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>>2353792 >>2354826>>2354832>When Marx considered the pre-eminent capitalist power of his day (Britain) could go Communist.>Engels was glad that America took land from the "lazy mexicans">Marx wrote extensively that Irish and English workers had to work together to achieve SocialismY'know I think the continued endurance of Third Worldism lies in the fact it allows someone to be a Marxist without having to engage with any of the complexities of Marx's thought or read any of his literature. In some ways Third Worldism is to Marxism what modern American evangelicalism is to Christianity; somehow becoming its own antithesis, a pagan cult worshipping a secular ruler and transforming all virtues into vices.
Like if you read Capital or most of Marx's theoretical works, he lays his arguments out with a thesis, then evidence for that thesis, then tries to engage in counter-arguments
before they're made. He's trying to prove his point in an intellectual sense. Meanwhile the third worldist thesis lacks intellectual rigor. And to be frank
Third Worldism functions on the same level as arguments about "Degeneracy".Third Worldists only complain about the unquantifiable: "labor aristocrats" and "treats", but they cannot and do not ever explain what the critical point is when "treats" saturate a society that revolution becomes functionally impossible. Hell, they refuse to even define what "treats" are! They'll gesture vaguely towards a surplus of consumer goods but provide no quantifiable or qualitative examination of those goods. Meanwhile their counterparts, Fascists, will complain about "degeneracy" but can't ever explain
what is "degenerate" and what isn't. The Third Worldist thinks "treats" destroy revolutions and the Fascist thinks "degeneracy" destroys nations but they've got no scientific backing beyond highly individual speculation: "Gays are more accepted now than they were 50+ years ago, and that's why society is falling apart" "First worlders have more consumer goods than third worlders, and that's why revolution is impossible". It's just vague gesturing towards feelings that can be anecdotally confirmed and passed on as easily digestible memes that smother complex thought: if you feel things are worse today than they were years ago, the "degeneracy" thesis gives you a simple explanation that appears to tie a neat bow on all of modernity's problems; we're just too gay and too effeminate. Similarly, if you feel as if the revolutionary situation in America is hopeless, third worldism comes in with an easy meme that explains that it IS.
Ultimately it's up to the individual that subscribes to these silly beliefs to determine "how many treats are too many" or "what's degeneracy and what's based". Because there's zero actual backing to their claims and they've got no interest in exploring or debating them, just spreading their memes endlessly.
Finally, just like the extreme right winger revels in how their hatred of "degeneracy" atomizes them from the wider "sick" society that surrounds them; third worldists love to follow. They adore the anger their frankly stupid and obtuse beliefs 'cause, they think the visceral reaction people feel at being told they're useless or bad or sinners is evidence of the righteousness of their beliefs and not what it is; they've consciously taken a position against the world they live in to provoke a reaction from others around them. They can be the holy martyr preaching truths no one else has the guts to.
>>2354876 (me)
you didnt think theyd allow him to win, did you?
>>2354876lmao i hope this happens, not for him that would be horrible, but it would do wonders to unironically revive communism in the USA.
If they do he can stay at mine and we'll play sim city and share books, i have lots.
>>2354898I know what will solve Trump's hatred of me: MORE CONCESSIONS!
-Schumer probably
>>2354866I’m pretty sure 90% of “third worldist” in the west are feds or fed assets. Most the shit they preach is just repackaging rad liberalism from the Obama era. You’re 100% right it’s
>hey stop being ungrateful little shit there’s starving prols in Africa!The most insane thing too is even a good chunk of even unaware run of the mill reactionaries in this country want an end to imperialism (they would just call it war). The last time you could argue that imperialism was beneficial to the average American was the bush era. And even then that was basically just a giant scam to rip housing out from under the already dying “middle class”. But also, like was the Vietnam war really buying the working class off with those sweat imperialist treats? Or was it sending a bunch of Americans of all colors(more some than others) to be slaughtered an ocean away so the French could hang on to a colony?
>>2354905>”prove me wrong!”Being an asshole and acting like people have to “prove” anything t to you isn’t a motivator.
That aside I go to protests, I donate and raise money for Palestine, I talk Socialism with people and I’ve turned workers upset about their working conditions to groups like the IWW; I’ve already protested the ICE raids and promised myself that the second I see masked thugs trying to kidnap anyone I’m going to throw myself between them and the people they’re trying to get.
Meanwhile from third worldists all I’ve seen is them kicking out members from socialist orgs for rolling their eyes at “Settlers”, loudly shouting that everyone around them is a piece of shit who deserves the worst, and whining that revolution is impossible here while doing nothing to facilitate revolution elsewhere.
And let me tell you it’s a real pain in the ass to try to talk to someone about their debt and their needs only to have another person hit them with “you’re a spoiled brat and a bad person” if they show interest.
>>2354923>>2354925>>2354926Firstoids interpret the pointing out of their obvious conditions as some kinda moral indictment, instead of an impetus to change your strategy. To go lower and deeper, to reach out to the oppressed rather than the beneficiaries of oppression.
No, your white middle class suburban neighbors with 2 cars and a 401k isn't going to become revolutionary guerillas, sorry to say. You're just stirring shit in a bowl and hoping to produce gold. Or maybe you're just "organizing" in the sense that christians use religious pretext to socialize, and lying to yourselves that you're doing anything.
CPUSA upholds a social chauvinist, imperialist line on almost everything, and throats the US government while fighting against revolutionary organizing, so I really shouldn't imply that first worlders are "misguided", or "failing" at correct strategy, but come to the obvious conclusion: they're pursuing their financial and political interests as first world labor aristocrats sucking the blood of the rest of the world.
I don't hope that firstoid labor aristocrats will actually go against their own interests and change their line of procuring concessions for themselves, but it does point out the absurdity of us all being on this forum, labeled under the umbrella of the "left", even though our interests are diametrically opposed. I mean they allow anarchists on here, so no surprise.
>>2354943zionist "power" is a paper tiger
>A contest of strength encompasses not only military and economic power but also human power and moralethe western masses have turned on israel and zionism
>>2354947he does say israel should not exist as a jewish state in any two state solution though.
which kinda defeats the purpose of a "two state solution," however stupid a two state solution is, but i dont really care.
