Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:25 No. 940
A lot of batman villains were working class who got wronged in some way. Ivy, freeze, two face etc…
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:25 No. 941
>>938 >unemployed mentally ill guy who kills people He’s lumpen bro
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:25 No. 942
>>932 I’m more fan of his villains tbh. Also, there one batman comic(forgot the name), where he realises, that the only reason he’s not regular street goon is cause of his class.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:25 No. 944
>>941 He got fired ; Being working class doesn't mean not literally holding a job. Read some theory you faggot.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:26 No. 948
>>944 He’s still kills people and is institutionalized in a psychiatric asylum dumbass
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:26 No. 958
>be billionaire >want to "stop crime" >don't lobby for prison reform or something like that >buy expensive toys to help you beat up poor people
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:27 No. 959
>>958 The Wayne foundation gives tons of money to help the citizens of Gotham, it's just not him punching people around
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:27 No. 960
>>959 >muh good billionaires Every dollar he spends to help punch people is a dollar he could spend on soup kitchens. This is liberal shit my man. Even assuming he does charity, he still wastes a profound amount of money punishing criminals instead of preventing crime by solving social problems.
The whole conceit of batman is that the government fails to enforce law and order to a billionaire vigilante has to step in. It's ancap fantasy to the max.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:27 No. 962
I know people here don't like Thought Slime but he gives some pretty good leftist takes on Batman
https://youtu.be/73M2sq9zK-I Overall, I think it depends on the writer. Some, like Frank Miller, do portray Batman as a borderline fascist doing what he pleases but others show his evolution from being a revenge driven conservative starting a war on crime to maturing and trying to erase the conditions on which crime arises in Gotham with the help of his fortune. I agree that in this context he's a liberal at best but I doubt anyone is going to write him going full Engels and starting a revolution.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:27 No. 966
>>963 I haven't read capeshit in a long time. Is Red Son any good?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:27 No. 967
>>966 It has its moments but doesn't really go anywhere or fully explore its premise, and its portrayal of the USSR is very clearly based on western propaganda. It's not too long though. I have it in image format and could storytime it in another thread.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:27 No. 968
>>967 I would be up for a storytime.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:37 No. 1080
>>967 >>968 I’d like that too
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:39 No. 1102
>>932 Why can’t he be both?
sage 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:39 No. 1103
Batman was never supposed to be political. His entire appeal is that he was a vigilante who simply had the money, tech and ability to carry out the justice against criminals that many ordinary people fantasize about.He acts alone usually because he does not want to put responsibility on others, even the police whom he helpsHe uses intelligence and skill that he refined through practiceHe does not kill, not because of some bullshit like;>"If you kill a killer the number of killers in the world remains the same"but because he doesn't want to stoop to that level. That is why his enemies have always been so interesting, they're all reflections of himself and human nature of one kind or another. Two-Face - the dichotomy of choice Joker - madness and impulsiveness caused by isolationScarecrow - utilization of fear Hugo Strange - obsession Penguin - a craving for opulence and respectSo on and so forth. Many of his foes also crave revenge and their own twisted justice.In other words Batman when not linked the rest of the mess that is the DCU, is less about political ideology and more about individual human struggle and thoughts. His enemy Joker is best, not when giggling madly over a clown-shaped gun but when he points out how Batman is not really so different from him: A freak in a suit operating outside the law. He's not a hero but an anti-hero. His fundamental humanity and position as a rich but kind person makes it hard for him to understand that the capitalist system is what creates most criminals he fights and his own status as a billionaire contributes to this. Instead he tries to take the world on his shoulders, but as a mere individual, even a billionaire, he fails because vigilantism is just picking at the symptoms and not the causes; missing the forest for the treesBatman doesn't work in a world of superheroes like Superman or Wonderwoman or The Flash, He performs above human average because of money, intellect and training, but he is still human, which meshes terribly with superbeings. Being part of shit like the Justice League just makes him a poor parody and infects his character with american comic-book ideology, which is where the whole issue with him being an antihero comes up. He is neither ruthless enough to go full-assassin and thus be a counter to Superman's boyscout ideology yet his own original character contradicts such ideological action as well.TL;DR: Batman outside of superhero DC-verse is a vigilante anti-hero whose tech and actions are a power-fantasy, and whose enemies are a reflection of himself and human nature. His inherent characterization is not focused on the bourgeoisie-proletariat interaction, and was not originally political. Thus his character is inconsistent as part of the "American justice and freedom" superheroes of DCU.For a socio-political/ideological analysis, Joker (especially the recent titular movie) is a much better character. Batman is more of a character study in a detective noir setting, except the private eye is a billionaire recluse with trauma and guilt. Marxist analysis of him can be done, but is comparatively pointless.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:39 No. 1104
>>1077 that has to be ironic
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:39 No. 1107
I'd recommend the left take back Superman since he works in that sort of populist mindset. That being said I'd be worried about the comparison to the fascist concept of ubermen or whatever.
