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File: 1783300929563-5.png (481.33 KB, 611x808, XLR8.png)

 

There is a recurring tendency within revolutionary politics to greet every crisis with optimism. Inflation rises, wages stagnate or fall, housing becomes unaffordable, ecological collapse accelerates, governments become increasingly reactionary, and someone inevitably declares that these are "good." Not because they are good in themselves, but because they are believed to contain the seeds of revolutionary transformation. The suffering of the present is interpreted as the midwife of a liberated future.

This tendency is neither confined to the political left nor unique to the twenty-first century. Throughout the history of capitalism, socialists, anarchists, communists, as well as fascists, liberals, and conservatives have all, at different moments, imagined catastrophe as politically clarifying. The wager is simple. The contradictions of society intensify until they become unbearable, forcing people to abandon old illusions, confront reality, and take action, lawful or otherwise.

Whether this wager is correct remains one of the most difficult questions facing revolutionary politics. The phrase "things have to get worse before they get better" expresses an intuition rooted in historical materialism. If the existing order continues to satisfy enough people's immediate needs, then those people have relatively little incentive to overthrow it. Reform appears preferable to revolution. Stability reproduces consent. Capitalism is not static. It generates recurring crises. Falling profitability, unemployment, debt, environmental destruction, imperial conflict, housing shortages, and declining public services are not external accidents but recurring features of the system itself. From this perspective, worsening conditions expose capitalism's inability to meet human needs. This is not obviously irrational. Revolutions rarely emerge during periods of widespread prosperity. They tend to occur during crises.

Yet this observation immediately confronts a second one. Most crises do not produce revolution, they produce exhaustion. Misery is not consciousness. The assumption that suffering naturally radicalizes people confuses necessity with possibility. Material hardship creates grievances. It does not automatically create revolutionary consciousness. A worker facing eviction may join a tenants' union. The same worker may instead blame immigrants, or become politically apathetic, or devote every waking hour simply to surviving. The crisis itself determines none of these outcomes. Organization and political education does.

History repeatedly demonstrates that identical material conditions can generate socialist movements, fascist movements, nationalist movements, religious revivals, or complete political collapse. Misery explains why people become dissatisfied. It does not explain what they become.e

Within sections of the revolutionary left there exists an aesthetic attraction to collapse. Every recession becomes "the final crisis." Every financial panic becomes capitalism's death throes. Every ecological disaster becomes evidence that history is accelerating toward rupture. There is understandable emotional appeal here. If one believes the existing system and everyone born into it is fundamentally irredeemable, then every failure appears as confirmation. But this perspective risks transforming human suffering into political symbolism. The bombing of a hospital is no longer primarily a tragedy. It becomes evidence. Mass layoffs become objective conditions. War becomes proof that contradictions are sharpening. The people actually experiencing these events can disappear behind theoretical categories. Marxism insists upon understanding history materially. That obligation extends to suffering itself. Real people do not experience crises as dialectical developments. They experience hunger, debt, trauma, disability, and death. If revolutionary politics loses sight of this, it risks becoming morally indifferent to precisely those whose liberation it claims to seek.

Another version of the argument claims that workers in wealthy capitalist countries possess too much comfort to become revolutionary. According to this view, declining living standards are politically necessary. Only once enough comforts disappear will resistance emerge. There is an element of truth here. Periods of expanding prosperity have often stabilized capitalist societies. Consumer credit, home ownership, welfare provision, and rising wages historically blunted class conflict. Yet the argument quickly becomes too neat. Workers in affluent countries already organize. They strike, they form unions, they resist evictions, they oppose austerity, they participate in anti-discrimination movements, they engage in tenant organizing. None of this requires absolute immiseration. Indeed, one might argue the opposite. People possessing some degree of security often have greater capacity to organize than people working three jobs merely to survive. Political participation itself requires time, energy, health, and community. The completely exhausted worker is not necessarily the most revolutionary. They may simply be exhausted.

Revolutionary debates frequently distinguish between the imperial core and the global periphery. Workers in wealthy nations undeniably benefit from unequal exchange, imperial dominance, and the extraction of value from poorer regions, although the extent and distribution of those benefits remain contested within Marxist theory. Some conclude that the decline of living standards in wealthy countries is historically unavoidable as global inequalities become harder to sustain. This may be descriptively plausible, but a descriptive claim differs from a normative one. To argue that standards of living will decline is one thing, to celebrate, encourage, and accelerate that decline is another. The left has long criticized ruling classes for treating human beings as expendable instruments of history. It should hesitate before adopting similar reasoning itself. The suffering of workers in one country does not become emancipatory simply because workers elsewhere have suffered longer. Internationalism demands solidarity, not competitive immiseration.