>>2354951it's even worse, cryin' chuck is a mega zionist
it's like calling a KKK member n-lover
>>2354938These people even suck as Zionists. They need to go to Israel and take a few ballistic missile impacts to toughen them up rather than going immediately to their fainting couches the moment they blow an election.
>>2354943>>2354948Believing in some overwhelming Zionist/Jewish power is a cope for losers who don't want to take responsibility for their situation or to adapt to a changing situation, while also serving up indirect apologetics for the status quo. It's pathetic and weak and a way for people to sit around all blackpilled about how everything is hopeless.
Take Fetterman for example. He looks like he's into Israel for the love of the game, and I bet AIPAC loves him too, but I don't like this attitude about how it's just AIPAC money or whatever. That is actually going too easy on him. Oh, if it wasn't for AIPAC money then Fetterman… nah he'd probably be much the same. If only he didn't take the money! Well he did, he doesn't see a problem with it, and he's responsible for the votes he makes and who he lets butter his bread.
People make choices.
>>2354962>Oh, if it wasn't for AIPAC money then Fetterman…would be bought by another lobby, and you'd be here bitching at me for pointing it out
lol
>>2354964ok? and?
??????????????/
>>2354981Just do standard communist organizing, but aimed not at the western middle class, but at the oppressed within the first world.
yes, that does mean talking to gypsies if you're a european, and talking to ghetto lumpens if you're an american
>>2354999Nobody with a mortgage and a retirement plan is "forced" to sell their labor.
"Forced" to sell their labor means they die, have to live on the streets, or go to prison if they stop. Not merely losing their assets.
>>2355014The average white youth is the child or grandson of the aforementioned PB with a mortgate and 3 cars, who is too impatient for their parents to croak
oh look, the elder millenials are already owning homes. despite all the whining.
>>2355010it's… le bad
voting does nothing, but you're not allowed to do that nothing even though it does nothing, you're supposed to stay at home and do nothing instead
t. zio/contrarian retard
>>2355025How is anything Zohran promises on doing going to lead to social revolution, the abolition of slavery? Which is the ONLY goal we should be focusing on.
>>2355022Hopefully, but I don't think it bodes well that the rejuvenated bourgeoisie you describe weren't able to stop him being elected in the primary.
>>2355029Like the seeming white third world maoist position 'thank fuck only those global southerners have revolutionary potential otherwise I'd have to get off my ass and actually do work like those global southerners have to'
Idk it seems to be an ideology for laziness to me. At that point why not just spend your time gooning to women's feet rather than hounding people for doing shit like going to protests, advocating communism, joining socialist and communist orgs
>>2355035I hope Brianna Wu gets the horrific hate crime she deserves
T. transhumanist
>>2355010I am between recommending burgers to voot or not to voot.
not vooting might delegitimize further more the concept of state. for one side. this should lead to more chaos, more violence, and the eventual fall of the regime.
but knowing how enthusiastically the burger reich is cuddling with monarchist ideas, with the thielmatrix, and the horrible number of monarchies across the world that the US has protected throughout history, not vooting and further delegitimizing the state, what could rather happen is that the ruling elites might consider declaring the US a new serfdom society, where the lords aren't elected by vooting (through the most pathetic system: indirect vote) but only as a succession by blood.
>>2355042Pf does this place auto correct the t slur to transhumanist
I'm dying
>>2355047Well he is obviously being sarcastic in to give a cheat sheet to the low reading comprehension anons:
>>2355030The whole text is funny. He basically was doing greentext before greentext.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1873/01/indifferentism.htm
> “Workers should even less desire that, as happens in the United States of America, the state whose budget is swollen by what is taken from the working class should be obliged to give primary education to the workers' children; for primary education is not complete education. It is better that working men and working women should not be able to read or write or do sums than that they should receive education from a teacher in a school run by the state. It is far better that ignorance and a working day of sixteen hours should debase the working classes than that eternal principles should be violated. >>2355051They seem pretty supportive
>>2355072FSLNanon still managing to have the most reactionary take on every possible issue
>>2354944
>”Firsties interpret the third worldist position as moralizing rather than actually a sober expression of objective facts”<“anyways, here is why you, personally, are fascists who love forcing Africans to work in slave mines.”Literally exactly what I said earlier about third worldists engaging in moralizing and deliberately contentious bullshit to act like the hostility to their ideas is because they’re “just so right” and not a deliberate attempt to antagonize on their part.
You’re genuinely just the inverse of those pedantic libertarian arguments where it’s like “well you signed a contract to work at McDonalds, meaning you value your money more than your time, so you actually DO want to work at a shitty fast food joint for $7/hr.
Too many cooks spoiling the broth
>>2355080fat chance for rethuglicans on nyc. lol. not even during the reagan era NYC switched to rethuglicans. demokkkrapers would have to fuck it up so monumentally to give rethuglicans a slim chance of competing, that nyc would have to look like the Fallout's Mojave level of disaster.
>>2355114Regardless what people say here. 2023 was a big year for the DSA, their leadership got co-opted by people with much more genuinely Marxist/Revcom sympathies. Much more centralised beliefs, almost Leninist. That to me showed promise.
I don't intend to be a member of either the DSA or the PSL until one of them becomes a more genuine political force. Until them I just think its prudent to support both and organise independently.
Good article, shows Zohrans beliefs thus far.
https://www.leftvoice.org/zohran-mamdanis-primary-win-what-does-it-mean-for-the-left/I will say, I do not know if Zohran is diluting his ideals to be elected or not.
>>2355137>They've adopted the use of 'Pali' a lot like one would use Paki in every respect but about Palestinians.No one says that.
>>2355134>Do Americans say "Paki"No one says that either.
>>2355016In 2023, the estimated average GDP per capita (PPP) of all of the countries was Int$22,452.
If you earn more than that, you're a net exploiter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita >>2355077I never called you a fascist and it's telling that you have to make up quotes to get mad at, but in general if you want to not be called a fascist, try not being part of an explicitly social chauvinist organization like the CPUSA
petty booj labor aristocrats are always so hysterical when defending their petty interests, it's really something
>>2355150>you're a net exploiterWhy even speak like this?
