i know you theory-minded suburban adolescents don't want to hear this, but one of the unavoidable prerequisites for any kind of leftist revolutionary effort, or any large scale human endeavor for that matter, is obtaining money. you want to organize a strike or start a union, you need money to pay your friends who are now out of work and starving. you want to start a big protest on the streets, you need money to pay lawyers and bondsmen and hospital bills when your friends inevitably end up in jail or the emergency room. you want to start an armed insurrection and go to war with cops and national guard and maga militias you need enormous amounts of money to pay for weapons and ammunition and vehicles and fuel and radios and burner phones and medical supplies and rations so your friends don't get massacred. you need a lot of money, and the money has to obtained honestly and ethically, otherwise you cease to be a revolutionary movement and you just become a violent capitalist drug/weapon/human trafficking cartel masquerading as a revolutionary movement and the people you're supposed to be fighting for will despise you even more than the regime. and you need to be able to handle the money without becoming emotionally attached to the money, i.e. you need to be willing to part with the money you worked very hard for and throw it into the pool with everyone else's money and cease to think of it as your money after that, it is now everyone's money and it doesn't matter how much your contribution was compared to anyone else's because it's not your money anymore. and trying to abandon the whole concept of money is not the solution, it's an absurdly unrealistic and lazy copout that simply tries to ignore and sidestep what is ultimately the true source of all of our problems, the fundamental flaw of human psychology that got us into this mess to begin with, which is our lack of emotional maturity when it comes to material wealth. there is no getting out from under capitalism without addressing that core problem, there is no clever shortcut that will allow us to skip ahead to the next level of human social evolution without dealing with our greed and our entitlement and our pettiness. if we can't find any reasonable middle ground between getting high on money and rejecting it outright, between capitalism and utopianism, then we've got more immediate and personal problems to deal with before we can start talking about how to refactor the entire world.
>>2915273Bro you're retarded Haz is out there actually trying to start businesses so the party can fund itself and you're pretending that he does what you do (nothing).
>>2915274Okay dude. I'm still not taking orders from people like Haz.
>>2915274Haz and his organization are a fascist wannabes. They have more in common with ᴉuᴉlossnW than Marx.
As SaboAnon said in
>>2914817>I've said it before but I think that the ACP has a lot in common with the very early Italian fascists, who often tried to portray themselves as the "real socialists" and "true revolutionaries" in opposition to both the ruling class and Marxists. The only difference is that instead of representing their break from Marxism as the true revolutionary path, they're taking a revisionist route and diluting the meaning of Marxism into something non-communist. Their positions contain the same kind of appeals to petty bourgeois interests and sentiments. >>2915277No one asked you to, schizo. Even Haz doesn't care if you follow him he only takes on the willing.
>>2915278>Everyone I don't like is a fascistRetarded. Haz's proposal is in fact that only sensible idea for raising funds LEGALLY within Western countries. Even the Trotskyists do this. The owner of WSWS/SEP is a literal member of the bourgeoisie who doesn't allow his workers to unionize. Engels was himself bourgeois. How the fuck can a socialist movement reach the masses effectively if it has no revenue stream to keep it alive? What is your proposal? Robbing banks? Oh yeah such a great idea all your hardcore revolutionaries get caught once and that's 50 years down the drain because none of you are going to be let back out. And that's the criticism offered by Socialism4All and all those other retards, in fact in Socialism4All's video he explicitly made comments arguing that rather than setting up businesses Haz and his friends should be ROBBING BANKS. There's no limit to the LARP. Fuck off.
>>2915285Haz is a Fascist and you are a rube for believing him. He is just yet another trust fund failson idiot claiming to be the "One True Marxist" when in reality he is a revisionist that diluting the meaning of Marxism into something non communist, just like ᴉuᴉlossnW and the Italian Fascists.
and guess what laws can be "legal" and can also be unjust and idiotic.
>>2915253also.
>ethicsHAHAHAHAHAHA, Nice Spooks Nerd.
>>2915285>getting this upset defending an e-celebLemme guess you think streamers are intellectuals and not glorified entertainers
>>2915274>Haz is out there actually trying to start businessesCool story, Bro. Everything I've seen is just Haz doing shit for his social media and doing the posing for his pictures and pretending to make businesses when in reality it's all clout-chasing with nothing concrete to show for it.
It's a well known fact that ACP figures rely on photo ops to create the illusion of real organizing. For example, Jackson Hinkle took a picture with a leader in Burkina Faso, but people actually living there have no idea who the ACP even is.
>muh human nature
>>2915420it's not even just human nature, it's just nature in general. you can't expect anything to happen for free, the universe is basically a chinese restaurant.
