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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1781040216220.jpg (293.81 KB, 1651x1386, glob.jpg)

 

They refuse to be nuanced. Everything is "West bad, East Good", no matter the context, no matter what they do. It's evidently not ideologically informed but simply globe-level tribalism. There should be nothing difficult about saying, for instance, that in the context of the US vs Cuba, Russia is in the right, whereas in the context of Russia vs Ukraine, Russia is in the wrong.
222 posts and 25 image replies omitted.

>>2835933
That's the best argument anyone's made here so far, but it's still too unfair for me to embrace. It's the same reason I don't condemn Finland in WW2 for instance - Stalin put them in an impossible situation. The Axis overall were in the wrong, but Finland specifically was justified in fighting the Soviets.

>>2835949
Yeah and Zelensky was a fucking idiot for agreeing to this, because he got nothing in return for it. He thought agreeing to it would get the Americans to keep giving him weapons, but Trump gave him nothing. Trump doesn't care whether Ukraine continues to exist or is part of Russia, he's only interested in making money from it. Whether that's through Zelensky or Putin doesn't matter, though he'd prefer Putin simply because he has a pre-established relationship.

>>2835949
Based trump

>>2835950
> It's the same reason I don't condemn Finland in WW2 for instance
they were nazi collaborators who wouldn't sell the USSR land even at a premium because they knew the nazis were going to use that land as a corridor to invade the USSR and finland wanted to roll out the red carpet for the nazis you absolute liberal idealist

>>2835953
>Yeah and Zelensky was a fucking idiot for agreeing to this, because he got nothing in return for it
zelensky has personally benefited from this corruption and the ukrainian civilians have suffered from it. the ukrainian government and military is a bigger enemy to the ukrainian people than russia is.

>>2835934
>Ukraine is no longer a US proxy.

i'm sorry this is so fucking stupid i keep having to reply to it with more sources

Ukraine sits on trillions worth of minerals. US politicians want them.

<Ukraine is "sitting on a trillion dollars worth of minerals that could be good to our economy", said US Senator Lindsey Graham as he stood next to Zelensky in Kiev. Ben Norton discusses how Western politicians and corporations want to exploit Ukrainian natural resources, to profit and to weaken the role of China and Russia in critical supply chains.


Topics
0:00 US Senator Lindsey Graham wants Ukraine's minerals
4:19 Ukraine has tens of trillions of dollars worth of natural resources
5:34 China and critical minerals supply chain
7:10 USA wants Ukraine to replace China in minerals supply chain
8:03 Wall Street is buying up Ukraine
9:13 (Clip) Zelensky's love letter to Western corporations
10:58 NATO fights Russia to the last Ukrainian
11:46 Study: foreign intervention is 100 times more likely in country with oil
14:22 Geopolitics of NATO proxy war on Russia in Ukraine
17:58 Afghanistan's resources and $1 trillion of minerals
24:31 Outro

>>2835950
>The Axis overall were in the wrong, but Finland specifically was justified in fighting the Soviets.
This is why I don't think in these terms, it leads to somewhat incoherent positions. If we concede that position for the sake of argument, where does it lead us? Finland was an Axis power, you quite simply wouldn't be able to support them without also supporting Germany in practice. Is it moral for Finland to reclaim its territory if this also contributes to German victory? Does the immorality of the Winter War outweigh the morality of destroying Nazism? I would say no in both cases. My moral compass points inexorably to the creation of a world in which genuine justice and freedom is the ruling order, and this can only happen under socialism. If there are immoral acts which nevertheless move us closer to that, I'm willing to tolerate this. Moreover, I'm willing to examine the balance sheet and decide which actor has immorality more strongly built into its state and economy.

File: 1781116197036.png (1.58 MB, 1280x960, Ukranazis_328.png)

>>2835934
>The current admin at best doesn't care, at worst is hostile because they want to do business with the Russians.
fell for kayfabe award. i swear the US mind rapes you retards. all they have to do is switch which bourgeois imperialist party is in power and suddenly you act like the war they pursued 4 years ago is no longer part of their larger plans… no you see heckin ukraine was a democrap project not a rethuglican project…. RETARD RETARD RETARD. klobuchar (D) and graham (R) visited poroshenko TOGETHER in 2016 and said 2017 would be the "year of offense." Now because the orange zionist billionaire is in charge you think ukraine is no longer a US puppet? idiotic.

