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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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No, seriously. What causes someone to become a left communist? Too much reading and not enough living in the real world? Just trying to find a leftist ideology that excuses total inaction?

Ideology on the internet is a costume you put on for trolling and nothing else, you become a leftcom because you aren’t laughing at xi jinping SWCC memes anymore and they don’t make anyone mad.

>What causes someone to become a left communist?
autism score above average

>>2890255
>No, seriously. What causes someone to become a left communist?
Reading Marxist theory + the belief that we should actually put said theory into practice, instead LARPing as a Soviet/Mao era revolutionary online while in reality just doing a hecking wholesome vote once every few years for your local social democrat candidate.

I'm not claiming many leftcoms can't be insufferable individuals but I think that holds true for chronically online people of all kinds of political positions outside of the Overton Window, you can't deny there's certain types of Anarchists, MLs, etc who can be just as autistic and insufferable, surely?

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>>2890258
>Ideology on the internet is a costume you put on for trolling and nothing else, you become a leftcom because you aren’t laughing at xi jinping SWCC memes anymore and they don’t make anyone mad.
this. in fact any time anyone on here claims to be [X] I assume they secretly hate [X] and are pretending to be [X] in the most obnoxious way possible to make [X] look bad. Case in point: pic related.

There are no "leftcoms," only spergy loser "Bordigist" autists and sexy intelligent councilcom/communizer chads.

>>2890292
TRVKELEAR BOMB! TOTAL TRUTHNUKE ARMAGEDDON!!!

>too mich reading
I'd believe this if leftcoms didn't make basic errors like commodities=capitalism or abolish=negate, etc.

>>2890306
Commodity production - that is production for exchange value - is LITERALLY the capitalist mode of production, as outlined by Marx in the very opening sentences of Capital.
Amazing how anyone who doesn't understand this outs themselves as never having read core theory - yet they keep doing it, and believe themselves to be Marxists all the same!

>>2890316
Live reading comprehension test:
Does this passage imply that the existence of commodity production means the economy is capitalist?

>>2890326
>Does this passage imply that the existence of commodity production means the economy is capitalist?
If you want to be autistic then sure, let's go there. I'll explain it.
It's not the existence of commodity production alone that signifies a capitalist economy. I never stated that.
Commodities predate capitalism, people produced them in feudal times as serfs and peasants selling their own homemade goods at village markets etc, rather than exchanging goods for use value.
And of course there's much more to capitalism that commodities alone.

But as Marx says, commodity production is the *distinctive* form of production under capitalism.
Why is that? Because under capitalism, as Marx says, commodity production is the *dominant* form of production.
Any system where commodity production is the dominant form of production is capitalist, which is different to saying all commodities are capitalist.
Commodities are indicative of capitalism but that doesn't mean non-capitalist commodities can't exist.

However that doesn't allow for an economy based predominantly on commodity production to be socialist - neither the USSR nor modern day China can be said to utilise a socialist mode of production.
Why? Because as explained above, any economy where commodity production is the dominant mode of production is a capitalist economy.
That is what Marx is saying in the images you posted.

Rather than having to explain all this time and time again it's easier just to state that "commodity production is capitalist production" or something along those lines because it is short and snappy, gets the left communist arguement across, and is correct for the overwhelming part, and for all cases that matter in the modern world, even if not strictly accurate from a pedantic/autistic POV.
Where are the non-capitalist economies that utilise commodity production?
You're either talking about pre-capitalist ie. feudal production, or else some non-existent entirely hypothetical form of "market socialism" where commodity production makes up a minority part of the economy in what is still a predominantly for use value based system.

Hope that answers your question.

Now, is it your position that we shouldn't move beyond commodity production (what is for all intents and purposes capitalist production), and into production for use value (ie socialist production)?
Why? How do you justify that position as a Marxist? What is your point in trying to defend economic models based on commodity exchange?


>>2890362
>quotemining MLoid is a bad faith coward
tale as old as time

>>2890373
I mean you failed the literacy test, marx clearly says *two* distinctive features of capitalism, it's the first sentence in the image.
Second, you're making a basic logical error in the form of "birds have wings, therefore all winged creatures are birds"
Third, you're arguing backwards from a conclusion. Instead of an immanent critique of the soviet economy, you start from "ussr wasn't socialist" therefore "commodity production = capitalism" and what marx said doesn't "really matter"

So you're the falsifier and should kill yourself

File: 1786554385495-2.jpg (329.28 KB, 1080x1524, 20260403_130928.jpg)

picrel

>>2890362
I accept your concession.
>>2890397
Literally none of this is true and speaks to your own lack of reading comprehension.

>>2890400
I see, guess mattick was a racist
"We have nothing to learn from those brown subhumans, we have our own Exceptional Destiny"

>>2890397
you can keep aurafarming all you want, anyone thats not braindead can see you are not able to actually engage in the theorical discussion you opened via quotemining

>>2890405
Cope.
Reading comprehension test 2:
Since M&E didn't specify "abolish commodity production" and "abolish the value form" in their revolutionary programme, but instead some bullshit about banks, does that mean they were advocating for capitalism to be replaced with capitalism?

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>>2890409
since you seem to have trouble parsing text, and only respond to cropped text, here, I'll help you out

>>2890421
We already know from existing ML governance that keeping commodity production slowly introduces revisionism and destroys the party from within, no amount of purging or cultural revolution fixes it.

>>2890410
Marx and Engels didn’t live to see the 20th century, you have to deal with contemporary realities

>>2890450
Bourgeois subjectivity is reproduced well into the transitional period according to marx himself, so saying that ussr fell due to the economic relations reproducing bourgies is almost fatalistic: makes transition impossible due to mere fact of being "stamped with the birthmarks of the old society"

Rather, USSR fell because they *lost* the ongoing political struggle against inevitably reproducing bourgeois elements.

The failure was political: precisely too much preoccupation with economy and production, not enough class discipline

>>2890255
I have long wondered the same thing, the conclusion I've reached is that they are severely autistic

>>2890493
Then clearly the next revolutionary wave, if it is to have any hope at all, needs to make that transition so sudden and rapid that you’re basically a Vanguardist Anarchist.

>>2890259
it may sound pedantic or whatever but this is kind of true, I just dont see how a non-retarded leftist person would not naturally arrive to the same or similar conclusions leftcoms of the 20th century did after falling for socdem and nationalist psyops just a few too many times

Just cut the birthmarks out, it’s easy, you literally just need a knife and a flame to cauterize

>>2890255
>LeftGODs own my clitty

>>2890496
My proposal is more realistic: the party just has to lock tf in

Marxists describe the beast well but they don't explain how to fell it. In many ways it sounds like their solution is an outgrowth of the beast. No wonder some would prefer to tame it instead.

