/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2836890
truke

>>2836764
>or why neighboring countries want to leave the Russian sphere of influence
they dont tho. it would be fine if they just want to leave and be neutral but they dont. and the reason why isnt popular will or self interest but compradors that were trained at universities in the west to sell out their countries resources.

for example armenia is not just "leaving the russia sphere" they are joining the eu, which on its own would be fine, except the eu just passed laws requiring military spending. so whats actually happening is armenia occupied by cia puppets and is actually making noise about joining a hostile aggressive military bloc

>>2836890
>once multipolarity happens, what happens for us, gay communists?
did you think communism was for your personal benefit or that we would reach full communism in your lifetime?
first world gays: life will get worse. material conditions will decline and as a result rights will be rolled back
third world gays: life will get better. human rights are dependent on economic development and culture conditioned thereby. anti-imperialism and alternative development models will accelerate this.

long term: all the gays get more rights because productive forces increase enabling humanity the material capacity for "rights"

>What are you multipolaristas going to do now?
a lot of us are union organizers and trying to link together the various shitter parties with an actual vanguard. its pretty easy to make normies into pro iran campists when they get hit by an israeli tear gas canister for protesting rent hikes

>>2837150
>first world gays: life will get worse. material conditions will decline and as a result rights will be rolled back
Rights come from the result of political/social struggles, it's not some mechanical material conditions slider that make rights appear or go away. Although I think there are certain material conditions that are prerequisites. But I think the material conditions involved here are like "modern post-WWII cities" and the decline of rural populations for urban populations which destroys the traditional agrarian-patriarchial family. Very big scale, long term stuff that happens over 100-200 years. Support for gay rights is higher in the U.S. now (like net +30 points) than before the 2007/2008 financial crisis even though things have become materially worse for people since then. You need to give people more credit.

BTW I think this kind of mechanical materialism is common with "campism." It's like the world is a finely-tuned machine with a single causal chain like A causes B, therefore B is progressive to A. The main contradiction is imperialism so therefore any state opposing the U.S. is progressive and therefore the people inside that state protesting the government are CIA. It works well for describing natural/physical systems but not society. Marx/Engels objected to it and had a different theory about how societies contain internal contradictions that generate change from within.

>>2835645
>That level of anti-communism isn't a natural and inevitable outgrowth of the concept of Ukrainian nationhood. Polls from just a few years before Maidan show that much (often a majority) of the country had positive views of the USSR. Views started to change following the coup and the institutionalization of Banderite ideology.
I think it's kind of like a feedback loop with both sides doubling down and getting increasingly angry at each other. The world economy crashed in 2007/2008 and tanked a bunch of economies including Ukraine and Russia. This threatened incumbents everywhere but the ones in Ukraine were turfed out by street demonstrations for pro-European parties and then that escalated into a conflict with Russia, which got offended by Ukraine breaking up with Russia. There were armed filibusters from Russia running around in the Donbass and they were mad at the Ukrainians for taking people's T.V. shows off the air and the Ukrainians were getting madder at the Russians for showing up like that.

Like if /leftypol/ can figure out that retarded but ostensibly "progressive" lib idpol doesn't justify white nationalism (or make it good, because it is bad) but can backfire and feed it (which is why we should focus on class struggle rather than race/national/gender struggle) then idk why this is so difficult to comprehend. Or maybe people can just keep fighting national wars with each other and that's what history will be for the next 100 years.

This stuff about "Banderite ideology" also isn't very convincing to me because I'm not sure most people read anything anyways. It seems like this big ideology is what's driving this according to highly ideological leftists because those leftists think in terms of big ideological battles. Okay sure it's not irrelevant but most people are not political warriors like hard leftists are, people just do whatever and react to what's going on around them. See how well Israel is doing calling people antisemites at improving their reputation.

>>2837150
>just throw gays under the bus to pander to third world reactionaries
You people are morally bankrupt, I am never siding with you.

Also, in terms of "life will get worse. material conditions decline and a result rights will be rolled back" is that you could end up with something even more contradictory. Like the institutions of the ruling class accept certain reforms to try and stabilize the system. This whole trad thing in Russia could get totally dumped overboard in three months after Putin dies and some group of liberal technocrats replace him. Also nobody really knows what the future is going to look like, but I think we're just getting cyberpunk stuff. There's a huge number of poor people and massive inequality, but I'm not sure gay people are particularly threatened in that sort of society. Over time, trans people will also probably become assimilated especially when you consider technological advancements in human biological modifications.

