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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Why is it that the surviving members of the George W. Bush administration who acted as the architects of the Iraq War have never faced any legal penalties for what they did?

The 2003 US invasion of Iraq was arguably one of the worst human rights atrocities of the past 50 years. Over 1 million Iraqi CIVILIANS were killed. If that's not a low key genocide similar to Gaza I don't know what is. But it's even worse knowing this war was based entirely on a gigantic lie (a "noble lie" if you will) by some of the slimiest, most diabolical villains ever known to American politics. Yes, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld are dead and rotting in hell. But George W Bush, Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith are still alive. Neocons Bill Kristol, Robert Kagan and John Bolton who were the top dogs in PNAC (Project for a New American Century), which called for massive military spending and preemptive attacks (also a "New Pearl Harbor" which conveniently happened on 9/11) are also still alive. WHY HAVEN'T ANY OF THEM EVER BEEN CHARGED AS WAR CRIMINALS?????

The Straussian cabal is very real and still holds loads of ideological power within American politics. Many Neocons from the Bush II era have now since become Democrats and publicly supported Kamala Harris over Trump on the basis Trump wasn't Neocon enough. These people have names and addresses and have to face some kind of legal penalties so the world can finally have closure and the Neocon war criminals can finally reap what they sowed.
367 posts and 47 image replies omitted.

>>2907076
>implying AOC isn’t a neocon herself
>implying her administration won’t be packed with neocons like Obama’s was

>>2899099
>>2899124
Even Maupin admits Lenin formed a cabal.

>>2906547
Holy fuck America desperately needs TOTAL BOOMER DEATH immediately. Nothing else summarizes the complete non-existence of any intelligence in the average Amerikkkan than this boomeroid who supported the New Deal but then switched to the Republicans because he felt the Dems became too soft on foreign policy. This is the epitome of treatlerism.

>>2907298
Jaffa wasn't a boomer. He was born in 1918 and died like 10 years ago.

>>2907282
Is that the chick Caleb paid to spank him?

>>2907298
Kek he also said he read The Road to Serfdom ultimate trash.

>>2907487
*he paid to spank YOU.

Holy shit, how did whiny liberals like TYT become more redpilled on the neocons than most radicals are today?

>>2897086
It's in Pirkei Avos: "revere your teacher as you would heaven".

>>2903543
He says Farabi says that in societies where they don’t rule overtly philosophers should rule over the masses covertly.

>>2908499
Show this to Maupin and get his opinion.

>>2898008
>empathy largely is not
What about something like Kropotkin's Mutual Aid book? Does that not prove empathy is metaphysical?

>>2899224
Peretti certainly sounds like a Straussian cabal member.
>obsession with muh Truth
>obsession with what happens when (allegedly) people lose an objective standard of muh Truth and muh Right
>question of who or what determines what is real or what can be used to judge whether or not something is true or false
>fear that truth will be substituted for constructed ideology
>rejects the notion that different peoples and civilizations have different moral codes must entail that morality and justice don't exist
>convention bad/nature (what things are in reality) good
>rejects the idea that human beings can describe reality without making judgements about it, everything must centre around "how should people live?", moral relativists destroy this by severing what a person believes vs. what is actually true
>rejects the idea that human beings are simply malleable objects and there's an objective moral truth in their nature that social institutions do not create (this is the Natural Right stuff)

So yeah it's similar but Peretti is objectively a lot dumber.

>>2886732
>Why does Caleb believe Trotsky was a “Jewish supremacist” exactly?
This is just polemical stuff. They don't really believe it, it's an old far-right trope going back aways. The neocons-as-Trotskyists line also emerged as part of a civil war within American conservatism. An interesting thing is that Maupin really tries to connect Max Shachtman to neoconservatism.

There's an interesting article I just looked up that attacks this.
https://www.scribd.com/document/613414672/William-F-King-Neoconservatives-and-Trotskyism

Reading through it. Key points:

(1) The successors to pre-Cold War Old Right wanted to discredit the neocons as truly conservative by asserting that they are descended from Trotskyists.

(2) This was also flirting with antisemitism because Trotsky like many neocons were Jews so therefore the neocons were engaging in Permanent Revolution from the White House or somehow applying the methods of it.

(3) This started in the 1980s when neocons began attaining influence in the Reagan administration and conservative think tanks, and picked up more energy in the 1990s and after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq.

(4) Irving Kristol was one of the few of the original neoconservative brain trust who really was a self-described Trot at one point. There was also Seymour Martin Lipset, and Kistol's wife. And a political scientist named Martin Diamond. But a lot of others who gained prominence on the right were either never on the left at all, or if they were, they were either liberals or left-social democrats who were opposed to Leninism. This was also mostly when they were either teenagers or in their early twenties.

