Dengism is retarded
>created a national bourgesisie that constantly has to be purged because they obviously oppose the state
>created an economic bubble that caused the GDP and living standards to collapse by 1993
>the industrial base for it was only even possible because of maoist central planning years earlier
>is not giga
>is retarded
>>2937402name one country that is good OP
>>2937411deng lost china is a pussy state that does nothing cuz muh surplus value needs to be maintained
>>2937409Mongolia because it made deng seethe
>>2937402no such thing as dengism
china's methods were simply to retain and harness capitalists as a class until they outpaced the west as a way to resist imperialism, which they are doing. This is a perfectly viable thing in ML. China took 5 steps back and is now 10 steps forward. As long as the capitalists dont overthrow the state or be liquidated outright there shoudlnt be any major conflict
>>2937486>allowing our proles to be enslaved by chinese billionaires instead of american ones is anti-imperialismRetardation
>Guys epstein was anti-imperialist because he worked for third world AES state of israel against the usa pigs
>>2937472you can outsource the jobs to them but you can't outsource the revolution to them. that's your job.
>>2937492>enslavedslavery was a different mode of production
>chinese billionairesget in the trench and put on the budenovka or shut up. you will go to work tomorrow, and so will the chinese. you will not die for communism and neither will the chinese proles. nobody wants to get in the trench and get shot at anymore. most people realize that's it's better to win slow. everyone has nukes and it's not 1917 anymore. you can no longer overthrow the biggest country on earth with a handful of peasants with horses and mosin nagants.
>>2937510anarcho-primitivism is an idealist, suicidal, reactionary meme ideology that has no method of implementation that wouldn't involve killing billions of people and then spending eternity being a hyper-vigilant freak to make sure nobody accidentally reinvents anything besides sharp pointy sticks.
human conflicts are decided first and foremost by superior productive forces. this is why a handful of conquistadors with european smallpox and muskets can destroy an entire army of aztec warriors.
even in a conflict where technological prowess is supposedly equal, the conflict will be decided by numerical superiority, which is decided by food production. A primitivist can only lash out like a lone wolf against technology, and opt for non participation or suicide. Even if society collapsed from ecological strain, whoever remained in the ruins would compete against one another based on the new, lower productive capacity of the collapsed environment. The only solution to technological development is the end of life itself, since evolution is a biological arms race between species and their environments.
>>2937518<The only difference as compared with the old, outspoken slavery is this, that the worker of today seems to be free because he is not sold once for all, but piecemeal by the day, the week, the year, and because no one owner sells him to another, but he is forced to sell himself in this way instead, being the slave of no particular person, but of the whole property-holding class. – Saint Engels
>>2937521i'm familiar with the quote, it's very funny haha, because i don't think in capitalism that it's legal to rape or kill your employee if you've rented his labor power for 1 day. though i'm sure things were done a little differently in the 19th century when engels wrote that and they were throwing british children into meat grinders for 3 pence an hour
Buddy, what if I told you China has always been capitalism, and has always been Dengist right from the very start.
The meaning behind the Chinese Flag:
>The Large star:
Represents the leading role of the Chinese Communist Party
>Four smaller stars:
Represent the four social classes of China's New Democracy, which include:
>The proletariat
>The peasantry
>The petty bourgeoisie
>The national bourgeoisie (patriotic capitalists)
China has literally celebrated the bourgeoisie, the capitalists… all from day 1. To the point of honouring the capitalists on the flag of their supposedly communist movement.
Anyone who calls China communist shouldn't be taken seriously.
>>2937577>China has literally celebrated the bourgeoisieThe bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.
The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations.
>>2937578You must be so happy living in a system ran by and for the bourgeoisie then huh?
>>2937578Okay im pretty sure new democracy didn't mean the bourgesisie replace the feudal lords the bourgesisie shouldve been abolished by now retard
>>2937581>>2937583i love nu leftypol
<quote marx<get argued with according to what they think you said and not what you actually said >>2937801Capitalism is bad tho, this shouldn't be controversial
There's a reason he was kicked from his party positions twice for being a "capitalist roader"
>>2937802Capitalism is neither bad nor good, it is just a stage of development that needs to be progressed through.
>>2937804I shouldn't have to pedantically explain things we all should know already. We've (I hope) all read Marx.
Yes capitalism was historically progressive compared to feudalism. No it isn't good to have the so-called communist party be taken over by elements who want an eternity of state capitalism, to halt historical progress, to enrich the bourgeoisie.
>>2937794<If private property, money, abstract value production, class society, and the state, are abolished prematurely, when the oppressive logic and power of capital still controls the entire world, China would become vulnerable to both external imperialist violence and internal reactionary sabotage (no doubt under the banner of “democracy”). The Communist Party would be immediately compromised by foreign backed elements; the country might be torn apart once again by civil war, and once again subjected to imperialist domination. The Chinese revolution, what so many millions fought, worked tirelessly, and sacrificed their lives for, will have been for nothing. Marxism is anything but rigid and dogmatic, and has always been about adapting to the ever changing objective conditions of each era, using what ever is available toward revolutionary goals. The opinion of those who think that China should have chosen the disastrous course of action described above, or at least remained underdeveloped, poor, and weak, in order to satisfy their fundamentalist interpretation of Marxism, should not be indulged. These myopic and short-sighted “left com”, “ultra-left”, or modern “Maoist” types love to denounce modern China as a betrayal of socialism, without considering that it is the failure of the Western left to do successful revolutions in their countries which made it necessary for existing socialist states to adapt to the global conditions of entrenched neo-liberal capitalism. Those who think that 1.4 billion people, who for 200 years suffered so immensely under vicious colonial rule and brutal capitalist domination, will so quickly forget what their true enemy is, don’t know much about capitalism, colonialism, or people.- He Zhao, The Long Game and Its Contradictions, 27th October, 2018
>>2937805>No it isn't good to have the so-called communist party be taken over by elements who want an eternity of state capitalism, to halt historical progress, to enrich the bourgeoisie.Can you prove this is what has actually happened?