Perhaps the deepest problem with accelerationist thinking is its tendency toward historical automation. The assumption is "More contradiction equals more crisis, therefore more crisis equals more resistance, and more resistance equals revolution." History offers no such guarantee. Societies have endured astonishing levels of deprivation without revolutionary transformation. Others have collapsed into an even more reactionary politics. Contradictions do not possess political direction, human beings provide direction. Accelerationism attempts to resolve political frustration by embracing speed. If capitalism generates crises, perhaps those crises should intensify. If institutions are collapsing, perhaps they should collapse faster. If reform merely delays transformation, reform itself becomes counter-revolutionary. Different forms of accelerationism arrive at different conclusions. Some see technological development as the engine that ultimately undermines capitalist relations. Others argue that capitalism should be allowed or encouraged to exhaust itself through the intensification of its own contradictions. Still others, from entirely different political traditions, embrace acceleration because they believe crisis creates opportunities for transformation, emancipatory or otherwise. What unites these otherwise divergent approaches is a suspicion of stabilization. Order becomes the enemy, disorder becomes productive. Does History Have a Speed Limit?

One question accelerationism rarely answers is whether political development can actually be hurried. Capitalism already possesses extraordinary tendencies toward acceleration. Financial markets operate instantaneously, production is globally integrated, climate change advances rapidly, information circulates continuously, precarious employment expands, debt compounds, supply chains stretch across continents. The system scarcely appears in need of additional momentum. Indeed, much contemporary politics concerns managing the consequences of acceleration rather than overcoming stagnation. If capitalism already destabilizes itself at remarkable speed, the revolutionary problem may not be insufficient crisis, it may be insufficient organization capable of acting within crisis. Perhaps the central strategic divide is not between stability and crisis, but between expectation and preparation. Expectation waits for conditions. Preparation develops capacities regardless of conditions. Instead of simply interpreting crises, we must organize through them. Revolutionary movements historically succeeded not because suffering automatically generated resistance but because groups capable of transforming dissatisfaction into collective action already existed when crises arrived. Without these, crisis often produces fear and reaction instead of solidarity.

There is also a psychological attraction to believing that worsening conditions necessarily advance liberation. It transforms despair into hope, every defeat becomes secretly a victory, every setback becomes historical progress. Reality may offer no such consolation. Bad things may simply be bad. Factory closures may strengthen capital. Wars may entrench reaction. Climate disasters may destroy communities rather than radicalize them. Governments may consolidate power rather than expose their weakness. The proposition that "things have to get worse before they get better" contains an important insight and a dangerous temptation. The insight is that stable systems often reproduce themselves through relative legitimacy, and that crises can expose hidden contradictions while opening political possibilities that previously seemed impossible.

The temptation is to mistake possibility for inevitability, or worse, to interpret human suffering as intrinsically progressive. From a revolutionary working-class perspective, neither complacent reformism nor romantic collapse offers an adequate politics. Reformism assumes capitalism can indefinitely soften its contradictions. Collapse assumes those contradictions automatically generate emancipation. History suggests neither is true. Crises create openings, but those openings have to be prepared for in advance through organization. Whether those openings become revolutionary depends not on the severity of suffering alone, but on the capacity of ordinary people to build collective institutions, develop political consciousness, and act together. Bad things are not good, nor are they meaningless, they are historical moments whose political content is not predetermined. That uncertainty is precisely what makes revolution both necessary and difficult.