>>2836890
Holy based nuclear TRVKE

>>2837174
>Rights come from the result of political/social struggles
no
>Although I think there are certain material conditions that are prerequisites.
thats what im saying
>"modern post-WWII cities" and the decline of rural populations for urban populations which destroys the traditional agrarian-patriarchial family
i agree
>Support
idealism
>give people more credit.
idealism

if people had political power maybe. but we live in a capitalist dictatorship.
>>2837182
>this kind of mechanical materialism
im not talking about that. i didnt say productive forces grant rights i paraphrased marx.

under capitalist dictatorship in decay gay rights is a luxury, like healthcare. in a regime that experiences declining rate of profit the capitalist must enforce austerity, and non reproductive families are not profitable. same reason they are banning abortion. there is structurally enough but the people lack the political power(militant organization, not will or support).

and you are forgetting about deindustrialization rust belt etc. america does not have many "modern cities" anymore. what is now modern is out of their reach they have been left behind and didnt maintain what was modern 50 years ago. never build trains and even personal vehicle roads are falling apart. social services? lol sure we could grant rights by decree if we gained power tomorrow but it would be shaky ground we would also be building infrastructure to secure it. its not all already built anymore.

>>2837306
telling you whats gonna happen isnt throwing gays under the bus. the left is not organized enough in advanced western countries. instead you get feeble protests and austerity or if you have enough balls they will just go fascist and the left gets murdered because there arent enough of us yet.

west is in decline and transnational capital is abandoning it. they dont give a fuck if your countries crumble. you should be organizing mutual aid and dual power to deliver the goods to your comrades and materially show them how joining the red side will help them. burying your head in the sand doesnt help anyone

>>2837020
You type this without once recognising that Russia started an actual for-real type war. LDPR got half-positive PR because people weren't paying enough attention to decide if it was a real revolutionary/self-determination type thing or a big psyop, but Russia's "denazification" operation was a straight up case of one country invading another, and people (correctly!) don't much care for that.

I do not believe anything nefarious had to happen for pro-ukraine leftists to "appear out of thin air one day" when there's a very clear identifiable invasion day. (and it's in 2022, not 2014, fuck off wikipedia.) Russia could probably have gotten away with it if they'd taken Ukraine in 3 days and presented the world with a fait accompli (I have better things to care about tbh) but they blew it (even if they ultimately win, they blew it).
Speaking personally: my initial reaction to the invasion was "lol RIP little country" but then it survived and now we're in the 4th year of a pointless war so my reaction is "fuck you Putin for clogging up /leftypol/ with constant garbage about your boring war". You can quibble with the details all you like (noo you see Ukranians burned down a trade union hall and the guy they threw in the bin was based actually) but I don't care, the countries in question are not important enough to be worth the attention or the loyalty they inspire in anyone and they often inspire people to stupid positions on more transient topics of greater interest. Change the fucking channel, talk about the Gambela conflict, anything.

>>2838652
>Russia started an actual for-real type war
america started the war

>>2836847
>Campism is a psyop to get first and third world communists to waste time yelling at each other
>>2836890
>I'm also convinced it's a psyop that started at the end of the 2010s

The actual historical origins of the term were already explained earlier in this thread. A charitable interpretation is that you did not notice it. Here is your opportunity: >>2835155

>>2835154
>campists are tribalists
"what are we, a bunch of indigenous people?" ok settler
> evidently not ideologically informed
ideology is when you have fun debates with your fellow Jeffrey Epstein class of PMC liberals who write for The Atlantic. Its non-ideological if you believe everyone at those pedo parties is satanic!
>They refuse to be nuanced
<"Russia is bad" (refusal to be nuanced)
NATO is literally just a whitewashed version of NAZI, your nuance is literally holocaust denial. 30 million people were exterminated by neoliberalism in their 'Cold War', but the important thing is that you pathologize the dysfunction of your finance imperialist slaves by pretending they're just randomly lashing out for no historical reason. There's no reason for Palestine to be so dysfunctional, campists are irrational for supporting our genocide survivors!

