They refuse to be nuanced. Everything is "West bad, East Good", no matter the context, no matter what they do. It's evidently not ideologically informed but simply globe-level tribalism. There should be nothing difficult about saying, for instance, that in the context of the US vs Cuba, Russia is in the right, whereas in the context of Russia vs Ukraine, Russia is in the wrong.
campist is a thought terminating cliche coined by Max Shachtman, an American Trotskyist who refused to condemn the Bay of Pigs attempted counterrevolution against Cuba. He was the original "neither washington nor moscow but actually washington" type of guy. A "trot" that got expelled by Trotsky himself, and is responsible for every Trot stereotype in the West, including the turning into a neocon.
Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that Russia is "wrong" in Ukraine. Does that mean we should support the efforts of the West to absorb Ukraine into their orbit, and use it as a forward base for aggression against Russia?
>>2835155>the idea is invalid because the guy who coined it was wrong about CubaLike I said, you're not even engaging with the idea, just resorting to an ad hominim.
It makes sense to support Russia right now as they oppose US imperialism for the time being.
Thats the thing you liberals dont understand. The constant motion of the universe. We can support different states as they weaken the empire
>>2835157They can't use it for aggression against Russia. This idea is itself a fascist psyop. Russia has nuclear weapons, their opponents literally cannot attack them without committing suicide by nuke. They are immune to external attack.
>>2835160Would you have supported the Central Powers ?
>>2835167I support both Palestine AND Iran. I also support Russia's backing of Cuba and formerly of Venezuela. This does not mean everything Russia does is justifiable, and I won't support it just because they oppose the US in other circumstances. Ukrainians don't deserve to be sacrificed for that - they don't need to be. Russia can do the good things it does and not attack Ukraine, they aren't a package deal.
By the same token, though I support Iran fighting the USA, they have no leg to stand on when the Ukrainians help the Gulf States against them because they started it by giving the Russians Shaheds. They brought that specific aspect - the Ukrainian contribution, not the US attacking them in the first place - on themselves.
>>2835167I was looking for that exact quote.
Thank you anon
>>2835173NATO is the one sacrificing Ukrainians and Russians. To frame the war otherwise is to ignore all history since 1991.
>>2835154> in the context of Russia vs Ukraine, Russia is in the wrong.NATO started the war. sorry kid. you have some growing up to do.
>>2835177Neither side are going to win the war, they should sign peace, Russia has been unwilling to attempt even a temporary ceasefire.
>>2835180why so they can get rugpulled like the iranians?
>>2835187look at it from russia's perspective
>try to join NATO>get told no>everyone bordering you gets to join NATO>US gets to build bases in their countries and station missiles therehow would you view that?
>>2835192It doesn't matter, the Russians have nukes. They are under no threat, that's just an excuse.
>>2835190So they cant stop having teenagers die in a pointless war.
Ukraine isn't in shape to invade or attack anywhere.
>>2835195yeah but NATO started the civil war in ukraine and brought to power the people who most wanted war with Russia. Arestovich was saying as early as 2019 that war with Russia was "inevitable" before the invasion. the USA wanted to station nukes 30 minutes from Moscow in Ukraine.
>>2835198If they can’t defend themselves then they aren’t a real country and need to accept annexation
>>2835198>Ukraine isn't in shape to invade or attack anywhere.they were plenty in shape when they were attacking donbass in their 9 year US backed "anti terrorism operation" before 2022
>>2835201yeah get out of my conversation, you're on his side arguing from the standpoint of his strawman of me
>>2835201They can defend themselves, they can't attack; beyond that, do you think the same of Palestine ?
>>2835202Yes, and four years of war happaned
>>2835199A) It doesn't matter, they weren't going to nuke Russia. Russia is as wrong for invading Ukraine for that reason as the US would have been for invading Cuba when the Soviets put nukes there.
B) The US wasn't going to let Ukraine into NATO. This was already decided. They would pull it out of Russia's orbit, but not let it into NATO. That was never the plan. They claimed they would, but they were lying, and the Ukrainians are objectively stupid for believing their lies. That doesn't justify the Russians killing them though.
>>2835209>Yes, and four years of war happanedno, 12 years of war happened, pay attention
>>2835201So you're a fascist
>>2835213You explicitly mentionned 2022, beyond that the war isn't on the same scale now, it's the bloodiest war in europe since WW2, the front is essentially stagnant, peace is needed for both countries.
>>2835214A one world government is the end point of communism anyways, that doesn’t happen without genocide along the wylay
>>2835214he's not the original anon btw, he jumped into the conversation late just to false flag post
>>2835217well then maybe the USA shouldn't have couped the ukrainian government and turned it into a vehicle for a war of NATO expansion and encirclement of Russia.
>>2835218Russia isn't communist you fucking idiot. They're not installing any world communist government on any plausible timeline.
>>2835154>They refuse to be nuancedhilarious hypocrisy coming from the anti campist side that I have never ever seen make an argument without ridiculous strawmen and bad faith, just like this OP
but it doesnt matter, every single communist of note, and leftist thinker that I respect, is being accused of campism by useless retards nobody find interesting or relevant. Who really cares about the dishonest whining of the objectively pro imperialist "anti campists" repeating glowies mantras?
All the people that matters are on the side of multipolarity, all the actual anti imperialists critically support russia against nato, and history is proving them right.
>>2835221Closer to it than NATO
>>2835220Again, it doesn't matter. Russia can vaporise every single NATO country, it doesn't matter if all of Europe is part of NATO, it changes nothing.
>>2835220>>2835222I don't support the USA either, NATO should have been disbanded after the cold war, and there was never a reason to antagonize the russians when they were weak.
But that doesn't make this war any good either, teenagers are spilling their blood in tranches for inches of territories, there is no victory for either country and peace is necessary.
>>2835195>It doesn't matter,it doesn't matter that the USA couped ukraine, caused a civil war there? when will the USA apologize for its aggression against ukraine and stop supporting azovites and withdraw its CIA agents?
>>2835224Posting Stalin is not going to get me to agree with you since, you know, I'm not a Stalinist
>>2835162>he think russia would have nuked ukraine if the banderites had attacked crimeatypical natoid, they project their own inhumanity on their enemies
>>2835226you really think letting the USA station nukes 30 minutes from moscow is meaningless in the context of nuclear war?
>>2835230>stalinism is when you agree with a stalin quoteyou could try reading the argument. your argument is basically "IRAN ISNT HECKIN COMMUNIST SO I SUPPORT ISRAEL!!!!"
>>2835229Yes. It just means they probably can't be intercepted, which is fine, because MAD is a good thing, it keeps the nukes from flying.
>>2835234I support Iran only in the context of fighting Israel. But the Iranian government itself is the definition of reactionary and if the Iranian people decide to practice some good old Leninist revolutionary defeatism to bring it down I wouldn't object, so long as the rebels aren't literal CIA puppets (which isn't as much of a threat as you think given CIA proxies have turned on the US many times).
>>2835232Nuclear defence is the best defence. It prevents wars from happening in the first place.
>>2835162It could still be used as a missile base, listening post, or staging area for covert action. A NATO military presence there would also be advantageous for applying pressure in diplomacy and negotiations. This isn't even getting into the Western designs on Ukraine itself, and its aims to cement their neo-colonial dominance of it. So tell me, should we support these efforts?
>>2835238ok so you do understand critical support. and I only support russia in the context of fighting US-backed neo nazis and CIA agents who started the ukrainian civil war and attacked donbass starting in 2014.
>>2835241Excuses, all of it. North Korea lives next to a US ally filled with US troops and US missiles and yet the US cannot fuck with them, because they have nukes. It's that simple. Russia have hundreds of times more nukes than North Korea, they have absolutely nothing to worry about. This idea they need to occupy neighbouring countries is nothing but imperial propaganda - there is absolutely no national security need for them to do so.
>actual context provided
<EXCUSES, ALL OF IT
<IT DOESNT MATTER LOL
you are an idealist and your brain is dogshit
>>2835247>This idea they need to occupy neighbouring countries is nothing but imperial propagandaI'm not talking about the justification for the invasion. I'm already conceding for the sake of this discussion that it's wrong and Russia is bad. I'm asking an entirely separate question, which is whether we should be supporting NATO in its efforts in Ukraine.
>>2835242Given the Russians are the imperial power in this context, the violence in the Donbass was justified, since it was a Russian plot to Georgia-fy Ukraine (that is, occupy parts of it for trying to leave their orbit).
>>2835154>in the context of Russia vs Ukraine, Russia is in the wrongEvery NATO aspirant country should be treated like a NATO country. Every NATO country should be invaded.