>>2915584They literally give you fortune cookies for free, try again
>>2915273>Any interest in "revolution" went out the window for me when I realized people like me (those with actual courage to do illegal shit and have risked going to prison more than once) would be taking all the risks only so that when its all over I'll be lorded over by a bunch of terminally online Hazoid narcs and autists, and I'd be working the same shitty jobs as before but my minimum wage would be slightly higher and this is "socialism" and if I don't like this I'm an infantile individualist anarkiddie shitlib who will be "shot after the revolution"vanguardsisters… im not feeling so good
>>2915273I have often said on here that revolution is a 2nd full time job that doesn't pay you, is totally unregulated, might get you killed, and your coworkers purge you after its over.
>>2915630indeed, one can hardly call themselves revolutionary without being prepared to sacrifice everything
>>2915602in every other restaurant you get an entire basket full of rolls or a stack of pita or naan or even a whole loaf of bread with a side of butter just for walking in the door. the chinese give you two tiny dry tasteless crackers with a piece of garbage in them on your way out after you just spent like $40 for a bowl of rice and some chunks of unidentifiable stringy meat that probably came from a diseased stray dog.
>>2915642I trust koreans with dog more, i bet it would pair really well with their bbq seasoning
When are you gonna realize the whole concept and act of “revolution” is bourgeois?
>>2915253>you need a lot of moneytrue
> and the money has to obtained honestly and ethicallythere is no such thing. there is only stealing from the rich to give to the poor (revolution) and stealing from the poor to give to the rich (exploitation)… why is a revolutionary cadre robbing a bank less ethical than, say, running a sweat shop?
>>2915660Robbing a bank is a stupid fucking idea, they only have a couple hundred dollars and you’re drawing the most attention possible
that's why my local anarkid kollektiv runs a scam call center
>>2915661it was a random example brought up not for its practicality but for ethicality, since that is the subject that OP originally brought up
>>2915667I didn’t know anarchists existed in rural Burma
>>2915668It’s not a random example because it’s something you’ve seen a million times in movies and tv
>>2915634but in practice all the great revolutionaries who are remembered as such are the ones who avoided sacrificing everything and in fact purged the shit out of others LOL
>>2915670i too like missing the point on purpose
>>2915672It’s not happening and you’re never getting enough people who are both desperate to go along with your program and disciplined enough to follow it through, the proletariat doesn’t exist. There are three classes, the bourgeois, the labor aristocratic majority, and the lumpen, all three of them reactionary.
>>2915676god damn you're onto a totally different subject now. get a fucking job
>>2915682I’m literally on the clock
>>2915685ok that's pretty based, respect
Whores, whores you're both ugly..now fuck and make up
>>2915746Every revolution so far has only empowered the bourgeois, and now we live in the common ruin of the contending classes
>>2915752>Every revolution so far has only empowered the bourgeoisempowering the bourgeois while disempowering the feudal aristocracy was a good thing for most people. Unless you of course want to go back to a world dominated by primogeniture, serfdom, coverture, aristocratic legal privileges, pre-industrial food production (slow, laborious, high food prices, frequent famines), footbinding, eunuchs, harems, etc.
>>2915777This. People get so caught up in fighting capitalism that they start defending feudal remnants.
>>2915777I'll believe feudalism is over when people don't have to pay 30% of their income to the lord of the land. Eunuchs and harems still exist and the left defends them.
>>2915827land ownership in a contract where people need to pay you in good and services to live there is manorialism, unless you wish to say renting a house is like subscribing to an housing contract, ie. The owner allows you to live on his property as a service (and thus should be taxed that way)
>>2915673>yes. and?Do you want to reproduce the present state of things?
>>2915777both feudalism and capitalism are class society and therefore garbage but only one of them comes with planetary destruction
>reee you heccin reactionary you want to go back reeeI dont want that and I dont think its even possible but I just hate when marxists pretend I need to be thankful to the bourgeoisie for the planetary concentration camp they have created just because feudalism wasnt as effective as capitalism at developing and moving stuff around, fuck off
Marx's praise for capitalism still assumed it was going to drive humanity into a classless, stateless society, and there is no sign of that shit happening any time soon
I think if he could see the state of the proletariat in late capitalism he would tone down his apologism for it
>>2915851the proletariat is domesticated sure but capitalism is the bourgeois mode of production
and I dont think blaming anyone is radical just doing something about it is
>>2915853>bourgeois mode of productionQuestion: do the bourgeoisie personally "produce" anything?