>>2937806>when the oppressive logic and power of capital still controls the entire worldOkay so what is China doing about this? China is *the*
capitalist power, rivalled only by the US
>>2937807Please visit Shanghai or literally any other Chinese city and you'll never say shit like this again
>>2937802"dengism" doesn't exist and china is not capitalist but socialist. This is really not that controversial, but here we are
>>2937808I'm not baiting, I honestly think anyone who uses the word "dengist" is retarded. It's similar to someone saying stalinist in a derogatory manner
>>2937811> what is China doing about this? is revolution just another job you outsource to china or is it something that eventually happens in the imperial core? finish the quote:
<[these] types love to denounce modern China as a betrayal of socialism, without considering that it is the failure of the Western left to do successful revolutions in their countries which made it necessary for existing socialist states to adapt to the global conditions of entrenched neo-liberal capitalism. >>2937812>I'm not baiting, I honestly think anyone who uses the word "dengist" is retarded. It's similar to someone saying stalinist in a derogatory mannerI agree and depending on the day I've oscillated between either denying Dengism exists, like you are here, or trolling them back by saying that Marx, Lenin, Mao, and Stalin were all Dengist too (because fundamentally, they are, once you actually read Deng and compare it to what Marx said)
>>2937811> China is *the* capitalist power, rivalled only by the US you look at capitalism as a binary. a switch that can be turned on or off. you need to look at imperialism and military strength. then you see the real asymmetry between china and the USA
the USA has over 800 offshore bases. china has maybe 10. the US has thousands of nukes. China has a couple hundred. the USA is a fotress protected by two oceans and bordered only by weaker subservient countries that are totally dependent on it economically. China is not. the USA has a history of couping dozens of socialist countries across several continents. china does not.
if you only look at "umm do they do the capitalism or not?" then your analysis is going to be very weak, and you will come to the conclusion "umm why hasn't china just blown up the USA yet? it's cuz they're capitalist!!!!" no capitalist countries blow each other up all the time. it's because china is weaker than the USA that it does not pursue a suicidal policy of war with the USA. really the question of whether china is socialist or not should be seen as totally irrelevant and the real goal should be revolutionary defeatism, civil war, and revolution in all the imperial core countries, USA, NATO, 5 eyes, EU, and also their lackeys like Israel.
>>2937815It always comes back to this
dengist
third worldist
tankie
authoritarian
stalinist
commieAnd that's fine if you're an anchor for Foxnews, but if you're supposedly a leftist or god forbid a communist using these terms I think you're pretty much a lunatic, liberal, traitor or all of the above
>>2937817
treatlerism is umm not the issue i was trying to educate anyone about, that's a separate thing. please anon, have mercy, don't derail this thread further than it already is. these people have low attention span.
>>2937812>china is not capitalist but socialist.Simply false. You're going to tell me China has socialist billionaires and socialist stock exchanges and socialist landlords? LMAO
Zero progress has begun towards any type of transition to adoption a socialist mode of production since the day Mao died.
Also by claiming China is socialist, you contradict your own previous post where you quoted He Zhao saying "China can't do socialism because… It just can't okay???"
>This is really not that controversial, but here we areIt is and I'd wager the vast bulk of Marxist scholars today classify China as state capitalism.
>>2937813Calling me slurs isn't an arguement. I accept your concession.
>>2937819>you look at capitalism as a binary.We're past the era of fuedalism. Today you either you have a capitalist mode of production, or a socialist mode of production.
Your arguement is a repeat of the other anons arguement where they posted a quote from He Zhao saying China can't do socialism because the world is too scary o algo to that affect.
Such a weak fucking cop out.
Do you have no faith in the credibility of socialism or Marxist theory at all?
Do you believe the second China does a socialism it will implode and be annexed by the US and NATO?
Of course it will not. It's such a nonsense excuse.
The USA is a major threat but China having a capitalist economy isn't the thing that is keeping China safe. It's China's industrial and military power. These things won't disappear under socialism.
Surprised we have more than one Dengist/Third Worldist active here at once tbh
Say what you want but various site polls have shown you guys are in a minority here, most of us are Comminists
its hilarious how most people who call themselves communists think M-C-M' is communism and its been this way for almost 100 years, and I'm supposed this shit is the real movement? Bakunin won, and its all thanks to MLs
>>2937836>BakuninThe more I read about Bakunin the more I understood the guy was a proto-ancap. If you think Bakunin is true marxism, you are quite retarded.
>18 hours
<not deleted
Whats up with the mods recently?
