I keep seeing "communists" talk in favour of intersectionality when it is just pure liberalism. Intersectionality is not compatible with Marxism, because for Marxists class is the primary contradiction (anti-imperialism is also class struggle). Radical feminism and queer liberation are both liberal rubbish as well (speaking as a trans woman). Proletarian feminism and the erosion of sex through socialist technology are the real ways to solve these problems, not bourgeois radicalism.
52 posts and 7 image replies omitted.>>2926395
>In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production.
Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, 1859
You can not "will away" your relation to the productive forces of society, even if you understand them, "don't believe in them" or whatever. Same with commodity fetishism. It doesn't matter that you recognize that an spiritual value has been attributed to a dead object as its inherent quality and not as an expression of relation between people. You still can not withdraw from it in your reproduction of daily life, even when you live inside an anarchist commune.
>>2926397Yes it’s a mental illusion that other people will choose to act on an incentive and throw me in the slammer for not working and not paying my bills
>>2926339I'd argue white and Asian women in general. You could still argue that they are still the minority in terms of positions of absolute top power, like Presidents, head of multinational conglomerates, and the such. But they are getting there.
In all other areas, I fail to see how they are underprivileged in the global north. They have better grades than men and perform overall better. They have better communication skills. And don't get me started on the ridiculous online dating market where a man has to be a 8-9 to get a 4-5.
There is still sexism, I guess, but this has become such a non-issue. Obviously mothers have it harder when they employed.
>>2925999The problem with idpol is that when you start caving in to one cliques group project because to them "X is part of the class struggle", you eventually have to cave in to every one of them and your party starts doing everything and anything but class struggle or organizing working the class. There literally will be no end to it even if the pet projects are just. The party/group will become just a another meeting place of middle class liberal freaks who can at best be a another barely passable sucdem party that calls itself democratic socialist or sometshit. Fuck alliance building and appeasing the liberals.
Thread from 2019
>>2926429I mean, things have gotten considerably better since then.
Problem a lot of the "woke 1 was crazy guys" people just substitute it with just more traditional Obama/Clinton style neoliberalism.
>>2926417But at the same time different groups do have needs that you need to address or otherwise they won't support you. You do need to build a democratic alliance to some extent. The problem is when this leads to class struggle becoming a secondary concern.
>>2926397>Class is like fake dudeMidwit take
>>2926397there it is, /leftypol/'s dumbest/least informed take of the day, so glad I hopped on today
>>2926520My contempt for vibes people grows every day
>>2926448Yeah and when you peddle to 100 different minorities, causes and subcultures you waste time, attention and energy and forgo to work that unite them all and that would benefit the majority. To prevent that work is the point in this wrecker bullshit anyway. If it's a choice of keeping group X around and the party going out of it's way to pandering to them or having them walk away, then them walking away is no loss. Most real problems with any kind of group boils down to that they are pisspoor, financially insecure and economy doesn't work for them. There is no such thing as a oppressed millionaire no matter what they land on the idpol spectrum. If they put their personal cause above communist cause then they were liberals anyway. So yeah fuck alliance building with liberals.
>>2926534>There is no such thing as a oppressed millionaire no matter what they land on the idpol spectrum.Not necessarely, but it's not like those people won't turn around the picosecond they got what they wanted anyway
>>2926035Tbh, I've never seen it being used for anything aside scoring points.
If there's a right way to use it, it has been well hidden for the past decade
>>2926271Holy shit these people are adults.
>>2926371Two? Lucky you.
>>2926401i mean, isn't it very convenient that the bourgeois intellectual criticizing the capitalist system believes that his own affluence was an inevitability and he had no say in the matter, it was just his giftedness and the natural forces of production that made him a privileged wealthy person and he can't help being beautiful…
>>2926767If you're going to be an obtuse contrarian, at least give us something to consider seriously. Goddamn liberals
and you guys constantly cite marx and quote marx like as if you think that makes your argument stronger but marx was just a commandeering poseur who wanted to install himself as some kind of intellectual leader of workers movements without actually being a worker or doing any real work, while all the real work was being done by the workers who were outside touching grass in the real world striking and protesting and forming unions and they were doing it long before marx or his ilk ever entered the picture. and you like marx because you are all poseurs too, you identify with him because he offers intellectualizing sit-on-your-ass faux-solutions to all these problems, he provides for you a way to feel like you are doing something while not actually doing something and never having to leave the safety of your parents' basements and get your hands dirty and calloused and actually be a worker and a human being, you'd rather be a bloviating toad.
