Three years after October 7th this very difficult question needs to be asked:
Materially speaking, what can the American left — or any country’s left — do to actually “support” Palestine?
I’ve been an activist for Palestine solidarity since 2008. I’ve seen this movement change drastically during this time. Basically, 18 years ago you could support a two-state solution on the ‘67 border just fine without scrutiny. Now, post-Gaza genocide, you’re considered a “Zio” or “normalizer” if you support anything other than a full-blown Algeria scenario whereby every single Israeli Jew is deported or forced to flee. But let’s be honest: even if this is what we wanted, the American (or overall western) left has no ability to make this happen. It’s as stupid as claiming you’re a sellout unless you support a gigantic communist uprising happening tomorrow. Given that what we mentally support means nothing unless we can do material support, what’s the fucking point?
Oh but it’s a MORAL LITMUS TEST! — so fucking what? Even if we wanted to weed out the “immoral” people from our movement we still have no ability to carry out the results we want to see.
So where does that leave us? What should the left be doing for Palestine that it already hasn’t been doing for the past 20 years? We’ve done mass protests, boycotts, pressuring politicians, attempting to blockade weapons shipments, etc. Some people like Elias Rodriguez even used political violence. And guess what? Nothing happened in terms of the Palestinians winning. Israel’s reputation is in the shitter, but why hasn’t that translated into a Palestinian victory? How much longer do we have to wait for Israel to collapse, and if that happens on what basis would an “Algeria” scenario emerge?
Maybe I’m wrong but I really want to know what it actually means to “support Palestine” now.
>>2928067>what can you actually dkbomb/shoot israeli embassies in your country to inspire active resistance to the zionist entity.
Most "activists" won't do this because they don't actually care about palestine
>>2928068Imagine posting something like that on a message board with your IP address fully visible.
Who cares? Allah will not allow Zionism to last another five years.
>>2928067israel is entirely dependent on the west, and especially US support, so the destruction of the US empire is the necessary prerequisite to any significant change
>if you support anything other than a full-blown Algeria scenario whereby every single Israeli Jew is deported or forced to fleeor a south africa scenario, where palestinians simply become normal citizens. But thats prolly too late or too early, what with the genocide. Two state solution is as unrealistic as a one state solution, the zionists will never accept it.
But you know, if an actual leftist was in power in an important nato country (france, turkey, italy), you could just send humanitarian aid escorted by your navy, which would be better than letting them slowly die. I'm skeptical even someone like melenchon would have the balls, and he'd have to win first, but this could be possible.
>>2928082you think thats funny you cunt?
At this point, pushing the Overton window is really the only thing we can do. It sounds defeatist but it will be the solution in the long-run. Gen Z overwhelmingly HATES Israel. Keep voting for anti-Zionist DSA candidates and we can gradually change policy. Without US weapons Israel is toast.
>>2928082I've been saying this
>Materially speaking, what can the American left — or any country’s left — do to actually “support” Palestine?
work to destroy the Great Satan. when the USA falls, so too will Israel
>Now, post-Gaza genocide, you’re considered a “Zio” or “normalizer” if you support anything other than a full-blown Algeria scenario whereby every single Israeli Jew is deported or forced to flee.
yeah? because Zionism has been revealed to all what it is, and what it always has been. also we shouldn't deport them. not a single Israeli is to be allowed to flee
>>2928067>anything other than a full-blown Algeria scenario whereby every single Israeli Jew is deported or forced to flee.I can’t think of a single instance of 7 million people simply getting up and leaving a country in a short amount of time. You don’t even see this with modern refugee crises. Syrian refugees were about that number but they fled over the span of a decade, not within a year or two.
The answer so far seems to be nothing, "killing the USA" isn't a realistic proposal at all (if we could do that, can you imagine how fucking strong we would be in this imaginary scenario?), and as for doing le epic terrorism in your own country, even anon admit it's to """inspire""" ACTUAL resistance (from whom? No idea)
>>2928099seize the means of production
>>2928067I’ve been active in the movement for almost as long as you and I get this. Ending American weapons sales to Israel is no guarantee that Palestine will be like Algeria. If anything, Israel will just buy weapons off India. The Palestinian resistance also has to be strong enough to defeat Israel in the first place, which it isn’t. And how we go about ending American weapons sales in the first place is a problem. We’d have to elect enough politicians who are pro-Palestine enough and not in the pockets of the military contractors or tech companies that profit from weapons sales. It’s a muddy situation all around.
>>2928103What MoP are there to seize anymore?
