is a National Socialist party and that’s why he explicitly supports them

>>2826618
Be mildly curious about something else.

>>2826627
JDPON occupation is the only solution

>>2826625
You trust your neighbors? Fucking freak

>>2826631
global thermonuclear war is the only solution

>>2826635
Correct, bless armageddon

Leftist and liberals that compares Trumpism to Putinism or Orbanism are completely wrong. If they had anything in common then the state's infrastructures would be well maintained and government would avoid needless frictions.
It is really mutant-reaganism without any redistribution of the copper wire money to the middle class, the latter of which doesnt even look like the middle class anymore, only wealthy specialists live like the pre-2008 american middle class now.

>>2826627
Did you notice his Freudian slip he deleted saying there was anti imperialists in the DNC? lol

>>2826628
I don't care enough to care about your objection to my inquiry

>>2826631
JDPON and culling most of the American population by default are the bare minimum at this point

>>2826516
wasn't he also arrested in the summer of 2020?

>>2826638
The contradictions are increasing at an accelerated rate under the Trump administration
>>2826641
I don’t care for your not caring of my not caring for talks about reformists

>>2826622
I agree with that and never didn't.

>>2826645
ok then do it

>>2826534
smokescreen for the ebola pandemic

>>2826622
I am interested in hearing about this conversation

>>2826622
even if we did somehow, as long as the 2 party system exists, they won't be able to do anything beyond minimal reformism

>>2826658
anon knows that, which is why he polices any attempt to actually build an alternative to the two party system with larping about purges

>>2826583
the dsa is fully evolved. don't expect a mega-evolution.

>>2826658
>>2826659
The Two party system is literally failing at the moment. No better time to talk about this
>>2826662
The DSA is irrelevant. Contradictions have outpaced it.

>>2826641
>Did you notice his Freudian slip he deleted saying there was anti imperialists in the DNC?
Yeah man it's called a typo.
>>2826627
I don't "explicitly support" the DSA. I think their strategy is a dead end precisely because of it being tied to the Democratic Party, and it's also got plenty of libs in it. However there are caucuses with in it which explicitly identify as Marxists and make their anti-imperialist positions clear. Picrel are from Emerge and Springs of Revolution points of unity.

>>2826651
Good, then don't support and rally for soc dems who want the opposite of that

>>2826657
Me too man, me too

>>2826658
The working class party has to overthrow the duopoly/uniparty

>>2826665
>The Two party system is literally failing at the moment.
and people should support which organization instead? it doesn't exist yet and all the existing organizations are dickriders, but any attempt to build something new will be accused of being dickriders anyway because it will necessarily have to appeal to the interests of americans who are treatlers

>>2826668
>Good, then don't support and rally for soc dems who want the opposite of that
know what critical support is? you CRITICIZE the socdems while supporting them against the mainstream democrats. then the very MOMENT there is an actual real communist movement you support them against the socdems. the disagreement here seems to stem from the mistaken idea that there is zero difference between someone like zohran mamdani and joe biden

>U.S. socialists have a duty to stand firmly against militarism and police tyranny, beginning with a clear opposition to the imperialist designs of our own state. In the belly of the American empire, any socialist program must firmly oppose (neo)colonialism and advance the principles of national self-determination—that each country must be sovereign to decide its own affairs, free from military coercion or economic extortion. This means taking a defeatist stance against our country's wars, including those engaged by proxies and through military alliances like NATO, as well as cruel economic sanctions and military and diplomatic cover for colonial occupation, police repression, and ethnic cleansing.
>With every tool available to us, we must erode the political, cultural, and physical hegemony of the U.S. police state. The affirmative votes of DSA-endorsed electeds for military and cop budgets, arms shipments to US vassal states, and the legal condemnation of anti-Zionism, all serve to weaken the socialist project for human emancipation. It is insufficient for socialist legislators to rhetorically criticize excessive military spending. They should be bound by our program to force a genuine public confrontation over the matter by refusing to vote for military, police, national security and intelligence budgets. By building a genuine and disciplined party infrastructure, DSA legislators and councilors would be on the forefront of a nation-wide confrontation with the imperialist state, exposing the interconnectedness of police and military brutality.
https://www.marxistunity.com/
Statements made by Nazis in a Nazi party apparently.

>>2826666
>Yeah man it's called a typo
Riiiight, riiight


>However there are caucuses with in it which explicitly identify as Marxists and make their anti-imperialist positions clear
You simply can't be in an imperialist party organ and claim to be anti imperialist. It's that simple dude

>>2826678
>You simply can't be in an imperialist party organ and claim to be anti imperialist
Do you understand the difference between being misguided and being malicious? It's completely valid to say that the DSA's strategy is futile. It's completely retarded to say it's a Nazi party that is consciously pro-imperialist.

>>2826676
i don't believe them, therefore they are lying, therefore they are the same as nazis, therefore you are too, therefore i am on a nazi website, therefore i will be back tomorrow on my favorite nazi website to talk to my favorite nazis. checkmate, nazi

>>2826676
very based

>>2826676
this post is a psyop

to the reader of this reminder, the internet is not real
you should go outsite, get inolved and remember the internet is manufatured

I'm going to wake up soon and realise this dream is the result of reading too much of my school's history textbook on the early 21st century and thank an existenceless god for being born in the 2200's

>>2826678
>You simply can't be in an imperialist party organ and claim to be anti imperialist. It's that simple dude
if tomorrow an actual honest to god bolshevik movement arose in the USA you would call them imperialist treatlers and say all their stated positions are lies.

OP article is probably fake

>>2826665
>The DSA is irrelevant. Contradictions have outpaced it.
We don't have any other at least nominally "socialist" org in this country that does anything, so this makes no sense even if you ignore everything else about the org.
>>2826668
>The working class party has to overthrow the duopoly/uniparty
Yes, but it is impossible in the two party system we have currently to avoid dickriding either part of the uniparty. Even if every other "socialist"/"socdem"/whatever group immediately dissolved and reconstituted into one group that was firmly socialist and could somehow manage to get, say, 10% of the national vote, with our current system they still wouldn't be able to do anything. At most they could jockey for legislation changes in the House/Senate and enact local/state-level reforms, but they still would be a far cry from a "worker's party" that could seriously challenge and overthrow the uniparty.

>>2826690
your job is to do illegal shit and go to jail forever. not win elections. don't you understand that? i am very smart.

>>2826672
>and people should support which organization instead?
Their own
>it doesn't exist
Change that
>but any attempt to build something new will be accused of being dickriders anyway
Persevere
>>2826690
>We don't have any other at least nominally "socialist" org in this country that does anything
Change. That.

>>2826614
Someone post this on the ai data centre thread

>>2826676
All this article does is whine about how bad the American herrenvolk supposedly have it. How DARE police rough up God’s chosen people?!? After all, this kind of brutality should be reserved for the subhuman scum in the imperial periphery who need to be ruthlessly exploited to uphold the American standard of living. That’s the underlying message of this and any other article whining about “muh police brutality”

>>2826690
>Even if every other "socialist"/"socdem"/whatever group immediately dissolved and reconstituted into one group that was firmly socialist and could somehow manage to get, say, 10% of the national vote, with our current system they still wouldn't be able to do anything
Given the nature of the duopoly, a syndicalist strategy without a separation between union and political work might prove more effective. Historically speaking, the high points of the American left (IWW, early CPUSA, Black Panthers, etc.) have never come in the form of electoral success, but successfully organizing people outside the state apparatus. Even if they did form a party this would probably be the correct area of focus.
>>2826696
>All this article does is whine about how bad the American herrenvolk supposedly have it.
Man shut the fuck up. It specifically calls for revolutionary defeatism and opposition to all imperial wars, including through proxies like Israel and NATO.

>>2826694
>just get a second payless thankless job because a stranger told you to
ok, i'll get right on that. but only if you pinky promise to do the same thing

>>2826696
how do you build a mass movement in america whose foundational thesis is that americans are evil treatler "herrenvolk" who must be exterminated for the good of the planet? you never answer this. but you also reject the JDPON idea and say the movement has to come from inside this country.

>>2826697
>Man shut the fuck up. It specifically calls for revolutionary defeatism and opposition to all imperial wars, including through proxies like Israel and NATO.
they're lying because he says so. don't you understand? no? me neither.

