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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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No, seriously. What causes someone to become a left communist? Too much reading and not enough living in the real world? Just trying to find a leftist ideology that excuses total inaction?
99 posts and 17 image replies omitted.

All leftcom parties are a joke and are rightfully mocked as orgcucks

>>2891770
Linguistic quality: 2000s chatbot; reply discarded

>>2890588
> there's a reason why every communist revolutionary vanguard party in history has been composed of middle-class intellectuals and not actual laborers
This is simply not true. Most parties, but particularly the RSDLP were composed of a broad strata of social classes, including both middle class intellectuals as well as lower class laborers. While the leadership of these parties was generally skewed to the higher educated and somewhat of a higher social class than the rank and file, that is just a byproduct of effective organization. You're going to utilize people's talents and experience according to their effectiveness. It has very little to do with some sort of psychological reading of how these people "see themselves"


They are correct technically as "left-communism" is litteraly just Leninism. But they seems more animated by contrarianism than rigor which make them have disastrous takes and nihilistic geopol positions.

>>2891740
What the fuck did I just read

>>2891834
>nihilistic geopol positions.
we just reject geopol as the bourgeois pseudoscience it is, just like real MLs did in the past, unlike the dengoid multipolaroids that larp as MLs here

this is the only type of "left unity" thats not full blown hitler-tier reactionary trash btw

>>2891787
Okay unc

Is ICP the class party?

>>2891843
Deng ensured the Communist Party remained in control of China after his death.
Hoxha ensured that the Communist Party completely fucking shit the bed and abandoned Marxism the first chance it received.
And yet Hoxhaists really try to pretend that they're more "pure" or a higher form of Marxist when their own fucking figurehead couldn't even guarantee continuity of the DOTP post-death.

>>2891861
go back to r/neolib where you belong you disgusting dengbot

In China and in Vietnam today, there are:
>Stock exchanges
>Billionaire CEOs
>Legal protections for private property
>Private industries working to generate surplus value for state endorsed capitalists
>Economies based on commodity production by wage labourers to generate surplus value
>No concrete plans to transition to production for use value - just extremely vague promises of eventual transition beginning in a distant future
>Celebrations of state approved capitalists as "pioneers on the economic front"
This is capitalism however you look at it.
I don't think any of that is really debatable, it's clear and open fact, these are state capitalist economies which today can barely bothered to produce any copium excuses about their capitalist economics.

So then why do MLoids feel the need, rather than addressing these contradictions between Marxist theory and real world economic policy in supposedly socialist states, to instead argue with LeftComs online and try to look for ways to interpret Marx's writings where by they can justify this state of affairs?
You spend your time trying to argue semantics and do theoretical gymnastics as to how Marx's definitions of the attributes of a capitalist economics can be twisted to exempt commodity production in China and the USSR, to explain how wage labour to generate surplus value in China, Vietnam, and the USSR somehow can somehow be socialist.
It's bizarre and reeks of a defense of capitalism with a red flag, which is what it is.

ML-ism and Dengism are right deviations that, while initially improving conditions for their respective countries, have clearly abandoned any attempt at building socialism, devolving into state capitalism with social democratic qualities.
If all ML states eventually slide back into capitalism, after 110 years of attempts, then maybe think why that is hmm?

Not even going to go into how SIOC is an entirely un-Marxist revision invented by Stalin one day just because, or how not giving all power to the soviets but instead centralising power was a major mistake.

>>2891903
It's funny because most Maoists form the 70s are neolibs today

>>2891919
just like hoxha predicted

>>2891917
you convinced me. spamming twenty threads about how china is capitalist will bring communism by the tenday.

>>2891917
>So then why do MLoids feel the need, rather than addressing these contradictions between Marxist theory and real world economic policy in supposedly socialist states, to instead argue with LeftComs online and try to look for ways to interpret Marx's writings where by they can justify this state of affairs?
>It's bizarre and reeks of a defense of capitalism with a red flag
I think its just an emotional thing, a way to cope with the lack of the workers movement in their own countries
>>2891934
>catty, spiteful non-response
case in point

>>2891934
And what of spamming twenty threads seething about left communists?

>>2891903
China isn't neoliberal. Y'all love to lie about China it's so tiresome.

