/lgbt/ - LGBT

>>7921
That's not entirely true, I know in India and Thailand were considered a third gender.

>>7921
Yeah I know in greco-roman times it was feminine to receive/bottom/be penetrated which makes much more sense than identity imo which is subjective but the actual act is objective.

>>7922
South Asian Hijra don't see themselves as transgender and neither do Kathoeys. For a trans person, they are moving from one gender to another, whereas Hijra (at least in Muslim parts of South Asia) are seen as a gender wholly separate from men and women with their own unique roles. In fact, I've seen Hijra activists say pretty transphobic things. A trans person becomes trans by identifying as the opposite gender. A Hijra becomes a Hijra by being taken in by a stable and being mentored into it through service to a master Hijra who teaches them the ropes. Kathoeys typically identify as male or intersex, they don't transition to another sex.

>>7919
>The body was too short or empty
Maybe thats a sign that your post doesnt have enough content to warrant making a whole new fucking thread for.
Anyways, religion is just delusion and is at odds with any form of actual leftism

>>7921
Galli:
> "They say they are not men, and indeed they aren't; they want to pass as women" -Err. prof. rel. 4.2
Modern MtFs:
> "They say they are not men, and indeed they aren't; they want to pass as women"

The whole liberal-fascist chutzpah about "muh don't look at other cultures through your Westoid lens" is absolute psyop, designed to portray transsexuality as a completely new degenerate idpol invented in 2016 along with Gamergate, and not an ancient thing closely connected to paganism.

>>7927
Passive-aggressive chud, take haloperidol

>>7929
>liberal-fascist, portray transsexuality as a completely new degenerate idpol
Its not clear how pointing out that cultures are historically particular is liberal fascism. You are putting words in my mouth. I never said transsexuality is degenerate and saying something is new isn't a put down. You don't need to have an ancient pedigree to back up your existence or be treated kindly.

That primary source comes from Firmicus Maternus' Error of the Pagan Religions, which is a Christian polemic and not necessarily a fair representation of the group he's describing. The idea that this is "just like modern mtfs" is based entirely on semantics and aesthetics. Modern mtfs don't alter their bodies to fill out a spiritual and religious role, but to express who they are. We don't really know from this passage exactly why Galli want to be seen as women (assuming that isn't a Chrstian author putting words in their mouth). On the same page Firmicus Maternus condemns the Pagans by saying:
<Ponder too what sort of divinity it is which finds it such a delight to sojourn in an impure body. Blush for Her Highness, you poor wretches;
<As for Juno, they maintain that she progressed from being Jupiter’s sister to being his spouse. Animated by some sort of reverential feeling, they actually have made this element into a woman. For, because air is an intermediary between sea and sky, they honor it through priests who have womanish voices. Tell me, is air a divinity if it looks for a woman in a man, if its band of priests can minister to it only when they have feminized their faces

What he's saying is that the deity the Galli worships comes to 'sojourn' (inhabit) their bodies and they modify themselves to look like women to embody a female goddess so they can minister to it. The Galli don't pass as women because they identify as female, but to serve a deity and act as its intermediary. He tells us they are driven by "reverential feeling," not the belief they are actually women.

A modern mtf doesn't transition because they want to honor a female deity. They don't transition because of reverence to a god, but to express their real gender identity.

Neonazism

>>7921
I agree. Thinking modern day social relations are eternal and universal is not materialist. That doesn't mean transgenderism is completely unrelated to other third genders. The desire to change your sex is biological and not just social. Modern transgenderism can only exist under capitalism and capitalist technology, and is a rejection of becoming a third gender.

>>7931
>You don't need to have an ancient pedigree to back up your existence or be treated kindly.
You're glowing
>The Galli don't pass as women because they identify as female, but to serve a deity and act as its intermediary.
These are just different prepositions for the same thing.
No sane cisgender man would voluntarily renounce his status, castrate himself, and live as a woman - these are clear signs of gender dysphoria.
And it would be very strange to assume that gender dysphoria SUDDENLY appeared only now, and wasn't there before. The same is true for other F diagnoses.
It's just that people used to find it easier to describe it as demonic possession, a gift from the gods, or something else.

And aren't today's trans people still a third gender? They have their own culture, most of their friends are also trans, and society often doesn't accept them (with the exception of luckshits).

>>7933
I guess they are related in that third genders show us that a two gender binary isn’t some natural or timeless thing. Other than that, they aren’t much related. Like I said, I’ve seen hijra that are staunch transphobes. I wouldn’t know it’s a rejection of being third gender, but third genders have begun to decline in countries where identifying as trans is seen as more prestigious. This is one of the reasons many Hijra are virulent transphobes.

