One of the most hollowing things about being a leftoid is just how much bad behavior is automatically given to you just because you want to live in a world where people don't starve or whatever and there could be more free time to do well whatever the fuck uyghas want to do. Yet leftoids are said to always have these Dysgenetic traits while rightiods get to portray themselves as the yes chad and we get saddled with soyjaks and shit. Even people who are just vaguely sympathetic to our cause is also getting that treatment and other such shit. "Conservatives/Chuds are the real punk rock/edgelords/contrarians" "Conservatives/Chuds are the real tolerant people", "Conservatives are all fit" yet if you ever bring up rural/urban obesity rates or notice how fucking ugly, the very obvious gap in autism score s between rightiods and leftoids, how much social conservatives have larger amygladas (Thus they feel fear and disgust more, not very stoic of them), how they think they can't even win a fight against DONALD TRUMP or even worse MID LOOKING all these rightiod look like and yet you still have vtubers and shit saying they want to be impregnated by Asmongold!
Being a leftoid is basically having no fucking ego defense and you have to be much more fit, intelligent and other such qualities to get ass while centroid/chud men get it easier despite them not even needing to be HALF of any of things we have to do.
>>2829222culture war shit
>>2829222nobody thinks all those good things about conservatives except conservatives.
>>2829228Really? How come the right meme exists then?
>>2829225More like worry over our optics.
>>2829305
It's only now that "tr*nny side" is considered bad, and "Epstein side" is considered good legitimate.
I remember the commies writing something about a culture war in the last century - well, we only lost it because the bourgeoisie took over. LGBT is now idpol, feminism is sexist, and anti-racism movements are barbarians and vandals.
>>2829305
>they're only 1% of the population and therefore aren't that important
>but also hitching your wagon to them ruins everything else you stand for
pick 1 or maybe stop having trans derangement syndrome, inb4 you accuse me of being trans, i'm not. i'm actually a regular guy with a family. i just think it's really gay and retarded that you perpetuate this narrative
>>2829322>considered good legitimate.Fixed
>>2829322Cultural legitimacy is extremely valuable and the left took it for granted. Admittedly it was deliberately steered away from certain issues (economics and Palestine) into harmless time sinks like trans rights by the regime.
But the left became extremely dogmatic and obsessive about this issue that was rightly extremely marginal just a generation ago.
>>2829333So trans rights are a distraction, but the deserted shithole is the number two problem after the economy?
Also, you can't rely on economics alone anymore; the workers' situation is too good now, and a revolution on this basis is impossible (at least in first-world countries; the third world still suffers from unbearable economic conditions, which can be turned into a revolution with a couple of PMCs and a million dollars).
>>2829347It's not about problems retard, it's about what the regime will allow the masses a say over. Clearly economic policy and Pissrael are non-negotiable in that regard and are totally dictated by the donor class on both sides.
>>2829225culture war shit is all that's left. People don't actually give a shit about economics
>>2829305Too much of an autism score filter to ditch trans people. Like sure it would probably attract more people if we stopped caring about trans people but also if trans stuff is stopping you from being a leftist you're an incredibly stupid person and I think you'd be more of a liability to our movement than anything.
>>2829409It's less about trans stuff specifically and more the predominence of it in leftwing politics, especially in America, when you're in a shitty economical situation and all the democrats have to sell you is "trans rights" when they're very unpopular ideas. I'm not shocked people are going to support the republicans who at least try to talk to the average person.
idk I never met this would-be-leftist turned right because of trans issues, it seems it only exists on the internet and in the heads of some people, i did however meet rightists claiming to be "economically left culturally right" and I don't this we should appease these people in the movement
>>2829516"economically left, culturally right" is the most popular position even if very much underepresented politically. People like left wing economics but generally dislike social liberalism.
But I'm more talking about relatively apolitical people who only care every few elections. If you want to win elections, you need to convince people.
See it from their perspective, the last few years their personal situation has been getting worse, so they want awnser from politicians, on one hand you have a party telling them everything is fine economically, and focusing on 1% of the population and pushing foward unpopulat policies for them, on the other hand you have a party telling them that it's because immigrants have been stealing their jobs, because the other party is incompetent, etc…
If you don't know shit about politics, who are you going to vote for ?
>>2829520>"economically left, culturally right" is the most popular position even if very much underepresented politically. People like left wing economics but generally dislike social liberalismI think that's a partly myth and you say it like it has never been tried. The BSW in Germany, Katter's Australia and the KSČM in the Czech Republic have all tried that shtick and failed miserably. The problem is that when people cast a protest "anti-system" vote they just go for the original right-wing populists and they generally feel that this is biggest middle finger to an establishment that is perceived as very left-wing - an attribute a "culturally conservative but economically right wing" party still has to associate with somewhat.
It doesn't help that the rest of the left calls these parties fascist, so they have to draw support exclusively from the right. Most right wing voters also view the cultural politics (migration, etc.) as the cause of the economic problems (you can't have healthcare with migration etc.).
Plus the China boogeyman which is non-negotiable for many right-wingers.
>>2829535*culturally conservative and economically left wing of course
>>2829222Richard Hanania is good on this.
https://www.richardhanania.com/p/liberals-read-conservatives-watchhttps://www.richardhanania.com/p/why-is-everything-liberalThe point really needs to be hammered home that rightists are retards with defective personalities, and ideally one would seek common cause with libertarian/neoliberal types on the principle of disenfranchising such people. (Not literally taking their votes away, but setting up institutions in such a way that they're impervious to assault by idiots.) The alternative is open barbarism, which is always and everywhere the preference of the global rightoid movement. (One grand irony is that while they consider themselves nationalist, almost every "right-populist" movement is the same while almost every country's left is sui-generis…)
>>2829305Wrong. The rise of transgenderism is basically rooted in technological changes that cannot be stopped without extreme cost (glibly: the internet lowers the social cost of transitioning, raises awareness of how to do it, and facilitates working around any attempt to legally prevent it.) which all but guarante that in the long run society is just going to have to accept it.
>>2829333The way you slap "Palestine" on there is so slapdash as to be embarrassing. Yes, the reason the average leftist basically ignored Palestine in 2010 is because in 4 years they were going to get really invested in Trans issues. The approximate peak of mainstream liberal concern for trans issues in 2017-20 before the current reactionary tilt could've totally been about Palestine but for those dastardly transhumanists. Shut the fuck up, idiot.
>>2829351The regime doesn't let the masses have a say over anything. Public opinion to a high extent flows from the regime, which is one reason that rightoids are retarded. (They actually fall for it while high-education left-liberals ignore it. See Jeremy Corbyn: degree-educated people voted Labour in 1997-landslide numbers in 2019 because they were smart enough to put ideology over smears, but uneducated people swung right because they were dumb enough to listen to the press's lies.)
>>2829515There is no such thing as the average person. The average person is an abstraction that kind-of-sort-of proxied the median TV viewer back in an age of coherent mass media, but in the internet age there is no such thing. "Average person" thinking is the kind of thing that gets you Kamala chasing Republican endorsements in the assumption that there's a "middle ground" you can move to, Starmer trying to ape Reform in the assumption that the average voter is a sort of half-educated half-racist half-socdem Blairite rather than facing the reality that the country is more or less split down the middle between young people and degree holders on the one side, and older people and the uneducated on the other, and that any move to appease one will piss off the other.
>>2829520It's the most popular position in theory but it's a joke position in reality. Anyone who'll vote against left-wing economics because of social issues doesn't really care about left-wing economics and anyone who'll vote against socially conservative positions in pursuit of left-wing economics doesn't really care about their socially conservative positions. When you try to chase these people it has the net effect of alienating everyone.
>>2829535The rest of the left is basically correct to call these parties right-wing. I hate to be glib but: Leftism is basically an ideology of non-idiots, and cultural conservatism proxies being an idiot world wide.
This wasn't always the case, sure. Education used to correlate with economic position more strongly, so you got a nice curve between "uneducated poor leftists" and "educated rich rightists", but the mass expansion of higher education and its increased accessibility (thank you, third way neoliberals! sincerely!) has flipped this curve: now rightists are still wealthy but under-educated (your "skip uni, start a small business" type + your "i've got my fat pension" old reactionary + a handful of lumpen) and leftists are underpaid and over-educated. (your "i studied English Literature in the expectation i'd still enjoy a standard of living comparable to my parents" archetype + public sector workforce, administrators, people who don't want to think of themselves as sociopaths, etc.)