>>2891988
China opening up was literally the single biggest instance of scabbing in history, they destroyed the international proletariat for their own selfish desires when it wasn’t necessary

File: 1786719067034-6.jpg (48.6 KB, 461x680, criticalsupport.jpg)

>China isn't neoliberal. Y'all love to lie about China it's so tiresome.

>>2891992
No they were right to. Eastern socialist states should not languish in poverty. Western states had all the time in the world to launch a revolution but they were bought off with keynesian reforms. You are essentially demanding that a billion Chinese continue to sit in poverty because your wages were being pushed up through them not interacting at all with the global economy, so you could continue receiving imperialist bribes as your country continued to blow up others. You are no different from Bernie Sanders and are not a communist.
Also China's reform and opening up granted the Communist Party legitimacy and ensured that when the Tiananmen color revolution was attempted they could crush it cleanly without falling into a civil war. If they had done as you wished and continued to remain isolated then in all likelyhood there would have been Chinese perestroika and glasnost.

>>2892022
Nobody is a communist and there is no united working class interest if this is the case

>>2892022
>You are no different from Bernie Sanders
hilarious coming from a dengoid

>>2892026
Of course there is united working class interest and it is China that is pushing the class struggle forward. I find it hilarious some retard is accusing China of scabbing on a mass scale when that's actually America's strategy by destroying countries with the IMF and World Bank or through military intervention. Scabs only exist due to desperation and a willingness to do anything in exchange for breadcrumbs. America constantly blowing up countries and supporting criminal networks is increasing the global reserve pool of labor worldwide, but I'm supposed to believe it's China that's scabbing when the Chinese are attempting to pull up all the lagging nations with trade and development in order to accelerate the class struggle. If China's strategy succeeds the western left will also benefit. If every country gets richer then the Western multinationals will no longer be able to force countries to play arbitrage against each other. But do the so called "leftcoms" understand this? No because all of them are retarded and don't study anything.

>>2891917
>So then why do MLoids feel the need, rather than addressing these contradictions between Marxist theory and real world economic policy in supposedly socialist states
The debate about China and Vietnam isn't (necessarily) about whether they currently have socialist economies, its about whether they are revolutionary states engaged in some form of socialist construction.
>to instead argue with LeftComs online and try to look for ways to interpret Marx's writings where by they can justify this state of affairs?
Aside from the standard internet debate addiction that everybody on this website is guilty of, there's the practical consideration of not wanting to manufacture consent for US aggression against China. This would be the obligation of every Western socialist regardless of whether they considered China to be a revolutionary, progressive, or socialist state. Revolutionary defeatism would be a paramount practical consideration in the context of Sino-American conflict.

>>2892079
>there's the practical consideration of not wanting to manufacture consent for US aggression against China
just say no war but class war, there, its that simple, no need to pretend capitalism is socialism

File: 1786725755394-6.jpg (170.94 KB, 1080x1080, 1773524360560.jpg)

>>2892106
>just say no war but class war
That needs to be paired with constant agitation against US imperialism and exposure of the real causes and interests behind the conflict. That's not a goal that's helped by writing extensive polemics about why China is bad. I'd agree that it's not a big deal when it comes to bickering on leftypol, but this shouldn't be an outward facing message directed at workers in the West. For them the question of whether China is socialist is pretty much irrelevant.

>>2892115
>That's not a goal that's helped by writing extensive polemics about why China is bad.
pointing out the capitalist mode of production exists in China is not a moral judgement and I don't see how lying about its helpful in any way
if anything pretending China is communist might help manufacture consent more as long as the majority of the population thinks commies are le bad

File: 1786727042710-2.png (38.87 KB, 774x268, ghjkhjkhjhjk.png)

>>2892126
I can't believe that retard logo is getting proven right every day

the DSA will "finally win", USA will get thousand year nazicrat-soccdem reich and imperial plunder will be justified by "progressive world fighting against reactionary nationalist regimes"

>>2892132
Good, marx justified and came in his pants when he saw the US stealing land from Mexico and the indigenous, why wouldn’t he cheer for the enslavement of the lazy Chinese?

>>2892132
I heard DSA was getting close with the CCP, which makes sense since their definitions of socialism are very similar (when the goverment does stuff), so I think they will get along fine if they finally get their new FDR, just how the original did with the USSR

>>2890316
Why the fuck is it called capitalism and not commoditism then you sucker?