>>2937841not liking capitalism isnt against the rules
>>2937829>Do you believe the second China does a socialism it will implode and be annexed by the US and NATO? read willam blum's killing hope. yes. the USA and NATO do try to kill socialism wherever it crops up. but that's not actually my main point. my main point is you have no way of interacting with china other than complaining about it from a distance, which is whining. If you were actually capable of doing something about it you would fly over there and do it. complaining about whether china is socialist or not is the equivalent of arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. it's pure philosophy. philosophers interpret the world. the point is to change it. Where do you live? fight for socialism there. only once the fight has been won where you are can you start exporting the revolution. instead you want to outsource a job that you haven't even done locally yet. revolution is a job. it is an actual material task that needs to be completed before it can spread elsewhere. if china is "failing" to be socialist or spread revolution to you, then you have to spread revolution to them. but it has to be real revolution, from the proletariat, not some color revolution mediated by your bourgeois government against their bourgeois government. nothing good ever comes of that.
>>2937836i respect you leftcoms more than the "anti-dengists" who insist deng is some kind of deviation from mao, lenin, marx, and so on. at least you guys have the honesty to admit you think all the major communist figures were traitors to the mythical "real movement" for being realistic, even if that is a stupid opinion, it is way more consistent than smiling when engels says "the transition will be slow" but frowning when deng says it.
>>2937829Was Mao's china "socialist" with an economy of mostly subsistence peasants? peasantry isnt fuedal? Despite what the government was purusing and advancing and organizing, it was a mixed economic system that was still largely fuedal, literally impossible to socialist except in a utopian sense.
China today is also such a mixed system. What matters is the trend towards SOEs, state collectives, etc.
>>2937854The second world were centrally planned doe…
>>2937829>Simply falseNope it's simply true. Have a revolution, communist party wins, install DotP, begin socialist construction = be socialist
>You're going to tell me China has socialist billionaires and socialist stock exchanges and socialist landlords?Yup, soviet union more or less had those things too. They're all subordinated to the communist party, which represents and is mostly composed of the working class
>Zero progress has begun towards any type of transition to adoption a socialist mode of production since the day Mao died.Expect for the 800 million people lifted out of third world poverty, though I imagine those people basically don't exist at all in your eyes. The people's republic of China makes progress towards a full transition towards socialism every day, every day it is busy improving the material conditions, productive forces of the people of China
Also what's with the weird great man theory and veneration surrounding Mao. To me it seems insanely idealist to say the status of socialist progression for a country composed of 100s of millions of people all hinge on the political convictions of one man
>Also by claiming China is socialist, you contradict your own previous post where you quoted He Zhao saying "China can't do socialism because… It just can't okay???"Learn to follow the thread schizo, I haven't quoted anyone
>It is and I'd wager the vast bulk of Marxist scholars today classify China as state capitalism100 million chinese marxists in the cpc disagree, so that wager is immediately lost by you lol. Marxist "scholars" in the west are by and large trotskyists, leftcoms or other kind of retards and their opinion can be discarded
>>2937836And yet, vastly better and more accomplished than any leftcom. What's up with that?
>>2937864>Nope it's simply true. Have a revolution, communist party wins, install DotP, begin socialist construction = be socialistMLs are mentally retarded
>>2937860china still has 5 year plans
>>2937866>Uhhh it's wrong because uhhh it just is!!Lmfao brainlet
>>2937867>Don't matter, all shall be toppled.shall be when? when the chinese do it for you or when you do it yourself?
>>2937868So does India under BJP and every major corporation
>>2937868>china still has 5 year plansJust like most companies.
>>2937872comparing china and india is almost as stupid as comparing china and america tbh. that's the problem with you guys. you never look at specifics. it's all just capitalism with no actual local topography worth noticing. that might be true in the abstract but as i said it leads to braindead analysis and asking the wrong followup questions like "why does this country 2000 miles from me not simply do the socialsm right now"
you have to do the revolution. you seem stuck between "china is evil capitalists just like america" and "china needs to do socialism for me right now" which cannot be the same critique because it amounts to begging a foreign bourgeoisie to do revolution for you
>>2937873companies plan for 1 quarter, and the only question they ask is whether profits will go up. right now the entire "west" (to the extent that such a construct even makes sense) is collectively seething at overproducing commodities, and making the profit rate go down. i wonder if rajani palme dutt had some interesting things to say about this in chapter 3 of fascism and social revolution.
>>2937806>If private property, money, abstract value production, class society, and the state, are abolished prematurelyThat's the thing. You cannot abolish these things out of principle. I asked so many bordigafags what would "true communism" look like and I got no answers. The closest sensible answer was:
<no property whatsoever, everything shared including toilets and toothbrushesThis is why Dengism is an evolution of Marxism because Marxism has theoretical problems stemming from futurist interpretations of Marx. It's blackpilling just how much early Marx contradicts later Marx. Long story short, we ain't ever going beyond private property, money, abstract value production, class society and the state. The best that can be done is when those things evolve to where they are no longer a pain in the ass or people's biology changes so significantly to the point where there are integral psychological barriers preventing capitalist thought. And I really hate to be that guy, but it was thanks to Marx that everyone started looking to Monke era and pointing out:
>look even animals are capitalist because they have private property!!11!I know it's stupid to blame Marx for this, but if it was not for:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/commodity.htmyou would not have retarded nu-Marxists yapping about property being evil, which is Kropotkinite garbage repackaged by bordigafags.
>These myopic and short-sighted “left com”, “ultra-left”, or modern “Maoist” types love to denounce modern China as a betrayal of socialism, without considering that it is the failure of the Western left to do successful revolutions in their countries which made it necessary for existing socialist states to adapt to the global conditions of entrenched neo-liberal capitalism. Agreed. But even without the western left, the evolution of AES countries is to be better at capitalism than capitalist countries. So we would still be having this debate should the west turn communist.
