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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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No, seriously. What causes someone to become a left communist? Too much reading and not enough living in the real world? Just trying to find a leftist ideology that excuses total inaction?
131 posts and 21 image replies omitted.

>>2890316
Why the fuck is it called capitalism and not commoditism then you sucker?

>>2892211
There are non capitalist commodities but communism means no commodities period, at all.

>>2890512
So if in a given territory every feudal lord produces wool, grain, and other stuff as commodities destined for market sale he automatically is a capitalist, even though he is employing serf labour, even though the state system of right has the typical feudal provincial, estamental, propery-right and fiscal exceptionalities, even though the money he is earning will be spent in luxury commodities and not reinvested in technology and to expand the firm, even though… And i could go on forever. I didn't know what a leftcom was until I browsed this site, but if they are all like yourself, it seems they are commodity-essentialist Marxists, putting the whole weight of the concept of capitalism in a single element while putting everything else as secondary.

>>2892212
Low commodity production exists under communism. Yes, you will still have gift baskets and shit.

>>2892234
No you won’t, not unless you put in an order before the economic plan for the year is set

>>2892035
>and it is China that is pushing the class struggle forward
The only China is pushing forward are profits and nationalism
>I find it hilarious some retard is accusing China of scabbing on a mass scale when that's actually America's strategy by destroying countries with the IMF and World Bank or through military intervention
That’s not what scabbing means
>If China's strategy succeeds the western left will also benefit
If China’s strategy succeeds, we’re all dead. The only longterm plan China has is on how to win the great game of capitalism without overextension. Everything else is secondary.

>>2892236
>No you won’t
Yes, we will. You are not getting rid of simple favors and gifts just because you feel like it.
>not unless you put in an order before the economic plan for the year is set
Order to whom? Exactly.

>>2892248
To the production office, it’s for use

>>2892253
A production office (not bureaucratic ran by the way) would not be utilized for gift pies unless they were being mass produced.

Socialism is impossible because under any hypothetical economy me and my friend could conspire to produce commodities for exchange with each other

>>2892262
wrong, ze party already chipped your brain so it will stop you before you even talk to your friend

>>2892222
>So if in a given territory every feudal lord produces wool, grain, and other stuff as commodities destined for market sale he automatically is a capitalist, even though he is employing serf labour, even though the state system of right has the typical feudal provincial, estamental, propery-right and fiscal exceptionalities, even though the money he is earning will be spent in luxury commodities and not reinvested in technology and to expand the firm, even though…
Serfdom / feudalism is distinct and separate to capitalism. Capitalism was a historically progressive force when it emerged out of feudalism, for that time period.
As I explained already in the post you replied to - when Marx referenced that there are non-capitalist economies with commodity production he was explicitly making reference to systems of serfdom and feudalism.
There's plenty that's been written on the beginnings of capitalism and what makes it different from feudalism.

>>2892363
How does that the debunk the notion that commodity production can exist in a marginal form under lower stage socialism or at least the DotP? If anything it reinforces the notion that capitalism is defined by generalized commodity production.

WARNING: LONG POST ALERT !!!!!!

>>2892222
>I didn't know what a leftcom was until I browsed this site

Left Communism simply refers to any communist position that can be considered to the left of Marxism-Leninism, excluding Anarchism.
That said there are some differences and similarities between the most common types of left communist. I'll try to explain the essential elements:

>Things basically all Left Communists share in common:

They're revolutionary communists, which means they want a stateless, classless, moneyless society, without private property, achieved via a proletarian revolution.

They are against parliamentarianism, electoralism and engagement in bourgeois democratic institutions broadly - which they derogatively refer to as Kautskyism.
They are against reformism, social democracy, and gradual improvements in worker's rights via making deals and compromise with the liberal bourgeois state - which they derogatively refer to as Lassalleanism.

They're proletarian internationalists - they consider socialism in one country ("SIOC") to be a modernisation and deviation from Marxism invented by Stalin, and that no proletarian revolution can succeed if it is not international.
To this end they support "no war but class war" - and supporting revolutionary defeatism in all other wars besides class war, and are opposed to all nationalism.
Most are broadly opposed to national liberation movements. Some do support national liberation so long as it's explicitly proletarian and socialist in character.