>doing somethingOnly the Chartists, Bakuninists and Syndicalists have had the right idea; a general strike. An industrial armistice.
like imagine thinking any of this
>Unless you of course want to go back to a world dominated by primogeniture, serfdom, coverture, aristocratic legal privileges, pre-industrial food production (slow, laborious, high food prices, frequent famines), footbinding, eunuchs, harems, etc.
doesnt still exist in some other sublated shape or form just because the bourgeoisie replaced the aristocracy, its all class society garbage, there is no going back to any of that because its all still here, is just now way harder to get rid off (such a great progress!)
>>2915853>I think if he could see the state of the proletariat in late capitalism he would tone down his apologism for it Everything is going exactly has he had expected it to.
>>2915642You've never eaten at a real Chinese restaurant before in your entire life, KKKracker. The real ones always give free dessert at the end.
>>2915880I don’t want to eat pigeons and bats in chili oil and contract a new form of SARS, thank you
>>2915847good point. death to revolution!
>>2915849>only one of them comes with planetary destructionyou do realize that we were already burning coal, tallow, etc. in medieval times? medieval society was not carbon neutral. humans eventually would have created a greenhouse effect without industrialization, just much slower.
however since superior military technology is a decisive factor in human conflicts, and superior productive forces results in superior military tech, it was only a matter of time before industrialization happened anyway. how do you put all this back in the box? you can't. the only way out is through, to either destroy the planet in global forever war, or to create new technologies that reduce our carbon footprint while maintaining our productive forces and allowing us to experience prosperity without conflict. reactionaries hate prosperity without conflict because it sounds "globalist" and "jewish" to them.
>>2916001The planet has a limited set of resources, you can’t efficiency your way out of it
>>2916024I wish more people understood this.
Humanity must either voluntarily limit its population, or be forced to.
>>2915824>Eunuchs and harems still exist and the left defends them.I love when my posting is vague
>>2915660>there is no such thing [as money obtained honestly and ethically]. there is only stealing from the rich to give to the poor (revolution) and stealing from the poor to give to the rich (exploitation)…you've got some bonkers ideas about ethics and you've internalized the zero-sum transaction-based antisocial "there is no such thing as society" kool-aid of your neoliberal capitalist overlords. there is such a thing as honest and ethical work/trade, there is such a thing as social trust. you encounter examples of it all the time in your daily life, unless you're some completely isolated loner living in the mountains like the unabomber with no contact with the rest of civilization which you obviously are not. you responded to debate with me because you had some degree of trust in me being an actual human being engaging in good faith discussion, if you didn't have even the slightest shred of trust in me then you wouldn't have given me any benefit of the doubt and you wouldn't have responded at all because you would see it as just a complete waste of time, it would be like arguing with the wallpaper. there has to be social trust, it's the only thing that holds civilization together, the only thing that makes any kind of human communication possible.
do you think the billionaire elite are bound by laws and contracts and taxes and credit scores like we are? of course not. they're bound by trust, by their reputations within the elite sphere. they can be as dishonest as they like when it comes to people outside of that sphere, i.e. us, but if they continually defraud or default or reneg in their dealings with their fellow 1% who control all global wealth and lose their credibility with those people, they are done. social integrity isn't just some idealistic warm-fuzzy virtue for poor naive moralfag suckers like us as the elite would have you believe, it applies to them too and they hate that it applies to them and they want very badly to believe that it doesn't and that they are gods who move for no man, they want to believe and make others believe that morality and physics are completely separate things and that thieves and liars can steal and lie forever with infinite impunity and perpetually-deferred consequences, they want to believe that modern technology and things like cryptocurrency and smart-contracts can obviate the need for social integrity and that putting our trust in man-made machines instead of the men who make them will somehow be completely different and will solve the "problem" that is society, but as one of their most influential posterboys milton friedman famously said, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
>>2916049Humanity could limit its population to zero and everything would be fine.
>overlords
lol
>>2915661ok let's word it differently. why is pickpocketing a rich guy less ethical than working for raytheon?
>>2916140there's no ethical way to make money under capitalism. none of your philosophizing about social trust changes this
>>2915253I remember some Platypus Society lecture from years ago where the guy concluded that leftists have to make some kind of new business or something. Didn't get much of a reaction. Anyway I'll take the left seriously when they start organizing cadres of sugar babies to drain boomers.
>>2915872>marx predicted ww1, ww2, cold war, computers, stagflation, neoliberalism, the internet, AI, the rise and fall of the USSRwat
>>2916439if you want to talk to mods go to
>>>/meta/ and click on their matrix server
randomly spamming on here is screaming into the void
>>2916440I finagled my way into a group of "sharps" and they have a joke, that's also not a joke, to fade (i.e. bet the opposite) on what a typical one of those guys bets on. Like Spencer Pratt for mayor of L.A.