>Those who think that 1.4 billion people, who for 200 years suffered so immensely under vicious colonial rule and brutal capitalist domination, will so quickly forget what their true enemy is, don’t know much about capitalism, colonialism, or people.Don't know what this is alluding to, but Chinese in general are very mercantile so minus the period of the Red Guard domination, China naturally shifts to commodity production as the natural state of things.
Comrade Zhao needs to explain how exactly will Denigst China move towards abolishing capitalism given the theory of capitalist abolition is theoretically wrong. I think higher-ups in the CPC know this, just don't know how to distill this to the masses. The two choices of nationalism in China are either this Dengist CapCom Marxism Evolved(tm) where plebs slave for state-approved billionaires or Leftcom purity spiral a la Cultural Revolution 2.0 where everyone will have to be poor to do away with commodity production.
>Tldr china's unique path made them a political hermaphrodite so classical marxism and liberalism don't apply to it. Dengism is its own thing and will evolve into something requiring new theory of commodities and economic relations. >>2937876>>2937882>Agreed. But even without the western left, the evolution of AES countries is to be better at capitalism than capitalist countries. So we would still be having this debate should the west turn communist.actually at that point the debate would become "the west really is doing the bolshevik revolution 2.0 while the east is still doing dengism so we were right all along"
which i would agree if that were actually happening, but it's not. instead i see suicidal reactionary poilitics in the imperial core.
>>2937882>Dengism is an evolution of Marxism if only Xiaodrich Dengels spoke of this
<Our theory is a theory of evolution, not a dogma to be learned by heart and to be repeated mechanically. The less it is drilled into the Americans from outside and the more they test it with their own experience […] the deeper will it pass into their flesh and blood. When we returned to Germany, in spring 1848, we joined the Democratic Party as the only possible means of getting the ear of the working class; we were the most advanced wing of that party, but still a wing of it. When Marx founded the International, he drew up the General Rules in such a way that all working-class socialists of that period could join it – Proudhonists, Pierre Lerouxists and even the more advanced section of the English Trades Unions; and it was only through this latitude that the International became what it was, the means of gradually dissolving and absorbing all these minor sects, […] Had we from 1864, to 1873 insisted on working together only with those who openly adopted our platform where should we be to-day? I think that all our practice has shown that it is possible to work along with the general movement of the working class at every one of its stages without giving up or hiding our own distinct position and even organisation […]- Friedrich Engels, Letter to Florence Kelley Wischnewetsky, January 27, 1887
<Only through the undervaluation or overvaluation of products is it forcibly brought home to the individual commodity producers what society requires or does not require and in what amounts. But it is precisely this sole regulator that the utopia advocated by Rodbertus among others wishes to abolish. And if we then ask what guarantee we have that necessary quantity and not more of each product will be produced, that we shall not go hungry in regard to corn and meat while we are choked in beet sugar and drowned in potato spirit, that we shall not lack trousers to cover our nakedness while trouser buttons flood us by the million – Rodbertus triumphantly shows us his splendid calculation, according to which the correct certificate has been handed out for every superfluous pound of sugar, for every unsold barrel of spirit, for every unusable trouser button, a calculation which “works out” exactly, and according to which “all claims will be satisfied and the liquidation correctly brought about. […] And now consider the naiveté with which Rodbertus would abolish industrial and commercial crises by means of his utopia. As soon as the production of commodities has assumed world market dimensions, the evening-out between the individual producers who produce for private account and the market for which they produce, which in respect of quantity and quality of demand is more or less unknown to them, is established by means of a storm on the world market, by a commercial crisis. If now competition is to be forbidden to make the individual producers aware, by a rise or fall in prices, how the world market stands, then they are completely blindfolded. To institute the production of commodities in such a fashion that the producers can no longer learn anything about the state of the market for which they are producing – that indeed is a cure for the crisis disease which could make Dr. Eisenbart envious of Rodbertus. - Friedrich Engels, Preface to Poverty of Philosophy, First German Edition, 1885
<To my mind, the so-called “socialist society” is not anything immutable. Like all other social formations, it should be conceived in a state of constant flux and change. Its crucial difference from the present order consists naturally in production organized on the basis of common ownership by the nation of all means of production. To begin this reorganization tomorrow, but performing it gradually, seems to me quite feasible. That our workers are capable of it is borne out by their many producer and consumer cooperatives which, whenever they're not deliberately ruined by the police, are equally well and far more honestly run than the bourgeois stock companies.- Friedrich Engels, Letter to Otto Von Boenigk In Breslau, August 21, 1890
>>2937840>The more I read about Bakunin the more I understood the guy was a proto-ancap. If you think Bakunin is true marxism, you are quite retarded.its you who thinks capitalism is communism bro kek
>>2937874If the job is local revolution it literally doesn’t matter what the analysis of China is, they’re over there, who gives a shit, they’re too pussy to send pla units to help this militia or that militia
>>2937892>its you who thinks capitalism is communism bro kek
<Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?<No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society.
<In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.-Frederick Engels 1847, The Principles of Communism
>>2937908Gradually meaning in 20 years? 200? 2000? 20,000?
>>2937907exactly so why spend another day complaining about a country that is "over there" when the only medium you have to interact with them currently is controlled by the bourgeoisie (the internet)
>>2937911in 1980s Deng said "middle of the next century" which concretely became the 2050 goal but every time this goal is mocked as "a million years"
>>2937911>Please look into this crystal ball and predict the futureYou're actually retarded. Please think about it for 10 seconds and rephrase your question to be less stupid. The answer is quite simple and should be relatively obvious
>>2937887>"the west really is doing the bolshevik revolution 2.0 while the east is still doing dengism so we were right all along">which i would agree if that were actually happening, but it's not. instead i see suicidal reactionary poilitics in the imperial core.This "bolshevik" west era would be suicidal reactionary politics under a new name:
Democratic Socialism.