>>2355158>>not income>>let alone relationship to the means of productionWhy are you separating them you pseud retard? Income is part of bourgeois relations.
>>2355162>Why are you separating didn't
>them you pseud retard? not needed
>Income is part of bourgeois relations.to an extent yes having an income far above subsistence puts you in a petty bourgeois strata but it still isn't the same as directly exploiting by owning means of production and hiring people to work for you.
>>2355171>to an extent yes having an income far above subsistence puts you in a petty bourgeois strataI agree as I also called out the other poster in the same post.
>but it still isn't the same as directly exploiting by owning means of production and hiring people to work for you.Nah, to the proletariat all the bourgeois are the same shit, small or big.
>>2355174I hate third worldist retards so much. All capital is global, you're complaining about irrelevant shit.
>>2355086>>2355093I think the plot twist with one-party states like New York is that the Republicans also like to run as Democrats (or independents) and pull a switcheroo on people, because the Democratic primary in NYC is de facto the general election.
>>2355121>>2355124>>2355128From what I know about the DSA, the national organization is basically useless and serves as more of a brand for local initiatives. Mamdani's victory really then is a victory for NYC-DSA. So you can get the MUG people who have some Leninist-Trotskyist beliefs in centralism, but it doesn't mean anything. Like they unendorsed AOC but the NYC-DSA can just ignore them if they want to.
>>2355180>use the languageWho cares? Are you not smart enough to easily differentiate between the two?
>mr. MDE reaction picI took the first image I got off some 4cuck archive LOL
>>2355178>bringing up MarxI literally stole that quote from Marx. Sorry, are proletarians not against class society as a whole now?
>Well I suppose it doesn't matter because Marx wasn't a proletarian. Neither was Lenin, Castro, or Engels.Now you're just pissing your pants over nothing.
>>2355204yes.
aside from the internally colonized, oppressed and segregated communities within the developed countries, such as black people, the indigenous, migrant workers, lumpenized populations, etc.
>>2355210the proletariat being a minority in developed countries doesnt make it not exist nor is the proletariat supposed to be a majority for a revolution to happen anyway
on the same subject proletarians of """""third world""""" countries also buy products made by other proletarians from the same country and similar, what are you even trying to argue here
>>2355219capital is fully developed everywhere, you dont get to call countries semifeudal based on vibes
>>2355220i mean the middle class isnt revolutionary literally anywhere, why focus on nyc or wherever
>>2355221because only in the west is the "middle class" half the population
in the rest of the world, "middle class" level of comfort / qol is a minority
>>2355202Except I didn’t. Which makes the anon getting pedantic over not explicitly calling me a fascist absurd; it’s rigid definitions expected of one party and just playing fast and loose with another.
The reality is that third worldists are just acting out some moralistic play. It’s not dialectical and it isn’t Marxist—at once Russia was known as the “jailer of Europe” but third worldists act like it was some undeveloped wholesome chungus victim of colonization. It practiced settler-colonialism and imperialism as other countries had, but third worldists try to mystify and orientalize it.
Thing is we’d have a lot less quibbles with third worldists if they did anything, but from ICE to BLM to Palestine they have every opportunity to put their money where their mouth is, but mysteriously they vanish. They only appear when it comes time to smugly assert they’re better than everyone.
>>2355221>vibeslol, lmao even
<In the Global South, India is home to the world’s largest peasantry, [1] with about 55 percent of the total workforce directly dependent on agriculture for their livelihood.source
CADTM
https://www.cadtm.orgPeasants and Politics in Neoliberal India: The 2020-21 Peasant Movement
>>2355059>>2355063>>2355066>>2355073>>2355223zohran is neither a socialist, communist, or anti-zionist
stop manufacturing consent firstoid hitlerite uyghurs
>>2355252War is based.
Landlordism is slavery.
Israel is cringe.
>>2355234>peasantry is when working on a farmholy fucking retard LMFAO
theres no peasant or serf or whatever, wage labor is the basis of agriculture everywhere on the basis of accumulation of value to be competitive, it is completely bourgeois thus the only class relations that emerge are bourgeois (haute or pb) and proletarian. not everything has to resemble western europe or the US to be bourgeois
this misunderstanding of the context where "semifeudal" can be applied is wrong and a baseline underlying a lot of the issues with MLM
>>2355258Nice.
>>2355270Average YPG cadre
>>2355211>The enthusiasm around this dude reminds me of Syriza, people are setting themselves for a nasty disapointment.The greater the rise the more the eventual disillusionment? Everything turns to its opposite that's dialectics. He is a talented speaker, but I start catching myself when watching people just cooming over him. I have enough of a cynical, anti-social imageboard side of my personality to be like, okay, that's enough for me.
>>2355231>The reality is that third worldists are just acting out some moralistic play. It’s not dialectical and it isn’t Marxist—at once Russia was known as the “jailer of Europe” but third worldists act like it was some undeveloped wholesome chungus victim of colonization.I agee that it's a morality play. I think in the past it was more apparent how Western imperialism and colonialism were in league with local feudal lords in colonized countries, so the left had an easier time combining anti-imperialism with anti-traditionalism and a critical attitude towards a kind of "native backwardness" or however you want to call it. But the left began splitting up, and the part of it that stuck to the social and political values of it are like Greta Thunberg types in their most moral form, while others turned into NGO-type Soros Matrix people. But a smaller wing of it that you see here doubled down on hating da West. Love to hate da West, baby. I don't actually see many proper "third worldists" but more these jungle gang people who are obsessed with geopolitics and the "game of nations" so they throw in with the Assadists and stuff like that, because that's the side they want to win.