>>2835251Yes, but only for the purposes of opposing Russia. NATO itself needs to be done away with since it's literally an American extortion racket.
>>2835254Then you have no right to complain that NATO supports Ukraine. You're literally admitting you'll attack them next, so they might as well help kill you before you get there.
>>2835255>Yes, but only for the purposes of opposing RussiaOkay, how do you think a NATO victory in Ukraine will advance the socialist cause?
>>2835258It will keep a country independent of Russia. That gives them a better chance of being socialist (even if that's still exceedingly unlikely to happen) than if they were annexed by Russia, since Russia is even less likely to ever be socialist due to its leadership being totally unaccountable to the public. But that's not the primary reason anyway - you shouldn't support one capitalist country attacking another because neither are socialist, you're getting people killed for no reason. In such cases, the party in the wrong is the one who attacks the other, purely because if they hadn't, no one would have died and, you know, people generally like being alive.
>>2835256I literally never complained about, though? Eat shit and die.
>>2835266Same to you. I hope Putin drafts you and the Ukrainians kill you.
>>2835256>Then you have no right to complain that NATO supports Ukraineyou know who does though? ukrainians? because that "support" tore their country in half and plunged them into civil war before the russians did anything LOL
>>2835228dodged all 9 questions award
>>2835269This is all just a pile of Russian propaganda you've been spouting for 12 years now, I'm not gonna start believing it now.
>>2835270Seethe, Western Redditor. The day their volunteers got Kalibr'd was a good day.
>>2835270tank anon is a ukrainian living in canada retard. maybe you should apologize since you are insulting one of the ukrainians you allegedly care so much about
>>2835274There's no proof that ever happened that isn't from Russia and no, nothing you post will convince me otherwise.
>>2835273>noticing the shit NATO does is russian propagandathis is not a very high quality or convincing argument for anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
>>2835276I don't care about Ukrainians that side with Russia. They are, de facto, Russians.
>>2835278>nothing you post will convince me otherwise.so you're stupid and proud of it
>>2835278You mean the photos posted by the Kalibr'd REDDITORS THEMSELVES isn't proof?
LMFAO
Imagine coming on /leftypol/ to cheer on American foreign policy.
>>2835280>I don't care about Ukrainians that side with Russia. so you dont' care about the entire eastern half of ukraine, i.e. the half that builds statues to lenin instead of statues to nazi collaborator stepan bandera
>>2835279Because I've been arguing with Russians about this crap for a decade and I'm not interested anymore since you're impervious to argumentation on this anyway. There's no point in arguing about it anymore, I just dismiss anyone that says it as an enemy and move on.
>>2835283They don't support Lenin because he was a communist, they support him because he was Russian. Same reason most Ukrainians who like Bandera like him - not because he was a Nazi, but because he was Ukrainian. This is just nationalist horseshit.
>>2835284>NATO dindu nuffin and anyone who says otherwise is a heckin RUSSKIcracker i am an american and i am against EVERYTHING my government does ESPECIALLY the shit it does in other people's countries, and ESPECIALLY arming neo nazis and plunging ukraine into civil war all so they can expand NATO and get some donbass minerals. they also fucked ukraine over with IMF loans which is why they couped yanukovych.
>>2835285>They don't support Lenin because he was a communist, they support him because he was Russian. Same reason most Ukrainians who like Bandera like him - not because he was a Nazi, but because he was Ukrainian. This is just nationalist horseshit.but bandera rolled out the red carpet for nazi invaders and lenin recognized ukraine, so shouldn't it be the other way around? unless… you're stupid and talking out of your ass. but that's impossible. right?
as an american i approach this issue with an "america first" mindset… no not the way nick fuentes means it, i mean when it comes to imperialism, the fault lies with america first. Russia/Ukraine? America's fault. Iran/Israel? America's fault.
>>2835286I quite literally admitted the Americans tricked the Ukrainians into becoming their proxy by lying about letting them into NATO, and they were stupid to fall for it. But the only reason that lie worked is because Ukrainians are sick of being Russian puppets. Regardless, a pro-American Ukraine isn't a threat to Russia, it just offends Russian imperialists so, as imperialists are wont to do, they resorted to violence to correct the situation. If Russia had never attacked them, I'd be sitting here arguing Ukraine is retarded for trying to join America's bitch club and they should act like an independent country instead of switching their overlord.
>>2835264>That gives them a better chance of being socialistDoes it? Ukraine is far more anti-communist than Russia is. In Ukraine virtually all socialist parties are illegal, while in Russia they are at least allowed to exist. Russian nationalism makes cynical use of the USSR, and even though they strip it of its revolutionary content this at the very least overcomes the kneejerk anti-communism which is actively promoted in Ukrainian nationalism. Ukraine also has a much stronger fascist movement that is violently opposed to anything remotely leftist. Finally, the entire object of NATOs efforts in Ukraine is to bring the country into their orbit. Do you think a NATO satellite government is going to be amenable to any kind of socialist organizing? Then there is the question of the domestic front in NATO countries themselves. Part of the reason why Lenin advocated revolutionary defeatism in reactionary wars is that it delegitimizes the existing regime. Consider the political implications for the imperialist governments of the West if they spend all this money on an imperialist war as their own citizens struggle, only for it to all come to nothing. Consider the effects that a general retreat of Western imperialism would have on the ability of the ruling class to placate the workers with cheap commodities.
>Russia is even less likely to ever be socialist due to its leadership being totally unaccountable to the publicHistorically speaking the opposite is true actually. There has never been a communist revolution in a bourgeois democracy, only ever in an autocracy of one kind or another.
>In such cases, the party in the wrong is the one who attacks the otherI don't disagree with your moral framing comrade, but I'm asking you to think about it in practical terms. I'm also not really saying you need to "support" Russia. You just need to oppose NATO.
>>2835293I DO oppose NATO. But again, this isn't a valid excuse for Russia to kill Ukrainians, because NATO isn't a threat to Russia since Russia is immune to attack. In terms of *actually* forming a socialist state you *might* be correct, but it would first require the Russians themselves turn on Putin and become socialist again - Ukraine itself would not really have a say in whether that happens and it's very unlikely, sorry to say. And in any case, a socialist Russia trying to take Ukraine by force would just keep Ukraine perpetually and forever reactionary, since they would associate socialism with Russian domination (it's why they're so anti-communist as it is). A Ukraine in the EU orbit, or even in the EU itself, is more likely, outside of just remaining a corrupt oligarchy, to become a social democracy, which isn't really socialist, but it's 'more' socialist than Russia, and thus a preferable outcome.
>>2835292>yeah, I worship Nazi collaborators>but if I do, it's your faultLmfao. Fuck you and die.
>>2835305You'll have to kill me yourself. I'll wait. You'll have to get past the Ukrainian drones first of course.
>>2835309Are you the butthurt belter that went to live in Ukraine or something?
>>2835311I'm not doxing myself but nice try
>>2835314you live in langley virginia like most "anti" campists
>>2835314It would explain a lot.
>It's evidently not ideologically informed but simply globe-level tribalism>>the idea is invalid because the guy who coined it was wrong about Cuba>This is all just a pile of Russian propaganda you've been spouting for 12 years now, I'm not gonna start believing it now.>nothing you post will convince me otherwise>There's no point in arguing about it anymore, I just dismiss anyone that says it as an enemy and move onThe projection and complete lack of self-awareness, for one.
>right vs wrong
fuck…
>>2835157>use it as a forward base for aggression against Russia?How do ziggers genuinely believe this?
>>2835292>I quite literally admitted the Americans tricked the Ukrainians into becoming their proxy by lying about letting them into NATO, and they were stupid to fall for it. But the only reason that lie worked is because Ukrainians are sick of being Russian puppets. This was basically Trotsky's position. Like the Kremlin just being dumb and brutal Bonapartists created so much disillusionment in Ukraine that the situation naturally shifted to "the most reactionary Ukrainian cliques who express their 'nationalism' by seeking to sell the Ukrainian people to one imperialism or another." He thought the solution would be in a revolution across Europe that would establish a socialist federation called the Soviet United States of Europe that would also regenerate the USSR. Well, that didn't happen so here we are.
>>2835293>Russian nationalism makes cynical use of the USSR, and even though they strip it of its revolutionary content this at the very least overcomes the kneejerk anti-communism which is actively promoted in Ukrainian nationalism.These might be related things though. Like Russia makes cynical use of the USSR / communism while stripped of revolutionary content and we're surprised Ukrainians have a kneejerk anti-communist attitude? What would you expect would happen in the peripheral countries of the USSR? Who is this supposed to convince? Not Ukrainians. Like there's just a price that has to be paid for that. It's not good though but use your brain.