>>2835934
>Ukraine is no longer a US proxy
Hunter Biden was being as a high paid corporate leader in a Ukrainian resource extraction company because they love his tweets, ignore the BlackRock Epstein class

>>2836890
>what do these debates have achieved? Absolutely nothing.
>They probably don't feel the need to do activism in their own country
You need to believe the working class engaging in speech has no historical impact because you're a liberal. This is very sad cope!
>how does it help these countries? It simply doesn't matter in the slightest, it makes zero material difference
Marxist materialism is about the SOCIAL RELATIONS that create value and hegemony. Materialism is not when physical objects get moved around, Marxist materialism is about understanding how our social consciousness is determined by modes of production. You need rhetoric to achieve class consciousness
>All this talk reduces these people to passive spectators.
I would never scoff at 1st world workers hearing ideas like "Vietnamese collective farming? that's cool, I wish I could start a farm with my homies" because I am not a liberal
>they need to come up with the edgiest takes possible
American workers in 2001: "The World Trade Center was burned? Haha looks like those Israeli globalist pedos are being sent to hell where they belong!"
PMC socialists: (seething and dripping with contempt at the most basic discourse of the proletarat for not being abstracted enough for their intellect, until 2025 when they realized they could gain social capital for their podcast brand by pretending that they were against the Epstein class all along)
>overeducated middle-class radicals
Every Accusation Is A Confession

>>2837306
>throw gays under the bus to pander to third world reactionaries
"de-dollarization is homophobic, LGBT need Wall Street to survive" lmao anti-campist radlibs are beyond parody holy shit

campism is good, theres no reason for marxist leninists to work with anarchists, or demsocs MLs, arguments keep eachother hardened.

>>2835154
Leftoids on everything: There is no binary! Excrpt geopolitics that's West vs. East very real clash of civilizations in this house Samuel P. Huntington is a hero.

>>2840613
>There is no binary! Excrpt geopolitics
this implies that its a static ordering and not a result of specific historic conditions, which is wrong

>>2835210
All libs

>>2840520
>ctrl+f capitalism: 0 results
>ctrl+f capitalist: 0 results
Communism was already dead in 1919, damn.

>>2838495
>no … thats what im saying
I think we basically agree, and "right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby" is right. But "men do make their own history." Men do make choices and can just do whatever. You can just do things. But the things you do are conditioned by the material framework you're operating within. I think you're arguing that I'm stressing a more idealist view and I'm arguing that you're stressing more of a deterministic view but it's a complicated thing yeah.

>under capitalist dictatorship in decay gay rights is a luxury, like healthcare. in a regime that experiences declining rate of profit the capitalist must enforce austerity, and non reproductive families are not profitable. same reason they are banning abortion.
Seems like birth rates are collapsing all over the world. Nobody has a good explanation for it and attempts by governments to reverse it don't seem to be working very well. It looks even worse in Russia and China (where it only doesn't seem to be as bad because China has a huge population, but really it's falling off the cliff, the current youth cohort that are 4 years old are almost 3x smaller than the current peak of people in their 30s). Like even if you attempt to up the violence and social pressure to have more kids I'm not sure it will work, humans needs to be coerced by the force of their natural environment (or extra-tribal violence) where anyone alone gets eaten by tigers or killed/raped by the other tribe. Once that evaporates, so does the birth rate. One of the few high-income countries that is above replacement rate is Israel btw, it's like twice the United States (which could be worse).

>and you are forgetting about deindustrialization rust belt etc. america does not have many "modern cities" anymore. what is now modern is out of their reach they have been left behind and didnt maintain what was modern 50 years ago.
The U.S. absolutely has modern cities. What the fuck are you talking about? I think we're using different time horizons. Like my yardstick for social change is measured in more like 100-200 years. Like pre-electrification and post-electrification. It's not 1880 anymore. Wait, what were talking about? What are social views about gays compared to 50 years ago? Much better, right? So idk. I actually don't believe this thing about the U.S. government going after gays. That's a thing Democrats say, but I don't buy it. The U.S. Supreme Court (which is run by conservatives) shot down an attempt to review the same-sex marriage decision this year. I got into a few arguments with liberals about that, like Trump got elected again so omg it's over for gays, and I was like nah, you'll see.

>never build trains and even personal vehicle roads are falling apart
The issue with passenger trains is that Americans rely heavily on air travel to move long distances. The distance from Dallas to San Francisco for example is roughly the distance between London and Moscow, people don't want to spend 37 hours on a train when they can be there in three hours on a plane. U.S. freight rail meanwhile might be the largest and certainly one of the most heavily used systems in the world just by tonnage (more similar to China here), like it's just staggering in the scale. Part of the issue is that the U.S. lost a lost of industrial jobs but that's not necessarily the same thing as production, because productivity improvements replace labor. Also railroads employ 1/10th of the people they used to.

>>2838652
>Speaking personally: my initial reaction to the invasion was "lol RIP little country" but then it survived and now we're in the 4th year of a pointless war so my reaction is "fuck you Putin for clogging up /leftypol/ with constant garbage about your boring war".
I think there is a decline in Russia sympathetic stuff in the West (not that it was that much, but on the fringe left/right) generally speaking because Russia let the war drag out like it did, and the Kremlin also just lied a lot.