>>2355296how can you betray 2 policies
this is a mayor we're discussing not a president
>>2355279>subsistence agriculture>bourgeoiswhy do you write so confidently on things that are above your understanding
there is no accumulation going on here: if one of these farmers needs 1 unit of production to survive, and produces 3, the landlord charges 2 units as rent. if there were capitalists trying to rent the land to do agribusiness then you would have an agricultural real estate market like in the developed world where land is just an asset and farming is just a job
>>2355303>why do you write so confidently on things that are above your understandingLOL faggot you are here claiming semifeudalism still exists anywhere today
>there is no accumulation going on heretheyre poorer because theyre bourgeois and uncompetitive against bigger landed estates and foreign agricultural production, necessitating protection by the state, not because theyre not bourgeois
>>2355279>wage labor is the basis of agriculture everywhereThis is absolutely untrue. The peasantry as a class still exists in many countries especially amoung indigenous peoples.
<Peasants in India broadly represent a vast mass of landless agricultural labourers, sharecroppers, tenants, poor artisans and small and marginal cultivators having a close social interface with the socially deprived, such as the scheduled tribes, scheduled castes, other backward classes and women. The so-
called "outcastes" of the Varna hierarchy in the real sense of
the term form the core of the peasantry in rural India. In the localised vocabulary, peasants are denoted by terms like "kisan", "krishak", "roytu", "chashi", etc, more or less indicating cultivators who cultivate land with their own labour, and also the categories, namely, "adhiar" and "bhagchashi" (sharecropper and tenant) and "majdoor", "majur", "collie", "pait", "krishi" "shramik", etc, agricultural labourers. These terms signify specific cultural connotations to indicate the marginalised and inferior status of peasantry in Indian society. The age-old association between this lowest ritual status and low economic position has always provided a basis for their socio-economic marginalisation, political dis-empowerment. Thus peasants are a socially and economically marginalised, culturally subjugated and politically dis-empowered social groups who are attached to land to eke out a subsistence living
Source:
Peasant Movements in Contemporary India: Emerging Forms of Domination and Resistance
>>2355309maoists are so retarded bruh
the perseverance of castes isnt a substantial argument either. thats like saying every country that is still religious today is semifeudal since bourgeois revolutions in western europe were anti theocratic. is britain semifeudal because they got a monarchy?
>>2355296DSA types love to say that the democrats "tried to destroy him" so they can pretend they're not voting for a democrat as if the democrats couldn't just expel him from the party if they really were so determined to get rid of him for whatever reason.
It was funny when they got apoplectic with rage at somebody merely pointing out that he will be the head of the NYPD when elected.
https://twitter.com/GMomurder/status/1932970035804602527Replies here are classic.
>>2355305>theyre poorer because theyre bourgeois and uncompetitivethey are poor and they are obviously not competitive - regardless of if they are bourgeois or not, you are mentally retarded for implying otherwise
>necessitating protection by the stateyou mean charity? so subsistence farmers are bourgeois because the state has to save them from starvation?
>they are … because they are bourgeois, not because they are not bourgeoisnegation is not an argument. are you even reading your posts
>>2355310Maoist Turd Worldism is all about a "class" structure of poor, less competitively industrialised countries on the "receiving end" of "unequal exchange" (peasantry in 2025, "comprador" bourgeoisie juxtaposed against protectionist national bourgeois, etc). It's pure nonsense all around.
These people care more about obsessing over le "peasantry" when there are actual struggles to be empowered among the workers to dissipate the bourgeois "national vs foreign exploitation" false consciousness and defend their independent class interests, e.g. wage demands in the CBA. They still think that the reason there's no proletarian movement anywhere in le holy Global South(tm) is because there is still a peasantry to win over (these farmers are either landed or just wage labourers, kek).
Everything they claim to be protecting amongst the "peasantry" are proletarian or semi-proletarian conditions such as wage-labour/piecework and expropriation into borderline or outright reservelessness crammed into dirty slums. The landed farmers who get roped in are the most reactionary strata of these countries whose interests are most deeply sown in nationalism than any other, along with the middle men traders.
Hilarious hilarious stuff.
>>2355297come to think of it, NYC has a bigger population than countries like Bulgaria, Serbia, Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Norway, Ireland, Croatia, Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, Lithuania, North Macedonia, Slovenia, Latvia, Kosovo, Estonia, Cyprus, Montenegro, Luxembourg, Malta, Iceland, Jersey, Isle of Man, Andorra, Guernsey, Faroe Islands, Monaco, Liechtenstein, and others not worth mentioning. So Mayor of NYC governs more people than some heads of state.
>>2355311lmao.
>if the democrats couldn't just expel him from the party if they really were so determined to get rid of him for whatever reason.that's the demokkkrat trap: pretend some change is possible, then when the conmen "betrays" those illusions of change, the dsas will scream treason as he they weren't using the dnc platform to get exactly what they asked for.
>>2355321Why are you adding a "therefore" where there's none? Channers are such illiterate retards they can't argue without making shit up.
I'm now understanding why this shithole is filled with dogshit posts when a position like "the peasantry doesn't exist under fully developed capitalism" is controversial. In all countries where peasants existed prior to the development of civil (bourgeois) society, the peasants were absorbed into the proletariat after being stripped of their land, or became free capitalist farmers themselves.
>>2355323>proletarians joining to demand their workplace for higher wages is not communism but some pseud bullshit about peasantry isDo you even understand how class association works?
>>2355184>I literally stole that quote from Marx.I know glowtard.
>Sorry, are proletarians not against class society as a whole now?Not the discussion
>Now you're just pissing your pants over nothing.another lazy misdirection
>>23553251. what percentage of taxes paid by the residents go to the city government instead of the upper levels of government
2. what discretionary powers does the mayor have compared to the upper levels
be smarter, don't use empty words like "governs"
>>2355329the only reason proletarians in capitalist countries ever got higher wages was because the USSR was around
the "strong unions" did nothing, sorry to shatter your firstie delusions. the concessions were easily taken away without a fight the moment the USSR was gone
>>2355346haz is definitely not one of us the ACP do
>does literally no activismahhhhhh
>>2355329>Why are you adding a "therefore"I'm summarizing your point, not my fault you lost that faculty from prolonged AI use
>Channerswhy are you talking about yourself in the third person, you are ban evading on a chan, you are even more antisocial and mentally ill than the average user here
>developed capitalism implies no peasants>therefore any place I call "developed capitalism" must be devoid of peasantsagain, negation is not an argument, if that's your definition of developed capitalism then you can't call a place with peasants developed capitalism, regardless of vibes. conversely, calling a place "developed capitalism" isn't proof that there aren't peasants there, you have to prove that there aren't before calling the place that
>>2355310>thats like saying every country that is still religious today is semifeudal since bourgeois revolutions in western europe were anti theocraticThe only one saying that retardation is you dumbass.