>The desire to change your sex is biological and not just social.
I don’t think there’s one single cause for why a person changes their gender. If someone put a gun to your head and told you to change gender or die, you’d probably transition regardless of your biology. There are many incentives to do things and you can’t boil everything down to biology.

>>7934
They aren’t the same. There’s no proof that Galli experienced gender dysphoria, the source says they become ‘womanish’ out of reverence to a God. Saying they were really transgender but didn’t know it is pure presentism.

>>7935
In conservative and religious societies like Pakistan, Thailand, and,Oman, third genders are generally recognized as a valid gender alongside male and female, even if they are inferior to men. In the US, people deny transgenders even exist or are legitimate. This leads to a problem, even if you transition you are always marked out as different from other people, but still that’s not a valid third gender but just outcast status.

>>7922
>third gender
exactly, not (binary, the most populous type) transgender

>>7936
> There’s no proof that Galli experienced gender dysphoria
> castrated themselves with blunt instruments like a fucking 4transhumanister
Ok Rabbi :^)
> Demedicalization
> Vxlid vxlid vxlid

>>7921
>didn't exist before the 20th century.
>Maybe some sort of neopaganism?
yeah fits your incorrect premise

>>7926
doesnt really matter how they socially conceptualize their position its the same core phenomena

>>7929
>The whole liberal-fascist chutzpah about "muh don't look at other cultures through your Westoid lens" is absolute psyop
tru

>>7931
>historically particular
yeah thats good and correct but it doesnt mean modern is separate in its uniqueness instead of a continuity understood within necessarily different material relations due to the pass of time
>A modern mtf doesn't transition because they want to honor a female deity. They don't transition because of reverence to a god, but to express their real gender identity.
this is pretty dumb lol

>>7933
>Thinking modern day social relations are eternal and universal is not materialist.
agree but i dont think that people are suggesting historic third genders are EXACTLY THE SAME.
>a rejection of becoming a third gender.
not heard of nonbinary? not heard of marxist analysis that capitalism dissolves all that is solid into air? not heard of gender abolition, like og accelerationism, not as a movement but a description of something capital already does? industry and computization destroy the material basis for meaningful sexual dimorphism in labor and therefore social reproduction. binary trans is like a transitional(heh) state(double pun!) is to communism as some individuals get ahead of the material conditions and prefigure the future.

>>7937
>exactly, not (binary, the most populous type) transgender
thats obviously socially determined and not essential to the phenomena, likely due to modern advertising being so prevalent and focused on sex.

please consider material conditions

hihi i generally support trans ppl venerating different divinities which support them. it reminds me of this discord guild someone made where they wanted to try and build up a pro-lgbt pagan alliance to argue that christian nationalist anti-lgbt laws are against religious liberty. i think that is an interesting project, but obviously a little bit optimistic with respect to the efficacy of setting a legal precedent in bourgeois institutions

in this thread i see that there has been debate going on the point of whether these groups were actually transgender or not. ultimately i have to partially side with the glownonymous poster. there is an irreducible difference between weltanschauungs and their constituted realities. the galli along with various other 3rd genders operated within a particular mode of being wherein the practices they had made sense. this is important to appreciate because from different unfoldings of being come different ethical logics. "gender dysphoria", qua status as physiological variable, may have been a contributing factor to some of the initiations into these priesthoods, but the libidinal economy is far more complex than that. some of these priests, for instance, could have non-dysphoric agp which when instantiated within a particular social-cultural facticities, manifested as ritual castration, as that is where such cathected flows would go. others may have even felt a calling for reasons that may not even have been on the usual physiological variables we even discuss in the west, such as divine revelation i.e. a pathic resonance coming from "the Outside"

there are important political implications to this as well. liberals and such tend to make the mistaken assumption that bourgeois society is substanceless (a mistake we see >>7940 making). this is not in fact correct. if it were really the case we would see an absolute explosion of cathected logics of justification for transsexual existence. on contrary, in typical discourse, there is an oscillation between logics of medicalization, those of "bodily autonomy", and those of "gender". this is because transsexuality highlights a key contradiction in the self-constitution of the bourgeois state insofar as it is formally meant to be the guarantor of "human rights". part of these rights concern the insurance of the well-being and overall integrity of every individual. there has been a consistent struggle to justify why psychological well-being or desire should trump the integrity of the human organism, and this is a contradiction that was brought to near full explication in janice raymond's 'the transsexual empire'