It's hard to take any of this "critical support" seriously. How is anyone supporting Russia, Iran, China? Are you sending money or arms? Offering specialized labor? Becoming a merc? I guess there was that funny guy who said he spent hundreds of dollars on Chinese consumer electronics.
>>2835330How come ideology originally meant belief system and then Marxists said it actually means fake BS you think you can just reinvent common words and everyone has to go along with it huh.
>I sure love skinhead thugs burning people alive at the behest of the CIA to create a reign of terror over the people.
This is literally what you say whenever you say you support the maidan regime because that's what it is. Actual Ukrainians hate it, that's why so many of them left. Even pro-regime people just see it as a vehicle to facilitate their relocation to higher GDP countries and what happens to the people left is not their problem. It's inherently a suicidal project, as is liberalism for everyone who isn't Jeffrey Epstein and his club in general.
>>2835154>Everything is "West bad, East Good", no matter the context, no matter what they doIts actually west bad, specifically because of the historical context, explicitly because what they have done
>>2835509I don't care about historical context, I only care about people alive now and their present conditions. I'm not interested in fighting to avenge people who are already dead or whatever, that kind of logic can be used to excuse never moving past any historical event ever and thus locking countries into being eternal enemies forever.
>>2835515I guess the 5 ongoing wars of western aggression and ongoing military and economic pressure on tens of countries are not relevant to the current state of affairs.
>>2835515>I don't care about historical context<I only care about people alive now and their present conditionsYou cannot understand the latter without understanding the former. Historical context matters because it helps us understand why things developed the way they did, making the present-day situation easier to correctly interpret.
>>2835154Every single western puppet state is part of the same system. I don't understand how retarded you have to be to not get it when this is publicly outlined in all media and policy papers. South Korea and Ukraine are the same as Israel functionally.
>>2835360>>2835330how do you have nothing to contribute to the conversation except smug negation
>>2835523They're not, that is propaganda. Israel has a privileged position vis-a-vis the US, America's enemies argue otherwise simply so they can justify attacking whatever country they want to attack because its existence is an existential threat or whatever the fuck.
>>2835531Ukraine and all other puppets themselves claim they support Israel. I don't know why this is difficult to swallow for you.
>>2835532>Ukraine and all other puppets themselves claim they support Israel. I don't know why this is difficult to swallow for you.this isn't pointed out often enough. ukrainian government even joined the NATO coalition in the iraq war and shed blood for the zionists
>>2835525How do you have nothing to contribute wxcept your own retardation
>>2835552Just revenge for the islamic slave trade
>11 hours ago
>109 replies
Kek. Good job baiting the cattle op
>being in le campism bad camp
Insanely giga retarded holy shit
>>2835584You are a radlib. You are incapable of escaping bourgeois ideology. The eternal collaborator, capitulator.
>>2835605>I am in the enemy camp Obviously
>>2835606Make sure to give your comrade Sanders good head as Platner rails you in the ass.
>>2835613Sanders and Platner are in your camp friendo, they despise nothing more than campism. First grade anti campists. That is to say, they are american chauvinists
>>2835620Oh really? Is that why your performative Dengist-ThirdWorldists "vanguard" support their rise "tactically"?
Play Frontist games win bourgeois prices, liberal.
>>2835366>and we're surprised Ukrainians have a kneejerk anti-communist attitude?That level of anti-communism isn't a natural and inevitable outgrowth of the concept of Ukrainian nationhood. Polls from just a few years before Maidan show that much (often a majority) of the country had positive views of the USSR. Views started to change following the coup and the institutionalization of Banderite ideology.
>>2835304>But again, this isn't a valid excuse for Russia to kill UkrainiansWho said it was? I'm not talking about whether or not the invasion was justified here. I'm talking about how socialists should relate to the NATO war effort. It wasn't justified for Germany to invade Belgium in WW1 either, but that doesn't mean the British war effort was worth supporting.
>to become a social democracy, which isn't really socialist, but it's 'more' socialist than Russia, and thus a preferable outcomeI'm not convinced by this at all. The West has pretty limited tolerance for social democracy outside the imperial core in the first place, so I don't think there's any basis for thinking that a pro-Western government is more likely to go this way than a pro-Russian one. In fact, the current regime in Ukraine is pretty openly hostile to anything remotely socialist, and virtually the entire Ukrainian left was banned for being "pro-Russian."
But even leaving that aside, there is no historical precedent for social democracy leading to socialism, and there is ample precedent for Western aligned social democratic governments being dogs of the empire.
>>2835360Gee, I wonder why somebody might think this.
>>2835622>performative Dengist-ThirdWorldists "vanguard" support their rise "tactically"? >Talking about some news articles that barely express any stance at all Lmfao actually insane retard
Ukraine needs to bleed Russia white. They're an indigenous nation fighting a colonial invader.
>>2835678Anon. If you cant even formulate your own arguments and have to post a screencap of some sad shutin neet from twitter, just don't bother posting at all.
Unironically you would be banned with a half just janniteriate.
>>2835678Not only is LARPing great, but people decrying LARPing is also great because it is a 100% guaranteed way of identifying the enemy LARP. The whole purpose of xitter is figuring out which way to LARP; when someone says LARPing is bad, the answer is "fantasize about killing him in the shower"
>>2835678Based take. Campism is absolutely the moral position to take.
>OP says water is wet and thread has 100 replies now.
>>2835575>noticing what NATO does makes you cattle, and the more you notice, the more cattle you areshut the fuck up imperialist
>>2835224God I hate this fucking poster so much it is unreal.
Imagine thinking "Russia is communist" because some retarded uyghur said something that is demonstrably false almost 100 years ago.
>>2835697>Imagine thinking "Russia is communist"not the argument being made
>>2835695You can remove water from water, it's called boiling it.
>>2835696noticing how the only way campists can sustain their retardation is by random accusations of belonging to the other camp does not make me an imperialist
>>2835697>you think Russia is communistno here is what I think: NATO is doing imperialism against both Russia and Ukraine, and framing the war in NATO's terms is imperialist
>what stalin said is demonstrably falsewhy? demonstrate it if it is demonstrable.
>>2835702the cause of this war is NATO destabilizing Ukraine, plunging it into civil war, and using the most reactionary elements of AFU to start a second war with Russia, you not only deny the historicity of this and plug your ears to any context, you dismiss it all as a mere "inter-imperialist war" and claim anyone who understands this is "campist." It is so mind bendingly obvious that this narrative benefits the imperialist bloc with the most leverage over the planet right now: NATO. Russia and Ukraine are not communist and proving that they are is a goalpost only the retarded """"anti""""" campists insist on when they need to derail the conversation for the 10th time away from the historical context of the present moment which they openly claim by the way to not care about:
>>2835515 >>2835684I already did lol, I just thought this tweet was sussinctly put and relevant to the thread. No need to seethe about it so much and call for my banning lmfao
>>2835685It's all larp until it's not anon. Also the audacity of saying this while posting on a political anonymous imageboard, go organize or smt lol
>>2835693Indeed, it makes it very clear where everyone stands
>>2835678I'd probably be considered a "campist" but this is a retarded take. Not all disagreement makes somebody a class enemy or impossible to cooperate with.
>>2835727You're always toeing this line between libbed up and based sabo anon. Never really taking a stance. Unfortunately that means you fall into the wrong camp
>>2835722just plundering everyone and being like "my way of life is superior but please do not ask me to consider what happens when I run out of people to plunder."
>>2835731I do take a stance, which is firmly in the multipolarist camp. I'm just not a chan-brained autist who treats all disagreement as betrayal. You people really need to work on being able to entertain an idea without accepting it, and more importantly understanding that reasonable, well-intentioned people can be wrong.
>>2835678Musk's bravest bot
>>2835739This is what I mean with you being libbed up, as if anyone's internal justification of their demonic political position matters at all, rather than where they actually stand in reality. Do you support the empire or not? That's what matters, not wether you can "entertain an idea" or wether "well intentioned" people "can be wrong"
>>2835746Epstein's bravest soldier
>>2835154Yes, i too oppose both israeli and gazan imperialism
>>2835747Very illustrative anon. I will go on presuming this is what every "anti"-campist believes
>>2835752>Do you support the empire or notWhich one?
>>2835752>as if anyone's internal justification of their demonic political position matters at allIt absolutely matters, because somebody who is simply mistaken can be convinced and brought over to your side, whereas somebody who is unreasonable or malicious cannot. The vast majority of workers we need to win over are not communists, or even anti-imperialists. Are you saying we should treat them all as enemies and make no effort to bring them over?