>is britain semifeudal because they got a monarchy?Jfc, a first world capitalist imperialist deindustrialized state is not the same as a massive agricultural and industrializing capitalist state. A for show monarchy and ingrained caste system are not the same in terms of how thier relative presence within the superstructure affects the people's of the respective nations.
>>2355317Not a turd worldist either but your hatred of the peasantry (a class that has always been historically linked with the proletariat in overthrowing the capitalist class and monarchy) exposes yourself as an idealist leftcom who will never see revolution because when actual revolution is show to you through the rightous fight of an armed proletariat under a militant communist party and peaseantry fighting thier oppressors all you see are "bandits" and "terror". You are blinded by aristocratic bourgeois thought.
>>2355348first you said "even by his own admission he wasnt a marxist" which was false as he never said that. he also said
"It will be a Marxist-Leninist program conforming to the specific objective conditions of our country. That is to say, we shall adapt in our program the fundamental principles of Marxism-Leninism to our conditions. So, that is not nor is it going to be a secret, not at all. And our people, our working class agrees with that, our peasantry agrees, all honest intellectuals agree, the youth, all honest citizens of our country agree."
"It is known how fundamental is its task: to organize and to lead, through mass organizations, through its cells; and, at the same time, to organize the people in accordance with Marxist-Leninist standards of collective responsibility and leadership."
"These forces were called upon to unite in a single organization, and we organized the ORI. It was not easy, it was also a lengthy process; but, in the end, we organized the Integrated Revolutionary Organizations." "In Marxist terms, this is known as the "dictatorship of the proletariat"
https://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/archive/castro/1961/12/02.htm >>2355290Something I realized at the mention of “people with homes and 401ks becoming guerillas” is I think a good portion of third worldists might be saying less “revolution is impossible in the west” so much as “my aesthetically preferred form of revolution is impossible in the west” and the more I think of it, the more I wonder if the fetish for guerilla warfare kind of plays into some loose kind of American individualism—like people who obsess over how they’d survive a zombie apocalypse.
Now personally I don’t think an American Revolution would be some “protracted people’s war” like China. I don’t think it’d have to rely on people with 401ks grabbing their guns and going into what little woodland remains. I think it’d be a more urban development—I imagine the Russo-Ukraine war might be a fair comparison. It’d likely heavily involve conscription and formalized armies over informal guerillas; which may in fact make the right wing militia fetish some benefit to the Left because they’d be attempting a form of warfare incompatible with the one that’d likely predominate.
It’d be a much more urbanized, modern kind of war, which would make the “peasant guerilla” method unnecessary. You wouldn’t even need to make fighters out of boomers with 401ks
>>2355400Lassalle won, Bernstein won. Marx lost
keep coping marxoid
The problem is not the working class. The problem is the left. What little bit of the left exists is fragmented, disorganized, apathetic, and it projects that onto the working class. If our methods of organizing and agitating and educating don't work, then we should change them. You can't expect the working class to change for your will to make your theory work better.
I really dislike the treatlerite, like that whole concept. It's based on bad theory, poor material analysis, and it's just lazy. There's only 50 percent of Americans basically have no wealth at all. The bottom 50 percent of Americans have less wealth than your average Chinese person. The quality of life in China is higher than it is in America.
The entire concept of treatlerism is basically defending imperialism to a degree because it's saying that our quality of life, which is actually shit because we don't have universal healthcare, we don't have fucking public transport, is predicated on the imperial conquest of people in the global south. But in reality, we could have a higher quality of life in a socialist society without doing all that.
In terms of the New York City mayor race, I didn't follow it. I didn't think he was going to win. I thought they were going to rat fuck him at this stage. I think the fact that he won shows that there is a budding interest in socialism among Americans. It's just facts. And I think the fact that this guy's going to be attacked from the left shows how apathetic and how non-action oriented we are.
My bottom line… My bottom line is real simple. We have to do the work, and there's a lot of fucking work to do what has to be done. Think about if everyone was operating under that mindset, instead of going, oh, you know, they're, they're fucking, there's nothing we could do, the material conditions aren't right. Like, I really hate that mindset, and it plagues the modern left.
The fact that you have people who attack people who are actively trying to do the outreach is a huge problem because they're doing the Fed's work for them. It's big facts. I think we're on the precipice of something real, and I'm gonna be real honest, you need the militant struggle to follow the electoral victories, okay?
Somebody like that, the guy who's won the nomination for mayor, can only do so much within the system that exists because it's a capitalist system. We can't win that way, but it is important for us to have people in positions of power if we're going to do the big thing that we're trying to do in three to five years, okay? It's baby steps.
It's a lot of unseen work, because think about how much work it was to get everyone to come out for this guy. Think about what went into developing that. Think about the types of places that they're going to to do the voter drives and shit. The fact is that the online left is a fucking plague on doing any action. It is a plague on our moral, like our morale. It's a plague on being active in your community.
It's just something that I find myself more and more, as I get bigger and bigger, wanting to just remove myself from.
>>2355379BTW, Mao himself thought that a revolution in the U.S. would occur in the cities and spread outward to the countryside. There was also some basis to believe that in the 1960s considering what was going on in American cities at the time.
I think another way to think of it though is base/superstructure and all that. The evolution of human societies is interrelated with the expansion of the forces of production, and as societies come into contact with each other, they compete. Some fall behind others and risk exiting history, and no society willingly lets that happen which leads to either reform or revolution of their political, social, ideological superstructures to enable the development of the productive forces and adopt new ideas and new systems of organizing their societies. It's not automatically guaranteed that those ideas will be socialist, that's a discredited teleological ideas, it's a choice that certain countries have made in history because nothing else worked.
>Free City Buses
Who Controls It: NYC’s buses are run by the MTA (Metropolitan Transportation Authority), which is a state-level agency primarily controlled by the Governor of New York, not the Mayor.
