I fucking despise roaders. They have completely ossified mindsets and won't ever change their minds no matter how much I argue (and I argue constantly for the most minor points) while I will publicly criticise myself if I was found to have taken a wrong line. Like they just ignore any evidence I bring up about the fascist state of China. Roaders are set in their ways and won't ever change, they are ideological zombies and the only way to deal with them is to put a bullet in their head and eliminate an enemy to socialism.
Anti-revisionism thread
76 posts and 8 image replies omitted.>>2886475Proletarians have never done a revolution so far, only peasants
>>2886475What's the difference between unemployed proletarians and lumpens, I honestly don't really get it. Also I think lumpens have a class interest in abolishing capitalism, even if they aren't semantically 'revolutionary' the way the working class is, they have less reason to accept capitalism than even the peasantry does. If you are lumpen your class interest is only communism there is no way out like with the peasantry and progressive petit-bourgeois.
>>2886492The October revolution was completed when industrial workers took over Petrograd and Moscow. The civil war was won in the alliance with the peasantry, but this was a proletarian revolution.
>>2886514>What's the difference between unemployed proletarians and lumpensUnemployed proletarians still look for work, are able to do work, want to participate in the production process in some part willingly or unwillingly. Lumpens are out of it. Lumpens don't participate in the production process. They are on the margins of the market for all purposes. They are the brokest of the broke capitalists. This is why a lot of the petty bourgeoisie and at some historical point pauperized aristocracy turned lumpenproletariat and not proletarian. They didn't want to work. The lumpenprole has an aristocratic soul in some sense.
>If you are lumpen your class interest is only communism Same can be said of literally every class. Lumpens are not special in this regard. But
class is the wrong adjective here (that's why I crossed it out). Only proletarians have a class interest to end capitalism, because only this stops the reproduction of the proletariat (of labor power) and they can become autonomous, free, creative w/e workers. Lumpen class interest doesn't even exist, lumpen's can't constitute themselves a class through the political struggle, otherwise they would join rank with the proletariat in the course of this struggle (i.e. they would have to shed their aristocratic soul).
>>2886518Capitalism has largely stopped the reproduction of the proletariat, just look at fertility rates
>>2885878>Marxism isn't a dogma, but a constantly evolving scienceI must be feeling the same annoyance conservatives do when libtards claims the Constitution is a living document so you can just ignore what it says instead of bothering to change it through the proper channels.
Now is a good time to create new -isms and start from 0, so fuck both revisionists and antirevisionists
>>2886683>Now is a good time to create new -isms Autism.
>>2886473Rejected, ignored.
>>2886590Immigration has no problem compensating for it, so the proletariat as a class still gets reproduced
>>2886695Birth rates are below replacement level in India too, they will run out of workers even if they adopt “natalist” “family friendly” policies
>>2886698>they will run out of workersDo you not see that imperialists would genocide entire countries to keep profit rates high? Are you retarded on purpose?
>>2886700Not the countries they intend to draw labor from
>>2885865>If I'm a premierYou are going to be a grocery clerk
>>2886812Laundry detail at the gulag.
>>2885865Tankflag is the most embarrassing poster
Like the annoying kid that sat screaming in FPS lobbies a year ago
So recently I have been reading this:
https://medium.com/@alaricus96/cats-and-bowflies-b5a35625be0fIts an interesting and relatively detailed look into how the Korean leadership viewed Chinese revisionism.
I haven't finished it yet, but I think it might give some insight on why the DPRK never fell into capitalist restoration, and how revisionism, at least in the economic sphere (the most important sphere), was quite limited in both theory & practice.
>>2885798 are you retarded or a fed
>>2886932Greek communists are in no place to critique parties that actually achieved power
>>2887229- Fallacious reasoning; An argument from authority, and poor one at that. Just because someone has or doesn't have power, it does not mean their argument is correct or incorrect.