>>2829520>economically left, culturally rightis a stupid line to tow,if the people want to vote for anti-immigration,they laser focus on that and vote for the most turbo right-wingers,instead of the limp dicked "leftists" that pretend for votes and everybody knows they're just doing an electoral move and don't expect it to be respected once elected
>>2829545Rowling is a bad example. Rowling is a Blairite which, for non UK-readers, is a type of
conservative. Even before she was famous for being anti-trans (in a certain sense gratifying because it meant American liberals could finally see she wasn't a friend) she was anti-Corbyn and anti-Palestine. This was written in 2016
https://samkriss.com/2016/09/13/jk-rowling-and-the-cauldron-of-discourse/ and picrel is of a similar vintage.
Insofar as she's a feminist, she's a feminist of the "let me into the Garrick Club" type.
>>2829535You're right in terms of political parties, but I meant more in terms of policies, polling regularly show that left wing economical policies are broadly popular, while social ones are controversial.
There was been a weakening of protest votes for far right parties these last few years, notably France, as the protest votes have been replaced by regular right wing voters. But you'll notice that even the populist right winger claim to support left wing politics, simply that its because of immigration that they can't do it, this appeals to the economically left, socially right voters. People don't trust left wing parties to enact left wing economic reforms, because the left hasn't tried to do this in years.
>>2829542Kamala Harris failed exacly because she believed she tried to appeal to right economically and left wing socially voters, anti-trump republicans who view trump as being too extreme, neoconservatives. The People I'm talking about is a whole other group, think of Bernie->Trump voters or Obama-> Trump voters, Kamala didn't even try appealing to them, prefering to lie about the economic situation. Kamala's campaign in general was just fucked tho, you can't win after having lied for years about Biden being senile.
More generally, as the left has given up on economic reforms due to being controlled by privileged degree holders who fundamentally believe in the end of history, this has only let the culture war as the only battle left, and while the left started off winning it, now they're losing for a variety of different reasons, but mostly because it's not improving things for the majority and because it became more and more focused on smaller causes. What the left needs to do is to focus on economics again (not necessarly become socially conservative, simply become like it was prior to May 68, tolerant but not centered), but it can't as long as its owned and controlled by the the petit bourgeois.
>>2829550You are overthinking my point. Rowling think trans are privileged white male who want to opress multiracial women with their white male aura. That is fact.
>>2829542>now rightists are still wealthy but under-educated (your "skip uni, start a small business" type + your "i've got my fat pension" old reactionary + a handful of lumpen) and leftists are underpaid and over-educated. (your "i studied English Literature in the expectation i'd still enjoy a standard of living comparable to my parents" archetypeEver wondered why that is? I think we need more entrepreneurship on the left, and less going into the institutions. Going through the indoctrination machine of the bourgeois state is not preferable than being an independent small business chud
>>2829352>It's a miracle Mamdani won after humiliating himself at the weight lifting attempt. There's a funny right-wing conspiracy theory that he failed on purpose by showing he needed help to appeal to weak girly men who want the government to assist them.
>Platner is traditional masculine, he loves killing and torture, but everyone assumes he's a secret Zio so he doesn't count I guess.The whole thing that Planter WANTED to kill people is a recurrent theme for people who don't like him for different reasons. It's like, oh my God, that's just like, wrong. You can't just think that. You can vote for killing people, actually we should vote for politicians who do, and not him. Nobody here has ever had those feelings either I'm sure. I would NEVER ever think that because I'm a good person.
>>2829542>Wrong. The rise of transgenderism is basically rooted in technological changes that cannot be stopped without extreme cost Trvth
>>2829542>It's the most popular position in theory but it's a joke position in reality. Anyone who'll vote against left-wing economics because of social issues doesn't really care about left-wing economics and anyone who'll vote against socially conservative positions in pursuit of left-wing economics doesn't really care about their socially conservative positions. Ultimately it probably just comes down to status. That's what that social stuff is really about. I see rightoids complain about losing the "culture" because there is no trad town to move to, the girl at the Dollar General is trans and poor. It's icky. Wow gee the aristocracy which they're romanticizing was only ever 1-3% of the population anywhere ever and everyone else were barbarians.
>>2829352>but everyone assumes he's a secret ZioThis doesnt really work anymore though the people that you're seeing doing this are hasbara bots and few brown guys on twitter.
>>2829568>I see rightoids complain about losing the "culture" because there is no trad town to move to, the girl at the Dollar General is trans and poorLol i think we saw the same xeet. But for the last part, i have remarked these guys canonise any random fat hick under 45 with dyed hair they see as trans in order to push an agenda among their dwindling "EHC tech right" audience, when most of these people are MAGA now.
Pre 2024 these guys would xost endlessly about trans actually all being privileged cosmopolitans stealing the rural whites money or wathever. Very transparant hasbara going on.
>>2829888So we should have just let even more people die instead?
>>2829888>pharmaceutical monopoly capital in forcing an untested experimental drug into your body four times, organized by a cabal that later turned out to be a network of pedophiles?They also tell us that lead paint is bad too, so that must mean it's good!
>>2829891"We" already implies that there is a common interest between the ruling class and the working classes. Funny that this argument is never made when it comes to "humanitarian interventions" by Western powers.
>>2829520>>2829535ShoeOnHead is like the poster woman for "Economically left, culturally right" people and they always just go right in the end. To some degree being a pure rightiod is seen as cringe, but only because a lot of chuds give off cuck vibes.
>>2829895>"We" already implies that there is a common interest between the ruling class and the working classes.to the extent that neither want to get sick and die, kinda
>>2829222It's 100% astroturfed propaganda.
Leftists who help promote it are useful idiots. Essentially victim blaming.
We should be focusing on structural (capitalist) opposition to socialism, not the individual faults of internet leftists.
>>2829325>they're only 1% of the population and therefore aren't that important>but also hitching your wagon to them ruins everything else you stand for>pick 1why pick 1 if they're both true? its true transhumanists aren't a big deal, atleast until they're swinging their pps in the ladies locker room anyway, then it very suddenly becomes a very big deal for like nearly every women and working class person on the planet. The two points aren't mutually exclusive
>>2829305>>2830152You are on the side of billionaire pedophiles, don't fucking talk about the working class ever again you disgusting subhuman.
>>2829325Both points are true. Trans people are a tiny minority that largely irrelevant, but a lot of people are straight up disgusted by them, so protecting them gets you on the bad side of most of society.
>>2830712If they were actually irrelevant there couldnt be a transcontinental culture war over them. This is always embarassing when pro-trans or anti-trans or even trans-neutral say this in order to push wathever agenda they have. You cannot be the center of everyones attention from New York City to a decrepit town in rural Hungary and be "irrelevant".
And why did the mods delete my post itt over "bait"? There was no joke or trolling here.
>>2829893Lead paint protects us from 5G thats why it is banned.
Also to expand on OPs point. The collective organic decision all left of center movement/personnalities did in the 2010 or not appearing on reactionaries medias and to never debate directly reactionaries turned out to be a complete disaster. It made us look like pussies at worst or a weird sneering eggheads clique at best.
It's only good to withold when your top guy available is a mental cripple or have personality issues. Otherwise most appearances do not hurt even when the debate is "lost".
It was beyond frustrating to have leftists jumping at your throat for going on Rogan debating some conservatard because it would be "platforming them" when they are much more famous than our guys to begin with. A melange of delusion and being a wimp.
uyghas tried to cancel Hasan for going on Piers Morgan.
>>2829542>One grand irony is that while they consider themselves nationalist, almost every "right-populist" movement is the same while almost every country's left is sui-generisWhere do you live that the left isn't Americanized just like the right?
>>2829909That's because being for economically right wing policies as a working class tard is effectively a cuckold position. Most discerning people can tell this hence the ones who care about being seen as "uncucked" the most tend to be le economically left but based conservative.
Nevertheless right wing propaganda will always be 10 times stronger than left wing so these people naturally drift over full rightoid territory everytime.