>>2892211
There are non capitalist commodities but communism means no commodities period, at all.

>>2890512
So if in a given territory every feudal lord produces wool, grain, and other stuff as commodities destined for market sale he automatically is a capitalist, even though he is employing serf labour, even though the state system of right has the typical feudal provincial, estamental, propery-right and fiscal exceptionalities, even though the money he is earning will be spent in luxury commodities and not reinvested in technology and to expand the firm, even though… And i could go on forever. I didn't know what a leftcom was until I browsed this site, but if they are all like yourself, it seems they are commodity-essentialist Marxists, putting the whole weight of the concept of capitalism in a single element while putting everything else as secondary.

>>2892212
Low commodity production exists under communism. Yes, you will still have gift baskets and shit.

>>2892234
No you won’t, not unless you put in an order before the economic plan for the year is set

>>2892035
>and it is China that is pushing the class struggle forward
The only China is pushing forward are profits and nationalism
>I find it hilarious some retard is accusing China of scabbing on a mass scale when that's actually America's strategy by destroying countries with the IMF and World Bank or through military intervention
That’s not what scabbing means
>If China's strategy succeeds the western left will also benefit
If China’s strategy succeeds, we’re all dead. The only longterm plan China has is on how to win the great game of capitalism without overextension. Everything else is secondary.

>>2892236
>No you won’t
Yes, we will. You are not getting rid of simple favors and gifts just because you feel like it.
>not unless you put in an order before the economic plan for the year is set
Order to whom? Exactly.

>>2892248
To the production office, it’s for use

>>2892253
A production office (not bureaucratic ran by the way) would not be utilized for gift pies unless they were being mass produced.

Socialism is impossible because under any hypothetical economy me and my friend could conspire to produce commodities for exchange with each other

>>2892262
wrong, ze party already chipped your brain so it will stop you before you even talk to your friend

>>2892222
>So if in a given territory every feudal lord produces wool, grain, and other stuff as commodities destined for market sale he automatically is a capitalist, even though he is employing serf labour, even though the state system of right has the typical feudal provincial, estamental, propery-right and fiscal exceptionalities, even though the money he is earning will be spent in luxury commodities and not reinvested in technology and to expand the firm, even though…
Serfdom / feudalism is distinct and separate to capitalism. Capitalism was a historically progressive force when it emerged out of feudalism, for that time period.
As I explained already in the post you replied to - when Marx referenced that there are non-capitalist economies with commodity production he was explicitly making reference to systems of serfdom and feudalism.
There's plenty that's been written on the beginnings of capitalism and what makes it different from feudalism.

>>2892363
How does that the debunk the notion that commodity production can exist in a marginal form under lower stage socialism or at least the DotP? If anything it reinforces the notion that capitalism is defined by generalized commodity production.

WARNING: LONG POST ALERT !!!!!!

>>2892222
>I didn't know what a leftcom was until I browsed this site

Left Communism simply refers to any communist position that can be considered to the left of Marxism-Leninism, excluding Anarchism.
That said there are some differences and similarities between the most common types of left communist. I'll try to explain the essential elements:

>Things basically all Left Communists share in common:

They're revolutionary communists, which means they want a stateless, classless, moneyless society, without private property, achieved via a proletarian revolution.

They are against parliamentarianism, electoralism and engagement in bourgeois democratic institutions broadly - which they derogatively refer to as Kautskyism.
They are against reformism, social democracy, and gradual improvements in worker's rights via making deals and compromise with the liberal bourgeois state - which they derogatively refer to as Lassalleanism.

They're proletarian internationalists - they consider socialism in one country ("SIOC") to be a modernisation and deviation from Marxism invented by Stalin, and that no proletarian revolution can succeed if it is not international.
To this end they support "no war but class war" - and supporting revolutionary defeatism in all other wars besides class war, and are opposed to all nationalism.
Most are broadly opposed to national liberation movements. Some do support national liberation so long as it's explicitly proletarian and socialist in character.