>>2926773Wow, at least the leftcoms are capable of demonstrating they did the reading before having their special boy sperg outs
>Twitter user misinterprets Marxism and what it means for class to be primary, reinvents 8chan era leftypol discourse
We need to get the twitter account banned if this board is going to survive.
>>2926791lol yeah that's right cry to the mods to come ban me with your "we" statement emergency signal flare, that will win the debate for sure
>>2926773workers? you said class doesn't exist
>>2926796You're mistaken if you believe anyone was "debating" you
>>2926773most offensive of all is your faggoty french spelling of poser
>>2926800marx didn't invent labor movements or democracy. you're just interpreting reality in the authoritarian framework of "great man theory" and attributing everything to authority figures instead of people as a collective. and even marx himself would resent your giving him that kind of credit if he were alive today, in all his works he explicitly rejected great man theory and insisted that the common folk are the true actors in history. so you're not even a good marxist really, you don't even know about the thing that you are arguing for, you don't have a leg to stand on.
>>2926805Did you not just assert Marx was a lazy grifter that should be disregarded? Bad man theory is great man theory
>>2926805 you dont gotta ragebait brudda, there is no purpose in it.
Great man theory is that great men shape history, rather than history shaping the "great men". the reverenace for marx is that he is emblematic, a symbol, of working class ideology. If marx never lived someone else would have filled his role as a scientific socialist theoretician.
He is a figure head, and he became one due to his actions and.work in his life.
>>2926808>you dont gotta ragebait bruddai'm just disagreeing with you, i'm not ragebaiting. if you are feeling enraged that's your own problem, maybe go take some deep breaths and calm down.
>the reverenace for marx is that he is emblematic, a symbol, of working class ideology.that's just an opinion, a romanticized and spiritual interpretation. from where i sit marx was just a writer, one among many many others. his writings were obviously influential to a lot of people, but so were the writings of l. ron hubbard, tony robbins, and dr. seuss.
>>2926327It is! It's more popular than it has ever been in the west, and with cool people rather than losers.
>>2926825It's true, communism is unironically more punk than anarchism
>>2926807>Did you not just assert Marx was a lazy grifter that should be disregarded? Bad man theory is great man theoryi don't believe i said that he should be disregarded and i wouldn't presume to tell people whom they should and shouldn't give their regards to, i was really just making a point about how latching onto certain intellectual figureheads and offloading your cognition onto them is intellectually lazy and doesn't accomplish anything. and if these intellectual figures genuinely are leftists and want to empower the masses and aren't just churning out propaganda slop, then the last thing they would want is for people to do that, to just read their books and accept them at face value and follow them to the letter - they aren't trying to give people a blueprint, they're trying to give people a pen. and i think marx was genuine in that regard, but like many intellectual figures especially those of the extremely classist and elitist post-renaissance western european society, he was limited and he was indoctrinated and he had tremendous cognitive dissonance wherein on one hand he treated the common folk as the true agents of history but on the other hand he dismissed them as ignorant helpless masses and you can see this contradiction throughout his entire body of work. and it wasn't really his fault, considering the time and place and privilege he lived under it was probably the best he could manage to do. his contempt for the poor was real and palpable and he could not get shed of it no matter how hard he tried. but we in the 21st century have no excuse to suffer those same limitations, we have over a century of newfound knowledge and experience to draw from that marx himself would have traded his arms and legs to have access to, so we should probably get over our boner for 19th century european intellectualism and looking for things from the past to appropriate and regurgitate in the present and instead we should be doing what people like marx did and take all the information they had gathered from the past and use it to write something new in the present.
>>2926448>But at the same time different groups do have needs that you need to address or otherwise they won't support you.can you give an example of needs that should be addressed through idpol?
like…I've never heard black people be like "we need special attention and privileges" at the end of the day combating police brutality, gentrification, poverty, etc is something that affects everyone and not just the black community.
in my experience intersectionality is only ever brought up when upper class liberal women want to justify talking down to working class men because "err its more complicated than class" even though it really fucking isn't lol. if you solve someone's class needs you solve everything else holding them down by extension. give young inner-city black men higher paying jobs and suddenly gang violence disappears as they have a higher stake in their community and place more value in their own lives. everything else is just a distraction.