Doesn't help that baizuos have a tendency to be very emotionally and vocally invested in wokescolding this exact type of individual to a particularly odious degree.
>>2830741Debating a right-winger is pointless because the right wing just want legitimacy for their ideas and for their ideas to be placed on the same pedestal as left-wing thought. It's like how scientists tried to debate creationists.
t. vid related
>>2831421Right-wingers and religious fundamentalists don't want to learn, they want to LOOK like they want to learn for rhetorical clout. It gives them cultural buying power in the "marketplace of ideas", when their ideas themselves don't actually have value. Much like real markets, the "idea" version is just as foundationally corruptible with dirty tricks and large scale manipulation. It's a grift. A con. A combative game where the goal is to win, not discover or reinforce truth through crucible.
They are all guilty of this. No exceptions.
>>2829352
>It's a miracle Mamdani won after humiliating himself at the weight lifting attemptIs it though? People in this thread are assuming some macho candidate is needed to get votes and when that is proven wrong they are shocked, the reality is voters want a candidate with good policies who isn’t a rapist or mafioso like his opponents. Also let’s not pretend Adam’s or cuomo could outlift Zohran, we both know that’s not true, and the fact they never but themselves on a bench in a position where they could embarrass themselves is part of the reason they aren’t popular.
>Platner is traditional masculine. he loves killing and torture.And traditional family values liking cheating on his wife lol. I don’t think you know what traditional masculinity is. Is he masculine? Sure, but that doesn’t necessarily equal traditionally masculine. you see a slightly buff guy(that is, buff for politician standards, if you compare him to the general population he’s not that impressive) with a beard and write some gay love story about “muh freaking traditional masculirenos!”, save us the bore, seriously.
>Hasan is metrosexualYeah you’re definitely a xillennial if you think that’s contradictory to being masculine. No one under the age of 40 thinks a guy like Hasan who unironically looks like the Gigachad meme is not masculine because he paints his nails or whatever.
Metrosexuals like Prince, Bowie, Beckham, Harry styles and whichever male k pop star has recently been artificially generated by the record labels have been fawned over by women for years. You don’t have to like it but if you can’t expect that being a bit gay gets you pussy then there might be no saving you. It’s a metrosexuals world, you’re just living in it.
>only group on the left considered masculine are black dudesYeah I’m sorry but that’s gay. It’s gay that you just said that.
>>2829347>So trans rights are a distractionYes, it's the most retarded issue that concerns less than 1% of the population. It's also very stupid too, everybody knows that the trans community is not "clean" but there's a collective denial about it because most people rightfully support their right to exist
>but the deserted shitholeYes anon, the global zionist movement and its infiltration coming out to light is indeed more important than having the right to pick "they/them" on your ID card. The thing with Palestine is that it's more than a simple genocide, it's a pivotal moment where we can finally denounce Israel and make all of their atrocities come to light. It's literally one of the most decisive issue within the immigrant community, it's impossible to ignore it because of how deep it is.
To give you a comparison, the sudanese civil war hasn't brought much traction – but it's precisely because nobody is linked to either side. Our politicians are not embezzled with the RTF, there's no substantial sudanese community here, Sudan collapsing does not represent a pivotal moment in middle eastern imperialism (albeit it is important because of the gulf nations' involvement in it but I digress)
>you can't rely on economics aloneTrump won 2024 literally because he managed to convince people that his retarded tariffs would make the economy better. This is despite very marginal economic turbulence in comparison to the 08 crisis or previous econ crisis. So, yes, economics are indeed very important
>>2829222left wing people do fine getting relationships. they have advantages in that they can actually see the other person as a person and approach their partnership as an agreement between equals which is something right wing men and women struggle with fundamentally, to the point that it drives them up the wall.
>>2831421>>2831431All leftoid debate boils down to screaming that everyone not supporting the latest version of fully automated gay space communism is a heckin Hitler.
>>2832057you forgot the gigafly gif
>>2831263Most countries. There is no global left-wing cult figure that they all suck off the way that there is a global right-wing cult figure in Trump. It helps that leftism has a soft, slightly culturally elitist anti-Americanism even within the US itself.
The "Americanization" of the left takes the form of being a click woker on racial issues than the status-quo ante, the "Americanization" of the global right often entails the wholesale destruction of domestic right-wing traditions. (e.g. look at the shift from the genteel elitism of the Tory party in Britain to the low-brow ctrl+c ctrl+v DOGE Trumpslop of Reform UK, which is yankified even compared to UKIP in 2015.)
>>2832057They're not wrong to do so. Either you can keep up with progress or you can't. Either you're dispositionally inclined to support radical social change and dispositionally nice enough to want it to be for the better, or you're not.
(You can be neutral or fudge the difference or some other trick if you object to specifics but not the direction of the wider thing, but nobody ever really conceals their "side" this way.)
>>2829303How is that right meme saying rightoids are cool? He's an ugly ogre, it's just making fun of women with fash boyfriends
>>2832140to be fair, given the current dating climate in most first world countries, just having a gf as a moid does indeed make you look like gigachad by default for most other young guys
>>2832180
>There are ≈25 million trans people in the world, and ≈5 million Palestinians
Yes and there is 300 million homeless people so should we talk 10 times about homelessness worldwide ?
>You're just a hypocritical pisslamist
No but it's funny that this is the first thing you jump to. This is exactly what I mean when I say that the trans community is not "clean". Instead of just advocating normally for your rights, like most other groups do, you somehow magically always end up exhibiting the most antisocial behavior.
>You say it like it's impossible to talk about two things at once
I'm not saying this, I'm saying that it disproportionally got attention circa 2016 in comparison to other subjects when it is a relatively minor subject. You're the one that has a perception problem if you think that trans rights are more important than the "deserted shithole" as you name it.
>the Republicans have been waging a massive culture war on the entire world since 2016
This doesn't capture everything. The culture war was only initiated because political figures like Bannon realized the potential that they could get from disenfranchized zoomers. It didn't spawn in magically, it was a reaction to the constant moral dominion that the left had an almost complete monopoly on.
I remember it very well too, I was starting college back then and you could literally not talk about immigration back then, it was as taboo as bioessentialism now
The only aspect of "leftism" that does suck are the retarded cyclists that advocate for their silly little toys to be used on public roads, god damn cyclists are such sub humans
>>2832405die cager, you don't belong in this world
I agree with you that bicycles don't belong in the road with the psychopaths though, I ride on the pavement
>>2832394
>Yes
>but the suffering of 3.5 sanduyghurs on the other side of the world is a problem?
It's funny because you're trans and got emotional that people didn't take your issues as important as other political topics.
To explain this gap, instead of focusing on why people take interest in political subjects in the first place, you try to rationalize this by supposing that we should judge the political importance of a thing by the number of people it concerns. This is simply not the case.
>transgender issues are unimportant because there are so few transgender people
How convenient that I already adressed this
<I'm not saying this, I'm saying that it disproportionally got attention circa 2016 in comparison to other subjects when it is a relatively minor subject
>That's literally a lie you heard from some populist YTbers
Do we need to take out the mcdonalds "black trans are dying because of your silence" ad ? I mean ffs you can go to college and see this firsthand. There's no need to deny that a section of the left has been enforcing cultural norms that most of the population is alien to.
>Why did le heckin soy wikipedia promote Richard Lynn's racist autism score researches?
Reality denial at its finest
Oh look, another horseshit thread
My Althusser thread gets zero responses, along with my Kautsky one. But this fucking attracts the crem de la crem of leftypol like flies to shit
>>2832421I'm sorry anon, people prefer an easy thread they can just rant about than something complicated
>>2832421Did you post it on /edu/ ?
>>2829516Your personal experience is pointless because I've met manywho went right wing do to the obsession with social issues.
>>2829535>I think that's a partly myth and you say it like it has never been tried. The BSW in Germany, Katter's Australia and the KSČM in the Czech Republic have all tried that shtick and failed miserably.All socialist states had parties that pushed for class struggle as a major priority. Albeit they were not pushing for conservatism
>>2832418>To explain this gap, instead of focusing on why people take interest in political subjects in the first place, you try to rationalize this by supposing that we should judge the political importance of a thing by the number of people it concerns. This is simply not the case.Geeee I wonder who started this?