>>2928104>We’d have to elect enough politiciansjust do proletarian revolution
>>2928082I actually agree with that forecast, but my rationale is:
>oct 27 israel goes to the polls>no projected ruling coalition>bibi's faction is cooked<settlers unpopular for burning Israel's international image<haredi unpopular for cruising on welfare while the IDF has a manpower shortage>the technocrat moderate fascists are cooked<too racist to form a simple majority coalition with the arab parties<can't sway bibi's core supporters because the settlers and haredim existentially require handouts only bibi will give<the moderate technocrats always yield because Israel is "in danger">bibi wins be default as a "caretaker PM">security crisis ensues>technocrat right yields and forms a new bibi led ruling coalition>slim to no chance they weather successive caretaker governments but they could oust bibi>SIKE>It doesn't matter who wins because there's core contradictions built into contemporary Israeli politics:>moderate technocrats win…<skate by using bibi as a scapegoat<still have recruitment problem<still have no economy because the tech sector left<3 years in they need to conscript haredrim or pull out of west bank<political crisis or civil war>triggers massive loss of territory/dissolution over about 10 years>but if bibi wins…<ignores contradictions<keeps doing false flags<keeps creditmaxxing<3 years in Israel gets a credit downgrade to speculative<every public service shutters overnight<no IDF support for settlers<no welfare payments for haredim>triggers massive loss of territory/dissolution over about 5 yearsthere's no scenario where they recover, and the numbers suggest they're going to let it ride.
>>2928091>keep voting broholy shit they did the meme
You’re not gonna get anywhere until you confront the realities of ZOG. As long as ZOG is a dirty word on the left you will be forever be carrying water for the Jews.
from where i sit it's not even about palestine and it shouldn't even be thought of as a "palestine solidarity movement", palestine is not responsible for any of this, it's the israeli government and the foreign governments who support it who are responsible. if we really want to talk about this seriously we need to first and foremost stop the victim-blaming and stop internalizing revisionist narrative, i.e. stop thinking of palestine and its people as the center of this issue. israel is the center, specifically the far-right nationalist authoritarian regime and its brainwashed supporters who are running the country. and they are not the majority and they are not representative of the will of the israeli people, last i checked netanyahu's approval rating has been abysmal and the majority of israeli citizens are against the war and want it to end. and if not for the united states and certain other western powers and their longstanding imperialist/global capitalist agendas and deeply-rooted islamophobic christian nationalist sentiments, the world probably would have intervened and put a stop to this long ago, revoked israel's access to the global market and strangled its economy and removed netanyahu and the far-right zionist minority from power and allow the people of israel to elect new leaders who aren't tyrannical genocidal lunatics and actually have the interests of the people in mind instead of trying to glorify themselves and secure their historical legacy with some scorched earth suicidal crusade. the palestinians can recover from what has been done to them they can bury and mourn their dead and clear out the rubble and rebuild their cities and the rest of the world who are sympathetic to their plight will lend whatever support they can, but the damage israel does to its own international reputation is irreversible and eventually will reach the point where the rest of the world will not or cannot help them and when that happens israel will cease to exist as an independent nation, it will collapse and its ruling class will flee and someone else will step in to assume command over the people who remain, someone who will very likely be even less interested in their wellbeing than the former regime was.
>>2928130So this is basically: "It's okay because Israel will collapse on its own." Exactly what OP is skeptical of.
>>2928067>what can the American left When it comes to Israel the American left can do the most as Israel collapses the exact second when USA stops giving them money and weapons.
>>2928069>Imagine posting something like that on a message board with your IP address fully visible.idk how often you come here comrade but it's like this every day. this place is for schizomaxxing and antagonizing people
>>2928137the left can accelerate the collapse by deepening the economic crisis in Israel by increasing the pressure to boycott. but crucially this is just accellerating:
>the poverty rate is growing unchecked>they don't have enough soldiers or money to secure northern Israel so they just declared the state of emergency over and left their citizens in the region to cower in the shelters under missile barrages from Hezbollah.>they're still copping Iranian rockets they can't block on a weekly basis>they're still suffering a brain drain>their southern port in Eliat is both physically and financially wrecked>even if the port was open nobody's buying their shit>agriculture dead>academic partnerships withering on the vine>even their disgusting arms tech industry is in recessionthe illusion of stability is a mirage created by domestic and media censorship. they're completely fucked. serves the bastards right.
>>2928125damn i ain't chiefed a blunt like that in 10 years, brings me back
>>2928149I think that nonsense with the plane was bibi shooting his shot. regardless, if you read the post Bibi winning yields the least runway for the genocidal apartheid state.
>>2928144>>2928148Seems kind of naive to put all your eggs in one basket with the idea of Israel collapsing.
How long until "the collapse" happens, and on what basis will it guarantee the Palestinians rise up and seize their country back?