>>2835889
This is because you don't see "anti"campism as reactionary on the level of the KKK. These people are supporters of the imperialist camp, they are in fact a much larger concern than any loser ass retarded KKK relic. You're bringing up all these random individualised examples of the people who support the modern day SS for "good reasons", that they might "have the same goal" but they don't, they in fact have the opposite goal to you.

>What's the point of doing this if not to get people to adopt the correct line and reject the wrong line?

Diliniating correct theory leads to correct practice leads to succesful revolution. It's not to convince anyone of the righteousness of your cause. Leave that to the propagandists

>anybody who holds the wrong line is beyond reaching anyways, so there's no point arguing against it.

No, anybody who's a reactionary imperialist (outspoken "anti"campist), is beyond reaching. Obviously this doesn't apply to all incorrect beliefs at all times, but to specific beliefs in specific circumstances

>Idk man I guess it's just a question of how optimistic you are, but I see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy if you just assume that there's no point to trying. Even if you aren't going to convince the person you're arguing against, you should still consider the effect presenting your arguments can have on observers. Lenin knew he wasn't going to change Kautsky's mind, but he understood that in making his arguments rank and file workers or SPD/RSDLP members might be convinced.

He knew he had to provide correct theory and oppose incorrect theory, but it's not really about trying to "convince" people in the way you're talking about. Regardless if you know anything about Lenin you'd know he'd feel no qualms or problems with calling his political opponents enemies or any number of other things. This whole handwringing about words would be the least of his concern.

<The Frenchman, German or Italian who says: “Socialism is opposed to violence against nations, therefore I defend myself when my country is invaded”, betrays socialism and internationalism, because such a man sees only his own “country”, he puts “his own” . . . bourgeoisie above everything else and does not give a thought to the international connections which make the war an imperialist war and his bourgeoisie a link in the chain of imperialist plunder.


<All philistines and all stupid and ignorant yokels argue in the same way as the renegade Kautsky supporters, Longuet supporters, Turati and Co.: “The enemy has invaded my country, I don’t care about anything else.[32]


<The socialist, the revolutionary proletarian, the internationalist, argues differently. He says: “The character of the war (whether it is reactionary or revolutionary) does not depend on who the attacker was, or in whose country the ‘enemy’ is stationed; it depends on what class is waging the war, and on what politics this war is a continuation of. If the war is a reactionary, imperialist war, that is, if it is being waged by two world groups of the imperialist, rapacious, predatory, reactionary bourgeoisie, then every bourgeoisie (even of the smallest country) becomes a participant in the plunder, and my duty as a representative of the revolutionary proletariat is to prepare for the world proletarian revolution as the only escape from the horrors of a world slaughter. I must argue, not from the point of view of ‘my’ country (for that is the argument of a wretched, stupid, petty-bourgeois nationalist who does not realise that he is only a plaything in the hands of the imperialist bourgeoisie), but from the point of view of my share in the preparation, in the propaganda, and in the acceleration of the world proletarian revolution.”

>>2835967
In the case of WW2, there's no way to split the two because everyone involved was in active combat. There's Nazi forces literally in Finland, if you're at war with the Nazis then Finland is by default a target. There's just no way around it. But it doesn't mean Finland was in the wrong, only that everyone else had no choice but to fuck them over anyway. The current situation is differs in that Ukraine isn't, and can't, be some kind of launch pad for an American invasion of Russia. No such thing has happened, no such thing can happen, which means Ukraine doesn't need to be sacrificed for the greater good.

>>2835969
I can't help you if you refuse to see how Trump is different from prior American presidents. He very obviously is and I'm not debating this point.

>>2835971
>but they don't, they in fact have the opposite goal to you
This is just a refusal to believe that anybody can be mistaken about this issue. I've met people who were both vocally pro-Ukraine and pro-Iran/Palestine. How would you explain the politics of somebody like that if support for Ukraine can only come from a conscious and deliberately pro-imperialist position?

>>2835976
It doesn't matter, if they are vocal "anti"campists they are in the enemy camp simple as. Whether they're in the wrong camp for the wrong or right reasons is irrelevant. If they're just incorrect on a single issue like Ukraine that's not really the largest problem, but usually the two go hand in hand which is why you brought them up

>>2835940
what was happening in the USSR that allowed gorbachev to asend to power?