>>2832030<Yes, it's the most retarded issue that concerns less than 1% of the population.>I mean ffs you can go to college and see this firsthand.You mean if I go to college and start yelling about transhumanists and the autism score of negroes, I'll get kicked out? I think that's normal.
>Reality denial at its finestLiterally the first result on Google. All the Nazis on the internet spam this exact image.
>>2832030>everybody knows that the trans community is not "clean"What does this even mean?
>most people rightfully support their right to existWhat fucking drugs are you on? This was *maybe* true a decade or so ago but that was before a bunch of fascists bought up all the social and otherwise media to push anti-trans propoganda 24/7. Hell, this very fucking thread is BRIMMING with grifters trying to convince everyone that actually all their problems are somehow the fault of a tiny powerless minority. Please get your head out of your literal ass and pay attention to the real world.
>>2832409I celebrate when cyclistss get run over
>>2832449The academics are the ones that started to talk about trans stuff in the first place, the ideological basis of the majority of the modern trans movement (That trans women are litterally women and that it's a reflexion of an inner self) is based on the work of academics. I don't see in what world you can't talk about trans stuff in the academia.
>>2832484Muh clean transmacht
>>2832560Yeah you and 80% of motorists, you're not special
>>2832567Trans stuff came to prominence because the number of trans people started increasing. (Because the internet turned it from actual social suicide to merely socially awkward) Academics were prattling for decades to no effect, but the correlation with the rise of social media is almost absolute. I'd even go further and emphasize the correlation with the move from Tumblr to twitter, which put trans people in contact with British journalists used to closing ranks around one another after (say) hounding a transgender teacher to her grave or casually joking about ladyboys, only to be told by uppity oiks to be quiet.
(This is the same phenomenon as Corbyn derangement syndrome. British journalists didn't expect and still cannot handle being talked back to by prolecattle!)
>>2832573I'd say it's both the Internet and the gay rights movement that increased initial social liberalism that allowed the trans movement to rise.
But it never had to take the face it has now, historically, it's transmedicalism that was in the forefront, the idea being that it was a sickness where transition was the cure.
It's the academics that proposed another vision thats the ones that currently championned by trans activists, with trans people being litterally of the gender they desire to be as it's a self realisation.
I don't think a class analysis really fits here, British journalists are generally from the same social class as the most prominent trans activists but they don't like them very much. And you've got plenty of working class people who are transphobic as well. It's different then Corbyn in the sense that trans activism doesn't entail any major economical changes, the bourgeois aren't getting hurt by it.
I also don't think blaming British journalists for the reaction we're seeing now is fair, this is a western wide phenomenon, if I had a find reasons, i'd say it's part of a larger victory of the right in general, but it's solely that since there isn't such a backlash for gay rights. The worsening material conditions also make trans activism often feel very out of touch, why care about pronouns when i'm struggling. (It doesn't correspond to reality of trans people who are generally poorer then the average) I also think the change from a medical perspective to a political one allowed for opposition to organise itself as well.
It's easier to convince someone that it's fine to transition because the people are sick and need it, then to convince someone it's because they've been women or men internally. It presupposes a lot of assumption that a lot of people don't agree with for various reasons.
And in concrete terms, it also implies social changes that people don't agree with.
>>2829333>harmless time sinks like trans rightsTakes like these are the reason this site has less than 80 users
>>2832662How ? Trans right concern 1% of the population, if people are leaving the site over fairly midl disagreements, then this site was never going to be popular in the first place.
Even then, the general population, including the youth isn't particularly interested in the issue, and if anything opposes a lot of demands of trans activists.
It is wild all the trans rights activists made trans peoples lives worse.
Its cruelly comical.
>>2832667A good chunk of urban zoomers and millenials know a transhumanist at this point. On the progressive side of it, the issue wouldn't sustain itself or get taken up by ngos if these people didn't to some extent care about the rights of their friends and family members to get healthcare, be treated with dignity, not segregated or shipped off to mental wards etc.
>>2832671Yet youth support for trans rights have been decreasing, in spite of increased support amongst the youth for other left wing policies (In the UK)
The issue isn't sustaining itself, the mouvement is dying off and the left in general in general is moving more toward bread and butter issues. I don't see why letting people on this website be critical of the trans right movement is necessarly hindering the amount of users it has.
Not that I advocate for it, but you'll find plenty of very hateful websites with a large userbase.
>>2832678The entire media apparatus in the UK is TERF occupied, not a representative example.
>>2832678Damn that sucks.
This is why the left needs to focus on material and class issues not the hottest culture war clash.
>>2832681Easy to say but hard in practice, should we just do nothing while trans rights are rolled back?
>>2832683We do nothing about every other issue so why not this one too
>>2832684Well, maybe you do.
>>2832685Has the western "left" ever had any victories?
The western "left" doesnt do anything besides post on social media.
>>2832684what do we "do" about this that isn't done for everything else?
>>2832679The USA has also seen a decline in support for trans rights, but I couldn't find specific for the youth.
however trans rights was the least important issue during the 2024 election.
the decline of support for trans rights is global, the UK is only a part of it.
Consider also that most British youth don't inform themselves with British media, but rather online.
>>2832689The dems all had a sharper drop in support than anyone else.
Vote blue no matter idpol folks plz explain
>>2832687Well, I tried to organise in Your Party to make it not trash, unfortunately it failed, but I did in fact leave the house, get involved in election campaigning, etc. Speak for yourself.
>>2832689What happens online is largely downstream of traditional mass media. But sure, fine, I accept the point that trans rights aren't the most important issue for most people, but that doesn't mean we can just concede on it. I mean if for some reason the government suddenly decided to launch a massive hate campaign against Albanians in particular and starts legislating against them, arresting them for no reason, etc, should we say nothing because only a small part of the public are Albanian? If you have principles you need to stand for them.
>>2832704There was a fine line between opposing discrimination against transgender people and adopting the maximalist demands of trans activists. In my opinion, tactically, some sort a moderate Transmedicalism would have worked better, you put in places laws to avoid discrimnation based on being trans, you allow adults to transition but you allow certain places (sports, rape shelters, etc…) to discriminate on the basis of birth sex. And not expect people to consider trans people to be litterally the gender they desire to be. This is just confusing for most people, and just serves as easy arguments for the opposition.
To give the equivalent to your Albanian scenario, the equivalent would be opposing discrimination against Albanians without embracing Albanian irredentism and claiming that Kosovo is Albanian. You can think this, but radical albanian nationalism won't be a popular positin.
>>2832730Thats a good point.
Im gonna start calling trans activists in the west Trans Nationalists from now on.
>>2832730Your proposal would've been a regression on the law as it actually existed in Britain until the supreme court decided to re-write it unilaterally. Trans women with a GRC (admittedly a very small group) were legally indistinguishable from any other kind of woman. A GRC changed your sex for all legal purposes, and discrimination by service providers would be inherently nonsensical as well as unlawful. Now, you may think that's a giant leap too far - but nobody of any importance was saying as much in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014… (And in other countries like Ireland, the law went even further, like adopting Self ID.)
You cite Albania, but a much better example would be an argument over who rightfully controls Nagorno-Karabakh. Even if we grant that you are in some plabeautiful lady😍🥰ic sense correct about the optimal compromise position we should've arrived at, you're left with the problem of not really engaging with the massive regression that has occurred from the
status quo ante. "Maybe Artsakh should accept being part of Azerbaijan in exchange for aubeautiful lady😍🥰omy? Or even just people being allowed to stay living there?" is now an Artsakh irredentist position!
For American Anons: I must explain the supreme court ruling: in 2004 Parliament passed the GRA2004 because the ECHR found the UK was breaching human rights law by not having any legal means for trans* people to change their sex.
The GRA2004 said that after going through some humiliation rituals a transgender person would be given a gender recognition certificate, which would change one's sex for
all legal purposes, including giving the explicit example of making a trans-woman eligible to sue for employment discrimination under the Sex Discrimination Act 1972. (This will matter later.)
In 2010 the Equality Act 2010 was passed, with protection for both sex and gender reassignment. At no point did it say anything about excluding or repealing the GRA2004 from its definition of a woman. Legal opinion until 2025 was that a trans woman with a GRC is, thus, a woman for all legal purposes, per the GRA2004. Other trans women technically didn't have that, but there was a presumption in favour of inclusion to avoid discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment.