actually i was recently reading this piece by the catholic church which ends up arguing against sex change and it is quite remarkable that, though it does make various theological justifications, the underlying logic does not much depart underlying problems with liberalism
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2024/04/08/240408c.html
>This ontological dignity and the unique and eminent value of every man and woman in the world was reaffirmed authoritatively in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, issued by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948.[3] As we commemorate the 75th anniversary of that document, the Church sees an opportunity to proclaim anew its conviction that all human beings—created by God and redeemed by Christ—must be recognized and treated with respect and love due to their inalienable dignity. The anniversary also provides an occasion for the Church to clarify some frequent misconceptions concerning human dignity and to address some serious and urgent related issues.
>[…] Pope St. John Paul II, during the Third General Conference of Latin American and Caribbean Bishops in Puebla in 1979, affirmed that human dignity is “a Gospel value that cannot be despised without greatly offending the Creator. This dignity is infringed on the individual level when due regard is not had for values such as freedom, the right to profess one’s religion, physical and mental integrity, the right to essential goods, to life. It is infringed on the social and political level when man cannot exercise his right of participation, or when he is subjected to unjust and unlawful coercion, or submitted to physical or mental torture, etc. […] If the Church makes herself present in the defense of, or in the advancement of human dignity, she does so in line with her mission, which, although it is religious and not social or political, cannot fail to consider man in the entirety of his being.”[6]
>At the same time, the Church highlights the definite critical issues present in gender theory. On this point, Pope Francis has reminded us that “the path to peace calls for respect for human rights, in accordance with the simple yet clear formulation contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whose seventy-fifth anniversary we recently celebrated. These principles are self-evident and commonly accepted. Regrettably, in recent decades, attempts have been made to introduce new rights that are neither fully consistent with those originally defined nor always acceptable. They have led to instances of ideological colonization, in which gender theory plays a central role; the latter is extremely dangerous since it cancels differences in its claim to make everyone equal.”[102]
>The dignity of the body cannot be considered inferior to that of the person as such. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly invites us to recognize that “the human body shares in the dignity of ‘the image of God.’”[106] Such a truth deserves to be remembered, especially when it comes to sex change, for humans are inseparably composed of both body and soul. In this, the body serves as the living context in which the interiority of the soul unfolds and manifests itself, as it does also through the network of human relationships. Constituting the person’s being, the soul and the body both participate in the dignity that characterizes every human.[107] Moreover, the body participates in that dignity as it is endowed with personal meanings, particularly in its sexed condition.[108] It is in the body that each person recognizes himself or herself as generated by others, and it is through their bodies that men and women can establish a loving relationship capable of generating other persons. Teaching about the need to respect the natural order of the human person, Pope Francis affirmed that “creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”[109] It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception. This is not to exclude the possibility that a person with genital abnormalities that are already evident at birth or that develop later may choose to receive the assistance of healthcare professionals to resolve these abnormalities. However, in this case, such a medical procedure would not constitute a sex change in the sense intended here.
if we peel off the theological language and metaphysics, we see similar tendencies in many liberal transphobes when they say that trans people should just learn to love their bodies or that various of these surgeries are forms of mutilation. there is a rigour in the theological vocabulary here insofar as it tacitly recognizes that these rights are a reflection of World and it is by the constitution of World they have an ontological universality

to me, the highlighting of 3rd genders suggests that we should cultivate a shared cultural context and perhaps a general orientation or Weltanschauung from which to collectively proceed. i write more about this in this blogpost:
https://hidwehproject.nekoweb.org/pages/blog/posts/2025-11-04-On-The-Transgender-Question.html

>>7941
now based upon this problematic, one might wonder why i promote hidweh project primarily rather than practice with ishtar, cybelle etc. i think part of it came from lurking around the whole ishtar movement on /x/. i feel like there is an overall lack of real momentum in it, there is not much of a real call to move forward in any determinate fashion. there is also the struggle to translate the shared religious participation with these gods to the context of a largely online movement. all of this i think is largely because it is not much of an actually living movement. there are not really any structures of legitimization anymore that would give authority to ppl to move forward and develop something new with the tradition and so they are mostly reserved to just a mixture of practice informed by scholarship and casual informal personal practices that would not really constitute any real religio. i think this anon said it best:
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/40073170/#40092256
>True, in its current state, this general is just a wet fart in the wind.
>I liked the thread where we were pretending as if we were going to matter some day and talking about creating an actual temple, but that's just fantasy, and real life has no place for fantasy.
>So until a based schizo prophet comes along, Ishtarite-Remnant-Stormy Thought is going to remain a fringe socio-political spiritual movement entirely located to /x/ and discord.
i can be such a "schizo prophet" figure for hidweh but not for ishtar

i also find hidweh more compelling obviously because i want to change my flesh not simply change gender role, so i tend to want to work with her more than other goddesses

