/lgbt/ - LGBT

>>2170
>>2250
>jesus nobody even knows what a transmed is

its hard to take "transmedicalism" seriously when it means anything from gatekeeping HRT to "trans person i dont like" tbh

>>2625
its not gatekeeping access to HRT its its saying that trans have to be on HRT which in most places requires a medical diagnosis. its really not hard to understand. its a less extreme version of you have to have surgery to be really trans but follows the same principle.

seems like people are just upset because they understand trans through transmedicalism and think its not real if gender is just a social construction, so they appeal to medical "science" for justification. its just regurgitating bioessentialism and is the same argument as people screeching about chromosomes. both cis and trans transmedicalists want to pin gender down to a physical object because correctly understood the existence of trans undermines their own univestigated identity which they want to have a solid grounding. but identity doesn't have a solid grounding its entirely social.

>>2627
>which in most places requires a medical diagnosis
lol what is DIY

if you dont have money then its fine, but if you dont plan on undergoing HRT at all then its literally just make believe and pretending pronouns are some magic fae words lmfao

>>2628
>pretending pronouns are some magic fae words lmfao
this response just confirms what i said applies to you. gender identity is entirely subjective its not defined by an external object. yes this makes it extremely nebulous, not just for trans people and not with just gender but for all identity.

>>2159
>>2106
>Trans is not about transitioning

Not to sound like a dick, but isn't trans gender about like wanting to transition? It's in the name.
IDK why radlibs want cis folk to bend over backwards for trans folk when the community cannot make up their mind about how to define their own situation.

You say gender is a spook.
But then that would mean trans is a spook as well.

I mean >>2258 sounds more like someone wanting cosmetic surgery but not wanting to deal with the consequences of such a thing but cannot tolerate the natural biochronological process.

>>2270
You're right on the money

>>2629
>gender identity is entirely subjective
This comes dangerously close to the "born in the wrong body" argument, which is actual idealism, so let me share a more dialectical approach:
A man or woman is something you become in a social context, based on appearance and social behavior. To be transgender necessarily means to want to take the role of the opposite sex, yet the inability to do so doesn't need to be a personal failing. While some communities ask people about pronouns and such, in most social settings they depend on passing and passing as such by doing hrt and shit would be the goal, if you wanted to continue engaging with cissiety or have already internalized some of its notions about gender (which is most people over the age of 6).

>>2630
> but isn't trans gender about like wanting to transition? It's in the name.
no
>>2274

>>2632
>This comes dangerously close to the "born in the wrong body"
i dont see how
>something you become in a social context
yeah
>based on appearance and social behavior
dunno about that. your externalizing identity again.
theres an interplay to social things but if were really being dialectical the influence is both internal as it is external but the identity itself is internal. foundationally it is a self-identification. passing is more about validation or even classification, which isn't really identity in the same sense. appearance and social behavior will influence the development of a persons self-identity but its not what determines it. people can be closeted and still identify as trans, just like men can have sex with men and not identify as gay. identity is pretty arbitrary which is why idpol is uh… not so great

like a worker can identify as/with capitalist/capitalism without owning capital. is this idealism? i dont really care. the fact that they identify as a capitalist still has material influences and is something we should investigate. we deal with the world as it is not how we imagine it to be

>>1866
I've decided to be trans today. 🤗
Tomorrow I'll be straight tho. 🫤

>>2634
>being dialectical
pseuds are so annoying when they pretend to know what theyre talking about lol

>>2629
good thing nobody takes you vibes and aura tards seriously anyway

>>2635
>we deal with the world as it is not how we imagine it to be
<this is why you dont even need to transition to be trans, the literal meaning of the word
peak retardation

>>2634
>people can be closeted and still identify as trans
For anyone but the most chronic boymoders, being closeted is fundamentally an unwanted condition getting in the way of recognition. Transmedicalist do have a point: People not actively transitioning doesn't discount their inner lives, yet for most this means their desires are unrealized. Identity only realizes itself by being recognized, as any dialectitian should know.
>men can have sex with men and not identify as gay
Yeah, i've heard of straight young boys jerking each other off. Still moids can't just do gay things without consequences. As soon as they give other men the ick by "acting gay", especially in an environment as bleak as school, they become "the gay kid" in everyones eyes.

>>2639
>the literal meaning of the word
thats not what the word means

>>2640
>Identity only realizes itself by being recognized
ok i havent read enough freud or whatever what is this from

>>2637
The post is responding to someone who brought up dialectics first. Please provide an alternative or elaborate.

>>2642
google master-slave dialectic

>>2642
>>2643
philosophy tards who believe dialectics is an identity or a method or some magic way to reveal the inner workings of reality lmfao

>>2634
Cissexuals that are calling oneself "he/they" or whatever neopronoun they chose that week does not mean they interact with the world any differently to any other cissexual guy.

>>2640
>Transmedicalist do have a point: People not actively transitioning doesn't discount their inner lives
Transmeds say you should only get HRT if you got a medical diagnosis. What the fuck are you even talking about.

>>2646
>does not mean they interact with the world any differently
yes that is my point too

>>2641
you dont get to dictate what trans means when you just pulled some vibes-based shit out of your ass about how trans can mean literally whatever you want

>>2644
I would think that recognition as a gender other than the one a person identifies as would also be realization in this sense.

>>2649
it means transgender not transition

>>2646
>>2648
go on grindr for 5 mins and youll discover many men lie about their gender expression too

>>2649
>vibes-based shit
>>2639
>vibes and aura
i dont understand how this is your conclusion. its not what im saying at all

This is why ceding ground on "sex vs gender" just to protect the feelings of cissexuals who call themselves "genderspicy" was a mistake, by the way. Trans women ARE, in fact, biological women (insofar as that phrase even has a reasonable definition, at least).