sage 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:39 No. 1108
>>1105 >>1106 >t.no reading comprehension LOL
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:39 No. 1109
>>932 Well about capeshit, I know the story of a FB group that one time started to talk about doing vigilanterism, the next day a guy posted some news about a teenager getting killed in an armed robberie while masked.
sage 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:39 No. 1113
>>1109 Look, for anyone looking for a relatively realistic look on IRL vigilantism and how it turns out watch Bronson's Death Wish 1 and 2.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:41 No. 1126
>>1107 I'm straight up disappointed that Zack Snyder didn't make some kind of reference to Superman as an Übermensch fantasy in contrast with Jesse Eisenberg as a Jewish Lex Luthor.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:41 No. 1130
>>1107 >he works in that sort of populist mindset Are you kidding me? He is a epitome of "le uberhuman" where his own superpowerdness is so OP that he should be able to solve 90% of major crime by simply over-hearing conversations from the atmosphere and observing everyone simultaneously as his own feats have shown. He is fast enough to act on everything too and shockwaves are near non-existent in superhuman comics except when needed for an effective action shot (otherwise Superman would tear space-time or create blackholes everytime he flew FTL or did other ridiculous shit). He is the most Gary Stu character to exist and his only limit is his "american way" to the point where this is parodied and mocked. The majority of super-heroes are ideologically incompatible with socialism. More villains are ideologically leftist.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:42 No. 1133
>>1130 >The majority of super-heroes are ideologically incompatible with socialism. More villains are ideologically leftist. There is an interesting cultural take on American mass culture in Russia, and on the superheroes in particular.
One interesting take is "An epic of Predator" by Leo Kaganov. It describes an interaction between "absolute collectivist" alien race, "absolute individualist-predators" and humans.
In particular, collectivists and humans try to understand the other races, and have some contact with each other. To quote it:
"The lone Hero only exists in the epics of predators. It is so because the hero isn't someone who is stronger than some enemy. Hero is someone who is the strongest among his group. He is unrivaled in what he does, thus the heroes of predators act alone"
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:42 No. 1134
>>1133 >"An epic of Predator" by Leo Kaganov Despite being Russian and well acquainted with the alien/predator fanbase there, I have never heard of this, quite interesting. Although I feel like the idea that aliens are absolute collectivists is slightly erroneous since they do have social heirarchies
(Drone-> Warrior-> Praetoran-> Queen-> Empress).
That last bit about predator is really interesting though.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:42 No. 1136
>>1133 It's not just superheroes, but protagonists in general. In most contemporary western fiction, the antagonist is proactive and the protagonist is reactive or even outright reactionary. Protecting the status quo is the most common "heroic" motivation in popular media. Usually when you have a proactive protagonist, they're also a villain, like in Breaking Bad.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:42 No. 1139
>>1136 >Protecting the status quo is the most common "heroic" motivation in popular media. That's more MODERN Western media. A lot of works I have read of Western film and literature have been protagonists who are NOT 'status quo'. For example Spartacus or Ben Hur or Huckleberry Finn etc. Obviously shit like Tom Clancy or James Bond is status Quo but that's more modern pop-culture.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:42 No. 1141
>>1139 >That's more MODERN Western media. I said "contemporary western fiction." You're right there's plenty of history to the contrary.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:42 No. 1142
>>1141 >contemporary western fiction Ah, well many 'leftists' tend to use "contemporary" to encompass the entire 20th century TBH.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:43 No. 1146
>>1130 >Most villains are ideologically leftist. Now this is a hot take if I ever saw one. Mind expanding on that?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:43 No. 1147
>>1146 A lot of the more nuanced villains of superhero stories are leftist or have some sort of leftist ideology.
- Joker, especially in the recent film, is essentially an example of when one of the working class shatters and goes nuts from the crush of capitalism essentially embodying the metaphysical alienation and urge to lash out and do SOMETHING caused by wage-slavery.