>>2890410
>>2890421
Putting it on record that you keep asking these condescending questions in an attempt to quote-mine leftcoms, probably so you can share selective screenshots on your MLoid/Dengist discord server/reddit sub, while you are also directly refusing to answer any questions asked of you.
Isn't that interesting? Why won't you answer any questions???

Anyway, you asked the question:
>Does this passage imply that the existence of commodity production means the economy is capitalist?
To which I explained how while it's not strictly the case, commodity production is in practice almost exclusively a feature of capitalism, and when Marx was writing, that the non-capitalist commodity production he was refering to was feudal markets and not a form of socialism, although you could argue hypothetical forms of socialism where commodity production plays a minority role could still technically meet Marx's definition.

That Marx stated the second characteristic of a capitalist economy is the motive of generating surplus value is not a point that was necessary to raise to explain the above.
Your functionally illiterate, zero reading comprehension, MLoid-Dengoid ass is trying to claim my failure to mention an additional point surplus to what was necessary to explain my answer means I've failed to jump through some imaginary ever-moving Dengoid goalposts of yours.
Well in regards to that, I simply do not care.
Where will you shift your little Dengoid goalposts too next?

And since you've brought the point up, it should be obvious that the generating of surplus value is in practice always the motive of commodity production for exchange value.
Given that Marx wrote that passage in 1863 it can't be expected he'd know what capitalism would look like in the 20th and 21st centuries. It's simply impossible.
Like another anon said, you aren't considering contemporary reality at all in your analysis but are looking at the text through a lense or mechanical materialsm, not dialectical materialism.

My questions for you:
Can you provide any examples of states which have an economy based on commodity production but without said production having the motive of generating surplus value?
If yes, then which states, and how so?
And if no, then will you admit that there has not yet been a state which adhered to a socialist mode of production?

>>2890509
You think you’re better than all the others that came before you and failed?

>>2890500
>Just cut the birthmarks out, it’s easy
there is a difference between struggling to cut them out and even accepting tactical retreats into capitalism like the NEP to saying "socialism is when you uphold and reinforce the birthmarks forever"
>>2890511
>image
kek

>>2890520
No concessions, no surrender, no “tactics” (weasel word for cowardice), struggle until and after death for the end of the status quo

>>2890255
It doesn't advocate inaction, it just sets dispels illusions about what are effective means to put your energy to or not. Just as any ML would laugh at reformism or socdem as actually a viable means to bring about communism although still offering critical support, we say the same thing about ML.

>>2890513
Ye. I've got cricial advantage: hindsight.

Do you think lenin was absolutely confident he'd win? He simply said yes to history.

>>2890493
>>2890496
Isn't this basically the idea behind communization theory? To communize all social, economic, and political relations as fast as possible - to immediately sweep out all elements of the capitalist mode of production, immediately swap to production for use value as soon as revolution starts, to start abolishing very notion of class (ie self-abolition of the proletariat) asap?
Although I think they tend to be against the idea of a vanguard/platform and are like the council communists in expecting the proletariat to just kinda rise up via direct action, if a party exists it's no higher in the hierarchy to anyone else and exists basically to publish theory, news, etc…

>>2890522
>struggle until and after death for the end of the status quo
what if you are in a thirdie shithole that can't export revolution and you would simply get crushed and millions of workers killed for nothing? I really dont see a viable alternative to NEPing it out for a while in this scenario

>>2890274
This is the correct stance to take.

>>2890526
Proles have to work for money or die. Under socialism they have to work for labor vouchers or die. Is that it?

No pussy

>>2890570
Get a nuke, it’s really that simple, the DPRK are economically prosperous now because of it

privilege. that's all it is. there's a reason why every communist revolutionary vanguard party in history has been composed of middle-class intellectuals and not actual laborers. the communist intellectuals are not really that different from the capitalist ruling class they despise, they have the same mindset where they see themselves as part of an elite minority of smart people who are above the common masses who aren't "properly educated" and aren't capable of "intelligent decisionmaking" like they are. they think that human intelligence is a rare discrete commodity like gold or silver that only certain special people have locked up inside their heads, instead of an immaterial network of cognitive relationships spread out across the entire spectra of all human activity regardless of social status or formal education. they're experiencing premature enlightenment like the narrator in fight club when he becomes enamored with his newfound detachment from his banal establishment lifestyle as a fun exciting escape from reality, completely missing the point and climbing even further up his own ass by thinking he's now part of a cool secret club of edgy badasses who are above it all and looking down and laughing at all the pathetic normies. they haven't actually let go and let themselves truly hit bottom, thrown out all of their longheld beliefs and values and attachments and experienced the pain of total ego death and started over from square one. to achieve true enlightenment you have to become nothing, you have to lose everything and become like the homeless street person who sleeps under a bridge and eats out of garbage cans, yet still manages to preserve his own sanity and not completely snap and end up dead or in prison or permanently insane. for the blue collar digger of the ditch this isn't such a tall order because they're just one step away from being the homeless bum, they've already experienced a life of hardship and suffering, many of them probably have lost everything and become homeless bums at one time or another. but it's not such an easy thing to do for the middle-class insurance adjuster who has never really known what it means to lose everything they ever had in life, not just their money and their possessions but everything, to completely hit bottom and be confronted by the ultimate truth of the world - that they know nothing and they have nothing and they are nothing and they are going to die. this is the kind of knowledge that can't be written down in a book for you to read or spoken into your ear by a teacher, it can only be learned from personal experience. this is why intelligence isn't like wealth, not something that fortunate privileged people acquire and share with the less fortunate masses. intelligence is more like air - everyone breathes it and nobody owns it and it moves around all the time and if you're in some small stuffy closed-off space for too long you will run out of fresh air and get dizzy and lightheaded, you have to get out of there and go somewhere else, even if that somewhere else is a place that you consider low and beneath you.

>>2890584
>the DPRK are economically prosperous now because of it
ok can they help realizing international revolution now or is line going up your end goal? they could at least liberate south korea

>>2890598
South Korea is running out of young people, all the DPRK has to do is wait.

>>2890601
>all the DPRK has to do is wait.
ok, so its two more weeks of 5D chess until the internationalism starts, thanks…

>>2890353
>>2890512
where are the subhumans that are always crying "muh leftkkkoms are all le sharty trollzz reeee!!" now? will they actually engage with this anon's effortposts and the questions formulated at the end? of course not

>>2890579
Don't think communizers support labour vouchers but I honestly don't know enough about their theory

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>>2890588
> to achieve true enlightenment you have to become nothing, you have to lose everything and become like the homeless street person who sleeps under a bridge and eats out of garbage cans, yet still manages to preserve his own sanity and not completely snap and end up dead or in prison or permanently insane.
literally me lol gutterpunx represent homey

I read Marx

how can the USSR be capitalist when
1) total employment meant no labor market
2) no labor market means no labor power as commodity
3) no labor power as commodity means no generalized commodity production
4) no generalized commodity production means no capitalism
can anyone explain?

