/leftypol_archive/ - leftypol archive

>>555304
Are you aware of the crimes of the Ukrainian government? Are you aware of the provocations NATO did to incite the invasion? It's hard to blame Russia when Russia has been trying for peace and stability for 8 straight years while the Ukrainian government commited crimes against humanity. Where was your bleeding heart during those 8 years???

Above all, THERE IS NO WORKING CLASS FOR ITSELF. Neither in Russia nor Ukraine (except maybe Lugansk and Donesk). So supporting the working class or whatever bullshit you conjure is pure idealistic garbage (not idealist, idealistic).

It's literally "thoughts and prayers" tier. You don't give a fuck about the affected. You only want everyone to hold hands and sing kumbaya. Unfortunately the real world is nothing like your liberal fantasy world and shit fucking sucks and is complicated as hell. There is no working class to sing kumbaya for itself.

Exit your fantasy world and enter reality.

>>555374
>>555374
"Leftists should support ukrainian people" is what I would expect from a liberal to continue with, "that's why we must support NATO and sanctions"

OUT

>>555372
>but one of these sides represents the better outcome and one of them represents the worse, however it may be
I agree, and I've said multiple times that barring a collapse of the Russian state which favours the Russian communists, a Russian victory in Ukraine is the best possible outcome. However I don't think that this requires us to approve of the invasion per say, and certainly not to voice such approval in public.
>>555373
>he never went as far as supporting the Kaiser but he certainly used the fact that germany was winning to further his own interests
Yes, because Lenin understood the distinction between tactics and strategy. He would denounce the Kaiser and lend every possible effort to the cause of revolutionary defeatism in both Germany and Russia, and he would do so while taking the Kaiser's money and train rides.

>>555365
I like to be conservative in guessing how many users of a particular site are evil. Counting lurkers, it's possible the Kremloids are a sizable, vocal minority. Who knows what their motivations are, not to imply they're capable of conscious thought.

>>555383
I don't at all disagree, my hope is that when shit hits the fan the Russian commies kick him out and replace him with a Lenin. Mensheviks once dominated the Russian socialist movement.

(this doesn't mean rooting for NATO though, the right move is to stoke antiwar sentiment on both sides)

>>555133 why are there Russian porn stars singing in green a screen background video

>>555394
how are we even doing that though? Like, having a "Good" opinion and actually doing anything is two different things.

>>555394
>the right move is to stoke antiwar sentiment on both sides
So back to status quo, so NATO.

>>555397
Tell me how stoking anti-NATO sentiment in NATO countries helps NATO.

>>804000
pure fucking lib projection.

>>555387
NATO nazi puppets getting fucked. Russia invaded ukraine a few days ago.

>>555361
people in general are poorly trained for nuance. ultimately, one instinctively wants either russia or ukraine to 'win', or perhaps russia or NATO to win, depending on one's framing of the question.

one can come up with all sorts of reasons and rationales for picking a side, but ultimately the only way to not have one is to not care at all, or perhaps to want everyone to lose.

>>555389
tbh i'm constantly disappointed by the ratio of webms of shit exploding and maps that slowly get redder to wordy self-justification, doomerism, and militaristic wank-fantasy.

>>804000
this would be a very interesting explanation if true.

next thread????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

>>555380
WGYYXRNV
YOU SUBHUMAN UYGHUR DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND YOU ARE A FUCKIGN AGRESSOR MURDERER YOU PIECE OF FUKGAIPJT FIGLTYJH
YOU A RE A SUBHUMAN SUBHUMAN SUBHUMAN
WOW WOW WOW NATO BAD SO NUKE NATO STATES
LETS LET FUCKING PSYCHO MURDERERS OF CHECHNYA GO INTO URBAN CENTERS
LETS USE PHJSOPHORUS BOMSB
LETS FUCKING DEMAND PEOPLE TO TAKE OUT THERIR OWN GOVERNMENT JUST SO YOU WOULD STOP COKMITING WAR CRIMES ON THEM
BECAUSE NATO IS PURE EVIL AND ANYTHIGN AGAINST IT IS PURE GOOD
EVEN WHILE THE HUMAN FILTH PUTIN SENDS MURDERERS TO STOMP OUT REAL SOCIALISTS REVOLUTIONS IN CSTO STATES
WHILE SUPPORTING MURDERERS LIKE KADYROV WHO ARE NO BETTER THAN COLOMBIAN REGIME
ALL BECAUSE YOU LISTENED TO AN AUTISTIC GINGER RETARD WHO READ OUTDATED SHITTY SOVIET PAMPHLETS AND NEVER READ A BOOK IN HIS LIFE SAID DUGHH AZOV NADZIES XDDDD
BECAUSE NATO IS BIG EMPIRE AND RUSSIA IS A SMOL WANNA BE EMPIRE
BECASUE BIG EMPIRE BAD
FUCK YOU RETARD
KILL YOURSELF

>>555315
Thank you for your sloganeering anon. You're doing god's work.