The supreme court decided this wasn't true, citing the "biological" definition of sex in the SDA1972 [which the EA2010 explicitly repealed and which obviously made no reference to the GRA2004 because it predated it by 32 years] to invalidate the GRA2004 [which the EA2010 did
not repeal and which
did update the SDA1972 in the explanatory notes].
Well, so what? Isn't that what Supreme Courts do?
no, they do so in the US where there is a legal separation of powers, but in Britain parliament is sovereign. The domestic courts may interpret the law, but they
cannot re-write laws passed by parliament as they please. Only parliament can do that! The court's action here was an unconstitutional power grab and they got away with it because
that is how trans-deranged the UK has become. So long as you explain that your reasoning is "fuck transhumanists", you can get away with anything.
A coda:
in 2023 the government veto'ed a piece of Scottish parliament legislation intended to make it easier to get a GRC on the grounds that, because of the GRA2004, it would infringe on the EA2010 and so step on the UK parliament's toes. They got away with this even though - per the court's subsequent judgement - the GRA2004 does not apply to the EA2010, meaning this supposed conflict doesn't actually exist. Why? if you're wondering why, you weren't listening: the answer is always "fuck transhumanists", only then do you decide what the question is. The precedent thus established, a Scottish scheme to recycle bottles was also vetoed, utterly poisoning the well of the UK's devolution settlement for Scotland and Wales. The UK will actively tear itself apart before giving trans women the same rights they enjoyed just 5 years ago. >>2832749lol who made "t ono" a wordfilter.
>>2832730>you allow adults to transition but you allow certain places (sports, rape shelters, etc…) to discriminate on the basis of birth sex.Yes treating a group of people as second class citizens and refusing to protect them from the extremely high amount of abuse they face because liberals don't like them is very based and anti-capitalist wow thank you grifter-kun I see the light now! I'm so glad we put aside our differences and let the Epstein-class continue raping transhumanists without any resistance!
>And not expect people to consider trans people to be litterally the gender they desire to be. Yes you're totally right we here at leftypol hate science and love basing our worldview on religious fabrications of how biology works, you definitely cannot change your sex in any way and the caste you're assigned into at birth should dictate your entire life, just like the revolutionaries wanted!
I'm so glad the U.K. is refusing to give transhumanists breast cancer screenings, since they're not REALLY women and the increased risk of breast cancer is all in their heads! Calling it state-sponsored murder is reductive btw
>>2832751>Yes treating a group of people as second class citizens and refusing to protect them.When did I ever say this ? Just because some rape shelters would be based on sex doesn't mean all would be, just like there should be some for men as well. But you have to protect both cisgender women and trans women.
As for Epstein, he raped cisgender women ? He litterally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, and it just sounds like you're calling me a pedophile for diagreeing with you.
>Yes you're totally right we here at leftypol hate science and love basing our worldview on religious fabrications of how biology works, you definitely cannot change your sex in any way and the caste you're assigned into at birth should dictate your entire life, just like the revolutionaries wanted!Biological sex exists and while you can change secondary sex characteristics
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7846503/ Studies show that despite medical treatement, there still exists a physical difference between trans and cis women. This is mostly important for sports.
There are also concrete material reasons for why socities divide people into men and women (one sex gives birth, the other gives the sperm) even if that model is simplistic. Those reasons are still relevent to this day.
As a general rule, don't try to claim "science" has some sort of objective truth about the world, science has perfecly been wrong in the past, and I doubt that every doctor agrees with you, consider you also pin them as murderers.
>I'm so glad the U.K. is refusing to give transhumanists breast cancer screenings, since they're not REALLY women and the increased risk of breast cancer is all in their heads! Calling it state-sponsored murder is reductive btwCompletly unrelated to anything I said, I don't think doctors should discriminate against trans people. But yes calling it state murder is reductive, plenty of people have died due to shitty medecine, but that doesn't make it murder.
You're smugly and angrily calling me a pedophile and trying to pin for the death of trans women to cancer. Simply because a fairly mild disagreement with you. And then you wonder why support for trans rights are decreasing, to an onlooker with no stakes on the debate, how exacly do you think you sound ?
>>2832756Your problem, anon, is that you're falling into the classical trap of trying to reason up an ideal compromise between two fundamentally antithetical groups. You're like the socdem standing between the communist and the capitalist going "why don't we just be 70s Swedes?"
Insofar as there are concrete reasons for the current sex-segregation, the glib trade off is that you have to abolish them and then rebuild them piecemeal if and when problems come up, or you have to accept handing society over to a gang of deranged losers who want segregation of all types because it means they get to be a small fish in a slightly smaller pond. (this is the fundamental motive of the right the world over: they want to be differentiated from others on the basis of arbitrary characteristics while liberals wish to differentiate people based on
chosen characteristics.) Like the poor socdem, you must choose between revolutionary lunacy or inevitable fascism, despite being far too personally reasonable for either side of the madhouse.
Except on the medical thing. There you're just wrong. If the NHS refuses to provide you necessary care on principle, through legal malice rather than through incompetence, that is obviously murder. The dividing line between murder and manslaughter isn't the killing, it's the intent! >>2832761Going too far on either side would just alienate a chunk of the population tho. This implies that large part of the population agrees with radical policies on either side, but most people agree with something close enough to me, and only side with either radicals based on if they feel like the other side goes to far. It's also not a fundamental issue. It's pointless to needlessly exclude people because they have various opinion on the subject.
You can't really say the same for liberalism vs communism.
It's the question of the complete organisation of everything. It's a fundamental question. I can disagree with someone on trans stuff and still consider myself of the same mouvement, the same can't be done for communism, if someone is a liberal, well he's not a communist. In this view, trans stuff is somewhat of a distraction.
Compromises aren't always the best solution, but they aren't always bad. And even then trans activists has some limit as some point as well.
Also a large difference is that I don't think either side of the trans debate can be satisfied in a realistic way, you can't force people to accept or reject trans stuff.
(from the 5 minutes of research It sounds like if you're registered a woman and over 50 you get called for breast cancer screening, and if you're registered as a man you need to take an appointement, as typically men have lower risks then women to get breast cancer, trans women under estrogen are more likely to get breast cancer then men but less then cis women, I don't think I have seen anyone denied because they were trans. I could be missing something but this doesn't sound like malicious policy)
>>2832949For the USA, this is marked by a decline of the support by republicans, you'll notice that among democrats it stayed relatively the same.
However transgender rights have decline all across the board, all across generations.
You'll also see that trans rights have been declining even in the UK, despite the left being far more popular among the Youth.
As for the Media, while you have anti-trans media, you also have large media in their favor (CNN being the most obvious exemple) you can solely pin this on the media, and if anything people are a lot more exposed to pro trans views recently then they have been historically.
Analysing the flaws of a movement advocating for a group of people, doesn't mean I hate the group of people.
Think about this, if the fascist media was the main reason for the change of opinion on trans stuff, then why is Trump's support declining ?
Because people, while influenced, aren't slaves to the media, and they can create their own opinion based on other things.
So then, clearly the movement is failing to convince people of its righteouness, and if its the case, it should look itself as to why, instead of insulting the people they're supposed to convince.
>>2832449>Geeee I wonder who started this?I mean you did
>I'll get kicked out? I think that's normal.<what if I took the most extreme exampleThe problem is that any example I pick will be deemed anecdotic. But frankly, you should try it yourself. Go to any college and start talking about sensitive topics, not extreme racial nonsense, but any "polarized" theme like immigration or israel and see where it gets you.
>Literally the first result on GoogleAnd ? Am I meant to be surprised that when googling a specific sentence you get a specific result lol ?
>>2832484>What does this even mean?the weird in-group behavior that always spirals out of control, the omnipresence of bizarre sexual fetishes, the constant hypersexualization of everything, the grotesque deformation of symbols associated with feminity/masculinity etc.
It's seldom "I just want to transition, change my name, my pronouns, and my general appearance", it's more often "actually i identify as non-binary homosexual and do drag shows on tuesdays".