>>2916455
>The mods, we discovered, don't take kindly to debate; they wage internal warfare.
yeah this is LLM
It’s so adorable when terminally online LARPers try to act tough
>>2916511
Why are you worth anyone’s time? From where I’m standing you’re just another loser who thinks online bullshit is important.
>>2916177>there's no ethical way to make money under capitalismthat's just an old tumblr meme that flattens ethics into a single dumb general overarching rule that's easy for braindead terminally-online teenagers to swallow. ethics/morality is handled on a case by case basis, that's why we have courtrooms and judges and deliberations about these sort of things. and i'll decide for myself how ethical my job is thank you very much, i don't need some dork on internet who probably lives with his parents telling me that i'm an unethical person when i'm working an honest job and just barely making a living from it.
>>2916745the context of this whole discussion was OP saying that illegal ways of making money were unethical and would make the proletariat hate you, but this is silly because pickpocketing rich people (illegal, will make the supposedly trad conservative proletariat hate your lumpen ass) is objectively more ethical than working for raytheon (legal, will supposedly make the hitlerite proletariat sieg heil at you)
this is nonsense.
>>2916504the not so adorable part is that this garbage thread somehow got 70+ replies, most of them by other internet-only communists taking op at face value
>>2916809how do you know anyone took OP at face value? honestly the standard operating procedure for me is to assume OP is full of shit but reply anyway just in case they aren't.
>>2916806>pickpocketing rich people is objectively more ethical than working for raytheonethics isn't just about how your actions affect others, it's about you. that's why it's not okay for the mortician to stick his dick up your dead grandma's asshole. it won't affect your grandma, you'll never know about it, nobody will know it happened, but the mortician will know he did it and he'll never be the same after that, his pants will come off much more quickly and easily when he's alone in the morgue than they did that first time and there are very few lines that would seem unthinkable for him to step across after having stepped across that one.
>>2918648>this conversation is now about raping corpsesgod damn bro you found a brilliant way to derail the discussion further
In ye olden days this is what dues were for
>>2919195every conversation turns into raping corpses sooner or later that's just what happens
>>2915273They hated him because he told the truth
>>2921311$1200 a month for rent is fine wtf you are mad about. A work quota requirement is based it means you don't have to fight roommates over chores and shit since everyone knows what they're signing up for. I guarantee that place is better than paying 2k per month to some asshole landlord who will never fix anything and will force you to pay for repairs. The only issue is the loud parties that can probably get really annoying but if you bought a pair of industrial grade ear muffs like any sane person you'll be able to snooze through anything.
>>2921311Can get you the same style of arrangement,
'for free. I'm serious.
>>2921335for like half that price i could rent a studio apartment where i have my own kitchen and bathroom i don't have to share and all the drug addicts and degenerates are outside my door instead of inside
>>2921811Studio apartment for $600/mo? Come on.
It sounds a bit crazy to me the arrangement but I wouldn't be surprised if some people go for it
broke bitches ITT
>>2921311>entitlementa purely superstructural phenomena that reflects increased productive forces. read marx:
<A house may be large or small; as long as the neighboring houses are likewise small, it satisfies all social requirement for a residence. But let there arise next to the little house a palace, and the little house shrinks to a hut. The little house now makes it clear that its inmate has no social position at all to maintain, or but a very insignificant one; and however high it may shoot up in the course of civilization, if the neighboring palace rises in equal or even in greater measure, the occupant of the relatively little house will always find himself more uncomfortable, more dissatisfied, more cramped within his four walls. An appreciable rise in wages presupposes a rapid growth of productive capital. Rapid growth of productive capital calls forth just as rapid a growth of wealth, of luxury, of social needs and social pleasures. Therefore, although the pleasures of the labourer have increased, the social gratification which they afford has fallen in comparison with the increased pleasures of the capitalist, which are inaccessible to the worker, in comparison with the stage of development of society in general. Our wants and pleasures have their origin in society; we therefore measure them in relation to society; we do not measure them in relation to the objects which serve for their gratification. Since they are of a social nature, they are of a relative nature. - Karl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital (1847), Chapter 6
Basically he is saying that being well-off isn't just about what you have, it's also about what everyone else has. If your income goes up but rich people's wealth increases much faster, you may actually feel poorer compared with them. Humans naturally compare themselves with other people, so our idea of what we need depends partly on the society we live in.