>>2890684
>total employment meant no labor market
They’re back everyone

>>2890274
>>2890571
This is cope for vast majority of posters. Yes, there are trolls. Yes, there are even glowies using leftcom rhetoric.

But leftcoms routinely spring up in response to Western decline. Like clockwork. Glowies aren't smart or well-read enough to engineer this themselves.

Sure, leftcoms read Marx, but they see what they want to see. And what they don't want to see is that the "real" movement is in complete opposition to the "ideologically pure" movement. This clashes with their Christian upbringing. The unwashed masses outside the West rising up against it are not ideologically pure enough to justify their resistance, so leftcoms oppose it. Worse still, some of them are openly reactionary, making alliances of convenience.

That's why leftcoms keep bringing up the example of Hitler against the British Empire. The moral character of this argument, and Leftcoms themselves, is obvious. They are more concerned about proles than thou. More ideologically pure than thou. More communister than thou.

>>2890710
>moral character

>>2890712
Moralist*

>>2890713
Copioid addict, you just rebranded the “communists are acktually religionoids” from the cuckservatives. Explain why that is.

tankiddie flag anon is such a coward he hasnt even tried to defend his beloved multipolar porky in the board of peace thread, he is afraid of even clicking on it lmao

>>2890719
Leftcoms do treat Marxism as a religion, yes. I don't.

>>2890735
You may not appreciate facts and logic, but my views are objectively sound and truthful. Also, you are wrong.

>>2890735
everyone who has interacted with you here knows you are literally too dumb to understand even the manifesto bro stop the larp lol, be honest with yourself and admit you are just a nationalist, come out of the closet already, you will feel better

>>2890739
Which nation?

>>2890745
The one with a capitalist MoP

>>2890769
>Umm, I don't know
>you just ARE!
>because I SAID SO!
Yeah, that's what I thought.

>>2890690
address the point faggot. notice i didn't say the USSR was socialist, but that it wasn't capitalist
the smug left com is literally the most cancerous archetype

leftcoms are woke 1 if you know what i mean

>>2890988
No.
Log off and read some, my "historical materialist" bud.

>>2890526
No, since communization theory is a bunch of academicist bloggers with a programmatic opposition to organization who think writing enough paragraphs of eschatology will make everything happen on its own (this has nothing to do with the hismat of classical Marxism, revolutionary science as demonstrated by October, etc.) and basically you guys are fucking cowards.
ICP.

>>2890526
>to immediately sweep out all elements of the capitalist mode of production, immediately swap to production for use value as soon as revolution starts, to start abolishing very notion of class (ie self-abolition of the proletariat) asap?
Like the most utopian of ancoms.
>Although I think they tend to be against the idea of a vanguard/platform and are like the council communists in expecting the proletariat to just kinda rise up via direct action
Nope, they are worse than even infantile anarcho-councilists in that at least the ancouncs still comprehended the material reality of a mechanism being necessary (see GIC) between capitalist imperialism and communism.
>if a party exists it's no higher in the hierarchy to anyone else and exists basically to publish theory, news, etc…
Wow false consciousness and bourgeois dictatorship is finished, the communist party as faint, barely indistinguishable background noise has appeared

>>2890579
We can also die of preventable diseases, ecosystem collapse and nuclear fallout when the middle classes have misled the proletarian vanguard enough again into vague non-scientific bullshit some more. Then we'll have some millions of years before a mammalian branch has another chance at language and interplanetary civilization again, you trog fuck.

>>2890353
>However that doesn't allow for an economy based predominantly on commodity production to be socialist
You literally cannot abolish commodity production until you've reached a relative degree of abundance. Commodity production is simply a fact of nature that needs to exist if you want to coordinate economies of scale. This is simply a case of autistically thinking that whatever Marx said must be True, and upholding it as a sanctimonious dogma.
Secundly, you conveniently restricted your definition of capitalism to "commodity production as the dominant system" when it's explicitly written that for-profit production is the other determining trait of the commodity production which takes place under capitalism. This makes a lot more sense than simply "commodity production = capitalism", because Marx and Engels themselves still advocated for a system of labour-vouchers, which implies that work would and goods would exchanged by a medium. A.k.a production would not be for direct usage, but to acquire other items, it'd be production for exchange.

>What is your point in trying to defend economic models based on commodity exchange?

Nobody is denying that the progressive abolition of commodity-production should be put in place as the economy gradually moves towards abundance, or some other state in which for-exchange production isn't required. That said, it's completely silly to expect developing countries to radically abolish commodity production. It's simply an unfeasible criteria to judge production in our current state

>>2890512
>have an economy based on commodity production but without said production having the motive of generating surplus value
The entire eastern block ? There was no notion of "surplus value" because prices were administratively set and didn't respond much to demand in practice. The State did take a cut to fund its projects but it was quite far from what the capitalist takes nowadays.

mexican leftcum status? i miss him

>>2890710
Most of the regimes revisionist MLs lionize as brave fighters against imperialism torture and kill your ass if you're a communist. It's an online phenomenon and a sect phenomenon. Shit gets so ridiculous you can find articles from 2014-2015 made by some British Trots lending their "critical support" to ISIS because they were fighting the US. The framework of imperialism is reprocical and shared between the capitalist classes and states of nearly the entire globe even if they have a different place in the capitalist hierarchy. Maoists actually understand this shit. Leftcoms actually understand this shit. Non-liberal socialist parties actually understand this shit. People outside of the imperial core actually understand this shit.

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>>2891526
>rebranded "why do LGBT support Palestine don't they know?" non-argument
>brining up that one article (singular) we clowned on, because we know that ISIS is an American proxy
>accidentally claps KKE, which claims to be ML (it's not), by attributing their revisionist "theory" of everything is imperialism to every irrelevant/glowie tendency
Lmao. Hey, post again that list of literal who "communist" parties that oppose Russian invasion of Ukraine.

>>2891585
You speak in memes and this is not even an argument about any of the statements in my post. ACP xitter bubble might be more your speed, you could chirp with fellow retards with sun emotes and gorillas in bio.

Organic Centralism is the worst idea ever devised and could only come from an organisation completely alien to practical work.

>>2891590
You get the response you fucking deserve, glowuighur.

>>2891603
Why would you oppose the only party form resistant to opportunism, opportunist?

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>left communism
They sure did.

>>2890353
>Any system where commodity production is the dominant form of production is capitalist, which is different to saying all commodities are capitalist.
Commodities are indicative of capitalism but that doesn't mean non-capitalist commodities can't exist.
Dude, you basically admitted you were wrong. The USSR didn't have generalized commodity production, do you know what this means? Labor power wasn't a commodity, which means there was a surplus product but no surplus value that directed or steered the economy like in capitalism where capital acts an autonomous subject.