They recognise the economic transition to the abolition of commodity production and the abolition of production for exchange value as of paramount importance within establishing socialism, and the transition to production for use value as a step that should be completed relatively quickly, beginning more or less immediately after revolution and being completed in a matter of years.
The count the failure to achieve this (along with SIOC) as the key reasons for the failure of previous "socialist" states.
As a result, ask a left communist if socialism has ever been tried and most will reply with "Only briefly during the Paris Commune, and the very first few years of the USSR", or perhaps a simple "No".
As a result they consider that China, Vietnam, Cuba, the USSR, etc are all essentially forms of state capitalism or social democracy for having failed to achieve this economic transition.
They refer to current Marxist-Leninist regimes and defenders of the economic systems of said regimes derogatively as Lassalleans, Dengists/Dengoids, or will just use "ML / ML-oid" itself as a slur.

They are critical of trade unionism in general, considering most established trade unions to be fully integrated for the most part into the capitalist machine. It's more of an opposition to the state of the trade union movement, that being opposed to the concept in theory. They would support unions in theory if they believed them not to be captured institutions.

They are also opposed to popular fronts - that is forming alliances with liberals, centrists, social democrats, to co-ordinate the fight fascists - believing it will lead to the movement moderating its aims and positions to appease bourgeois and liberal elements, shifting the movement to the right. They still of course fight back against fascism - but only along side other communists and socialists.

They believe in worker self-emancipation - that is an opposition to vanguardism, and that the proletariat must liberate itself and start the revolution. It isn't for the party (if there is one) to declare the moment of revolutionary action - they would consider this adventurism, but to listen to the people and educate them and prepare for the time they choose. Revolution should emerge from the workers organising themselves, not from a class of professional revolutionaries.
They are also largely considered pretty fucking autistic, shut-ins, people who read too much and don't get enough fresh air.
These last two points - waiting for the revolution, reading too much theory - is the source of a lot of memes about left communists and armchairs.

Now we can discuss the different tendencies:

>Italian Left Communism

This is also often called Bordigism, after Amadeo Bordiga - perhaps the most infamous left communist of all time.
Many Italian Left Communists really hate being called Bordigists though, since they don't like cults of personality.
These people are the most memeable and autistic Left Communists, and they make and create a lot of memes in their own communities, which they usually ban all non-Bordigists from partaking in.

Italian Left Communists are Leninists, but reject Stalin, the USSR post-Lenin, or any "socialist" states that came later.

Unlike Trotskyists who think Stalin was a big meanie and too "authoritarian", Bordigists are opposed to Stalin's USSR for being too capitalistic, for the reasons above regarding commodity production and production of goods for exchange value, and the lack of transition to what they perceive as socialist economics - ie the abolition of commodities and production of goods for use value.
They also support a transition from nationalisation to worker self-management - that is after the transition to what they consider a socialist economy has been implemented and is securely in place.

They see Marxism as a fixed scientific theory. An invariable doctrine. Therefore revising theoretical positions makes no logical sense, since you can't change what the science of Marxism says to match current fluctuations in popular opinion.
As a result they oppose democratic centralism, as a "stupid head-count" that favours sheer numbers and popularity over the unwavering theoretical correctness of a point, and also for being too bureaucratic.
Rather they support a system of organic centralism, where by if theory is correctly understood and applied as a science it should organically lead all members of the party to the same outcome. Like a hive mind consensus or something.

They support the party form, but reject electoralism, believing the party should primarily educate people on the correct theory.

>Council Communism

This is also sometimes referred to as Councilism or Dutch-German Left Communism. Anton Pannekoek is perhaps the most famous Council Communist.
In many ways they sound a little similar to Anarchists, but don't say that to them or they'll get upset.

They of course adhere to all the internationalist and anti-commodity production points outlined above, but their unique selling point is they believe in "all power to the soviets".
They split away precisely *because* of Lenin deciding to change his mind on this point and centralising power in the USSR. Then he also wrote a book calling them "childish".

It's pretty self explanatory, but they believe the Dictatorship of the Proletariat should be organised via workers councils representing each group of people, region, industry, etc.
Rather than representative democracy, you take direct part in the councils. Members of local councils can then be elected to regional councils, those on regional councils to national councils, etc.

They are almost always against the party form. (The KAPD being a rare example of a Councilist party).
They claim political parties inevitably cause the interests of members to diverge from that of the proletariat, with that divergence worsening over time, leading to corruption, power grabbing, internal strife and splits, etc.