They recognise the economic transition to the abolition of commodity production and the abolition of production for exchange value as of paramount importance within establishing socialism, and the transition to production for use value as a step that should be completed relatively quickly, beginning more or less immediately after revolution and being completed in a matter of years.
The count the failure to achieve this (along with SIOC) as the key reasons for the failure of previous "socialist" states.
As a result, ask a left communist if socialism has ever been tried and most will reply with "Only briefly during the Paris Commune, and the very first few years of the USSR", or perhaps a simple "No".
As a result they consider that China, Vietnam, Cuba, the USSR, etc are all essentially forms of state capitalism or social democracy for having failed to achieve this economic transition.
They refer to current Marxist-Leninist regimes and defenders of the economic systems of said regimes derogatively as Lassalleans, Dengists/Dengoids, or will just use "ML / ML-oid" itself as a slur.

They are critical of trade unionism in general, considering most established trade unions to be fully integrated for the most part into the capitalist machine. It's more of an opposition to the state of the trade union movement, that being opposed to the concept in theory. They would support unions in theory if they believed them not to be captured institutions.

They are also opposed to popular fronts - that is forming alliances with liberals, centrists, social democrats, to co-ordinate the fight fascists - believing it will lead to the movement moderating its aims and positions to appease bourgeois and liberal elements, shifting the movement to the right. They still of course fight back against fascism - but only along side other communists and socialists.

They believe in worker self-emancipation - that is an opposition to vanguardism, and that the proletariat must liberate itself and start the revolution. It isn't for the party (if there is one) to declare the moment of revolutionary action - they would consider this adventurism, but to listen to the people and educate them and prepare for the time they choose. Revolution should emerge from the workers organising themselves, not from a class of professional revolutionaries.
They are also largely considered pretty fucking autistic, shut-ins, people who read too much and don't get enough fresh air.
These last two points - waiting for the revolution, reading too much theory - is the source of a lot of memes about left communists and armchairs.

Now we can discuss the different tendencies:

>Italian Left Communism

This is also often called Bordigism, after Amadeo Bordiga - perhaps the most infamous left communist of all time.
Many Italian Left Communists really hate being called Bordigists though, since they don't like cults of personality.
These people are the most memeable and autistic Left Communists, and they make and create a lot of memes in their own communities, which they usually ban all non-Bordigists from partaking in.

Italian Left Communists are Leninists, but reject Stalin, the USSR post-Lenin, or any "socialist" states that came later.

Unlike Trotskyists who think Stalin was a big meanie and too "authoritarian", Bordigists are opposed to Stalin's USSR for being too capitalistic, for the reasons above regarding commodity production and production of goods for exchange value, and the lack of transition to what they perceive as socialist economics - ie the abolition of commodities and production of goods for use value.
They also support a transition from nationalisation to worker self-management - that is after the transition to what they consider a socialist economy has been implemented and is securely in place.

They see Marxism as a fixed scientific theory. An invariable doctrine. Therefore revising theoretical positions makes no logical sense, since you can't change what the science of Marxism says to match current fluctuations in popular opinion.
As a result they oppose democratic centralism, as a "stupid head-count" that favours sheer numbers and popularity over the unwavering theoretical correctness of a point, and also for being too bureaucratic.
Rather they support a system of organic centralism, where by if theory is correctly understood and applied as a science it should organically lead all members of the party to the same outcome. Like a hive mind consensus or something.

They support the party form, but reject electoralism, believing the party should primarily educate people on the correct theory.

>Council Communism

This is also sometimes referred to as Councilism or Dutch-German Left Communism. Anton Pannekoek is perhaps the most famous Council Communist.
In many ways they sound a little similar to Anarchists, but don't say that to them or they'll get upset.

They of course adhere to all the internationalist and anti-commodity production points outlined above, but their unique selling point is they believe in "all power to the soviets".
They split away precisely *because* of Lenin deciding to change his mind on this point and centralising power in the USSR. Then he also wrote a book calling them "childish".

It's pretty self explanatory, but they believe the Dictatorship of the Proletariat should be organised via workers councils representing each group of people, region, industry, etc.
Rather than representative democracy, you take direct part in the councils. Members of local councils can then be elected to regional councils, those on regional councils to national councils, etc.