>>2826675
Im telling you not to support them, critically or not, if they are democrats, or democrat dickriders, they want the opposite of what you want. There's nothing there for you to support. Did Marx "critically support" bourgeois utopians? Did Lenin "critically support" Kautskyists? No, they just critiqued these positions as being antithetical to the goals of the movement. There is nothing to be gained by tailism

> the mistaken idea that there is zero difference between someone like zohran mamdani and joe biden
They are both part of and/or in allegiance to the same party, they serve the same interests

>>2826704
Additionally, "critical support" for social democrats within the Democratic party is pretty meaningless when you consider the question of support to what end? The DNC isn't going to allow them to launch a takeover of the party the way the MAGAs did with the GOP. Critically supporting a socdem in the Democrats is like supporting a man walking into a brick wall. He's on a path to nowhere.

>>2826681
>Do you understand the difference between being misguided and being malicious?
It's irrelevant. If they're misguided into joining an imperialist party apparatus, they can't be anti-imperialist, regardless of their intentions, objectively they are pro imperialist.

>It's completely valid to say that the DSA's strategy is futile. It's completely retarded to say it's a Nazi party that is consciously pro-imperialist.
Again, whether people are aware or conscious of the fact they are in an imperialist party apparatus is irrelevant to them being in it

>>2826697
Actions speak louder than words, and the ACTIONS of the DSA have and always will be uncritical support of the most genocidal Zionist political organization in existence
>>2826700
Not everyone who disagrees with you is the same person. Personally I think Felix is delusional if he thinks anything less than JDPOn holding Americans at gunpoint is the solution, because there are maybe a few thousand communists in the entirety of North America; not nearly enough to cull the dross and command the survivors even if the party commanded all the guns

>>2826599
Honestly that people on here think the DSA is equivalent to the Nazi party is a good example of frankly vulgar analysis that relies more on past dogma and disputes than examination and inquiry.

Its like that Marx quote about the traditions of dead generations being a nightmare on the brains of the living. There's zero thought, just the regurgitation of old slogans.

>>2826704
>Did Marx "critically support" bourgeois utopians?

<When we returned to Germany, in spring 1848, we joined the Democratic Party as the only possible means of getting the ear of the working class; we were the most advanced wing of that party, but still a wing of it. When Marx founded the International, he drew up the General Rules in such a way that all working-class socialists of that period could join it – Proudhonists, Pierre Lerouxists and even the more advanced section of the English Trades Unions; and it was only through this latitude that the International became what it was, the means of gradually dissolving and absorbing all these minor sects, […] Had we from 1864, to 1873 insisted on working together only with those who openly adopted our platform where should we be to-day? I think that all our practice has shown that it is possible to work along with the general movement of the working class at every one of its stages without giving up or hiding our own distinct position and even organisation […]

• Friedrich Engels, Letter to Florence Kelley Wischnewetsky, January 27, 1887
  
  

unfortunately we live in the blackest reaction, and america's labor movements in shambles. there is no comintern. we are not even in a 1910s style struggle between bolsheviks and mensheviks, or even a 1920s style struggle between communists and social democrats. we are in the 1850s, trying to build a movement that is actually worth calling a movement.

>>2826688
Cope more I guess?

>>2826709
ok well there is no JDPON and the US government will just nuke the planet if invaded so I think felix is right that the movement to defeat american imperialism has to come from inside america, but I think he is stupid for trying to build a movement out of moralistic browbeating the people who are supposed to compose it for being evil.

>>2826713
what does that mean

Hello, time traveler here:

In the future, the USA will provide "political resorts" where you can go to LARP as your chosen political ideology for a while.

>>2826699
>just get a second payless thankless job because a stranger told you to
Payless? Are you looking for monetary value? What are you, a fucking liberal? You’re supposed to be among the most advanced portions of the proletariat. You should have already figured out how you’re getting “paid” by now. And stranger? Sure I am, but Karl Marx shouldn’t be. And he’s also made quite clear the role of a communist.

>>2826676
Marxists that call for electoralism instead of revolution are not Marxists at all. These are libs trying to reform an organization that explicitly and openly exists to destroy them.

It is pretty funny how they are considerably to the left of the DNCUPSA, though, who explicitly calls for "Bill of Rights Socialism" built around America's reactionary constitution and class collaboration with an openly imperialist party, the Democrats.

>>2826712
The first international was not a subsidiary to an imperialist party. If the DSA was an independent working class party, with a broad net which happened to include soc dems, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it

>>2826712
Stop being such a baby, christ.

>>2826717
>hah, you fucking idiot. you don't want to do dangerous thankless work that could get you killed for free, with bosses who moralistically browbeat you and call you evil for trying to work with them, what are you some kinda fucking liberal
deep. real deep

>>2826718
participating in elections =/= electoralism

>>2826715
That I don't know what else to say to that asspull than cope more lol

>>2826720
so what did you think of the engels quote and my analysis?

>>2826614
4/20

>>2826724
The Engels quote is good, the analysis is useless doomerism.

>>2826723
your responses are the real asspull here. I'm giving you the opportuntiy to make a real point and you're falling back on imageboard snark

>>2826666
lmao they're calling their little LARP camps a "student intifada" the self-absorption of bourgeois liberals will never cease to amaze me.

>>2826726
how is it doomerism? i just stated that the current goal is to build a movement worth calling a movement, and that we live in the blackest reaction, which is what stalin called a future without the USSR, which is incidentally what came to pass.

>>2826709
>and the ACTIONS of the DSA have and always will be uncritical support of the most genocidal Zionist political organization in existence
They regularly criticize the Democratic party actually, and whether or not they actually interact with it and in what capacity depends on the chapter, the shape of the local electoral landscape, who is running, etc. This is also another reason why it's nonsensical to paint the DSA with so broad a brush. Most chapters have significant independence from each other and can vary wildly in their actions and strategy depending on the caucuses and individuals that make them up. The DSA has no coherent line beyond the vague strategy of forming voting blocs designed to help get certain candidates elected. Those candidates are often democrats, but there's nothing officially tying them to the Democratic Party as such. They can and do back independents.
>>2826718
>Marxists that call for electoralism instead of revolution are not Marxists at all
Lenin and Marx called for communists to participate in elections, and Marxist Unity Group does call for revolution through organizing outside the state.

>>2826727
A real response to what? "You'd deny a real bolshevik uprising because uhhhh I said so?", it's just you coping because you disagree with me but can't formulate a real argument.

What else is there to say?

>>2826721
>Waaaah Waaaah, I actually have to get out of my armchair and advanced the real movement
omfg

>>2826731
i can only have this exact template of conversation so many times before that's the vibe i get. i think the two party system, american imperialism, should be dstroyed. organize outside the two party system. zohrans should be critically supported against cuomos, and then when we have an actual real movement capable of abolishing the present state of things, it will be uncritically supported against the zohrans, who are the kautskies of our day. but at the current juncture, which is the juncture we are forced to act within, that is not the case. i am not getting in the way of changing things, i am just saying what the present things are.

>>2826729
>just stated that the current goal is to build a movement worth calling a movement
No you didn’t. You called it the blackest reaction and whined about how shitty things are. Focus on the objective please and stop glorifying the past with baseless asspulls. You know of the red scare and the times preceding it? That was the blackest reaction.

>>2826732
no shit but i'm not gonna talk about it on here

>>2826737
>No you didn’t.
?????????? PICTURE RELATED HIGHLIGHTED STATUS??????? FINISH READING MY POST BEFORE REPLYING NEXT TIME STATUS??????????

>>2826733
>zohrans, who are the kautskies of our day
Being way too generous with Zohran tbh. For all his flaws, modern Marxism (whether Leninist or Leftcom or whatever) is still derived from the Kautskyist Center tradition.

>>2826740
This. Zohran and his ilk are more Bernstein than Kautsky.

>>2826730
>Lenin and Marx called for communists to participate in elections, and Marxist Unity Group does call for revolution through organizing outside the state.
Yes, key word COMMUNISTS. Militant reactionaries like “Marxist” Unity Group should only be interacted with via bayonet or bullet

>>2826740
my point is it doesn't matter how fascist we call the socdems if there is no actual movement superior to them besides a few unarmed and irrelevant parties.

>>2826743
No one cares, you’ll never do anything, just fuck off and shut up, you’re boring

>>2826743
You must be doing a bit at this point.