>>2937916You and Engels should get thrown into a corner thresher by actual proles, smug prick
>>2937920democratic socialism in the USA is not even Menshevism, let alone Bolshevism. it is more like repackaged Rooseveltism
>>2937925Rooseveltian lend lease is the only reason bolshevism survived the onslaught of hitlerism
>>2937922>Kill engelsAnd there we have it, anticommunist faggot
>smug prickNot my fault you're actually a stupid retard kek
>>2937925>Rooseveltismbtw i mean this in both sense. frankie and teddy. teddy because he wanted trust busting (like the succdems in the USA do), and like frankie, because he wanted to weaken revolution through reforms and welfare (like the succdems in the USA do).
>>2937925Agreed, but it would be reactionary in practice. Zohranism would give a breather to the ancient landed gentry and the corporations by staving off revolutionary discontent.
>>2937926Yes we heard the fantasies. How about those KGB transcripts of Zhukov that don't exist? You got those?
>>2937928You won’t even give a ballpark estimate on how long these transformations take yet demand everyone trust you with all political power and to represent their interests, death to you
I like how dengism alwasy gets the most replies on leftypol. Truly the opiate of the masses.
>>2937931Indeed the paradox of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Neither dictatorship, nor the proletariat. You can trust me to represent your interests. I'm from the internet.
>>2937930You literally named yourself after a pirate, a lumpen
>>2937931>You won’t even give a ballpark estimate on how long these transformations take yet demand everyone trust you with all political power and to represent their interests, death to youbro you got two replies, one anon called you a retard, which is just bait, and the other gave you the famous 2050 number, which you ignored. So it seems like you want to ignore actual replies and just do bait banter.
>>2937939That’s not his words but those of Deng, I want HIS answer, I don’t trust Deng, I don’t even know if those are his words, I can’t read Chinese thus can’t interact with direct sources, only secondary and tertiary sources which are inherently untrustworthy
>>2937942asking a random person how long socialist transition will take is like asking a random heavy smoker how long until they get cancer. one can be quite certain of getting cancer, but nobody is sure how long it will take to appear.
>>2937905asian font is a nice toucb
>>2937944That’s not even true because cigarettes aren’t even guaranteed to give you cancer, you might die of emphysema or COPD or not even have adverse health effects. He still demands I, a prole, surrender to his will and trust him with my interests, I will not, he’ll likely be worse for me than my current bosses.
>>2937948Thassalocracy is incompatible with socialism, the ocean is lumpen
>>2937946Thank you Chinanon
>>2937948I hope you fall into a pod of pilot whales who click and scream at you until your brain bleeds out of your ears like they do to orca
>>2937948>sinbad is actually posting sinbad clipswas waiting for this to happen
>>2937931>Pls muh ballparkI asked you to think about it retard.
Obviously the full abolishment of private property and the complete construction of the socialist/communist mode of production is only possible with the full dismantling of imperialism. It is relative, proportional to that because that is what will threaten and dismantle any dotp and socialist construction that it can and reintroduce private property in full
The answer is thus whenever the amerisraeli-NATO empire falls/is dismantled. Trying to make estimates of when that'll be exactly in terms of how many decades or centuries is retarded and impossible and it would be dishonest of me to give that to you
>yet demand everyone trust you with all political power and to represent their interestsI only represent my own interests as a proletarian, I don't demand anyone "trust" me with anything, you anticommunist idealist retard
>You won’t even give a ballpark estimateYou don't even have an estimate or understanding of anything dumdum, why are you trying to lecture anyone on anything lmfao? What estimate could you provide for how long anarchism or whatever dumb larp you believe in will abolish private property?
>>2937954Because there’s no estimate because it’s a binary fucking question, does the law of value exist in your economy or not? There’s none of that dialectics (meaning obfuscation) nonsense. Something either is or isn’t.
>>2937955>Something either is or isn’t.Idealist and undialectical, you are a dummy
>>2937957Dialectics are religious obfuscation, nothing more, you’re pursuing class interests as a labor aristocrat with petit bourgeois aspirations
>>2937961>Dialectics are religious obfuscationNo they're not, they are neither religious nor an obfuscation of anything. Essentialism is retarded
>you’re pursuing class interests as a labor aristocrat with petit bourgeois aspirationsYou don't understand dialectics, marxism or communism. You are an essentialist/idealist. So why are you even using these terms like class interests, when they're utterly meaningless to you?
Just go be an anarchist and talk about communes or whatever and you can leave the discussions about class, social transformation and china to the grownups
>>2937970I can’t even be an anarchist in peace on this site without you shitting it up, you can dish it but can’t take it. Kill yourself Hegelian.
>>2937974I don’t fucking want you, go away
>>2937976I don’t want the law of value or capital, fuck off
>>2937978>You have absolute political power and massive popularity>You have revolutionary powers over the US government>You have control over the masses and means of production
<Your mission:<Explain how you will implement Trve Communism(tm) devoid of the law of value.Please I am very interested.
Please tell me what no bordigafag ever successfully explained.