They tend to strongly support worker self-management and workplace democracy.

>The Situationists

As much an art movement as one of Marxism, focused largely on applying Marxist political theory to the social life. Guy Debord is the most well known figure.
They mostly held opinions in line with Councilist and "Libertarian Marxist" thinkers. Artistically speaking they were heavily influenced by Dadaism and Surrealism.

They were the first to recognise and write on the notion of "the Spectacle" - capitalism increasingly dominates daily life via the social situations we experience second hand in media, which keeps us alienated from the world.
Capitalism keeps you dull and just entertained enough not to do anything by making you consume too much. Too much pointless irrelevant news, too much TV, too many adverts.
Consuming media is effectively second hand living. You're living someone else's experience, a fiction, and too much of that alienates you from the world. Capitalism is pushing consumption on you and wants you to do more of it.
The establishment always has some pointless liberal or apolitical crap to distract you from so you never consider class consciousness and churn them a profit even while you're not at work.

What should you do? Engage in the revolution of daily life.
Most people just accept whatever social reality life gave them without question. Most people accept the spectacle and engage with it.
How? Do things that disrupt monotony. Rather than engage in the spectacle, just take a long walk, go get lost, go walk around a neighbourhood you don't know and have no business being in.
Disrupt the spectacle. Graffiti shit that will make people think. When you see a corporate billboard or poster vandalise it with a message that'll, for a moment, pull people from the spectacle of consuming the advert and to think on something else.

>Communization

Emerged from failures of the primarily left communist inspired riots in Paris in May 1968, and from the subsequent critique of Bordigism, Council Communism and Situationism that followed.
There's three main currents:
>That of Gilles Dauve, which is Marxist, and claims communization theory has always been applicable throughout the capitalist age
>That of Theorie Communiste and Endnotes, also Marxist, and claims that communization has only recently become a possibility
>That of Tiqqun and the Invisible Committee, who are Anarchists

Not gonna lie half the theorists in the communization bubble write so densely that it's near impossible to parse. They like to jerk themselves off like that I suppose.
That said here's what I gather from it:

They essentially believe that there is no need for - nor is it really possible any longer - to have a worker's state with a transitionary period of socialism between capitalism and communism, and the proof is that all attempts so far have failed and ended in the development of state capitalism.
The solution? There needs to be a fundamental change in approach.
Which is that when revolution occurs, there must be very quickly - pretty much immediately - a jump from capitalism to communism.
The revolution must consist of immediate communizing measures implemented as it is all unfolding.
Wage labour, commodity production, production for exchange value, the law of value, and so on, needs to be ended as the revolution take place.
The capitalist social relations of private property, the class structure, money, and the state, and markets be abolished and dismantled on sight and immediate swapped for communist relations.
No transition periods for anything.

Furthermore they stress that the "worker's movement" and trade unions are broadly captured and work with capitalist, bourgeois institutions. The same as the criticism of trade unions the other left communists have.
They therefore stress heavily the notion of the self-abolition of the proletariat. Because you can't have a classless society if you have a proletariat. Both the capitalist class and proletariat - both poles of the class system - must be dissolved.
Marx also spoke on this. Stating that a class "can emancipate itself only by abolishing itself as a class and all classes.", and also "when the proletariat is victorious, it by no means becomes the absolute side of society, for it is victorious only by abolishing itself and its opposite".
This means abolishing the conditions that cause them to exist as a class - ie the capitalist social relations and economic system.

They're critical of formal organisations and largely supportive of insurrectionary activity, having supposedly been responsible for several acts of sabotage and terrorism in Europe, perhaps most notably in 2008, 9 alleged Anarchist Communizers with alleged links to the Invisible Committee allegedly sabotaged various railways across France in what the French government called an act of "ultra-left terrorism".

>>2892513
>They are also largely considered pretty fucking autistic, shut-ins, people who read too much and don't get enough fresh air.
They don't even lift.

>>2892513

thanks for the long post warning, my patience is very low and my time is extremely valuable, who knows what would have happened to me if i had actually read all of that.

>>2892513
To me leftcom is somebody who is addicted to porn, malding and has a deep seated urge to make it everyone elses problem.

>>2890255
Bordigists =/= Left Communists


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