- The arguments the KKE presents are based on the Soviet experience & standards in building socialism during the Stalin years, wherein gosplan was empowered above all ministries & enterprises with decrees that had force of law, state enterprises could not make their own investment & supply chain decisions, etc. and that the market was limited to the consumer goods retail sector & trade between cooperatives & the state (Kolkhozes & Artels). Among other important things (Complete state monopoly on foreign trade, state control over all foreign investment & foreign investment mostly targetted towards foreign tech & knowhow absorption).
- The current KKE doesn't actually seek to build a party-state with itself at the helm. It views this as a dangerous path in the long term that undermines both the dictatorship of the proletariat & the vanguard party, by making the party a vehicle for careerists & opportunists to rise in social rank and hence dilute & corrupt the party's ideological focus, among other things.
- The KKE does on fact hold (some) formal state power today, mainly at the municipal level (most prominent eg. Peletidis in Patra). Furthermore, it did actually historically achieve power during the Nazi occupation over about 3/4 of Greek territory (sometimes called the mountain government) as well as in the areas it controlled during the civil war.
- The person making this critique is using a Greek pseudonym. On actuality he is a German speaking person & member of a German party. So he is not only not a confirmed member of the KKE, he may not have any Greek ancestry at all.
>>2887278The KKE having limited power within the bourgeois system is only a mark against them, for they have all this power but they still won't use it for revolution. It is an idea of a slow creep of reform until revolution is possible. It is totally a revisionist plan of taking power that has never worked and won't ever work. The KKE has made itself another arm of the bourgeois state, just one with anti-revisionist rhetoric.
>>2887278If your line was correct you would have won the civil war
>>2887293This is vulgar idealism. A correct ideological line does not guarantee victory in an armed conflict. There is the natter of material constraints, the strength of the enemy, organization, strategy, tactics, and hell even luck.
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>>2887292You are projecting a position onto the KKE that it does not hold. In fact, if you bothered to read any material that it has put out, it holds the same view you do. Moreover, it regularly, almost pedantically & ad nauseam attacks reformistic politics & the idea of stagist progress towards socialism.
https://www.idcommunism.com/2026/08/kke-contribution-at-24th-international-meeting-of-communist-and-workers-parties-in-havana.htmlIn fact the main attack against ot is usually is usually the inverse, that its too dogmatic and refuses reformism, which was the whole masturbatory attacks from Syriza (& still is) and other socdemites.
The reason it participates in elections is for combination of tactical reasons:
- For agitprop & visibility amongst the working masses.
- To capture the excess income that civil servants earn for the party, which both strengths its position materially & demonstrates that communists are willing to sacrifice a substantial portion their personal material wellbeing fir the cause.
- Most importantly, to demonstrate that small improvements are possible but strictly limited under capitalism, and moreover that it requires mass mobilization for such (hence why it has for some 25ish years dedicated far more ideological and material support to building PAME, worker associations & the party base organizations, rather than the parliamentary group and the municipal elections)
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/greeceatlse/2012/09/02/understanding-the-greek-communist-party/That its not immediately engaging in aed struggled is because that such a move in present conditions would be adventurist & end in defeat, even if it had a super majority of the Greek population behind it (Greece is a small tourism dependent country with a population of 10 million; Only a broader coalition with substantial numbers of resolute communists from the rest of the Balkans & Anatolia would stand a chance)
>>2887301*That it is not immediately engaging in armed struggle at this time
>>2887301As long as you’re in parliament your party is reformist in content
>>2887301So: They engage in elections, and they don't support actual revolution in Greece, just a theoretical coalition across the Balkans and Anatolia which doesn't exist.
This is just the same as every other stagnant revisionist party that gets too invested in electoral rubbish and ends up saying revolution is impossible in the country. This is always where too much of an attachment to electoralism ends up. It is also pathetic that they can't imagine Greece as a sovereign socialist republic. The entirety of Ireland is only 7.5 million people but they don't need a coalition with British states in order to be an independent republic. The population of my country is 3 million but we are still managing to organise effectively and build towards a socialist republican future. Greece is in a far better situation in both land, resources and geography than us, but your leading communist party won't try to build socialism there even though it is one of the most powerful pre-revolutionary parties in the world.