>>2937973Just don't enter a discussion you know nothing about and demand people explain things in the most retarded and idealist way possible and you won't have that problem. Certainly when you don't even understand the basics and then go act like a little bitch when you get called a retard you need to learn to stfu, especially when you have nothing on offer yourself in terms of alternative supposedly more efficient way (anarchism)
>you can dish it but can’t take itClearly projecting, you are the one who's been bitching and crying since he got Engels quoted at him
>Kill yourself HegelianI accept your unconditional surrender, I hope you learned something
>>2937988There are no means of production in the US to seize because
THEY WERE MOVED TO CHINA, YOU DUMB FUCKING DIGITAL DJINN >>2937992The only thing to learn is proletarians won’t be free until everyone that reads Marx and Engels is in the stomach of a school of hungry orca
>>2937994>I am an anticommunist who hates communismWhy are these faggots even allowed to post here? This guy is basically just quoting Goebbels at this point lmao
>>2937997Marx and Engels literally invented the neoliberal status quo by being fake opposition to justify the US military industrial complex, your form of communism is dogshit that only served to create a false anticolonialism that entrenched colonial relations further. You are liberalism’s greatest soldier.
>>2937993Ok fine
>You have absolute political power and massive popularity in CHINA>You have revolutionary powers over the CHINESE government>You have control over the masses and means of production
<Your mission:<Explain how you will implement Trve Communism(tm) devoid of the law of value in CHINA.Please I am very interested.
Please tell me what no bordigafag ever successfully explained.
>>2938001What should be done then?
What is not the neoliberal status quo?
Just post links or something. I want to know your ideology.
>>2938002You implement communist social relations and expropriate the bourgeois in whole, not in part, you end the use of money and replace it with vouchers for rations
>>2938006I can’t link you something I haven’t written yet djinn
>>2938007>You implement communist social relationsChina already did this.
>expropriate the bourgeois in whole, not in partThey literally did this in the 1960s then realized it lead to a purity spiral and no progress. End result it created bourgeois out of proles.
>you end the use of money and replace it with vouchers Vouchers are money.
>rationsDo you like rationing things?
Or is it more out of necessity?
Thank you for at least writing something.
>>2937974i like you even when you disagree with me because you treat me like a human being, while the rest of this site talks to me like a dog even when they agree
>>2938001>In reality this land is wilting under the Jewish-Marxist rule of force, which will stop at no means to maintain itself in power. The pretended freedom and right of self-determination among the nationalities constituting the Soviet Union turns out in fact to be a process of enslavement and extirpation of those nationalities themselves. The pretended liberation of colonial and semi-colonial peoples through the international proletariat is, when looked at in its true light, a blood-stained and ruthless example of Soviet Imperialism of the worst kindYeah yeah Joseph, we get it. You hate communism
>>2938016They didn’t implement communist social relations, people go to work and produce surplus value for capitalists, including the SOEs, that’s not to mention the millions of small businesses that are allowed to exist. Vouchers aren’t money, ration tickets aren’t money, you can’t use ration tickets to make more ration tickets the way money makes money. The US in WWII was closer to communism than literally any existing economy right now.
>>2938022Things Mao also said but because the China Americo side won the Cold war you jump on their cock and pretend the whole split didn’t happen
>>2937865>capitalist society is more developed and does more things than the one thats yet to be born out of it, whats up with that? check mate commiesMLs are genuinely the biggest stooges of capital on earth
>>2938027>The US in WWII was closer to communism than literally any existing economy right now.>They didn’t implement communist social relations>Surplus valueYou do know what there was still surplus value generated for US capitalists in WW2, it was just fixed by the state, right?
Interesting also, how "trve communism" was implemented as an emergency measure almost like a body being sick and starting a fever.
>Vouchers aren't money>Can't make more ration ticketsSo you have a problem with money printing then? Using vouchers as mediums of exchange and paying taxes in them is what makes them money.
>>2938028He didn't say that tho, you're confusing his rejection of revisionism and social imperialism with a rejection of marxism leninism (communism)
>>2938038He literally called the Soviet Union “a dictatorship of the Hitlerite variety”, that’s a stronger condemnation than the Nazi one of Bolshevism
>>2938029>If I just keep calling it capitalism, that's kind of like an argument right? No dumdum, that's an assertion lmfao. anti-communists are literally the dumbest mfers on earth I swear
>>2938036Maybe you’re right and communism can only be a wartime measure and I’ll have to work in my shitty steel factory until my body gives out. Fuck this, I’m gonna drown myself in drugs and comic books.
>>2938040You’re literally the anti communist by insisting its material basis isn’t there and you need more productive forces when Kropotkin literally mathematically proved we had enough surplus 100 years ago
>>2938039That was just a bit of sinosplit banter and an interjection at some meeting, not an official polemic. Again also, he's talking about the post stalin revisionist era, Goebbels (and you) is talking about stalin and lenin communist era
>>2938048Stalin and Lenin created the material conditions for revisionism and eventually the dissolution of the entire warsaw pact. Where does the buck stop?
>>2938044>You’re literally the anti communist by insisting its material basis isn’t thereHoly fuck you are dumb dude, nobody said the material basis isn't there. What I said is that it is retarded in its transition to socialist mop by imperialism/will only transition after imperialism is dealt with
>Kropotkin literally mathematically provedRetarded nonsense
>>2938052There’s no point debating you because you’re going to insist any data that contradicts your ideology is either retarded or false
>there is no alternative to M-C-M' and if you disagree you are an anarchist and I will kill once I get in power
who says this? a chud or the average so called "marxist-leninist"?
the higher effort the post, the lower effort the replies, it seems
>>2938049The buck stops at those directly responsible, not at people who supposedly set conditions in place for other people to do some shit in the future. Regardless I am personally not that invested in debates about revisionism, always seemed more political than theoretical to me. Regardless it is not the same kind of thing Goebbels and you are talking about
>>2937993>the socialist country seized the means of production from the capitalist countryBEHOLD! REVOLUTION!