It's also possible to have different modes of production at the same time, lo and behold. Feudalist MoP and capitalist MoP existed next to each other for centuries, but the feudal one was in the last instance dominant, because why? Class you half-wit, a factor leftcoms love to dismiss. Nobility and the monarchs were in power and controlled money, tariffs and land.

Lenin assessed that five modes of production existed during the NEP:
>socialism
>state-capitalism
>peasant mode of production
>artisans and petty-bourgeois mode of production
>private capitalist mode of production

So the USSR was a society that had:
>no generalized commodity production (land, means of production, labor power and natural resources were all decommodified)
>no bourgeoisie
>no surplus value production (but a surplus product production)
>no MCM' cycle internally, foreign trade was conducted with a reserve currency in a CMC' cycle
But you are still telling me, despite all this, and even though Marx himself saying that commodity production isn't capitalism when it's not generalized, this was still capitalism? At least Trots are saying it was not capitalism but Stalin was a meanie unless they are cliffites.

>>2891625
>moral solidarity

>>2891628
Guess who’s back. Back again.

>>2891628
It also only had very limited forms of market distribution and private property. These were wholly marginalized and subordinate to economic planning and common ownership. Frankly apart from the continued use of circulating currency in lieu of labour vouchers, I struggle to see any difference between the USSR and the lower stage of socialism described by Marx in Critique of the Gotha Program.

>>2891632
>and the lower stage of socialism described by Marx in Critique of the Gotha Program.
That’s Lenin, not Marx.

https://shop.leftypol.org
is this socialist commodity production?

has it ever been scientifically explained why bordiga became a frog as he grew old?

monopsony

>>2891634
No it isn't. Lenin just started distinguishing between socialism and communism by identifying socialism with the lower stage and communism with the higher stage. The distinction between lower and higher stages itself comes from Marx, but he used the terms socialism and communism interchangeably for both.

>>2891652
>No it isn't
Source it
>Lenin just started distinguishing between socialism and communism
Engels was the one to do that first, only after fraudulent actors started using the label socialism for their revisionist projects. And even then, he labels said types of socialism as “so-called socialism”.

>>2891654
<What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges…
<In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

Here Marx clearly distinguishes between two phases in the development of communist society, one still bearing many features of capitalism and one in which these have fallen away. I'd also argue that this distinction follows logically from the distinction between the dictatorship of the proletariat and a communist society in which the state has withered away. The fact that there is a transition from a state to statelessness pretty clearly indicates less and more developed phases of socialist construction.

>>2891660
>Here Marx clearly distinguishes between two phases in the development of communist society
Not communism/socialism. Communist society. During the dictatorship of the proletariat.
>The fact that there is a transition from a state to statelessness pretty clearly indicates less and more developed phases of socialist construction.
Developed stages of socialist society. Not mode of production. During the transition state.

>>2891664
>Not communism/socialism
Okay, I just said that Marx distinguished between higher and lower phases of communism, not that he assigned the terms communism and socialism to describe these. The USSR for the most part corresponded to his description of the lower stage.

>>2891665
>I just said that Marx distinguished between higher and lower phases of communism
I know.
>not that he assigned the terms communism and socialism to describe these.
Let me clarify myself: neither are correct. I am not picking either or, I am making sure corners are covered.

>>2890512
What does functionally illiterate mean?

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>>2891024
>ICP
Orgcuck?

>>2890353
>>2890512
"Marx's criteria for what makes an economy capitalist is different from yours"
You:
>ackschually it doesn't matter what marx said because socialism has never existed, so my criteria, "for the overwhelming part", " in practice", are correct as well,
You might as well say that the distinguishing feature of capitalism is the existence of glasses. No socialism has ever existed so glasses=capitalism holds.

Where does this meme of leftcoms being smart or well read come from anyway? It seems to me they are "for the overwhelming part", " in practice", totally retarded

>I'm a Marxist but I disagree with Marx on everything but I'm still gonna keep calling myself a Marxist.

Daily reminder you leftists exist because the bourgeoisie considers you (correctly) extremely useful in confusing, distorting and neutering communism. Why do you think the ruling class uses its own tax money to spread leftism in academia - the literal temples of bourgeois thought? Why do you think the capitalist class allows the free spread of leftist ideas in the media, and even own some of the leftist outlets?

File: 1786687172842-5.png (1.49 MB, 1024x1024, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2890255
Leftcoms are like the Gnostic Christians of Communism: Smarter, more well-read, more esoteric, but ultimately doomed to never be the mainstream, because they are addicted to theory over action. Marxism Leninism is the mainline Pauline Christianity: it has mass appeal.

>>2891740
>gnostic christians
<smarter
gnostic christians were the schizzo theosophists of their era alongisde hermetist and other such crap

>>2891740
>>2891743
Good metaphor, both leftcoms and gnostic, hermetists and crap are abstract idealists who project their pre-existing self-conception of "bearers of secret knowledge" onto an explicitly exoteric text, turning it esoteric.

>>2891738
What do you think makes you more unpopular in Western academia, a smug leftcom who writes books like "Marx against Moscow" or a literal Stalinist?! Fucking resorting to conspiracy theories when your tendency is a joke

All leftcom parties are a joke and are rightfully mocked as orgcucks

>>2891770
Linguistic quality: 2000s chatbot; reply discarded

>>2890588
> there's a reason why every communist revolutionary vanguard party in history has been composed of middle-class intellectuals and not actual laborers
This is simply not true. Most parties, but particularly the RSDLP were composed of a broad strata of social classes, including both middle class intellectuals as well as lower class laborers. While the leadership of these parties was generally skewed to the higher educated and somewhat of a higher social class than the rank and file, that is just a byproduct of effective organization. You're going to utilize people's talents and experience according to their effectiveness. It has very little to do with some sort of psychological reading of how these people "see themselves"


They are correct technically as "left-communism" is litteraly just Leninism. But they seems more animated by contrarianism than rigor which make them have disastrous takes and nihilistic geopol positions.

>>2891740
What the fuck did I just read

>>2891834
>nihilistic geopol positions.
we just reject geopol as the bourgeois pseudoscience it is, just like real MLs did in the past, unlike the dengoid multipolaroids that larp as MLs here

this is the only type of "left unity" thats not full blown hitler-tier reactionary trash btw

>>2891787
Okay unc

Is ICP the class party?

>>2891843
Deng ensured the Communist Party remained in control of China after his death.
Hoxha ensured that the Communist Party completely fucking shit the bed and abandoned Marxism the first chance it received.
And yet Hoxhaists really try to pretend that they're more "pure" or a higher form of Marxist when their own fucking figurehead couldn't even guarantee continuity of the DOTP post-death.