>>2835764
Except I didn't because Canada had no troops in Afghanistan while I was in, and I was a reservist which meant I couldn't be deployed involuntarily. Get new material.
>>2835762The vast majority of workers are malicious and permanently libbed up, socialism is drug intervention for addicts, 51-50, forced sobriety.
>>2835769This is tantamount to defeatism. No revolution can succeed without the participation of the majority.
>>2835771Wrong, you only ever need 3% of any population to overthrow a government and the rest will be forced to follow. Keep the addicts locked in rehab and fewer relapses happen.
>>2835774Are you really peddling rightoid myths now?
>>2835777Which one? That addiction is bad and most workers are addicted to the system?
>>2835777It's actually 6-7% but alright.
>>2835781The "3%" meme peddled by American fascists.
>>2835783I'm sure there is, and I won't defend it in the slightest. Canada is an imperialist country with an imperialist army, I have nothing good to say about it. That doesn't change the fact that I never went to Afghanistan, never shot at anybody, never left my home province, and never did anything other than train and collect a paycheck. It's pretty telling that you have to make up nonsense that I "volunteered to kill Afghans" because if you told people what I actually did (volunteered for a reserve unit in peacetime that never deployed and left as soon as my training was complete) nobody would be bothered by it.
>>2835761The only one that exists obviously. It goes by many names, the USraeli NATO empire or more simply put the Epstein Empire
>>2835762>We need to like uuuuhhh convince peopleWe are not prosteletizers anon, you are wasting your breath. Here's a little Lenin for you
<Whoever imagines that socialism can be achieved by one person convincing another, and that one a third, is at best an infant, or else a political hypocrite; and, of course, the majority of those who speak on political platforms belong to the latter category.The majority of workers have no idea wtf is "campism" or any other niche political mumbo-jumbo. There's no need to worry about designating them as enemies or not. If they are outspoken political agitators who proclaim an issue with "campism" we can assume they have some knowledge of geopolitik and willfully chose the wrong camp. Infantalizing them with some "they know not what they do" type shit is useless, if not dangerous
>>2835764That explains a lot actually
>>2835787>transhumanist colorsNever beating allegations lol
>>2835787You were part of a criminal organization, you were a mafia accountant instead of a hit man, you’re still guilty of all the organization’s crimes as per RICO
>>2835788<Whoever imagines that socialism can be achieved by one person convincing another, and that one a third, is at best an infant, or else a political hypocriteRight and what exactly do you think is the meaning of this passage? That we shouldn't speak to workers? That we shouldn't spread socialist ideas? That we shouldn't participate in their struggles or advocate for their interests? Lenin's point here is that you need dedicated and organized party work, you can't just expect socialism to spread on its own through spontaneous discussion. He isn't saying that we shouldn't try to convince people or win them over because that makes no sense.
>If they are outspoken political agitators who proclaim an issue with "campism" we can assume they have some knowledge of geopolitik and willfully chose the wrong camp.Again, this is just some kind of bizarre solipsism that is incapable of conceiving how a person can be mistaken about something without being stupid or malicious. Why must we assume that they "willfully" chose the wrong camp? Why do you assume that they can't be brought into the right camp? Mao said "As for people who are politically backward, Communists should not slight or despise them, but should befriend them, unite with them, convince them and encourage them to go forward." If you don't believe such a thing is possible then you're effectively conceding all mass struggle, since in a bourgeois society most people, including workers, hold bourgeois ideas. The whole point of a vanguard party is to lead them out of this false consciousness, not treat them as an enemy for being trapped in it.
>>2835793>you were a mafia accountant instead of a hit manI was in the infantry actually, I didn't do support work. I shot at targets, dicked around in the woods, and got paid. Then I took all those resources they invested in me and left. Mathematically speaking I was a net loss for them.
>>2835793>>2835789Would you say that to Red Army soldiers and commanders that came from the imperial army?
>>2835797Being bad at your job doesn’t make you less guilty of membership in a criminal organization
>>2835798Those were conscripts, not volunteers
>>2835801There were, in fact, volunteers in the imperial army, even if most of the soldiers weren't. Many of them went over to the red army. Would you say that to them?
>>2835801I wasn't bad at my job, I was pretty good at it actually. It's just that I deliberately joined in a capacity that I knew wouldn't meaningfully contribute to Western imperialism and allow me to get out as soon as I got what I wanted.
>Those were conscripts, not volunteersBoth Lenin and Mao were strong advocates of bringing over enemy soldiers to their side in their respective civil wars. Agitation and infiltration of the military was mandatory praxis for membership in the Comintern. Can you find my a single statement by Lenin, Mao, or in Comintern literature making a distinction between volunteers and conscripts?
>>2835798I just find it Ironic they picked colors associated with the Trans movement for their patriot logo.
>>2835804Proudly, I’d call them murderous thugs to their faces. Soldiers are cops for overseas, if you hate cops you should hate troops more.
>>2835805Lenin and Mao’s revolutions were both betrayed and subverted and ultimately recouped by capitalist hegemony, taking on turncoats is part of why.
>>2835810>taking on turncoats is part of whyYeah man I'm sure there were tons of Tsarist officers still running around in 1991.
>>2835727That’s highly dependent on how the “consensus” around the subject is formed, there has to be a pre-existing discussion there to work within to expand on from a Marxist perspective. I.e “is it fair that property owners make SO much money” is a highly contested debate, which we can use to introduce our perspective.
For a topic like Russia, there’s no variance in the consensus. Russia *is* evil incarnate as a country, at best you get people arguing it’s not the West’s role to play superhero or saying Russia is unashamedly evil but that’s based and the West should emulate that (despite the irony of that). If you’re going to dispute that with people, it’s unfortunately going to be a guns-out discussion regardless of how open you initially aim to be.
>>2835812
>Even ignoring the fact that the Russian imperial army throughout its entire existence wasn’t responsible for even one one-thousandth of the atrocities that NATO committed in Afghanistan alone
You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.
>Sabbotabby saw a volunteer SS which had murdered and tortured countless innocents
Uh huh. Can you tell me the basic drill a NATO infantry squad would employ to engage an MBT?
>>2835796God I knew you were gonna respond with some "so we shouldn't talk to anyone???!!?" type shit. That's not what either Lenin is saying in that quote or I am saying in that post. You are the one who imagined some kind mass of dedicated anticampist workers that need to be convinced. I'm telling you, that's nonsense. They dont need to be "convinced" of anything, they need to be able to see with their own eyes and ears that the communist party works for their interests, that's all the convincing they need. This isn't some Charlie Kirk "change my mind" situation lol.
The cope about solipsism and people's intentions and idk what is also nonsense, it's just not important. If people are dedicated enough politically to hold and affirm "anti"campism as a political position, there's very little you are going to be able to do to dissuade them from that. Because at that point they are already bought in. If you wanna go and try to convince outspoken "anti"campists of their wrong position, be my guest, I think you'd be wasting your time.
>>2835820>You are the one who imagined some kind mass of dedicated anticampist workers that need to be convinced.It's worse than that actually, since most workers will internalize not just anti-campist ideas but overtly imperialist ones.
>They dont need to be "convinced" of anything, they need to be able to see with their own eyes and ears that the communist party works for their interests, that's all the convincing they need. That's how you end up with SPD style social imperialism. It's not enough to just fight for people's everyday needs, you need to get them to actually understand how these fit into systemic problems. Social democrats are perfectly capable of fighting for their every day needs as well, and unlike communists they won't challenge their preconceived notions on foreign policy issues. Without imparting a full and clear eyed understanding of the whole system in both its domestic and international fronts, you just end up with economism and social imperialism, pursuit of immediate gain without any serious rebellion against capitalism.
>>2835825
>Nobody cares that you can rattle off basic military trivia you googled
Wow so which is it? Am I an SS death squad commando or an armchair warrior with no actual military knowledge or experience? It was a trick question btw, under standard order of battle in most NATO armies, anti-tank weapons are part of the platoon weapons detachment and not deployed at the squad level. A tank would shrug off any squad anti-armour weapons and get your ass. You wanna larp about revolution but you need to understand that war is a profession, and if you don't know what you're doing you will lose. That's why I joined the military, because I figured that every communist should have military experience and training. Can you give me a good reason why we shouldn't?
>>2835818>Can you tell me the basic drill a NATO infantry squad would employ to engage an MBT?- Call in airstrike
- Repeat step 1.
NATO sucks at war. They are good at bombing shit.
>>2835831Communist guerrillas don't get air cover, and if you're gonna engage a Leopard you better know the difference between an M72 and a Carl Gustav.