>>2835975
>I can't help you if you refuse to see how Trump is different from prior American presidents.
Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and raped some of them. How is Trump "different" The only way in which trump is "different" is he represents the private sector interests directly stepping in to run the government instead of the government acting as a civic middleman to launder the interests of the private sector. he is exactly what came before, only more overt, reactionary, mask-off, and sometimes incompetent. we heard russiagate nonsense for 3 years because he refused to arm ukraine in 2017, and nothing came of it because democrats are false opposition who pinned all their hopes on a republican FBI agent mueller. what a fucking joke. then the biden family does the exact same kind of corruption by getting hunter a sinecure on a ukrainian gas firm board after the 2014 coup and we barely hear a peep from the same party. this shit is a clown show and you know it.

>>2835515
> only care about people alive now and their present conditions. I'm not interested in fighting to avenge
thats not what history is about, its about understanding the root cause of conflict so you can cure the disease for good instead of treating symptoms

>>2835500
why would anyone say what they do if it's illegal

My tribe > your tribe

>>2835999
revisionism in the CPSU

>>2836286
Humanity will never progress if we don't end this shit

>>2836330
Then kill your inferior tribe

>>2836336
No, I'd rather kill yours. I'd rather kill neither, to be clear, but I'll never side against my own, I'm not suicidal.

File: 1781130237754.mp4 (3.27 MB, 640x360, fklbbXCIkIu_0i4u.mp4)

>>2836330
>Humanity will never progress if we don't end this shit

>>2836330
you know theres a reason we evolved tribalism. Maybe we should embrace tribalism. Kill everyone who isnt my tribe

>>2836371
You're literally not a leftist if you believe this

File: 1781131626451.png (5.18 KB, 250x150, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2836374
correct
now i will kill you
(mods dont ban me this is a joke)

>>2836330
>humanity
is over. we lost. clankers will trade stocks by themselves after we all die of supercovid and heat stroke
>progress
cancer progresses from stage 1 to stage 4, and then the body dies.

You think this discourse is a gotcha? You think I'm afraid of liberalism advancing to it's ultimate conclusions? You are the one who foolishly believes in the NATO exceptionalism. That your relative privilege and status stems from some intrinsic value of your culture rather than the current economic ordering of the world.

You are right that present NATO's enemies are largely other liberals and reactionary. And want more of everything you do, with them at the top. You are also broadly correct that no thirdie revolution is going to sweep the world and change the stakes after US hegemony wanes to regional. You think this discourse is a gotcha? That's just fine by me.

When they win, those lessers, those uppity partners to your past global hegemony, they'll do to you, what you do to to others. I wish only to live long enough. To see the time where every other mother in Germany and France and the UK seriously ponders prostitution to care for their children. And every other man is a junkie, a drunkard or a dealer.

This is the bed you made, liberals. You WILL sleep in it.

>>2836639
If you insist on making it a you-or-me situation then I'll try to make sure it's you that dies.

File: 1781157785666.png (87.57 KB, 500x500, all edge no point.png)

>>2836639
>>2836642
man can yall grow up and stop being edgy faggots every day on here

I'm more a
>South "good"
>North "bad"
type of guy. I consider the Russians a separate entity in this scheme, but they were very useful in dismantling European dominance over other nations. Anyone who has difficulty understanding why the Third World is apathetic towards Putin's war or why neighboring countries want to leave the Russian sphere of influence has been blinded by ideology.

campist = a campist against USA-EU-NATO
anti-campist = a campist for USA-EU-NATO
anticampism is a fraud

>>2835157
We can neither support or oppose such actions on any meaningful scale. We should ignore it.
(Tweeting/leftypol posting in favour of either side does not in any meaningful sense constitute support.)

Even "will there be ice cream under communism?" Slop threads are better than foreign policy LARPing. The only thing of any interest whatsoever in the Ukraine war was that POV footage of a guy electing from a jet.

Campism is a psyop to get first and third world communists to waste time yelling at each other

>>2836847
Communists yelling at each other is an integral part of the communist movement. Half the manifesto was dedicated to it

File: 1781185592577.jpg (227.57 KB, 1080x983, 1778280279475.jpg)

Total 3rd world bourg death

File: 1781189115690.png (348.12 KB, 1600x1385, gmil critical support.png)

>>2836847
I'm also convinced it's a psyop that started at the end of the 2010s when some people on the left (including /leftypol/) advocated returning to Marxism and the basics of class struggle, instead of endless virtue signalling about woke intersectionality (post-Occupy psyop).