Challenge: The mayor cannot directly set fares or make MTA policy. However, the city does contribute some funding and could advocate for fare-free buses or pilot programs, especially on select routes.
Possible Path Forward: Push for fare-free pilot zones or fund city-specific programs (e.g. for students or low-income riders), though this would require budget reshuffling or new revenue streams.
>Public Childcare
Who Controls It: The Mayor has more influence here. Programs like Pre-K for All and 3-K for All already exist and were expanded under Mayor de Blasio.
Challenge: Scaling up to full universal childcare would require significant funding and coordination with unions, providers, and City Council.
Possible Path Forward: Expansion of city-subsidized centers and increasing the number of publicly owned facilities is feasible incrementally, with strong political and community support.
>City-Owned Grocery Stores
Who Controls It: The city can, in theory, create municipal enterprises.
Challenge: Massive resistance from private grocers, real estate lobbies, and possibly legal hurdles regarding competition and procurement. Also very expensive and logistically complex.
Possible Path Forward: Start with pilot projects in food deserts or expand support for food co-ops and city-supported urban agriculture. True city-run stores would face steep political and operational barriers.
>Rent Freeze on Rent-Stabilized Units
Who Controls It: The Rent Guidelines Board (RGB) sets allowable rent increases for rent-stabilized units. The Mayor appoints members but doesn’t control it directly.
Challenge: A mayor can influence the RGB to vote for 0% increases (as de Blasio did at times), but cannot impose a freeze unilaterally.
Possible Path Forward: Strong advocacy could sway RGB appointees, but would require political capital and legal finesse. A full freeze would also face legal challenges from landlords.
>>2355447>Affordable Social Housing ConstructionWho Controls It: The Mayor has significant power over land use, public housing policy (especially via NYCHA), and city budget allocations for affordable housing.
Challenge: Building true social housing (publicly owned, de-commodified units) is politically difficult and expensive. Most NYC “affordable housing” is built via public-private partnerships, not city ownership.
Possible Path Forward: Use city-owned land, redirect subsidies from private developers to public projects, and advocate for a public housing trust or municipal housing authority focused on non-market housing. Requires City Council support and substantial budget reallocation.
>Structural LimitationsCity Council: If dominated by moderates or centrists, they could block or water down major proposals.
State Government: Many key powers (housing law, transportation, taxation) are held by the state legislature and governor.
Budget Constraints: NYC cannot run large deficits like the federal government and must balance its budget annually, limiting room for big new spending unless taxes are raised or funds reallocated.
Capital Markets: Bond ratings and credit markets can constrain large-scale public investment if fiscal policy is seen as too aggressive.
>Political RealityThe mayor’s ability to rhetorically shift the Overton window is substantial, and symbolic leadership can bring momentum to long-standing progressive goals.
Policy pilots and incremental expansions are far more likely than large-scale socialist transformations unless broader political shifts accompany the mayor’s election (e.g., more democratic socialists in the City Council and State Assembly).
A democratic socialist mayor would face serious structural constraints in fully enacting their agenda alone, but could make measurable progress on specific fronts—especially public childcare and social housing—through creative governance, coalition-building, and strategic piloting of programs.
>>2355382>implying Khruschev and Mao were at all similarThis sort of historical distortion is the reason the left is in a constant state of disarray.
>three worlds theoryThis was truly formulated post Mao and falls into Dengist revisionism.
>>2355383>cuba had central planning and nationalized its industries, agrarian reform, investments in education and health, all aligning with MLI guess most capitalist states "align with ML".
>they also supported revolutionary movements in Angola, MozambiqueBeing the mercenaries of an imperialist power in order to bring another country under the thumb of said power is not aiding revolutionary movements its the exact opposite.
>USSR was a lifeline.Yes a line wrapped around the neck of the Cuban masses.
>>2355523This is what dedication to the
larp revolution looks like
>>2355539of course they do
they want you to ignore the killing of infant children because they're ayrahb (and not the good, liberal, please come and dictate my foreign and domestic policy daddy kind)
>>2355466>tsarist Russia was the biggest victim of imperialism>>2355521The fact the ruling class needs to wave a succdem in our faces more and more often means they’re on the back foot. It was never going to be easy.
>>2355536>infinite deathsAmazing lol
>>2355555waste of quints
>>2355552should've been quints
>>2355536<Nazism6 mil dead
<Communism100 Gazillion dead!
<IslamHalo Infinite
>>2355536This is literally just a repackaged version of the most common antisemitic tropes.
These people are just straight up Nazis.
>>2355570Promise?
t. east coaster
>>2355567Ismailis are a sect of Shiism that differs with twelvers in with who they think the current Imam is (Ismailis have sectarian splits within them including Aga Khani and Nizari) due to a split in the line of Imams after the 6th Imam
There are gnostic branches of both twelver and Ismaili Shiism (irfan/tawassuf/"Sufi")
>>2355621I’d guess it’s ego. That and maybe some bizarre brain chemistry. You hear that a lot in stories of entrepreneurs—I think it was either WalMart or some other big box store that started as this mom and pop thing, and the son kept pressing for them to expand, to buy more, to compete harder, open additional stores; and the people who started the company figured they had “enough” but for the personalities that become ultra rich, there’s no thing as “enough.”
Either that or they genuinely believe if they give an inch we’ll take a mile.
>>2355639They’re told to vote a certain way and then do
Whether that’s from legacy media they still watch, their pastors, or corrupt community leaders beholden to establishment Democrats
>>2355622This was just the Democrat primary, there's still the general election.
Cuomo said he would run as an independent in the general election if he lost the primary, though maybe he gave up since Mamdani outperformed even the more optimistic polls. The former mayor, Eric Adams, is running as an independent too.
It's pretty much set up for centrist dems to ditch Mamdani in favor of one of the two corrupt neolibs.
>>2355652he loves him but bibi is a fuccboi and will break his heart </3
faggots
>>2355661Erm, based?
If technocrats seek to supplant central banks as the masters of the world, they need to offer something meaningful to people.
>>2355661I need a fucking house, Peter!
>>2355671It's apparently real but old. Look at the date.