>>2835824>It's worse than that actually, since most workers will internalize not just anti-campist ideas but overtly imperialist ones.They might internalize reactionary ideas sure, but that's different than being an outspoken reactionary. You might as well start trying to convince the KKK that their ideas are wrong. Not that it's impossible, but it's just a waste of effort imo
>SPD and socdems In essence I am saying that the communist party needs to represent the workers better than any socdem can. Which can be done because socdems are just imperialist stooges, who offer little to nothing but concession and capitulation. But it's not going to happen by playing nice with them and pretending their position isn't so different from ours. People will change their minds, but being scared of calling anticampist/liberals/socdems the enemy is not gonna do it
>>2835834I thought you were asking about NAFO fags. I gave you my answer. Guerillas need to be supported by MANPADS and MSAMS which would be provided by AES countries.
>>2835837>You might as well start trying to convince the KKK that their ideas are wrong. Come on man, you can't possibly think that being put off by a Russian invasion of Ukraine is the same as wanting to exterminate Black people. Do you honestly, genuinely believe that a person cannot be mistaken without being stupid or malicious? Do you honestly believe that it's impossible to change people's mind about anything? If that's the case then one wonders why Lenin spilled so much ink not just telling people that Kautsky and the SPD were wrong about WW1, but laying out exactly why they were wrong. What would be the point of this if not to convince people of the correctness of the Bolshevik line? What about fence sitters, or people with doubts?
>People will change their minds, but being scared of calling anticampist/liberals/socdems the enemy is not gonna do itAs a movement they are our enemies in the grand scheme of things, but this doesn't mean that every individual that falls into that camp is an intractable reactionary. The best way to go about things is assume good faith engagement and work to correct incorrect views. It becomes clear pretty quickly when people are engaging in bad faith or hold their positions out of malicious motivation, rather than just ignorance or misconception.
>>2835201No such thing as a "real" country. All nations are illegitimate
>>2835706Acknowledging NATO and Washington as the foremost historical cause of the war is not the campist position I reject entirely. Where I differ from (You) is that I don't defend the right of the loser-bourgeoisie in Moscow to protect their imperialist interests - infringed upon by NATO - at the expense of millions displaced and killed in the war. To rationalize this state of things is to accept the capitalist framework of competition between powers as legitimate.
>>2835848
>and you’re actively cheering on their extermination
Can you point a single pro-Ukrainian or pro-NATO post I've made here or anywhere else on the board? I spend the entire first half of the thread arguing for revolutionary defeatism in Western countries, and for why Russian victory is preferable for socialists.
>>2835839>Do you honestly, genuinely believe that a person cannot be mistaken without being stupid or malicious? Do you honestly believe that it's impossible to change people's mind about anything? I believe it doesn't matter and that you're concerned about nothing. Also the kkk example is not to compare morality, but as an illustration of the futility of your argument
>What would be the point of this if not to convince people of the correctness of the Bolshevik line? What about fence sitters, or people with doubts? To illustrate the correct line from the wrong line, not to convince people like a prosteletizer. Fence sitters and people with doubts are not the outspoken anticampists we're talking about and if they are then they are the enemy in practice. Should they change their mind and change sides that's good, but not really something to expect for most people imo
>As a movement they are our enemies in the grand scheme of things,Exactly
>butIrrelevant
>>2835575Thank you I do try
>>2835705You can tap it all you want, it's not changing my mind. This mindset is a psyop by enemies of the United States to gather support for themselves, and conveniently, since barring extraordinary circumstances the US isn't going anywhere, that means campists have an eternal bogeyman that all other considerations can be subordinated to *literally* indefinitely, which, conveniently, entails indefinite support for absolutely anyone who opposes the US no matter who they are or what they do. Sorry, but if you operate this way you are quite literally demonstrating you put being anti-American before anything else, which means you *will* be an eternal simp for reactionary forces and a socialist only in theory, because barring a nuclear holocaust or civil war in the US, the thing preventing you from turning on everyone you "critically support" is never going away.
>>2835848
>I hate the Americans so much I want them to have a race war with each other
>Russians are being genocided they HAVE to destroy Ukraine
See, this kind of crap is why I'm done with debating people like you. I've been doing it for a decade and it does no good, either because you're paid to shill this crap by glowies or you're too emotionally invested likely due to nationalism. You don't even have empathy for groups oppressed within the US anymore, you've just lumped them all into the same group and cheer if intragroup factionalism gets them killed. You are prioritising state-on-state conflict over the people those states lord over.
I can't help but look at a lot of campists and see proto-ᴉuᴉlossnWs. People who have gotten too invested in a nationalist project and now care more about the state they support (and, more importantly, the states they oppose) and no longer centre the masses in their thoughts. It will not lead anywhere good.
>>2835870>but as an illustration of the futility of your argument It's a poor illustration. The motivations in being part of the KKK are inherently reactionary and malicious. But somebody can be opposed to the Russian invasion due to any number of mistaken beliefs, none of which need to be rooted in a pro-imperialist worldview. They can mistakenly believe that Russia is an imperialist country, and incorrectly perceive this as an inter-imperialist conflict. If they hold such a mistaken view of the facts, then as far as they are aware their position isn't a rejection of Leninism and anti-imperialism, but an affirmation of it. Or they may hold the principle that military action against other states should always be condemned, and perhaps even support Venezuela, Cuba, Palestine, and Iran alongside Ukraine out of the same logic. This is why these distinctions are important, because somebody can be brought over to our camp if their views result from relatively minor deficiencies in their understanding of theory or the facts, but are still motivated by the same goals and principles as us. Bringing them over from the KKK would require a total overhaul of their entire worldview and value system.
>To illustrate the correct line from the wrong lineWhat's the point of doing this if not to get people to adopt the correct line and reject the wrong line? If we follow your reasoning, anybody who holds the wrong line is beyond reaching anyways, so there's no point arguing against it.
>Should they change their mind and change sides that's good, but not really something to expect for most people imo Idk man I guess it's just a question of how optimistic you are, but I see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy if you just assume that there's no point to trying. Even if you aren't going to convince the person you're arguing against, you should still consider the effect presenting your arguments can have on observers. Lenin knew he wasn't going to change Kautsky's mind, but he understood that in making his arguments rank and file workers or SPD/RSDLP members might be convinced.
>>2835887Reactionary infighting is a good thing and should be actively encouraged especially when the reactionaries in question are Americans. Complicity in the NATO Epstein Reich matters more than whatever idpol nonsense you can conjure up and fascists shouldn’t be cater to just because they happen to be black
>>2835801>Being bad at your job doesn’t make you less guilty of membership in a criminal organization this is a retarded and moralist mindset to be honest. if a glowie infiltrated a communist org and sabotaged it from the inside, his colleagues would congratulate him, not say he is "guilty of communism". this kind of retarded moralism is exactly what makes you a loser at the end of the day. you pretend you are a prosecutor in a tribunal online and try to make everything about the personal records of individual anons instead of class struggle. you are not a serious person. if you want sabocat to pay for his crimes you'll have to actually get your hands on him IRL. but you can't, you won't, so you'll just point the finger online until your hair turns gray and falls out. you are a shrieking clown. you will never be in the cheka.
>>2835892They shouldn't. The solution, however, is not to become the US yourself. This is like defending Japan in WW2 for invading China because China was backed by the West - it doesn't fucking matter they were backed by the West (who were outright shameless imperialists back then), that doesn't justify a violent, genocidal land grab.
Also LMAOing at “oppressed groups in the US”
You terrorize the entire world and think nothing of the countless millions enslaved and killed to sustain your lifestyles, but somehow you’re the victims?
Make it make sense
>>2835895A violently white supremacist United States would be *even more* violent towards the outside world you idiot. I can't believe you're gonna sit here and cheer for it just because it would lead to the deaths of millions of Americans too. You've lost the plot.
>>2835897>The solution, however, is not to become the US yourself.ok hit me up when China or Russia or Iran or the DPRK has 800 military bases, is constantly overthrowing democratically elected leaders to prevent even the most basic succdem reforms, runs secret torture dungeons on every continent, and claims the right to pre-emptively strike people whenever it wants. Nobody else comes close to acting like the USA yet. Not even China. You are counting chickens before they hatch.
>>2835899Unlikely since most “white supremacists” (let’s be honest they’re mostly just paleocons) are isolationist types, and besides that the goal is to completely dismantle the west so that it cannot threaten the world again. This will by necessity require mass liquidations of reactionaries. Anything less is trying to collaborate with fascism, which makes you a fascist yourself. Would you like to see what communists do to people like you?