>>2928156>how long until the collapse happensI think between 5-10 years, but it's not happening all at once. things are getting worse for the forseeable future, and Israel is locked into a death spiral.
>on what basis will it guarantee the Palestinians rise up and seize their country back?it doesn't. this is the growing popular globl consensus but they'll be at the mercy of every other regional stakeholder, alongside germany and the US. the most likely event is Israel becomes a failed state, and then a neocolonial rainbow failed state emerges from the ashes.
having said that, the Palestinians have an interest in the region that is not shared by the settlers that are only there for the handouts, and are way more numerous per-capita than most other indigenous population subjected to colonial extermination.
>>2928067>if that happens on what basis would an “Algeria” scenario emergeWhat's the alternative at this point, assuming Israeli defeat? What would be the basis of a resolution à la South Africa? I don't know what the mood among whites was in SA at the end of apartheid, but they have essentially secured a privileged position in South African society by ending legal inequality without much economic justice. Israelis seem far too bloodthirsty right now for such foresight.
Also, Apartheid South Africa was a complete pariah at the end of its existence and was under constant external attack by its neighbors with support from the Soviet Union and boots on the ground by the Cubans. The pariah status doesn't seem to be happening with most of the world still holding its hand over their heads and, while they have Iran and Ansar Allah, there's no comparison to the military situation the minority government faced in SA.
>>2928137that's not what i said at all, in fact i said the direct opposite of that, that israel collapsing would not be a good thing and would not end well for anyone and that if something isn't done soon the situation will get worse and end in a catastrophe. and really the main idea which i probably should have circled back to instead of just trailing off stream-of-consciousness style is that palestine is not the issue and we need to stop focusing so much on the victims of the crime and focus more on the perpetrators. sympathy is shit. fascism is a cruel and merciless inhuman machine and is utterly unmoved by our liberal tears and i suspect that the palestinians who are suffering and dying right now don't care very much about our sympathy either, they just want the machine turned off.
Israeli working class
>>2928161The point is that western activists can't force Palestine to become Algeria, so why put so much stake in this idea? It's like saying you're immoral if you don't think a socialist revolution will take place in America within the next 12 months.
>>2928067>>2928130You're a delusional retard or ill intended
The opposition to Nutty is solely because they think he didn't do a good job at wiping out enough palestinians and lebanese, every single """israeli""" is a mosntruous, psychotic, fascist cockroach and the only solution is making these rodents work for life in gulags to pay for all the atrocities they inflicted upon the levantine peoplss
>>2928165if israel collapsed it would leave behind a catastrophic power vacuum with multiple rival factions and proxy armies and the remnants of the IDF and the US military all scrambling to establish control over the country and its stockpile of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons by any means necessary, with millions of helpless civilians caught in the middle, it would be a bloodbath. and palestine would see an influx of israeli settlers like never before and these settlers won't be motivated by vague ideological sentiments or tax breaks or affordable housing, they will be motivated by pure primal terror and rage and what they do will make the previous waves of settlers look like a gentle summer breeze.
>>2928179>palestine would see an influx of israeli settlers like never beforethe airport maybe.
>>2928184>accelerationist rip-the-bandage-off type arguments about making/letting the situation get worse and turn into a catastrophethe state of Israel going tits up isn't a catastrophe, and the only ones redlining it straight into the wall are the Israelis themselves.
you're trying too hard boys. you guys are out of runway and out of money.
>>2928186>the airport maybe.oh yeah 10 million people in the middle of a warzone will just pack up all their jew gold and squeeze into a few 737s and move to florida.
>>2928192brother you think the US Army is going to come save you. you need to look into how the japanese, koreans, and phillipinos feel about occupation. the US Army recruits directly out of KKK country. they're the last thing you want to see during hyperinflation: they raped their own soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan, you guys are getting dressed in striped pyjamas first.
neo-hebrew is going to need a word for sucking dick for canned goods.
>>2928067>if you support anything other than a full-blown Algeria scenario whereby every single Israeli Jew is deported or forced to flee.yeah anything other than that makes you a liberal zionist and you have no place in our movement. you are a weight holding us down. you are working against the palestinian people by keeping this bs up.
"even if its not what we want its unrealistic to want the apartheid regime to go, you cant expect the boers to just give up their land, you gotta work with them and make them give blacks equal rights!" thats how you sound, screw you
>>2928255We have no ability to implement an Algeria solution so the point is moot.
>>2928257>We have no ability to implement an Algeria solution so the point is mootit would be surprisingly easy if the neighbours just spammed rockets on israel, or the us/eu just stops its support. how long would they survive without external support? 2 weeks? 2 months? maybe half a year? theyre not used to shitty living conditions and would piss off back to europe as soon as it gets uncomfortable.