To be frank, I have rarely seen this stuff explicitly brought up outside of the internet and media operations. Or the few protests I've attended in my life. But I feel you can find everything at a protest large enough.
I think this sort of identitarian gate-keeping is past its prime anyway. Nowadays the culture war absorbs everything and pumps out more of itself like ideological grey goo. The hurdle is getting everyone plugged into the discourse in some way or another. When people talk about "boomers dying out" I don't think they realize how much of a monkey's paw wish that is, now that every child comes with a smartphone under the arm. Boomers and genX were the last generations with a media handicap, let that sink in.
>>2926962i think that this whole phenomenon of everyone living in their own little private curated false realities is going to end one way or another, anything that cannot go on forever eventually stops. maybe the internet will be overrun with so much machine-generated slop that people just lose interest in it, maybe the loneliness will become so unbearable that people will have no choice but to stop being so selective about whom they socially interact with and they start forming bonds with people they would have ordinarily could find no common ground with, maybe the circumstances of everyone's lives will become so dire and so terrible that all their petty grievances will seem so trivial in comparison that they simply forget about them. i've never bought into the techno-optimism that most westoids tend to gravitate towards, i don't think technology really changes anything about human psychology or can ever be an adequate substitute for society and genuine human relationships, and likewise i don't buy into the techno-doomerism and think that technology can permanently keep human beings divided and alone and insulated from reality forever, reality has a way of asserting itself whether we want it to or not like a hungry grizzly bear eating some flamboyant weirdo who thought he was taming a bunch of harmless puppies for years and years.
Rawlsian thought must be fought against
Moralism must be fought against
The masses only need to understand the dialectic
>>2927108Sorry you got filtered.
Maybe put down the bad dragon dildo and pick up a book.
>>2926035You combatted these oppressions very effectively the last 30 yrs, my man. Change nothing!!!
>>2926397Damn if only people starving to death knew that their class is only a mental illusion. Free your mind, man.
>>2927655did it ever occur to you that the reason they are starving to death is because our society invented a dehumanizing fiction called "class" to justify their starvation and pass the blame onto them? if they were human beings then as a society we would be guilty of neglect and it would be our fault, but thankfully that's not the case, they're just lower class, it's in their nature to be poor and suffer and starve and there's nothing we can do about it.
>>2927993bro I need to hear your opinion on this: is force the cause of motion, or is it an epistemological abstraction of the nature of the relationship between mass and acceleration?
>>2925999intersectionality is a trvth nvke if you just look at it as a list of things porky uses to divide the proletariat, and a list of things that proles should not discriminate against each other for. it only becomes libmaxxing if you try to use it as some kind of basis for dethroning class as the primary contradiction of class society
>>2926397>the problem isn't that class exists, the problem is that we believe that it exists isn't this just literally idealism in the sense that it suggests that material conditions arise from human thought, rather than the other way around. we see in the universe that the mind lags behind the material conditions, both in terms of chronological emergence, and in terms of apprehension. the universe was around for a long time evolving silently before life showed up, contrary to creationist myth. once life arrived it was a long time before that life was capable of "thought" and wasn't something like a cluster of cells in the ocean. once "thought" emerged it took a long time before language, tool making, and symbols came about. So the material conditions for life, thought, language, and tool making are a prerequisite for those things emerging. only once agricultural society emerged and surplus accumulation became possible did class society emerge, because class society is a product of humans finally being able to produce more than they need to survive, but that surplus accumulating only among certain groups due an asymmetry of ownership. Ownership is material insofar as class society divided land and natural resources according to proximity and the ability to defend hoarded resources. Property law emerges from the intellectual effort to sustain this state of affairs by superstructural means like secular and religious authority. We see then that class society is not a result of believing in it. class society emerges from material conditions of surplus accumulation in settled agricultural communities. class society evolves alongside modes of production, means of production, and productive forces (technology). the conditions for abolishing class society come about with certain historical developments that are (relatively) recent.
>>2927993class as a concept only emerged to describe the material conditions of exploitation and surplus accumulation, long after those phenomena had already emerged in practice. The "fiction" as you call it is actually a theoretical descriptor that emerged after class had already become a fact in practice.
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