>>7941
youre overpriveledging gender dysphoria when it is a manifestation of capitalist relations medicalizing difference for profit and not an essential difference to the phenomena of transgenderism

its not a unique thing that highlights the contradiction of bourgeois state, the contradiction is primary and the particular expression of differently gendered people in a bourgeois state is a reflection of it. people having differentiated expression is transhistorical and universal, and the various minority expressions have a contiguous continuity by virtue of being minority.

this also applies to disability and mental illness and why the argument over whether trans is mental illness misses the point. mental illness itself is medicalization of difference in expression for profit and not an essential phenomena.

in other words, its not that hijra(etc) are trans, thats backwards, its that trans are of the same type

>>7942
>i can be such a "schizo prophet"
then perhaps you can appreciate the analogy between the schizo and the shaman. is the clinical crazy not in historical continuity with the shaman in the same way as the modern trans to the gallae?

>>7943
>not an essential difference to the phenomena of transgenderism
nowhere have i claimed this, if anything i pushed in the opposite direction
<"gender dysphoria", qua status as physiological variable, may have been a contributing factor to some of the initiations into these priesthoods, but the libidinal economy is far more complex than that.
the essential problem is that of the liberal state's pretension to "human rights". when you make things about "gender" instead of "gender dysphoria" you have not resolved anything. you have simply made things worse. now the question is "why should people be able to mutilate themselves just because of sex stereotypes/they ignore material reality?". various klansfems and transmedicalists understand this is a problem and that is how they arrived at their position. making it about abstract subjective gender expression only further crystallizes the problem of social necessity. there are immediate material manifestations to this beyond just stark discrimination and eliminationist policies. a lack of social necessity means there is absolutely no reason to fund surgeries, notwithstanding the problem of integrity. even in a socialist mode of production you need some logic of social necessity that rises to the level of collective authority. stalin would never have given trans stuff the time of day, meanwhile the nazis did provided strong conditions with respect to gender conformity. now i am not a klansfem or a transmedicalist, but the problem is a serious one which subversivism is simply unable to pay attention to
>is the clinical crazy not in historical continuity with the shaman in the same way as the modern trans to the gallae?
physiological continuity? maybe. historical? no. these are different vocabularies. otherwise you might as well say the british empire has historical continuity with australian aboriginals by virtue of them both having human brains

now do i think it is possible to incorporate hijra into a larger movement? yes, but it will be based on material tendencies and the fact that many of them do perform acts that would constitute something of a physical transition, and i do believe that there is a resonance there. however, it is a mistake to see this resonance as meaning they belong to this historically contingent category of western modernity. here is one place where i gesture towards what this resonance consists in >>7944

again i need to underline the importance of being careful here. a common slogan that people push is "trans people have always existed!" but is this actually at all obvious? from the perspective of transphobic liberal modernity, any culture you can point to is ultimately an example of a primitive backwardness. the enlightenment abhors any "regressive" gesture towards such a state, that is itself the enlightenment's own myth. when transsexuality runs against very real problems with respect to how the bourgeois state justifies itself, this quietly hidden reactive tendency of liberalism is only intensified

let me put it simply: "these backwards ancient people cut their dicks off so .. we should let these mentally ill people do so as well? what is this supposed to prove? ok yes cultures are different but they are not OUR culture so why do we need to entertain this?" - the subversivist fails to give a serious response to this, and gender theorizations are a form of dissimulation manufacturing subjectivities that now people are supposed to accept the legitimacy of, not understanding that legitimacy is immanent to the logic of the very culture they are trying to subvert

>>7945
>"trans people have always existed!"
>the subversivist fails to give a serious response to this
i agree. i think that message is one of self understanding and not meant to be an appeal to justification on liberal grounds. its purpose isnt subversion. its not asking permission. its saying different types of people have always existed for reasons other than the logic of profit, its the inverse, that capitalism is what is transient and new to modernity.
>not understanding that legitimacy is immanent to the logic of the very culture they are trying to subvert
right which is why the goal is abolition of capitalism
its the same way "trans rights are human rights" means workers generally dont currently have human rights, not an appeal for special rights. healthcare for example is covered under the undhr