>>2826733
>i think the two party system, american imperialism, should be dstroyed
Then don't get so up in arms about people who don't think you should support agents of imperialism and the uniparty.

>and then when
No you fucker, now, not then when. The real movement is already happening, there are already people organizing in ways outside the uniparty. You don't have to be their slave until some magical moment in the future when the real movement will suddenly appear

>>2826743
laughing at the idea of you stabbing random DSA caucus people while billionaires cackle in the background

>>2826748
Where are they organizing? In China? It’s not in America

>>2826739
(no apology? figures. this will get ignored)

>>2826746
You have no idea what I have or haven’t done and I intend to keep it that way until Red Army cadres break down your door and drag you out screaming for mercy

>>2826739
You didn’t JUST say that

>>2826752
Not happening, you’re boring, get a new bit

>>2826738
You aren’t going to talk about movement building period

>>2826750
There is organizations that work outside the duopoly, if there's none near you, join the closest thing and change it. But for the love of god stop crying about people rejecting your favorite soc dems

the JDPON larp is cringe because america will just nuke the planet if threatened

the social fascism line is premature because the US government hasn't even been overthrown yet. you are trying to purge SRs, mensheviks, trotskyites, etc. like it's the 1930s before the tsar has even been overthrown

yes you should build something outside the democrat party, but you should also accept that you have to work with real people in the real world who are less politically educated than you and possibly even more reactionary than you and don't have all the based takes you have. you and your 10 friends on your obscure imageboard aren't going to overthrow shit

that doesn't mean tail their reactionary positions

it doesn't mean don't educate them

it doesn't mean liquidationism or rejection of armed struggle

but you should also remember that it's not 1910s russia or even 1970s south africa. they have facial recognition tech. this country has the highest per capita prison population on earth. it is bristling with nukes and holding the whole planet hostage

we are running out of time to go around in circles like this

>>2826755
yeah because my conclusion had to be supported by premise. and my premise is that our movement is actually less developed than the 1920s, in terms of revolutionary militancy. we objectively live in the blackest reaction. that's not me whining, it's the actual conditions on the ground.

>>2826760
I reject the soc dems, there’s also nothing around to join, I’m not qualified to start anything and I don’t plan on getting killed by the feds. Until there’s an actual chance of victory and overthrowing the government it makes no sense to risk such a thing.

>>2826761
It’s already over and the struggle was lost 100 years ago, just do drugs and beat off until the water gets too high

>>2826761
Or you could just grow the fuck up and accept that the real movement is being led by the CPC and communism in America is a pipe dream

>>2826763
You're not gonna get killed by the feds anon, get your head out of your ass. You're just making excuses. That's fine, but then don't make it my problem

>>2826766
i have no serious issues with china, and if i did it would be hypocritical to bring them up in the burger reich thread. i don't know why you're pivoting to them except to decontextualize the already very low quality conversation even further

>>2826768
Jail is worse than death, not risking that either

>>2826768
>You're not gonna get killed by the feds anon
the feds have shot libs for much less than planning revolution.

>>2826768
I won’t stop you from starting anything, just don’t expect anyone to join until you’ve already overthrown the government

>>2826765
the guy who called me a doomer for saying we need to build a real movement because we live in the blackest reaction is gonna ignore you lol. something tells me his criticisms aren't honest

>>2826775
Alex Pretti was a willing Zionist foot soldier who would have been tortured and executed long ago were there any actual communist movement in America, but because he got himself killed fighting on behalf the of his fellow terrorists he’s a hero to the western left

>>2826780
Yawn, get off the stage

>>2826783
Adorable Reddit comeback

>>2826773
>>2826775
>>2826776
That's fine, but then don't complain about people who do advocate for anti imperialist positions. Start every post with "I am against social revolution" and then we can all stop wasting time

>>2826785
I’m not against social revolution, I don’t see how it’s possible or what the mechanism would be

>>2826780
yes and the feds still shot him. think of what they'll do to an actual threat

>>2826784
You’ve been posting the same bit for three years, you deserve reddit comebacks

>>2826785
dedollarization and declining standard of living will create the conditions for social revolution in america

>>2826793
The Great Depression didn’t do that, 2008 didn’t do that, COVID didn’t do that, what’s different now?

>>2826797
the superstructure is collapsing this time, and not just the base

>>2826798
Everyone is alone all the time, including at work, how is a revolution supposed to happen in that context? Over communication channels the authorities surveil and can shut down any time they want?

>>2826788
>Im not against social revolution, Im just a defeatist
That's being against revolution

>>2826793
Not if the conscious workers dont organize

>>2826799
that's a good question and i don't know the answer but i frankly wasn't prepared for your questions because i was being argued with from the other direction by someone else

>>2826801
Defeatism is sober analysis until you prove it wrong through your action, but you won’t because you can’t

>>2826801
>Not if the conscious workers dont organize
but if americans are treatlers then their consciousness won't grow until their standard of living collapses from dedollarization and more Ls in their imperialist adventures.

>>2826801
you put words in his mouth, he never said he was a defeatist. but the funny thing is defeatism is revolutionary in an imperialist context. you are supposed to want the defeat of your "own" government in the imperialist war so it can turn into a civil war.

>>2826802
You’re more honest than the vast majority of posters anywhere, I appreciate that

>>2826804
That's might be, but that doesn't take away your anti revolutionary stance. You have no grounds to complain about strategy or theory, because you have no alternative

>>2826805
It is already happening and has been for a while

>>2826807
That's revolutionary defeatism, Im talking about more general defeatism, which is basically just a resignation to the status quo. Unless Im misusing that term idk

>>2826813
Marxism is ruthless criticism, not building anything new or providing an alternative

>>2826813
>It is already happening and has been for a while
Where? Give an example? The Amazon union?

>>2826813
>It is already happening and has been for a while
right and so you gotta agitate and militarize americans into a working class movement by pointing to the decrease in their standard of living, but that's hard to do if you say all the other people doing that are impure and just want herrenvolk to get their treats back, and that american standard of living is inversely proportional to everyone else's

>>2826813
Marxism is science, medicine is science, sometimes a patient is terminally ill and there’s nothing you can do to help outside giving them a death with less pain. Why wouldn’t this be true of society?

>>2826814
pic rel
>>2826815
I think there's a notable uptick in advocacy for communism, interest in socialism and organizing outside of uniparty hegemony, compared to the previous decades. I am too lazy to list off a bunch of examples, we can agree to disagree

>>2826818
Idk, I do think people can become aware that while imperialism might benefit them somewhat in the short term, it wont last and it's already not lasting. It was a bad gambit from the start, sweet as that boomer generation must have had it, we are now at the end of the road. I don't think this is really that far away from where a lot of people are already at.

>>2826819
Because there's nothing really Marxist about your analysis my man, it's not much more than political nihilism. There's a board for that y'know?

>>2826829
Until you prove Marxism correct, nihilism is correct by default

Very telling that none of you have any real answers to >>2826799

>>2826834
What do you think the answer is anon? I suppose you could argue to organize more locally, in real life, or like many orgs do and communicate over non compromised channels. But I guess that doesn't really get to the heart of the question huh?

>>2826832
It has proved itself correct already

SOLDIER!
WE NOTICED THAT YOU'RE A BIG SEXY HUNK!
THE PRESIDENT DEMANDS THAT YOU ATTEND HIS IDIOCRACY EVENT, IMMEDIATELY!!!
YOU WILL PAY YOUR OWN WAY
YOU WILL NOT BE COMPENSATED

>>2826843
will they be required to be naked, and standing "at attention" during the whole event too?

>>2826842
Not in the American context

>>2826820
Correct, the real movement is communism

>>2826846
This is american exceptionalism thinking, only a yanqui could come up with such a retort

>>2826845
Of course, and their cocks must be a minimum 7 inches in length
NO FATTIES BY DIRECT ORDER OF THE SECRETARY OF WAR

>>2826847
>communism doesn't build anything new
are you sure?

>>2826851
In the American context organized labor has only ever been an appendage of imperialism, why would that change?

>>2826847
Point to where communism physically exists

>>2826856
retard

>>2826843
Is he like setting up his own murder? I hope we'll get another attempt, fourth time's the charm right?

>>2826857
You can’t even name a strike that’s happening

>>2826859
He's setting up another fake assassination.
The last one didn't hit so this one is going to be more over the top.
Trump will knock out his assassin in the ring.