They are almost always against the party form. (The KAPD being a rare example of a Councilist party).
They claim political parties inevitably cause the interests of members to diverge from that of the proletariat, with that divergence worsening over time, leading to corruption, power grabbing, internal strife and splits, etc.

They tend to strongly support worker self-management and workplace democracy.

>The Situationists

As much an art movement as one of Marxism, focused largely on applying Marxist political theory to the social life. Guy Debord is the most well known figure.
They mostly held opinions in line with Councilist and "Libertarian Marxist" thinkers. Artistically speaking they were heavily influenced by Dadaism and Surrealism.

They were the first to recognise and write on the notion of "the Spectacle" - capitalism increasingly dominates daily life via the social situations we experience second hand in media, which keeps us alienated from the world.
Capitalism keeps you dull and just entertained enough not to do anything by making you consume too much. Too much pointless irrelevant news, too much TV, too many adverts.
Consuming media is effectively second hand living. You're living someone else's experience, a fiction, and too much of that alienates you from the world. Capitalism is pushing consumption on you and wants you to do more of it.
The establishment always has some pointless liberal or apolitical crap to distract you from so you never consider class consciousness and churn them a profit even while you're not at work.

What should you do? Engage in the revolution of daily life.
Most people just accept whatever social reality life gave them without question. Most people accept the spectacle and engage with it.
How? Do things that disrupt monotony. Rather than engage in the spectacle, just take a long walk, go get lost, go walk around a neighbourhood you don't know and have no business being in.
Disrupt the spectacle. Graffiti shit that will make people think. When you see a corporate billboard or poster vandalise it with a message that'll, for a moment, pull people from the spectacle of consuming the advert and to think on something else.

>Communization

Emerged from failures of the primarily left communist inspired riots in Paris in May 1968, and from the subsequent critique of Bordigism, Council Communism and Situationism that followed.
There's three main currents:
>That of Gilles Dauve, which is Marxist, and claims communization theory has always been applicable throughout the capitalist age
>That of Theorie Communiste and Endnotes, also Marxist, and claims that communization has only recently become a possibility
>That of Tiqqun and the Invisible Committee, who are Anarchists

Not gonna lie half the theorists in the communization bubble write so densely that it's near impossible to parse. They like to jerk themselves off like that I suppose.
That said here's what I gather from it:

They essentially believe that there is no need for - nor is it really possible any longer - to have a worker's state with a transitionary period of socialism between capitalism and communism, and the proof is that all attempts so far have failed and ended in the development of state capitalism.
The solution? There needs to be a fundamental change in approach.
Which is that when revolution occurs, there must be very quickly - pretty much immediately - a jump from capitalism to communism.
The revolution must consist of immediate communizing measures implemented as it is all unfolding.
Wage labour, commodity production, production for exchange value, the law of value, and so on, needs to be ended as the revolution take place.
The capitalist social relations of private property, the class structure, money, and the state, and markets be abolished and dismantled on sight and immediate swapped for communist relations.
No transition periods for anything.

Furthermore they stress that the "worker's movement" and trade unions are broadly captured and work with capitalist, bourgeois institutions. The same as the criticism of trade unions the other left communists have.
They therefore stress heavily the notion of the self-abolition of the proletariat. Because you can't have a classless society if you have a proletariat. Both the capitalist class and proletariat - both poles of the class system - must be dissolved.
Marx also spoke on this. Stating that a class "can emancipate itself only by abolishing itself as a class and all classes.", and also "when the proletariat is victorious, it by no means becomes the absolute side of society, for it is victorious only by abolishing itself and its opposite".
This means abolishing the conditions that cause them to exist as a class - ie the capitalist social relations and economic system.

They're critical of formal organisations and largely supportive of insurrectionary activity, having supposedly been responsible for several acts of sabotage and terrorism in Europe, perhaps most notably in 2008, 9 alleged Anarchist Communizers with alleged links to the Invisible Committee allegedly sabotaged various railways across France in what the French government called an act of "ultra-left terrorism".

>>2892513
>They are also largely considered pretty fucking autistic, shut-ins, people who read too much and don't get enough fresh air.
They don't even lift.

