/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2906605
(Modern) liberalism is basically diametrically opposed to radicalism bro.

>>2906646
>trans workers
You're discussing children, not workers.
>social liberation
What is "social liberation", exactly?
>>2906647
We don't exist in a liberal society.
We don't even have freedom of expression.

>>2906578
England failed to assimilate people into being saxons because the English government has an interest in promoting the British identity, since the British identity is that of empire. The government others ethnic minorities while only promoting the fake British identity, and then people are surprised that there isn't as much integration as there could be. It's no surprise that Scotland and Wales have more non-white people who consider themselves Welsh or Scottish.

>>2906563
They do have a permanent effect, which is good and desirable. Otherwise why would people want to take them. People should decide which puberty they go through rather than be raped by natural hormones. Postponing kills a lot of children and adults because it lets their body be disfigured by the wrong puberty.

>>2906662
>people
Children*
Children do not "decide" anything for themselves in a legal framework, which is why it is up to their legal guardians, whether it be the family or state. I saw in Canada that a child was repossessed from parents by the state for refusing to affirm their gender identity - the same as if there was child abuse. So, it's not a matter of the child's legal choice, but the guardian, lest we also presume that a child has the responsibility of sexual consent. It is taken de facto, but not de jure.
>>2906660
>Empire
The British have not been so interested in rape as others.
>Integration
Integration is entirely proportional.
Where an ethnic majority is larger, the minority will integrate to a much better degree, while the opposite is inverse. This is why Britain becomes less "British" as less White Britons exist in it by proportion.

>>2906671
Taking hormones to have a different puberty being equal to responsibility of sexual consent is a false equivalence. Trans or not, every child goes through puberty where their bodies are irreversibly changed by hormones. They should just be allowed to decide what puberty they go through, regardless of if they have good parents or chauvinistic ones (who in an ideal world would be charged with child abuse for making their child go through the wrong puberty).

>The British have not been so interested in rape as others.
No idea what this means

>>2906680
What you're saying is that the state should intervene on behalf of children to affirm their gender identity, and so repossess them from their parents - the child is not making the decision, the state is, by request from the child.
>wrong puberty
You mean a non-preferable puberty.
There are no "incorrect" natural processes.
>child abuse
And if someone "didn't ask to be born", I'm guessing these are also grounds for a lawsuit?

>>2906682
Yes children should have rights to their own body, enforced by the state against their parents, but that's not even what's happening in this case, the NHS still won't give trans kids healthcare even if their parents want it.

>>2906682
>There are no "incorrect" natural processes.

So true, go die of cancer then lmao

>>2906682
>There are no "incorrect" natural processes.
I agree entirely, so let's shut down the health service and stop meddling with the deaths and dismemberments god intended.

>>2906641
What does bodily autonomy have to do with the proletariat? It is a mystery.

>>2906650
We're discussing workers, actually, unless you believe in 26 year old children.
(I don't, as established, I believe in letting nature take its course: those 26 year olds should be our elder class…)

>>2906671
You're wrong in law. Gillick competence has been an established principle for a long time: children can consent to medical care without parental agreement so long as they can demonstrate they understand the ramifications. This was settled in 1985!!! by the house of lords, the legislature, rather than by some phony supreme court overwriting what Parliament legislated…
Britain goes beyond even this, refusing to allow parents to consent on behalf of (or in partnership with) their child to these treatments. The child consents, the parents consent, the doctor consents - but Wes Streeting says no, so the answer is no.

>>2906623
There was also a fertiliser shortage since the start of the iran war coincided with spraying season and most fertilisers require natural gas through the haber process (this can be done without Natural gas but nobody pays for the electirfication so). Combine that with a huge season variation from teh norm due to teh El Nino (apples were coming into season in Britain in mid august when it should be mid september) and food prices this winter are going to be baaad.