When you think about it, what do these debates have achieved?
Absolutely nothing.

When the strongest anti-imperialist soldier on Twitter with a Stalin PFP proudly proclaim "Uncritical support for Russia, Cuba, Iran, Turkmenistan and the DPRK", how does it help these countries? It simply doesn't matter in the slightest, it makes zero material difference.

All this talk reduces these people to passive spectators.
They probably don't feel the need to do activism in their own country, because they feel like they have the correct opinions on geopolitical events, and it's sufficient to feel good about themselves.

A side-effect of being a spectator is that, to feel important, they need to come up with the edgiest takes possible.
Here is what the main left party in my country says about Iran and Russia:
>Iranian workers are oppressed by the Iranian theocracy and were right to revolt, but the US bombing Iran and kidnapping Maduro is absolutely unacceptable, it's not about "democratic regime change" but resources, if the Iranians or Venezuelans want regime change, it's their own matter and not the matter of foreign powers
>Russia were wrong to start an invasion of Ukraine, but NATO shouldn't have expanded to Eastern Europe after the end of the Cold War and fuel tensions, and in fact NATO should have disbanded in 1991 since the Warsaw Pact was over.
You might say it's naive perhaps, but these are perfectly reasonable geopolitical stances for a party that has slim but significant chances to win the next elections, since they would have to deal with geopolitics for real.
Meanwhile all the most extreme "death to AmeriKKKa, long live to [insert edgy leader]" takes make us look like fools. And the problem is that, even if you pretend to be retarded as a joke, the more you do it, the more you become actually retarded and surround yourself with actual retards.

On top of that, I doubt most people here would actually enjoy to live in Russia or Iran, especially considering half of you are gay or trans. You would get beaten up by Putinists daily for being atheist communist faggots.

But perhaps, the most important point is that, once multipolarity happens, what happens for us, gay communists?
Multipolarity is already happening: some countries are starting to buy and sell oil with renminbi, Iran is humiliating the US right now, and Ukraine didn't win the war after four years (but neither did Russia).

What are you multipolaristas going to do now?
I'm pretty much afraid the answer will be as usual: sit and watch like docile spectators.

I see that a lot of multipolaristas are saying, "it's the beginning but it's not yet real multipolarity", and I think they are afraid to look at the reality of things: no communist party is ready to take power anywhere, on the contrary, multipolarity exacerbates nationalist rhetoric and conflicts between capitalist nation-states, and the US is becoming more and more unashamedly aggressive as it loses its global power.

tl;dr: Campism is just a rhetorical game for overeducated middle-class radicals alienated from working class organizations.

>>2835155
>>proving OPs point
you must admit that the cheerleading for countries simply because they are brics is silly and not communistic. whatever happened to ruthless criticism?

My favorite BRICS country is UAE

>>2836890
>All this talk reduces these people to passive spectators.
et tu doe

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>>2836890
>>2836847
I agree that communists should work on their own goals instead of getting twitter brainrot. I also remember that the attitude towards LDPR was always positive or neutral at worst even among western "anarchist" leftists until imperialist media was given the order to gaslight everyone about their war as a number one priority. Actual LDPR combatants were pretty much accepted and Ukrainian fascism was acknowledged. Yes, it shouldn't be your number one priority if you are not in the region, but the fact is, if you accept the premise of the current ultranationalist and rabidly anticommunist project as legitimate, you are a tool who will be manipulated into accepting anything convenient to imperialists. You can always just say that you don't know much about it or that it's just tragic without any additional qualification. It's just fine to do that. Acceptance of the Ukrainian liberal fascist project is the new position known to be actively pushed by intelligence services. It has no right to exist among socialists, especially since Ukraine persecutes socialists far more than any country persecutes gay people. "Pro-Ukraine" leftists literally appeared out of thin air one bad day. Can we just not get Twitter brainrot and not uncritically accept what's reported by BBC as legitimate, please?


