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>>2655550Remember, legal + illegal struggle
Remember, praxis + theory
Remember, it's not impossible
259 posts and 50 image replies omitted.>>2657717Look at all the crises that are happening around the world, where is the left? Rojava? Where is the left in Iran right now?
>>2657719Wrong. The labor aristocracy does not exist outside first world.
>>2657727The term labor aristocracy was coined or at least popularized by Lenin himself, who wrote about ''Russia's own labor aristocracy" in detail. Also, "first world" wasn't a term until mao, also fuck you you're retarded
>>2657727If you're using Lenin's definition then it does. It exists wherever there are socialists who posture as revolutionary but fall in line behind their government at the first sign of trouble. The best example of this today is probably the CPI in India. They call themselves Marxists but they immediately fell in line behind their right wing government in the most recent war with Pakistan, issuing a statement of support for the war that didn't even acknowledge India's oppression of Kashmir that was the root cause of the conflict to begin with. Why should it be any different? Some career CPI politician sitting in the Kerala state legislature will be just as unlikely to sacrifice their position for the chaos and danger of revolution as an SPD deputy in the Reichstag.
>>2657731Or I have been thinking, what influence does the left have in Europe when they have large blocs of parliaments? What the fuck are they doing? To is Anericans, having a leftist party we could vote for that actually has a siginificant share of seats in government is a distant dream, but the Euros already have that, but what are they doing with it?
>>2657718>First off going "read Lenin" without citing anythingWhat Is to Be Done? and State and Revolution are the core of Lenin's revolutionary thought.
>>2657720Mostly mixed in with liberals. Leftists are weak right now because of the dissolution of the USSR. But that doesn't change the fact of capitalism driving class conflict and communism's ability to resolve it.
>>2657733>What Is to Be Done? and State and Revolution are the core of Lenin's revolutionary thought.I read it but you should cite what part you are referencing. I don't agree with your interpretation. You can't just cite an author as argument. You can't just cite a book or a pamphlet either lol.
>>2657732I think that the American and European situations are actually pretty similar. It just appears different because of the nature of the postwar social democratic compromise in either case. In Europe social democratic parties after WW2 won elections and succeeded in passing reforms that improved the lives of workers. The same thing happened in America except that instead of new parties doing this, the Democrats simply formed an alliance with the labour movement via the New Deal. In both cases the result was the same though, since both the Democrats and European socdems simply took a major neoliberal turn in the 90s. I would argue that Europeans don't really have "left" parties in parliament any more than Americans do.
>>2657729Wrong. Read Mao. Comprador class is bourgeois, not labor aristocrat.
>>2657730>The term labor aristocracy was coined or at least popularized by Lenin himself, who wrote about ''Russia's own labor aristocracy" in detail. Also, "first world" wasn't a term until mao, also fuck you you're retardedYour semantic cannot hide that you are wrong. First world and imperialist are synonymous. Russia was imperialist, therefore you are retarded.
>>2657733>Mostly mixed in with liberals. Leftists are weak right now because of the dissolution of the USSR.And lenin did it with no USSR, funny that.
>But that doesn't change the fact of capitalism driving class conflict and communism's ability to resolve it.How does it make it likely? I could have the perfect plan for the world to solve class conflict starting today, not even waiting for some indefinite fated date, but it doesn't make it likely to happen. I don't even know how this is so hard to grasp. I feel like I am explaining that water is wet. Ok, it's a good idea, why is it going to happen?
>>2657731You, sabocat, personally should goad Mr. President DJT into a Canuck Quagmire
>>2657736Semantic? Motherfucker you're using the word wrong that's not semantics. You're literally just wrong.
>>2657737I'm sorry but what the fuck even IS your argument here?
>>2657741You're not following the conversation. I said why is a left going to magically materialize in crisis and pointed out they haven't in current crises and anon's response was:
>but communism is a really good ideaAnd I am now asking how is that a response to what I am saying. The left is not likely to abiogenerate in some future imaginary crisis anymore than in any other crisis currently ongoing. "Communism is a good idea" is not a rebuttal. That is the point we are at now.