>>7946
abolition of capitalism does permit other cultural logics i agree but when people usually make the claim that "trans people have always existed!" and "trans rights are human rights" they are operating within a liberal framework uncritically assuming the presence of such rights and their connection to trans existence. there it is important to appreciate that the demonstration that other ways of life are possible does not establish continuity. a simple cultural decentering does not give any real legitimization to trans existence. that legitimization must come from ourselves. all it does is say "hey this is an alternative logic which we can cultivate", it does not say that there has always been trans people. the first thought can very easily exist without the second one just fine

yes, there is some affective resonance there but when you start intellectualizing it by bringing in gender stuff we begin to run into problems. you are working with the myth of transexual existence and trying to translate that into something that is supposed to be both contingent to particular social totalities yet at the same time somehow transhistorical. in jumping straight to the mythology i am being far more honest about it. there is "something there" but it is not "being transgender". as such if someone comes to me and says well those people weren't trans because their culture is different, i wouldnt argue with them, or i would say "yes but they do evince a transsexual myth, a Symbol that goes beyond sociological gender". i say transsexual existence often because i think that is more important. and by existence, i mean existential, their way of being in the world, their engagement with a Symbol. while there are different historicities, there are particular ways of being that do resonate at the level of the Symbol rather than that of spatio-temporal coordinates. these ways of being go beyond gender, i am talking about concrete forms of behaviour such as self-castration, ingestion of hormones, cross-sexual cathexis, etc

actually i think an issue is that a lot of people who talk about this notion of gender tend to frame it in terms of how individuals navigate around a binary. how i see it first and foremost is that gender is a significatory totality which subjects various individuals. such a totality is a feature of the socius, it is not simply a matter of individual identity

>"trans rights are human rights" means workers generally dont currently have human rights, not an appeal for special rights. healthcare for example is covered under the undhr
i already talked about the problem with the notion of human rights to begin with and how even in a socialist govt it is not immediately obvious why they should be accommodating to transsexuals. there are different cultures, but if their underlying logos is not commensurate with transsexual existence then it wont work out. i dont view socialism as something that is emancipatory for individual existence in a way commensurate with how liberals understand freedom. the abolition of global capitalism suspends the winding of all durations into a linear Chronic totality. it does not mean a vanishing of all actuality, but rather the permission for drift amongst timelines

socialism and communism will be realized in determinate communities with determinate cultures and not all of them are going to have the same abstract humanist values. this ethical universalism is a product of capitalism's historical globalizing tendencies, im not quite sure the reason why we should believe such tendencies should survive after the abolition of capital

>>7947
>when people usually make the claim that "trans people have always existed!" and "trans rights are human rights" they are operating within a liberal framework
yeah that might be the case idk i dont really have a survey on it. i dont think popularity of incorrect ideas overrides correct less popular ones
>even in a socialist govt it is not immediately obvious why they should be accommodating to transsexuals
might also be true but the material premise for freedom is still the development of productive forces
>i dont view socialism as something that is emancipatory for individual existence in a way commensurate with how liberals understand freedom
well yes liberals are wrong. freedom comes from increased degrees of action due to division of labor and technology increasing labor efficiency. trans rights is diabetic rights when the publicly owned laboratory makes hrt and insulin for distribution according to need instead of profit.

>>7945
>now do i think it is possible to incorporate hijra into a larger movement? yes, but it will be based on material tendencies and the fact that many of them do perform acts that would constitute something of a physical transition, and i do believe that there is a resonance there
I doubt you can bridge hijra and transgenders. In fact, many hijra are transphobes who reject the possibility of transition. Hijra don't have a concept of "gender," they believe they are a third sex distinct from men and women and that their birth as hijra is a miraculous act of God. Alterations to the body are just cosmetic procedures, not different from a woman seeking plastic surgery to look hotter. Hijra often shit on transgenders because they see transitioning as a rejection of God's will or something un Islamic etc.

>>7947
>while there are different historicities, there are particular ways of being that do resonate at the level of the Symbol rather than that of spatio-temporal coordinates. these ways of being go beyond gender, i am talking about concrete forms of behaviour such as self-castration, ingestion of hormones, cross-sexual cathexis, etc
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm sure transgenders can relate. albeit in superficial ways, to various "gender" variant cultures but this doesn't imply commonality or can be a basis for solidarity.

>>7948
>material premise for freedom is still the development of productive forces
This view has lead to ecological crisis. We don't need more development, but less. If that means less freedom, then so be it. Humans aren't the only inhabitants of this Earth and aren't entitled to more freedom.

>>7955
>Hijra don't have a concept of "gender," they believe they are a third sex distinct from men and women and that their birth as hijra is a miraculous act of God
this is perfectly fine for me as i do not operate on the assumption of gender primarily either. if they are interested in bodily alteration hidweh smiles on them

>>7955
>This view has lead to ecological crisis. We don't need more development,
imperialist detected, opinion discarded