>>2906705
But cancer isn't "wrong", is it?
It is non-preferable.
>>2906726
>bodily autonomy
>proletariat
We are discussing pre-pubescent children (9–12)
>26 year-olds
You seem keen to distract from the actual topic.
>children can consent […] so long as they can demonstrate they understand the ramifications
Rationally explain what stops this from applying to sexual intercourse or alcohol consumption. How does one measure responsibility?
>>2906704
>Rights
But what are rights?
Animal rights do not concern the liberty of animals, but only the safeguarding of them against undue treatment. It is stewardship. A child's "rights" are not liberties in the legal sense, but are a master's terms of agreement for holding such a property (the same way the Levitical Law stipulates conditions of treatment for slaves). The mediating third party (e.g. the state) thus preserves the law by its own right of intervention upon the offending party, else it would be an unrightful display of force; the same way a lawful police arrest is permitted. When we speak of childrens' rights therefore, we intrinsically dispossess parents of their sovereignty by ownership in the state, for if the permissions of a parent are not authoritative, then the parent is a servant of the child's demand. We read this in ancient accounts:
<the Athenians command the rest of Greece, I command the Athenians, your mother commands me, and you command your mother
https://www.yorku.ca/pswarney/Texts/themistocles.htm
Here, the natural order is inverted by representation. The child ruling the parent is exemplified by Plato as Tyranny (Republic, Book VIII) by an excess of liberty, but within this, he misses the subtleties of the oikos. Aristotle is already determined to seeing marriage as egalitarian by the constitution of the arrangement - like how Hesiod is in dismay over the curse of females over males. It is clear that the ancients already saw a collapse in natural power:
<All other men rule their wives; we rule all other men, and our wives rule us
https://lexundria.com/plut_cat_ma/8/prr
I see then that a child must decide to become an orphan by seeking a guardian in the state than in the household, which has its cost and benefit to each party. Luke 14:26:
<If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014%3A26&version=NIV
Matthew 19:12:
<there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019%3A12&version=NIV
>the NHS still won't give trans kids healthcare even if their parents want it.
It doesn't give many adults treatment either, as far as I know.
That's why many prefer private healthcare services instead.

>>2906704
>>2906733
For a narrative theme of oikos versus polis, I would recommend the tragedy of Sophocles' "Antigone" (440 BCE). As Hegel writes, the greatest tragedies are not between right and wrong, but two rights.

Letting the Labour Zionists win because you are neurotic about trans people.

>>2906733

1. Gillick Competence applies only to medical treatment. This, alone, is sufficient. The question moves from "should children be able to consent to trans healthcare" to "why should trans healthcare be exempt from gillick competence, a principle that works perfectly well for every other form of healthcare?"
   
2. The actual topic has included 26 year olds for a long time. We've been discussing it way back at >>2898420 , >>2898672 and was drawn to that poster's attention back at >>2906603
   

You cannot say "there is no genocide" by going "it's just protecting kids!!" and then handwave away the fact that they're going after adults.''

For what it's worth I don't give much of a damn about trans kids in principle, but it's very obvious that there is no compromise where you throw trans kids under the bus to protect trans adults. The people running the country want all transgender people out of public life. While you're interested in the abstract philosophical question of what makes gillick competence special, I am more interested in the practical philosophical point that the state is abandoning perfectly functional legal-administrative principles to pursue a hated minority.

>>2906743
>Gillick Competence applies only to medical treatment
Why ought it? If a child is mature enough, they must demonstrate the same capacity of adults. That is the meaning of having consent. The Fraser guidelines specifically deal with children having intercourse:
<the young person is likely to begin, or to continue having, sexual intercourse with or without contraceptive treatment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillick_competence
The precedent case concerns contraception, presuming intercourse.
Gillick Competence also limits itself to puberty (<13 years old):
<There is no lower age limit for Gillick competence or Fraser guidelines to be applied. That said, it would rarely be appropriate or safe for a child less than 13 years of age to consent to treatment without a parent’s involvement. 
https://www.cqc.org.uk/guidance-providers/gps/gp-mythbusters/gp-mythbuster-8-gillick-competency-fraser-guidelines
>why should trans healthcare be exempt from gillick competence
When does Gillick competence begin, and how is it measured?
>While you're interested in the abstract philosophical question of what makes gillick competence special, I am more interested in the practical philosophical point that the state is abandoning perfectly functional legal-administrative principles to pursue a hated minority.
I don't think anyone here disagrees that a person who is 18+ should be able to get all of the cosmetic surgery they want.

good news everyone. auditors are being demonitised from YouTube.