I am strongly against the KKE because I have comrades in the Connolly Youth Movement who have had to split because the KKE-aligned revisionist headquarters (in Dublin ofc) denying colonialism in the occupied 6 counties and claiming Northern Ireland is a nation (this is the same as calling I$rael a nation), which erases the struggle of those comrades in the occupied part of Ireland.
>>2887314Oh fair enough if we are enemies for other reasons. Don't however spread other false narratives & invent bullshit to exaggerate why you hate us.
The KKE has a long term strategy and actually has a real history & experience of not only armed struggle, being operating underground while banned for decades. Ergo it cannot have illusions about building socialism today or tomorrow in Greece. Its a protracted struggle that will require decades, and change in the international correlation forces.
It is therefore false & dishonest to claim that the KKE says that socialism is impossible in Greece; The real difference here is that you think ot cam be done quickly & be sustain whereas the KKE does not believe this.
If you believe you can achieve socialism in Ireland, not only by itself & but also sustainably and in the next few years, by all means, go ahead. We aren't standing in your way.
But to accuse us of electoralism (completely false) because you hate the fact that we indirectly contributed to a split in your country is dishonest & degenerate.
You can simply hate us for that without inventing additional reasons that are false. If anything promoting demonstrable falsehoods just serves to weaken you.
I will add a general point:
People are hopeful when in fact the situation pf the international communist movement is extremely precarious. We do not have major international sponsor and the fact that our Greek party seen as strong even by our in movement enemies goes to show how weak the international movement is.
The fact that the subjective factor as minorly improved since the devastation of the devastation of the 90s is a meager gain at best. If anything it has only serve to strengthen both socdemite & adventurist illusions in the present.
It will take major catastrophe like the first world war to bring us substantial results. In the meantime we we have to build up our organizational capacity, develop anti-revisionism further, warn the proletariat of the incoming danger, & generally prepare enclaves that will serve as means for maneuver when conditions inevitably deteriorate.
>>2887323Look I am sorry I have not properly explained why I am criticising the party for this. Any party which is developed to a point that it has national level influence and power must engage in protracted people's war, or it is revisionist. The KKE is not engaging in armed struggle so I am criticising it for that reason (also because I have some problems with their theory of imperialism, which the Hoxhaist party in Turkey did a good article on which I can't find).
>>2887331Your stupid formulas don't work no more. Who is gonna fight the PPE in Greece? The conditions are note ripe for that. Maybe when the contradictions are more strong, so that there is a general reason to engage in a civil war. Not that I have any love for the KKE, it's just what it is.
>>2887331Its perfectly fine to be an enemy & hold a different strategy should be pursued. Just don't invent stuff or misuse labels.
Electoralism means sticking to elections as the only or primary means to achieve socialism; It doesn't mean participating elections tout court as a Communist Party. Otherwise even the Bolsheviks under Lenin would be considered electoralist by such a definition.
Revisionism is a broader term and has the potential for large equivocation; To say the KKE is revisionist in the same way that Post-Mao CPC or Post-Khruschev CPSU is/was, is to confuse matters; Its to say its adopted a stagist, reformist, capitulationist, etc. theory & practice when it really hasn't.
Just come put and say you think that the KKE could not only wage an armed struggle, but be victorious, and relatively quickly, and be able build a sustainable socialism that would be narrowly confined the borders of Greece alone.
We disagree with this assessment a deep level, but its a real disagreement on strategy. Its not about participating in elections, or gaining a few concessions via combinations of union strikes, coordinated mass protest & municipal influence. That's just tactics, not long term strategy & much less ideological committment.