Good post. If you want a quick byword when confronted with lazy accelerationism, there's always the Tocqueville paradox (on the whole people revolt when things are getting better, then get better slower than expected, not when things are getting worse. people are better at enduring misery than ensuring disappointment. each new crisis or setback in the west means nothing because everyone had had low expectations since 2008. what would actually be interesting is a period of optimism and improvement…)

File: 1783302778386-0.jpg (49.07 KB, 479x435, 1401239557597.jpg)

you couldve easily simply said accelerationism is incompatible with communism just by virtue of being an ideology but pseuds looooove yapping bullshit. lol at all the third-worldist and class collaborationist garbage you tried to slip in your substack wannabe diatribe btw

>>2859627
wtf is this childish nonsense. you will NEVER have revolution so long as the state remains crisis free. this is the equivalent of wanting a strong and stable exploiter state in theory and practice
>Crises create openings, but those openings have to be prepared for in advance through organization
no they dont. who says they do? you're a moron for assuming its possible to prepare the masses for crises that haven't even happened yet, to conjure up some fake scenario and prepare them for it like we're fucking nostradamus

I diagnose OP with american exceptionalism for overly focusing on the needs and revolutionary goals of the american workers specifically instead of thinking of the wider picture of the global revolution. Crisis hitting the american state benefits the entire planet, the interests of the american workers specifically are many rungs down on the ladder of priorities

Lol if you think capitalists will ever allow a germany 1918 style crisis again

>>2859643
> lol at all the third-worldist and class collaborationist garbage you tried to slip in
I knew I was going to get short, rude, dismissive replies with lazy accusations. This is an imageboard after all. But I thought the accusations would be the opposite of this. Strange.

>>2859643
> lol at all the third-worldist and class collaborationist garbage you tried to slip in
>>2859644
>I diagnose OP with american exceptionalism for overly focusing on the needs and revolutionary goals of the american workers specifically instead of thinking of the wider picture of the global revolution.

Ah there we go. I got both accusations. Very nice. I am both a third worldist and first worldist it seems.

>>2859644
>I diagnose OP with american exceptionalism for overly focusing on the needs and revolutionary goals of the american workers

I suppose I should make a disclaimer. This post was originally in USApol in response to these:

>>2859579
<Do what you can to sabotage America and make Americans suffer so that multipolarity can blossom
>>2859580
<Hail comrade fentanyl, hail comrade alcohol, hail comrade cocaine

Since that thread tends to move fast, and effortposts get ignored, I figured I would turn the post into a separate thread. You are correct for noticing it was originally intended for an American audience. Perhaps I should have edited it. Thank you for your observation.

>>2859627
Accelerationism is dumb philosophical crap but communism is still the movement of solely the immiserated reserveless propertyless wage laborers of the world acting together for their own emancipation, sorry. Anything else is cope.

>>2859663
Those people you’re describing don’t exist

>>2859664
How are you in every thread? Please stop.

>>2859664
>the proletariat does not exist
Try not living in a bubble.

>>2859663
> but communism is still the movement of solely the immiserated reserveless propertyless wage laborers of the world acting together for their own emancipation, sorry.
Not sure what part of OP this is meant to disagree with. Care to quote any of it?

>>2859664
This guy is not OP btw, he is a known ban evading nihilist troll who just responds by saying everything is fake, doesn't exist, is kayfabe, humans don't deserve communism etc.

>>2859669
Tenant unions are quite explicitly interclassist and it's conflating middle class losers with enough free time to larp in irrelevant electoralist parties with proletarians in miserable conditions who still find a way to struggle with other proletarians towards their own benefit.

>The completely exhausted worker is not necessarily the most revolutionary.

This is something only an utter retard who has read zero Marx would say. You don't even understand what makes the proletariat a revolutionary class.

Anyway like most philosophycucks OP arrived at a conclusion pulled out of their own ass first and then worked backwards by nitpicking anecdotes instead of looking at the real world. Notice how they don't even mention the proletariat by name but rather talk about a vague "people"!

>>2859676
Point to anything in the real world suggesting a proletariat exists and desires communism enough to organize for it(Point to anything in the real world suggesting anyone gives a shit)

>>2859670
I have waited out every ban legitimately

>>2859666
Not gonna stop until this site is finally dead for good

>>2859673
>Tenant unions are quite explicitly interclassist
so are labor unions. So are vanguard parties. Was Lenin proletarian? Was Marx proletarian? No. But moreover, a tenant union is just a tool for opposing high rent. I did not say or imply it had anything to do with establishing communism, nor did I suggest it wasn't interclass. You are refuting arguments I didn't make by implying I did make them. Tenants unions can at best serve an auxiliary function in the class struggle and the proletarian revolution. But to suggest that an organization being "interclass" makes it entirely irrelevant is I think shortsighted. If you think something like a tenants union actively harms class struggle because it is reformist, then you can say so. I am not stopping you.