<The thoughts of every piece of private property as such are at least turned against richer private property in the form of envy and the desire to level everything down; hence these feelings in fact constitute the essence of competition. The crude communist is merely the culmination of this envy and desire to level down on the basis of a preconceived minimum. It has a definite, limited measure. How little this abolition of private property is a true appropriation is shown by the abstract negation of the entire world of culture and civilization, and the return to the unnatural simplicity of the poor, unrefined man who has no needs and who has not yet even reached the stage of private property, let alone gone beyond it. (For crude communism) the community is simply a community of labor and equality of wages, which are paid out by the communal capital, the community as universal capitalist. Both sides of the relation are raised to an unimaginary universality – labor as the condition in which everyone is placed and capital as the acknowledged universality and power of the community. […] The first positive abolition of private property – crude communism – is therefore only a manifestation of the vileness of private property trying to establish itself as the positive community. […] By reducing the worker's needs to the paltriest minimum necessary to maintain his physical existence and by reducing his activity to the most abstract mechanical movement. In so doing, the political economist declares that man has no other needs, either in the sphere of activity or in that of consumption. For even this life he calls human life and human existence. By taking as his standard – his universal standard, in the sense that it applies to the mass of men – the worst possible state of privation which life (existence) can know. He turns the worker into a being with neither needs nor senses and turn the worker's activity into a pure abstraction from all activity. Hence any luxury that the worker might enjoy is reprehensible, and anything that goes beyond the most abstract need – either in the form of passive enjoyment or active expression – appears to him as a luxury. - Karl Marx, Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts, Third Manuscript, Private Property and Labor (1844)
Marx is pointing out that making everyone equally poor isn't real freedom. If you eliminate private property as an institution of class society, but give everyone only the bare minimum, you've solved inequality by making everyone live with less. Human beings need more than food and shelter, they also need culture, enjoyment, creativity, education, and opportunities to develop themselves.
>>2921311>young people are cringe and smoke a lot of weed and are entitledthank you GOP grandpa
oh wait you also threw in these terms
>white>bourgeois>scarequotes around leftsorry comrade, carry on
>>2915253 Holy incredibly based, we need every leftist to see this. Get a job, get money, contribute to the class struggle and use what you can to help us get 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% closer to ending it. Because when you have money and can use it for that, at least it's better than the world getting 0.000000000000000000000000% better.
>>2922207 To be fair, many young people do smoke too much weed and some of ye need to cut back a little because every-day-stoners are insufferable to talk to when high and sometimes even when sober.
>>2922211True but besides the point. I quit cold turkey when I hit 29 and never went back.
>>2922207the couple who are running this "intentional community" are older than i am, and way way wealthier than i will ever be. the real story most likely is that they irresponsibly bought a multi-million dollar house that they could not afford and they went upside down on the mortgage and decided to try to weasel out of it by becoming glorified misclassified landlords who enjoy all of the benefits of being landlords while evading most of the regulations by claiming to be a co-op. and of course, a quick google search reveals that the house is still privately owned and the married couple are the only names on the deed and it's not a cooperative entity at all as they claim to be, the other "community members" are tenants and they own nothing and if the owners decide to raise the rent or throw them out or sell the place they probably have very little recourse because of what a convoluted legal clusterfuck it would be for them to try to do anything about it and probably not worth any lawyer's time.
i know that capitalism and finances and legal matters are boring old boomer stuff and totally lame, but leftists would really do well to educate themselves on these kinds of things because, the real ugly unspoken truth about america is that the corruption is fucking everywhere, it's not just the GOP politicians or wall street or the techbro billionaires who are crooks. a huge segment of the middle-class american population, regardless of political persuasion or how innocent they may seem on the surface, are actually dirty slimy greasy people doing all kinds of shady shit - phony housing co-ops, quack therapists and self-help gurus, fraudulent small business owners, crooked small-time landlords, rampant elder abuse and estate fraud, parents embezzling from their children, children embezzling from their parents, seniors selling their prescription opioids to their teenage grandkids, enormous amounts of tax fraud that goes unnoticed simply because nobody has bothered to do an audit, etc. our whole society is filthy from top to bottom and the sooner you come to grips with it the better. you don't empower yourself or right any of the world's wrongs by being a naive youthful idealist, you do it by being a crusty, cynical, miserable son of a bitch who trusts no one.
when you start becoming old and lame and understanding the basics of some of this boring adult stuff about money and loans and taxes and titles and deeds, you'll start recognizing a lot of nefarious shit going on, quite possibly among people you never would have suspected and always thought of as very trustworthy decent people, maybe your closest friends or even your own family and you may very well be the victim of it. if you're young you would probably do very well to get a jump start on it and suffer through the boredom of learning about it early, rather than wind up thinking "god damn, that person was a piece of shit all along i really wish i had realized it a lot sooner" when it's way too late to do anything about it.
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