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I myself have some disagreements with the party at the theoretical level. Despite recognizing the disproportionate size of the petty bourgeoisie & labour aristocracy, they still lean towards revolution being possible in the first world independently & before the third world.
>>2887331You are an embarrassing idiot whose approach to "communism" is through dogmatic application of abstract formulas (idealist) which have nothing to do with proven Marxist, Leninist or Maoist revolutionary praxis. Gonzaloist clown in Britain not waging an armed struggle themselves. Go kill yourself by mall cop so we can be free of your stupid fucking paragraphs. I am done showing respectful critiques towards you any longer. Go fuck yourself you spoiled hypocritical peud.
S-poster does not Analyze or Learn, they Believe. That is their main problem.
>>2887515That's not very constructive.
at a certain point you have to realize you're arguing with a mental deficit rather than someone holding a serious political view
>>2887278>the only true revisionism is abandoning class struggle which Chyna very much haven'tThe top VIP of the goyim right here
>>2885787Marx said socialism would have to be implemented by workers themselves, not from above. Lenin said workers can only attain trade union consciousness. Oh well.
>>2885894this was a super fun read, where can i read the full essay?
>>2886380I give a shit, and now your entire arguement has been dissolved. I'm tired of people having such a stick up their ass, all the fucking time.
>>2888206Thanks, I'll post it one day but still working on it and also there's other reasons I can't release all parts.
>>2888219I don't sound like that anymore tho, I locked in with voice training
>>2888248You have completely ignored my point here
>>2886518 btw
>>2888248dm me when its out!! my discord octobermoder
>>2888260I think we just had different understandings of what the lumpen-proletariat were. I've honestly ignored writings on the lumpen-proletariat because they are usually very chauvinistic or unfair. More than that I just think what a lot of people say about them isn't really objective or scientific. I'm unconvinced by what Marx, Engels and Lenin had to say about them, and I'm more convinced by what Mao and later Maoists had to say about working with the lumpen-proletariat as a major allied force like the peasants can be (even though you are totally correct that only the working class can be strictly revolutionary).
What I have been using lumpen for just means anyone who is "unclassed", who doesn't have a direct relation to the means of production or work. Like I'd say students are very similar to the lumpen (at least the idea of the lumpen I was thinking of. I might have been using terms imprecisely.
Still I'm not sure about why you consider these people 'the brokest of the broke capitalists', or having an 'aristocratic soul'. It's basically a moral judgement that that is very similar to how the state attacks long-term unemployed people. Nobody would work if they didn't have to, I'm not sure that's aristocratic in any way.
Idk it all feels very moral to me. Like 'they're not revolutionary because they're all leeches and criminals'. So like, why does that matter? Doesn't that make them more likely to side with the revolution? Also, I think the lumpen-proletariat is difficult to define even as a class itself. I think it might be better to just call these people unclassed and dispel the moral attachments of the lumpen-proletariat. My opinion has not been completely solidified yet and I'm still unsure about things.
I kind of think they are uniquely revolutionary along with the working class, because it isn't really a class. So of course there are plenty of unclassed people with working class consciousness or who are just unemployed proletarians, who in every meaningful way are proletarian. But there are also unclassed people with bourgeois consciousness (criminals who think they are going to get rich). Also there are plenty of unclassed people with feudal / pre-capitalist consciousnesses as well in the colonised countries. Idk, I just don't think the lumpen-proletariat is necessarily a useful term.
>>2888312Said that wrong, I don't think they are uniquely revolutionary along with the working class, I don't think they could ever be the driving force because only the working class has the direct need to end exploitation, but I think unclassed people are much more 'revolutionary' than even the peasants are.
Without the cultural revolution there will be no socialism. Sorry!
>>2886812>>2886831>>2886819How nice of you ""communists"" to self-report that you take communism so unseriously you literally can't even imagine it, or what it would take to establish it.
>""Left"" ""com""As if I ever doubted it.
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