>>2835900Have I criticised China or North Korea ONCE in this fucking thread? No, I haven't, because they DONT GO AROUND INVADING OTHER COUNTRIES. I RE-FUCKING-FUSE to play this campist game where they're automatically in the same camp as Russia. Are they allied with each other? Sure. But there is a difference between Russia and the other two, which is that Russia has an imperial mindset and regularly resorts to violence to maintain a sphere of control around itself.
>>2835897>The solution, however, is not to become the US yourself. Honestly man, this just isn't a realistic scenario. A cornerstone of the multipolarist argument is that the conditions that led to a unified world imperialism simply don't exist anymore. It was only able to happen because the Americans quite simply had no serious competition after WW2. And as
>>2835900 points out, you can't base your positions so heavily on a hypothetical future. It's basic principle of Leninism that all capitalist countries develop towards imperialism (assuming they are not victims of it), but you can't apply that thinking without any regard for how things currently are. If Russia is given the space to do so, they will absolutely develop into an imperialist power on part with the US, but a big part of the Marxist method is understanding things in their context and how they change over time. As things stand right now, Russia is (in spite of itself) creating conditions more amenable to socialist revolution in the West and around the world.
>>28359057/10 made me chuckle
>>2835905I'm not playing this label game, you don't get to tell me I'm a fascist and yes, I absolutely would violently oppose you trying to destroy me or the people around me because you've arbitrarily labelled us fascists no matter why you claim you have to do it.
>>2835903Okay and? The German Reich had black and brown SS units, and sometimes they faced discrimination by their fellow Nazis
>>2835907>As things stand right now, Russia is (in spite of itself) creating conditions more amenable to socialist revolution in the West and around the world.all they are doing is killing excess proles, reducing the number of the political subject of communism is the opposite of creating conditions more amenable to socialist revolution
>>2835906>Russia Russia Russiaok hit me up when Russia Russia Russia does the same shit the US does, and no invading 1 country once because NATO expanded towards your borders is not the same as overthrowing dozens of countries and invading at least 8 countries in the past 20 years. btw ukraine was part of the NATO coalition that invaded iraq. that doesn't make it "MORALLY RIGHT" (stupid framing) for Russia Russia Russia to "invade" Ukraine but that's not what happened anyways. as has been explained to you no less than a dozen times in this thread, the US overthrew the ukrainian government and planned for confrontation with Russia as early as 2017. That got delayed because the orange zionist retard got elected instead of Killary Kkklinton but nevertheless lindsey graham and amy klobuchar (THIS IS BIPARTISAN) were visiting ukrainian neo nazis under the US backed coup leader poroshenko in december 2016 to plan hostilities against russia, and the civil war had already been raging for 2 years. this is very similar to the BULLSHIT the USA did in the 80s by funding mujahideen to overthrow socialists in afghanistan, and then russia intervening in a country that borders it was somehow treated as MORE IMPERIALIST than the most powerful nation on earth meddling and causing a civil war in the first place. it's fucking psychotic and makes no sense. when you destabilize an entire region there will be military consequences. people who actually live there reacting to the destabilization you caused with your global fucking empire is not "just as imperialist" as the destabilization. why can't you fucking get that it is realistic for entities to respond to their own material interests? Even though fucking American foreign policy realists understand and admit that the entire Russia Ukraine situation is avoidable and was America's fault and ironically it undid the westernization of Russia which was part of the whole fucking point of the overthrow of the USSR.
>>2835907I'm sure the Ukrainians are very reassured by knowing if they just surrender and put up with Russian occupation again for some indefinite period of time this will cause a socialist revolution in the West, which ironically wouldn't affect them because they'd still be occupied by a reactionary state.
Come on. You can't expect people to sacrifice themselves on the alter of grand (hypothetical) historical trajectories that are outside their actual control. What they *can* do is make their own country a better place, because they *can* control that, and it being dismantled and annexed by the Russians isn't going to accomplish that. And, by extension, I'm not going to fault anyone for supporting their resistance, no matter who they are.
>>2835922Who gives a shit what Nazis think?
>>2835914i don't think a haitian refugee in an ICE camp is the same as an ICE camp guard just because both reside in the USA. I think you are playing dumb on purpose. nor do I think an active collaborator in imperialism like a soldier or a politician or a police officer is the same as a passive beneficiary of imperialism like a US citizen. I think there is a strong case to be made that the passive inaction of the US population helps imperialism, but it does not help as much as active collaboration does, and I think flattening the difference between the two things is rhetorical and polemic, rather than analytical and realistic. Any given population anywhere on earth will usually be passive if something isn't directly harming them, and will only actively resist something if it is actively harming them. This is realistic and reflects material interests.
>>2835918They are disrupting the ability of the West to placate its own population and stifle the development of the Global South. They're also creating a more divided international bourgeoisie that can be played off against one another.
>>2835922>I'm sure the Ukrainians are very reassured by knowing if they just surrender and put up with Russian occupation again for some indefinite period of time this will cause a socialist revolution in the WestFrankly I don't think Russian occupation is substantially worse for them than their current government. All accounts of life in the annexed oblasts state that life is pretty much going on as normal. Russians ambitions in Ukraine are not colonial in the sense of wanting to underdevelop or super-exploit the country, at least not to any degree more than they exploit Russian workers. Rather they want to neutralize it as a NATO beachhead. Also as I argued earlier, a Russian-backed government would probably actually be less hostile to socialist organizing in Ukraine, since the Ukrainian left has always leaned much harder to Russia than the West (which is why Zelensky outlawed virtually every Ukrainian socialist party).
>>2835921>"MORALLY RIGHT" (stupid framing)If morality isn't the basis of why you take a position then I can't trust you. You're admitting you're motivated purely by personal interest.
Again, I'm not going to deny the US wanted a Ukraine-Russia split because they can't help themselves and insisted on tearing down the buffer wall. It was objectively a stupid idea but American hubris is an unbounded value. This doesn't change the fact that Russia reacting how it did is unjustified. Ironically, if they weren't a nuclear power I'd be vastly more sympathetic to their national security argument, given America's track record, but they ARE a nuclear power. That's the problem. A nuclear power doesn't need things like buffer states, a sphere of influence, overseas military outposts, etc, so long as its only concerned with defending itself. The fact Russia insists on having those anyway means they're doing it for other reasons, reasons of national prestige, national power, historical grievance, etc, none of which, in my book, are valid reasons to kill people.
>>2835922the ukrainian military is a much bigger enemy of the ukrainian population than the russian military is. if you actually watched interviews with ukrainians who live closest to the war zone you would realize that. there used to be a great thread in /edu/ full of content on this but it got nuked when the original server (stupidly kept on a bare metal hard drive) died. but see this post:
>>2835239I don't think you realize that the Ukrainian military is run by US-backed CIA-trained extremists who kidnap people off the streets and throw them into the meat grinder, while torturing civilians and accusing them of disloyalty. I don't think you realize the Ukrainian military was ethnically cleansing people in Ukrainian borders and waging a civil war. Russia is intervening in a Ukrainian civil war. The USA caused that civil war as a pretext for NATO expansion and acquisition of rare earth minerals necessary for their war machine. The US puppet Poroshenko banned the Ukrainian Communist party and took out IMF loans that the overthrown leader Yanukovych refused to take. The US puppet Zelensky who people voted for because they thought he was an "anti war" candidate turned out to be just like Poroshenko, and banned other Ukrainian left wing parties as well, based on the fake idea that they are "russian backed". I think you don't realize how much the Ukrainian population, especially in the Eastern half of the country, views this war as being caused by its own government, and not by Russia.
>>2835929>quoted 4 words and ignored the restyou're a god damn ignoramus
>moralism must be the basis of your analysisok if you really want me to do that then I still side against the US proxy in this conflict, which is the ukrainian coup government that the US installed in 2014
>>2835929>If morality isn't the basis of why you take a position then I can't trust you. You're admitting you're motivated purely by personal interest.I'd say that incendiary terror bombing against civilians like the Allies did in Hamburg and Dresden is pretty morally wrong. That doesn't change my views about which side was worth supporting in WW2.
>>2835932Ukraine is no longer a US proxy. The current admin at best doesn't care, at worst is hostile because they want to do business with the Russians.
Anti-"Campists": US/NATO hegemony is great, lets enforce it and once the entire world is again under it's thumb, we'll totally get to socialism. This time for real okay? *pushes Euro-communism under the carpet*
"Campists": The end of US hegemony is progressive. Ruling class disunity will favor the oppressed.
Reality: The left has no power and no chance. The future is resource wars, environmental collapse and disaster capitalism. But that's exactly what everyone deserves.