- MCU Whiplash was the result of a scientist being essentially thrown out to die after helping create the Arc Reactor and his son seeking vengeance and to gain what his fathers labor had rightfully deserved but was taken.
https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Whiplash - Sandman from Spiderman 3. Guy was put in prison for what amounted to man slaughter after his need to support himself and his family drove him to crime.
- Eddy Brock (Venom) was just a photographer and journalist who ended up being in the wrong place(s) at the wrong time(s) and ended up jobless and with nowhere to go.
- Remont 4 or six depending on publication are literally ex-soviet supers who revolt against the de-sovietization of Russia and want to return the USSR to the days of Stalin.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Remont_4_(Earth-616) - Garou from One Punch Man is ironically an idealist who sympathizes with monsters only because the concept of Heroes is so oppressing.
- Stain from My Hero Academia is a hero-killer who despises heroes because they're 'fake' pretending to be noble and instead just playing at being responsible for others.
The list goes on but you get my point
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:43 No. 1150
>>1130 >The majority of super-heroes are ideologically incompatible with socialism. More villains are ideologically leftist. Reckon that’s why always liked villains more.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:43 No. 1151
>>1147 Those characters got fucked over by capitalism or society but that isn't enough to consider them leftist (remember that even fascists claim to be against capitalism)
Plus you're only talking about their origins or what turned them into villains in the first place. Take the Joker for example, there's nothing leftist about crippling women or beating children to death.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:43 No. 1152
>>1151 >nothing leftist about crippling women or beating children to death. Not what I said. His actions may not be leftist, but what he represents is ideologically. Even a reactionary character can be ideologically leftist because of their role in dialectical analysis. Joker is a representation of the working class under pressure, who are disorganized and want to get justice, instead lashing out at everyone and everything else BUT those responsible.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:44 No. 1155
>>1142 In common usage "contemporary" is just "from the same time [as us in this case].
""Modern" encompasses as far back as 1500.
>>1150 Villains are also more proactive and therefore more driven necessarily.
Because they're not primarily a template to project yourself onto, they're more suitable for an interesting personality.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:44 No. 1156
>>1155 >they're not primarily a template to project yourself onto, they're more suitable for an interesting personality. That's assuming a person has a disinteresting personality or can't relate to villains
>>1155 I know, just pointing out the word's misuse by radlibs.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:44 No. 1159
>>1151 >>1152 >>1147 On the topic of Joker, the moment non-liberal leftists pointed out the semi-socialist ideas of the film, rightoids began clenching. Case in point - Joe Coon:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/33370995/ For the ones without an account or wanting to look at this site basically he liked the movie and how well it was made BUT, despite how he likes that it "triggers the libtards" it's totally not leftist
>THE "SOCIALIST" MESSAGE: CUT. THE. CRAP. this movie ain't pro socialism, or anti rich….BANE WAS A SOCIALIST ASSWIPE IN DARK KNIGHT RISES. there is no "LEFT WING" message in this movie, at all. it's simple. RICH PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS SEE NON RICH PEOPLE AS LESS, AND NON RICH PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS SEE RICH PEOPLE AS MONSTERS WITHOUT A SOUL. so. yeah….this movie is not anti rich nor pro poor propaganda….whoever says that….is so many kinds of wrong. >Translation N-no! it's not pro-socialist, it just shows you that rich people are shit who look down on us and are deservedly disliked! You're just wrong *tide goes in and out*. Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:45 No. 1170
>>1156 >That's assuming a person has a disinteresting personality or can't relate to villains You're thinking too individuallistically. The characters are meant to be consumed by a wide audience. Making a character bland and generic is meant to make them relatable to as many people as possible.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:45 No. 1171
>>1170 >Making a character bland and generic is meant to make them relatable to as many people as possible. that's just shit writing TBH. There are plenty of protagonists who are multifaceted and have appeal to different people without being flat and boring.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:45 No. 1172
>>1171 Yeah but the works those characters appear in weren't focus grouped to death and directed by passionless empty suits.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:45 No. 1176
>>1172 >focus grouped to death and directed by passionless empty suits. Aye that's true, too many good film ideas castrated by this.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:46 No. 1180
What does everyone here think of The Boys?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:46 No. 1181
>>1180 I read through the whole series this summer and the whole time I was conflicted, I liked some of the themes like corporate power is bad, government is corrupted by capital, power corrupts etc etc but I couldn't parse wtf Ennis was trying to say beyond that. Vasili was rad tho
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:38:46 No. 1185
>>1180 10/10 would crack open a cold one with
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:39:25 No. 1564
>>1563 >the Tiananmen Square copypasta in comic form Yikes
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:39:25 No. 1565
>>1563 This is pretty much an idealistic version of crime. It’s not a systemic problem but just something the rich can just deal with ease.