(5) The extent of the Trotskyism of these four people is greatly exaggerated. Because again, they were kids. Kristol was also never a member of any explicitly Trot group. He was briefly a member of the Workers Party of Max Schachtman in 1940. Actually these people were part of a small faction in it called the "Shermanites" which was anti-Bolshevik (so therefore anti-Trotskyist) which caused Schactman to kick them out, and very quickly they began publishing a journal (called "Enquiry") that was criticizing Marxism, Leninism, and Trotskyism.

(6) Irving then joined the Army during WWII and at this point no longer considered himself to be a socialist of any stripe. That pretty much goes for all four of these people from what I can tell.

(7) Schachtman was an associate of Trotsky but broke with him, later moved to an anti-communist form of social democracy over the following decades and joined the old Socialist Party but Trotskyists got expelled from that in the late 1930s. There were some later neocons who were followers of Schachtman in the late 1960s. This was on the right-wing of the Socialist Party.

(8) Irving who was the most Trot of them, unlike other neocons, was not particularly enthusiastic about American military force in the same way that others in the Bush administration were. He was more of a realist in the sense that he thought American policy should behave unilaterally yes, but the "crusade for democracy" stuff isn't something he believed in.

(9) Other neocons who did call for spreading a "democratic revolution" like Michael Leeden and Joshua Muravchik were not Trots. Muravchik had been a young socialist. This guy Leeden has a pretty wild biography:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ledeen

(10) The idea that these people are doing permanent revolution is basically ignorant or lying about Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution. It wasn't just "do militarized socialism and invade everyone." It was about how attempts to carry out a bourgeois-democratic revolution that would do land reform and achieve national independence in third-world countries would fail unless it was led by the working class in a socialist revolution that would combine and pass over a specific historical stage. That's what that actually was.

>>2909140
This is excellent and more proof Maupin is an utter moron who needs to read a damn book before writing one.

>>2909138
>"communism is when no walkman"
LOL!

>>2909140
> Kristol was also never a member of any explicitly Trot group. He was briefly a member of the Workers Party of Max Schachtman in 1940. Actually these people were part of a small faction in it called the "Shermanites" which was anti-Bolshevik (so therefore anti-Trotskyist) which caused Schactman to kick them out, and very quickly they began publishing a journal (called "Enquiry") that was criticizing Marxism, Leninism, and Trotskyism.

So the Saul-to-Paul conversion story is blatantly fake?

>>2896181
>Being a member of PNAC doesn't automatically make you a war criminal.
It should.


>>2909140
Wasn’t Sidney Hook a trot?

>>2909204
It has been overstated. Kristol has the most claim to being one. But he was pretty young and in college, he wasn't like a prominent leader of the movement. He also wrote an essay in the 1970s called "Memoir of a Trotskyist." Looking at it, he talks about going to school at CUNY in the 1930s and the different left-wing groups there. He liked the debate culture of the time. People would go up and talk for two or three hours. Much of the debates were between the Trotskyists and democratic socialists because the Stalinists didn't debate anyone. He also wrote they had an interest in "highbrow" culture and the arts and they unquestionably accepted the authority of adults which was unlike the 60s left.

>>2909411
I think so and neocons like him but he wasn't part of the core group of proper neocons in the 70s, according to the author.

>>2908499
>”philosophers should puppeteer the masses from behind the curtain guize!”
Totally not a conspiracy.

>>2909138
Protip: moral relativism is what gave us the Gaza Genocide.

>>2909527
wrong, it was capital who gave us the genocide, you are idealist

>>2909138
>obsession with muh Truth
Based
>obsession with what happens when (allegedly) people lose an objective standard of muh Truth and muh Right
Nah it's not alleged, it's real. Capitalism does that to people.
>question of who or what determines what is real or what can be used to judge whether or not something is true or false
Nothing strange here. Officialism is endemic to modern society. If the government does not admit to X, then X did not happen. Also how stupid bullshit like Katyn became real because gorbachev "admitted" to it.
>fear that truth will be substituted for constructed ideology
You see those can be the same thing.
>civilizations have different moral codes must entail that morality and justice don't exist
Or some civilizations are better than others?
>convention bad/nature (what things are in reality) good
Lame appeal to nature fallacy, but go on.
>rejects the idea that human beings can describe reality without making judgements about it, everything must centre around "how should people live?", moral relativists destroy this by severing what a person believes vs. what is actually true
Based
>rejects the idea that human beings are simply malleable objects and there's an objective moral truth in their nature that social institutions do not create (this is the Natural Right stuff)
Humans aren't malleable objects, it's more complex than that. Markov chain of previous experience and so on.