>>2826854
changing conditions in the structure of the global economy

>>2826863
That happened before and it didn’t make American workers revolutionary communists, why would it now outside of your faith?

>>2826866
the great depression got very close but FDR was able to co-opt it and de-radicalize it with the new deal

>>2826869
And the same thing will probably happen again

>>2826866
The conditions are changing in ways they weren't before. Plus things are never a given, there's these things called revolutionary opportunities that need to be prepared for. But nobody can accurately predict when such an opportunity will arise obviously

>>2826873
but that's a cyclical theory of history. lightning rarely strikes the same tree twice, and even when it does, the tree is different the second time it is struck. maybe the tree is older, weaker, more dry, more flammable.

>>2826877
Again, people are mostly alone, how does anything come out of that?

>>2826841
If you asked me before COVID I would have said an apocalyptic event would be necessary but now I think that’s not enough. I think we’ve reached an evolutionary dead end both as a society and a species. Fukuyama was right and it sucks.

>>2826880
Society still depends on social interaction anon, it cannot exist without that. While social isolation and alienation are serious obstacles, it's not some end all counter to the possibility of change

Part of what made the proletariat revolutionary in those 19th century European capitals was you had hundreds and hundreds of proletarians all working the same factory floor, socializing while they did it and being in compact neighborhoods where they hung out at the same coffee shops and bars. There’s nothing like that now and reshoring production won’t be the same. Modern factories are as isolating as the office cubicle.

>>2826880
the more alone they get, the more they are like nechayev, and the less they will have to lose. if anything having a family or something like that will make them afraid of endangering their loved ones

>>2826884
a dude just burned down a warehouse and said "all you had to do was pay us enough to live"

>>2826470
We need good agitprop of footage where perfectly good food is being destroyed under capitalism

>>2826884
Sure, that's one of the factors. But it was moreso their proximity to the actual reproductive mechanisms of the economy/society. It's not like people were just chit chatting it up all day either, they were working

>>2826883
It requires less and less with every technological development. Maybe the internet gets destroyed when the AI bubble pops but I’m not confident

>>2826890
workers film themselves doin this all the time

>>2826890
btw what needs to be made clear is that the food is being thrown out even if it's still good, it's not being allowed to be distributed to the workers, and surplus commodities in general are destroyed to stabilize prices and maintain profit rates. giving it away would decrease future demand, and therefore future profits. it's a crisis of overproduction resulting from lack of planning

>>2826903
private porky can't even pull off shit NASA did in the 1960s. trvly the burger reich has fallen

>>2826895
Not really, on a fundamental level it will pretty much always require social interaction for its reproduction. Unless we get into some scifi post singularity shit or whatev

>>2826903
amazon prime about to raise the subscription price

>>2826909
vibe engineering

>>2826891
And no working American outside of farm workers who are mostly migrant labor are anywhere close to that. Maybe logistics workers if you count them as part of the production process.

>>2826710
Dsa supports platner, just like your party. Platner is a nazi. Dsa and cpusa support nazis

>>2826903
its sad the amount of money in subsidies that these retards get and all they do is blow up rockets and send billionaires into the stratosphere for "space tourism". Imagine if it went to actual scientists in NASA instead.

>>2826919
Actual scientists just end up making imperialism more efficient, if anything the bullshit vanity stuff is better

>>2826710
>Honestly that people on here think the DSA is equivalent to the Nazi party is a good example of frankly vulgar analysis that relies more on past dogma and disputes than examination and inquiry.
You explicitly forbid such comparison because such comparison imply historical materialist analysis. What is dsa class character? What is dsa relatiomship to imperialism? You cannot answer because you forbid historical materialism.
>Its like that Marx quote about the traditions of dead generations being a nightmare on the brains of the living. There's zero thought, just the regurgitation of old slogans.
Ironic. You produce no materialism and say token slogans like your party does. You use marx to forbid marxism. You most craven revisionist.

>>2826903
I know there's a lot of other more important bullshit going on but the fact that we pump money into billionaire vanity projects that fail most of the time instead of putting it all into NASA is fucking infuriating.

>>2826920
I'm so tired of you retarded contrarians promoting reactionary actions and using buzzwords to frame it as leftism.

>>2826884
Idk if you've ever worked in a factory, but I've worked in a couple and even in the ones where people were working in relative isolation there was a pretty strong espirit de corps and sense of collective identity. I think that stems naturally from any collaborative project.

>>2826929
I’m literally on shift in a factory right now

>>2826931
Can I ask what sort of factory? I worked in steel plants mostly, and the work was generally pretty individualized. I still found that most of my co-workers were pretty tight knit, hung out outside of work, etc. Maybe it differs between industries.

Stealing this from /leftybritpol/ because you need to hear it

unspeakable truth: most talk of revolution is LARP and the eventual socialist and communist revolutions that occur will be revolutions in the sense of the industrial revolution rather than violent uprisings. at best, you will see color revolution tier "revolutions" where some existing structures are displaced and replaced with broadly similar ones governed by a group more agreeable to economic and social realities.

but this is an unpalatable truth because it means there will be no violent catharsis, there will be no re-enactment of your favorite historical greatest hits, and (for the depressive amongst us) you will not become a martyr for an ultimately-successful revolution as a white army bullet pierces your throat.

civilization-scale progress is always first and foremost boring.

Poland furious after Zelensky renames Special Ops unit after perpetrators of the Volhynia Massacre in which ukrainians genocided over 150,000 poles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

>>2826934
There will almost certainly be quite a bit of this. There were many countries where the bourgeois "revolution" was mostly just existing feudal structures being gradually bourgeoisified until they changed the class character of the state.

>>2826933
I work with steel too, it’s like that, it was also like that when I worked landscaping and fast food even though the turnover was higher. I just don’t think esprit de corps is enough, I just don’t believe American workers will ever have both the leverage and the consciousness combined with a government weak enough to get overthrown. Most people believe the system we have is the least worst of all possible worlds and would probably end up remaking the US constitution as it was “because it worked for so long, just take it back to its roots”

>>2826940
What part of that is 90s to you? It’s not Fukuyamist at all. If anything it’s too optimistic.

>>2826920
The issue is that sending rockets into space is uniquely bad for the environment, im not a scientist so i cant go deep on the reasons, but you're releasing all this CO2 all in one place which is bad.

Its like trophy hunting but on a planetary scale, they're destroying the world and having a laugh about it.

70 hour work weeks have beaten me down. How the fuck did anyone organize shit in the 1800s when it was 100 hours and the only thing to read was the bible?

>>2826946
At least trophy hunting pays for the upkeep of national parks and you’re supposed to kill the most mature male that’s already passed its genes

>>2826873
The most radical will be a Huey Long figure which is the most likely to happen over an FDR this time

>>2826843
The american Colosseum

>>2826762
Late response
>we objectively live in the blackest reaction. that's not me whining, it's the actual conditions on the ground
Nah, that’s you whining. Conditions on the ground my ass. Don’t even have anything to provide for that to be conclusive.

>>2826965
i'm pretty sure you're the cunt whining, the revolutionary movement simply doesn't exist, all you have is random lone wolves, and parties of reformists, to pretend we're at all actually ok and that anything else is whining requires you to be either stupid, or simply a troll

>>2826965
Stalin used the phrase "blackest reaction" to refer to a world without the USSR, that's all i meant by that phrase. unless you think the USSR still exists or didn't get the reference, there's no other reason to see that phrase as "whining"

>>2826968
can you make it clear you're a different anon next time. i'm worried he'll confuse you for me and that will only make him smugger

Just admit your gay already buddy

>>2826986
birds have ZW chromosomes and mammals have XY chromosomes. bird males have ZZ and mammal females have XX

>>2826989
I didn’t know that, neat

>>2826968
>the revolutionary movement simply doesn't exist

1. The Real movement will still exist regardless of what you do, and you have historical progression to work with
   
2. Be the change you want to be
   
3. Stop Whining from your armchair
   
   

>>2826982

>that's all i meant by that phrase
If that’s all you meant, you wouldn’t have said it in the first place, defeatist. No point in it’s utilization here except to espouse doomerism.

>>2826950
the boredom was a motivating factor to do shit. now you just go home and watch netflix to unwind so you can prepare for your next shift. back then you went to the pub and talked shit about your boss with fellow proles.

>>2826997
The truth is the truth regardless of who is saying it or what credentials they have

>>2827000
That isn’t the truth, that’s a claim with nothing backing it.