>>2657734I'm nta, just knew what works he was referencing. Also the specific passage doesn't matter just the core argument. Specific citations are really unnecessary for most imageboard discussion imo
>>2657737>And lenin did it with no USSRThe dissolution of the USSR temporarily discredited the communism project at least in the minds of many. It took a few decade before people were wondering when the capitalist utopia was supposed to show up and why things are getting worse before there was the start of a leftist revival.
>How does it make it likely? Economic crises shows the current capitalist economic system doesn't work.
>>2657689>Ironically a Democratic president would probably have a much easier time making it workHow's about the Republicans start it and take the fall for the annexation and crackdown, and then the succeeding Dem administration emphasises how oh-very-different they are. They could orchestrate some kind of performative transition or concessions to pacify the resistance, no? I guess it's not productive to speculate
>>2657745Do you also not wipe your ass because you're going to inevitably die one day? The point of doing that is so that you dont go around smelling like ass for 80+ years before you croak. The same principle applies.
>>2657746>I'm nta, just knew what works he was referencing. Also the specific passage doesn't matter just the core argument. Specific citations are really unnecessary for most imageboard discussion imoI know that. I already said the conclusions you are drawing from the text are incorrect.
>>2657748That could possibly work, but even if it succeeded in reducing armed resistance it wouldn't erase pro-independence sentiment. An end to the kind of crackdowns that would fuel armed resistance would likely lead to a large independence movement that would operate legally likely have an easy time organizing unarmed opposition, winning local elections, etc. At that point you might just end up with a Canadian "state" government that would simply secede and start the whole mess all over again. People here simply don't want to be Americans.
>>2657752motherfucker we literally are, dumbass. The DSA, CPUSA, PSL, union membership, general socialist acceptance, and
out and open socialist politicians winning elections like in NYC are growing in numbers and membership.
>>2657757In other words: we have more than enough people educated and ready to go at a moments notice to form the vanguard, and all we would need next is a revolutionary break such as something akin to a civil war or state secession.
>>2657757>>2657752>duuuude the vibes are right! leftoid politicians are cool!!! people are fine with the vaguest term there is: socialism!!!!!uh ok cool but wheres the communist movement lol
>>2657754>I already said the conclusions you are drawing from the text are incorrect.How so? He lays down basic organizational principles on how to build and seize power. Those principles apply no matter the current popularity of communism among the workers.
>>2657758>form the vanguardlol you have no idea what the vanguard is
every time i unhide this shitty thread every post is retarded lmao
>>2657761I'll have you know I saw an anarchist burning a trashcan recently
>>2657746>The dissolution of the USSR temporarily discredited the communism project at least in the minds of many. It took a few decade before people were wondering when the capitalist utopia was supposed to show up and why things are getting worse before there was the start of a leftist revival.The left has always failed in developed countries. The Western left were a joke when the USSR existed too. I think that is the elephant in the room with leftist dogma. Marx was predicting the proletariat rising up in the developed west, but communist revolutions have only ever succeeded in backwards feudal states or colonies, Vietnam, Ethiopia, Russua, China. It has only ever failed in the west. The Germans came closest and still abject failure. The likliehood of repeating anything big as the leftist movements of Europe or America are highly unlikely and even they ultimately led to nothing.
I think if leftists want to get anywhere they should, maybe, abalyze the naterial conditions tgey live in inatead of like 19th century Russia or China.
>>2657757Yes yes we are doing so well with electoralism that there's no reason to worry about fascist violence!
Not a single organization you listed would support armed struggle or even direct actions like sabotage, in order to preserve their ability to engage with electoralism. All of the organizations you listed would immediately and totally disavow these tactics, the groups that use them, and workers that organized them, if these tactics do arise naturally from the proletariat's struggle.
These groups will disavow, and provide no material or propaganda support for those engaged in higher levels of struggle, and while those people are engaged in this higher level of struggle, the capitalist media will slander them in any way they can. This will almost certainly work to severe the struggle from the masses, effectively destroying any potential for revolution.
Western marxists will continue to wait for their promised rapture, and collect those sweet sweet checks while they do so.
All the while, the state could, at anytime, simply kill these people whom are engaging in electoralism.
>>2657762>How so? He lays down basic organizational principles on how to build and seize power. Those principles apply no matter the current popularity of communism among the workers.What does that have to do with the topic of discussion?
>>2657757Peak evidence of socialism being the bourgeois ideology as opposed to communism, the real movement.