>This is something only an utter retard who has read zero Marx would say. You don't even understand what makes the proletariat a revolutionary class.

I've read plenty of Marx. I don't understand why accusing people of not reading Marx is the first resort of so many people on here.

> Notice how they don't even mention the proletariat by name but rather talk about a vague "people"!


Workers were mentioned several times. I wasn't talking about the most immiserated workers. Remember, I already admitted this was in reply to someone in the USApol thread here >>2859660

Perhaps you missed that. The intended audience was not necessarily you.

>>2859679
>>2859680
Hobbyless behavior

File: 1783305963994-5.png (268.21 KB, 1280x963, marx_hmm.png)

>heh, you said masses or people, that means you didnt read marx and dont know what a proletariat is or you are ᴉuᴉlossnW, i forget which. ps i don't care that you werent talking about the proletariat in that moment, in fact that makes me even more correct. regards, faggot on the tor node

ever notice this? these utter LLM wreckers scan for a word and then spill out a thoughtless trigger phrase. they do this to start a side argument and distract from the original topic. they morph and split and shift goalposts and introduce new topics until all discussion becomes impossible. but what they can never do is remove the text from the top of the thread. they know instinctively most people jump to the bottom so they take advantage of that.

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>>2859684
Yeah I wonder why communists – on a communist imageboard – would dunk on you for talking like your run of the mill political figure.

>reducing Marx to an epic meme while complaining about this shit

Peep the text you retarded troglodyte, lol.

>>2859681
>>Tenant unions are quite explicitly interclassist
>so are labor unions. So are vanguard parties.
<(more yapping and the typical endlessly regurgitated cope about [your favorite daddy figure here] not being a proletarian as if your average non-proletarian has studied the class struggle as much as them)
Lmao, this mong thought they were cooking with this retardation.

If you can't tell the difference between proletarians acting together to raise their own wages and people of multiple classes trying to mediate the price of this or that commodity then read a fucking book, please.

File: 1783306801351-4.jpg (64.55 KB, 600x609, 1436003312032.jpg)

>>2859681
>>2859692
The petty bourgeoisie has a long history of complaining bitterly about the price of this or that commodity. Engels’ The Housing Question deals with petty-bourgeois, Proudhonian solutions to the cost and availability of housing, for example. When the worker purchases a commodity, he does not do so as a worker. He enters into a very simple relation: that between buyer and seller. He is the owner of money; opposite him is the provider, the owner of a commodity. At no point in this exchange is the specific capitalist-worker relation involved. When the price of a commodity goes up, all those who depend upon that commodity are affected, regardless of their class. And for this reason, rising costs can hardly be considered an issue of salience to the proletariat as proletariat. It may affect individual members of the proletariat, but it only affects them in their capacity as consumers, not as workers.

As Engels writes:

< ‘It is with just such sufferings as these, which the working class endures in common with other classes, and particularly the petty bourgeoisie, that petty-bourgeois socialism, to which Proudhon belongs, prefers to occupy itself.’


In order to free itself as a class, the proletariat must fight on class lines, i.e. it must fight as a class. Hence such campaigns as this, which call for interclassist fronts to tackle interclassist issues, can command no interest whatsoever from communists, who are by nature champions of the working class and its interests.

>>2859693
>The petty bourgeoisie has a long history of complaining bitterly about the price of this or that commodity.

proletarians would never be upset at high rent and expensive food

>>2859687
>Yeah I wonder why communists – on a communist imageboard
really? i'm prety sure this board is anticommunist since most posts are just regulars accusing each other of being such

> would dunk on you for talking like your run of the mill political figure


do run of the mill political figures talk about the consequences of not having a revolutionary organization prepared in advance of a crisis? i forget

File: 1783307068841-1.png (634.12 KB, 779x643, The Real Proles.png)

Remember unless you fulfill all the criteria you are objectively a reactionary

>>2859687
why should anon have used the word proletariat if that is not the only group they were talking about? you just want the topic to be a different topic.

>>2859693
hey real quick. tell me what you think of this thread? >>2853401 is this an anti-classcuck thread or an western chauvinist thread?

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>>2859643
> lol at all the third-worldist and class collaborationist garbage you tried to slip in
>>2859644
>I diagnose OP with american exceptionalism for overly focusing on the needs and revolutionary goals of the american workers specifically instead of thinking of the wider picture of the global revolution.
>>2859655
<Ah there we go. I got both accusations. Very nice. I am both a third worldist and first worldist it seems.