>>2891861
go back to r/neolib where you belong you disgusting dengbot

In China and in Vietnam today, there are:
>Stock exchanges
>Billionaire CEOs
>Legal protections for private property
>Private industries working to generate surplus value for state endorsed capitalists
>Economies based on commodity production by wage labourers to generate surplus value
>No concrete plans to transition to production for use value - just extremely vague promises of eventual transition beginning in a distant future
>Celebrations of state approved capitalists as "pioneers on the economic front"
This is capitalism however you look at it.
I don't think any of that is really debatable, it's clear and open fact, these are state capitalist economies which today can barely bothered to produce any copium excuses about their capitalist economics.

So then why do MLoids feel the need, rather than addressing these contradictions between Marxist theory and real world economic policy in supposedly socialist states, to instead argue with LeftComs online and try to look for ways to interpret Marx's writings where by they can justify this state of affairs?
You spend your time trying to argue semantics and do theoretical gymnastics as to how Marx's definitions of the attributes of a capitalist economics can be twisted to exempt commodity production in China and the USSR, to explain how wage labour to generate surplus value in China, Vietnam, and the USSR somehow can somehow be socialist.
It's bizarre and reeks of a defense of capitalism with a red flag, which is what it is.

ML-ism and Dengism are right deviations that, while initially improving conditions for their respective countries, have clearly abandoned any attempt at building socialism, devolving into state capitalism with social democratic qualities.
If all ML states eventually slide back into capitalism, after 110 years of attempts, then maybe think why that is hmm?

Not even going to go into how SIOC is an entirely un-Marxist revision invented by Stalin one day just because, or how not giving all power to the soviets but instead centralising power was a major mistake.

>>2891903
It's funny because most Maoists form the 70s are neolibs today

>>2891919
just like hoxha predicted

>>2891917
you convinced me. spamming twenty threads about how china is capitalist will bring communism by the tenday.

>>2891917
>So then why do MLoids feel the need, rather than addressing these contradictions between Marxist theory and real world economic policy in supposedly socialist states, to instead argue with LeftComs online and try to look for ways to interpret Marx's writings where by they can justify this state of affairs?
>It's bizarre and reeks of a defense of capitalism with a red flag
I think its just an emotional thing, a way to cope with the lack of the workers movement in their own countries
>>2891934
>catty, spiteful non-response
case in point

>>2891934
And what of spamming twenty threads seething about left communists?

>>2891903
China isn't neoliberal. Y'all love to lie about China it's so tiresome.

>>2891988
China opening up was literally the single biggest instance of scabbing in history, they destroyed the international proletariat for their own selfish desires when it wasn’t necessary

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>China isn't neoliberal. Y'all love to lie about China it's so tiresome.

>>2891992
No they were right to. Eastern socialist states should not languish in poverty. Western states had all the time in the world to launch a revolution but they were bought off with keynesian reforms. You are essentially demanding that a billion Chinese continue to sit in poverty because your wages were being pushed up through them not interacting at all with the global economy, so you could continue receiving imperialist bribes as your country continued to blow up others. You are no different from Bernie Sanders and are not a communist.
Also China's reform and opening up granted the Communist Party legitimacy and ensured that when the Tiananmen color revolution was attempted they could crush it cleanly without falling into a civil war. If they had done as you wished and continued to remain isolated then in all likelyhood there would have been Chinese perestroika and glasnost.

>>2892022
Nobody is a communist and there is no united working class interest if this is the case

>>2892022
>You are no different from Bernie Sanders
hilarious coming from a dengoid

>>2892026
Of course there is united working class interest and it is China that is pushing the class struggle forward. I find it hilarious some retard is accusing China of scabbing on a mass scale when that's actually America's strategy by destroying countries with the IMF and World Bank or through military intervention. Scabs only exist due to desperation and a willingness to do anything in exchange for breadcrumbs. America constantly blowing up countries and supporting criminal networks is increasing the global reserve pool of labor worldwide, but I'm supposed to believe it's China that's scabbing when the Chinese are attempting to pull up all the lagging nations with trade and development in order to accelerate the class struggle. If China's strategy succeeds the western left will also benefit. If every country gets richer then the Western multinationals will no longer be able to force countries to play arbitrage against each other. But do the so called "leftcoms" understand this? No because all of them are retarded and don't study anything.

>>2891917
>So then why do MLoids feel the need, rather than addressing these contradictions between Marxist theory and real world economic policy in supposedly socialist states
The debate about China and Vietnam isn't (necessarily) about whether they currently have socialist economies, its about whether they are revolutionary states engaged in some form of socialist construction.
>to instead argue with LeftComs online and try to look for ways to interpret Marx's writings where by they can justify this state of affairs?
Aside from the standard internet debate addiction that everybody on this website is guilty of, there's the practical consideration of not wanting to manufacture consent for US aggression against China. This would be the obligation of every Western socialist regardless of whether they considered China to be a revolutionary, progressive, or socialist state. Revolutionary defeatism would be a paramount practical consideration in the context of Sino-American conflict.

>>2892079
>there's the practical consideration of not wanting to manufacture consent for US aggression against China
just say no war but class war, there, its that simple, no need to pretend capitalism is socialism

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>>2892106
>just say no war but class war
That needs to be paired with constant agitation against US imperialism and exposure of the real causes and interests behind the conflict. That's not a goal that's helped by writing extensive polemics about why China is bad. I'd agree that it's not a big deal when it comes to bickering on leftypol, but this shouldn't be an outward facing message directed at workers in the West. For them the question of whether China is socialist is pretty much irrelevant.

>>2892115
>That's not a goal that's helped by writing extensive polemics about why China is bad.
pointing out the capitalist mode of production exists in China is not a moral judgement and I don't see how lying about its helpful in any way
if anything pretending China is communist might help manufacture consent more as long as the majority of the population thinks commies are le bad

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>>2892126
I can't believe that retard logo is getting proven right every day

the DSA will "finally win", USA will get thousand year nazicrat-soccdem reich and imperial plunder will be justified by "progressive world fighting against reactionary nationalist regimes"

>>2892132
Good, marx justified and came in his pants when he saw the US stealing land from Mexico and the indigenous, why wouldn’t he cheer for the enslavement of the lazy Chinese?

>>2892132
I heard DSA was getting close with the CCP, which makes sense since their definitions of socialism are very similar (when the goverment does stuff), so I think they will get along fine if they finally get their new FDR, just how the original did with the USSR

>>2890316
Why the fuck is it called capitalism and not commoditism then you sucker?

>>2892211
There are non capitalist commodities but communism means no commodities period, at all.