>>2836764
>or why neighboring countries want to leave the Russian sphere of influence
they dont tho. it would be fine if they just want to leave and be neutral but they dont. and the reason why isnt popular will or self interest but compradors that were trained at universities in the west to sell out their countries resources.

for example armenia is not just "leaving the russia sphere" they are joining the eu, which on its own would be fine, except the eu just passed laws requiring military spending. so whats actually happening is armenia occupied by cia puppets and is actually making noise about joining a hostile aggressive military bloc

>>2836890
>once multipolarity happens, what happens for us, gay communists?
did you think communism was for your personal benefit or that we would reach full communism in your lifetime?
first world gays: life will get worse. material conditions will decline and as a result rights will be rolled back
third world gays: life will get better. human rights are dependent on economic development and culture conditioned thereby. anti-imperialism and alternative development models will accelerate this.

long term: all the gays get more rights because productive forces increase enabling humanity the material capacity for "rights"

>What are you multipolaristas going to do now?

a lot of us are union organizers and trying to link together the various shitter parties with an actual vanguard. its pretty easy to make normies into pro iran campists when they get hit by an israeli tear gas canister for protesting rent hikes


>>2837150
>first world gays: life will get worse. material conditions will decline and as a result rights will be rolled back
Rights come from the result of political/social struggles, it's not some mechanical material conditions slider that make rights appear or go away. Although I think there are certain material conditions that are prerequisites. But I think the material conditions involved here are like "modern post-WWII cities" and the decline of rural populations for urban populations which destroys the traditional agrarian-patriarchial family. Very big scale, long term stuff that happens over 100-200 years. Support for gay rights is higher in the U.S. now (like net +30 points) than before the 2007/2008 financial crisis even though things have become materially worse for people since then. You need to give people more credit.

BTW I think this kind of mechanical materialism is common with "campism." It's like the world is a finely-tuned machine with a single causal chain like A causes B, therefore B is progressive to A. The main contradiction is imperialism so therefore any state opposing the U.S. is progressive and therefore the people inside that state protesting the government are CIA. It works well for describing natural/physical systems but not society. Marx/Engels objected to it and had a different theory about how societies contain internal contradictions that generate change from within.

>>2835645
>That level of anti-communism isn't a natural and inevitable outgrowth of the concept of Ukrainian nationhood. Polls from just a few years before Maidan show that much (often a majority) of the country had positive views of the USSR. Views started to change following the coup and the institutionalization of Banderite ideology.
I think it's kind of like a feedback loop with both sides doubling down and getting increasingly angry at each other. The world economy crashed in 2007/2008 and tanked a bunch of economies including Ukraine and Russia. This threatened incumbents everywhere but the ones in Ukraine were turfed out by street demonstrations for pro-European parties and then that escalated into a conflict with Russia, which got offended by Ukraine breaking up with Russia. There were armed filibusters from Russia running around in the Donbass and they were mad at the Ukrainians for taking people's T.V. shows off the air and the Ukrainians were getting madder at the Russians for showing up like that.

Like if /leftypol/ can figure out that retarded but ostensibly "progressive" lib idpol doesn't justify white nationalism (or make it good, because it is bad) but can backfire and feed it (which is why we should focus on class struggle rather than race/national/gender struggle) then idk why this is so difficult to comprehend. Or maybe people can just keep fighting national wars with each other and that's what history will be for the next 100 years.

This stuff about "Banderite ideology" also isn't very convincing to me because I'm not sure most people read anything anyways. It seems like this big ideology is what's driving this according to highly ideological leftists because those leftists think in terms of big ideological battles. Okay sure it's not irrelevant but most people are not political warriors like hard leftists are, people just do whatever and react to what's going on around them. See how well Israel is doing calling people antisemites at improving their reputation.

>>2837150
>just throw gays under the bus to pander to third world reactionaries
You people are morally bankrupt, I am never siding with you.

Also, in terms of "life will get worse. material conditions decline and a result rights will be rolled back" is that you could end up with something even more contradictory. Like the institutions of the ruling class accept certain reforms to try and stabilize the system. This whole trad thing in Russia could get totally dumped overboard in three months after Putin dies and some group of liberal technocrats replace him. Also nobody really knows what the future is going to look like, but I think we're just getting cyberpunk stuff. There's a huge number of poor people and massive inequality, but I'm not sure gay people are particularly threatened in that sort of society. Over time, trans people will also probably become assimilated especially when you consider technological advancements in human biological modifications.

>>2836890
Holy based nuclear TRVKE


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