>>2826986
guy who looks like a cockroach and wipes his bloody boogers on his wall calling men more attractive than women…lol

>>2827001
What’s the party? Where’s the revolutionary movement? Point out physically where it is

>>2826984
i swear more, so that's a good enough distinction as it is
>>2826997
> The Real movement will still exist regardless of what you do, and you have historical progression to work with
>Be the change you want to be
>Stop Whining from your armchair
easy to say when "the real movement" doesn't exist as an actual, present historical force, you pissdrinking little midwit
>>2827004
this is exactly the sort of problem, there is nothing even resembling a "real movement to abolish the present state of things" or anything at all, what you have at best is a bunch of disconnected parties and organizations all with different goals and different aims, based on the failure of the 36 years, we are far worse than in say, 1900, certainly worse than the 1870s

>>2827004
Part one:
>This “alienation” (to use a term which will be comprehensible to the philosophers) can, of course, only be abolished given two practical premises. For it to become an “intolerable” power, i.e. a power against which men make a revolution, it must necessarily have rendered the great mass of humanity “propertyless,” and produced, at the same time, the contradiction of an existing world of wealth and culture, both of which conditions presuppose a great increase in productive power, a high degree of its development. And, on the other hand, this development of productive forces (which itself implies the actual empirical existence of men in their world-historical, instead of local, being) is an absolutely necessary practical premise because without it want is merely made general, and with destitution the struggle for necessities and all the old filthy business would necessarily be reproduced; and furthermore, because only with this universal development of productive forces is a universal intercourse between men established, which produces in all nations simultaneously the phenomenon of the “propertyless” mass (universal competition), makes each nation dependent on the revolutions of the others, and finally has put world-historical, empirically universal individuals in place of local ones. Without this, (1) communism could only exist as a local event; (2) the forces of intercourse themselves could not have developed as universal, hence intolerable powers: they would have remained home-bred conditions surrounded by superstition; and (3) each extension of intercourse would abolish local communism. Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples “all at once” and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism. Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers – the utterly precarious position of labour – power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life – presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a “world-historical” existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history.
<Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

>>2827016
I’M ASKING YOU FOR FUCKING NAMES AND THINGS HAPPENING, YOU FUCKING BIBLE THUMPING RETARD

>>2827016
it seems to you it is in fact an ideal to be established, since you provide literally no evidence of the real movement actually existing in the real world, you talk more like a christian constructing a prophecy rather than a remotely scientific thinker

>>2827010
>>2827004
Part two
<The essential difference between human and animal society is that animals are at most gatherers whilst men are producers. This single but cardinal distinction alone makes it impossible simply to transfer the laws of animal societies to human societies. It makes it possible that, as you justly remark, “Man waged a struggle not only for existence but for enjoyment and for the increase of his enjoyments … he was ready to renounce the lower enjoyments for the sake of the higher.” Without contesting your further deductions from this, the further conclusions I should draw from my premises would be the following: – At a certain stage, therefore, human production reaches a level where not only essential necessities but also luxuries are produced, even if, for the time being, they are only produced for a minority. Hence the struggle for existence – if we allow this category as valid here for a moment – transforms itself into a struggle for enjoyments, a struggle no longer for the mere means of existence but for the means of development, socially produced means of development, and at this stage the categories of the animal kingdom are no longer applicable. But if, as has now come about, production in its capitalist form produces a far greater abundance of the means of existence and development than capitalist society can consume, because capitalist society keeps the great mass of the real producers artificially removed from the means of existence and development; if this society is forced, by the law of its own existence, continually to increase production already too great for it, and, therefore, periodically every ten years, reaches a point where it itself destroys a mass not only of products but of productive forces, what sense is there still left in the talk about the “struggle for existence?” The struggle for existence can then only consist in the producing class taking away the control of production and distribution from the class hitherto entrusted with it but now no longer capable of it; that, however, is the Socialist revolution.
<Incidentally it is to be noted that the mere consideration of past history as a series of class struggles is enough to reveal all the superficiality of the conception of that same history as a slightly varied version of the “struggle for existence.” I should therefore never make that concession to these spurious natural scientists.

Sources:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/letters/75_11_12.htm

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm

>>2827025
Fuck off you half secular guru

>>2827002
he probably says that because he's judging other men relative to himself

>>2827019
>>2827021
>>2827004
>>2827010
Surprise Part 3 (plenty more to be read on the subject in the source)
<Although the German workers cannot come to power and achieve the realization of their class interests without passing through a protracted revolutionary development, this time they can at least be certain that the first act of the approaching revolutionary drama will coincide with the direct victory of their own class in France and will thereby be accelerated. But they themselves must contribute most to their final victory, by informing themselves of their own class interests, by taking up their independent political position as soon as possible, by not allowing themselves to be misled by the hypocritical phrases of the democratic petty bourgeoisie into doubting for one minute the necessity of an independently organized party of the proletariat. Their battle-cry must be: The Permanent Revolution.

Source:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm

>>2827035
Connect that to current American conditions or fuck off

>>2827030
Secular? Certainly. But I am no guru, I am simply well read.

>>2827037
Then why are you acting like a christian with his bible?

>>2827040
Bold of you to assume christians read their precious book

>>2827041
There’s already a bunch of parties, they’re either irrelevant micro sects or appendages of the Democratic party, say which one you think is the least worst you coward

>>2826986
based
kissing ur homies gang at night isn't gay

>>2827043
I don’t particularly care to pick my poison

which party is this ?

>>2826888
If he burned it down because the aliens told him to do it the only difference in the outcome would be the amount of reddit upvotes.

>>2827048
All of them

>>2827041
means nothing if there's nothing for this to be actualized, again, you can keep posting this dogmatically all you want but it's not gonna change the abysmal conditions of now

>>2827053
>means nothing if there's nothing for this to be actualized
What’s nothing hm? Describe that nothing.

>>2827054
there's no independent political structure for that to happen, no movement to create it either

>endorsements have a 100% win rate
>looted the government
>Epstein? Never heard of him.
>got leftoids to stop vandalizing trash cans
>Made everyone stop talking about iran war
Even got the mod team to delete the iran thread. You may not like it, but this is what winning looks like.

>>2826986
Does he think the males of these species try to look good for each other?

I really hope the UFC main event ends in five seconds with someone breaking their leg exactly like Connor and crashing out like a chihuahua

>>2827060
The one at the white house that is

>>2827060
Cazzie spotted.
More people are excited for the co-main because Alex will be the first to get a belt in 3 weight classes if he wins.

>>2827055
You don’t live in a vacuum. You live in an armchair that itself lives in the very real material conditions the real movement stems from

>>2827066
They didn't tell you?

>>2826997
>If that’s all you meant, you wouldn’t have said it in the first place, defeatist
I'm really convinced now that you didn't finish reading my post and weren't familiar with that turn of phrase because I said right after that we are
<trying to build a movement that is actually worth calling a movement.
and then when I repeated that later on you denied I never said that, then when I provided a screenshot and highlighted it, changed your tune and said that I didn't JUST say that and kept harping on what a "doomer" phrase stalin's words are. you keep having to twist yourself into a pretzel to paint me as a doomer when really the original context here was talking about prioritizing leftist infighting and purging the impure at a stage of great weakness and setbacks when perhaps united front tactics are needed against reactionaries. how is that doomer? it's weird that there is an actual other anon who is a proud and open doomer talking to you, but you are going out of your way to call me the doomer.

>>2827070
if you know something i don't, say it

>>2826934
>most talk of revolution is LARP and the eventual socialist and communist revolutions that occur will be revolutions in the sense of the industrial revolution rather than violent uprisings. at best, you will see color revolution tier "revolutions" where some existing structures are displaced and replaced with broadly similar ones governed by a group more agreeable to economic and social realities.
Idk but it's an interesting thought. I don't think the Russian Revolution in 1917 can be seperated from the larger context of World War I where there was just a crazy amount of mass violence happening right in the center of the most industrialized region of the world. Mass conscription, mass mobilization. I think a lot of what the USSR did has to be understood as a product of that really, it doesn't necessarily follow a direct 1:1 line from Karl Marx although the Bolsheviks saw the mobilization enabled by the total war of 1914-1917 as a potential basis for socialization of production. But it really seems like most nations are paper tigers nowadays because they either can't do that or their governments don't want to (nor do the populations seem to much desire it). You have deranged nationalists who want to wipe out their enemies but seems more like total victory for the treatlerites if anything, they get blue balls because the glorious victory over the enemy capital never arrives. It's true in Russia with Z jingos and in the United States and Israel with OSINT nerds crying about Trump doing a TACO and "betraying" Iranians who protested their government.