His Superman story was no better, where good ol’ Supes think he could just play Green Peace and relief hunger and only Le Big Bad Dictator that “totally isn’t funded by the US of A”.
It’s laughably liberal.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:39:28 No. 1605
>>932 Fuck Capeshit. The Watchmen stripped the genre of its pretension.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:39:30 No. 1623
>>1605 Gotta disagree with you there, bro. Moore's intention with Watchmen wasn't to destroy and BTFO cape comics forever. No, he loved them. He just wanted to display why taking them overly seriously was absurd. However most people think he was eviscerating them and that comics need to be taken more seriously.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:39:31 No. 1643
>>1605 >>1623 >Moore's intention with Watchmen wasn't to destroy and BTFO cape comics forever. No, he loved them. Pretty much this, dude's a radlib larping as an anarchist magician. Just read his pitch for twilight of the superheroes to see his "anti-capitalist" phase only happened after DC fucked him over with Watchmen.
https://archive.org/stream/TwilightOfTheSuperheroes/TwilightOfTheSuperheroes_djvu.txt >It would provide a strong and resonant springboard from which to launch a number of new series or with which to revitalize old ones again in a manner that was not obviously crassly exploitative so as to insult the reader's intelligence. With an eye to the merchandising that Marvel managed to spin out of Secret Wars, I think it's safe to assume that if it were possible to credibly spin role playing games, toys, "Waiting for Twilight" posters and T-shirts and badges and all the rest of that stuff from the title, then that would be a good idea too. Ideally, it might even be possible, while appealing to the diehard superhero junkie, to produce a central story idea simple, powerful and resonant enough to bear translation to other media. I mean, I know that I'm probably still intoxicated by the Watchmen deal, but it never hurts to allow for these things as a possibility, does it? Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:40:39 No. 2383
>MFW there is a Joker thread when this thread exists
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:29 No. 4836
>>1147 >Stain from My Hero Academia is a hero-killer who despises heroes because they're 'fake' pretending to be noble and instead just playing at being responsible for others. Stain complains about fake heroes but in the context of the series we are shown practically 0 malicious "Pro Heroes". The only Pro Hero who was shown to be a bad person is Endeavor, who from the get go his distinction as a "Bad Person, Good Hero" was made very clear and later on got a redemption arc focused on trying to atone his wrongdoing. He was a very lazy critique of heroes who has no ground to stand on when contextually the Pro Heroes of MHA are some of the altruistic and self-sacrificing cast of characters, like, ever.
An analysis of the Metahuman Liberation Army/Paranormal Liberation Army would be something worth discussing. For those who don't follow MHA, the later arcs introduced a revolutionary group as secondary antagonists to the main villains, and framed the revolutionaires as crazed cultists because their main belief was "All humans have a right to freely use their superpowers", a position that's criticized and brought up throughout the series.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:30 No. 4845
>>4836 Yo,
you seem to know a lot about MHA.
Is that show political or something?
I maybe imagining things but some stuff about the show seems to hint at evil gommunism :DD or some shit.
The villains call themselves comrades. As the other anon said the villains kinda sound lefty aligned since their complaints of the heroes being materialistic and capitalizing on their quirks.
And the main hero is a Strong american-esque figure which is anti-communist.
And the main bad guy "All for one" is sort of what normies think communism is "no freedumbs, no muh toothpaste choices all of us will work day and night for ebil dictators n shiet"
I might be just reading into it because I saw a little politics in the show of how much respect cops are given in it and how much almost every character hates the media. Very fun show though.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:30 No. 4847
>>4845 Like all Superhero shows, the presence of super-abilities leads to a somewhat right-wing ideological story, like Sky High or other shit.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:30 No. 4848
>>4836 >in the context of the series we are shown practically 0 malicious "Pro Heroes" Well considering how early into the story Stain is introduced and then removed, that's a poor argument. Further on we get more evidence of such shitty "heroes" and Bakugous explosive attitude and actions as well as his utter disregard for others (considering quirkless people to be worthless and that people who are less powerful to be worthless. His heroics are more out of a sense of "being cool" and twisted guilt-tripping, rather than anything else.
