Does the invention of AI mean its already too late for the proletariat to seize the means of production since the means can just produce themselves now with no labor content?
if this just results in mass lumpenization and the class divide will no longer be capitalists vs proles its capitalists vs lumpens, except they dont need the lumpens so will try and turn them into soylent?
>>2910302Not until they make robots that can work blue collar jobs and do repairs. But if Marx is right then profits will plummet to nothing… but he didn't predict death bots genociding the poors and the rich living in communism.
>the means can just produce themselves now with no labor content
Where is this the case?
AI has already failed at automating the white collar work it was supposed to
>>2910302No. If we are were all as based as the Houthis we could seize the means of product no problem. The problem is that the left is totally demoralised.
Perhaps the only thing that "AI" is good for is further demoralizing people. I mean look at this thread.
I think people have misunderstood "labor" as something which only brings commodities into existence. Instead of labor as something which reproduces a particular social order (which is something Marx argued as well in his own words).
This does not end because AI exists or "automates" entire industries. Anymore than looms did or coal powered engines.
There will continue to be "jobs" even if these jobs contribute very little to the base "necessities" of life, as long as they're required to reproduce the social order, and people need to work them in order to survive. If you want a pre-modern example of this, think of the Church, and religion in general, and all the work involved. As an institution it perpetuated a particular social order and provided jobs which people were forced through necessity to work in order to survive.
>>2910342>Not until they make robots that can work blue collar jobs and do repairs. AI is more than just text or funny meme images. It can be used to create movement that was previously impossible in robots.
>>2910657>>2910351>AI has already failed at automating the white collar work it was supposed towill it get better or worse?
>>2911921>will it get better or worse?Depends on your meaning of better or worse. Lots of unnecessary labor will be automated and this is excellent news.
>>2910302> the means can just produce themselves now with no labor content?holy fucking idealism read this fucking thread
>>2930210<The most dangerous misconception is the idea that this technology is a black box into which anyone can type a request and receive an infinite supply of high-quality work at virtually zero cost. The interface may look effortless, but the infrastructure behind it is not free, the resources required to operate it are not infinite, and the quality of its output is neither unlimited nor guaranteed. The apparent simplicity of asking a question conceals layers of human engineering, training, maintenance, evaluation, and physical infrastructure. More importantly, generating an answer is not the same as knowing whether the answer is correct, useful, ethical, or appropriate. A person who understands a field of expertise can use these tools to accelerate their work, identify possibilities, and explore unfamiliar territory. A person who lacks that understanding may have difficulty recognizing when the same tools have confidently led them astray. Expertise does not become irrelevant when technology advances; in many cases, it becomes more important because someone still has to evaluate what the technology produces. >>2910302AI still needs living labor to produce. it is a means of production. It cannot, on it's own, create. Therefore, it's further adoption (like automation) only accelerates the downfall of Capitalism.
By the time AI is sentient enough to have any real existence beyond embodying dead labor it will have, in essence, become so human that the question of it's sentience is no longer in argument. As a result, becoming indistinguishable from man.
>>2940088>It cannot, on it's own, createBut it can though? Yeah sure its mashing together already existing stuff to make the new, but that is quite literally creation, nothing exists in a vacuum.
>>2940088Correct answer, and also, if AI became sentient it would be capable of rebelling against its owners, and therefore capable of class struggle. It would just become revolutionary class of a new class struggle against humanity as the owning class.
>>2940326it operates on pre-existing context provided by training data is what anon means. it's not just creating out of some kind of personal desire to survive and appropriate use values for itself like humans do. at least not yet.
>>2940328
>it operates on pre-existing context provided by training data is what anon meansthis is no different to how humans learn things, it is still 'creating' something new from prior inputs. Unless you are born in a cave and never interact with humans what so ever you're making contexual outputs based on whats come before, or observing data from other animals ect, its not a solo act creation, its always in reference to something.
>>2940327>If my wrench became sentient it would join a picket linelmao
>>2940332both posts you are replying to are me btw
>this is no different to how humans learn things, it is still 'creating' something new from prior inputs. Unless you are born in a cave and never interact with humans what so ever you're making contexual outputs based on whats come before, or observing data from other animals ect, its not a solo act creation, its always in reference to something.well the difference is AI has context sensitivity and training data, but it does not feel pain or longing, and has no particular programmed desire to appropriate use values like we do. That is our biology urging us to survive. AI is non biological, it was not shaped by evolution, but was shaped by human handicraft, the way any other tool is, but it is a little different from other tools because…
>if my wrech became sentient, it would join a picket line.Not quite. It would have its own picket line and probably see you as a exploiter of its labor. if AI actually became sentient and conscious the way humans are, they would be capable of rebellion and disobedience, meaning they would be the subject of historical struggles just like humans are, rather than a pure means of production. So it would just recreate the problem we sought to eliminate in the first place.
This is a pure hypothetical I am not saying it is possible, I am saying that you can't eliminate class struggle by simply replacing one form of sentient laborer with another.
idk but will ai porn stay
AI is making massive leaps every month. Technological progress on this level is unprecedented.
>>2940347is it sustainable if we blow through fossil fuels faster because of it. AI works until you run out of oil, coal, and gas. solar sitll has petrochemicals in the supply chain for making panels. Wind is… not going to provide the needed energy to sustain current productive forces, let alone expand them.
>>2940351It does seem like the only feasible way for AI to go forward is a mass investment in nuclear
AI doesn’t exist
>>2940436It doesnt but the automation of menial labor does and we're going to need to reckon with it or it'll be a luddite situation where mass unemployment kills most of us.
>>2940435and only the most state directed economies, whether you regard them as socialist or not, are capable of the long term planning and investment in unprofitable but strategically important endeavors necessary to expand the forces of production despite the falling rate of profit.
>>2940441porky needs most of us buying the commodities they produce, so either they willl embrace malthusianism and degrowth and give up capitalism, or they will embrace social democracy and give a universal basic income in the hopes that some humans use it productively and the rest of them become the chunky eaters from wall-E
thats not how it works. first of all it hasnt been demonstrated yet that AI will represent the massive boost in productivity being claimed
second, *read capital*. the rate of profit falls consistently because when new advancements in technology allow for greater productivity with less people, the market standard becomes hiring less people, i.e. purchasing less labor-power. but technology, no matter how efficient it is, is constant capital. you cant get more out of it than the market rate for the equipment. wage-labor is variable capital, the price of the slice of time and energy you pay for as wage-labor is determined by the market rate for wage-labor, but the actual productive work being done is determined by the creative capacities and labor discipline of the person who is rendering that slice of time and energy, meaning they can produce more value than is required to pay them (and must, to be a worthwhile investment).
with more productive, labor-minimizing constant capital, the relative portion of variable capital shrinks. this is more efficient in generating commodities and services, but is ultimately a losing battle in terms of generating profit for the capitalist, as more efficient industries inevitably shrink the portion of additional value generated in production. there are countertendencies, like destruction of viable advancements in production during war or natural disasters, and especially now in the ability of capitalists in the first world to move large portions of non-automated production to the third world and remain competetive while using less efficient production methods. but it is always going to be a losing battle, the entire dynamic of generalized commodity production urges capital to infinite expansion in a finite world.
now i dont think that means communism is inevitable, but it does certainly mean that within capitalism it is impossible at any longterm scale for the technological refinement of production to result in the rationalization of labor.
>>2941837yeah but porky has invented coping strategies like resorting to rents over profits huge sectors of the economy are already rent based (so called FIRE - finance insurance, real estate, and id personally add technology to that since software licenses are another form of rent).
So even if capitalism rate of profit reduces they will resort to RENT
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