Rural guerrilla armies in the 20th century are also unlikely to be repeated on the same scale in the 21st century because that was also a product of transition with rapid technological shock in poor, (much more) underdeveloped countries where half of the population lived in medieval villages and was under the age of 18. The Chinese Red Army during the revolution there was mostly comprised of teenage peasant kids. Runaway plantation slave girls.

That was also part of the (bloody) process of modern national unification (largely completed in most of the world). The Red Army would carry around printing presses, currency stamping machines to make their own money. It wasn't just an army but a proto-state on the move in a vast country with areas that had been virtually unchanged since antiquity. At least that was my feeling reading about some of the areas they moved through during the Long March. They recruited more teenage peasant kid soldiers in villages along the way, or dropped off babies born during the march in villages because they'd just die on the route. But the reason the communists won there is because they were better at building institutions in places where there were virtually none.

>>2827074
There was another newer thread created, but it got deleted. It had around 60 or so posts last time I saw it.

>>2827077
sometimes that happens if the baker gets banned for spamming and the mods are too lazy to delete posts individually. we used to have this problem a lot. some spammer would show up, bake a new general thread, use that as leverage, start spamming. if the mods call the bluff, the thread gets delete along with his posts. sort of a hostage game. daring the mods to do extra work to avoid deleting a general.

>>2827076
what's interesting about Marx is he lived his entire life and wrote during a period of relative peace in Europe, in terms of great power conflicts. He was born after the Napoleonic wars, but died before WW1. So Europe's century of "Peace" was a century of colonial plunder abroad and class war at home. But Lenin was writing during a completely different period where great power struggle had returned with a vengeance. Between WW2 and our time there was no WW3, but there was a lot of regional conflicts, coups, and proxy wars. But since 2022 it feels like great power conflict has returned, because of Russia/Ukraine.

>>2827080
Even more so with yet another failed US war in the middle east, this time against a much bigger and sophisticated force than Ba’athist Iraq or the Taliban

>>2827072
>I'm really convinced now that you didn't finish reading my post
And I am more convinced you don’t read period.
>changed your tune
>i just stated that the current goal is to build a movement worth calling a movement
<No you didn’t
<You didn’t JUST say that
My response remained consistent, you simply cannot read well. I only slightly emphasized what I was saying and nothing more.
>and then when I repeated that later on you denied I never said that
Things that never happened

>kept harping on what a "doomer" phrase stalin's words are. you keep having to twist yourself into a pretzel to paint me as a doomer when really the original context here was talking about prioritizing leftist infighting and purging the impure at a stage of great weakness and setbacks when perhaps united front tactics are needed against reactionaries. how is that doomer?

<What would happen if capital succeeded in smashing the Republic of Soviets? There would set in an era of the blackest reaction in all the capitalist and colonial countries, the working class and the oppressed peoples would be seized by the throat, the positions of international communism would be lost.
<When the proletarians of the U.S.S.R. consolidate their dictatorship, put an end to economic disruption, develop constructive work and achieve successes in the building of socialism, this is support of the highest value for the proletarians of all countries, for their struggle against capitalism, their struggle for power; because the existence of the Soviet Republic, its steadfastness, its successes on the front of socialist construction, are factors of the highest value for the world revolution, factors that encourage the proletarians of all countries in their struggle against capitalism. It can scarcely be doubted that the destruction of the Soviet Republic would be followed by the blackest and most savage reaction in all capitalist countries.


Seems pretty doomer to me with full context.

>>2827083
we need to build a real movement. that's what i said. it's not doomer. the blackest reaction is a setback. i never said it's over like that other guy did. i keep clarifying what i mean and you keep saying i mean something else. meanwhile you said i didn't say something and i showed you i did say it. you're just being a stubborn asshole on purpose at this point. have a nice weekend.

>>2827087
Between climate change and nuclear war human civilization doesn’t have 100 years to wait for the western working class to form a movement that maybe overthrows its genocidal governments

>>2827087
>we need to build a real movement. that's what i said
That’s only part of what you said.
>i never said it's over like that other guy did
You’re correct. But you’re still so dramatically nostalgic about it. Blackest reaction? Really? Things have always been different flavors of shit. You may not be a complete doomer, but you’re still a low tier nostalgic one.

>>2827093
Correct, that’s what I said

>>2827094
Read it again

wealthy diaspora radlibs will move to a country like America and still speak like they don't have to deal with the implications of being American when they're literally living a more comfortable lifestyle than the majority of people here

>>2827103
The bourgeoisie of all stripes will always pass the bill to the proletariat, including reputation damage

Mr. Wilimos might have a rally in downtown. Like around the discovery place.

Yall dooming again?

Unironically I’ve doubled the cardio I do in a week and it’s really been a boon to my mood; highly recommend.

PAX BURGERICUS… MORTUA EST
IMPERIUM BURGERICUS… MORTUA EST
GLORIA BURGERICUS … MORTUA EST

>>2827142
500 calories /night baybeeeeeeeeee

>>2827092
>You’re correct
i know
>But you’re still so dramatically nostalgic about it.
buddy the conversation started in the previous thread with me saying people shouldn't mechanistically apply the formula of the 1920s comintern to today's politics lol

>>2827142
I shot some cans, that felt nice

>>2827149
based china

honkoid status?

>>2827149
Paranoid and mercury-brained imperialist superpower vs another more sensible imperialist emerging superpower. Jack wilimos in the u.s senate will put socialist common sense in congress.

>>2827150
Nice; I need to take my shotgun out for some shooting again. Lot of the ranges by here have some bad vibes though imo.

>>2827144
Dunno how many calories I’m burning, but I’m trying to do 3 days of resistance with some cardio along with 3 days of dedicated cardio.

>>2827159
I entered a raffle for a shotgun, I hope I win, skeet shooting seems like a lot of fun

are any of y'all associated with the SRA?

>>2827162
Getting into gun clubs is a real easy way to get entrapped by the FBI, no thank you

>>2827163
oof. I always wanted to join, but when you put it like that . . . also I did hear that the SRA was under fbi surveillance back when I tried researching them.
is it really that that hard to build community? like I'm not even talking organized gun clubs, even something like reading groups that engage in community action

>>2827166
Even reading groups are probably FBI honeypots, don’t trust anyone if you’re doing illegal shit or discussing anything subversive

https://crimethinc.com/2026/05/27/to-demand-freedom-the-hunger-strike-at-delaney-hall

Getting worse on the ground, When I was there, 7 ambulances came and left the facility with just people on stretchers. People from outside were calling 911 and they said they would not respond. An hour later finally ambulances came.

A protester was beaten and taken through the gates. They released him about three hours later and that man looked like he saw some shit.

As we know ICE will target anyone at random with multiple people pepper sprayed at said location

>>2827160
Shotguns kick like a mother fucker but they're really fun.

>>2827162
Donated some money to them before, hung out with a guy in their group ages ago, seem like good people but don't know much beyond that.

>>2827180
28s and 410s don’t kick super hard

>>2826934
this is the exact sort of analysis i'd expect from a British "person" and why your entire pedophile island should be nuked into oblivion.

There can be no substantive change without revolution, especially in America. Thinking you can just make the bourgeoisie quietly slink away is incredibly naive at best and intentional wrecking at worst.

>>2827180
It's really unfortunate that you have a gun and won't use it to kill yourself with. But like all reactionaries, you are a coward first and foremost.

>>2827181
Got a 12 gauge myself. Took it to the range once and some boomer joked it sounded like I was firing a bazooka.

>>2827190
What is the reason for such harshness? What do you consider reactionary?

>>2827206
It's just Felix, he'll make accusations of every one being fascists and post gore. Just ignore him.

>>2827206
Myles is an absolute arch-reactionary who tells people to read Mosely and Sorel while he comes up with more excuses to collaborate with American imperialism. He openly wants to use Imperialism as a tool to build up the American homeland at the explicit cost of everyone else alive.

He's an absolute fascist monster and the fact that none of you have hounded him to death, let alone done the deed yourself, is completely unforgivable.