Anyway, my example of Stain was just that, an example of leftist ideological ideas demonstrated by Supervillains, how well its written is another matter. After all, Remont 4 (or 6) are written as stereotypical evil sovjets.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:30 No. 4849
>>4845 It depends on how much you read into the subtext of the setting.
On the surface it's a story focused on kids going to a top ivy league military academy guaranteed to land them work with the top "heroes" of the country and constantly fight off a group of social outcasts working proactively to change society because they were wronged by it in some capacity. However, in terms of substance there's not much to pick at because the series doesn't dive into the workings of the setting's government or economy much. All that's effectively explained is the Hero Agency system, which even though they are government paid, operate more like efficient neighborhood watch groups and community self defense.
All For One isn't much of an allegory for communism, he's depicted much more as a populist fascist. Basically the equivalent of Nazis calling themselves socialist and using their talking points. What you have to keep in mind with all the villain groups of the series is that despite their parallels to communism/socialist/leftist ideology, the endgoal for nearly all of them is overthrowing society to instate a neofeudal state and crown themselves ruler of the country. Many don't have an interest in helping any population or correcting the wrongdoings that turned them to villainy, they're just destruction or power hungry.
Hell, the My Villain arc was really about the revolutionary group, the MLA, failing to defeat the domestic terrorist League of Villains group and having their movement highjacked by them and their goals changed from "Quirk Liberation/Free Usage" to "Complete Destruction of Society". Whether that's a condemnation or word of warning about how all revolutionary groups will turn into terrorist insurrectionists only interested in destruction depends on how you interpret it and how the remainder of the series plays out.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:31 No. 4862
>>4849 This convo belongs more in the Joker thread, no?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:35 No. 4892
>>4849 >>4847 Thank you anons.
Both of your viewpoints were helpful to my understanding of this show.
I also started reading My Hero Academia Vigilantes and liked it after the first chapter.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:36 No. 4898
Fuck yeah the Snydercut got confirmed
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:37 No. 4906
>>4903 Holy shit, is that a real excerpt?!
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:38 No. 4914
>>1298 Honestly don't see how people don't see your point without being purposefully obtuse. I know the "People's Billionaire" is a annoying as fuck stereotype in fiction, but you can't push Batman any more left than writing him as a person using INHERITED wealth to fuck over billionaires and government pillaging his city(unless you wish to change Batman's background that he comes from a wealthy family, could work, but then you get the "Hey how'd he fund all his crime fighting" fags).
This isn't to mention there's been plenty of writers who attempted their best to fix Batman's inherit class traitor traits by saying Wayne Enterprises gives practically all their non-Batman related funds to charities and nonprofits or even silly shit like crime in Gotham will never end because the city is literally cursed so Batman has no choice but to go and kick ass.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:42 No. 4952
>>2633 lmao never change
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80X0pbCV_t4 Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:42 No. 4959
>>4952 At least it wasn't the coffee joke again
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:42 No. 4961
>>4906 Yes, O'Neil is based.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:44 No. 4973
>>4849 >What you have to keep in mind with all the villain groups of the series is that despite their parallels to communism/socialist/leftist ideology, the endgoal for nearly all of them is overthrowing society to instate a neofeudal state and crown themselves ruler of the country. Many don't have an interest in helping any population or correcting the wrongdoings that turned them to villainy, they're just destruction or power hungry Except this is literally how liberals see communists
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:45 No. 4987
>>4901 Why should I be?
It's kino
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:44:56 No. 5088
>>5087 oh shid waaat. I remember the penguin being hot and remember nothing less.
Did wayne's dad really be an evil man in the ending? I just wish they would do a giveaway for this game on epic store
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:45:04 No. 5145
>>5088 >penguin being hot Doesn't that ruin part of his character though?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:45:05 No. 5158
>>5155 The Wall Street Connection is due to the composite themes, actions and words of Bane and his followers on the background of the previous 2 films in Nolan's series. Bane embodies violent populism and terrorism and how "Eating the Rich" is extremist and extremism isn't good. Nolan denies this connection and articles from Forbes and Rolling Stones have denied the connection to Occupy Wall Street despite the allegories one can interpret and instead argue that it is for "liberal democracy" (see the articles at
http://archive.vn/oRnt6 &
http://archive.vn/25X3a ) and this in turn receives arguments to the contrary (
http://archive.vn/Pm7Dq ).
But let's roll back and start with the first of the trilogy, Batman Begins, where Batman after the murder of his parents turns to vigilantism and begins fighting psychos-for-hire like The Scarecrow, The Mafia and Ra's al Ghul's superiority complex.