TWisters and Treatlers are dark mirrors of each other. That's why any post which is even remotely agreeable is subjected to savage misinterpretations by both TWisters and Treatlers.

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>>2859687
how dare engels

>>2859696
>Remember unless you fulfill all the criteria you are objectively a reactionary
No that's the criteria for what is a prole, not the criteria for what is a revolutionary.

Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Castro: None of them were proles. Mao was a peasant. Lenin and Castro were lawyers, and Castro was even the son of a plantation owner. Engels was bourgeois. Marx was born to a petty bourgeois family that owned a vineyard and sent him to university in a time where most people did not get a university education. Che was petty bourgeois as well. People say Stalin is a prole but I have trouble finding sources on the jobs he did between seminary school and being a professional revolutionary. I know one of them was a night shift at an observatory.

>>2860245
  1. most people still don't get a university education
  2. kill yourself


>>2859696
Wrong but i actually do, and I live in the imperial core. What gives captain?

>>2859687
Marx kept libbing out and describing communism as the free association of producers. smh at his petite bourgeois mentality.

>>2860262
>most people still don't get a university education
most young people get some kind of post-secondary education (and in the US, 61% of all people have some college education) and positive views of socialism are strongly correlated with youth and education.
this is one of the two most important things you can understand about politics today. (the other is that political alignment and personality have become deeply intertwined: open minded and agreeable? leftist or liberal. closed minded and disagreeable? conservative or trump cultist.)

Accelerationism reduces the chances of revolution cause if the change is too great too fast and too catastrophic, people will fight and die just to return to the previous status quo.

>>2861098
america is 4% of the planet. there is no 'returning to the previous status quo' in any revolutionary scenario, the rest of the world will make sure of that

>>2861104
My boss being french/german/chinese is returning to the status quo

All of the great socialist revolutions have only happened during or in the aftermath of the two world wars. We need ww3 for the next revolutionary wave.

>>2861302
Pretty much this, and just like in previous wars the imperialists will have no choice but to start it by looting each other to compete against china, like america invading Canada and greenland

>>2859663
Wrong. Communism is not an identity of immiserated reserveless propertyless wage workers but rather a movement for the emancipation of workers to abolish private property, anarchy of production and social classes following the supremacy of the proletarian class to become the ruling class.
Belonging to the proletarian class is linked to a relationship with the means of production, with the sale of one's labor power to live, because this type of worker does not own the means of production. This is different from owning the means of production to extract capital from another worker. Having a cell phone or income doesn't change this, and having a cell phone is also common among workers in the global south. The goal of communists is to unite the working classes from the perspective of the supremacy of the proletarian class. This includes the petty bourgeoisie and intelligentsia who can become revolutionary forces, as long as this moves towards the democratization of the economy to abolish private property, anarchy of production, and social classes, where the proletarian class is the revolutionary agent and should be the new ruling class, overthrowing the bourgeois state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat.

A capitalist can be a communist as long as he accepts class suicide, that is, the extinction of the capitalist class, and submits to the communist movement, which has to keep an eye on this capitalist in case he tries to betray or co-opt the movement for class conciliation.
Remember that Marx consumed alcohol, as did many workers of the time, and by this logic, these workers had disposable income and therefore are not the fantasy you imagine a proletarian to be.

>>2861373
>A capitalist can be a communist as long as he accepts class suicide, that is, the extinction of the capitalist class, and submits to the communist movement, which has to keep an eye on this capitalist in case he tries to betray or co-opt the movement for class conciliation.
The entreprolecariat TRVKE strikes again.

>>2861374
A member of the bourgeoisie or aristocracy can become a communist, but they must accept that human emancipation and the liberation of the workers will not stem from anything shared with the owning class. Therefore, such an individual poses no problem—provided they accept the abolition of their own class and submit to the supremacy of the proletariat—so long as the revolutionary party of scientific socialism keeps a watchful eye on them to prevent any attempt to betray, co-opt, confuse, or sabotage the communist movement and the working class.