>>2906747
I do not care why it ought to, only what it does. The boundary game around puberty also doesn't interest me: it would be one thing to say that you cannot take puberty blockers before 13, and it is another entirely to say you cannot take them in the 13-18 range. We find ourselves in the latter situation, so the decision cannot be rooted in any sound reasoning beneath 13.

We can simply reference the courts here in any case: Bell v. Tavistock and AB v CD and others ultimately resolved in favour of allowing (a) clinicians to decide Gillick Competence in these cases just like they do in every other case, and (b) allowing parents to consent on a child's behalf (without needing a court order) to this treatment, except in cases where they are trying to overrule the child. (e.g. a parent and child together consent to the child receiving puberty blockers)

Both of these decisions were overruled by the health secretary unilaterally banning the prescription of puberty blockers for trans healthcare. This is a raw abuse of power, not some decision rooted in any philosophical or even legal principle. He could just as well have unilaterally banned the prescription of any other medication along the same lines on the basis of some other moral panic.

>>2906727
If the crisis is allowed to grow unchecked it will lead to a global contraction due to total rising costs of production

The problem is more pertinent as the white house has no solution with Iran, as they are caught in an impossible scenario: if they retreat, the Iranians win, which is unacceptable not just to the current establishment (perhaps spelling its downfall) but would be the opening shot in the total transition away from the present political order of US hegemony.

>>2906753
Issue is most of these asocial degenerates get their money from braindead patreons in Lincolnshire so the actual youtube monitisation is little. What we really need is a lawfirm to engage in civil litigation against these cuunts on a systemic level.

>>2906758
>Bell v Tavistock
Reading into it is interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_v_Tavistock
The appeal was issued by Keira Bell in 2019, who after regretting her underage transition, has been battling puberty blockers ever since, legally threatening Wes Streeting in 2025, to prohibit the private use of puberty blockers - one person's vendetta seems to be driving this. You perhaps exaggerate the case, since after the High Court's ruling, the Court of Appeal overturned the Judgement in 2021, defending Gillick Competence, as a matter of clinical discernment. So, puberty blockers were still allowed to be distributed under clinical supervision, until 2024, where they were indefinitely suspended by the government. Trials have been planned beginning from 1 August 2026 however:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-the-pathways-clinical-trial
The minimum age stated is 11-12:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c892p2qdjjxo
This in itself violates Gillick Competence, but its a re-introduction.
>Both of these decisions were overruled by the health secretary unilaterally banning the prescription of puberty blockers for trans healthcare.
Well, that itself is not an overruling of a given case, but just a new law of regulating experimental drugs. All laws are "abuses of power" if scrutinised enough. The EA2010 judgement on transsexuals is an undue overruling of GRA2004, which is why it has led to a vacuum. From all this, would you at least conclude that Keira Bell didn't have Gillick Competence, and the blame is with her own clinician? She is a victim, and wants to prevent other victims, no? It has a rational kernel.

>>2906825
Comically, the precondition of economic and asylum migration whilst prefigured by the necessity of the present international imperialist division is itself precluded in discussion from consideration within bourgeois media.

Burnham is free to reign in check political support under the popular anti migrant hysteria yet the political edifice can never contend with the question as to its necessity. Hence Burnham and Macron may stage discussions of support for US actions in subduing Iran in which the fortuitous division of wealth appears under a dual sided cloak of democratic intervention.