>>2890512
So if in a given territory every feudal lord produces wool, grain, and other stuff as commodities destined for market sale he automatically is a capitalist, even though he is employing serf labour, even though the state system of right has the typical feudal provincial, estamental, propery-right and fiscal exceptionalities, even though the money he is earning will be spent in luxury commodities and not reinvested in technology and to expand the firm, even though… And i could go on forever. I didn't know what a leftcom was until I browsed this site, but if they are all like yourself, it seems they are commodity-essentialist Marxists, putting the whole weight of the concept of capitalism in a single element while putting everything else as secondary.

>>2892212
Low commodity production exists under communism. Yes, you will still have gift baskets and shit.

>>2892234
No you won’t, not unless you put in an order before the economic plan for the year is set

>>2892035
>and it is China that is pushing the class struggle forward
The only China is pushing forward are profits and nationalism
>I find it hilarious some retard is accusing China of scabbing on a mass scale when that's actually America's strategy by destroying countries with the IMF and World Bank or through military intervention
That’s not what scabbing means
>If China's strategy succeeds the western left will also benefit
If China’s strategy succeeds, we’re all dead. The only longterm plan China has is on how to win the great game of capitalism without overextension. Everything else is secondary.

>>2892236
>No you won’t
Yes, we will. You are not getting rid of simple favors and gifts just because you feel like it.
>not unless you put in an order before the economic plan for the year is set
Order to whom? Exactly.

>>2892248
To the production office, it’s for use

>>2892253
A production office (not bureaucratic ran by the way) would not be utilized for gift pies unless they were being mass produced.

Socialism is impossible because under any hypothetical economy me and my friend could conspire to produce commodities for exchange with each other

>>2892262
wrong, ze party already chipped your brain so it will stop you before you even talk to your friend

>>2892222
>So if in a given territory every feudal lord produces wool, grain, and other stuff as commodities destined for market sale he automatically is a capitalist, even though he is employing serf labour, even though the state system of right has the typical feudal provincial, estamental, propery-right and fiscal exceptionalities, even though the money he is earning will be spent in luxury commodities and not reinvested in technology and to expand the firm, even though…
Serfdom / feudalism is distinct and separate to capitalism. Capitalism was a historically progressive force when it emerged out of feudalism, for that time period.
As I explained already in the post you replied to - when Marx referenced that there are non-capitalist economies with commodity production he was explicitly making reference to systems of serfdom and feudalism.
There's plenty that's been written on the beginnings of capitalism and what makes it different from feudalism.

>>2892363
How does that the debunk the notion that commodity production can exist in a marginal form under lower stage socialism or at least the DotP? If anything it reinforces the notion that capitalism is defined by generalized commodity production.

WARNING: LONG POST ALERT !!!!!!

>>2892222
>I didn't know what a leftcom was until I browsed this site

Left Communism simply refers to any communist position that can be considered to the left of Marxism-Leninism, excluding Anarchism.
That said there are some differences and similarities between the most common types of left communist. I'll try to explain the essential elements:

>Things basically all Left Communists share in common:

They're revolutionary communists, which means they want a stateless, classless, moneyless society, without private property, achieved via a proletarian revolution.

They are against parliamentarianism, electoralism and engagement in bourgeois democratic institutions broadly - which they derogatively refer to as Kautskyism.
They are against reformism, social democracy, and gradual improvements in worker's rights via making deals and compromise with the liberal bourgeois state - which they derogatively refer to as Lassalleanism.

They're proletarian internationalists - they consider socialism in one country ("SIOC") to be a modernisation and deviation from Marxism invented by Stalin, and that no proletarian revolution can succeed if it is not international.
To this end they support "no war but class war" - and supporting revolutionary defeatism in all other wars besides class war, and are opposed to all nationalism.
Most are broadly opposed to national liberation movements. Some do support national liberation so long as it's explicitly proletarian and socialist in character.

They recognise the economic transition to the abolition of commodity production and the abolition of production for exchange value as of paramount importance within establishing socialism, and the transition to production for use value as a step that should be completed relatively quickly, beginning more or less immediately after revolution and being completed in a matter of years.
The count the failure to achieve this (along with SIOC) as the key reasons for the failure of previous "socialist" states.
As a result, ask a left communist if socialism has ever been tried and most will reply with "Only briefly during the Paris Commune, and the very first few years of the USSR", or perhaps a simple "No".
As a result they consider that China, Vietnam, Cuba, the USSR, etc are all essentially forms of state capitalism or social democracy for having failed to achieve this economic transition.
They refer to current Marxist-Leninist regimes and defenders of the economic systems of said regimes derogatively as Lassalleans, Dengists/Dengoids, or will just use "ML / ML-oid" itself as a slur.

They are critical of trade unionism in general, considering most established trade unions to be fully integrated for the most part into the capitalist machine. It's more of an opposition to the state of the trade union movement, that being opposed to the concept in theory. They would support unions in theory if they believed them not to be captured institutions.

They are also opposed to popular fronts - that is forming alliances with liberals, centrists, social democrats, to co-ordinate the fight fascists - believing it will lead to the movement moderating its aims and positions to appease bourgeois and liberal elements, shifting the movement to the right. They still of course fight back against fascism - but only along side other communists and socialists.

They believe in worker self-emancipation - that is an opposition to vanguardism, and that the proletariat must liberate itself and start the revolution. It isn't for the party (if there is one) to declare the moment of revolutionary action - they would consider this adventurism, but to listen to the people and educate them and prepare for the time they choose. Revolution should emerge from the workers organising themselves, not from a class of professional revolutionaries.
They are also largely considered pretty fucking autistic, shut-ins, people who read too much and don't get enough fresh air.
These last two points - waiting for the revolution, reading too much theory - is the source of a lot of memes about left communists and armchairs.

Now we can discuss the different tendencies:

>Italian Left Communism

This is also often called Bordigism, after Amadeo Bordiga - perhaps the most infamous left communist of all time.
Many Italian Left Communists really hate being called Bordigists though, since they don't like cults of personality.
These people are the most memeable and autistic Left Communists, and they make and create a lot of memes in their own communities, which they usually ban all non-Bordigists from partaking in.

Italian Left Communists are Leninists, but reject Stalin, the USSR post-Lenin, or any "socialist" states that came later.

Unlike Trotskyists who think Stalin was a big meanie and too "authoritarian", Bordigists are opposed to Stalin's USSR for being too capitalistic, for the reasons above regarding commodity production and production of goods for exchange value, and the lack of transition to what they perceive as socialist economics - ie the abolition of commodities and production of goods for use value.
They also support a transition from nationalisation to worker self-management - that is after the transition to what they consider a socialist economy has been implemented and is securely in place.