The part key here is the Mafia, Mafia-Boss Falcone approaches a surrendered Bruce Wayne and says a truth, "
Because you think you got nothing to lose. But you haven't thought it through yet. You haven't thought about your lady friend, down at the DA's office. You haven't thought about your old butler. [gestures with his gun] Bang! People from your world have so much to lose. Now, you think because your mommy and your daddy got shot, you know about the ugly side of life, but you don't. You've never tasted desperate. You're, uh, you're Bruce Wayne, the prince of Gotham. You'd have to go a thousand miles to meet someone who didn't know your name! So don't, don't come down here with your anger, trying to prove something to yourself. This is a world that you'll never understand. And you always fear what you don't understand. "
But because Falcone is a scumbag criminal this objective truth is instead seen as a smear against the rich, that they're unfairly told tht they understand nothing of the world.
This is followed in the Dark Knight with Joker, who embodied anarchy and terror with the idea that people will turn on one another in times of duress and whose actions lead a passionate criminal prosecutor Harvey Dent to become a vengeful madman himself. To negate Joker's take down of Gotham's "White Knight", Batman takes the blame, (essentially being the fall guy for public faces of 'Good', to quote Officer Gordon, "
…he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight. "
Later in the Dark Knight Rises, this cover up is revealed and reveled in by the discontented masses, eager to tear down their heroes, which is depicted as them being thankless towards their (rich) "benefactors". Bane is essentially the epitome of "sweet poisonous lies" of freedom, claiming to be good but being evil. He says fiery words, "
We take Gotham from the corrupt, the rich, the oppressors of generations who have kept you down with myths of opportunity, and we give it back to you - the people. Gotham is yours. None shall interfere, do as you please. [one of Bane's captured Tumbler Cannons blows a hole in the prison's gates, allowing his followers inside] But start by storming Blackgate and freeing the oppressed! Step forward, those who would serve! For an army will be raised. The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world that we know and endure. Courts will be convened. Spoils will be enjoyed! Blood will be shed! The police will survive, as they learn to serve true justice. This great city… it will endure. Gotham will survive. " This is a rhetoric just a bit more radical than Occupy Wall Street and close to the words of Revolutionaries, yet with Bane as the villain, the point is that his words are vilified as well, and thus so is the Wall-Street movement.
In short the entire series demonizes the Occupy Wall Street movement and other such protests and 'attacks' on corporate America.
It's why /pol/ fucking loves this movie. Its both anarchy and violence yet also condemns "de gommies"
I'd go on in more depth but it's been said far better than I can put into words in the following quote, demonstrating the crux of the issue,
"All superheroes are black sheep. But the Dark Knight has always been murkier than most. His superpowers are not an accident of birth, or of stumbling into the wrong lab at the wrong time. They're not powers at all, simply a simulation made possible by good fortune and the leisure that accompanies it. Bruce Wayne can splurge on the kit and cars to set himself up as a crime-fighting Christ substitute, plus power and glitter enough to hide his hobby. He's always been a curious idol: within aspiration because he's flesh and blood; beyond it because he's the lucky recipient of inherited wealth. So it should be no surprise that The Dark Knight Rises so firmly upholds the financial status quo. Christopher Nolan's film indulges in much guttural talk of the gap between the 99% and the 1%, but it is the former who are demonised, whose revolting actions require curbing and mutinous squeals muting. Your average Joe, it turns out, requires a benevolent, bad-ass billionaire to set him straight, to knock him sideways, if necessary. ''The Occupy Gotham movement, as organised by gargly terrorist Bane, is populated by anarchists without a cause, whose actions are fuelled by a lust for destruction, not as a corrective to an unjust world. Such self-made characters as we meet in the film are, by and large, fishy – power-grabbers hiding behind a fig-leaf of philanthropism. Even someone who earns their crust nicking other people's stuff looks agog when the masses storm posh apartments to try and redistribute a bit of bubbly.