The public, at all times, must never hear or know of the more fundamental reality at play: the question as to 'why' migrant waves are occuring is resolved through the alchemical process of fabrication to questions of nationalism, state security, or outright propaganda regarding western exceptionalism. In short, the truth must appear malformed or fragmented in which the prime anxiety in the British consciousness is one of living standards. No attempt is made to connect these issues because the register by which this social reality unfolds is one beneath the image and impressed by the conditions of economic reproduction within British society.

That the public must swallow on the one hand the contrived and disconnected discourse of migrant hysteria and then be sold in the same breath the distorted reflection of their own political subjugation through the day to day adjudication of their ruling class is no end of misery, on which most at a fundamental level are aware.

>>2906795
Intuitively I would say that I think Keira Bell probably did have Gillick Competence (it's not like GIDS just hand out puberty blockers like a prescription for antidepressants, they bombard you to fuck with assessments) and the blame is with Keira Bell, but I am very big on this sort of let-people-make-mistakes outlook.
I think she was subsequently groomed into being a PR figure for the wider movement to remove access to trans healthcare (e.g. she and her backers lobbied Streeting to gazump the courts) despite the fact that most of those who access it are happy with the results. It would be one thing if the regret rate was high, but the fact it's always the same small number of detransitioners pulled out speaks for itself.

>>2905973
>Currently, the UK is 75% White British.
>75% White British
It's like 55-60% whytees, of whom only about a third are native Bri'ishers, they're a Mutt country just like their former colonies lul.

>>2906733
>But cancer isn't "wrong", is it? It is non-preferable.

Pedant masturbation, I think it is "wrong" that people die of cancer, especially if they can be cured, of course cancer isn't a moral actor but I think the world should not be that way

>We are discussing pre-pubescent children (9–12)

No we weren't, you just started talking about them randomly, presumably because the anti trans argument is easier to make there

>words words words

Why exactly should we care what aristo slaver freaks thought about anything? No shit that a bunch of actual patriarchs thought that anyone but adult men having power was bad and would lead to a collapse of society, are you really so simple that you can't see the obvious motivation behind their conclusion? They haven't presented any evidence beyond "trust me bro". Like if today someone wrote a play that's just a crazy strawman where women rule the world and everything goes terribly we would rightly laugh at them, why should I care just because someone did it 3000 years ago?

>>2906795
Not really. She was 15 when she got diagnosed as trans and stuck to the treatment for 5 years, receiving testosterone shots for 3 out of 5 of those years. She has since regretted her choice. It's not victimhood, it's called the consequences of your own actions and explicitly stated goals. I have all the sympathy in the world for people who fucked up their choice and came to regret it. I have zero tolerance for people who kick up a legal shitstorm about an otherwise legitimate treatment because they're part of the incredibly small minority that regretted it because they spent years lying to themselves or were genuinely stupid enough to get memed into it by social media as transphobic activists often like to paint the issue as stemming from.

>>2906874
>55–60%
Maybe in the next census, but these are current numbers (2021):
<out of the 19 ethnic groups, white British people made up the largest percentage of the population (74.4%), followed by people in the white 'other' (6.2%) and Indian (3.1%) ethnic groups
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/population-of-england-and-wales/latest/
>>2906869
>let-people-make-mistakes
Anon, this is a permanent, life-changing decision, not youth naivety.
And if the detransition rate is low, then they must not be "trans", disclosing the mistakes of clinicians, and so compensation is due.
>>2906887
If they were misdiagnosed, they are a victim.
Detransitioning means not actually being trans, correct?
It's like Christian faith; once saved, always saved.
>>2906879
This is why I can't fraternise with plebeians.

>>2906903
>Anon, this is a permanent, life-changing decision, not youth naivety.

Going through puberty is a lot easier than reversing puberty. Besides there's plenty of permanent decisions people including children are allowed to make about their health

>>2906903
Also, uygha, you are a plebian, you'll never be a chad Graeco-Roman statue guy.

>>2906903
>If they were misdiagnosed, they are a victim.
Misdiagnosed based on explicitly stated need. Let me know when we find a way of diagnosing gender dysphoria that isn't based entirely on life trajectory and a statement of will.
>Detransitioning means not actually being trans, correct?
I don't know. That would be a much more philosophical conversation and your answer would depend on your epistemology of being.