>>2928257Just do BDS to every zionist supporter and enabler. Pockets hurts them the most. Unfortunately many "pro-palestine" groups still supports zionists. e.g. Jacobin support of Hollywood.
>>2928258NTA but what is your actual proposal
>>2928260>NTA but what is your actual proposalhow to deal with nazis you ask? make tel aviv look like dresden. if that doesnt work then netanya then haifa then bat yam and so on, they will go on their own.
>>2928264That’s not an answer.
>>2928258>>2928259Ending US aid to Israel and BDS have been the strategy of the Palestine movement for almost 20 years.
It literally doesn't matter what "solution" we support.
>>2928264American leftists don't have the ability to bomb Tel Aviv. And I don't think a large number of them would even want to even if they had that power.
>>2928266Real BDS has never been tried
>>2928067Geopolitics is just culture war posturing shit at this point.
how many of you phony performative dipshits can even find israel on an unlabeled map
>>2928067Providing material support to Hamas and the houthis is illegal, and well I will be more than happy to help, I have a life and family and would prefer not to be in jail
>>2928592Nothing, wouldn't dare to suggest anybody ought to do something illegal like that.
>>2928176>the only solution is making these rodents work for life in gulags to pay for all the atrocities they inflicteddidn't germany already try that and not only did it not work but it actually led to the creation of the country you are now complaining about?
>>2928176Good luck with implementing that.
>>2928632no. most of the key events occurred before the holocaust, and were conducted in concert with Britain and Nazi Germany:
>the British occupied Palestine with the goal of creating a Jewish colony there in the 1840s>the zionist movement formed in the 1880s>the British announced their intention to make a "Jewish Homeland in Palestine" in 1917>the zionist terror groups that took Palestine from the British formed in the 1920s>in an effort to bolster the Israeli population zionists cut a deal with the Nazis in 1933 that funded Nazi Germany while they forcefully relocated Jews to Palestine<up until this point the Nazis were focused on political opponents, meaning you could argue the reverse: that Israel caused the holocaust, but you'd need to ignore the raging anti-semitism of Nazi propaganda>in 1944 one of the zionist terror groups that formed Israel tried to ally with the Nazis against Britainthe key events that led to the creation of the country we are complaining about are:
>the advent British colonialism and imperialism>the foundation of the colonies in the Americas>the cotton trade war between the British and Abu Ali Pasha the Ottoman ruler of Egypt>the siege of Akka>the Balfour declaration>the campaign of terror started by the Haganah>the British designing their exit from Palestine to cause maximum chaosnow I know what you're thinking:
<holocaust: 1944<nakba: 1948<holocaust happen then israel happen<holocaust make israelthe problem with this oversimplification is twofold: British Mandatory Palestine had restrictions on Jews immigrating from Europe until after the Nakba, and the majority of Jews that experienced the holocaust were living in the USSR and did not leave for Israel in any significant numbers until the 1970s.
>>2928963I read it all because I wanted to know how someone could be sick enough to burn down hospitals, and now I still don't.
>>2928919I fucked up, the lehi tried to cut a deal with the nazis in 1941, not 1944. they weren't that depraved.
>>2928067>Materially speaking, what can the American left — or any country’s left — do to actually “support” Palestine?wield even the most basic fucking executive functions in cutting ties
>So where does that leave us? What should the left be doing for Palestine that it already hasn’t been doing for the past 20 years?
What about creating a /leftypol/ international battalion to join Hezbollah and Iran in sending an expeditionary force to overthrow Al-Jolani and restore the secular Arab Ba'ath to power in Syria? It'd restore the land bridge between Iran and Hamas.
>>2931604This woman is an idiot. The reason we care about Palestine is because the Palestinian resistance is good for global socialism. Sudan and Congo have no such resistance movements and are therefore useless to our political aspirations.
>>2939913>restore the secular Arab Ba'athThere is nothing left of that party to restore. They agreed to dissolve themselves and the only remnants are a handful of Alawite officers on the run from the new authorities.
>>2940369>The reason we care about Palestine is because the Palestinian resistance is good for global socialism.How exactly? What makes this different from all other liberal humanitarianism?
>>2940372You can’t end capitalism without ending Zionism.
>>2940382Why not? Why is this form of nationalism so special compared to all other forms of nationalism?
>>2940420Because the Palestinian resistance furthers our goals. Africans don’t.
>>2940444>Because the Palestinian resistance furthers our goals. How exactly?
>Africans don’t.Why not?
>>2940454Africans haven’t forged strong relations with the western left for decades like the Palestinians have.
>>2940456So its about vibes?
>>2940469Nta but Vibe coding the Palestinian revolution
>>2928125Why is Adam Friedland smoking weed in Mexico?
Unique IPs: 41