>On top of that, I doubt most people here would actually enjoy to live in Russia or Iran, especially considering half of you are gay or trans. You would get beaten up by Putinists daily for being atheist communist faggots.

>But perhaps, the most important point is that, once multipolarity happens, what happens for us, gay communists?
You just repackaged "why do you support Palestinians, they throw gays off rooftops" propaganda.

>>2841374
>propaganda
Hamas kills queers, this isn't even debatable. Literally the only thing that makes them defensible from a left wing perspective is that they oppose Israel, if you support them unflinchingly solely on that basis you're admitting you care about opposing Israel over every other consideration.

>>2841386
undialectical. a static snapshot of existing conditions does not capture motion.

i would rather live in a rising country than declining one.

>>2841401
The direction of motion is not guaranteed and expecting people to sacrifice better for worse because "it'll be even better if you just wait" is unreasonable, since they personally have no way to ensure that happens. Make it better, then I'll believe you. Until then it's just propaganda.

>>2841386
And? If I'm the coolest cucumber, what are you going to do about it?

>>2841490
If all you believe in is might makes right you're just a fascist, and fascists have to be eradicated

>>2841494
>might makes right
Where are you getting that from?

I hoped the agency upgraded their hiring standards and stopped deploying baby libs and high school grads, that confuse consequentialism, the ethics necessary for change, with "might makes right", which has been used more to justify the status quo than anything else.

>>2841497
>consequentialism
You don't get to sit there and tell queer people they should be ok with being killed in an islamic theocracy because it's more important that Israel be destroyed at all costs. You can't seriously expect them to be ok with that, especially since Israel can't be defeated by external forces anyway.

>>2841505
I can and I will. I'm a communist. I'm already a target. I'm already told repeatedly reactionaries want me dead.

If you are a communist, too, being gay makes zero difference to you.

>>2841509
I'm not, actually. I don't believe humans are psychologically capable of being communal outside of small groups, and small communal groups can't defend themselves from larger ones, so the idea at best can only operate on a local level within a larger, non-communist socialist state.

>>2841512
>non-communist socialist state
Wonderful. I fucking love getting lectured by stupid fucking shitlibs. It's exactly what I need to improve my day. Shut the fuck up, and get the fuck out.

>>2841514
Make me

>>2841420
>The direction of motion is not guaranteed
the development of productive forces does, for which a prerequisite is sovereignty.
unless of course you are an idealist

People shouldn't really use "material conditions" as a synonym for "standard of living." Like I'm broke so my material conditions are different. Or maybe not? Or that's still pretty limited. We're going for something broader than that. More like what is the actual material structure of the society we're living in that shapes the experience of entire countries and social classes.

>>2841386
>Hamas kills queers
No they don't. Israel kills queer palestinians by incinerating them and tearing their bodies apart with ballistic missiles
>this isn't even debatable
It's very debatable, you are spreading hasbara and trying to paint hamas as reactionary, thoughtless barbarians. You are Epstein's bravest soldier

>Literally the only thing that makes them defensible from a left wing perspective is that they oppose Israel, if you support them unflinchingly solely on that basis you're admitting you care about opposing Israel over every other consideration.
Literally that's all that matters in this context. Literally you are a zionist agent, literally you are Epstein. Literally the life of a single hamas soldier is worth your life a thousand times over

>>2841386
They might be a bunch of religger fools but they don't kill queers. It's more a Saudi Arabia (BRICS) thing.

>>2841386
>>2842653
>>2842666
Every time war flares up, Hamas kills extrajudicially prisoners using the excuse of "traitors". There they kill lgbtq, socialists and fatah members.

>>2842698
Source: Netanyahu whispered it to me in my dreams.

>>2842698
>I might be completely wrong and spread hasbara propaganda against resistance forces, but I'm gonna cope and move the goalpost anyway
Kill yourself ziorat faggot

>>2842698
Even assuming they do, dealing with shitsrael takes the priority ATM

>>2842705
Fatah is well aware of the killings of their politicians and spies in Gaza

>On top of that, I doubt most people here would actually enjoy to live in Russia or Iran, especially considering half of you are gay or trans. You would get beaten up by Putinists daily for being atheist communist faggots.

i already live in a third world country retard.

>>2835509
>>2835515
>I don't care about historical contex
People are still taking OP seriously after this confession

>>2842800
Il not saying it because it's intellectually defensible but tactically. "Muh historical conditions" is second only to "muh material conditions" in campist infinite goalpost moving for why totalitarian fascist regimes are defnesible to the end of time so long as they oppose the USA.

>>2842750
Do you enjoy it though?