>>2861374
Any class can embrace communism; other working-class strata—such as the petty bourgeoisie—need only align their actions with the interests of the proletariat to achieve political supremacy. This alignment can be realized by recognizing shared interests in socializing the economy.
A simple example is realizing that the petty bourgeoisie can benefit—without coming into conflict with the proletariat—from measures such as public seed banks and publicly available tools; the nationalization and socialization of banks to provide cheap credit for workers; the availability of social housing; and the nationalization of the energy and transport sectors to serve the working class. These and other measures could serve as political slogans to propagate the need to nationalize and socialize land, finance, housing, pensions, energy, transport, and communications—actions that would be mutually beneficial without creating unnecessary antagonisms.
It must be remembered, of course, that the intelligentsia and the petty bourgeoisie—who may fancy themselves independent of the proletariat—will face confrontation and reckoning, for they lack the capacity for true political independence. They can either act based on what they share with the proletariat or be co-opted by the bourgeoisie, which will use and discard them as "useful idiots."

>>2861373
if the proletariat is the ruling class it is no longer the proletariat, because the definition of proletariat is an oppressed immiserated class that does not control means of production. so the proletariat abolishes itself. it cannot be the ruling class because the proletariat cannot remain proletarian and also rule.

>>2860262
>if you're not proletarian you're reactionary
<not true, a person can be non-proletarian and still revolutionary, like Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Castro
>umm well most heckin people dont have university education and kys
you strike me as somebody who isn't even reading the conversation before replying how wtf does you reply even have to do with the post it is replying to. are you stupid? are you hoping the audience won't scroll up and will just clap at whatever dumb shit you say?

>Marxism insists upon understanding history materially. That obligation extends to suffering itself.
<duhh
47 Replies and 20 unique IPs yet nopony notices that the OP is obvious LLM drivel. grim.

>>2861627
Incorrect. The lumpenproletariat is impoverished and reactionary due to its desperation, not revolutionary. The proletariat only sells its labor power, and it is the majority of the population; even the petty bourgeoisie, if it lacks independence from its means of production and tools, would often be considered semi-proletarian. Another mistake you make is that the dictatorship of the proletariat does not exist to serve the desires of the majority or what is popular, but rather to maintain the supremacy of the proletarian class, not the desires of the individual proletarian. By socializing the economy, these workers will still serve the supremacy of the proletariat until there is global socialist hegemony and all the contradictions of society in low-phase communism are resolved so that full communism can be achieved with disciplined workers, with the production of consumer goods at a level of abundance in economic planning for the state wither away. Only after the withering of the state will the dictatorship of the proletariat end, and until this occurs, there will be suppression of the socialist state against all who deny the supremacy of the proletariat and the dictatorship of the proletariat.

>>2860245

Stalin was pretty lumenprole ngl, guy was a bank-robber, kidnapper, extortionist, all-around career criminal before he got involved in revolution.

>>2861633
if you want to see a thread that is actual LLM drivel try this one: >>>/leftypol/2861863

but you are a ban evading mass tor baiter so "LLM" isn't actually a real diagnosis coming from you, it's just an accusation you level at a post which is too long and you dislike it.

>>2861844
>guy was a bank-robber, kidnapper, extortionist, all-around career criminal before he got involved in revolution.
you're not very informed on this. there is no record of stalin actually robbing a bank. He oversaw the Tiflis bank robbery and phoned party leadership when it was over, but it was his comrade Kamo who actually took part in it. As for Stalin's illegal activities in general, they were all done on behalf of the party. He was never a "career criminal." When he did crimes, it was in service of the revolution after he had already joined the RSDLP, which later split into bolsheviks and mensheviks. the bolsheviks had internal debates over whether to wage purely illegal class struggle (a political tendency called otzavism) or whether to wage purely legal class struggle (a political tendency called liquidationism). lenin and stalin advocated for using both legal and illegal struggles to further the revolution. it is pretty obvious why this is correct: You want to diversify your methods of struggle so that you can fall back on one when the other fails. Revolution is ultimately illegal anyway since you are trying to seize power away from the current legal authorities because you view them as unjust. Revolution is only ever legal in hindsight after it is successful and the revolutionaries set up their own government and decide what the new law is.

>>2861844
>kidnapper, extortionist
source?

>>2860245
that says a lot of things about communism. Both good and bad

>>2860262
doesn't that just bolster the point the other anon was making. he was talking about how remarkably non-proletarian some of the most famous communists are. He said "in a time where most people did not get a university education." the fact that they still don't makes his point understated not overstated.

>>2860245
>Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Castro: None of them were proles.
Yeah but the last two were libs


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