They see Marxism as a fixed scientific theory. An invariable doctrine. Therefore revising theoretical positions makes no logical sense, since you can't change what the science of Marxism says to match current fluctuations in popular opinion.
As a result they oppose democratic centralism, as a "stupid head-count" that favours sheer numbers and popularity over the unwavering theoretical correctness of a point, and also for being too bureaucratic.
Rather they support a system of organic centralism, where by if theory is correctly understood and applied as a science it should organically lead all members of the party to the same outcome. Like a hive mind consensus or something.

They support the party form, but reject electoralism, believing the party should primarily educate people on the correct theory.

>Council Communism

This is also sometimes referred to as Councilism or Dutch-German Left Communism. Anton Pannekoek is perhaps the most famous Council Communist.
In many ways they sound a little similar to Anarchists, but don't say that to them or they'll get upset.

They of course adhere to all the internationalist and anti-commodity production points outlined above, but their unique selling point is they believe in "all power to the soviets".
They split away precisely *because* of Lenin deciding to change his mind on this point and centralising power in the USSR. Then he also wrote a book calling them "childish".

It's pretty self explanatory, but they believe the Dictatorship of the Proletariat should be organised via workers councils representing each group of people, region, industry, etc.
Rather than representative democracy, you take direct part in the councils. Members of local councils can then be elected to regional councils, those on regional councils to national councils, etc.

They are almost always against the party form. (The KAPD being a rare example of a Councilist party).
They claim political parties inevitably cause the interests of members to diverge from that of the proletariat, with that divergence worsening over time, leading to corruption, power grabbing, internal strife and splits, etc.

They tend to strongly support worker self-management and workplace democracy.

>The Situationists

As much an art movement as one of Marxism, focused largely on applying Marxist political theory to the social life. Guy Debord is the most well known figure.
They mostly held opinions in line with Councilist and "Libertarian Marxist" thinkers. Artistically speaking they were heavily influenced by Dadaism and Surrealism.

They were the first to recognise and write on the notion of "the Spectacle" - capitalism increasingly dominates daily life via the social situations we experience second hand in media, which keeps us alienated from the world.
Capitalism keeps you dull and just entertained enough not to do anything by making you consume too much. Too much pointless irrelevant news, too much TV, too many adverts.
Consuming media is effectively second hand living. You're living someone else's experience, a fiction, and too much of that alienates you from the world. Capitalism is pushing consumption on you and wants you to do more of it.
The establishment always has some pointless liberal or apolitical crap to distract you from so you never consider class consciousness and churn them a profit even while you're not at work.

What should you do? Engage in the revolution of daily life.
Most people just accept whatever social reality life gave them without question. Most people accept the spectacle and engage with it.
How? Do things that disrupt monotony. Rather than engage in the spectacle, just take a long walk, go get lost, go walk around a neighbourhood you don't know and have no business being in.
Disrupt the spectacle. Graffiti shit that will make people think. When you see a corporate billboard or poster vandalise it with a message that'll, for a moment, pull people from the spectacle of consuming the advert and to think on something else.

>Communization

Emerged from failures of the primarily left communist inspired riots in Paris in May 1968, and from the subsequent critique of Bordigism, Council Communism and Situationism that followed.
There's three main currents:
>That of Gilles Dauve, which is Marxist, and claims communization theory has always been applicable throughout the capitalist age
>That of Theorie Communiste and Endnotes, also Marxist, and claims that communization has only recently become a possibility
>That of Tiqqun and the Invisible Committee, who are Anarchists

Not gonna lie half the theorists in the communization bubble write so densely that it's near impossible to parse. They like to jerk themselves off like that I suppose.
That said here's what I gather from it:

They essentially believe that there is no need for - nor is it really possible any longer - to have a worker's state with a transitionary period of socialism between capitalism and communism, and the proof is that all attempts so far have failed and ended in the development of state capitalism.
The solution? There needs to be a fundamental change in approach.
Which is that when revolution occurs, there must be very quickly - pretty much immediately - a jump from capitalism to communism.
The revolution must consist of immediate communizing measures implemented as it is all unfolding.
Wage labour, commodity production, production for exchange value, the law of value, and so on, needs to be ended as the revolution take place.
The capitalist social relations of private property, the class structure, money, and the state, and markets be abolished and dismantled on sight and immediate swapped for communist relations.
No transition periods for anything.

Furthermore they stress that the "worker's movement" and trade unions are broadly captured and work with capitalist, bourgeois institutions. The same as the criticism of trade unions the other left communists have.
They therefore stress heavily the notion of the self-abolition of the proletariat. Because you can't have a classless society if you have a proletariat. Both the capitalist class and proletariat - both poles of the class system - must be dissolved.
Marx also spoke on this. Stating that a class "can emancipate itself only by abolishing itself as a class and all classes.", and also "when the proletariat is victorious, it by no means becomes the absolute side of society, for it is victorious only by abolishing itself and its opposite".
This means abolishing the conditions that cause them to exist as a class - ie the capitalist social relations and economic system.

They're critical of formal organisations and largely supportive of insurrectionary activity, having supposedly been responsible for several acts of sabotage and terrorism in Europe, perhaps most notably in 2008, 9 alleged Anarchist Communizers with alleged links to the Invisible Committee allegedly sabotaged various railways across France in what the French government called an act of "ultra-left terrorism".

>>2892513
>They are also largely considered pretty fucking autistic, shut-ins, people who read too much and don't get enough fresh air.
They don't even lift.

>>2892513

thanks for the long post warning, my patience is very low and my time is extremely valuable, who knows what would have happened to me if i had actually read all of that.

>>2892513
To me leftcom is somebody who is addicted to porn, malding and has a deep seated urge to make it everyone elses problem.

>>2890255
Bordigists =/= Left Communists

>>2891917
>Le state capitalism
<The state capitalism, which is one of the principal aspects of the New Economic Policy, is, under Soviet power, a form of capitalism that is deliberately permitted and restricted by the working class. Our state capitalism differs essentially from the state capitalism in countries that have bourgeois governments in that the state with us is represented not by the bourgeoisie, but by the proletariat, who has succeeded in winning the full confidence of the peasantry.

<For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly


<It is impossible to stand still in history in general, and in war-time in particular. We must either advance or retreat. It is impossible in twentieth-century Russia, which has won a republic and democracy in a revolutionary way, to go forward without advancing towards socialism, without taking steps towards it (steps conditioned and determined by the level of technology and culture: large-scale machine production cannot be “introduced” in peasant agriculture nor abolished in the sugar industry


>If all ML states eventually slide back into capitalism, after 110 years of attempts, then maybe think why that is hmm?

If no non-ML states emerge to even be able slide back into capitalism, after all of time, then maybe think why that is hmm?