>>2892513

thanks for the long post warning, my patience is very low and my time is extremely valuable, who knows what would have happened to me if i had actually read all of that.

>>2892513
To me leftcom is somebody who is addicted to porn, malding and has a deep seated urge to make it everyone elses problem.

>>2890255
Bordigists =/= Left Communists

>>2891917
>Le state capitalism
<The state capitalism, which is one of the principal aspects of the New Economic Policy, is, under Soviet power, a form of capitalism that is deliberately permitted and restricted by the working class. Our state capitalism differs essentially from the state capitalism in countries that have bourgeois governments in that the state with us is represented not by the bourgeoisie, but by the proletariat, who has succeeded in winning the full confidence of the peasantry.

<For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly


<It is impossible to stand still in history in general, and in war-time in particular. We must either advance or retreat. It is impossible in twentieth-century Russia, which has won a republic and democracy in a revolutionary way, to go forward without advancing towards socialism, without taking steps towards it (steps conditioned and determined by the level of technology and culture: large-scale machine production cannot be “introduced” in peasant agriculture nor abolished in the sugar industry


>If all ML states eventually slide back into capitalism, after 110 years of attempts, then maybe think why that is hmm?

If no non-ML states emerge to even be able slide back into capitalism, after all of time, then maybe think why that is hmm?

>Still coping about SOIC

Read on the final victory of socialism in the ussr

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>>2891917
>The comparison sounds like a paradox. Who does not know that Europe is advanced and Asia backward? But the words taken for this title contain a bitter truth.

>In civilised and advanced Europe, with its highly developed machine industry, its rich, multiform culture and its constitutions, a point in history has been reached when the commanding bourgeoisie, fearing the growth and increasing strength of the proletariat, comes out in support of every thing backward, moribund and medieval. The bourgeoisie is hying out its last days, and is joining with all obsolete and obsolescent forces in an attempt to preserve tottering wage-slavery.


>Advanced Europe is commanded by a bourgeoisie which supports everything that is backward. The Europe of our day is advanced not thanks to, but in spite of, the bourgeoisie, for it is only the proletariat that is adding to the million-strong army of fighters for a better future. It alone preserves and spreads implacable enmity towards backwardness, savagery, privilege, slavery and the humiliation of man by man.


>In “advanced” Europe, the sole advanced class is the proletariat. As for the living bourgeoisie, it is prepared to go to any length of savagery, brutality and crime in order to uphold dying capitalist slavery.


>And a more striking example of this decay of the entire European bourgeoisie can scarcely be cited than the support it is lending to reaction in Asia in furtherance of the selfish aims of the financial manipulators and capitalist swindlers.


>Everywhere in Asia a mighty democratic movement is growing, spreading and gaining in strength. The bourgeoisie there is as yet siding with the people against reaction. Hundreds of millions of people are awakening to life, light and freedom. What delight this world movement is arousing in the hearts of all class-conscious workers, who know that the path to collectivism lies through democracy! What sympathy for young Asia imbues all honest democrats!


>And “advanced” Europe? It is plundering China and helping the foes of democracy, the foes of freedom in China!

>>2892628
What a stupid contribution.
Like what level of braindamage is this?
Do you think Lenin was alive to comment on socialist China?
Do you think Lenin was a supporter of "democracy" in the sense spoken here within the context of a DotP?
Do you think the KMT (the democratic-bourgeois progressive force of which he spoke here) were superior and ought to have won vs the CPC due to this stale contextually superseded statement?
Also reminder, since you don't read or educate yourself before contributing: Bordiga and the ICP(s) consider the PRC the most progressive development after WWII.
What was that? Oh that was your glass jaw fracturing like a wine glass as it dropped to the floor? Never too late to stop being a passé meme, mate (a 2019 ML).

>>2892635
Lenin would have continued the NEP for 100 years

File: 1786785068897-1.png (55.18 KB, 568x714, 1778555640779.png)

too much reddit use

>>2891526
>People outside of the imperial core actually understand this shit.
wich is why they are MLs

>>2892653
It's true, I've never seen a leftcom who, upon some examination, was not an israel supporter.

