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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Before you call me a pseud for not knowing this, I'm a marxist primarily because I saw communism as the extension of Rousseau's social-contract and more broadly as an extension of republicanism unto the economic sphere when I started getting interested in political philosophy. I decided to read the Capital and agreed with Marx on his critique.
That said, I don't really see how Marx is a philosopher in any meaningful way. I've read some marxist "philosophers" and Hegel and I don't understand shit. Hence, my questions are essentially :

>wtf does Marx mean by "dialectic" and how is it a method you can analyze things by ?

I've read an intro to Hegel book and it presented the dialectic as Humanity's self-consciousness (Spirit) development towards its collective self-recognition in a rational order, not something you could abstract and apply to any object (unlike the syllogism for instance).

>as an extension of the prior question, what is dialectical materialism ?


>how does Marx's concept of alienation makes sense with the Capital economic analysis


>How is the frankfurt school marxist ?

>>2952748
I'll take a stab at it.

>wtf does Marx mean by "dialectic" and how is it a method you can analyze things by ?

I see it as referring to things moving, changing in a back-and-forth manner. It comes out of Greek logic about how opposed things interact, and it's through the interaction that the whole relationship evolves or transforms. So in Marxism you get socialism, communism emerging out of a dialectic between social classes that is playing out in history. The bourgeoisie actually created the proletariat and class struggle points to the abolition of class society when the proletariat overthrows the rule of the bourgeoisie by eliminating the historical conditions that produced the proletariat in the first place and which sustains it as a class, if you define the proletariat as a class that has nothing to sell but its labor power in some relationship of economic exploitation. It's inherently "contradictory" like that, but something being contradictory does not make it "false." People tend to hear Marxists say "contradictory" and think it's like some logical error but Marxists are in fact trying to refer to something that is contradictory, unstable and in some state of change.

>as an extension of the prior question, what is dialectical materialism ?

This was a kind of codified Official™ version / doctrine that was taught in the Soviet Union.

>how does Marx's concept of alienation makes sense with the Capital economic analysis

I think that's a kind of "splitting off" between people and the products of collective labor. Like you get a job because it's something you pick up to pay the bills, and it could be anyone that will hire you, and then when you go to the store you see the products that is produced by humans on the whole staring back at you as something belonging to somebody else. The relationship here is external but "the stuff" was produced by a social process which we're taking part in, and that's also a contradictory relationship. How that ties into the economic analysis, a lot of times what Marx 101 reading groups will do is take something on the table like a coffee cop, and ask people okay, where did this coffee cup come from, where did the coffee in the cup come from, who produced it and where and how under what conditions, and then how did it come together in the form it is and then arrive on the table.

>How is the frankfurt school marxist ?

Those guys were engaged in a critical theory of society and ideology which is indebted to Marxism, but some communists don't like it because they applied a critical method to socialism and socialists back then, socialist governments like the Soviet Union, stuff like that. Or viewing socialism as contradictory as well or capable of reproducing forms of domination or ideological enslavement and relationships of economic exploitation.

>>2952748
I wanna do dialectal ANALysis with you, if you know what I mean

>Bolshie shows up in bar to kill all hipsters
<Class hatred wavers when seeing a beautiful petit-bourgeois woman, tries to seduce her
>Petit-bourgeois woman betrays him
Pop quiz: Using dialectical analysis, describe what went wrong here

Marx didn’t engage in philosophy, he debunked it and “philosophy” has been over since Marx turned Hegel on his head

File: 1794434040687-3.png (188.38 KB, 602x452, 1543439901901.png)