>>2938061So political forms and structures and incentive structures within them don’t actually matter, awesome material analysis
>>2938054You can't "mathematically prove" when productive forces are high enough for a transition into a new social order, because there is no such fixed point, it is a relative condition
I am perfectly willing to accept data that goes against my previously held convictions. Data doesn't contradict ideology though
>>2938065I didn't say that. You can only blame individuals so much, even for the things that happen in their lifetimes. Blaming them for other people's actions after their deaths is retarded
Why do you even care about materialist analysis? You are an idealist/anticommunist
>>2938040M-C-M' will never be socialism bro, sorry
>>2938073A cat can be either black or white, as long as it catches mice :) Sorry bud
>>2938075A dog ain't no cat mate.
>>2938042Don't be too hard on yourself fren. I wish I could help you somehow.
>>2937819>the USA has over 800 offshore bases. china has maybe 10. the US has thousands of nukes. China has a couple hundred. the USA is a fotress protected by two oceans and bordered only by weaker subservient countries that are totally dependent on it economically. China is not.so the PRC is actually bitchmade? dengoids here told me all that trademaxxing was justified because it was the most powerful nation-state on earth, must have been wumao cope, thanks for giving me the truth
>>2938077We're talking about cats tho, as they are the ones who catch mice, not dogs
>>2938073>Money - Commodity - More Moneycommodity production became so automated that scarcity has to be artificial and surplus destroyed for the capitalist to make any profit
M and M' were altered after Nixon abolished the gold standard in 1971, and made the world reserve currency an infinitely printable fiat currency controlled by 1 empire
It is not that marx and engels didn't see this coming but rather that many marxists refuse to see that anything has changed since marx's death in 1883
this is why i said earlier that people are simply looking at capitalism as a switch that can be flipped off at will and not at the actual evolving structure of society over time
>>2938080>so the PRC can't actually just destroy the USA and establish socialism worldwideyes that is what we told you.
>>2938080>dengoids here told me all that trademaxxing was justified because it was the most powerful nation-state on earthHow are people always so arrogantly wrong about the positions of others? Especially when it comes to this topic.
Materialist explanation?
>>2938080> dengoids here told me all that trademaxxing was justified because it was the most powerful nation-state on earth,when did anyone say this, specifically the highlighted part, not the first part
>>2938089>How are people always so arrogantly wrong about the positions of others? Especially when it comes to this topic. trolls just make up what you think as you go along so you have to constantly waste your effort restating your basic ideas and never go any deeper
>>2938086so all they can do is be partners and make line go up together forever, good to know
>>2938094unless the imperial core proletariat has a revolution, and stops waiting on the PRC to do it for them. revolution is the one job you can't outsource to china. sorry!
>>2938094>Why won't china do all the hard work for meeee???It's not their problem buddy, they already have enough on their plate dealing with their own shit. It's up to you
communist society is when you can do nothing but coexist and sell your labor force to capitalists, disagree? CIA anarchist
>>2938124is any of that supposed to be progressive? all of those things cemented capitalist rule over society with extra layers of state management added onto it in an effort to countervail the falling rate of profit
>>2938126Yeah bro when he says ww2 happened or marx having died he's talking about progressive events
jesus christ man
>>2938126>cemented capitalist rule over societyit reinforced an increasingly brittle core with a thin layer of cope. you are blackpilling about this
>>2938129You can literally just move cores around, it moved from the Dutch, to the British, to the Americans, and China will be the new core
>>2938124How are you supposed to have a proletarian revolution when all the factories are in China and everyone is a precarious service worker?
>>2938124claim number 1: china is socialist society
claim number 2: china cant do anything but coexist with capitalists and sell their labor power to them
conclusion: socialist society is when you peacefully coexist with capitalists and sell your labor power to them
It really comes down to whether or not you believe Capital can be bent to human political whims, my bet is on the side that it can’t, if capital exists in your polity, you’ve already lost, given in to its logic
>>2938134There is a limit on that process as already established. The rate of profit. There will come a point where capitalism runs out of places to outsource capital to, and it can no longer conceal its tendency to destroy abundance in the name of keeping up prices.
>>2938137you are not seriously making those claims and neither am i. you are just saying that is what i'm saying. that is lazy. do better.
>>2938138>let me drop a new goalpost instead of replyingeffortless cretin
>>2938142That’s not a goalpost shift as that’s been the goalpost the whole time
>>2938139The rate of profit is never zero and you can always destroy capital, it’s a tendency to fall, it isn’t absolute the way gravity or entropy are
>>2938141so you disagree china is a socialist society or that they cant do anything but peaceful coexistence and trade with capitalists powers?
>>2938147>>2938143>>2938144i am fully convinced you are trolling
>>2938151im the anon above you, im not trolling, idk about the other guy
>>2938151I might be annoying and abrasive but I’m not trolling, I don’t see how MLs and social democrats are actually different when they both fundamentally agree that capital can be subordinated and made to serve the interests of the state or the proletariat while still operating
>>2938154>im the anon above you, im not trolling, idk about the other guyok
>>2938147>so you disagree china is a socialist society or that they cant do anything but peaceful coexistence and trade with capitalists powers?i think china is state capitalist but i dont think the kind of capitalism/imperialism the US and china are doing are equal. i think there are important material differences that create a hierarchy of priority. furthermore I think proletarians of all countries should unite, but before they can unite, they must defeat their "own" governments. complaining about a government far away being too capitalist while not really talking about your own is basically premature socialist patriotism which is a problem. You can only be patriotic after DOTP is established and you have a government capable of spreading revolution that isn't bourgeois.