>>2355653Mamdani wouldn't have won without a lot of normie Dems. AOC is super popular with regular Democrats now, and there has been a movement in recent days by the neolibs to move to critically support him in case he won so they're not left outside the tent pissing in. The way they've seemed to do this is meshing their "abundance" agenda (whatever the fuck that is, but it's what they have been talking about for the past few months) with Mamdani showing up on their podcasts and trying to sync with that. Like talking about making government services more "efficient."
I think Cuomo is done and won't run as an indie either.
>>2355674Anyways, I'll spare you the trouble. Every article in the results is referencing this website:
https://www.techemails.com/p/mark-zuckerberg-peter-thiel-millennialswhich provides no sources at all. It's sad how retarded the world is becoming.
>>2355677I'm sorry, it claims the source is:
>This document is from U.S. v. Microsoft (2000).But it provides no link and that doesn't make any sense.
>>2355701>>2355685>its a typo, it took me 5 secs to look it up lmaoBut wait hol up. None of that bullshit in techemails is in the NYT article. The techemails article provides no links to sources,.
This is bullshit.
>>2355666The disgusting thing about rightoids is they're often incredibly smart dudes that just happen to be extremely selfish. Thiel isn't an idiot, he knows the socially destructive consequences of his own ideology. He just values accumulating wealth above everything else in life. He's self-aware of the concept of class war and whose side he's on. He only says stuff like "appealing to the millennial doomer mindset" in the sense that they need to somehow propagandize or manipulate millennials into believing more wealth for him is good even at their own expense. He isn't advocating for housing the poor or anything remotely progressive, just shifting their messaging to make it appear that way.
Then there's rightoids like Musk who are just genuinely retarded.
>>2355725>>2355730Not really. Many times in my life I've chosen comfort or mental well-being over wealth. Example: I could've taken a near-6 figure job a few years ago working for a scummy family friend as her personal assistant but chose to remain a NEET instead because it would involve helping her evade taxes and calling cops on the homeless outside her office and other shitty things. Dunno if that's just laziness on my part or my personal convictions stopping me, but a lot of people only view money as a means to an end(comfort, stability, health, etc) while the wealthy view wealth accumulation as a power struggle for flexing on the poors.
Most people in the world, like probably 99% of people, only care about having enough money to achieve their own happiness and personal goals. More money doesn't equate to more happiness, there's diminishing returns when you have to consider balancing accumulating wealth and things like work stress or the stress of fucking over other people. Only the truly sociopathic can endlessly chase wealth with no limit.
>>2355734>i couldve lived more comfortably but i felt guilty about itthen youre a dumb fuck lol
>chose to remain a NEETlol then you already live quite comfortably??
of course its a middle classer who thinks oh if only the bourgeois were more empathetic!! all that text to just be a goofy ass
>>2355734I'm begging you to fucking read Marx instead of being a vacuous moralfag.
Capitalism is pretty simple: accumulate or die.
>>2355742>>2355741It is simpler and easier to just call it "evil". Right now, it doesn't matter exactly why the bastards do it.
They are all that is detestable about the world and must be destroyed. We are the light to purge their darkness.
>>2355744TRVKE
Everything is confined by the superstructure, you cannot do anything without engaging with the superstructure, but if you are aware of the evils within said superstructure, you can use your place in the base of that as leverage against it. Someone has to be the small business owner, someone has to be the billionaire, someone has to be the surplus army of labor.
The secret however, is that the base can alter the superstructure should the time and space give way the will. This is why *some* small business petit bourgeois types can be allies in the struggle against the super structure, especially depending on how fluid their own class position is.
"Men make their own history, but not under circumstances of their choosing." - Marx
>>2355770The American Dream according to these retards:
>Spend 40 years "accumulating wealth" and looking down on people who enjoy their life>Have a heart attack at 64 just as you were about to retire with all your wealth and finally start living lifeoops well, at least you're smarter than the rest of us I guess?
>>2355771can you ever stop using vibes as an argument? capitalism is a system of competition whether you like it or not, communism is proletarians acting in self-interest, your retarded morality is irrelevant to any critique
>99% of people are not proper citizens of bourgeois societythis HAS to be bait
>>2355736I think it's generational. Mamdani apparently (or so I read) did really, really well with the youngins in the black community. Possibly better than others in the same age group. But black boomers and atrophied political machines like Al Sharpton's bowling team are bought in to the Democratic Party establishment.
At least when I squint at it, Mamdani's coalition is like a big coalition of young people and newer immigrants who are struggling to be seen.
Oh, well if the bourgeois work hard and sell cutesy craft items maybe it's alright. Marx failed to consider this!
>>2355749>>2355763This is the nature of morality: it condemns only excesses, never the thing itself. Thus profit is permitted, but greed is forbidden; small businesses are fine, but big ones are not. You can see pretty easily how this corresponds to the conditions for petit-bourgeois emancipation.
>>2355794>I live a comfortable life.yeah of course its a pb parasite who can never argue beyond morality
>>2355793>This is the nature of morality: it condemns only excesses, never the thing itself#trvke
>>2355794See
>>2355770, there is no “good” or “bad” you are forced to do it regardless.
>>2354920TBH a forever war is a stupid idea from a PR standpoint
It wears normies down, as opposed to when it's done in shorter bursts when cheering for war is more palatable
>>2355807statements are not material
buying a yacht is not economically necessary for the billionaire
what's his name, buffet, has no more possessions than a middle class house
>>2355798I'm not forced to do it though, I can just choose not to once I am comfortable in my position in the hierarchy and spend my efforts elsewhere like advocating for those who have less than me. Call me petit-bourgeois if you want, most successful Marxists were petit-bourgeois who chose to abandon their class position.
This psychopathy of calling wealth accumulation inherent to living is exactly what people like Musk base their entire ideology around: You can solve all the world's problems by just accumulating MORE WEALTH and getting the net worth high score to enable you to solve world hunger or end all wars or build colonies on Mars. Except somehow the people who do this are never interested in that. Weird how the "play Capitalism" people are never interested in developing society beyond giving themselves more noomber.