Note that all this is essentially a result from in-group behavior which spirals out of control because of the general ostracism that they get. However, if I were to say this to anybody that I know irl on the left, I'd be "cancelled" immediatly.
>What fucking drugs are you on?Sorry I realized that I typed this wrong. What I was trying to say was that majority of left-leaning people support trans' rights but have this collective denial of the aforementionned issues, that feed very well into the conservative culture war.
>>2832751>Yes treating a group of people as second class citizensSorry anon but there is a biological reality to sex. You can whichever gender you use but there is a qualitative difference between the sexs with real implications.
>let the Epstein-class continue raping transhumanists without any resistancePretty much validates everything that was said up until now. You're not the center of attention. You're not the primary contradiction under the capitalist mode of production. You're a tiny speck concerned about identity-recognition. The constant monopolization of the center of attention is why people got annoyed, and why support for your cause has declined.
>>2832756>As for Epstein, he raped cisgender women ? He litterally has nothing to do with what I'm talking aboutHe also raped trans women. One of the first people to publically accuse Epstein was a trans woman, but nobody took her seriously because she was trans. The Epstein Files revealed that him and his ilk were funding the anti-trans movement to discredit trans women so they could continue to rape them without any public backlash. I'm sure you don't actually care but you can read more about all his connections to transphobia here:
https://transnews.network/p/epstein-backed-prominent-anti-trans-figureshttps://www.transgendermap.com/people/jeffrey-epstein/>Studies show that despite medical treatement, there still exists a physical difference between trans and cis women. This is mostly important for sports. The literal fucking Olympics did a study proving that trans women have no biological advantage over cis female athletes (and infact are disadvantaged in most ways). Notice how a trans woman has never won a SINGLE Olympic medal, let alone gold? Hormones change your entire biology, trans women are more biologically female than they are biologically male.
Even if they DID have a small advantage that's not any more justification for banning them than it is for banning especially tall races of people from basketball. It's all the same ridiculous talking points they used to try to ban black people from sports back in the day.
>But yes calling it state murder is reductiveSo all the women dying in the states because they can't access life saving abortion aren't being murdered either I guess? Or does it suddenly count when they're not transhumanists?
>You're smugly and angrily calling me a pedophile and trying to pin for the death of trans women to cancer. Simply because a fairly mild disagreement with you. And then you wonder why support for trans rights are decreasingthe fucking sealioning lmao, you are NOT beating the grifter allegations
>>2833009>He also raped trans women. One of the first people to publically accuse Epstein was a trans woman, but nobody took her seriously because she was trans. Point taken, I didn't know he did that.
Still, he did fund both sides of the debate, since he funded trangender doctor Jess Ting. Still, I don't think he's necessarly a reflexion of the entire bourgeois class, Jennifer Pritzker for exemple is a trans woman billionnaire.
>The literal fucking Olympics did a study proving that trans women have no biological advantage over cis female athletes (and infact are disadvantaged in most ways). Notice how a trans woman has never won a SINGLE Olympic medal, let alone gold? The Olympics study doesn't say that tho. And there has been multiple studies showing that transgender women retain a higher physical strenght even on the midterm. And while no trans woman won in the Olympics, some did win in other sports, notably Lia Thomas in swimming. Also, it's not just the gold metal that matters, especially if you take in account team sports.
>Hormones change your entire biology, trans women are more biologically female than they are biologically male.While Hormones change some secondary sex charateristics, it doesn't change everything, like chromosones or the capacity to carry a child. The latter one being the sociological reason for the distinction between men and women.
>Even if they DID have a small advantage that's not any more justification for banning them than it is for banning especially tall races of people from basketball. It's all the same ridiculous talking points they used to try to ban black people from sports back in the day.It's not the same thing, we don't distinguish between races for sport, we do between sexes ? We should let cis women have a chance at winning sports.
>So all the women dying in the states because they can't access life saving abortion aren't being murdered either I guess? Or does it suddenly count when they're not transhumanists?No, I think the abortion bans are wrong, but they're not murder.
In any case the NHS isn't denying people because they're trans. They just have to take an appointment after your 50s, same as men, as both trans women and men are less likely to get breast cancer then women.
Now, you can disagree with this policy, but if it's murder for trans women, is it murder of men as well ?
>the fucking sealioning lmao, you are NOT beating the grifter allegationsDo you just throw words at random, I am not "sealioning" I'm not spamming you with requestion for sources, and I am not a "grifter" I'm not asking anyone for money.
Again, you're not awnsering the question, how exacly do you think you're appearing to the random normie uninformed by the matters ? Do you think you sound sane and reasonable ? I've never once insulted you and you randomly started insulting me for once again, very mild disagreement.
>>2833041Stop concern trolling, you are a transphobe, we know it and you know it, it is insulting for you to pretend differently.
You know what I think? If the existence of transwomen upsets a few feminist sacred cows, GOOD! We've let them run roughshod over the rest of society for too long!
>>2833048
if you dont want to get beaten maybe dont be a boxer? also, the other women literally was not even trans
>>2833048
That was an algerian cis woman who almost got her life ruined by the retards who transvestigated her based on an insult her opponent threw in the moment.
>ok it doesn't matter that this didn't happen transhumanists just own cis women at everything and i know it o algo
>>2833050Wonder why trans right support is falling down among the general public.
>muh sports, muh competition
Fuck sports yo. People arent equal.
>>2833275Were spanish paraolympics players right to fake down syndrome ?
>>2833279It was for the greater good
>>2833281I stand with the proletarian and historically progressive spanish down syndrome fakers against the Bourgeois, reactionnary Para-OlympiKKKs actually handiKKKaped players..
>>2832573The first part of your post is obviously correct, that is why trans and their rights have increased even in countries where gay rights isnt on the menu unlike what phrygian cap anon said.
The other part with tumblr twitter british journos is bullshit though.
>>2833200By being correct too loudly? I don't particularly like the histrionic trans activists and their weepy "le most harmless demographic" rethoric for being wrong and sentimatlist; they are actually a remarkably sturdy and influencial demographic as Nick Land said. But they are correct about pretty much everything else. And they are also being actively discriminated against throught both top-down measures and horizontal violence.
None of the people itt would be "sensible moderates" on the issue if the same happenned to any other group from homosexuals to ethnics, by the way.
>>2832973It shows democrats and independant declining too. Just not as sharply.
But the actual reason for the decline on the left, despite the left becoming more popular is because of the brown electrorate i don't know why people pretend not to see the elephant in the room.
Brown diasporics hates racism and do not like LGBT, and as the center-right collapsed the far-right have become more openly racist so they flock to the left, they are a very narcissistic crowd.
>>2833359>By being correct too loudly?I was replying to insults hurled against me. My point being that you don't endear people to a cause by insulting those who disagree even slightly. An attitude that is unfortunatly common among certain trans activists and hasn't helped their reputation.
>But they are correct about pretty much everything else.Trans activists don't have a sole coherent ideological position. They all carry philosophical positions that can be criticised, especially the refusal to see the material reality of biological sex in human relations.
Beyond that, political activism necessarly implies some sort of compromise and accepting to work with groups you have disagreement with. Trans activists often refused to do as such. Alienating people who might be sympathetic.
>None of the people itt would be "sensible moderates" on the issue if the same happenned to any other group from homosexuals to ethnics, by the way.Back when segregation was a thing, most communist supported the relatively moderate position of equality between black and whites instead of black revanchism or nationalism.
>>>2832973 (You)>It shows democrats and independant declining too. Just not as sharply.Independants are declining but democrats are well within the margin of error, and are still essentially at the same level they were in 2021. Not the case for trans rights.
>But the actual reason for the decline on the left, despite the left becoming more popular is because of the brown electrorate.In the USA this isn't true, Black and Latino support for the democrats is declining, and so is support for trans rights. They can't be responsible for the decline there.
In general, the decline has been heavy and fast, and Immigration can't explain it. Immigrants have also always voted to the left, in the UK, Labour was historically the most important party for muslims, until Israel started genociding Gaza (bar a short period of time after 2003).
The decline of support for trans rights in the left just reflect a decline of support everywhere else.