>>2938159You don’t get that China and the US would need to be overthrown simultaneously with cross border worker organizations, there is no US consumer market that endlessly distracts and coopts all it’s opposition without the Chinese manufacturing that goes from them, to Walmart, to your house, then the pacific garbage patch. They’re two halves of the same whole.
>>2938160ok well i hope that happens. until then i look at what the prevailing conditions are and operate within them because i am just one person and so are you
>>2938162You can stop doing that any time you want to, it’s just difficult and uncomfortable
>>2937402Fun fact: one of the stars on the Chinese flag represents the national bourgeoisie that helped the PRC come into being and fight off the Japanese.
That said, Dengism is not retarded. Is it flawed? Yes. Are there plenty of people sidelined by development of productive forces? Yes. Do I find their lack of support to the Palestinian resistance disturbing? Yes. Are there opportunists and capitalist roaders? Also yes. Should we unapologetically confront mistakes of the PRC when they let such trends dictate their orientation towards the oppressed of the world? Also yes.
The fact remains that the PRC has more soft power than the Soviet Union could ever dream of via Belt and Road Initiative and the scale up now is due to Deng's reforms. Attributing the success of modern PRC industrialization to Mao might as well have you attribute the success of Communist development to feudal development 1500 years ago. Mao may have been a legendary political and military leader, but he was not an industrialist or a scientist.
Should the fear of Mao's ghost be instilled into party members who are enjoying themselves too much at the expense of working class people? Sure. But you're not going to have me toss the baby out with the bathwater all of their successes they have now to the benefit of imperialist forces who are seeking regime change and another century of humiliation.
>>2938165how does one operate outside of prevailing conditions?
>>2938167Through revolutionary suicide
>>2938159>i think china is state capitalist but i dont think the kind of capitalism/imperialism the US and china are doing are equalthe reason why chinese capitalists can do a different, less barbaric type or capitalism is because their number 1 trading partner does the other kind for them
>complaining about a government far away being too capitalist capitalists goverments all over the world are all collaborators in the same barbarism, their physical location is irrelevant, im from a thirdie shithole and chinese ships come here from the literal other side of the world to pillage resouerces from the sea so they can keep making line go up, but I'm the bad guy just because I dont want to call that kind of behaviour "socialism"?
If I was a leftypol mod, I would have moved this thread to
>>>/lgbt/ already.
>>2938193>stupid homosexual commies, amirite fellow trademaxxers?why are MLs like this?
btw sinbad is not only amerikkkan i.e. spiritually bourgeois (and israeli) but also actually petite bourgeois, it kind of explains why the confirmed D$A adjacent socdem mods coddle him so much
>>2938170> im from a thirdie shithole and chinese ships come here from the literal other side of the world to pillage resouerces from the sea so they can keep making line go upwhich one is that. why do all the actual thirdworlders on this web site speak english and use trumptard phrases like "thirdie shithole" to describe themselves? all in the name of slandering america's enemies as equally capitalist and imperialist as america! weird!
>>2938208Because I said
>>>/420/ nobody would take me seriously. Arguably, it is the better option of the two.
>>2938227I can neither confirm nor deny this statement.
If you cut a dengist open, you will see that their insides are already rotten.
>>2938279>which one is that.its in latam, you dont need more information, officer
> "thirdie shithole" to describe themselves? I used it to describe my country, not myself, its what happens when you are not nationalist-brained, sorry I guess
>all in the name of slandering america's enemiesyou mean one their biggest trading partners, american capitalists antagonize other capitalists sometimes, its what how the entire operation works, doesnt make them less or more capitalist
also saying a capitalist country is capitalist is not slander
if anyone does any slandering, its people who call nationalism and social-democracy communism, you are making socialism sound like shit, its hilarious when leftists think the CIA is the entire reason social-democrats lose elections here in latam, I bet its mostly american zohran dickriders who say that here
The USSR also said trve socialism was a generation away. Fusion and socialism are always 30 years away.
>>2938159>china is state capitalistToo many small businesses for that.
>>2937932At times I report people (mostly bordifags and leftcoms who are honestly more bad faith than nazi-flag /pol/fags) and mods just let them be. They need to fuck a thread up in a way so severe it'd be embarrasing for the moderation to leave it be, but they'll otherwise always turn a blind eye. I'm more likely to be banned for this post.
I really don't get it personally, it's one of the things that make me think the whole website has been co-opted and the whole bordigamania in leftist spaces is a psyop because the entire thing boils down to anti AES and anti-imperialist states propaganda but in leftist terminology.
>>2938442rent free roflmao
>>2938444The sadistic glee is so consistent.
>>2938448yes we leftcoms distinguish ourselves from muh heckin wholesome Marxist-Leninists and Multipolaristas because of our cold and impersonal cruelty
>bump locked
kwab, the MLib wokemob cant handle banter
>>2938512it's nothing but banter, posts of significant effort ITT got ignored or just shit on with low effort bait.
>>2938769thinking you can go back to it is. read the rest of the post … oh wait, reading is technology. never mind. practice what you preach and hit yourself on the head until you become illiterate.
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