Batman's butler-crush and bells and whistles feudalism is swallowable – it's a cartoon, right! Likewise the free pass that Wayne's Rowntree-ish gestures, disapproval of criminals and general tortured grizzling seems to allow him. But The Dark Knight Rises is a quite audaciously capitalist vision, radically conservative, radically vigilante, that advances a serious, stirring proposal that the wish-fulfilment of the wealthy is to be championed if they say they want to do good. Mitt Romney will be thrilled. What's strange is that quite so many of the rest of us seem to want to buy into it."'' - Catherine Shoard, "Dark Knight Rises: fancy a capitalist caped crusader as your superhero?", The Guardian, (July 17, 2012)
http://archive.is/Xw54R The more intelligent right-wingers were quick to respond in trying to make the idea of "don't sacrifice porky" as centrist. While also comparing Batman to George W. Bush
http://archive.is/6988n "
What passes for a right-wing movie these days is The Dark Knight Rises, which submits the rather modest premise that, irritating though the rich may be, actually killing them and taking all their stuff might be excessive. " - Chait, Jonathan (August 19, 2012). [
http://nymag.com/news/features/chait-liberal-movies-tv-2012-8/ "The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy Is on Your Screen". New York
As a reminder of how close Occupy became a revolt, I remind you of the famous 'Jump Fuckers' sign, and the hope it gives to libertarian socialists, democratic socialists and social democrats.
https://jumpyoufuckers.wordpress.com/ http://ojoecollege.blogspot.com/ As a side note I present a decent analysis of Bane and the Joker:
https://siftingthroughpatterns.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/the-ideological-dichotomy-of-the-joker-and-bane/ And 10 themes of the trilogy simplified:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/10-ways-of-looking-at-the-dark-knight-5809593 Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:45:05 No. 5160
>>5145 in telltale he's a completely different character - used to be a bourgie but his family collapsed and he ended up as a working class anarchist part of an insurgency
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:45:06 No. 5164
>>5160 wtf 🅱️ enguin is pased???
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:45:07 No. 5170
>>1180 Haven't read the comic but the show is legit 8/10
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:45:07 No. 5175
>>1180 CRINGE
Dropped it before even watching the show.
comic was edgy enough
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:45:29 No. 5372
>>932 He has other battlefields to fight.
Like how his "no kill" policy gets utterly ridiculed by American writers, going so far as to claim that it's thank to this the Batvillains exist in the first place.
Only in the US, I swear. Once the writers stop picking on him on that, he can explore other themes.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:46:02 No. 5674
>>959 so do Bill Gates and Elon Musk
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:46:19 No. 5808
>>932 If we absolutely must look at superheroes politically, it's impossible to avoid the conclusion that they're a right-wing concept inherently. Superheroes are the superior aristocrats whom we must trust to lead and protect us, the common sheep. This was basically the whole thesis in Watchmen.
Batman is particularly egregious when it comes to the failings of the superhero because he is a man who "fights" crime by dishing out punishment rather than using his VAST, VAST fortune to actually address the material causes of crime.
Sure, many Batman stories have perfunctory scenes of him donating to this or that charity, but reflecting the philosophy behind these stories, this never results in a Gotham that is anything but a dark criminal hellhole that just breeds evil by nature. This is the only way for Batman to work as a character.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:46:20 No. 5819
>>4964 how are you not gonna post the next page also the best page
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:46:20 No. 5820
>>5808 explain Spider Man then. Hated by the public, the media, the state while serving selflessly for the people and whose main enemies are generally bougie. And his personal life is definitely one of a prole (unless you count the recent Parker Industries bullshit)
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:46:20 No. 5821
>>5820 The suggestion is not that superheroes are all bourgeois or serve the interests of the bourgeois. The suggestion isn't even that Peter Parker is a "bad person". But the individualist strongman vigilante who protects the common people by unleashing violence on criminals and doing nothing else is still a conservative's ideal of a hero, not a leftist's.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:46:24 No. 5858
>>5821 I see that the mainstream version of superheroes always come with the tropes of them also being the defenders of the status quo as well. No matter what they do the world will remain the same, and anyone who wants to better the world will end up making it worse or portrayed as a villain.