>>2355814>This psychopathy of calling wealth accumulation inherentshut up you hysterical pseud
>to livingpretty sure the posts are saying its inherent to capitalism, not "living"
>>2354826Marx was aware of the "treatlerites" that you describe, in fact so was Proudhon and his followers.
>“If in the political struggle against the bourgeois state the workers succeed only in extracting concessions, then they are guilty of compromise; and this is contrary to eternal principles. All peaceful movements, such as those in which English and American workers have the bad habit of engaging, are therefore to be despised. Workers must not struggle to establish a legal limit to the working day, because this is to compromise with the masters, who can then only exploit them for ten or twelve hours, instead of fourteen or sixteen…"These are the same arguments that Proudhon and Bray made in the 19th century.
>The master [Proudhon] preached indifference in matters of economics – so as to protect bourgeois freedom or competition, our only guarantee. His disciples preach indifference in matters of politics – so as to protect bourgeois freedom, their only guarantee. If the early Christians, who also preached political indifferentism, needed an emperor's arm to transform themselves from oppressed into oppressors, so the modern apostles of political indifferentism do not believe that their own eternal principles impose on them abstinence from worldly pleasures and the temporal privileges of bourgeois society. However we must recognize that they display a stoicism worthy of the early Christian martyrs in supporting those fourteen or sixteen working hours such as overburden the workers in the factories.While I support the CCP, lets not pretend like Xi will be our communist version of this "Christian emperor". China is not gonna convert the entire planet to communism while you poast in the spectacle.
>Inb4 "but the middle class"Again with the Proudhonist checkers.
<[Proudhon's] Third eternal principle: 'Therefore, under the pretext of raising the working class from its condition of so-called social inferiority, it will be necessary to start by denouncing a whole class of citizens, the class of bosses, entrepreneurs, masters and bourgeois; it will be necessary to rouse workers' democracy to despise and to hate these unworthy members of the middle class>The master [Proudhon], in order to prevent the working class from escaping from its so-called social inferiority, condemns the combinations [unions] that constitute the working class as a class antagonistic to the respectable category of masters, entrepreneurs and bourgeois, who for their part certainly prefer, as does Proudhon, the state police to class antagonism. To avoid any offence to this respectable class, the good M. Proudhon recommends to the workers (up to the coming of the mutualist regime, and despite its serious disadvantages) freedom or competition, our 'only guarantee'.Marx, "political indifferentism" 1874.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1873/01/indifferentism.htmIf the working class is to be the dominant class, start acting like it. The middle classoid tards need to be graced with the strength of revolutionary and proletarian gigachad attributes. Do you not believe in the supremacy of the proletariat?
>>2355811No one said that though. The proletariat should overthrow those above them on the class hierarchy but not make the same mistakes of just accumulating wealth for themselves, as then you inevitably end up recreating class systems from the "original proles" that initiated the revolution and the proles who come after them; like what happened with the baby boomers when they were gifted all the benefits of economic prosperity and chose to keep it for themselves instead of sharing with their children.
You can make the excuse that this is just "le capitalism" but if you don't look out for your neighbor you inevitably end up with your head on a pike. It's not about morality but self-preservation and maintaining a harmonious society that necessitates wealth being used to benefit humanity as a collective and not just rampant individualism.
>>2355824So if you're not living one paycheck away from homelessness you're a comfortable middle class petit-bourgeois. Huh.
I have relatives that live in fucking shacks in the slums of a developing country and they live more "comfortably" than a lot of Americans by simply not drowning in credit card debt or being a paycheck away from homelessness. They live their lives pretty much the same every day. They own their own "home" and don't pay rent. They have video games and television and electricity. They cook their own food. They aren't afraid to see the doctor for fear of going bankrupt. Of course more money would improve their lives, but they live with significantly less stress than their "better off" peers in America. This isn't meant to idolize the humble third world prole or anything, but the way Americans view wealth and class as something inherent to the society you're born into, as something you HAVE to participate in as a condition for being American, is extremely unhealthy, and using Marx as a crutch doesn't make you right. People who aren't born for this lifestyle, you can call them "petit-bourgeois" all you want, but I'd rather be seen as a scummy expat in Thailand or Brazil living the NEET life on my meager disability benefits than be a wagie in America. Is this a privileged perspective? Yeah for sure, but it's still better than whatever sickness people like Thiel have that necessitates stepping on people for very little material gain.
>>2355845>requires one to have employeeslol no it doesnt
this has to be the most retarded and useless definition of petit bourgeois ever and i have to wonder why its so insidious in the feeble amerifat mind
apparently wealth doesnt cause people to have a stake in maintaining capitalism until they hire people, anything before that is OK!
>>2355866Wage slaves definitionally can't make enough money to get out of wage slavery, that's why it's called wage slavery, it's not just some quirky term, and that incapability is what drives them to be revolutionary against bourgeois society.
Insofar as they can make enough money to accumulate then they aren't wage slaves then.
>>2355885If you are considered petit-bourgeois by normiedom then
chances are that you are.
>>2355884highly variable does not make something subjective and we are dealing with tendencies here, i dont care about specific individual exceptions. the middle class is not revolutionary exactly because they arent dispossessed and can accumulate
>>2355887>check out of Capitalismnot beating the pb allegations
>>2355898oh true, i took it like "take the grill pill, you cant do anything anyway"
and yes I deff think about how easy it would be to be a red pill guru or some shit, which would make me actual money, hell even just dropping the whole "im a communist" think and continuing the magazine without politics would make me money but ya know that just sounds wack
>>2355979no it doesn't but you do get indirect privileges from being a member of a bourgeois or petty bourgeois families, even if you work for a wage for a living.
Marx was absolutely from a privileged strata, as any man with PhD in 1800s Germany (still Prussia when he was born) would have been. Engels was the son of a literal factory owner and inherited his father's wealth and factories and used them to fund communism. Castro used his family's plantation wealth to pay for tuition and become a lawyer which is how he became involved in public affairs before becoming one of the bearded guerillas on The Grandma.
Anyway if you think any of this is meant to insult these people that's probably my fault for failing to communicate my point clearly. I was talking about Xi Jinping actually being a prole from a prole family.
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