>>2906903
Your life is changed matter what you do. If there's a distinction between maiming yourself by mistake and being maimed by nature, it's that you at least have a choice in the former.

There are people on a 200 year waiting list for trans healthcare, but the "victim" we're discussing is the one case of thousands who changed their mind. Why? Why are they more special?
T. Repper who didn't transition until my late 20s because I thought I could just suffer through it and muddle through the best years of my life in a haze until dying of neglect, before finally breaking and realising I couldn't not live my own life.

>>2906910
> gender dysphoria
Laughable.

The retreat of trans advocates into the realm of medicalisation for a condition which is the result of the social production of labour signifies that you do not understand your own cause.

>>2906905
The decision explicitly requires the threshold of Gillick Competence, which is administered by a clinician. I am saying the clinician has made a victim of somebody, while you are blaming the child. Absurd.
>>2906910
>We can't diagnose a medical condition
If you can't diagnose a condition, you can't administer medicine.
>I don't know
Well, make your mind up.
>>2906930
You are assigning agency to the child and not the clinician. Why?
If the precedent of Gillick Competence is based on the clinician, then they ought to possess the legal liability of a misdiagnosis.
>Why are they more special?
Because if you detransition you were never "trans", correct?
So, if a clinician diagnoses you as trans, they have deformed you.

>>2906934
Children should have agency and control over their own bodies and what happens to them.

>>2906934
If a clinician sees 999 happy patients, 1 unhappy patient and has a waiting list of thousands, why do we privilege the whiner and let the waiters suffer unmourned? You like being philosophical, so set this out. It's certainly the mode you're operating in.

>>2906932
Vulgar marxist babble. You may use another word for it with less medical connotations if you prefer.
>>2906934
>If you can't diagnose a condition, you can't administer medicine.
You can diagnose it, it just depends almost entirely on what the patient tells you and comorbidity safety checks. Refer to >>2906939 for my reasoning as to why I think it's self evident HRT for minors should not be banned. I've transitioned at the same age as Keira - it's been a long time and I didn't regret it - that's the majority outcome! If the world experienced a sudden drop in autism score and transition regret was actually 50/50, I still wouldn't be in favor of banning it because the treatment would still work as intended for the 50% of people who want it. You can make your own decisions about your body, and indeed, you do, every single day. But I guess you live in a country where you can't carry a knife unless you have a loicense, so maybe in 2030 Burnhamreich every daily choice will be made for you by your Palantir handler based on an AI summary of 5 tabloid rag articles about whatever you're doing at a given moment.
>Well, make your mind up.
I fail to see the relevance of this point. You could say one was transgender and they're not anymore after regretting transition or that one is "born this way" and the choice is made before birth based on brain chemistry therefore it's an essential category. We lack evidence to say which is true for the majority of cases. Who cares?

>>2906943
I do not really think she is a victim of misdiagnosis, I think she changed her mind. I do not believe trans status is immutable in a simple binary or religious fashion as you suggest. (It's noteworthy here that many detransitioners stay on HRT)

It is not heartless to lack compassion to someone who lacks compassion themselves. If we grant she is a victim, she's still an idiot victim incapable of seeing that most other patients for the same treatment are not victims, and culpable for victimising them by encouraging the health secretary to ban their treatment. This is true even before we factor that she is obviously being used as a prop by a movement with more far reaching goals. If there's such a thing as suicidal empathy, it is pouring it into an hysterical-idiot-at-best bad-faith pit at worst case such as hers.

It is the moral equivalent of sympathy for the rich people inconvenienced by a local homeless shelter. Suck it up.

>>2906949
I think I misdiagnosed this discussion (errmmm where's the nanny state? they should ban leftypol, i just got into a conversation i didn't wanna have!) because I didn't know you were the guy who constantly comes into this thread to argue against transgender bodily autonomy and pulls out the pedophilia quandry every time it doesn't go your way. I hope one day you will find another hobby and your transhumanist obsession subsides.