Another big tent pole that holds up the concept of a superhero is the fact that criminals are either treated in a fairly non-political way where they’re formed out of a single villain’s actions and only have a minor connection to the systematic problems of society. For instance, the crime problems of Gotham in Batman Year One is all attributable to Falcone’s organized crime and not the rampant corruption of the city’s political system by large industries and the poverty caused by it. Or that Hub City in Denny O’Neil The Question although being my favorite series still continues the autistic Randian narrative started by Ditko was that the city is “evil” by a supernatural force rather being under harsh policies of Reaganomics.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:46:27 No. 5885
>>5158 >When your effortpost response gets no replies, not even a thank you Why do I even bother
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:47:27 No. 6356
>>6355 So you proved my point, Zizek's analysis reached the same conclusions that I did, and in his own words, nowhere did I copy-paste his phrases unless general social terms are somehow 'plagiarism'.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:47:29 No. 6377
So… opinions on Batwamyn and its catastrophic shitshow?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:54:03 No. 9397
>>1133 >One interesting take is "An epic of Predator" by Leo Kaganov. It describes an interaction between "absolute collectivist" alien race, "absolute individualist-predators" and humans. I know the post is nearly a year old, but link?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:54:04 No. 9405
>>962 the guys he focuses his attention on are almost exclusively mob and spree killers, he's not exactly punching down.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 04:59:29 No. 12004
There was an animated movie called Batman vs Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles which was pretty rad. Batman vs Shredder was fucking awesome and it was a fun movie over-all.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:06 No. 13215
>>1147 https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/KGBeast >The Hammer* general, angry that the Soviet government was working to better relations with the United States, sends Knyazev on an unauthorized mission to kill 10 high-ranking U.S. officials, ten key people who were involved with the United States' Strategic Defense Initiative, nicknamed the "Star Wars" program, in the hope of putting an end to it. <Despite [Gorbachev's] Soviet Government warning the United States, he successfully assassinated 7 targets
Absolute Mad lad. Reminds me of the Remont Four from Marvel Earth 616.
*The Hammer is a fictional cell in the KGB
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:08 No. 13224
>>13215 It’s so weird that this is the only villain that Batman tried to intentionally kill multiple times. In his first appearance Batman with the assistant of the CIA (of course) buried him alive. In the most recent Rebirth issue, Batman once again shot him in the neck and leave the guy in the cold for dead. The funniest thing is that this issue also had a connection to the CIA. Tom King being an ex-CIA, a literal glowie at DC.
This dude is a apotheosis of American hatred of communism.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:08 No. 13228
>>13226 It's not hard to read wikipedia m8
>Dr. Paul Kersey is a surgeon who often sees the consequences of the city's violence in the emergency room. When home intruders brutally attack his wife and young daughter, Kersey becomes obsessed with delivering vigilante justice to the perpetrators. As the anonymous slayings grab the media's attention, the public begins to wonder if the deadly avenger is a guardian angel – or the Grim Reaper itself. Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:08 No. 13230
>>1113 Only the first film has any substance, the rest are an insult to the source material.
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:08 No. 13232
>>13230 No, the second film is good too. Afterwards it does the same thing as Robocop 3-onwards
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:41 No. 13494
>Wikipedia refuses to add in Rotten Tomatoes and negative reviews because of liberal idpol disguised as "moderation" LOL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Batwoman_(TV_series)/Archive_1#Rotten_Tomatoes_Audience_score Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:41 No. 13497
>>1316 So in other words the original Optimus Prime was truly a proletarian hero plucked from the docks where he worked to lead working machines everywhere in their liberation struggle against the military-capitalist elite?
Anonymous Comrade 2020-12-21 (Mon) 05:02:41 No. 13500
>>13497 I would say so, yeah.
Anonymous 2021-02-09 (Tue) 02:36:12 No. 14144
>>932 Man trying to treat his PTSD with LARPing as vigilante but slowly worsen his psychosis while doing so.
freud Freud Anonymous 2021-02-14 (Sun) 16:29:44 No. 14206
>>932 >>937 Batman =
fashman . He's a white rich man who usurps the rule of law through violence, and is motivated by "cleaning the scum off the streets" i.e. beating up mentally ill lumpens
Anonymous 2021-02-15 (Mon) 05:54:03 No. 14210
>>14206 There's nothing wrong with beating up lumpens, they prey on the proletariat.
Anonymous 2021-02-15 (Mon) 17:05:08 No. 14218
>>14210 they are the proletariat's class ally against the bourgeoisie, unemployed are also victims of capitalism
Anonymous 2021-08-03 (Tue) 18:42:05 No. 18746
>>932 Because it's a comic book. If smart and idealistic superheroes existed in real life, especially likes of batman who can instantly expose corruption in government with his technologies, they would obviously do something more than just beating up random people in the streets. But anti-establishment comic book about revolution wouldn't be a good business decision.
Anonymous 2021-08-31 (Tue) 20:59:35 No. 19334
>>14142 Based. The sequel with Batman Beyond is also pretty good.
Anonymous 2021-09-01 (Wed) 02:21:34 No. 19389
Apparently the Robert Pattinson batman movie is borderline horror.
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