>DSA, CPUSA, PSLTheir programmes are not even remotely communist, it's nothing but welfarism and civil rights and other democratic nonsense.
>union membershipIrrelevant, especially in the US. Plus unions aren't revolutionary by themselves. Hell, most union organizers are middle-class losers who preach to proletarians about what socialism should be.
>general socialist acceptance>out and open socialist politicians winning elections like in NYCAKA people from
all classes want welfare to save them.
What the fuck, we already lived in a communist world and nobody told me?
>>2657766I want everyone here to think about how the DSA or the PSL would react to a group of armed proletariat workers defending people from ICE. An ICE convoy rolls into the wrong neighborhood, maybe 2-3 months from now, after even more civilians have been executed by the state, after more people have been found dead or missing in these concentration camps.
So these workers eliminate the threat, I'll let you use your imagination for how that would go. But ICE is disabled and the convoy destroyed, no one is taken that day and the guerillas are able to escape.
Think about the tweets, the Instagram posts, the media correspondences. Think about how your favorite streamer would react. Think about the material wealth and position within the super structure these people would immediately want to preserve. Think about the state's repression that would come for these groups REGARDLESS OF IF THEY DISAVOW. They would disavow, disown, disengage and ultimately slander those people whom stepped up and organized that action. That is the material reality of our conditions and must be understood.
>>2657765What you are missing is the West was unexpectedly able to use colonialism and imperialism to fund workers benefits that would stave off revolution in it's own sphere. But profits continue to fall, colonialism and imperialism have fewer places to exploit and the West is now on the trajectory of being just like anywhere else. The conditions that stopped western workers from even thinking too hard about revolution is disappearing.
>>2657767You said I drew the wrong conclusions from his works but maybe you are mixing me up with someone else. So what where these wrong conclusions? What do you think I missed?
Maybe we should start getting involved in politics and embedding ourselves in activist orgs if we want any hope of a revolution in our lifetimes?
Nah nevermind doing things is adventurist I'll just continue reading.
>>2657770Oh and of course, the immediate response will be adventurism. These are adventurist tactics designed to hurt the left! We need to think about our long term electoral strategy!
It's completely a spit in the face of what Lenin spoke about in What is to Be Done, and it's a spit in the face to what Huey said.
>When the masses hear that a gestapo policeman has been executed while sipping coffee at a counter, and the revolutionary executioners fled without being traced, the masses will see the validity of this type of approach to resistance. It is not necessary to organize thirty million Black people in primary groups of two’s and three’s but it is important for the party to show the people how to go about revolution. During slavery, in which no vanguard party existed and forms of communication were severely restricted and insufficient, many slave revolts occurred. https://www.marxists.org/archive/newton/1967/07/20.htm
>The greater the spontaneous upsurge of the masses and the more widespread the movement, the more rapid, incomparably so, the demand for greater consciousness in the theoretical, political and organisational work of Social-Democracy. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/ii.htm >>2657771>The conditions that stopped western workers from even thinking too hard about revolution is disappearing.Funnily enough I think we may end up in the opposite situation in the future, since the periphery and semi-periphery have plenty of room for development under a capitalist paradigm before they run out of room for domestic growth. Any competent bourgeois government in the periphery that manages to break free from imperialism (increasingly possible in a multipolar world) could win the support of its workers through developmentalist national capitalism that improves their lives and gives them a greater stake in the existing system. In much of the global south even basic industrialization would be able to achieve this for some time. By contrast the West is already largely stagnant and has exhausted far more paths of capitalist development. It has increasingly few places to go from here.
>>2657774>and the revolutionary executioners fled without being traced, >>2657770>and the guerillas are able to escape.But they haven't done it yet. Kirk shooter and Mangione almost got away.
>>2657771>You said I drew the wrong conclusions from his works but maybe you are mixing me up with someone else. So what where these wrong conclusions? What do you think I missed?That he contradicted what I said:
>>2657706>You need to have a "left" for a civil war where the left will come out on top obviously lol. A civil war would be between the actual groups tgat exist like the chuds vs. The back to normalcy centrists, so obviously, only one of those two would win.>>2657714>Read Lenin holy shit. Siri, set a reminder for "the rupture" title: time to start doing things.
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