>>2827143
the roman grain dole mostly went to wealthy citizens, and came from breadbasket colonies like egypt. that guy was the original treatler

do you guys know if the FBI or those types of agencies track things like FRT's? I heard the ATF keeps records of silencers and some other types of equipment. what would be the best (legal) way to keep yourself off these kinds of records

>>2827207
What tendency is he anyway? Also campaign updates: Mr. Wilimos officially endorses Maureen Galindo for u.s house.
Mr. Wilimos has a (possibly working) phone number: +1 (712) 206-1188. Please inform us of any technical difficulties and don’t forget to vote Jack wilimos on November 3rd.

>>2826934
Sounds like glowie bullshit. I'm sure many liberal republicans thought liberal capitalism was impossible after the many failures of revolutions in France, in 1848, etc. Should they have just given up and ask for a "slow but less harsh transition"? Ridiculous.

been browsing lemmy for like 2 hours and its crazy to notice that all the quality leftypol users abandoned this place and settled there

>>2827223
proof

>>2827222
I agree, one should not settle for the unequal exchange of social democracy. Which naturally sells out anyway.
Update: Ms. Galindo is welcome to join our party.

>>2827222
glowie bullshit or trvke? it's a good question to ask about whether revolutionary politics (in the most violent, and uprooting sense) is viable at this point, outside the countries in which it is still a viable strategy, though even there it's normally just a liberal democratic revolution

>>2827223
Where did they go? I haven't been that impressed by Lemmy when I looked at it

also liberal republicanism had already been proved successful by 1783, proved again when despite the loss of the french revolution, even bonapartism, most of the region retained liberal capitalism in order to avoid a second revolution, past examples are easy to appeal to but it's pretty much an open question whether violent revolutionism is effective in the 21st century to build socialism

>>2826986
The peak of the male sex are more beautiful/striking than all women but the median woman is more beautiful than the median man. It's not gay to admit such a thing.
Very tiring to have progressive do that lame "lol ur gay" larpy posture though. YOU support gay rights, not them.

>>2827248
Nah women clear on both counts. It's just factual that finding the male form more attractive than the female form is gay, sorry buddy

>>2827222
There's plenty of examples of movements toppling governments without a civil war though

>>2827249
I said beautiful not attractive

>>2827258
same thing

>>2827250
The goal isn't just to topple a government or even all of them, it's to move humanity entirely from one level of economic production and development and social relations to the next, higher one. That's not something that just a simple changing of the guard will tolerate; it will take a fundamental change in the System. The Carnation Revolution, for example, may have changed the government from a dictatorship to a junta to the current republicanism model, but it did nothing about the capitalist foundation. In all cases, the bourgeoisie was dominant.
>>2827231
Liberal republicanism also took hundreds of years (even ignoring its ancient inceptions) to develop and surpass the feudal mode of production. There were many violent clashes to get us to this current stage - the 1642 English Civil War, the Corsican War of Independence, the American and French Revolutions… there was much nonviolence and violence, many attempts and revisions, and long periods of little change punctuated by bursts that gave us the current System. To pretend like revolution is impossible and we can do nothing but wait patiently and beg for reforms until our capitalist vermin masters graciously decide to slowly give us more room to breathe is nothing but another reformist socdem attempt at demoralization.

>>2827281
>The goal isn't just to topple a government or even all of them, it's to move humanity entirely from one level of economic production and development and social relations to the next, higher one. That's not something that just a simple changing of the guard will tolerate; it will take a fundamental change in the System. The Carnation Revolution, for example, may have changed the government from a dictatorship to a junta to the current republicanism model, but it did nothing about the capitalist foundation. In all cases, the bourgeoisie was dominant.
Yeah I'm just saying that it's possible for workers supported by the intelligentsia to win against a government. Take Solidarnosc for example. It basically started as a workers' movement for better conditions, higher wages, etc. and it ended up getting coopted by liberals and the church to topple the "AES" junta and sublate its institutions into a liberal capitalist republic. That's kind of what I think the revolution will look like except with the goal of establishing proletarian republics across the world.

>>2827282
These are two situations that are not entirely congruous. Let us ignore the question of whether "AES" is socialism or not; either way, Solidarity was not attempting the enormous task of a fundamental transformation of the mode and relations of the means of production. As you admit yourself, it started as a movement for better conditions. It wasn't trying to build an entirely new system from scratch. Therefore, it was amenable to co-optation, unlike the demands of socialists under capitalism. Liberal republicanism already existed in the world and had already existed at one point in Poland. Thus, Poland's liberal republican movement's goal was to pressure a government that was already experiencing weakness due to economic problems, declining legitimacy, and reduced backing from the Soviet Union. At the point when Solidarity was created, the PPR was already struggling to govern effectively on its own and thus vulnerable to negotiation.
Capitalists are not willing to negotiate. They hate us. They want 90+% of humanity under their thumb or dead, if they dare to oppose their rule. Not only that, but we face stronger resistance from elites, businesses, governments, and parts of the population all across the world.
Do you think international capitalism is going to allow an international (let alone national, which is straight up impossible) resistance movement to "persuade" them to death? Do you think that even if one country was somehow entirely willing to let their military and police and the rest of their capitalist infrastructure fall under control of the socialists that the rest of the world's capitalists would simply ignore it? Did you forget what happened with Allende? Do you somehow think that if we act gentler, even if that was somehow able to transition us towards socialism, that they simply wouldn't do the same to us? Social democracy is a lie. You cannot "reform" capitalism into socialism.

Where is the Ethiopian anon?

>>2827145
>buddy the conversation started in the previous thread with me saying people shouldn't mechanistically apply the formula of the 1920s comintern to today's politics lol
<Proceeded to do that anyways here
Okay bud

>>2826956
based

>>2826956
>>2827320
Having faith in American politicians is a silly concept

Pedo admin will attack/invade Cuba to distract from this.

the footage come out of these protests is some of the most brutal i've seen since 2020.

https://houdinimagazine.com/articles/2026-05-30-delany-hall-hunger-strike

The overdose that keeps on giving

>>2827259
Not at all

>>2827335
First amendment settlements are the new car accident settlements, fuck I want one

You're ignoring most of the world
Which countries get attention, by the numbers

Of all the resources in the world, there’s a case to be made that attention is the most valuable. No one buys from a business they don’t know exists. No one protests their government about a cause they’ve never heard of. Attention is the prerequisite to action.

Like any valuable resource, one should want attention to be distributed relatively equitably. Unfortunately, that is anything but the case.

Even though a large majority of the world’s population lives in the Global South, in all likelihood these people occupy just a corner of your brain. People from countries like the US and France mingle comfortably in your brain’s chandelier-lit ballroom. People from countries like India and Ethiopia cram into a dimly-lit back room.

I ran the numbers to prove it. Relative to the size of their populations, the New York Times covers developed countries 25 times as much as developing countries. Wikipedia grants them 10 times more attention per person. The same pattern plays out for who you’re likely to meet. Compared to their populations, Italy gets 1400 times more visitors than Bangladesh, and Italians are also 50 times more likely to travel to the US.

Of your thousands and thousands of thoughts per day, the Global South might be lucky to catch a few. For most people in countries like the US, our worldviews are missing most of the world.

Who are the most and least overlooked countries?
Which countries get the least attention relative to their size? Or in other words, which countries should you be thinking about a lot more?

No single metric is a perfect proxy for attention, but as you can see below, I analyzed several: how much countries are covered in the media, attention via Wikipedia and Google, and how much people physically cross paths. Then, I compared these numbers to the size of countries’ populations.

Across these metrics, Bangladesh generally comes out as the country that is most overlooked, closely followed by the DR Congo and Nigeria.

It kind of makes sense. When’s the last time you read an article about Bangladesh or watched a movie set there? I would be very surprised if you’ve ever travelled there. But Bangladesh is a huge country! There are 169 million Bangladeshis, two Bangladeshis for every German.

Other countries are dramatically overlooked, too—including India and China. Yes, the two countries get a lot of attention relative to the average country. But India and China account for one-in-three humans, and they’re not getting anywhere near one-third the attention.

Of the biggest countries, Indonesians and Ethiopians also get little attentional weight, while countries like Chad (more populous than the Netherlands), Malawi (twice the size of Greece), and Madagascar (three times as many people as Sweden) are also stuffed into the recesses of our brains.