See the problem is the Putinoids don't get that Ukranians that side with NATO are worthy victims and those who side against it are warlike barbarians.

Ugh

>>555236
Can you fucking shut up? Their fucking balance economy has shifted towards China for years, they will be doing just fine. Of course not better with western markets, but fuck off with that rhetoric.

>>555393
I honestly could give a shit less because I know I’m not personally responsible for the death of both Russians and Ukrainians, nor am I responsible for fascist NATO sending weapons and egging this conflict on. Therefore I’m content in the fact that I can give a shit less about this conflict cuz it has nothing to do with my general interest as a working class person. As an individual I have zero power in getting rid of NATO and I’m not liberal enough to believe I can “make a difference”. I’m not a zoomer brain either who spends his time on twitter debates and having le takes. I spend my time here only for shitposting, memeing and discussion. This pathetic NEET filled autistic sperg of a website is not praxis and to think it means anything is one big cope. Peace.

>>555404
>REAL SOCIALISTS REVOLUTIONS
where

>>804000
>Like every U.S. soldier I know criticized our government, and our military command structure publicly over the horrifically planned and executed evacuation from the AO of Afghanistan.
Hahahhahahahahhahahah
Not the inavsion. Not the current genocide Biden is doing. Not the civilian killings. Not the drone program. Not the rapes. Not the torture. Not the installation of an american puppet. Not the refugee crisis. Not the flattening of cities. The true crime was how quickly they pulled out.
Hahahahahahahaha americans are truly psychopathic.

>>555070
>Putin bootlickers seething
Wow, I didn't expect such a sperg out. I get that people a furious at the Ukrop government for all of its new crimes since the war started, but remember this is not the USSR "liberating" Cuckraine. How many times does it need to be proven that Putin is bourgeios scum like the rest?

>Obsessing over Trosky out of nowhere
LOL rentfree

>>804000
I don't know, most phrases in Russian here are Russians telling putinoids to shut the fuck up.

>>555404
Мне нравится этот шизофреник

>>555412
How did you get that from what I wrote? Americans dont get to have an opinon. They don't get to protest about anything. Their failure to build an anti-imperialist left, let alone a communist left, is what led to the genocide of the international working class. Their failure is directly responsible for this conflict too.

If you're american, shut the fuck up and apologize to Russians and Ukranians.

>>555409
If this site is trash due to its popularity then humanity is fucked because this is a somewhat fringe place. Not giving a shit about anything isn't enlightened it's just a cope. Hiding behind layers of irony ("just shitposting") is Rick and Morty tier and you'd be better off doing something else.

>>555392
Valid. But personally, I’m not ashamed to say that I support Russia because, as a person of Indian ancestry, I know which side in the Russia-Ukraine conflict thinks of themselves more like the people that subjugated the subcontinent and which side thinks of themselves more like people like me.

>>555418
becoming too invested in something you cannot control is also rick and morty tier. the answer, for once, lies in the middle. in a buddhist kind of way or something, not in a centrist kind of way.

>>555419
>I know which side in the Russia-Ukraine conflict thinks of themselves more like the people that subjugated the subcontinent and which side thinks of themselves more like people like me.
I understand the sentiment, but I'm thinking tactically in terms of what best maximizes the chance for Western comrades to turn the prevailing opinions against NATO. When everybody is upset that Ukraine is getting torn apart by foreign powers, the quickest way to win their support is to denounce all foreign intervention, which in the West amounts to a denunciation of NATO. I'm also thinking of the best way for Russian communists to leverage the internal contradictions created by this war to the benefit of their movement. When this shit inevitably immiserates the Russian people, any "communist" supported the bourgeois warmongers will not be left in a strong political position.

>>555417
>he was asleep for all of 2020
an angry mob of burgers literally tried to storm the white house during the george floyd protests lmao

>>555421
True. I became worked up about Kremlin sympathizers when I realized rightoids are sympathetic to Putin taking bites out of the West. To see leftists being this way is more of an absurdity than anything else.

>>555322
Back then the NSDAP was also considered just a paper tiger.

>>555427
I see "When Soviet SOCIALISM imploded (1991)," I don't read anymore.