One even got mad on here and linked a bunch of articles from the ICP that were supposed to prove the opposite. They were all "we must condemn hamas and iranian imperialism" type shit lol

>>2891526
>Most of the regimes revisionist MLs lionize as brave fighters against imperialism torture and kill your ass if you're a communist.
Only Iran comes to mind where some communist parties are outlawed, but other that, this is pure bullshit and projection. Most of those "regimes" you are probably talking about are in some sort of united/popular front with communists or are at least agnostic to them.

Love how this is a Reaganite Cold War talking point as well "those communists will use you effiminate gay leftoids, and then kill you as useful idiots!"

Meanwhile you get tortured and killed in states like Ukraine or South Korea when you are a communist, no matter the flavor.

>>2892670
They don't even need to be Israel-supporters and shit, it's complete radical opposition real-existing attempt of changing the existing order of things, at least Trots call ML states degenerate workers states and deem them worth defending against imperialism.

>real-existing attempt of changing the existing order of things
<look inside
>its nationalism, peaceful coexistence and trademaxxing

>They recognise the economic transition to the abolition of commodity production and the abolition of production for exchange value as of paramount importance within establishing socialism, and the transition to production for use value as a step that should be completed relatively quickly, beginning more or less immediately after revolution and being completed in a matter of years. The count the failure to achieve this (along with SIOC) as the key reasons for the failure of previous "socialist" states.

Would they consider that commodity production should be abolished even when it may put the socialist state in question in a considerable strategic disadvantage vs capitalist imperialists states? How do they think a socialist state without commodities should do international commerce with non socialist countries? It seems very utopian to me in a real context where there is an international cold war between socialist and capitalist states

>>2892804
No the revolution needs to be international.

>>2892804
You don’t allow cold war in the first place, you immediately go hot and overwhelm the enemy with too many attacks from every direction at once

>>2892696
>at least trots engage in retarded idealism like me so it doesnt hurt my fee fees so much!
kek

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Comrade Elon Musk will abolish commodity production while leftoids will continue to defend Lassalleanism

>>2892814
>>2892812
What? They can't be like that, it's impossible

>>2892817
Alexandre Kojève described Henry Ford as "the one great authentic Marxist of the twentieth century". It is Elon Musk in the 21st century.

>>2892900
Elon Musk ain't shit. The real shit is happening in China my dude. And kojeve is a pseud

>>2892816
You don't know what idealism is.

>>2892930
no he wasnt he was a stalinist

>>2890407
>he is racist because he called people out on being LARPers
I think you have brain problems

>>2893051
Western "marxists" should sit their asses down and Listen and Learn from the third world

>>2892904
>the guy who can't build rockets that don't explode and named his incompetent bullshit pork-barrel government agency after a 2015 meme is somehow comparable to henry ford

>>2893052
>just copy/paste tactics from different material conditions. It's the magic bullet for revolution!

Come the fuck on. Don't be naive.

It's called critical thinking, sorry your thirdie world nationalism stops you from engaging in it.

>>2891387
I have to work two jobs because the wife and I are moving to another apartment

notice how leftcomGODS didnt mass report this thread like stalinsissies did to the one about their surrogate daddy figure

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>>2891752
>>2891743
>>2891740
As someone who recently visited the pleroma, you offend me with how little you know about gnosticism, hermeticism or even Marxism-Leninism. I am truly shooketh.
>>2891837
You read someone attempting to greenpill, but falling short.
>>2891861
You see you are logical, but in the minds of the purist bordigafags, if your communism is not 100% idealist orthodoxy, then you are not a real communist and you better give up because that Hayekian voice in their heads is constantly nagging them with "nut reel gommunizm". Like this bordigafag over here:
>>2891917
Can you please show me what an economy without commodity production will look like?

>>2894579
The Stalin thread was full of bad faith arguments whereas here, everyone is respectful at least. You will never be a GOD bordigafag.

>>2894768
nah, you are just bitchmade, thats why you hide behind jannies, just like shitalin did behind beria

>>2895389
Never hid behind jannies.
Bordigafag, tell me your ideology. I want to learn about your ideology. tell it to me.

>>2892115
the position this quote refers to was deprecated by the advent of the internet


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