>pseud
Not at all. A pseud is someone who postures knowledge which they don't possess. Your humility is therefore "wise" (e.g. as in the case that Socrates was wise, but ignorant. He knew nothing, yet was still inquisitive). As for the Social Contract, Rousseau's Republic is that which is reminiscent of Plato's description of good and bad regimes. Plato distinguishes between constitutions (e.g. monarchy, oligarchy and democracy), but then further divides them between their lawful nature – the "law" in this case being the founding constitution of a polity. The Rousseauean question is that which concerns the spirit and letter of the law. In Plato's time, the Athenian constitution (like the Roman Twelve Tables) is literally carved into stone, like Moses' tablets (which incidentally, he "breaks"). The letter of the law by the terms of a long parliament (e.g. constant revision) displays an outpacing of the letter over spirit. What I find grounding in Rousseau is an emphasis on the General Will (say, over the written contract, in the Lockean case). How thus may we discern the viability of a social contract? Please let me know what you think. As it is written by Roman jurists, tyranny is the impression of law, over order. Crime becomes legal by statute, etc. Would you therefore say that in the first case, the normalisation of vice and crime, by its legal permission (e.g. lenient sentences) is the precept of a broken social contract? Like Aristotle declared, poverty is the parent of crime and revolution – so he sought to remedy this by wealth equality (Aristotle directly promotes wealth redistribution so as to enlarge the middle class; bourgeois socialism). I see Rousseau also provide concern for wealth inequality. Would you then say that tyranny (e.g. unlawfulness) is constituted by (i) wealth inequality, (ii) crime and (iii) the martyrdom of the lawful? The question is then, is Communism a Republic? According to Dostoevsky, it is a tyranny, since it inverts the law, and we could also say that its Bureaucracy is only an enforcement of wealth inequality. The state becomes the capitalist. We see the permission of crime from early Communist figures like Robert Owen, and even today, where many Communists excuse violent crime but seek to punish Orwellian "thought-crimes".
>I decided to read the Capital and agreed with Marx on his critique.
I would also recommend bourgeois political economy like Adam Smith, who is also immanently anti-capitalist by his analysis. I would also suggest Smith is the father of modern socialism, as I relate here: >>2863918
>I don't really see how Marx is a philosopher
Marx never thought of himself as a philosopher, and if anything, an anti-philosopher, as seen in his "Theses on Feuerbach" (1845). He sees that the philosopher thinks, rather than acts, so is ineffectual.
>dialectic
As it is related by Diogenes Laertus, Plato is the "inventor" of dialectic, which is a type of logic, described by Aristotle (t. Prior Analytics) as the assortment of affirmative and negative propositions into a final understanding. This differs from "demonstration" which is affirmative only. In contemporary understanding, dialectic is algorithmic (e.g. the procession of yes/no statements into a final operation). Plato also describes the Socratic Method as dialectical in this manner. With Hegel, his critique of Plato is that Plato is too negative. Hegel also uses the syllogism and sees it as the basis of his logic, whereby the Universal relates to a Particular, to an Singular result (U-P-S). The standard logical syllogism Hegel refers to as "external syllogism". Effectively, in Marx's analysis, we can see the syllogism employed in the Introduction to the Grundrisse, where within the chain, each part is self-related to the other (e.g. supply/demand are seen to both have a medium identity and immediate identity in one another). In Capital, Marx thus shows how the different economic terms self-relate into a "procees" rather than a "thing". A becoming, rather than a being. In this logical structure, Marx thus identifies "contradictions" immanent to its structure which then explain the cause of phenomena, like monetary crises or exploitation. Marx's economic critique is an attempt to give a "logic" to the system of capitalism. Dialectic is the logical method.
>dialectical materialism
Marx never used this term, since Marx rejected metaphysics (e.g. ontology), but presumed materialism; e.g. where everything is in total flux, or "becoming", rather than "being". The problem for materialists however is that "matter" to be so presupposed is itself a "being". So, materialists believe in the being of non-being, non-empirically; e.g. rationally, like Heraclitus, who in his own fragments, ultimately turned toward the Logos as a stabilising principle, or what becomes Plato's Dyad. Plato saw matter as "becoming", but only by negation of being.
>concept of alienation
Alienation to Marx is described as the way in which labour is estranged; e.g. dispossessed, by its objectification. First in private peoperty, where man has identity in a thing outside of himself, then in commodities, whereby the exchange of private property means that even property is estranged from itself; e.g. by self-relation. Marx gives an account of this in Capital Vol. 1, Chapter 1, Section 4, on the Fetiishism of Commodities (1867), which follows earlier work, such as "Comments on James Mill" (1844) and his 1844 Manuscripts. As opposed to private property, Marx conceives of "True" and "Human" property wherein the individuality of its producer is conserved within the thing itself, rather than lost to its objectivity. Marx further describes his utopian society in "Critique of the Gotha Programme" (1875). Marx's project then is the abolition of private property, such as he heralds in his Communist Manifesto (1848).
>Frankfurt School
The Frankfurt School described themselves as Marxists without a party, so were mostly disgruntled intellectuals. The emphasis on the purely theoretical is a perversion of a so-called "Orthodox Marxism" or a Marxism-Leninism. Frankfurt School known as "Western Marxists".

I'm not some super duper Hegelian, I've just read some Lecture on history of philosophy by Hegel.

Things: you, apple, etc - called finite. It is that they have a bound. If you say "I", there need be something not you. Contrary to infinite things, unbounded.

You can use old Skeptics to show that any finite thing is contradictionary, there is a number of methods they developed. You can show red is not red, etc. Idk, may be they will ask you: ok, we change light frequency slightly, is it still red?

Then you can stop thinking.. conclude, nothing is true. But you can also make Skeptics a step in your logic. If red = !red => do_something..

An infinite thing, called "shitty" infinity can be also false. 1, 2 ,3 … inf, going from A to B, from B to A, etc forever. When you say: I will call this red today, the next time I call it differently.. that is "shitty" inf. You just do this infinite loop, that is it.

But an infinity such that something returns back with new knowledge, is not just going back to the same place. You can't contradict this by using Skeptics, it is true infinite. It will be movement of idea of color, etc. do_something, I do not recall, but it is called speculative step? You get something positive with it, new content.

Something like this.

>>2952833
Am I the only one who didn't understand anything from this wall of text and sees it as simply pseudo-intellectual?

>>2952885
outside of the weird frankfurt school point it's correct but explained in possibly the worst way i've ever read

>>2952850
I do not know if I need to say this, but that is what I think is dialectics. 1. skepticism 2. speculative thought, positive. In science, not always, but first you get data to contradict the model. Then you speculate new model. But here to "think it dialectically", you need to assume, before you get new data, that the model is contradictionary?! I Hope I'm not making it more confusing..



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