>>555399
they arent nuanced opinions and reasonable arguments, theyre mental acrobatics about how rooting for putin is justified and how he's better than NATO and not imperialist but also believing this doesnt count as actually supporting putin because it doesnt count as support if you only support him on the condition that it will ensure your very particular vision of a future revolution that involves like a thousand different unrelated and indeterminable variables, but lets just pretend that putin accomplishing his revanchist goals in a limited war is worth cheering on because you have a hunch it will turn out better down the line

all these retards act like leninists, as if what didnt make lenin & the bolsheviks the last good socialists standing after the outbreak of ww1 is that they REFUSED TO TAKE A SIDE. granted the difference is most people here are westerners choosing the side of their countrys enemy which is at least admirable, but this isnt afghanistan or vietnam where you can correctly support the enemy and hope the empire bleeds out in a quagmire, this is probably the closest thing you can get to direct contemporary inter-imperial conflict without a nuclear war. yes, in this case its between a much weaker regional imperial power trying to retain what little influence it has in a fight against the global hegemon, so its tempting to choose the global underdog, but the global underdog is still the regional imperialist. its not unlike saying you support apartheid south africa because while theyre not perfect theyre a bulwark against western hegemons imposing sanctions on them

my personal hope is that on one hand russia gets bogged down in ukraine & it creates a crisis for the russian bloc of eastern european and central asian countries. hopefully the russian communist party and working class in general will be rejuvenated by this and take advantage of the economic chaos and the inevitable decline in putins domestic support and legitemacy.

on the other hand i hope that the economic upset caused by sanctions on russia has major economic repercussions in the west, and hastens the decline of the US to an extent that the global south can recognize such decline and take advantage of it, with everywhere from latin america to africa to asia being given some room to test the water on taking bolder moves than they could in previous years when the US was not so occupied. if the US tried another war of intervention in such a weakened state it would probably be another nail in the coffin of its total hegemony.

of course this is all speculation as well, but a far weakened and isolated russia does not necessarily equal the west thriving or benefitting. russia & its regional sphere are a very important piece of the global economic puzzle, and if that link breaks due to military defeat & domestic chaos, nobody will come out unscathed

US warhawks want another cold war, they want proxy wars to pour money into, they dont want putin to blow his load on ukraine and then be couped for unpopularity and open up a much more politically and economically unpredictable situation

>>555427
Despite the systematic campaign of lies by the bourgeois disinformation media, it is clear that the conflict in Ukraine is part of a secular war of aggression of Western imperialism against Russia and China, which began in 1918 with the US military invasion against the Russian Revolution, which was defeated by the Red Army in Siberia.

based and history pilled

>>555427
This cockshott guy keeps some good company. Very smart people. We should let him design the economy.

>>555431
I presume you are being sarcastic ?

>>555432
I'm not.

>>555427
>as President Eisenhower had defined the supreme objectives of U.S. foreign policy in 1961, in the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP): a surprise nuclear attack on the urban centers and industrial targets of Russia and China.
Wtf… these people are insane.

>>555433
Oh really ? Are you aware of his bad opinions about LGBT and he literally thinks that "unequal exchange" cannot happen ?
His "proposals" are just
1) Utopian socialist talking points
2) Apply big computers. I believe that if a revolutionary party comes to power they can do it themselves without needing Mr Dickblast reactionary utopian drivels.

>>555417
Yeah, my parents are indian. My partner’s parents fled antisemites from ukraine. I won’t apologize to Russia, since I, like many of the people who can trace their lineage to colonized and imperialized countries, fully support it

European countries will now have to buy Russian gas in Yuans/RMB instead of US Dollars.

>>555435
>Are you aware of his bad opinions about LGBT he literally thinks that "unequal exchange" cannot happen ?
1. bait and switch fallacy, topic was geo-politics not social values, or economic theory
2. Cockshott attacked specifically Judith Butler's version of gender theory on theoretical grounds, he did not push for social discrimination, learn to accept that some people have opinions that are very different from yours, without demanding to "burn the heretic". (Personally I'm undecided on the issue of gender theory, I'm holding out for evidence from brain research before i make up my mind, but if you do anything to imply that this theory is unquestionable doctrine, you are signalling a faith based believe system that will convince me to file it under highly improbable. I'm very allergic to anything that gives off religious zeal vibes)
3. unequal exchange theory is likely wrong, nobody has been able to challenge Cockshott's on a theoretical level on that. Some Marxist say that unequal exchange and profit equalization can be rescued when you restrict it to the realm of pure finance capital. I haven't drawn my conclusions about that yet, because it's dense theory that takes time to process.

>His "proposals" are just
>1) Utopian socialist talking points
Cybernetic socialism is a realistic economic system for creating an economic system that could plausibly deliver on money-less economy.
Sortition democracy with democratic issue polling, is probably going to solve socialist problems with party politics, ie remove the need for purges..
>2) Apply big computers. I believe that if a revolutionary party comes to power they can do it themselves without needing Mr Dickblast reactionary utopian drivels.
<Noo you can't think about possible ways how to construct a better future beforehand.
I'm pretty sure that this hostility towards thinking about technical details about how to build a better future comes from an internalized desire to maintain the status quo, because if people can imagine how a better world could look like, they might actually change something.

TLDR you did not critique anything about the geo-political Article that Cockshott re-posted on his blog, you just attacked Cockshott's character, ad-hom attacks are type of social approval, congrats you just gave him a metaphorical upvote.

>send in a column with no infantry to back it up
>it gets destroyed
>repeat 5x
russia is dogshit at war