>>2004
>femboy, it's a valid gender
lmao what is meant by "valid"? absolutely nonsense term

probably bad to make an ""identity"" out of a porn category that fetishizes youth too btw. probably not great overall if i had to guess

>>2646
>Transmeds say you should only get HRT
Then i meant something more like bioessentialism-lite.
>What the fuck are you even talking about.
Saying it is "valid" not to transition sidelines the fact that, as you said, it is often the result of not being able to transition. It's like the fat people debate, where some in the body positivity camp insist being morbidly obese is totally healthy or even desireable and their existence is used to discount valid criticism of diet culture and lookism.

>This is why ceding ground on "sex vs gender" was a mistake
i agree lol
but because sex is just as arbitrary as gender

>>2644
where is the external recognition by others part?

>>2659
watch out theyre gonna bring up some idiot academic to back up their bullshit

>>2658
midwits like you think the worst thing that happens to trans people is people being rude to us sometimes like sorry nobody cares about people who only socially transition except for fellow bored middle classers

>>2661
not at all i just think that essentializing transness instead of seeing it as the harbinger of sex/gender as made obsolete by capitalism is fundamentally reactionary and reinforces everything negative instead of providing a framework to explain its overcoming which we are currently in the middle of as a society

>>2660
i actually thought desire was some lacan thing but its right there in hegel. as i understand it the slave comes to self-recognition as fully human by overcoming the denial of such by his master. so precisely not through external validation. the same way a trans person might come to know themselves through identification with others of the gender opposite of their assigned one

>>2663
>precisely not through external validation
But still the process is contingent on seeking external validation and the eventual realization of ones identity doesn't represent a complete regression towards the initial form of desire, the difference to the object of desire is negated by self-consciousness changing as much as desire. Recognizing yourself as the gender you want to be is an objective process and while its completion represents a rejection of cisgender norms, the external notions opposing it need to be sublated within, preserved by differing degrees. Therefore i would argue the majority of trans people who haven't transitioned have yet to realize their identity.

>>2664
Sure, but just as you said they are still trans people. Even when they realize their "true" identity the have just arrived at the contradictory point where cis people start.
There is no resolution. Identity is constantly broken down and rebuilt again throughout a persons life from child, to student, adult, parent, worker, friend, teacher, moving to a new city or country, learning a new language etc.
Self-identity is not something you become, its not that you become trans and then you are a trans being, its a process of trans becoming. The point is that cis becoming is no less contradictory or in someway more static or "real". Is a woman the human that produces the larger gamete? What about menopause?

>>2666
Trips of truth! "anti-idpol" hazcels btfo

>>2633
Then trans is a spook

>>2655
>Trans women are in fact biological women

Biological as in born as women?

>>2093
>Honestly, I don't blame the artist, only those sheltered so much they no longer know what an actual human body looks like in the flesh and bone. Which kind of includes me too tbh.

This is a rare moment of self awareness.
People often like to blame social media or whatever for low self esteem. But the truth is, it's not the media formats themselves. It's just that these people have inherently no self value and so cannot be bothered to take any sense of responsibility.

I think banning social media to protect "impressionable minds" is merely a bandaid over a third degree burn.

>>2666
Identity is relative.
Just like all things in the cosmos.

>>2658
If sex is as arbitrary as gender, why aren't we referring to middle aged neck beards as women?

another good reminder that philosophizing does not have any actual political relevance

>>2678
>Then trans is a spook
yes, gender is a spook
>relative
Identity is relative in the sense that it is a social relation, determined by material conditions, but that doesn't make it arbitrary, it makes it more concrete.
>why aren't we referring to middle aged neck beards as women
What is arbitrary is the classification, not its determination. It is human activity that makes the classification meaningful, but where the lines are drawn are historically contingent on the society they exist in and its mode of production. Like how the psuedoscientific category of race only comes into existence after the enlightenment and capitalism, but then the superstructure changes the base, which in turn changes the superstructure, which makes race a real abstraction just like value or money. Race is a social fact, not biological.

But it doesn't stop there, the whole point here is that these identities are not static external objects but social constructs that are constantly changing, and the industrial revolution undermines the meaning of gendered differences.

Under capitalism even identity becomes commodified, something you consume. Anyone can be anything depending on what they buy, but consumption is not self determination. And for Marx, unlike Hegel, this is not true freedom through mutual recognition under a rational state, because a state is an organ for the oppression of one class by another.

The only universal identity under capitalism is the worker, and the emancipation of other identities depends on the universal emancipation of that class.

It is not purchasing medical interventions that concretizes the identity through mutual recognition, any more then buying a truck makes a real man, it is the overthrow and restructuring of the whole order of class society. It is not the individual act that liberates, but the society that makes choice freely accessible.

Either take estrogen or fuck off.

>>2710
>conform to gender norms under threat of violence
wonder if there's a term for this…

>>2721
do you mean not conforming to the regime of gender itself? if so, then transitioning IS pretty clearly "gender non conforming"

>>2721
>>2722
like under particularly regressive standards a girl liking sport could be considered "gender non-comforming," but it wouldnt make her trans :) but on the other hand if youre talking about actually defying gender itself then medically transitioning is the most GNC thing one can do

its such a vague term as to be nonsense when presented without elaboration, something radlibs absolutely love to do

>>2721
>conforming to gender norms is when you go against your ASAB
Did you really think this was a smart thing to say?

>>2722
>>2723
Fucking based.

>>2722
>>2723
>>2725
Yes, conforming to gender norms is conforming to gender norms, even if that is not the gender you were assigned (or even the dominant ones). Think.
Cute that all three of you omit the 'under threat of violence bit'. Hmm…
>Did you really think this was a smart thing to say?
Did you think your response was?