>>2835933That's the best argument anyone's made here so far, but it's still too unfair for me to embrace. It's the same reason I don't condemn Finland in WW2 for instance - Stalin put them in an impossible situation. The Axis overall were in the wrong, but Finland specifically was justified in fighting the Soviets.
>>2835949Yeah and Zelensky was a fucking idiot for agreeing to this, because he got nothing in return for it. He thought agreeing to it would get the Americans to keep giving him weapons, but Trump gave him nothing. Trump doesn't care whether Ukraine continues to exist or is part of Russia, he's only interested in making money from it. Whether that's through Zelensky or Putin doesn't matter, though he'd prefer Putin simply because he has a pre-established relationship.
>>2835950> It's the same reason I don't condemn Finland in WW2 for instancethey were nazi collaborators who wouldn't sell the USSR land even at a premium because they knew the nazis were going to use that land as a corridor to invade the USSR and finland wanted to roll out the red carpet for the nazis you absolute liberal idealist
>>2835953>Yeah and Zelensky was a fucking idiot for agreeing to this, because he got nothing in return for itzelensky has personally benefited from this corruption and the ukrainian civilians have suffered from it. the ukrainian government and military is a bigger enemy to the ukrainian people than russia is.
>>2835934>Ukraine is no longer a US proxy.i'm sorry this is so fucking stupid i keep having to reply to it with more sources
Ukraine sits on trillions worth of minerals. US politicians want them.
<Ukraine is "sitting on a trillion dollars worth of minerals that could be good to our economy", said US Senator Lindsey Graham as he stood next to Zelensky in Kiev. Ben Norton discusses how Western politicians and corporations want to exploit Ukrainian natural resources, to profit and to weaken the role of China and Russia in critical supply chains.Topics
0:00 US Senator Lindsey Graham wants Ukraine's minerals
4:19 Ukraine has tens of trillions of dollars worth of natural resources
5:34 China and critical minerals supply chain
7:10 USA wants Ukraine to replace China in minerals supply chain
8:03 Wall Street is buying up Ukraine
9:13 (Clip) Zelensky's love letter to Western corporations
10:58 NATO fights Russia to the last Ukrainian
11:46 Study: foreign intervention is 100 times more likely in country with oil
14:22 Geopolitics of NATO proxy war on Russia in Ukraine
17:58 Afghanistan's resources and $1 trillion of minerals
24:31 Outro
>>2835950>The Axis overall were in the wrong, but Finland specifically was justified in fighting the Soviets.This is why I don't think in these terms, it leads to somewhat incoherent positions. If we concede that position for the sake of argument, where does it lead us? Finland was an Axis power, you quite simply wouldn't be able to support them without also supporting Germany in practice. Is it moral for Finland to reclaim its territory if this also contributes to German victory? Does the immorality of the Winter War outweigh the morality of destroying Nazism? I would say no in both cases. My moral compass points inexorably to the creation of a world in which genuine justice and freedom is the ruling order, and this can only happen under socialism. If there are immoral acts which nevertheless move us closer to that, I'm willing to tolerate this. Moreover, I'm willing to examine the balance sheet and decide which actor has immorality more strongly built into its state and economy.
>>2835889This is because you don't see "anti"campism as reactionary on the level of the KKK. These people are supporters of the imperialist camp, they are in fact a much larger concern than any loser ass retarded KKK relic. You're bringing up all these random individualised examples of the people who support the modern day SS for "good reasons", that they might "have the same goal" but they don't, they in fact have the opposite goal to you.
>What's the point of doing this if not to get people to adopt the correct line and reject the wrong line?Diliniating correct theory leads to correct practice leads to succesful revolution. It's not to convince anyone of the righteousness of your cause. Leave that to the propagandists
>anybody who holds the wrong line is beyond reaching anyways, so there's no point arguing against it.No, anybody who's a reactionary imperialist (outspoken "anti"campist), is beyond reaching. Obviously this doesn't apply to all incorrect beliefs at all times, but to specific beliefs in specific circumstances
>Idk man I guess it's just a question of how optimistic you are, but I see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy if you just assume that there's no point to trying. Even if you aren't going to convince the person you're arguing against, you should still consider the effect presenting your arguments can have on observers. Lenin knew he wasn't going to change Kautsky's mind, but he understood that in making his arguments rank and file workers or SPD/RSDLP members might be convinced.He knew he had to provide correct theory and oppose incorrect theory, but it's not really about trying to "convince" people in the way you're talking about. Regardless if you know anything about Lenin you'd know he'd feel no qualms or problems with calling his political opponents enemies or any number of other things. This whole handwringing about words would be the least of his concern.
<The Frenchman, German or Italian who says: “Socialism is opposed to violence against nations, therefore I defend myself when my country is invaded”, betrays socialism and internationalism, because such a man sees only his own “country”, he puts “his own” . . . bourgeoisie above everything else and does not give a thought to the international connections which make the war an imperialist war and his bourgeoisie a link in the chain of imperialist plunder.
<All philistines and all stupid and ignorant yokels argue in the same way as the renegade Kautsky supporters, Longuet supporters, Turati and Co.: “The enemy has invaded my country, I don’t care about anything else.[32]
<The socialist, the revolutionary proletarian, the internationalist, argues differently. He says: “The character of the war (whether it is reactionary or revolutionary) does not depend on who the attacker was, or in whose country the ‘enemy’ is stationed; it depends on what class is waging the war, and on what politics this war is a continuation of. If the war is a reactionary, imperialist war, that is, if it is being waged by two world groups of the imperialist, rapacious, predatory, reactionary bourgeoisie, then every bourgeoisie (even of the smallest country) becomes a participant in the plunder, and my duty as a representative of the revolutionary proletariat is to prepare for the world proletarian revolution as the only escape from the horrors of a world slaughter. I must argue, not from the point of view of ‘my’ country (for that is the argument of a wretched, stupid, petty-bourgeois nationalist who does not realise that he is only a plaything in the hands of the imperialist bourgeoisie), but from the point of view of my share in the preparation, in the propaganda, and in the acceleration of the world proletarian revolution.” >>2835967In the case of WW2, there's no way to split the two because everyone involved was in active combat. There's Nazi forces literally in Finland, if you're at war with the Nazis then Finland is by default a target. There's just no way around it. But it doesn't mean Finland was in the wrong, only that everyone else had no choice but to fuck them over anyway. The current situation is differs in that Ukraine isn't, and can't, be some kind of launch pad for an American invasion of Russia. No such thing has happened, no such thing can happen, which means Ukraine doesn't need to be sacrificed for the greater good.
>>2835969I can't help you if you refuse to see how Trump is different from prior American presidents. He very obviously is and I'm not debating this point.
>>2835971>but they don't, they in fact have the opposite goal to youThis is just a refusal to believe that anybody can be mistaken about this issue. I've met people who were both vocally pro-Ukraine and pro-Iran/Palestine. How would you explain the politics of somebody like that if support for Ukraine can only come from a conscious and deliberately pro-imperialist position?
>>2835976It doesn't matter, if they are vocal "anti"campists they are in the enemy camp simple as. Whether they're in the wrong camp for the wrong or right reasons is irrelevant. If they're just incorrect on a single issue like Ukraine that's not really the largest problem, but usually the two go hand in hand which is why you brought them up
>>2835940what was happening in the USSR that allowed gorbachev to asend to power?
>>2835975>I can't help you if you refuse to see how Trump is different from prior American presidents. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and raped some of them. How is Trump "different" The only way in which trump is "different" is he represents the private sector interests directly stepping in to run the government instead of the government acting as a civic middleman to launder the interests of the private sector. he is exactly what came before, only more overt, reactionary, mask-off, and sometimes incompetent. we heard russiagate nonsense for 3 years because he refused to arm ukraine in 2017, and nothing came of it because democrats are false opposition who pinned all their hopes on a republican FBI agent mueller. what a fucking joke. then the biden family does the exact same kind of corruption by getting hunter a sinecure on a ukrainian gas firm board after the 2014 coup and we barely hear a peep from the same party. this shit is a clown show and you know it.
>>2835515> only care about people alive now and their present conditions. I'm not interested in fighting to avenge thats not what history is about, its about understanding the root cause of conflict so you can cure the disease for good instead of treating symptoms
>>2835500why would anyone say what they do if it's illegal
My tribe > your tribe
>>2835999revisionism in the CPSU
>>2836286Humanity will never progress if we don't end this shit
>>2836330Then kill your inferior tribe
>>2836336No, I'd rather kill yours. I'd rather kill neither, to be clear, but I'll never side against my own, I'm not suicidal.