5.5/8 so not bad.

>>2909531
Nah, it was religious and ethnic supremacism. Zionism is an idealistic ideology. Treats don't work on it.

>>2909537
Feel free to take a crack at the original source.

>>2905788
there's no such thing as a zionist or an israeli or jew or a palestinian or a muslim, there are only people and they are empirically undeniably human and they do the things they do for the same reason dogs lick their balls; because they can. if donald trump announced tomorrow that american citizens have the legal right to cross the border into mexico with the full support of the us military and kill the indigenous people and rape their women and steal everything they own and keep the lands they raze as spoils of war, millions of people would load up their guns and put on their maga hats and do exactly that, and it wouldn't be the first time it happened either.

>>2909731
Fanciful way to verbally dance around what he said. Americans aren't genociding Mexico, but Israelis are genociding Palestinians.

>>2909731
“Israelis” aren’t people but subhuman colonizer filth. There are no “innocent” among them.

>>2909751
>>2909774
How evil does someone have to be that killing them is unquestionably justified? And how is that degree of evil determined?

>>2909805
I mean in the example given, what should Mexico do to stop that shit other than brutally slaughter Americans until they stop trying to kill them ? Is it preferable to wait for your turn in the oven ? The IDF is a conscript army, if you were to kill the military en masse they would grab civilians to enlist them.

>>2909538
>capital has nothing to do with the creation of Israel, it was just le bad ideas floating in the air that did it, trust me bro
nice try porky, not falling for your psyop

>>2909875
How does that justify killing *any* Israeli? Unless someone is currently in the military and/or has a weapon in their hands they’re a civilian.

>>2909537
>defending neocon moralism
That ideology is the reason we have so many former Evangelical kids who have loads of religious trauma.

>>2909875
>The IDF is a conscript army, if you were to kill the military en masse they would grab civilians to enlist them.
the "punishment" for not serving is a couple months in a jail cell they don't even have to spend the entire time in.

>>2909805
>How evil does someone have to be that killing them is unquestionably justified? And how is that degree of evil determined?

imo the only rational view on this is that we as individual highly-emotional human beings are not equipped to answer these kinds of tremendous and important questions. that's kind of the whole reason we invented justice systems and courts and judges and juries and lawyers and all the rest of it, because of years and years and years of experience passed down to us about what results when people take the law into their own hands.

>>2887087
>>2889277
>>2889517
>>2894909
>>2897039
>>2909140
>>2909537
>tfw we got leftists defending Leo Strauss before GTA6

>>2897065
He literally had a groyper cult of his students.

>why didnt hitler arrest mengele

>>2910772
If AOC wins in 2028 she could theoretically hand over GWB, Wolfowitz, Perle, Bolton, and the rest of them to the international courts.

>>2911061
>AOC will totally do the right thing and not sell out immediately
Riiiiiight

File: 1789188356543-9.jpg (Spoiler Image,163.63 KB, 1308x1574, Bezos AOC not good enough.jpg)

>>2911505
Day 1 of the AOC presidency.

>>2907076
>>2911061
>>2911505
As someone that remembers the 2000s, let me tell you what's going to happen: None of these people are ever going to be held to account for what they've done. The state can not indict itself. AOC herself is almost certainly a CIA plant just like the rest of the Breadtube "Democratic socialists" that were in vogue back in 2018.
>>2904898
>>2905154
NGL, I'd rather have the meathead jocks crash USrael with no survivors instead of the second coming of Henry Kissenger.

>>2912092
>None of these people are ever going to be held to account for what they've done. The state can not indict itself.
Explain.

>>2910426
And what did he say that was particularly nefarious?

>>2911635
She’ll probably approve more aid to Israel the day after she assumes office.

>>2912132
NTA but nobody was ever held accountable for the War in Iraq. What makes you think the current generation of crooks will face justice?

Interesting how you can get 50+ years in fed prison for advocating blowing up an ICE detention centre, but those who promoted a full-scale invasion and war of aggression against a sovereign nation get zero prison time.

>>2909140
Are you familiar with Myles Burnyeat's polemic from the mid 80s, Sphinx Without a Secret? His complaint was seeing some Straussians in the Reagan administration (Carnes Lord and Leon Kass, I think? Maybe he had Robert Goldwin in mind too). Before that, the usual take on Straussians from the early 60s to the late 70s was that they were merely perverse scholars who were blinded by their teacher.


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