>Still coping about SOIC

Read on the final victory of socialism in the ussr

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>>2891917
>The comparison sounds like a paradox. Who does not know that Europe is advanced and Asia backward? But the words taken for this title contain a bitter truth.

>In civilised and advanced Europe, with its highly developed machine industry, its rich, multiform culture and its constitutions, a point in history has been reached when the commanding bourgeoisie, fearing the growth and increasing strength of the proletariat, comes out in support of every thing backward, moribund and medieval. The bourgeoisie is hying out its last days, and is joining with all obsolete and obsolescent forces in an attempt to preserve tottering wage-slavery.


>Advanced Europe is commanded by a bourgeoisie which supports everything that is backward. The Europe of our day is advanced not thanks to, but in spite of, the bourgeoisie, for it is only the proletariat that is adding to the million-strong army of fighters for a better future. It alone preserves and spreads implacable enmity towards backwardness, savagery, privilege, slavery and the humiliation of man by man.


>In “advanced” Europe, the sole advanced class is the proletariat. As for the living bourgeoisie, it is prepared to go to any length of savagery, brutality and crime in order to uphold dying capitalist slavery.


>And a more striking example of this decay of the entire European bourgeoisie can scarcely be cited than the support it is lending to reaction in Asia in furtherance of the selfish aims of the financial manipulators and capitalist swindlers.


>Everywhere in Asia a mighty democratic movement is growing, spreading and gaining in strength. The bourgeoisie there is as yet siding with the people against reaction. Hundreds of millions of people are awakening to life, light and freedom. What delight this world movement is arousing in the hearts of all class-conscious workers, who know that the path to collectivism lies through democracy! What sympathy for young Asia imbues all honest democrats!


>And “advanced” Europe? It is plundering China and helping the foes of democracy, the foes of freedom in China!

>>2892628
What a stupid contribution.
Like what level of braindamage is this?
Do you think Lenin was alive to comment on socialist China?
Do you think Lenin was a supporter of "democracy" in the sense spoken here within the context of a DotP?
Do you think the KMT (the democratic-bourgeois progressive force of which he spoke here) were superior and ought to have won vs the CPC due to this stale contextually superseded statement?
Also reminder, since you don't read or educate yourself before contributing: Bordiga and the ICP(s) consider the PRC the most progressive development after WWII.
What was that? Oh that was your glass jaw fracturing like a wine glass as it dropped to the floor? Never too late to stop being a passé meme, mate (a 2019 ML).

>>2892635
Lenin would have continued the NEP for 100 years

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too much reddit use

>>2891526
>People outside of the imperial core actually understand this shit.
wich is why they are MLs

>>2892653
It's true, I've never seen a leftcom who, upon some examination, was not an israel supporter.

One even got mad on here and linked a bunch of articles from the ICP that were supposed to prove the opposite. They were all "we must condemn hamas and iranian imperialism" type shit lol

>>2891526
>Most of the regimes revisionist MLs lionize as brave fighters against imperialism torture and kill your ass if you're a communist.
Only Iran comes to mind where some communist parties are outlawed, but other that, this is pure bullshit and projection. Most of those "regimes" you are probably talking about are in some sort of united/popular front with communists or are at least agnostic to them.

Love how this is a Reaganite Cold War talking point as well "those communists will use you effiminate gay leftoids, and then kill you as useful idiots!"

Meanwhile you get tortured and killed in states like Ukraine or South Korea when you are a communist, no matter the flavor.

>>2892670
They don't even need to be Israel-supporters and shit, it's complete radical opposition real-existing attempt of changing the existing order of things, at least Trots call ML states degenerate workers states and deem them worth defending against imperialism.

>real-existing attempt of changing the existing order of things
<look inside
>its nationalism, peaceful coexistence and trademaxxing

>They recognise the economic transition to the abolition of commodity production and the abolition of production for exchange value as of paramount importance within establishing socialism, and the transition to production for use value as a step that should be completed relatively quickly, beginning more or less immediately after revolution and being completed in a matter of years. The count the failure to achieve this (along with SIOC) as the key reasons for the failure of previous "socialist" states.

Would they consider that commodity production should be abolished even when it may put the socialist state in question in a considerable strategic disadvantage vs capitalist imperialists states? How do they think a socialist state without commodities should do international commerce with non socialist countries? It seems very utopian to me in a real context where there is an international cold war between socialist and capitalist states

>>2892804
No the revolution needs to be international.

>>2892804
You don’t allow cold war in the first place, you immediately go hot and overwhelm the enemy with too many attacks from every direction at once

>>2892696
>at least trots engage in retarded idealism like me so it doesnt hurt my fee fees so much!
kek

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Comrade Elon Musk will abolish commodity production while leftoids will continue to defend Lassalleanism

>>2892814
>>2892812
What? They can't be like that, it's impossible

>>2892817
Alexandre Kojève described Henry Ford as "the one great authentic Marxist of the twentieth century". It is Elon Musk in the 21st century.

>>2892900
Elon Musk ain't shit. The real shit is happening in China my dude. And kojeve is a pseud

>>2892816
You don't know what idealism is.

>>2892930
no he wasnt he was a stalinist

>>2890407
>he is racist because he called people out on being LARPers
I think you have brain problems

>>2893051
Western "marxists" should sit their asses down and Listen and Learn from the third world

>>2892904
>the guy who can't build rockets that don't explode and named his incompetent bullshit pork-barrel government agency after a 2015 meme is somehow comparable to henry ford

>>2893052
>just copy/paste tactics from different material conditions. It's the magic bullet for revolution!

Come the fuck on. Don't be naive.

It's called critical thinking, sorry your thirdie world nationalism stops you from engaging in it.

>>2891387
I have to work two jobs because the wife and I are moving to another apartment

notice how leftcomGODS didnt mass report this thread like stalinsissies did to the one about their surrogate daddy figure

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>>2891752
>>2891743
>>2891740
As someone who recently visited the pleroma, you offend me with how little you know about gnosticism, hermeticism or even Marxism-Leninism. I am truly shooketh.
>>2891837
You read someone attempting to greenpill, but falling short.
>>2891861
You see you are logical, but in the minds of the purist bordigafags, if your communism is not 100% idealist orthodoxy, then you are not a real communist and you better give up because that Hayekian voice in their heads is constantly nagging them with "nut reel gommunizm". Like this bordigafag over here:
>>2891917
Can you please show me what an economy without commodity production will look like?

>>2894579
The Stalin thread was full of bad faith arguments whereas here, everyone is respectful at least. You will never be a GOD bordigafag.

>>2894768
nah, you are just bitchmade, thats why you hide behind jannies, just like shitalin did behind beria

>>2895389
Never hid behind jannies.
Bordigafag, tell me your ideology. I want to learn about your ideology. tell it to me.

>>2892115
the position this quote refers to was deprecated by the advent of the internet


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