>>2836330you know theres a reason we evolved tribalism. Maybe we should embrace tribalism. Kill everyone who isnt my tribe
>>2836371You're literally not a leftist if you believe this
>>2836374correct
now i will kill you
(mods dont ban me this is a joke)
>>2836330>humanityis over. we lost. clankers will trade stocks by themselves after we all die of supercovid and heat stroke
>progresscancer progresses from stage 1 to stage 4, and then the body dies.
You think this discourse is a gotcha? You think I'm afraid of liberalism advancing to it's ultimate conclusions? You are the one who foolishly believes in the NATO exceptionalism. That your relative privilege and status stems from some intrinsic value of your culture rather than the current economic ordering of the world.
You are right that present NATO's enemies are largely other liberals and reactionary. And want more of everything you do, with them at the top. You are also broadly correct that no thirdie revolution is going to sweep the world and change the stakes after US hegemony wanes to regional. You think this discourse is a gotcha? That's just fine by me.
When they win, those lessers, those uppity partners to your past global hegemony, they'll do to you, what you do to to others. I wish only to live long enough. To see the time where every other mother in Germany and France and the UK seriously ponders prostitution to care for their children. And every other man is a junkie, a drunkard or a dealer.
This is the bed you made, liberals. You WILL sleep in it.
>>2836639If you insist on making it a you-or-me situation then I'll try to make sure it's you that dies.
I'm more a
>South "good"
>North "bad"
type of guy. I consider the Russians a separate entity in this scheme, but they were very useful in dismantling European dominance over other nations. Anyone who has difficulty understanding why the Third World is apathetic towards Putin's war or why neighboring countries want to leave the Russian sphere of influence has been blinded by ideology.
campist = a campist against USA-EU-NATO
anti-campist = a campist for USA-EU-NATO
anticampism is a fraud
>>2835157We can neither support or oppose such actions on any meaningful scale. We should ignore it.
(Tweeting/leftypol posting in favour of either side does not in any meaningful sense constitute support.)
Even "will there be ice cream under communism?" Slop threads are better than foreign policy LARPing. The only thing of any interest whatsoever in the Ukraine war was that POV footage of a guy electing from a jet.
Campism is a psyop to get first and third world communists to waste time yelling at each other
>>2836847Communists yelling at each other is an integral part of the communist movement. Half the manifesto was dedicated to it
>>2836847I'm also convinced it's a psyop that started at the end of the 2010s when some people on the left (including /leftypol/) advocated returning to Marxism and the basics of class struggle, instead of endless virtue signalling about woke intersectionality (post-Occupy psyop).
When you think about it, what do these debates have achieved?
Absolutely nothing.
When the strongest anti-imperialist soldier on Twitter with a Stalin PFP proudly proclaim "Uncritical support for Russia, Cuba, Iran, Turkmenistan and the DPRK", how does it help these countries? It simply doesn't matter in the slightest, it makes zero material difference.
All this talk reduces these people to
passive spectators.
They probably don't feel the need to do activism in their own country, because they feel like they have the correct opinions on geopolitical events, and it's sufficient to feel good about themselves.
A side-effect of being a spectator is that, to feel important, they need to come up with the edgiest takes possible.
Here is what the main left party in my country says about Iran and Russia:
>Iranian workers are oppressed by the Iranian theocracy and were right to revolt, but the US bombing Iran and kidnapping Maduro is absolutely unacceptable, it's not about "democratic regime change" but resources, if the Iranians or Venezuelans want regime change, it's their own matter and not the matter of foreign powers >Russia were wrong to start an invasion of Ukraine, but NATO shouldn't have expanded to Eastern Europe after the end of the Cold War and fuel tensions, and in fact NATO should have disbanded in 1991 since the Warsaw Pact was over.You might say it's naive perhaps, but these are perfectly reasonable geopolitical stances for a party that has slim but significant chances to win the next elections, since they would have to deal with geopolitics
for real.
Meanwhile all the most extreme "death to AmeriKKKa, long live to [insert edgy leader]" takes make us look like fools. And the problem is that, even if you pretend to be retarded as a joke, the more you do it, the more you become actually retarded and surround yourself with actual retards.
On top of that, I doubt most people here would actually enjoy to live in Russia or Iran, especially considering half of you are gay or trans. You would get beaten up by Putinists daily for being atheist communist faggots.
But perhaps, the most important point is that, once multipolarity happens, what happens for us, gay communists?
Multipolarity is already happening: some countries are starting to buy and sell oil with renminbi, Iran is humiliating the US right now, and Ukraine didn't win the war after four years (but neither did Russia).
What are you multipolaristas going to do now?
I'm pretty much afraid the answer will be as usual:
sit and watch like docile spectators.
I see that a lot of multipolaristas are saying, "it's the beginning but it's not yet real multipolarity", and I think they are afraid to look at the reality of things: no communist party is ready to take power anywhere, on the contrary, multipolarity exacerbates nationalist rhetoric and conflicts between capitalist nation-states, and the US is becoming more and more unashamedly aggressive as it loses its global power.
tl;dr: Campism is just a rhetorical game for overeducated middle-class radicals alienated from working class organizations.
>>2835155>>proving OPs pointyou must admit that the cheerleading for countries simply because they are brics is silly and not communistic. whatever happened to ruthless criticism?
My favorite BRICS country is UAE
>>2836890>All this talk reduces these people to passive spectators.et tu doe
>>2836764>or why neighboring countries want to leave the Russian sphere of influencethey dont tho. it would be fine if they just want to leave and be neutral but they dont. and the reason why isnt popular will or self interest but compradors that were trained at universities in the west to sell out their countries resources.
for example armenia is not just "leaving the russia sphere" they are joining the eu, which on its own would be fine, except the eu just passed laws requiring military spending. so whats actually happening is armenia occupied by cia puppets and is actually making noise about joining a hostile aggressive military bloc
>>2836890>once multipolarity happens, what happens for us, gay communists?did you think communism was for your personal benefit or that we would reach full communism in your lifetime?
first world gays: life will get worse. material conditions will decline and as a result rights will be rolled back
third world gays: life will get better. human rights are dependent on economic development and culture conditioned thereby. anti-imperialism and alternative development models will accelerate this.
long term: all the gays get more rights because productive forces increase enabling humanity the material capacity for "rights"
>What are you multipolaristas going to do now? a lot of us are union organizers and trying to link together the various shitter parties with an actual vanguard. its pretty easy to make normies into pro iran campists when they get hit by an israeli tear gas canister for protesting rent hikes
BTW I think this kind of mechanical materialism is common with "campism." It's like the world is a finely-tuned machine with a single causal chain like A causes B, therefore B is progressive to A. The main contradiction is imperialism so therefore any state opposing the U.S. is progressive and therefore the people inside that state protesting the government are CIA. It works well for describing natural/physical systems but not society. Marx/Engels objected to it and had a different theory about how societies contain internal contradictions that generate change from within.
>>2835645>That level of anti-communism isn't a natural and inevitable outgrowth of the concept of Ukrainian nationhood. Polls from just a few years before Maidan show that much (often a majority) of the country had positive views of the USSR. Views started to change following the coup and the institutionalization of Banderite ideology. I think it's kind of like a feedback loop with both sides doubling down and getting increasingly angry at each other. The world economy crashed in 2007/2008 and tanked a bunch of economies including Ukraine and Russia. This threatened incumbents everywhere but the ones in Ukraine were turfed out by street demonstrations for pro-European parties and then that escalated into a conflict with Russia, which got offended by Ukraine breaking up with Russia. There were armed filibusters from Russia running around in the Donbass and they were mad at the Ukrainians for taking people's T.V. shows off the air and the Ukrainians were getting madder at the Russians for showing up like that.
Like if /leftypol/ can figure out that retarded but ostensibly "progressive" lib idpol doesn't justify white nationalism (or make it good, because it is bad) but can backfire and feed it (which is why we should focus on class struggle rather than race/national/gender struggle) then idk why this is so difficult to comprehend. Or maybe people can just keep fighting national wars with each other and that's what history will be for the next 100 years.
This stuff about "Banderite ideology" also isn't very convincing to me because I'm not sure most people read anything anyways. It seems like this big ideology is what's driving this according to highly ideological leftists because those leftists think in terms of big ideological battles. Okay sure it's not irrelevant but most people are not political warriors like hard leftists are, people just do whatever and react to what's going on around them. See how well Israel is doing calling people antisemites at improving their reputation.
>>2837150>just throw gays under the bus to pander to third world reactionariesYou people are morally bankrupt, I am never siding with you.
>>2836890Holy based nuclear TRVKE
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