The fact that the first anti-trans post in this thread got jannied really just proves his point when mods let blatant /pol/tards, glowies and all flavors of anti communists shit up the board nonstop
>>2833370There has been several pro-trans posts nuked itt including one of mine
>>2833377Legitimate question. Give me a non-moralist reason why not. Remember that agitation within capitalist militaries was mandatory for parties to be granted membership in the Comintern.
>>2829222General response to OP, the left needs to be a bad boy and fun again, in spite of all the fucked up shit in the world. There are correct times to weaponise empathy (7 month old Palestinian baby being shot in the face is a good example and makes anyone making fun of it look like a paychopath to basically anyone thats not final level conservautist), but degrading conservatives as being neurotic and terrified of migrants, or men being put in positions of vulnerability and making them out as wokefinder generals (all true) will butcher the cool factor these people have. The Fuentes rightoid types are smart enough to pivot away from Trump because of Epstein and Israel association, but going after the shitcons (like the shitlibs) and making it as embarrassing as possible to be one is a great strategy imo. Turn the monster they created against them and make them blatant hypocrites so they have to resort to theory, where the left will naturally kick their ass.
>>2833427Oh yeah and also, stop making the trans arguments the front and center of the debate. The right will run rings around you on an optics level for the median person. You can still be pro-trans without centralising the leftist identity on it. It's objectively one of the issues the left struggles with.
>>2833363What alternative do you want? Yeah actually being US imperialist is cool and based? It's fine to be a leftist veteran but not one that still thinks it was all cool and correct like Platner
>>2833370I dont think pointing out that Queer Nationalism controlled the western left for decades is transphobic.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) >>2833435you people can't help yourselves, this is why nobody believes your 'we just need to de-centre LGBT issues' bullshit
>>2833436Is it untrue?
Queer rights have been a large fight the western left has been undergoing for the last 30 years.
The bourgeoisie always lets it happen. When things go to class like occupy did or imperialism like with Israel they shut it down.
>>2833439 (me)
The most cruelly ironic is trans people had more rights, freedoms, and privileges then. People really hate them now. Its sad. In the 90s early 00s there were plenty of trans folks and no one could tell and no one cared.
Its only now that people do.
>>2833440Why do you think that is?
>>2833377Solider are more human then any HR employee. I trust them more for the revolution.
>>2833440Hiding isn't the same as actually having rights
>>2833452retard
>>2833453I will report you to HR for having called me a retard.
>>2833464https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6515308/I guess you'll just accuse the scientists behind the study of being nazis.
>>2833467That wasn't the point
>>2833467>In the 2260 trans women in the cohort, 15 cases of invasive breast cancer were identified (median duration of hormone treatment 18 years, range 7-37 years). This was 46-fold higher than in cisgender men (standardised incidence ratio 46.7, 95% confidence interval 27.2 to 75.4) but lower than in cisgender women (0.3, 0.2 to 0.4).>Oestrogen was prescribed as ethinylestradiol (25 to 100 µg daily), conjugated oestrogens (0.625 to 1.25 mg daily), estradiol patches (50 to 150 µg/24 hours twice weekly), estradiol implants (20 mg every 3 to 6 months), estradiol injections (10 to 100 mg every 2 to 4 weeks), estradiol valerate (2 to 6 mg daily), or estradiol gel (0.75 to 3.0 mg daily)Interesting. I suspect the lower boob cancer rate might be either due to hondose (2mg oral geeeeeeeg) or due to the treatment monitoring trans women will usually do. Still, 46 times higher than cis males doesn't look good for the NHS insofar as limiting the ability for trans women to get breast cancer screening given that it makes up 4.6% lifetime risk according to the stats given.
>>2833474It's still less then cis women, in times of long waiting lists it's not shocking they prioritize the people most likely to be affected from it. Same reason as to why it's harder for men or young women to be screened. It's not great but the solution is to improve the NHS by recruiting more doctors. I don't think they actually ban trans women (or men) from being screened, but you have to take an appointment instead of it being automatic.
>>2833432The issue is with the entire framing of the question, which focuses on interrogating the morality of joining the military instead of assessing the utility of having soldiers and veterans in the movement.
>>2832973I think your model of public opinion is incompatible with the information you quote in your opening line: if Democrat opinion on trans issues stayed static while Republicans became negatively polarized, then the problem isn't that people saw undesirable transgender activists and were repulsed. If that was true, you'd see a drop with both parties, possibly even a greater drop with Dems (who'd be exposed to trans activists as part of their broader anti-right coalition.) compared to Republicans (for whom trans people are a total outgroup that are barely ever encountered for real.)
This model can even explain why opinion worsened in the UK to a much higher extent: Because the centre-left parties threw trans people under the bus, and people tend to go along with their party at least a little bit. (e.g. Democrats correctly see anti-trans posturing as a Republican thing, while in the UK
every major party bar the Greens goes along with it, so it's just "common sense")
You must ask yourself why you're drawn to analyze the flaws of transgender activists as though they're the ones with agency in this situation. One man, Donald Trump, has far more influence on aggregate public opinion than the entirety of transgender activists throughout history. (If you don't believe me: look at support for war with Iran and watch Republicans immediately fall into line behind him. Run the maths on that many people switching their view
instantly.)
You can of course say: well, you need to analyze it because they are stuck with this situation and they do have some agency, but any realistic analysis starting from that perspective must first confront the very marginal agency activists actually have and the multitude of motivations their opponents had.
Allow me a tortured metaphor: perhaps Your Party (dumb name) in England would've done better if they'd run on a better policy platform with better rhetoric. But if you adopt their polices and rhetoric as your source for why they failed, you will ignore 99.99% of the reasons for their disastrous results. They were up against much stronger opponents while being in total disarray internally. (I say "in England" because they literally couldn't even organise running candidates in Scotland and Wales, something
random individuals are capable of doing independently.) The first step, then, is not the
rhetoric or policy of YP activists, but their actual structure
as activists, if you could adopt worse policies and worse rhetoric in exchange for a better structure you'd get a much better result.
But even then
better is relative, because electoral politics is a game full of much more powerful players. Even a well structured party with good activists and good policies can flop because the powers levelled against you are massively more powerful (in YP's case, for example, the gambit was to become a ~10mp ~few hundred councillors left-opposition, rather than to replace Labour), and even in a best-case scenario you have to analyse the result (which would be, numerically, "a disaster") in
that light.
The same is true basically of trans activism: if
the US president decides your group is on his shit list, it doesn't matter who you've got behind you, you're going to have a bad time. See Iran's nuclear deal for what happens when you're on the shit-list and decide to try the moderate conciliatory approach.
>>2833200>Wonder why trans right support is falling down among the general public.A lot of Americans just have LGBT activism fatigue. Particularly when a lot of the activism has shifted away from like "we deserve basic rights like the right to marry and the right to fuck who we want and the right to assimilate into society" and onto petty shit like "if you wouldn't date a trans woman you're a nazi" and shaming people for perceived microaggressions. It all seems like a huge fucking waste of time unless you're terminally online.
>>2833590I think peoople are tired of "slacktivism" like you are mentioning.
People know they need material change. They cant afford groceries. They dont need to lectured about microagressions againt the queer diaper fur gender fae /faeself next door.
>>2833628exactly. i think it's a good thing people are getting more serious about the materialist line of politics.
also many of the fascists currently destroying the world are fags themselves(peter thiel, jd vance, lindsay graham, sam altman, curtis yarvin, etc) so many subconsciously see it as queers being an active part of the bourgeois.
>>2833532>I think your model of public opinion is incompatible with the information you quote in your opening line: if Democrat opinion on trans issues stayed static while Republicans became negatively polarized, then the problem isn't that people saw undesirable transgender activists and were repulsed. I was talking about Gay rights here, there has recently been a decline in support for Gay Marriage among republicans and independants.
>If that was true, you'd see a drop with both parties, possibly even a greater drop with Dems (who'd be exposed to trans activists as part of their broader anti-right coalition.) compared to Republicans (for whom trans people are a total outgroup that are barely ever encountered for real.)This is the case for most trans rights related issue, both parties dropped in support, and while overall the democrats still support trans rights more then republicans, the decline was larger among democrats then republicans. This isn't the case with Gay Marriage.
>This model can even explain why opinion worsened in the UK to a much higher extent. Not really, the decline was happening before Labour turned on the trans people, they're following popular opinion. Beyond that, the rise of the Greens amongst the Youth hasn't improved support for trans rights.