And which countries do we spend too much time thinking about? Sorry Europe, but you’re doing a real manspread in our brains over here. Of the big European countries, France, the UK, and Italy get the most attention relative to the size of their population, while the effect is even more extreme for smaller countries like Portugal and Ireland.

Now, I know that there are legitimate questions about how one should allocate attention, and whether my approach here is too simplistic. I promise I’ll get to those, but first let’s look at the numbers.

(A note: I explain my methodology for the charts and statistics in the footnotes all the way at the bottom of this post. I made sure to run some quality control and I’m confident the numbers are in the right ballpark, but you should take them with a grain of salt—you are reading a Substack with a regular dog pic section, not an academic journal.)

Who is the media showing us?
The media is the most traditional arbiter of attention, and no outlet quite captures media priorities like The New York Times. So, when I wanted to see who the media covers and who it doesn’t—without taking on an insane amount of data—I decided to look at how many NYT articles mentioned each country in 2025.1 (I imagine other major media outlets would produce similar results, though not identical.)

What do the numbers show us? The New York Times covers developed countries dramatically more than developing countries. This chart compares how many New York Times articles cover countries in comparison to their populations. (It only shows countries with more than 50 million people.) And indeed, the bars for many lower-income countries are functionally invisible—much like their citizens are to readers of The New York Times.

The ratios are staggering. Overall, when adjusting for population, The New York Times covers developed countries 25 times more than developing countries. This quite clearly skews our understanding of the world.

Imagine you’re in a stadium on a sweltering day, looking up at the stands. Your eyes scroll past an expanse of 25 rows of sweat-drenched fans, before eventually noticing a (presumably air-conditioned) glass box at the top. Imagine a journalist were covering fans’ experience of the game, and they decided to interview two sources: one from those box seats and one from the 25 rows below. It’s very apparent why this would not produce a representative story. But that’s essentially how the media covers the world.

Facile justifications don’t explain the disparities in coverage between richer and poorer countries. It makes sense that an American paper would cover the US much more than other countries, but why should this extend to developed countries more broadly? And it’s not geographical, either. Mexico is twice as populous as Italy and much closer to the US. But guess who gets more coverage in the NYT?

Developing countries are hidden on Wikipedia, too
Wikipedia serves as a fairly good proxy for the amount of information out there about different countries. As it turns out, however much we might think all people have equal worth, we know much more about some groups of people than others.

When you look at how many English-language Wikipedia articles mention each country, developed countries show up far more than developing ones.2 Among countries with more than 50 million people, developed countries are mentioned in nearly 10 times as many Wikipedia articles as their population would suggest. Just look at the chart: high-income countries are shown in green.

Here, too, this goes well beyond a fair reflection of influence and importance. Wikipedia allows us to learn extensively about even small towns in rich countries. Williamston, Michigan, a town of 4,000 people near where I grew up, has a 2,200 word Wikipedia page. But when it comes to Agbon, Benin—the 4,000 person community I lived in for two years—it has no page. The neighboring 20,000+ person town of Gouka has just a 50 word page.

Which countries are we googling?
Let’s put the ball a bit more in our court. New York Times coverage and Wikipedia entries are about what we are shown, but what about what we are seeking out? If normal people had a more holistic view of the world, we’d see them searching for countries on Google at rates closer to those countries’ populations. On the other hand, if most people have a blinkered view of the world that weights people in rich countries far more than people in poor ones, we wouldn’t.

As it turns out, the masses, too, have their eyes on rich countries. While Google search results give developing countries greater attention than Wikipedia and The New York Times, rich countries still take up much more space in Google users’ minds than their share of the global population.3

As you can see in the chart below, India gets significant attention, ranking number one in search interest. But that search interest still isn’t proportionate to the size of its population, and just look at the disparity in search interest between 260 million-person Pakistan and 80 million-person Germany. (Countries are listed in the below chart in order of their population.)

Still, it makes some sense that Google users distribute attention somewhat more evenly than other indicators of attention. You do of course need internet to be able to google, and that rules out some people in poor countries. But you also have plenty of Indians, Brazilians, and the like who are on Google, and they are more interested in their own countries than Global North-based New York Times and Wikipedia. (The fact that Google is blocked in China likely explains China’s low search interest.)

But the above chart shows who Google users worldwide are thinking about. Who are Americans thinking about? Alas, Americans’ attention is far more weighted towards rich countries. For example, Americans google Japan more than India and China, even though each has 10 times as many people as Japan.

Who are we seeing with our own eyes?
All the data I’ve presented so far has been about information we’re getting from a distance: whether we are devoting our attention to a New York Times article about a country, or if we are thinking about a country enough to Google it. But what about the places and people we see directly? The best way for something to get your attention is for it to come right into your line of sight.

Unfortunately, the places and people we see are anything but random. People from rich countries are simply much more likely to end up physically proximate to us.

This works in two directions: first, where we go. If you’re leaving your country to experience the world, there’s a pretty good chance you’re going to explore the rich world.

This chart looks at the ratio between the number of visitors countries receive and their population.4 This ratio largely follows’ countries income levels. Even relatively safe, beautiful Philippines gets one-sixth as many visitors as South Korea, a country with less than half as many people.

What about the other direction of travel—people who come to us? Before Trump, immigrants to the US actually provided a fairly representative sample of the world. Even relative to their share of the global population, the US got slightly more immigrants from developing countries than high-income countries.5 (Though immigration rates are far higher for upper-middle-income countries than lower-middle-income and low-income countries, with the UMIC figures pulled up by Mexico.)

Put together, this makes a lot of sense: people from developing countries have more of an incentive to move to the US than people from developed countries, but their path to a visa is harder and they are less likely to have the means to finance their immigration.

And they are even less likely to get the money or the visa to come to the US just for a visit. When it comes to people traveling to the US, we are dramatically more likely to come into contact with people from rich countries. A person in a high-income country is 10 times more likely to visit the US than someone from a developing country.6 For people from low-income countries, they are 200 times less likely to visit the US than someone from a high-income country.

How should we direct our attention?
To be clear, a rigid one-to-one relationship between attention and population wouldn’t make much sense. On an individual level, it’s ok (indeed, encouraged!) to pay more attention to your family than other people’s families.

And even on an aggregate level, some people and places deserve more attention. The New York Times should cover Israel and Sudan—countries actively at war—more than less eventful Austria and Algeria. Some of France’s disproportionate attention compared to China surely comes from its much better soccer teams. I understand why Aruba gets more tourists than North Macedonia.

And it is just objectively the case that the UK and France have a greater impact on the world than equally populated Tanzania and Myanmar. The UK and France are former colonial powers who now wield UN Security Council vetoes. Understanding the world requires allowing them to take up a larger share of your brain than their share of world’s population.

But where attentional inequalities become a problem is when they reinforce real world inequalities. Attention determines whose needs we prioritize, whose ideas we value, and which opportunities we take.

When Nigeria never enters our minds, it means we aren’t thinking about what we could do to make life fairer for 230 million people who, right now, tend to face daily hardships we can scarcely imagine. And misdirected attention doesn’t just hurt them—it also hurts us. It means we aren’t thinking about how to build pandemic surveillance systems and responses to climate change that protect Nigerians and Americans alike. It means we’re missing out on business opportunities and catchy songs that would make our lives more prosperous and more fun.

One doesn’t have to think that we should pay as much attention to Egypt as Germany to think that the gap should be a whole lot smaller. This won’t happen without some effort: following inertia will ensure people from richer countries remain far more likely to end up in your consciousness than people from poor countries. The media we consume is skewed towards rich countries, information about them is more easily accessible, and the people we meet are much more likely to come from rich countries.

Despite the challenges, starting to extend your worldview to the world is entirely within reach. Train your brain to remember that your daily experiences are highly unrepresentative of the world, and help make those experiences a bit more balanced.

Read publications that focus on the Global South, like the new magazine Equator (or this friendly neighborhood Substack). Go watch some Bollywood or Nollywood. Or maybe you could even take your next trip to Sri Lanka or Ghana. That doesn’t look so bad, does it?

https://timhirschelburns.substack.com/p/youre-ignoring-most-of-the-world

>>2827346
remember when you fags assured me they'd be fleeing to New Zealand?

>>2827349
No

>>2827350
I didn't

If I get a billion dollars it’s Cape Verde for me, it’s everything good about the Caribbean but without ever getting devastated by hurricanes