>>2906951
Diagnosis is basically arbitrary in a case like this, as with most non physical conditions, doctors simply gatekeep procedures. This is not a discussion I estimate enjoying so I'll leave that there
Being transgender is not a choice. A wider discussion would similarly not please me.
An idiot victim who makes victims of others is a monster. We haven't banned sex on the basis of one rape victim's testimony!
She's a prop of the ruling class. Let's call her a cop.
I am saying one victim is a whinger based on her repeated campaigns with the practical effect of hurting others. If someone is a net negative for the world, why should I humour their sob story?

>>2906980
I should clarify the arbitrary comment: it is not that the conditions are fake, but that they basically rely on the patient initiating treatment. Diagnoses and internal procedures basically set the gatekeeping test for treatment. Most people are happy with what they get!

>>2906758
>it would be one thing to say that you cannot take puberty blockers before 13

But that is one the intended use of puberty blockers, to prevent precocious puberty.

>>2906943
<children should have control over their own bodies
>okay wise guy so when is it okay to fuck kids???
Did you think that was a good argument or what

>>2906985
I also resent this attempt at framing it like the one saying kids should control what happens to their body is the one that is the child fucker, when the root of this whole trans "debate" is the conservative desire to maintain the status of children as property, which is tied up directly to that sort of child fucking impetus. We KNOW that teaching children about sex, bodily autonomy, and consent directly undermines the power dynamic that conservatives exploit to abuse children, in the home, in church, at school, in sports, at work, and so on, and that's why they oppose it so much. It's not about nature, or science, or right or wrong, it's about being able to control and exploit the most vulnerable people, and perpetuating those circumstances.

To come back to Gillick: the analogy here would be of someone who was given contraceptives at age 15, regretted not getting pregnant, and now wants to ensure nobody else has a choice, willingly acting as a prop of Christian cranks.

To the tedious anon I say only this: there are greater vices than inconsistency. You are however barking up the wrong tree, looking for philosophical consistency in decisions that can be made purely on the basis of aggregated outcomes: nobody wants to be nonced, while most transitioners don't regret it, thus noncing is illegal and transgender care is legal in most civilised countries.

>>2906993
>If children should have bodily autonomy, why would this be limited by sexual intercourse? I am introducing consistency and you are panicking.

No, you're introducing a retarded gotcha by conflating children controlling their bodies with giving adults the right to fuck them.

>>2907002
Clinicians are not liable for mere mistakes in any case. If you grant that then I am in basic agreement. Treat kids based on their own comprehension, as judged by a clinician, and punish that clinician if they're egregiously incompetent.
The courts found in Bell v. Tavistock, that the clinicians in fact did nothing egregiously wrong. That Bell did not like the outcome of properly followed procedures is unfortunate, but life is full of unfortunate situations.

You could in fact summarise my basic practical position as "leave treatment up to clinicians, not courts or politicians"

>>2907018
you're ascribing the positions of mutliple anons to one person.
it is not egregiously incompetent to misdiagnose somebody. mistakes can happen in a healthcare setting!

>>2907027
Egregious incompetence would be, for example, prescribing to a child who shows no signs of understanding the treatment or having gender dysphoria.
It is not incompetent to prescribe to a child who demonstrates understanding and symptoms of GD, even if it subsequently turns out that the child in question didn't understand or have GD. Fundamentally it is a judgement of probabilities. When you show up to the GP with a cough and explain your friend had a cough, he is not negligent for not immediately suspecting lymphangioleiomyomatosis and giving you the standard advice for a regular cold.

We can as always just apply the same standards we would to any other medicine. We have not abolished any other treatment on the basis of a handful of regretful recipients.

>One of my managers at Tesco heard me mumbling 'total landlord death' while I was browsing the catalogue in the breakroom
I didn't know he was sitting nearby until I glanced around afterwards and he had a strange expression on his face, think I might be in trouble. I've also had twenty minutes more break than I should have