>One man, Donald Trump, has far more influence on aggregate public opinion than the entirety of transgender activists throughout history. It's not just an american or british phenomenon. but even then, while Trump could explain it for US republicans, I don't think he can explain it for the democrats or the independants. I also don't think the Iran war is the best exemple, since you do have a large chunk of republicans opposed to it. Even then, Trump isn't personally radically transphobic, he hung out with drag queens and shit. He, as he often does, advocate for policies he sees as being popular, thats why during his campaigns in 2016-20 he didn't do much about trans people, even saying that trans people should use the bathrooms they feel like, he only started attacking trans people because they were unpopular, and a weak point of the Democrats.
>but any realistic analysis starting from that perspective must first confront the very marginal agency activists actually have and the multitude of motivations their opponents had. I don't disagree, but when there is a decline among different countries, in all categories, all political parties, all age ranges, there is clearly a larger issue then simply Trump's propaganda. Activists do have agency, it can be positive, but it can also be negative, activists can hurt their movement.
>Allow me a tortured metaphor: perhaps Your Party (dumb name) in England Your party entirely shot themselves in the foot, sure it's not solely their policies, but they were disorganised and incompetent, had they actually worked themselves out, they could have taken the place the Greens now hold.
> See Iran's nuclear deal for what happens when you're on the shit-list and decide to try the moderate conciliatory approach.I think there is plenty of difference between how a nation should react and how activists should.
Gay activists were attacked during Bush's term, but they didn't embrace weird radicalism and preferred to appear normal to the general population, gaining their sympathy.
Trans activists, who by definition want the support of the population as they want people to consider them as the gender they desire to be. Have acted in very moralistic ways and pushed for very unpopular demands, typically in sports or about children, instead of trying to garner sympathy for people. There is also a strong morality culture among trans activists, they won't accept to work with someone who agrees mostly with them but they think that nonbinary isn't real for exemple.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) >>2833643Only Thiel and Altman are gay in your list, Yarvin is an occasional chaser though.
Graham apparently cheat on his wife with a woman so the gay thing was hallucinated.
Opinion polls and trans issues aside. I don't care about the opinions of idiot goyim. If 70% of the cattle that gets interviewed for these studies shout about le African replacement and TWD does that mean I should get with the program and advocate to deport half of the browns as a moderate centrist position? You can be correct while being unpopular. Democracy is a sham and pollsters are part of the media industrial complex. Their kvetching is entirely self-motivated.
>>2834039This zionist is trying to split us
>>2834039Based and correct position.
>>2834039Mods permaban this bordigger
>>2833377>>2833420>>2833363Maybe the answer is evident:
The west is morally demonic and hence not worthy of being saved. The average westoid is a demon worshipper. If the west does not subjugate the rest of the world a la palantir manifesto, it will destroy itself. You can't do a revolution in a satanic society. Just work on what happens after the civil war leftychuds.
>>2833982>Graham apparently cheat on his wifeGraham never married lol.
>>2833420what are you supposed to agitate for in the military then, better payouts for shooting browns, better bombs? what gives you the idea that you can uniquely convince some army fucker to listen to you? instead of is squadmates and commanders ? its an all volunteer force who signed on willingly and sometimes even a generational thing. very much unlike comintern days where most of the armies where conscripts and were more impressionable.
>>2829222>has to be good-looking to get assWorks for everybody no?
>>2829222It would help if the left didn't seem to be trying to live up to a a parody of whatever the right said 10 years prior.
>>2829228Who's the most masculine left figure in the USA?
>>2829222the most annoying part about leftoids is the fact that they'll lament about how the entire revolutionary project is doomed because some other leftoid disagrees with them best part is everyone is fucking guilty of it "western left" or "western communists" is basically a derogatory term used by every fucking leftist, socialist and communist in the west and 85% of modern theory are just excuses to do nothing and goon in your room while the fascists gradually just take over the entire world
>>2833367>My point being that you don't endear people to a cause by insulting those who disagree even slightly. An attitude that is unfortunatly common among certain trans activists and hasn't helped their reputation.If you're in the minority, the reality is that you have to respect the majority. I'm not saying this is my preference, it's just a fact that you can't be too aggressive because otherwise the majority will stomp on you. Gays and lesbians learned this over the years. At one point the reputation of gay men was very bad, we were either weird perverts or cartoon characters (at best). Then there was HIV/AIDS which made things even worse and possibly killed 1/3 of the gay men in the U.S., which is like experiencing the Black Plague from the Middle Ages in the 1980s/1990s before prep drugs arrived. If you meet older gay men who grew up back then, they are basically Holocaust survivors in terms of the number of people around them who died.
At any rate, you have to make the majority feel like them giving in is not a big deal, that it's fair, and they don't really have to change anything about themselves. To use a Chinese proverb, you have to pet the donkey in the direction of its hair. You even affirm who they are in the process of them giving in.
Same-sex marriage is a very bourgeois kind of thing if you think about it. It's not a revolutionary demand (get over yourself), it's just demanding what heterosexuals do and which is really great, actually! It doesn't make straight people (generally) feel threatened when you phrase it that way. You win them over. Also it's just more serious and grown-up. Same with military service, as much as leftists hate to talk about that. This sounds very conservative on my part, and maybe it is. But whatevs. A lot of "queer" and trans stuff has oriented around "trans kids." The aesthetics are comics and cartoons. I don't believe in bullying anyone or picking on kids or making life more difficult for trans kids, I'm just pointing this out. It might have some growing up to do as a movement.
>Independants are declining but democrats are well within the margin of error, and are still essentially at the same level they were in 2021. Not the case for trans rights. That's a very short time horizon though. I think you have to think over 30-40 years. If you panic because your approval rating went down from five years ago, you'll lose your nerves. You have to be in it for the long haul. I think trans people will become more accepted over the long term, and part of that will be due to material changes (technology), but also the trans movement itself will evolve through bitter experiences. We're currently in a backlash, even in fashion there is more gender differentation than there was a few years ago. But gays and lesbians also experienced backlashes.
>>2833359>None of the people itt would be "sensible moderates" on the issue if the same happenned to any other group from homosexuals to ethnics, by the way.This was a real debate among gays in the 1990s over this stuff. There were radical gay activists who rejected marriage as a heterosexual institution. Why become like the straights? That's "respectability politics." These are neoliberal social norms! There were gay "assimilationists" (which was a pejorative term). I find the history pretty interesting anyways. But my approach regarding trans people is to butt out and they will choose what is appropriate for them. I don't think throwing people under the bus to appease bigots is something anyone should do.
>>2833877>Gay activists were attacked during Bush's term, but they didn't embrace weird radicalism and preferred to appear normal to the general population, gaining their sympathy. Basically, yes. There was a debate about Pride parades where some guy with a thong might make us look bad, but I want to point out that I never accepted that. You don't want to police everyone to look and behave a certain way. I'm socially libertarian in that way. But if you ask me, I do agree with the general approach that the movement took. Like just wanting to be treated fairly under the law while otherwise being left alone. Also a big thing was encouraging people to come out of the closet. Really the biggest obstacle for gay men was just staying in the closest, because that's a psychological thing.
>>2845698whats wrong with wanting nice things in socialism exactly?
as for the question, hasan I guess?
I think… you don't really want people's approval. Well, you do. You want to be liked, it's better than being disliked. But you should be more indifferent to what people think of you. "Haters gonna hate" and all that. That shouldn't be the driving force of your movement. So if your approval ratings are going down a bit, it's not a big deal, because it doesn't matter if most people don't like you. If you transitioned (or came out of the closet) and you're still alive, then you're probably a pretty strong person (mentally speaking).
The point is to build self-respect, because that's part of the maturation process. When you respect yourself, you'll be more effective at demanding fair treatment. That might not sound "fair" but that's the reality.
>>2846813This is historical revisionism. Gay people had to fight tooth and nail over decades of being stomped on by "the majority." That's what won them a position in society, at least enough for the bourgeois aspirant fags to be comfortable enough to come out and assimilate into mainstream bourgeois society.
You should kill yourself.
>>2846832>You should kill yourself.I didn't kill myself when I was in the closet so why should I do it now?
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